If you do something right, people won't know you've done anything at all. I finally realized that Richard is an excellent host, and this was a good example of that.
I installed a Takagi unit 21 years ago and it it still works great. As for maintenance I only ran a cleaning solution thru it about 5 years ago. I would recommend tankless all day long! As to why I did it, I had converted my double to a single and got rid of two hot water tanks.
I put one in and I love it. A friend put one in with a circulating pump and he said the problem is instead of waiting for hot water, he often times will turn on the cold, and it's hot and he has to wait for cold. He decided to just turn the pump off.
In my opinion I am not really a huge fan of these Tankless water heaters, here's why, There are a lot of bells and whistles on these units, I know that they don't take up a lot of space and they are efficient in many ways but, you are dealing with a lot of extra parts on this heater, the best one in my opinion is the PowerVent tank water heaters, because they have less bells and whistles and they are still energy efficient. That's only my opinion though, everyone is allowed to have an opinion.
I love our tankless. In our 6 bed, 4 bath house with dish washer and laundry we never run out of hot water. For our Airbnb that's pretty important. We have a mid-efficiency Rheem that uses about 10 - 14 therms of natural gas a month. At 40.9 cents a therm that's about $4.90 - $5.73, or $58.80 - $68.71 a year in operating costs. I shopped the net and found a new RTG-95DVLN-1 for $799.00 (shipping included and no sales tax) and installed it myself using CPVC pipe and Sharkbites to tie into the existing copper. Piece of cake. The only real challenge has been venting through the wall of the basement to the outside. The stainless steel concentric vent pipe has cost about $375.00. When the time comes to descale I've seen on UA-cam the heaters can be descaled with clear vinegar. My plumber wanted $300+ to do it. I'm of the opinion most plumbers don't understand tankless heaters and are scared of them, which would explain why they trash talk them. After 10+ years we are on our second tankless ...
I'm a plumber and that's a very biased untrue opinion. Also how do you know how much gas your unit uses each month unless that's the only thing running off of gas?
@@pauljohnson8154 how much does it cost to install this unit if you have all utilities like water and gas near it all you need to do is connect everything together..
@@bajarizo7255 it varies a lot, many times if you are replacing a gas tank type water heater your gas line is undersized for a tankless, regionally what plumbers charge changes quite a bit
No aspersion on plumbers generally, but I agree some do not want to install a tankless when the storage tank is familiar to install. I wouldn’t say they don’t understand them but several advised against one but would only say they’re “more maintenance.” Which can be true but some new ones have scale prevention.
plumbing a lot different in America then in Australia, i did plumbing for 5 years, just installed an instantaneous the other day. Only have to run 3/4 inch for the gas line to the heater, we use copper for gas pipe, and our hot lines are 1/2 inch which is all you need (our cold main lines are 3/4 inch as well). Where most people solder bends, we just use the pipe benders, and most joints are silver brazed (while some plumbers still soft solder, but not near as common, obviously not on the gas line though). But most new houses have poly pipe except the front run from the water meter to the house, the garden taps etc. I like seeing how other countries do things different.
I lived in an apartment in Korea. The tankless water heater was part of the radiant heating system, too. It's the thermal mass approach to heating, so that could add more benefit. I always had hot water very quickly.
I have a Japanese made Rinnai hot water heater. I've been quite impressed with it's performance. I don't have the recirc feature, so you do have to wait a little for the water to get hot. It's not too bad since most of my water appliances are fairly close to the heater. It's really nice not having to pay to heat water up all the time when you aren't home or not needing hot water.
But most homeowners will have to pay for installation of larger diameter gas supply lines or higher capacity electric supply, new wiring (with surge suppressor), perhaps additional vent piping unless they live in the south and want an exterior installation, regular professional descaling, etc. And, if your area is prone to power failures, there's no power for the gas igniter, so, no hot water. Many will never recoup the added expenses and would be better off just adding an insulating tank cover, if their units aren't well-insulated.
The one thing people are forgetting here is the endless hot water supply these unit provide. My Rinnai tankless unit provides endless hot water, so the days of cold showers are a thing of the past. No regular water heater can do that , excluding a boiler. And yes I have seen a big difference in the amount of money I am saving on heating water. Btw I leave in northern US.
I mean it costs few hundred bucks to heat an avg water heater yearly. Your paying how much to install this and get rid of the old unit? Around double the cost of a standard tank unit. All that for 30% cost savings on the high end? So around 100-200 bucks a year in savings? But tankless supposedly last 5 to 10 years longer then a tank unit. So you will see a return after 4-5 years. This is all of course if the tankless last longer, is 30% more efficient, all the extra connections dont need repairs and if the costs are only x2 the cost of standard. When i did some bids on my house the cost for tankless was x3 times more. In any case you should see a return after at least 6-10 years...give or take. Worth it? Idk
@@BobBob-we3wr bob we use this for decades in the netherlands and i must say the one they using is outdated the world leading brand is intergas try to get that brand. And also here the instal and machine comined is around 1300 dollars so those 4/5k prices in the states ar a rwal rip off. Ofc all house alrdy have a pipe system here in the netherlands so its only connect and tune and its done.
@@BobBob-we3wr In my view the biggest advantages to tankless are 1) unlimited shower/bath lengths and 2) direct vent. The cheap tank models use room air for combustion and have a gap between the exhaust and the chimney connect, which is a dumb way to do things--what if your bath or kitchen is just a bit too strong, or the wind is blowing the wrong way? Of course, standard efficient direct vent models do exist, but then the cost difference is almost nil.
This was fascinating. I have a tankless water heater, but I don't have one of those bronze valves you showed under the sink that circulates the water into the cold line. I need to look into that, because in our kitchen, it does take quite a while to get the hot water over to it, since it is on the opposite side of the house as the tankless water heater.
My master bath is the farthest away from my tank hot water heater. It takes a couple of minutes to get hot water to it. Maybe three. The house came with a recirculation pump. I hate the thing and simply unplugged it. Nobody takes showers at hard-defined times - good luck with narrowing that down to even an 8 hour window. So the pump would need to run all the time, driving the gas bill into the stratosphere (even in July) and it would make the tank heater work extra hard - all for the benefit of making the water less cold. You see here's the deal with the recirculation pump: All it did was make the water less cold. In no way would anyone still want to get into the shower with the less-cold water coming out of the shower head. So every bit as much water would be wasted to get the appropriately hot water to the shower - all for the benefit of a sky high gas bill and a harder working tank heater. Even if robots lived here and they took showers only at predefined times, the net result would be every bit as much water wasted, *much* more gas would be used, and the hot water heater would have to work *much* harder. Total, epic, fail.
@@gskibum I'm kind of glad you mentioned this because I am curious myself as to how to tackle that. My plumber is coming to install one but today... I'm sure you know gas is not as cheap as it was when this video was made. So I am nervous about switching from the electric hot water heater I currently have to a tankless gas water heater right now. I have well water so I'm not terribly worried about wasting 1-2 minutes to heat up my showers. I am terribly worried about wasting gas, especially in the warmer months when I normally don't have to right now. Kind of in the fence here about even switching to a gas instant hot water heater.
@@Little_Bitz Hi LilBits. I may have caused some confusion. I was talking about those recirculation pumps that are supposed to remedy the problem of wasting water because the water coming from a hot water faucet is very cold for the first spell. A real good friend of mine is an HVAC guy I trust a whole lot. He's moved on from residential work to large enterprise installs. He swears by tankless, although I suppose the choice between gas or electric comes down to the cost of electricity in your area, and how much it may increase. Where I live, gas is still the way to go.
Why would it take longer to get hot water? Does it not instantly bring it to your set temp? Also, most installations I've seen (on youtube) don't have an expansion tank...not sure why they installed one.
Richard is obviously a big fan of the tankless which no doubt has its benefits but no mention of the upfront high costs and annual service needed on the unit.
The need for annual flushing is the result of hard water; minerals in the water build up in the heating pipes. Use of a water softener practically eliminates the annual service.
