Great content as always Eric! Thank you for mentioning water quality. Tip for others, make sure the water conditioning equipment will allow and condition/treat at the required flow without to much pressure drop.
Biggest problem: using FOSSIL (un)natural gas for anything! It is only a little less FILTHY than coal(!!) and WAY filthier than everything else (solar, hydro, nuke, wind, …) USA must get off the fossil madness! Using heat pump tech for heating houses and tap water is the future (actually it has been used fir decades in civilized places)! District heating is another option, circulating heated water from garbage, minimizing dirty landfills… cleaning the exhaust is of course necessary.
We had one for 17 years and it never failed. The only issue I wish you would cover is the unit not firing when you open a faucet slightly. When we would barely open a sink faucet to wash hands, wash something gentle, the water demand wasn’t enough to tell the unit to fire. Not a huge problem, but a problem nonetheless. Great video sir!
Newer units have a lower threshold (due to increased technology allowing a wider range flame size), also try bumping the temperature setting down a notch so you are using ‘more’ hot water
Usually if its older its is because either the flow meter is lethargic or the heat exchanger is having issues from either scale or age and not allowing to fire on low flow. Second older units have a higher flow rate to get the unit to fire. Also be sure your unit is maintained.
The activation of a tankless water heater is triggered by water pressure drop. If the faucet is not open sufficiently, the pressure drop will not be sufficient to activate the water heater. Today’s faucets may be a problem as well because they are a water saver design which does not allow sufficient flow rate to activate the water heater. You can overcome this problem by modifying the water restriction device. Open up the hole in the restrictor until you achieve a flow rate that will allow your water heater to activate.
I had a lime coated tank that I replaced with a Renai. I love the tankless upgrade. No water softener needed. Every year or two, isolate the unit with the shutoff valves and use a small sump pump to run white vinegar through it to dissolve the lime. You will never need to replace it.
Use a gallon of CLR in your tankless, and it will last FOREVER. My last RV trailer had a tankless and I saved on LP and had all the hot water I ever wanted. My Airstream Excella Motorcoach has a Cummins/Onan Diamond series liquid-cooled gen-set that puts coolant into my hot water system and provides 90% of the heat for my water-brilliant set-up!
Jesus is the only way to healing, restoration and salvation to all souls. Please turn to him and he will change your life, depression into delight, soul heading from hell to heaven all because of what he did on the cross “Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Romans 10:13
@@HaroutBlack How is he about installing heaters, though? Is he licensed? How much experience does he have? How long do you have to wait for an appointment? I know a guy who had an appointment, Jesus showed briefly and gave an estimate, and we haven't seen him for years now. Getting tired of waiting for his second coming.
I would stay away from clr. It might remove the sediment but it might go too far. White vinegar is far cheaper and is a food grade cleaner@@Walkercolt1
I put in a tankless water heater 16 years ago. My plumber put in a “big blue” filter with a phosphorus insert and I have very hard water. I have it flushed out every couple of years. It’s working great!
If you get a water softener, your water will heat faster and you probably won’t ever need to flush it. There are several other benefits of soft water also. Check it out with a reputable water treatment provider.
Too much upfront cost. Only 4 more years and you will recoup your money. Then you can buy a new one. I never buy into much of that crap. People don't live that long to make a difference. My last HW heater lasted 20 years. I win.
Have been in our house on well 35 years…on our 3rd water heater which my husband (not a plumber) installed…think we’re ahead. Replacing a standard water heater is probably a lot easier. We had a 60 gal water heater when the kids were home and the last one for the two of us is now 40 gal…have never run out of hot water. Our replacement water heaters have been $150-$350 and our electric bills are not excessive. No one answer for everyone…there are a lot of variables like perhaps all copper insulated plumbing which holds the heat in the pipes when everyone is showering in the morning or the day I do laundry. As well…we have a water softener with a by-pass for the cold drinking water so it’s not salted.
All I have to say on this subject is that I highly suggest you get to know ALL the requirements of installing tankless way ahead of time. I learned the hard way that there is way more complexity to tankless than one might think. This was far from a simple swap in my case.
Exactly, which means you need a plumber and electrician to do something anyone with basic tools can do themselves. The hardest part about installing a water heater is getting rid of the old one.
@William Castleberry I would like to know where this. In the US this is not the case. I come from a long line of fitters and plumbers and they stretch from coast to coast.
I’ve had a Jacuzzi made by Rinnai tankless water heater since 2015 replacing an old tank heater and we just love it. Everything you say Eric in your video is factual. And I do recommend a tankless water to anyone that asks. The installation was a little expensive, but the maintenance I do myself is simple and easy and we are very satisfied. Thank you for making this video. PS because they last twice as long and so efficient well worth the investment.
I've only had one tankless heater installed, but I assume replacing it will be cheaper than the initial installation, since the wall mount and piping is in place, right? The plumber also said there's a potential to replace parts of it instead of the entire unit. So far it's been about 5 years and I haven't done any maintenance and haven't noticed any degradation.
if you live in a hard water area the heat exchangers get limed up and have to be chemically flushed......even when water softening equipment is in use.
Your discussion is great about gas fed tankless water heaters. You need to expand to include electrical tankless water heater vs electrical tank water heaters.
I was just looking for a comment like this. Exactly my request as well. I moved from one city that was abundant with gas lines though that state wants to ban natural gas (CA) to another state that where most of the homes appliances are electrical. Sure you can have gas but the city was requesting an initial charge of $10k to feed in a gas line..
Jesus is the only way to healing, restoration and salvation to all souls. Please turn to him and he will change your life, depression into delight, soul heading from hell to heaven all because of what he did on the cross “Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Romans 10:13
Sad to see such cynical negativity. I don't think he was specifically plugging Rinnai water heaters, because he never said a word about them being better than others.
2009 I installed a tankless. It was great. I was out of town weekdays and only in on weekends. What a great savings. Always endless hot water with extra high usage on 2 days of the week.
I love the tankless upgrade. I’ve had tankless now in two homes, one in the warm climate of the BC and another in the bitter cold climate of the north Alberta, great in both. We’ve never had an issue with a shortage of hot water as noted in the video. I love the tankless upgrade.