We put in a Rheem unit over a year ago. In our case here in the S.F. East Bay the condensate is NOT acidic., its alkaline (4 different test kits used). The amount of condensate produced is miniscule - it evaporates from the bucket that we use to collect the condensate in - but we are only a retired couple. Though even when we had a houseful of guests last Thanksgiving the amount of condensate was not much.
I have an old school gas water-heater. I lost power for 3 days, because a neighbors tree fell on my house and truck, and tore the electrical straight from the meter socket. Even though it was winter, and the house got down to 52 at night, hot water still worked and was welcome. I don't think I will ever go with a tankless, or power-vent type water heater. (Until the government forces us, of course.) I should add, that all water faucets are at the opposite side of the house from the water heater. If I had to go tankless, I would want the tankless heater to be installed right in that area, which means running a gas line.
True! Most people install a battery backup so their tankless heater can operate a few days without power. (Some people install a small storage tank along with the tankless heater. ) Tankless and storage tank can each have their uses depending on your situation.
I just bought a house in south Milwaukee. I need to do this. Switch from electric. There is gas available but need to do the conversion. I looked for a video and this was Milwaukee! Thank you. Now to find some help
One advantage to the good ole tank style water heater is the simple fact that it contains 40-50 gallons of water. About 20 years ago I lived in an area that had a forest fire. My house was nowhere near the fire but the cities main water dept building was consumed by the fire. The supply of water to homes stopped because of it. Luckily my water heater had a special valve to prevent water from going backwards in the supply side pipe. I attached a hose to the drain valve and filled 5 gal containers. We had more than enough water to get us through until the water dept cam back online.
@@fixedguitar47 These are problems everywhere America may be developed well through the hard work people put in but these are still inconveniences that exist everywhere.
5 gallons for me at shower. I do not shower with cold water... so i save it to flush... 5 gallons adds up... wife showers separately so 10 gallons down drain daily,then the sink kitchen..
Those are awesome if someone know how to size it up properly and its water on demand not that ur faucet gets its like NOW for that u need a hot water recirculation system
I have a tankless water heater and love it. There are two issues with it which, as long as you know about them, are just fine to live with. Issue 1 - takes a while longer to get hot water is described at 7:22. Issue 2 - Consider doing dishes in the kitchen sink by hand. You turn the water on, then off, then on again, etc. Each time you turn the water off the tankless heater turns off. Then when you turn the water back on and the heater turns on too. Great! BUT some cold water sneaks through the heater before it can get hot. Thus you get a small chunk of cold water sandwiched between the hot water on either side.
cold water isnt sneaking through. there is cold water in the lines that has to get out before the heated water gets to you. terms like on demand, or instant hot water, are no longer used in the industry because of this reason. they now use the term unlimited hot water.
I'm not clear on how this is different from tank water. I've never lived anywhere where I didn't have to wait for the hot water to show up from the tank...seems the same to me in that regard since it's not like the water doesn't cool once it's in the pipes waiting on me. Thanks for sharing this - I happen to do dishes by hand but it's good to know a DW might need considerations on this.
@@lindsaywilliambrown808 - The big difference is that a tankless water heater will provide an endless amount of hot water. A tanked water will eventually run out of hot water especially if you have teenagers! The secondary benefit with tankless heaters is that they are cheaper to run as they only use energy (gas/electricity) when you are using hot water. A tanked water heater is constantly heating water even in the middle of the night, doing dishes or not, or when you are away on a week's vacation.
I've always had a big tank water heater, and I always have to wait for hot water. In Japan, I had one of these things and the hot water came on really quickly!
If only we had these guys down in Florida. Such bad work in Florida. Great info on the recirculating versions like the Rinnia RUR98iN (Natural Gas... P is Propane). Spoke with Rinnia today and these guys explained it better.
When we remodeled our master bath I added a 3/4” insulated return line to the tankless water heater...which was equipped with a bronze recirculate pump. I have a manually ( momentary) switch in the bathroom with a motion detector to press when we want to use the sink or the shower.By the time you brush your teeth the water is hot for shaving. The motion detector keeps the water circulating for several minutes for time to shower but shuts off after a couple of minutes of leaving the room. The insulated return lines reduces the amount of gas heating to keep at temperature at the preset level. This has worked great for 10 years.
1. Most average plumbers are not familiar with how to troubleshoot these when they break. 2. Youd have to have someone from the manufacturer repair it 3. They are not 100% on demand, you have body sprays, multiple showers and a lot of fixtures using hot water especially at the same time the unit cannot heat the water fast enough with the large amount of water flow. 4. Not all plumbing supply houses/hardware stores carry parts for these.
Well I guess living in america sucks then. I might as well move to europe where people actually know how to fix these things and know lots more about them then dealing with the archaic tank type water heater Btw, I live in Georgia so It's not like I moved here.
Great install, however I'm curious about the logic behind the expansion tank. As far as the expansion tank, I understand it on a closed loop system with a tank unit, but on a tankless the heat exchanger is only firing while water is flowing through the system, ie it's not locked in while heating, so why install the tank? Unless it's local code. Also, for consumers thinking about getting one, they aren't something you just plug in and forget about. They need to be descaled every year or two depending on the hardness of your water, or scale will build up in the heat exchanger or other components, which will eventually lead to leaks, sensor failures, etc. Also worth mentioning that if you opt to get a tankless with a built in recirc pump, I would reccommend descaling it more often, as that burner will be kicking on more often, and you will obv notice less savings if you are using that feature, cause most tankless units require around 400,000 BTU's of gas to fire.
Milwaukee is the only one building a lot of these specialized plumbing tools, so you will continue to see more of them in plumbing videos until other tool companies catch on.
No. The problem comes when multiple people need to take hot showers at once. Often one tank of hot water simply isn't enough. That's why it's important to have tank-less because it has unlimited hot water.
With tankless heaters, one faucet at a time gets water, others will get some and if someone else turns on a faucet, hello cold shower. For 35 bucks a year in extra energy used, ( you will spend more than that on worse things) I have a tankless heater feeding my water heater so there's. Always 30 gallons of hot water available for use. Never run out of hot water even if every faucet is on at the same time
@@billgrant2116 Not true at all, do your research. Tankless water-heaters are designed 2 ways; for amount of flow (for one or more fixtures simultaneously) and rise of temp from a specific input temp (water from the ground). If you undersize your WH because you're cheap or uneducated about what's needed for your volume or points of use, then you will def not get the results you expect. Do your homework and size your WH to your fixtures and number of uses simultaneously. Don't get the cheapest one, it never pans out
@@JB-de8ts agreed! I have the largest one available for 4 bathrooms. And we are never in the cold ever. No matter how long we have it on for. Not only that it’s about 125$ cheaper each month compared to an electric water heater. So I’m not really sure what that other guy was talking about.
They make electric ones, BUT the whole house electric tankless units need about 200 amp, that is the typical electric service to modern houses. So the electric ones aren’t very practical.
Hi, do you have an in-depth water heater (gas or electric) replacement video? I have basic knowledge of how to replace but only some of the why’s. I’d really like to know the science behind why each typical step is performed. For example: 1.shutting water off at house valve vs. cold water valve to heater. 2. opening the cold side, hot side, or midway on all fixtures to drain the system and how opening the fixtures creates vents to help drain the system. 3. How to drain the water heater gravity vs. transfer pump 4. when to know that the system is drained and your good to go to cut out heater Thanks for your great content!
Beautiful install. Love the strut brackets. Professional plumbing right there. You can tell Richard didn’t do the work on this one. M12 tubing cutter is a game changer along with the M18 pro press. M18 hole hog is awesome. Love all the beautiful Milwaukee tools. Rinnai’s are the best!
That was a Rennai? Been looking at them for 10 years as the quality seems pretty good. I still have not installed one yet because plumbing up here in Boston is so expensive... I just saw the control panel with the name...:)
Same here in NY smh plumbers are asking for $4000 up to $7000 for an install on a tankless It’s ridiculous because I already have a tankless I need a replacement and they’re charging as if I’m putting one in for the first time it’s crazy what they’re asking to put one in
@@cappz477 It's going to cost me less than $1000 for the install and the heater/fuses/tubing/6AWG. Lucky enough to know how to do it. Just as you watched this video, you can watch in-depth videos on how to do the installs for Gas/Electric Tankless units. You might be able to install it yourself if you contact your city and ask about Home Owner Permits for self renovations. It really isn't that difficult to do if you are a capable person. If you have trouble doing even basic repairs on things around the home though, you'd be better off paying more for someone qualified to do it.
i may be wrong, but i think that's called latent heat of evaporation, its a term we use in air conditioning alot, not that the waters evaporating but if the heat is exiting into the piping that heat is getting soaked by the water, which to me is a BRILLIANT solution
It is you can also do it for black pipe natural gas. The industry is changing copper in general isn't as popular as it was say 10 years ago pex is taking over. The big thing with sweating pipe is the possibility of fire, and it does happen and when it does it can take a whole framed building out.
Few year ago in Boston a plumber caused a major fire in one apartment while doing repair work soldering pipes, one fire fighter was killed. Since than permit is required to do any kind of soldering work....Pro Press is awesome.. but just a bit pricey
Update the 2nd unit at my location rental failed.. It was replaced as a rush on the weekend.. Now this is a direct replacement no repiping of gas, brackets for water lines all there.. Just a redo of dead unit..READY i got copied on the bill $3,400 usd dollars.. . I can show you the receipt if interested.. its an e mail.. How the hell can one save monies if the unit only lasts 8 years.. Then it costs 3400 to replace the unit??? Remember new gas lines had to be install on original install.. Larger for more gas flow.. But not on a reinstall replacement..
Watching This from europe, i’m thinking why don’t you use a combi heater. It heats the water. But also heats the water for the radiators trough out the house. Which you could implement to the hot air system you all seem to have in the house.
Most newer American homes use forced air HVAC systems, which accommodate air conditioning. Radiator systems aren't unheard of, but not especially common.
It just hasn’t been out long enough for installers to be comfortable with the installation yet. And only a few companies have brought that kind of tech yet.
I have a family of six and a 40 gallon tank water heater, we rarely have issues regarding running out of hot water. How long of showers does this guy’s family take?
I wish this was live on Facebook so I could have told the guy to move over 2 feet to his left so he could stand straight up. I’m 6’5” I know the struggles
In of event of catastrophic proportions if you have a tank water heater say 40 to 50 gals that would go along ways . There are ways to make a tank water heater almost instant.
Thermal Expansion tank is only required on a closed water system UPC 608.3. Newsflash: on a tankless all thermal expansion is instantly released when you open a faucet and use hot water. Basically, it's just there for looks.
Just saw this video and the expansion tank comment in the video is just plain wrong. Too bad between the two plumbing gurus, the commentary could not get it right. Consult with the manufacturer for their comments so the end result is at the same high standard we have come to expect from "Old House" videos. Tony (above) commented on this error over two years ago and yet no errata from the UA-cam provider.
I had a crossover with recirculating pump to have immediate hot water at the kitchen sink (80 feet from the heater) but uninstalled it after it caused major leaks in the copper plumbing. Turns out that the constant flow slowly eats away inside the copper until you get a pin hole leak. Any imperfection inside the pipe including solder or leftover flux are potential points for this erosion to occur. I would like to see TOH address this as it is a known issue for copper plumbing.
They have an older video on copper corrosion. They brought in an engineer with cutaway examples of various corrosion scenarios (stagnation, high velocity, flux, iron). ua-cam.com/video/nD5lMITzx_Y/v-deo.html
Ok I'm a master plumber in Texas. Tankless water heaters dont need an expansion tank. Only tank heaters need it. Tankless doesn't hold hot water. Its more of a on demand hot water. Tankless heaters work on pressure. If its above 0.06 gpm it will heat the water anything less than that it will not heat the water.
Have you ever priced a tankless water heater? They are about the same cost as a tank heater. $2,000 at the very high end...or under a grand for not so much. Considering they last 2-3 times longer, they are much cheaper overall. That's not even counting the energy savings.
Nice job on the install!! Myth the tankless water heater only heats the water on demand....the tankless runs at low heat through the heat ex changer so it isn't a shock to the system when the there is demand for hot water. The savings is so minimum between the tank and tankless hot water heaters it is not worth it to change out the system unless space is needed or the demand for hot water is high enough that the tank heater isn't keeping up with the demand for usage. The savings goes down the drain when you have to descale the tankless system and also goes away on the install. The tankless and tank hot water heaters last about the same time depending on usage, maintenance, and luck. Parts for the tankless are very expensive!!!
I f you have a whole house gas-fired backup generator installed, make sure the guy Generac or Kohler sends out has the knowledge to assess whether the gas supply can run the generator, your gas furnaces, AND an instantaneous water heater simultaneously.
30% energy savings is a myth. you end up spending that money on annual maintenance of this unit that you don't have with the tank. tankless systems need to be flushed at least annually, if not more often, depending on how hard your water is. I personally have never had a hot water tank fail before 15 years so replacing them every 5-10 years is also a myth. your tankless water heater will last longer but only 20-25 years (with proper maintenance) and cost a lot more to replace when it fails. All that said, it does provide endless hot water compared to a tank which will run out unless you buy one big enough for your family needs. And that takes up space a lot of us do not have to lose.
When I look at the code for installing gas appliances, I believe the sediment trap should be installed directly below the vertical gas line, rather than at a 90 degree horizontal tee feed as shown here.
You also need a condensate drain, more than likely a bigger gas line because typically if you're going from a 40-gallon but water heater gas line will not be sufficient enough for tankless. Tankless water heater takes about takes about two 100000 BTUs. Not to mention that you will need to install a special flue pipe. Also you will not be able to have hot water if the power goes out and you do not have a generator. Standard atmospheric water heaters have a thermocouple or a thermo-pile generator that does not require it's own Electric
That was my question lol and I didn't find the answer. People don't realize that type can make the cold water supply much warmer by making the hot water be ready on demand.
I was thinking that sounded backwards when he said it. You'd have to have the cold incoming water chilling the pipes to get the condensation, while essentially pre-heating the water before it goes into the main heat exchanger.
Lol this person is very fortunate to have all that space to work with. My water heater is in a very small area and is a lot more difficult to work with,
I still think tank water heaters are better, we have never had issues with hot waters. We can have 3 showers on at the same time for as long as they want. A better alternative to save money would be the heaters that go directly on the shower faucet.
> We can have 3 showers on at the same time for as long as they want That can only happen if your incoming water temperature is very high, you have drainwater heat recovery at every shower, have a *very* large tank (>100 gallons) or a high output tank (e.g. AO Smith Vertex), "as long as you want" being really short, or some combination of the above.
What about the electrical connection? Why no mention of that? What gauge wire do I need? If it's a 240v can I use 14/3 with two 120v lines and one common?
The explanation of it’s functioning is appreciated, but has to be back to front. The water can’t flow through the condenser _after_ it’s been through the heat exchanger - a) the gasses are then lukewarm, and b) the water is hot, so you get no condensing. The cold water actually flows in the opposite directly from the hot gasses. That way the lukewarm exhaust gas encounters cold water. It condenses and slightly warms the water, which then passes through the heat exchanger. Thanks for the video - agree with others with would have been good to actually see the installation, considering the title of the video.
With the re-circulation setup, you're kind of losing much of the benefit of a tankless system, as you end up creating a small and often poorly insulated tanked hot water system. If you're looking at going to a tankless hot water, then it is a good idea to strongly consider a short-run system instead of a central re-circulation. That is, don't have a heater in the basement, put it under the sink, or in the wall behind the shower, and minimize the distance between the heater and where you're actually using the hot water. (Yes, this can be difficult to retrofit in some homes, but it is a small concession in design to keep in mind if you're doing new construction or major renovations.) Sitting down to evaluate your options may mean you're going with multiple smaller on-demand heaters spread around a home to come out with the most cost effective and efficient system.