I installed a Bosch in my family’s summer cottage almost 30 years ago. I would do it again in a heartbeat. Had to clean the pilot one time. Provides plenty of hot water from cold well water. It’s great. I can only imagine how great the new ones are.
@@billyjack8081 Boy,isn't that the Truth Billy Jack! Consumers are getting ripped off by these newer inferior products! And I believe it is intentional!
@@RAREFORMDESIGNS A 20-year-old refrigerator could use 1,700 kWh of electricity every year, compared with about 450 kWh for a similarly sized new ENERGY STAR model. At an electrical cost of 12 cents per kWh, that represents a savings of $150 per year
I’ve had tankless gas for 8 years now. Totally love it. I do the annual maintenance myself, and it’s quite simple. I also have a filtration system to ensure a clean supply of water. It works fantastic. I’ll never go back to a tank.
A carbon filter will eliminate chlorine as well as filter out debris. Soft water will eliminate scale build up and a good water regulator will provide a consistent flow rate for accurate water flow adjustments. Water temperature is determined by the amount of time the water takes to pass through the water heater. If it takes to long, the water will overheat and the safety switch will prevent the gas from heating the water. Too fast, and the water won’t heat up to the desired temperature. My unit is designed for a flow rate of 2.5 gpm. I’m 78 years old and a former industrial piping designer. I installed my tankless water heater in the early eighties and have never flushed it yet and it is still going strong. That’s about 40 years ago. Still have the original bill of sale and instructions. My local plumber didn’t believe me till I showed him. He’s since changed his mind about tankless water heaters.
I live in Wisconsin and installed my rinnai tankless 2 years ago. It's awesome. Most issues are due to incorrect sizing, incorrect gas supply or maintenance. The larger units due require upgraded gas supply, and a plumber should be able to identify this. Although it's simple, look at your meter. You need a minimum 5psi supply for a high volume tankless. This also means you'll likely need a 3/4" supply to your water heater from a 1" main supply. This line should come before your furnace, which is probably on a 1/2" supply and probably requires less gas than your water heater.
I’ve had tankless now in two homes, one in the warm climate of the Deep South and another in the bitter cold climate of the north. We’ve never had an issue with a shortage of hot water as noted in the video. I would add only one suggestion, in my case I use an re-circulating pump external to the tankless water heater. It is a Taco brand and it has a feature where it learns your pattern of hot water use, so instead of always re-circulating it will learn for example when you normally shower in the morning and kick in before that time to have hot water available instantly. Thanks for the video.
@@mattbowers3541 Replace it with a Smart Circ Pump or put the circ pump on a timer. Depending on your local climate, even just circulating a few minutes every hour can help.
Eww you take shower in the morning? Take shower before bedtime to get rid of the germs you accumulated throughout the day. Your bed will thank you for smelling good lol
The bad thing about my home,like Thousands of homes in Florida built in the 60s and 70s is the copper water lines are buried directly in the sandy soil under the slab. So I just checked my kitchen sink, it took one gallon of water before I got hot water. All the videos talk about the cir pump getting the water hot then shut it off, well that water under my sink might be hot for 6 or 8 minutes but if I wait just 2 minutes and use the hot water it’s already cold, the sandy soil just sucks the heat out.
I had a large Rannai tankless heater installed over 20 years ago. It has never failed - not once. It's still running like new and I've done very little maintenance on it.
Upgraded from a cast iron boiler to a Rinnai combi boiler which is a boiler/ tankless water heater in 1. Saved tons of room. Works great and costs less.
Great review. I have personally installed 8 so far in various rental properties we own. Best was mid pandemic AO Smith 240 160k BTU ($1500 complete) to replace the 80gall HW tank in a 7 unit apartment building. It has run flawlessly & I no longer receive calls from frustrated tenants about no hot water. I installed a Stieble 24 plus in our Scottsdale winter home ($875 complete) & the gas consumption (kitchen cooktop & HW tank were the only appliance on NG) went from $165 to $13/month. & that was for the month of June when outside temps were 100deg & the temp in the garage was 115-120deg where the old HW tank sat cooking itself on a medium heat setting. I installed 2 Steible 20plus units in a duplex to replace the old rusted electric HW tanks in a damp flooding prone basement crawl space. Both units were installed in the bathrooms of each unit ($800 each complete) & have run flawlessly for 2 years. NG was not at the street. Electric consumption reportedly dropped significancy. 8 years ago I also installed a Steible 24plus ($699 complete) at our all electric Lakehouse. Highest electric bill with a/c etc running was $71. In the same period, our Lakehouse neighbor went through 2 propane HW tanks at $2300 each time, he also had to drain them to winterize. He just broke down & went with a Steible 29plus. On our larger homes I do install recirc pumps & the annual vinegar flushing is the only PM. When/where necessary I simply winterize with RV Antifreeze. My BIL just had one installed for $7200, but at least he did eliminate 2 75gall HW tanks.
I installed my own in 2015. Rheem was the only company at the time that would not void the warranty if it was installed by a non certified person. I have had zero issues. Make sure you use the right PVC to vent, mine had to be solid core, not foam core like big box stores usually carry.
I had a tankless in my last house and I loved it. I plan on swapping out my current tank heater to tankless. almost instant temp adjustment, endless hot water, takes up much less space. I've seen no downside.
My current apartment actually uses a big boiler. I've never had such hot hot water or an endless supply of it. It's absolutely wonderful when I'm hurting a lot. If I ever rented another house I'd actually try to talk the owner into putting one in & even offer to cover part of the cost. Just because of how much it helps me. It's one reason I don't want to move even though I'm in a crappy neighborhood. The other is the convenient bus route nearby.
I'm always blown away with 40 degree water...! Here in Sarasota, Florida, our water hits the faucet at 85 degrees...!!! Thanks, keep up your awesomeness and don't forget to compliment someone today...