While you can set it to help limit how much efficiency you lose over the course of a full day, you will still be hard pressed to get the same overall efficiency in a re-circulator setup as you will in a short-run tankless. If nothing else you should remember to be very careful to properly insulate your hot water runs and keep them isolated from heat sinks, and ideally use a system that can auto inspect the crossover valve usage - You really don't want your tankless system trying to keep up if that valve jams open. Not sure how common they are on mainstream commercial hardware, but I for one get a bit of a kick out of things like heating systems that can email me a monthly report, or send out an 'emergency' email if it detects something weird going on with itself.
I agree, can't beat the shortest run but if your lines are Super insulated, and they can be, I know because I was a Union Pipe insulator for 13yrs on commercial buildings, you can keep your losses down to about 6% over a 100ft run. And those one-way valves that go under the sink that he used are pretty much fail proof and work for decades with no problems.
perhaps you can help me understand how the recirculate pump can push thru the cold water side when my street pressure is 62#..it still takes .a long time to receive the hot water 60 ft away from the water heater.
I dunno about longevity. We moved into a 'new' cabin in Northern Michigan that had been sitting for awhile from a previous owner dispute with the contractor, that had one of these on-demand water heaters installed. We fired it up and used it for two years before it failed and leaked all over the utility room. Opening it up, the fins had completely degraded and turned to grit. We had to have it rebuilt to get hot water again. I wonder about the stagnate cold water being able to flow against well water pump (or municipal cold pump) back down the cold against the main flow for it wind up back down at the on-demand for reheating in the basement, unless there's a dedicated return tube apart from the main line. Prior to the cabin, my landlord had a recirculator system installed to bring hot water to the second floor flat on a timer to conserve water. Instead, it kept the hot line under tremendous constant pressure that eventually wore out some of the seals around the fixtures, both in the bathroom and the kitchen sink a few rooms away! We were changing O-rings constantly to stop the drips, not to mention the pressure in the hot line made resident water spit under pressure in the hot line, until relieved and normal flow resumed. He eventually just shut the timer off and we let the water run until warm enough to jump in. In our situation the promise of 'recirculation back to the on demand pump' was more of a marketing idea than a practical reality. But that was 2010 so maybe things have changed since then.
This high-efficiency model requires a condensate drain, intake/exhaust pipes through the wall, separate control unit, etc. There are much cheaper instantaneous water heater units that will vent up through a chimney like your old tank unit, do not require a special combustion air intake, and produce no condensate. They have no standing pilot, so they use no gas until hot water is called for. Cost is much less, also. You can check eBay for various models like this.
The absolute cheapest venting for tankless is high efficiency that use PVC! If you reuse old style vent on ANY tankless you’re going to dissolve your chimney from the inside out.
Also a draw back on tankless hot water. The enemy to these systems is hard water. You must descale every 6 months if you don’t have soft water. There’s a process that has to be done that was not mentioned.
I live in Italy, we have hard water and i had a tankless water heater since 2001. the only thing that we have to do is call someone to check the heater every year to check the parts and if everything is ok
My house has water lines for one large geyser (with tank). Now I installed tankless water heater for all the bathrooms and kitchen. Now, none of the new heaters are working.
Most efficient way would be to have small hot water heaters near each fixture that demands hot water. I believe other countries tend to do it that way (for example, have a small unit above the shower head dedicated to heating shower water etc)
yeah it is not needed, he even pointed to the same valve that will release the preassure IF it gets too high... *rolls eyes* and the circulation trick is not needed either, even with a tank heater you need to wait for the hot water to arrive at the faucet, no change there AT ALL. Running circulation just means you heat water that will then just cool down in the pipes afterwards anyways + needing expensive valves + a pump... The tankless heater is plenty enough
@@LiLBitsDK if u got a big system allot of radiators and piping u need 1. Else u can refill the closed system everytime after ur heated ur house because the presure difference is so big between heating and not heating. the automatic valve will spit out so much when ur heating that when the system is cold after heating the pressure in the closed system dropped way too much.
I was on a housecall last month and witnessed a HotPoint water heater from 1948 still up n running fine!
How the hell?
@@Joshuam808. Yeah bro the manual was still sitting on top of it haha
What the hell you on instagram?
If you do something right, people won't know you've done anything at all. I finally realized that Richard is an excellent host, and this was a good example of that.
I installed a Takagi unit 21 years ago and it it still works great. As for maintenance I only ran a cleaning solution thru it about 5 years ago. I would recommend tankless all day long! As to why I did it, I had converted my double to a single and got rid of two hot water tanks.
Thank you so much - that's exactly what I was wondering - how to maintain it!
I put one in and I love it. A friend put one in with a circulating pump and he said the problem is instead of waiting for hot water, he often times will turn on the cold, and it's hot and he has to wait for cold. He decided to just turn the pump off.
There must be a problem with the bridge valve.
As a master plumber in Texas i love how they installed the service valves
I'm in Texas and need a master plumber! Wish TX wasn't so big or that there was a way to reach folks on here!
I'm really glad he took the time to explain all the issues with these type of units and the solutions for the issues. Very nice video.
In my opinion I am not really a huge fan of these Tankless water heaters, here's why, There are a lot of bells and whistles on these units, I know that they don't take up a lot of space and they are efficient in many ways but, you are dealing with a lot of extra parts on this heater, the best one in my opinion is the PowerVent tank water heaters, because they have less bells and whistles and they are still energy efficient. That's only my opinion though, everyone is allowed to have an opinion.
It’s a tankless job but someone’s got to do it 🤠
good one shaggie
I love our tankless. In our 6 bed, 4 bath house with dish washer and laundry we never run out of hot water. For our Airbnb that's pretty important. We have a mid-efficiency Rheem that uses about 10 - 14 therms of natural gas a month. At 40.9 cents a therm that's about $4.90 - $5.73, or $58.80 - $68.71 a year in operating costs. I shopped the net and found a new RTG-95DVLN-1 for $799.00 (shipping included and no sales tax) and installed it myself using CPVC pipe and Sharkbites to tie into the existing copper. Piece of cake. The only real challenge has been venting through the wall of the basement to the outside. The stainless steel concentric vent pipe has cost about $375.00. When the time comes to descale I've seen on UA-cam the heaters can be descaled with clear vinegar. My plumber wanted $300+ to do it. I'm of the opinion most plumbers don't understand tankless heaters and are scared of them, which would explain why they trash talk them. After 10+ years we are on our second tankless ...
I'm a plumber and that's a very biased untrue opinion. Also how do you know how much gas your unit uses each month unless that's the only thing running off of gas?
@@pauljohnson8154 how much does it cost to install this unit if you have all utilities like water and gas near it all you need to do is connect everything together..
@@bajarizo7255 it varies a lot, many times if you are replacing a gas tank type water heater your gas line is undersized for a tankless, regionally what plumbers charge changes quite a bit
No aspersion on plumbers generally, but I agree some do not want to install a tankless when the storage tank is familiar to install. I wouldn’t say they don’t understand them but several advised against one but would only say they’re “more maintenance.” Which can be true but some new ones have scale prevention.
plumbing a lot different in America then in Australia, i did plumbing for 5 years, just installed an instantaneous the other day. Only have to run 3/4 inch for the gas line to the heater, we use copper for gas pipe, and our hot lines are 1/2 inch which is all you need (our cold main lines are 3/4 inch as well). Where most people solder bends, we just use the pipe benders, and most joints are silver brazed (while some plumbers still soft solder, but not near as common, obviously not on the gas line though). But most new houses have poly pipe except the front run from the water meter to the house, the garden taps etc. I like seeing how other countries do things different.
I lived in an apartment in Korea. The tankless water heater was part of the radiant heating system, too. It's the thermal mass approach to heating, so that could add more benefit. I always had hot water very quickly.
👍
I saw that on a build of a cabin. Great idea!
I have a Japanese made Rinnai hot water heater. I've been quite impressed with it's performance. I don't have the recirc feature, so you do have to wait a little for the water to get hot. It's not too bad since most of my water appliances are fairly close to the heater. It's really nice not having to pay to heat water up all the time when you aren't home or not needing hot water.
an not paying the gas company it keep the hot water on
I have to wait for hot water to get from my tank to my tap anyway, so what's the difference in that?
But most homeowners will have to pay for installation of larger diameter gas supply lines or higher capacity electric supply, new wiring (with surge suppressor), perhaps additional vent piping unless they live in the south and want an exterior installation, regular professional descaling, etc. And, if your area is prone to power failures, there's no power for the gas igniter, so, no hot water. Many will never recoup the added expenses and would be better off just adding an insulating tank cover, if their units aren't well-insulated.
wholeNwon I believe there is a pilot flame in some of them same as a tank style water heater
I'm not aware of any. Maybe you can provide an example. The nature of a tankless design might make it impractical.
I love the nice music while they work. When I do things, there is swearing, smashed thumbs, gouged hands !!!!
😂 you sound like me.
The one thing people are forgetting here is the endless hot water supply these unit provide. My Rinnai tankless unit provides endless hot water, so the days of cold showers are a thing of the past. No regular water heater can do that , excluding a boiler. And yes I have seen a big difference in the amount of money I am saving on heating water. Btw I leave in northern US.
I mean it costs few hundred bucks to heat an avg water heater yearly. Your paying how much to install this and get rid of the old unit? Around double the cost of a standard tank unit. All that for 30% cost savings on the high end? So around 100-200 bucks a year in savings? But tankless supposedly last 5 to 10 years longer then a tank unit. So you will see a return after 4-5 years. This is all of course if the tankless last longer, is 30% more efficient, all the extra connections dont need repairs and if the costs are only x2 the cost of standard. When i did some bids on my house the cost for tankless was x3 times more. In any case you should see a return after at least 6-10 years...give or take. Worth it? Idk
@@BobBob-we3wr bob we use this for decades in the netherlands and i must say the one they using is outdated the world leading brand is intergas try to get that brand.
And also here the instal and machine comined is around 1300 dollars so those 4/5k prices in the states ar a rwal rip off.
Ofc all house alrdy have a pipe system here in the netherlands so its only connect and tune and its done.
@@BobBob-we3wr In my view the biggest advantages to tankless are 1) unlimited shower/bath lengths and 2) direct vent. The cheap tank models use room air for combustion and have a gap between the exhaust and the chimney connect, which is a dumb way to do things--what if your bath or kitchen is just a bit too strong, or the wind is blowing the wrong way? Of course, standard efficient direct vent models do exist, but then the cost difference is almost nil.
This was fascinating. I have a tankless water heater, but I don't have one of those bronze valves you showed under the sink that circulates the water into the cold line. I need to look into that, because in our kitchen, it does take quite a while to get the hot water over to it, since it is on the opposite side of the house as the tankless water heater.
Bruce A. Ulrich that tankless has a built in pump as well
My master bath is the farthest away from my tank hot water heater. It takes a couple of minutes to get hot water to it. Maybe three.
The house came with a recirculation pump. I hate the thing and simply unplugged it. Nobody takes showers at hard-defined times - good luck with narrowing that down to even an 8 hour window. So the pump would need to run all the time, driving the gas bill into the stratosphere (even in July) and it would make the tank heater work extra hard - all for the benefit of making the water less cold.
You see here's the deal with the recirculation pump: All it did was make the water less cold. In no way would anyone still want to get into the shower with the less-cold water coming out of the shower head. So every bit as much water would be wasted to get the appropriately hot water to the shower - all for the benefit of a sky high gas bill and a harder working tank heater.
Even if robots lived here and they took showers only at predefined times, the net result would be every bit as much water wasted, *much* more gas would be used, and the hot water heater would have to work *much* harder.
Total, epic, fail.
@@gskibum I'm kind of glad you mentioned this because I am curious myself as to how to tackle that. My plumber is coming to install one but today... I'm sure you know gas is not as cheap as it was when this video was made. So I am nervous about switching from the electric hot water heater I currently have to a tankless gas water heater right now. I have well water so I'm not terribly worried about wasting 1-2 minutes to heat up my showers. I am terribly worried about wasting gas, especially in the warmer months when I normally don't have to right now. Kind of in the fence here about even switching to a gas instant hot water heater.
@@Little_Bitz Hi LilBits. I may have caused some confusion. I was talking about those recirculation pumps that are supposed to remedy the problem of wasting water because the water coming from a hot water faucet is very cold for the first spell.
A real good friend of mine is an HVAC guy I trust a whole lot. He's moved on from residential work to large enterprise installs. He swears by tankless, although I suppose the choice between gas or electric comes down to the cost of electricity in your area, and how much it may increase.
Where I live, gas is still the way to go.
Why would it take longer to get hot water? Does it not instantly bring it to your set temp? Also, most installations I've seen (on youtube) don't have an expansion tank...not sure why they installed one.
My favorite part was them looking each other in the eye while asking if it feels good fondling the water
LOL
I eat eggs
Richard is obviously a big fan of the tankless which no doubt has its benefits but no mention of the upfront high costs and annual service needed on the unit.
The need for annual flushing is the result of hard water; minerals in the water build up in the heating pipes. Use of a water softener practically eliminates the annual service.
Fair. Poor people are not the people whose houses are getting worked on on TOH, that's for sure :D
8:44 This man's sense of humor is always great
We put in a Rheem unit over a year ago. In our case here in the S.F. East Bay the condensate is NOT acidic., its alkaline (4 different test kits used). The amount of condensate produced is miniscule - it evaporates from the bucket that we use to collect the condensate in - but we are only a retired couple. Though even when we had a houseful of guests last Thanksgiving the amount of condensate was not much.
I have an old school gas water-heater.
I lost power for 3 days, because a neighbors tree fell on my house and truck, and tore the electrical straight from the meter socket.
Even though it was winter, and the house got down to 52 at night, hot water still worked and was welcome.
I don't think I will ever go with a tankless, or power-vent type water heater.
(Until the government forces us, of course.)
I should add, that all water faucets are at the opposite side of the house from the water heater.
If I had to go tankless, I would want the tankless heater to be installed right in that area, which means running a gas line.
In a really bad situation the water in a water heater can be used as a water source.
True! Most people install a battery backup so their tankless heater can operate a few days without power. (Some people install a small storage tank along with the tankless heater. ) Tankless and storage tank can each have their uses depending on your situation.
I just bought a house in south Milwaukee. I need to do this. Switch from electric. There is gas available but need to do the conversion. I looked for a video and this was Milwaukee! Thank you. Now to find some help
One advantage to the good ole tank style water heater is the simple fact that it contains 40-50 gallons of water. About 20 years ago I lived in an area that had a forest fire. My house was nowhere near the fire but the cities main water dept building was consumed by the fire. The supply of water to homes stopped because of it. Luckily my water heater had a special valve to prevent water from going backwards in the supply side pipe. I attached a hose to the drain valve and filled 5 gal containers. We had more than enough water to get us through until the water dept cam back online.
I don't understand the complaint about waiting for hot water. I have a water tank now and I have to wait for hot water when I turn the faucet on.
@@fixedguitar47 These are problems everywhere America may be developed well through the hard work people put in but these are still inconveniences that exist everywhere.
5 gallons for me at shower. I do not shower with cold water... so i save it to flush... 5 gallons adds up... wife showers separately so 10 gallons down drain daily,then the sink kitchen..
Those are awesome if someone know how to size it up properly and its water on demand not that ur faucet gets its like NOW for that u need a hot water recirculation system
@@fixedguitar47 i know im a plumber but alot of plumbers dont know how to size it up properly thats why ppl complain
I don't think it's meant to be a complaint as much as I think people believe tankless means instant. I think they could say it better though.
Dude, it's a tankless job but somebody's gotta do it.
ericlogos I see this exact comment on just about every tankless water heater video lol. By the way you’re welcome lol
Don't get me started!!!
Prepperjon hahahahaha
Ha! Get it?
Lol 🤣🤣🤣
Gracias muchachos!!! I am getting a tankless water heater, I trust you all.