I love my Rinnai tankless. I do live in an area with hard water, but I installed a water softener to take care of that. I've now had it running for the last 5yrs without a single issue. I do flush the tankless once a year myself (very easy to do) with the flushing kit - takes about an hour. The main think I love about it is that I never ever run out of hot water! My biggest peeve with tank water heaters was the timing of showers. Most families shower approximately around the same time back to back .. and sure enough .. after 2 showers .. the 3rd person would be out of luck with luke warm water at best. Does not happen with tankless. I also live in a warm area and we are able to do 2 showers and the dishwasher (on hot) running at the same time - no loss in temperature (mostly in pressure - but that's not the tankless fault). Anyway, I highly recommend them.
@@Peter-td3yk I flush mine myself .. Amazon sells a cheap flush kit .. run some flushing liquid through it .. or you can also use cooking vinegar (lots of UA-cam video's showing how). The one thing I will pay for is to have someone come and clean out the fan and heater assembly .. recommended to do a general cleaning of those every 5 - 7 yrs depending on how dusty your area gets.
We have two tankless systems in our house. One gas in our main house and one electric in our in law suite. The gas is Rinnai and the electric is Rheem. Absolute best decision ever to go tankless and both the Rinnai and Rheem have been incredible.
@GaBullDawg1334 "We don't make an electric model, because there are several potential drawbacks to electric tankless water heater units. First, the power requirements of electric units large enough to provide hot water for a typical household can be prohibitive." @gobdeep is full of shit
@@gobdeep they are the best , its not energy efficient to heat water when not needed , the thankless on demand is the way to go it uses a flow switch when your hot water faucet is opened, it then turns on gas burner or electric elements to heat water as need
Operating costs for the tankless are much lower for me. I live alone, and am frequently gone for several days at a time. Not paying to heat 40 or 60 gals of water that isn’t even being used is key. Still having unlimited hot water available when the whole family arrives for special occasions is perfect. I highly recommend the Renai. My first tankless lasted 10 years, but my tech said it wasn’t a quality one and replaced it with the Renai. Going on 8 years on this unit and no problems. Even the one that only lasted 10 years more than paid for itself in energy savings.
Installed an electric model myself , ran the required size wire and breaker, and what this gentleman says is the absolute truth, purchase a good unit , it saved me tons of money by not keeping a gas operated water heater filled with forty gallons of hot water and the tankless model I chose In electric works well in my airtight home when other appliances that require an exhaust outflow I noticed that there was no longer back flow of dangerous gases running up the side of my old heaters, actually the electric tankless has saved my life !!!!
Same here. Where I'm at, gas isn't an option. We have three people in an apartment with a compact tank (looks to be about 30 or so gal). In the winter, when the incoming water supply is extremely cold, we have to time it so that there's a half hour or more in between each of us taking a shower, which means that we're having to get up way more early than we really should so that everyone can get ready. Plus, we each only get at most10 minutes of hot water, because as the incoming cold water replaces the outgoing hot water in the tank, it's mixing with it and lowering the temperature of the hot water still in the tank, so the "hot" water isn't really even lasting for the time that would be expected of 30 gallons at 2 gallons per minute. If we could replace it with a tankless, and everyone be able to take back-to-back showers (or even better, all at the same time, since we have multiple bathrooms), we'd all be able to get another hour or more of sleep.
Electric tankless water heaters in my opinion are not a good choice. To get enough hot water out of an electric tankless water heater you would almost need 120 to 150 Amps of electricity.
Agreed. I want to know the cost difference, especially since there is no gas available in my area. So I’m trying to figure out if tankless is even worth it in my situation.
@@DetectiveMartin it will not be worth it. I think temperature rise in the winter is only 60 to 70 degrees. So water out of electric tankless would only be around 100 degrees with about 35 to 40 degree well water coming into the house.
Thanks Eric, I think you oversimplified purchasing cost. It is NOT a myth that Tankless water heaters are more expensive than tank water heaters (initially). From what I saw the cost lies more in the plumbing. I got two similar quotes last year to install a tankless water heater (including parts, labor, plumbing) and they were nearly $10,000, whereas a tank water heater was about $4,000. The tankless heater did cost more, but there was a huge additional cost due to the ""complicated plumbing"" of these types of water heaters. With that being said, the tankless water heater I looked at had a life expectancy of about 20 years, whereas tank water heaters have a life expectancy of about 10 years. After calculating how much I would save in gas because of the efficiency of the tankless heater, and having to replace my tank water heater after 10 years, I determined that I would start saving money after 12 years if I went with a tankless heater. I didn't chose a tankless because I don't plan to stay in my house for more than five years and it doesn't contribute enough to my property value to offset the cost. But, if someone is financially able to tie-up $10,000 and plans to stay their house for more than 12 years then it makes sense to get a tankless water heater. (At least from my own calculations and experience.) Note: The tank water heater was 40 gallon and the tankless was "its equivalent". Both were base models. Hope this helps those looking at this video.
12 year ROI is terrible. Just for comparison, with an electric tank, I calculated a 2.7 year ROI for a heat pump electric. I don't remember the exact number, but it was something like 8 years for a ventless dryer over traditional, and similar to swap AC ceiling fans for DC. Most houses will have many other options with a shorter ROI. Still, your prices are for new construction. (Or you're getting ripped off.) There's just no argument for swapping from a tank to tankless. Myth NOT busted.
The problem with your anaology is that you're not applying it to water heaters - where a 10-year life expectancy is minimum. So the first 10 years would be equal, whether you pay $4k or $10k therefore you're not gonna gain any ROI.
Mr Eric, thank you so much for sharing your profession, as well as the info on "tankless" water heaters. My wife & I have been kicking this idea around to convert from tank to tankless; with this info, you have given me a more clear picture of how it operates, things involved to consider and the price point. When you said putting in a tankless is about the same as a tank, from price to labor, it really helped us to made a knowledgeable decision. We will be putting in a tankless system. Thank you for knowledge & for sharing. God Bless from Pennsylvania.
Make sure to check the electrical requirements with respect to your electrical service/circuit breaker panel. Not trying to talk you in or out of your decision, but just wanted to help with planning. Hope all goes well.
@@paulmendez7679 Thanks for the info Paul, with the age of our home (it was built in 1870), we are upgrading ALL the electric & plumbing before upgrading any equipment in the home.
We installed a Rinnai tankless hot water heater in 2003. Still have the same unit and no issues 20 years later. Raised 3 daughters and a son and we have never ran out of hot water. One of the best investments we purchased for our house when it was built.
The only thing I wish you had covered is electric tankless heaters. I'm currently researching converting our entire house to electric only. So that means both furnace/heat pump and tankless water heater. I know that when you go electric with a water heater there's a good chance you have to upgrade your electrical panel, so it'd be good to hear what that impact is from someone with your depth of experience. Thanks for the great video.
Depends on your situation but here are some ideas. First ask an electrician, not a plumber who should not be running new wiring to anything even if they say they know what they are doing. While they are familiar with some basics, don't let them attempt this. Cost wise again depending on your situation is likely in the range of 600-several thousand dollars for the electric side alone. It puts a heavy demand on your system regardless even if it is sized properly to work with it. Gas models are good and reliable and don't require a hefty install cost like electric does. I was very surprised when he didn't address this in this video. Electric for a tankless heater is less reliable, sure they work but after seeing them fail frequently and having to change them out many times I'd never go that route for this specific equipment in my home. Either stick with your gas heater or get a standard electric heater instead of tankless. The savings is very debatable especially since the newer regular tank models are so well made and insulated to retain the heat better. Weighing that vs the cost and the heavy load on your electrical system and the choice is fairly easy. Hope this helps, an this is coming from an electrician of 25+ years.
I've got an electric tankless heater. You need to install a flow regulator because the electric tankless are far less efficient than gas. I have enough for a shower, but not enough for the tub faucet to stay hot. Mine is rated for 2 gal/min, but it works best at 1.5 or less.
Not to mention if your electrical service can not support the demand of an electric tankless. Some of them require a 100 amp service just for the tankless ! Your standard home has a 200 amp service. If it’s got electric heat then the service would need to be upgraded. That’s expensive. Gas tankless is definitely cheaper and way more efficient. But if you don’t have gas service then an electric tank water heater that draws 30 amps is your only option.
@@jerickson49 remember the old days where people just increased the size of a fuse or breaker? That's a big reason for many fires. The breaker and wire sized are very different. An average standard tank style water heater requires 20-30 amp line with wire sized for that line which is much smaller than is required for even the small size of a tankless unit. Depending on the amount of plumbing fixtures / baths etc.. is usually how a tankless is sized. Some tankless for a medium sized home may require wiring that can handle multiple parallel lines. For example, a home may be fine with a typical water heater that requires a double pole 25 amp line but the same home for a tankless may require two double pole 40 or 60 amp lines equivalent to 80-120 amps depending on the tankless requirements. If someone has gas now, chances are their home didn't need to account for an electrical load of any appliances that are now gas so a 100-200 amp service can't even handle an addition of 1 major appliance like a range, furnace, dryer, pool heater or water heater. Also they won't pass an inspection if they undersize a tankless for a home that requires a larger unit. More than you asked but hopefully you understand most of what I explained. I've seen some dangerous attempts by homeowners and handyman types so please hire a legit plumber and electrical company to do any of this work if you chose to pursue this.
You covered a lot of good points for going tankless. There is one install cost that can be very expensive, and that is for the electric models. There are older homes in areas that don't have easy access to the power requirements these things call for. My parents had a handyman talk them into a having him install a tankless. When inquired to why the water was just luke warm, he said it was working just fine when he installed it. This is when I decided to start learning about tankless. The most important thing about the electric version is that they need a lot of amps to work properly. The unit that was installed was a smaller unit, but still required a lot more than a #12 wire on a 40 foot run. That's right, the handyman used the original cloth wrapped #12 to power this tankless that calls for #8 in a fraction of the distance. The framework design and flat roof of this house does not allow easy replacement of any wires to this breaker box. The cheaper option ($4,300) was to run power from the meter main to the heater with #6 along the outside of the house with a new disconnect. After that, the hot water was working great, no more fire hazard and I was able to sell the house.
Amazing that it takes an electricle engineering degree and an over taught person to install a wire. In the Philippines, everyone installs there own 240v electrical wiring and panels. Yes, the climb the poles and tap in wearing sandals. No gloves. I asked them, is this grounded, does it have a neutral. Answer, it works. Who cares. 4 years no problems. Two wires coming in to a panel. Your government has you overprotected so they can make you pay.
The biggest cost for gas tankless water heaters is not the unit. It is the special vent pipe that is required. Unless you are fortunate enough to be able to mount on an exterior wall and vent directly through the wall to the outside, the pipe cost (including elbows, collars, and flashing) will run more than the gas unit itself. I speak from experience.
I’ve got the Rinnai non condensing unit now 5 yrs old . Yes once a year I run vinegar through it to maintain it. The cost savings on my gas bill is very noticeable over a tank unit. We love the fact that we never run out of hot water and can do laundry,dishes and shower at the same time.
I had a new gas tank type water heater installed about 10 years ago and it was $1200 for everything. They wanted over $4,000 for a tankless. I don't know of the costs now but I would say back then there was a very big difference in price
I think it depends a lot on how much vent work you need done or if they need to increase the size of the gas lines (or the electrical work you'd need to run electric which can take up to 150 amps).
If you have a tank heater and want to go tankless. you have to repipe the water, gas, install a flue to outside, have to watch for windows, and run power for it. Costs add up quickly and for what? Power goes out, no hot water. Want to take a shower and someone turns on the laundry or dishwasher, tempered water. Been a plumber for 40 years. You dont need high tech and a computer board to make hot water. Havent seen a tankless yet that lasts as long as a tank water heater.
I've built quit a few custom homes and never found the tankless heater was able to justify the added cost. Even over the life of both tanked and tankless heaters the savings from the tankless heater never made up for the difference in cost. The only reason for the difference in cost, in my opinion, is greed on the part of the tankless companies.
I installed one 18 years ago and after a year I replaced it with a tank heater because if you reduced the hot water in the shower it would often turn off the unit which left you with cold water unless you increased the hot water flow again. The incoming water in the summer time here is pretty warm so you need very little hot water. hopefully current models have a adjustment so you can control the pressure at which the unit turns off and on....