I have a tankless water heater and love it. There are two issues with it which, as long as you know about them, are just fine to live with. Issue 1 - takes a while longer to get hot water is described at 7:22. Issue 2 - Consider doing dishes in the kitchen sink by hand. You turn the water on, then off, then on again, etc. Each time you turn the water off the tankless heater turns off. Then when you turn the water back on and the heater turns on too. Great! BUT some cold water sneaks through the heater before it can get hot. Thus you get a small chunk of cold water sandwiched between the hot water on either side.
cold water isnt sneaking through. there is cold water in the lines that has to get out before the heated water gets to you. terms like on demand, or instant hot water, are no longer used in the industry because of this reason. they now use the term unlimited hot water.
I'm not clear on how this is different from tank water. I've never lived anywhere where I didn't have to wait for the hot water to show up from the tank...seems the same to me in that regard since it's not like the water doesn't cool once it's in the pipes waiting on me. Thanks for sharing this - I happen to do dishes by hand but it's good to know a DW might need considerations on this.
@@lindsaywilliambrown808 - The big difference is that a tankless water heater will provide an endless amount of hot water. A tanked water will eventually run out of hot water especially if you have teenagers! The secondary benefit with tankless heaters is that they are cheaper to run as they only use energy (gas/electricity) when you are using hot water. A tanked water heater is constantly heating water even in the middle of the night, doing dishes or not, or when you are away on a week's vacation.
I've always had a big tank water heater, and I always have to wait for hot water. In Japan, I had one of these things and the hot water came on really quickly!
I love it when Richard puts on his glasses
If only we had these guys down in Florida. Such bad work in Florida. Great info on the recirculating versions like the Rinnia RUR98iN (Natural Gas... P is Propane). Spoke with Rinnia today and these guys explained it better.
Very clean good looking install on that tankless water heater. I also like the zip ties under the sink to hold everything neatly together.
When we remodeled our master bath I added a 3/4” insulated return line to the tankless water heater...which was equipped with a bronze recirculate pump. I have a manually ( momentary) switch in the bathroom with a motion detector to press when we want to use the sink or the shower.By the time you brush your teeth the water is hot for shaving. The motion detector keeps the water circulating for several minutes for time to shower but shuts off after a couple of minutes of leaving the room. The insulated return lines reduces the amount of gas heating to keep at temperature at the preset level. This has worked great for 10 years.
1. Most average plumbers are not familiar with how to troubleshoot these when they break.
2. Youd have to have someone from the manufacturer repair it
3. They are not 100% on demand, you have body sprays, multiple showers and a lot of fixtures using hot water especially at the same time the unit cannot heat the water fast enough with the large amount of water flow.
4. Not all plumbing supply houses/hardware stores carry parts for these.
electric tankless water heater not gonna keep up with demand but gas will, in the regular size homes. Also you can put 2 of them
Well I guess living in america sucks then. I might as well move to europe where people actually know how to fix these things and know lots more about them then dealing with the archaic tank type water heater
Btw, I live in Georgia so It's not like I moved here.
We love Richard. Always.
Richard Trethewey is pro. I always walk away with some excellent life learning info, about plumbing that is valuable for homeowner.
He Richard installed my viessman boiler NEVER HAD ANY Problems. NUFF SAID.
Viessman good
Thanks! This really helped me in my decision to go tankless.
Great install, however I'm curious about the logic behind the expansion tank. As far as the expansion tank, I understand it on a closed loop system with a tank unit, but on a tankless the heat exchanger is only firing while water is flowing through the system, ie it's not locked in while heating, so why install the tank? Unless it's local code. Also, for consumers thinking about getting one, they aren't something you just plug in and forget about. They need to be descaled every year or two depending on the hardness of your water, or scale will build up in the heat exchanger or other components, which will eventually lead to leaks, sensor failures, etc. Also worth mentioning that if you opt to get a tankless with a built in recirc pump, I would reccommend descaling it more often, as that burner will be kicking on more often, and you will obv notice less savings if you are using that feature, cause most tankless units require around 400,000 BTU's of gas to fire.
Looks Like Milwaukee is now sponsoring This Old House? See a lot of their tools in this video they are great for plumbers though.
Well the job was done in Milwaukee soooo Milwaukee tools ;)
chillywilly3610 too bad their tools are made in China
Milwaukee is the only one building a lot of these specialized plumbing tools, so you will continue to see more of them in plumbing videos until other tool companies catch on.
True but usually brands that don't have a sponsorship with TOH have the logos' covered.
Aaaa
My water heater was made in 4/77 A Jackson heater and still works great
You have to wait for hot water on either Tankless or Standard water heater some people just like to fuss.
No. The problem comes when multiple people need to take hot showers at once. Often one tank of hot water simply isn't enough. That's why it's important to have tank-less because it has unlimited hot water.
With tankless heaters, one faucet at a time gets water, others will get some and if someone else turns on a faucet, hello cold shower. For 35 bucks a year in extra energy used, ( you will spend more than that on worse things) I have a tankless heater feeding my water heater so there's. Always 30 gallons of hot water available for use. Never run out of hot water even if every faucet is on at the same time
@@billgrant2116 was that complicated to combine
?
@@billgrant2116 Not true at all, do your research. Tankless water-heaters are designed 2 ways; for amount of flow (for one or more fixtures simultaneously) and rise of temp from a specific input temp (water from the ground). If you undersize your WH because you're cheap or uneducated about what's needed for your volume or points of use, then you will def not get the results you expect. Do your homework and size your WH to your fixtures and number of uses simultaneously. Don't get the cheapest one, it never pans out
@@JB-de8ts agreed! I have the largest one available for 4 bathrooms. And we are never in the cold ever. No matter how long we have it on for. Not only that it’s about 125$ cheaper each month compared to an electric water heater. So I’m not really sure what that other guy was talking about.
I liked the cross over valve, but can't find any on line. The other thing I wondered about is the use of teflon tape for gas piping?
Can these be used if you don't have gas?
I believe they do have electric options, fundamentally the same, just running on electric
Thank you
I had the same question. I must invest in one of these.
They make electric ones, BUT the whole house electric tankless units need about 200 amp, that is the typical electric service to modern houses. So the electric ones aren’t very practical.
It takes about as much electricity as running a 3.5ton HVAC... Not very energy efficient.
Hi, do you have an in-depth water heater (gas or electric) replacement video? I have basic knowledge of how to replace but only some of the why’s.
I’d really like to know the science behind why each typical step is performed. For example:
1.shutting water off at house valve vs. cold water valve to heater.
2. opening the cold side, hot side, or midway on all fixtures to drain the system and how opening the fixtures creates vents to help drain the system.
3. How to drain the water heater gravity vs. transfer pump
4. when to know that the system is drained and your good to go to cut out heater
Thanks for your great content!
Beautiful install. Love the strut brackets. Professional plumbing right there. You can tell Richard didn’t do the work on this one. M12 tubing cutter is a game changer along with the M18 pro press. M18 hole hog is awesome. Love all the beautiful Milwaukee tools. Rinnai’s are the best!
This unit had a copper heat exchanger though. Very susceptible to bad water issues. Stainless is better.
That was a Rennai? Been looking at them for 10 years as the quality seems pretty good. I still have not installed one yet because plumbing up here in Boston is so expensive... I just saw the control panel with the name...:)
Same here in NY smh plumbers are asking for
$4000 up to $7000 for an install on a tankless
It’s ridiculous because I already have a tankless I need a replacement and they’re charging as if I’m putting one in for the first time it’s crazy what they’re asking to put one in
That's pretty cheap considering you guys live in a high cost area here in idaho. It costs $10,000, not even done by licensed plumbers 😢😢😢
@@cappz477 It's going to cost me less than $1000 for the install and the heater/fuses/tubing/6AWG. Lucky enough to know how to do it. Just as you watched this video, you can watch in-depth videos on how to do the installs for Gas/Electric Tankless units. You might be able to install it yourself if you contact your city and ask about Home Owner Permits for self renovations. It really isn't that difficult to do if you are a capable person.