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
A comprehensive video and I learned a lot about tankless, EXCEPT for the cost. A water heater in Canada is about 7-800 bucks, I change them every 10 years or so. Tankless Rinnais are very expensive here, next door neighbour paid $11K to have one installed. The units are around $6-8K to buy. I'm certain there are plenty of comments here to confirm these numbers, with the US being lower in their $
here in Chile I can say it's 99% tankless. a good one, (medium range quality) will cost about 400 USD. depending how big is your house, you may need two, mine is 1507 sqft and I need just one. they last forever, mine has 10 years, it's outside and only needed regular maintenance every couple of years, maybe less, brand: Junkers.
Just went with a tankless water heater but I want to clarify one thing. This is later 2023 and the price of a good tank electric water heater was round $2,000 to $3,000 installed in my area. The gas tankless water heater we put in was a little over $6,000. So for us any type of ROI is basically shot, but we are hoping for a $15 year ROI, however time will tell. Our last water heater lasted 17+ years, and it is fronted by a water softener, so the hope is that this tankless will last at least 15 years. So the myth that tanks are less expensive is actually true, at least here in the Midwest. Again we went with a tankless for other reasons, but if cost is your number 1 concern, then you can save a ton of money initially by going with a tank.
Steve, like you I live in the Midwest. My 40 gal tank hot water heater is 30 years old. The wife and I grew concerned about the age. Our plumber, who in our opinion, is very honest said wait till it fails before replacing. Plus they'll install a new 40 gal tank heater for $1500.00 including the price of the tank and the labor. My decision of going tank or tankless is an easy one.
Even more so. A tank isn't 2 grand. It's more like 500 bucks. And they are stupid simple to install or replace. I am not fooled by that sales guy for a split second. Practically all his claims are wrong.
@@Antiorganizer I am only comparing the price that was quoted by multiple vendors. I have had people tell me a tankless is "stupid easy" to install as well. Having said that getting a near 20 year old tank full of sediment cut out and out from our basement is not "stupid easy" for someone like me. So again this is the cost difference that I was quoted and I wanted to let people know. Now are we happy with our tankless so far. Yes. But not because it saves it will have a ROI in a year or two or even five.
@@SteveMichael When our old tank went, I drained it, slid it out, put in new one in, and Bob's your Uncle. Used a dolly and help to get it up the stairs. Tank was like 500 bucks. Tankless is like 3 grand thereabouts. Electric tank might cost like 100 bucks more per year to run. It would a very very long time before the tankless start saving money. Another problem is that once people invested in it and have it sitting in their house, they don't want to feel bad about their decision, so they make up argument to make it seem that hey came out ahead, when they didn't.
We had the horror of installing tankless by a brand called Eternal. It was an Eternal problem. The service company replaced the entire unit twice in the first year and then once every year until Eternal went out of business. The company was a subcontractor for Home Depot. Home Depot gave us a new Rheem 50 gallon tank for $120. We were afraid to go tankless again.
I've heard of them. They had lots of issues with parts becoming "obsolete" as well if memory serves. Something would break on the unit, the repair guy would come out and he'd say "Yea, it's this thing, they don't make it anymore, can't fix it", and the homeowner was out $1K (or more) for a new unit. Even when some of these were under warranty the run-around was horrid. It's one of the horror stories that have kept us away from tankless, but I'm really leaning towards it, especially when natural gas costs are SKYROCKETING every winter (2022/2023 winter our natural gas costs more than tripled for 4 solid months). They are still near 1.5x what they were in 2021. Thankfully we have a High Efficiency water heater, but heating 50gal of water takes a bit of time for sure! If I go tankless, i want it to last a minimum of 15 years (that's what every tanked water heater I've owned has lasted, and I know people that are getting 20 out of them). Since I have power and gas to my existing unit, installation of a tankless should just require a mounting substrate put in, which honestly? That's 15 to 20 minutes extra work since all the venting already exists from my existing HE unit.
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We upgraded our hot water tank several years ago, and against my better judgement (and the coaxing of my father-in-law), we went from a 40 gallon tank, to a 50 gallon, to increase our hot water capacity. Due to the fact that I like to take long showers, I really wanted to change to the tankless system for the “endless” hot water capability, but was discouraged by my F-I-L, who believed them to be too pricey, and hard to find parts. In the winter, I can definitely feel the difference, as to when the hot water is beginning to run low. Let’s just say, I made a big mistake, and should have gone with my gut instinct. The next upgrade will definitely be to the tankless system. Thanks for all the information, and confirming what I should have done in the first place.
Long showers, how long? I run my pressure washer from the 50 gallon, and only after washing two a car and truck it would start to get low. Not sure, check your settings. Still prefer the tank, no electricity required.
I've been meaning to make the switch from tank to tankless for years but kept believing it was way more expensive. I'm already on my third water heater due to the tank leaking. Think I need to switch to tankless now. Great information thanks!
@@OldToolyya not the same. You have stock in the overprice tank water heater world? The price is a joke for tanked water heaters. Another industry that lies as it changes.
@@johngordon3882 I think it's more because I never flush the tanks and check/replace the anode rod. Now just last week my Rheem 12 year warranty water heater leaked after barely over 9 years. I did flush this one but only once last year when it started making popping sounds. I think most water heaters just aren't made to last like they used to be.
Looked into this about 10 yrs ago, cost was biggest stopping point. I might revisit the decision, Really like what I am now hearing seeing about them. thx
By far the most instructional video I’ve seen explaining Tankless W/ Heater. I learned new things coming from family of plumbers. Keep on making this videos please .
One thing to keep in mind with tankless water heaters is to get one with a digital controller. The turn knobs are not good at fine tuning to get consistent temps between showers and sinks.
I had no problem adjusting the knob. I turned it once and noted how far it was turned and the temp difference which was 24 degrees. I wanted a 16 degree difference so I dialed back one third of the increase. So it took a total of two adjustments. Nothing hard about that.
I lived in Amsterdam as a child, from 1950 and on, we had a gas tankless hot water heater (called a Geiser) situated above the kitchen sink, it also served our shower etc. . Most apartments in Amsterdam simply didn't have space for a big hot water tank. The first time I ever saw a HW tank, was when we moved to Canada..
This is a very good and accurate video.I installed my first gas tankless in 1976.All the local experts called me crazy with the usual facts .Or more acurate opinions.Fast foreward to 2020.I moved into a new home ,had to do extensive repairs.I removed the 40 gal conventional tank and had a Electric tankless installed..Not surprising all the usual comments even from the plumber.Well the same result.
Great video! A few things- older on demand heaters had metal vents that were crazy expensive- that is where that myth comes from. Technology has improved since then. Circulation pumps may save some water, but are not cheap or energy efficient at all. If it comes with the pump then that is great. But for it to work you need water lines to go from the tank to the tap and back to the tank to create a loop. And the lines need to be insulated. And the pump runs constantly even when no one is at home. That all costs money. I work for a builder and we have installed these systems in million dollar houses and usually they turn them off because of the crazy power bill.
No to everything that you said. Circulation pumps are a couple of hundred bucks and you need no extra lines. Technology has improved and the need for return lines is a thing of the past. My house is a little tech heavy and we use Amazon's Alexa Dots to do all kinds of things. You'll need the least expensive Dot that they make ($20) and a Tapo wireless switch. Get a 120 volt recirculation pump, install it, plug the Tapo into the closest receptical, and plug the pump into the switch. About 20 minutes before you want to use whatever hot water that is too far from the water heater, you tell Alexa to run the pump for 20 minutes. The pump runs for 20 minutes and then shuts off. You jump in the shower and the hot water is right there waiting for you. There will be some setup of all of your new devices but once it's done, you don't need to touch them again. I use the Dot/Tapo combination to turn lights on and off (and dim them if you have dimmable bulbs), turn on a small electric heater in my garage, run the pump, turn my garage exhaust fan on and off) and the Dot by itself to control our TVs.
@@kevinjackson4464, they use a special manifold that passes the water from the hot pipe to the cold pipe. The water just goes in a loop through the house pipes. I'm not sure what your need for hot water is that you can't wait 20 minutes but if that's the case, you could install a smaller electric tankless heater at the point of need. Our issue is the tank is at one end of our house and one of our bathrooms is at the other end of the house. The kitchen is in between. Since installing the recirulation pump we haven't noticed any increase in electric usage but our water usage has gone down. We use a Watts Premier Instant Hot Water Recirculating Pump System with Built-In Timer, but we don't use the timer.
@@kevinjackson4464, not enough to where we notice it. We're in the middle of winter and the cold water coming out of the taps is 55°. We're going to install a propane powered tankless when and if our current electric powered CWH goes bad. We're going to buy the tankless now and just set it aside until we need it. We have a garage apartment and that has a 40 gallon electric powered CWH and we already have a electric powered tankless ready to go for that one. We were doing some drywall work in the kitchen and ran the correct size wires for that tankless then.
Well, that was a great sales pitch. When I recently choose to stay with my conventional tank style water heater, the deciding factor for me, which he didn't talk about, was the recommended preventive maintenance for tankless units. My old unit went 23 years using supply water with a high TDS reading requiring virtually no preventive maintenance. It probably would have lasted longer had I flushed it annually and replaced the anode but even 15 years like the one he cut into would have been enough for me avoid the labor-intensive tankless units.
Absolutely correct. If you do not supply conditioned water to the tankless water heater you will have nothing but problems with it. And with plumbers charging between 150.00-200.00 for a service call, any savings by converting to a tankless system will soon be lost.
I switched to tankless from electric after going through 2 electrics in 6yrs. The first had been in the house for 15yrs before I bought it and it died my second yr. The second one rotted out in 4yrs. My tankless has been in place 8yrs with no issues. I flush it every 2 yrs. It takes about 30min to do. Fortunately I work for a propane company so I can borrow the flush kit without having to pay a service call. You can buy the flush kit for about $150-200 or you can make one for cheaper money. All you need is a couple gallons of white vinegar to flush through the system. Not a lot of maintenance in my opinion! I have high iron content in my water, by the way, with no filtration!
As I’ve already got a gas supply to my existing water tank & when it was installed, they installed a vent line as it was a high efficiency device, you’ve convinced me that a tankless is a viable alternative. Thanks for the info!
Natural gas sizing is very important...you could be going from a usage of 40,000 BTU to 200,000 BTU quite easily..find a professional to size this load before you make a decision on what tank you will use...you may not have much to change or very easily have to redo your whole gasline or maybe even your meterset,
Anyone who is as old as I am most likely always listened to Paul Harvey and his news reports, I remember him talking about these tankless hot water heaters back then. I am glad this fellow mentioned the water quality. Too many times people get the wrong idea about "spring" water and its quality and clarity. All water no matter the source needs to be treated. Even then it can still be bad quality. For instance, where I live the county does treat the water but it is still pretty hard and scaley and it destroys coffee makers, especially the Keurig's.
Great content, great discussion. I'm a super fan of tankless and have installed it some pretty novel applications. Our current home will likely receive an upgrade to tankless when the current water heater moves on.
When I did a tankless unit 12-15 years ago, the venting was VERY expensive as stainless steel was the only option. It looks like things have changed, but I understand where the concern came from.
Yes it has, so has the efficiency. I have a Rheem high efficiency unit that is good for roughly 6 gallons a minute and it’s vented via pvc pipe. You can hold your hand in front of the exhaust and it’s barely warm.
I had a tankless in Germany. It was a two-stage that clicked over from warm to hot depending on water flow(?) Showers alternated between cold or scalding. Real fun.
@@Greg042869 Yes! You have no idea what a mixing valve is do you? There is a valve behind your shower wall that is thermostatic controlled. It mixes hot with cold so you can’t get scalded. Educate yourself before commenting
I had my first tankless water heater back in 1984 when I was stationed in, what was then, West Germany. I had two tankless water heaters installed in the house we built back in the USA in 2008. They've worked quite well. I had two installed, along with two HVAC, when the house was built because of the distance between points of use. Our units are rated at 7.5 gallons per minute at 140 degrees. We've never been in want for hot water. We use gas for furnaces, cooking, grilling, and water heating. During the summer months we typically use 0.25 to 0.30 dekatherms per month. They work well for us.