If you have trouble doing even basic repairs on things around the home though, you'd be better off paying more for someone qualified to do it.
i may be wrong, but i think that's called latent heat of evaporation, its a term we use in air conditioning alot, not that the waters evaporating but if the heat is exiting into the piping that heat is getting soaked by the water, which to me is a BRILLIANT solution
Crimping copper fittings instead of sweating?
Phil Scar That's the new way. He has a video on it.
Yep pro press is the future in copper its required in some commercial construction now
Really! Who would have thought a crimp connection would replace a legendary but true and tested method of a sweated connection.
It is you can also do it for black pipe natural gas. The industry is changing copper in general isn't as popular as it was say 10 years ago pex is taking over. The big thing with sweating pipe is the possibility of fire, and it does happen and when it does it can take a whole framed building out.
Few year ago in Boston a plumber caused a major fire in one apartment while doing repair work soldering pipes, one fire fighter was killed. Since than permit is required to do any kind of soldering work....Pro Press is awesome.. but just a bit pricey
Update the 2nd unit at my location rental failed.. It was replaced as a rush on the weekend.. Now this is a direct replacement no repiping of gas, brackets for water lines all there.. Just a redo of dead unit..READY i got copied on the bill $3,400 usd dollars.. . I can show you the receipt if interested.. its an e mail.. How the hell can one save monies if the unit only lasts 8 years.. Then it costs 3400 to replace the unit??? Remember new gas lines had to be install on original install.. Larger for more gas flow.. But not on a reinstall replacement..
Watching This from europe, i’m thinking why don’t you use a combi heater. It heats the water. But also heats the water for the radiators trough out the house. Which you could implement to the hot air system you all seem to have in the house.
J.D. Willemsen just like feet and inches they like to use archaic methods.
Most newer American homes use forced air HVAC systems, which accommodate air conditioning. Radiator systems aren't unheard of, but not especially common.
Sup3rFly88 imperial is better than metric in every single real world application
It just hasn’t been out long enough for installers to be comfortable with the installation yet. And only a few companies have brought that kind of tech yet.
what radiators are you talking about, this has forced central air and natural gas heat
I have a family of six and a 40 gallon tank water heater, we rarely have issues regarding running out of hot water. How long of showers does this guy’s family take?
I wish this was live on Facebook so I could have told the guy to move over 2 feet to his left so he could stand straight up. I’m 6’5” I know the struggles
that recirculation explanation at the end blew my mind!
He does a great job explaining. I finally understand it without being a plumber.
yes but it doesnt work.how can it recirculate when its pushinh against 62# of street pressure.
In of event of catastrophic proportions if you have a tank water heater say 40 to 50 gals that would go along ways . There are ways to make a tank water heater almost instant.
Thermal Expansion tank is only required on a closed water system UPC 608.3. Newsflash: on a tankless all thermal expansion is instantly released when you open a faucet and use hot water. Basically, it's just there for looks.
Just saw this video and the expansion tank comment in the video is just plain wrong. Too bad between the two plumbing gurus, the commentary could not get it right. Consult with the manufacturer for their comments so the end result is at the same high standard we have come to expect from "Old House" videos. Tony (above) commented on this error over two years ago and yet no errata from the UA-cam provider.
I had a crossover with recirculating pump to have immediate hot water at the kitchen sink (80 feet from the heater) but uninstalled it after it caused major leaks in the copper plumbing. Turns out that the constant flow slowly eats away inside the copper until you get a pin hole leak. Any imperfection inside the pipe including solder or leftover flux are potential points for this erosion to occur. I would like to see TOH address this as it is a known issue for copper plumbing.
They have an older video on copper corrosion. They brought in an engineer with cutaway examples of various corrosion scenarios (stagnation, high velocity, flux, iron).
ua-cam.com/video/nD5lMITzx_Y/v-deo.html
Very interesting. Thanks for the addition.
Ok I'm a master plumber in Texas. Tankless water heaters dont need an expansion tank. Only tank heaters need it. Tankless doesn't hold hot water. Its more of a on demand hot water. Tankless heaters work on pressure. If its above 0.06 gpm it will heat the water anything less than that it will not heat the water.
But if you have a recirculating pump, it heats the water even when is not demanded and is practically stored in the pipes
WORKS GREAT, 5000 DOLLARS LATER !
Have you ever priced a tankless water heater? They are about the same cost as a tank heater. $2,000 at the very high end...or under a grand for not so much. Considering they last 2-3 times longer, they are much cheaper overall. That's not even counting the energy savings.
Don’t forget the labor cost, unless you are DIY
Most manufacturers are now coming out with models that can use 1/2" gas lines which makes installation easier than easy.
I like how they touched hands at the end.
I just installed a 50 gallon low profile, Minnesota code is pipe insulation only on hot water side, on his old one it was on both...
Nice job on the install!! Myth the tankless water heater only heats the water on demand....the tankless runs at low heat through the heat ex changer so it isn't a shock to the system when the there is demand for hot water. The savings is so minimum between the tank and tankless hot water heaters it is not worth it to change out the system unless space is needed or the demand for hot water is high enough that the tank heater isn't keeping up with the demand for usage. The savings goes down the drain when you have to descale the tankless system and also goes away on the install. The tankless and tank hot water heaters last about the same time depending on usage, maintenance, and luck. Parts for the tankless are very expensive!!!
He did the great job for install the new water heater.
I f you have a whole house gas-fired backup generator installed, make sure the guy Generac or Kohler sends out has the knowledge to assess whether the gas supply can run the generator, your gas furnaces, AND an instantaneous water heater simultaneously.
30% energy savings is a myth. you end up spending that money on annual maintenance of this unit that you don't have with the tank. tankless systems need to be flushed at least annually, if not more often, depending on how hard your water is. I personally have never had a hot water tank fail before 15 years so replacing them every 5-10 years is also a myth. your tankless water heater will last longer but only 20-25 years (with proper maintenance) and cost a lot more to replace when it fails. All that said, it does provide endless hot water compared to a tank which will run out unless you buy one big enough for your family needs. And that takes up space a lot of us do not have to lose.
When I look at the code for installing gas appliances, I believe the sediment trap should be installed directly below the vertical gas line, rather than at a 90 degree horizontal tee feed as shown here.
You also need a condensate drain, more than likely a bigger gas line because typically if you're going from a 40-gallon but water heater gas line will not be sufficient enough for tankless. Tankless water heater takes about takes about two 100000 BTUs. Not to mention that you will need to install a special flue pipe. Also you will not be able to have hot water if the power goes out and you do not have a generator. Standard atmospheric water heaters have a thermocouple or a thermo-pile generator that does not require it's own Electric
A 3/4 inch CSST gas line is easy to install off of a Tee. The exhaust just uses PVC pipe and goes right out the window or wall.
🤔 how did he installed it. Because all I got was an overview.
Need to be licensed. You could blow up the block if you don’t know what your doing..
The real lesson here is, pay $5k to have it done.
Question about the circulating valve. Do you need return line and does it work on conventional water heaters.
That was my question lol and I didn't find the answer. People don't realize that type can make the cold water supply much warmer by making the hot water be ready on demand.
Water actually goes through the condensing heat exchanger first then the copper heat exchanger, it's more efficient that way
I was thinking that sounded backwards when he said it. You'd have to have the cold incoming water chilling the pipes to get the condensation, while essentially pre-heating the water before it goes into the main heat exchanger.
Immaculate clean work
What's with the complaints about waiting for hot water? You have to wait with any water heater, tank or not.
@peter d
You're grammar makes no sense.
I would like to add recirculation valves under a few sinks and a shower, do I need to add an expansion tank as well?
Excellent video I loved this, very useful!
Surprised to see you here
@@answernotfound5278 I enjoy these videos as much as making them
I enjoy your lawn videos and your grass, in the summer, Is just beautiful!
@@SilverCymbal I think your lawn in the summer is so beautiful
@@answernotfound5278 I really appreciate that. Lots more stuff coming this Spring & Summer too
Lol this person is very fortunate to have all that space to work with. My water heater is in a very small area and is a lot more difficult to work with,
I still think tank water heaters are better, we have never had issues with hot waters. We can have 3 showers on at the same time for as long as they want. A better alternative to save money would be the heaters that go directly on the shower faucet.