I went tankless and wondered why I waited so long and why traditional tanks are still even made anymore. Flushing once a year is not difficult. Now if you are not mechanically incline or lazy then it is coming to cost you money. My brother bought a new construction home 15 years ago and tankless was the only option. His tankless is still going strong with just flushing it with vinegar every year. His neighbor didn’t maintain her’s and it died in 3 years. The key to owning tankless is yearly flush and routine maintenance.
As a home inspector, the only reason I recommended a tank water heater over a tankless is, in the event of an emergency situation, you still have 40-50 gallons of potable water as emergency back up with a tank water heater. This is especially important in earthquake prone areas. Otherwise I've noted very few issues with the tankless.
@@dubu5820 I've actually got an old Data Center UPS near mine. I Pulled an old one that wasn't needed anymore at work (moved to a room with proper central battery backup).. put new batteries in it, and now I run my internet, 1 wall socket, and my furnace off it. ..internet and wall socket so we can stay illuminated and entertained during a power outage.. and furnace mostly in case we have a power outage when we're away (OK.. it's for the Cats). 3rd party lead acid 'motorcycle' batteries aren't that expensive, and you can probably find an old second-hand 2 to 3U rack-mount UPS fairly cheap.. especially if It needs batteries (..they're god-awful expensive new though).
I suppose that's a good point, but it won't work when theres no pressure in the line if things fail elsewhere, so would it even work without you needing to manually drain the tank? And either way I guess, most people could just store a few sealed jugs of drinking water for emergencies.
@@EileenTheCr0w always good to be prepared for at least weeks worth of time if a foreseen issue is possible . I keep enough on hand for about that just in case , rotate out water with new when I need to . As for potable water to drain from tank , you would need to vent by opening a faucet or breaking a union at the water heater and using the bottom valve and hose to pull from tank .
I have 3 tankless water heaters. One in each of 3 buildings. The first one was installed in 2000 and still working fine. Like almost all videos on tankless water heaters you only talked about gas heaters. All 3 of mine are electric. The electrics are probably not quite as efficient as gas but what can you do when gas is not available. What I love about the systems is that they use NO electricity when no one is running hot water.
@@jeffcale5169 neither is used when taps are off. This is one of the big benefits. If you are gone all day or a whole weekend they don’t periodically run to keep a whole tank hot for an empty house. Tankless just sits there using no gas or electricity until someone comes home and opens a tap.
20 years in the trade as a wholesale supplier here, only problem I see personally with this video is Rinnai. Boy those things are a treat to work on compared to say, Navien, or any other brand for that matter. It’s like taking apart a German sports car.
re: Water quality: I have a hard water problem, and due to original construction constraints, I haven't been able to treat the water properly (still working on a solution). As a result, I've been flushing the water heater (Rinnai tankless, recirculating, condensing) with vinegar about every two to three months to mitigate the impact. The sentiment problem will impact any water heater, but since tankless heaters have no water tanks to trap sentiment, it's immediately flushed into the plumbing system, fouling fixtures, check valves, and anything else in the system. The solution I came up with is a spin down strainer at the EXIT of the water heater, which traps most sentiment, and can be flushed with the flip of a valve.. I believe installing these should be standard for tankless water heaters, i.e. it just makes sense, regardless of the water quality.
I absolutely love my tankless with the built in recirculating pump. I added a commercial water conditioner and softner to mine. As far as efficiency goes, the longer showers definitely eat up any savings and yes, we needed a larger gas line to heat the water for multiple showers. We have 105 psi water that is regulated to 65psi. That gives us plenty of pressure no matter how many fixtures are running. I'll never give up my tankless.
Your recirculating pump is also an effective heating system for the insides of your walls, especially if your lines are not insulated. I.e. you will find a significant portion of energy used to heat your hot water, is being lost. You can check this by reading the gas meter over a period of time when hot water is not being used. This will then enable you to determine the average energy loss when in the ‘standby’ mode and enable you to calculate this as a portion of your whole gas consumption. (Assuming you only use gas for hot water heating)
@Denso You'd be absolutely right in a normal situation. My lines are 100% insulated and the tankless has learning technology. It remembers when you use the hot water in increments of 10, 30 or 60 seconds. I've set mine to 60 seconds. It will the run 15, or 30 minutes prior to your shower, or other heavy use. I've set mine for 15 minutes. In reality, I'm probably more thermal efficient than a tank water heater. My home is also fully insulated as well.
Yes, when I install tankless units I warn the customers that they will never run out of hot water -as long as they pay their gas and water bills, which may go up if teens and wives happen to take up residence in the shower 😂😂 luckily there is a power button on it that can be used in emergencies to get family out of the shower in a timely manner.
We have a gas-fed tankless water heater and have noticed a couple issues with the technology. First, you must maintain a minimum hot water flow in order to keep the heater heating. If you’re using just a trickle, soon any hot water in the supply line gets replaced with cold, and then you have to go all out hot to flush the cold water out, and water gets wasted. Circulating pumps would help but then the water heater runs a lot more, decreasing its efficiency. Second issue is that if your electricity goes out the gas water heater won’t run, (unlike a tank water heater which doesn’t need electricity) unless you plug the tankless into a battery backup UPS…
How old is your unit and do you do the required maintenance (vinegar flush)? I bought a house with a tankless water heater...that hadn't been maintained for years. I replaced it with another tankless and have had NO problems with flow or temperature.
I just got mine installed 2 weeks ago and I will say I am very impressed and pleased with the results. I was very hesitant at first due to the possible delay to get the hot water to each locations. But it proved me wrong! Here are my stats: upstairs washroom took 25 seconds before to get full hot water and now it takes 35 seconds. In my kitchen it used to take 15 seconds and now it takes 25 seconds. So really it added only 10 seconds to get full hot water at 140 Fahrenheit for each location. It is very quiet and gained a lot of storage space. My model is the Navien 240
One thing I will be doing to maybe improve heat retention on the long runs of plumbing is to cover the pipes in foil and then the closed cell foam insulation . This should (hopefully)reflect the heat back to the plumbing delivering hotter water while using less energy to do so .