Me too
> We can have 3 showers on at the same time for as long as they want
That can only happen if your incoming water temperature is very high, you have drainwater heat recovery at every shower, have a *very* large tank (>100 gallons) or a high output tank (e.g. AO Smith Vertex), "as long as you want" being really short, or some combination of the above.
What about the electrical connection? Why no mention of that? What gauge wire do I need? If it's a 240v can I use 14/3 with two 120v lines and one common?
He didn't exactly show how to install it. He just installs it. With little to no explanation.
This really isn't a diy type project. This is more of a general overview on what goes on with an install.
The earlier seasons were better but installing a natural gas tankless water heater is out of the scope for most diy people.
Haha right! 5 min of history, 2 min montage of installation and 3 min of how it’ll make the house better
yeah and he uses a pro press, which 99.9% of DIYers dont own
We rented one at our local hardware store, if that helps you.
I live in Italy and this is the main system that we adopt for hot water.
The explanation of it’s functioning is appreciated, but has to be back to front. The water can’t flow through the condenser _after_ it’s been through the heat exchanger - a) the gasses are then lukewarm, and b) the water is hot, so you get no condensing. The cold water actually flows in the opposite directly from the hot gasses. That way the lukewarm exhaust gas encounters cold water. It condenses and slightly warms the water, which then passes through the heat exchanger.
Thanks for the video - agree with others with would have been good to actually see the installation, considering the title of the video.
I don't understand the expansion tank? I've see it in a lot of newer homes but I have never seen it in the older homes, even with new water heaters.
With the re-circulation setup, you're kind of losing much of the benefit of a tankless system, as you end up creating a small and often poorly insulated tanked hot water system.
If you're looking at going to a tankless hot water, then it is a good idea to strongly consider a short-run system instead of a central re-circulation. That is, don't have a heater in the basement, put it under the sink, or in the wall behind the shower, and minimize the distance between the heater and where you're actually using the hot water. (Yes, this can be difficult to retrofit in some homes, but it is a small concession in design to keep in mind if you're doing new construction or major renovations.)
Sitting down to evaluate your options may mean you're going with multiple smaller on-demand heaters spread around a home to come out with the most cost effective and efficient system.
He did say you can set it to start circulating at certain times of the day ?
While you can set it to help limit how much efficiency you lose over the course of a full day, you will still be hard pressed to get the same overall efficiency in a re-circulator setup as you will in a short-run tankless.
If nothing else you should remember to be very careful to properly insulate your hot water runs and keep them isolated from heat sinks, and ideally use a system that can auto inspect the crossover valve usage - You really don't want your tankless system trying to keep up if that valve jams open.
Not sure how common they are on mainstream commercial hardware, but I for one get a bit of a kick out of things like heating systems that can email me a monthly report, or send out an 'emergency' email if it detects something weird going on with itself.
I agree, can't beat the shortest run but if your lines are Super insulated, and they can be, I know because I was a Union Pipe insulator for 13yrs on commercial buildings, you can keep your losses down to about 6% over a 100ft run. And those one-way valves that go under the sink that he used are pretty much fail proof and work for decades with no problems.
As a plumber, I have found installing these units to be a tankless job.
perhaps you can help me understand how the recirculate pump can push thru the cold water side when my street pressure is 62#..it still takes .a long time to receive the hot water 60 ft away from the water heater.
@@tbasshandyman7610 your problem may be 60 ft away.
@@clintwestwood2731 in a perfect situation they could have installed a recirculating line. in these florida slab homes.
@@clintwestwood2731 yes of course that's why I'm here to try and figure out a remedy
I already have a thankless family. Why would I want a thankless water heater?
I dunno about longevity. We moved into a 'new' cabin in Northern Michigan that had been sitting for awhile from a previous owner dispute with the contractor, that had one of these on-demand water heaters installed. We fired it up and used it for two years before it failed and leaked all over the utility room. Opening it up, the fins had completely degraded and turned to grit. We had to have it rebuilt to get hot water again.
I wonder about the stagnate cold water being able to flow against well water pump (or municipal cold pump) back down the cold against the main flow for it wind up back down at the on-demand for reheating in the basement, unless there's a dedicated return tube apart from the main line. Prior to the cabin, my landlord had a recirculator system installed to bring hot water to the second floor flat on a timer to conserve water. Instead, it kept the hot line under tremendous constant pressure that eventually wore out some of the seals around the fixtures, both in the bathroom and the kitchen sink a few rooms away! We were changing O-rings constantly to stop the drips, not to mention the pressure in the hot line made resident water spit under pressure in the hot line, until relieved and normal flow resumed. He eventually just shut the timer off and we let the water run until warm enough to jump in. In our situation the promise of 'recirculation back to the on demand pump' was more of a marketing idea than a practical reality. But that was 2010 so maybe things have changed since then.
Brave man with that hole saw directly into asbestos siding with no PPE.
This high-efficiency model requires a condensate drain, intake/exhaust pipes through the wall, separate control unit, etc. There are much cheaper instantaneous water heater units that will vent up through a chimney like your old tank unit, do not require a special combustion air intake, and produce no condensate. They have no standing pilot, so they use no gas until hot water is called for. Cost is much less, also. You can check eBay for various models like this.
The absolute cheapest venting for tankless is high efficiency that use PVC!
If you reuse old style vent on ANY tankless you’re going to dissolve your chimney from the inside out.
The homeowner could step like two feet to his right and not have to duck at all. Way to go director!
OMG I know right! Heeheehee.
That vent piping on the center of the water heater is open on the sides - will that be an issue Co2 emmision?
Also a draw back on tankless hot water. The enemy to these systems is hard water. You must descale every 6 months if you don’t have soft water. There’s a process that has to be done that was not mentioned.
I live in Italy, we have hard water and i had a tankless water heater since 2001. the only thing that we have to do is call someone to check the heater every year to check the parts and if everything is ok
A water softener will remove the minerals and eliminate the need for annual descaling.
Vinegar works great where I live. $.50 sounds totally manageable :)!
My house has water lines for one large geyser (with tank). Now I installed tankless water heater for all the bathrooms and kitchen. Now, none of the new heaters are working.
I find it humorous when people say "hot water heater".
I had an instant on back in the 1980’s- loved it- saved mucho $ on gas
Did you buy a fake ID to enter the US with all that mucho you saved ?
I think Richard had a bet with someone that he could use the phrase "well hung unit" in a piece that made the air.
Did he use teflon on gas piping??? I was taught to never do that. Especially not blue. But Im still learning.
Expansion tank requires only on a closed loop.
Wondering the same thing. Only needed when heating water IN A CLOSED SYSTEM. Tankless only comes on when faucet is turned on, creating an OPEN SYSTEM.
@@Isaiah5417GdLk because they have recirc pump on and cross connection in the system, it's closed system when pump is running
Blue Monster, strut and clean lines. Nice install. A fellow Tradesman.
Most efficient way would be to have small hot water heaters near each fixture that demands hot water. I believe other countries tend to do it that way (for example, have a small unit above the shower head dedicated to heating shower water etc)
Was the clearance for the exhaust far enough away from the window above it? Didn't see any checking of the specifications or mention of it.
We have seen these in RIO for decades, however never seen a expansion tank !
yeah it is not needed, he even pointed to the same valve that will release the preassure IF it gets too high... *rolls eyes* and the circulation trick is not needed either, even with a tank heater you need to wait for the hot water to arrive at the faucet, no change there AT ALL. Running circulation just means you heat water that will then just cool down in the pipes afterwards anyways + needing expensive valves + a pump... The tankless heater is plenty enough
The expansion tank is required by code in municipalities where there are check-valves on the domestic water supply.
@@LiLBitsDK if u got a big system allot of radiators and piping u need 1. Else u can refill the closed system everytime after ur heated ur house because the presure difference is so big between heating and not heating. the automatic valve will spit out so much when ur heating that when the system is cold after heating the pressure in the closed system dropped way too much.
What is the name of that fitting that they mentioned in the upstairs bathroom to keep the hot water circulating all the time?