We've been using a tankless now for 5 years or so and this is my observation since switching. 1) we have a gas tankless. And I suspect a similar issue is involved with electric ones. But we had to get our gas meter replaced with a higher pressure/volume unit. And we had to have new gas regulators installed on all the existing gas appliances (stove and furnace) to compensate. Because we're dealing with a monopoly, it took weeks for them to come out and swap out our gas meter. It didn't cost us anything, but it was a pain anyway. For electric, I suspect we would have had to have a new circuit installed in our fuse panel and power lines run to the unit. 2) Cold water sandwiches. No, not the kind you eat. We have a condensing unit and periodically while taking a shower, the water will suddenly get "colder" for about 15 seconds, then it returns to the original temperature. Granted, it's not *COLD*, but it's cold enough to notice and you need to be aware of this so you don't compensate by making the water hotter, because when the hot water returns, it will be too hot! 3) It does take longer for the water at the faucet to feel hot. Not a lot, but it is noticeable. I've toyed around with a recirculating pump, but cost wise, it isn't worth it so we put up with it. 4) maintenance. Our tank heater we never bothered with maintaining it. And when it was taken out of the basement, it showed! gunk came pouring out and into the back yard! Yuck. So, one of the things I heard with tankless is that if you don't descale it yearly, it will become junk in less than 5 years. So I purchased a sump-pump some hoses and a bottle of chemicals and a bucket. And every year, I run the chemicals through the heat exchanger to keep the scale at bay. This $150 investment I hope will pay off in the long run. And it's just 20 minutes to do. Then when it's done, I write on the side of the tankless heater, the date of the descaling to keep track!
The problem is with clients wanting to switch over to electric tankless from electric tank water heaters. But in all cases so far, all the fuse panels would have had to be replaced. They just didn't have the space for the 2 or 3 extra 40 amp fuses, or they didn't have enough overall amperage and had to move up to a 200 or 300 amp box. Plus, lines have to be run, which gets expensive quick. I noticed he didn't mention that.
Great video. I installed a good gas tankless water heater when my tank version went bad. Did the proper research. Got a better rated one, plenty big. Never run out of hot water. It does take a while to get to the second floor. Not an issue on the shower as by the time I get into the shower, it is hot. The sink however, I usually finish washing my hands before the hot water is present. No big deal. I did ad a pre-filter that did not significantly drop the water pressure as we have natorious hard water. Love the change. Won't go back to a tank. Oh, BTW, being an avid DYIer, I did install it myself and made sure that it was done correctly. Followed the recommendations exactly and watched many UA-cam videos. Dad always said it was not worth doing a job unless it is done right.
I've built a few off grid homes and used tankless water heaters. With a gravity fed water system there was never enough pressure to allow the heater to even ignite and heat the water. A pressure pump is necessary to increase the pressure in order for the heater to work requiring more drain on the batteries.
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All UK water systems used gravity feed whe we lived there and tankless water heaters were the only thing available. Off-grid in North America should be possible with European design.
I lived 33 years in Korea. The last 28 years in apartments and ALL had tankless water heaters. Apartments and homes in Korea are heated by floor heating with hot water by tankless water heaters. NEVER have I had cold water when I turned on hot water in the shower, bathroom or kitchen sinks. Tankless water heaters have been used in Korea for at least the last 30 years. Tankless is the only way to heat water for houses, businesses or apartments. That is just speaking from 33 years of experience and usage!
Our biggest complaint about tankless has been the "luke warm" water you will get at a sink when turning the hot water on and off at a kitchen sink while handwashing dishes. The delay for the burners to kick on after it senses flow allows bands of cold water to exit the unit before the water is up to desired temp. This results in a luke warm output at the sink. Outside of that we love it and wouldn't consider going back. I have considered a loop to the heater from the kitchen sink that will run for a set time after flow is detected, just haven't done it yet.
I lived in an apartment that had tankless water heaters, it was amazing. There was 1 water heater for every building, and for apartments per building, and a communal washer and dryer. I worked in the oil fields at the time, I would come home and take long showers and never had any problems day or night. I would one day like to have one in my house.
I also wonder if there's a big difference between the models shown in the video. We have a model that looks more like the bigger one and it's a beast. It doesn't go full throttle unless you turn on multiple faucets. The water is always consistently at the right temp. Maybe the apartment that was bad went with the cheaper unit that couldn't keep up?
We install These at our home builds. Dont expect To wash laundry and shower at the same time. Or run the dishwasher and shower at the same time…. And we’ve had more bad circuit boards, malfunctioning units with Rannai than the new vendor. The recirculating feature creates surges of hot and cold water until the full heated water shows up. Also make sure they are not mounted on a wall not near a bedroom because they are loud and the circ pump running can be heard through the wall…
I installed an electric tankless water heater and it worked well. It required a lot of electrical capacity for the installation which would have been really expensive had I not been able to do it myself. What I didn't realize is how it would affect my power bill. It shot up at least a hundred dollars a month. I expected a little bump but it was surprising and not in a good way. On the plus side I was able to fill my whirlpool tub without having to stop and wait for the hot water to come back.
was your prior water heater gas fired? I am all electric in my heating/Cooling and Water heater. I am strongly considering a tankless as my 25 year old water heater is becoming less hot water and more hurry up and wait. so I am looking at the energy difference between electric water heaters and electric tankless.
@@BigHappysPlace I replaced a large electric water heater with an electric tankless. I loved the space savings but not my electric bill. If I could go back, I would have gone with a gas tankless. I have heard that those are more efficient but can't say how the actual dollar to dollar cost to operate would compare.
Costs are only comparable to replace a tank water heater with a tankless heater in a few circumstances. The tank water heater needs to be by a wall, if it sits out in the room next to the furnace then you will have to move the water heater location to a wall or have a wall built. Tankless water heaters cannot float in midair. If you are moving the water heater to an existing wall now you will need to rerun the water pipes, gas line, and flue to the new location. (All at additional cost compared to replacing a tank water heater with a tank water heater). All residential water heaters require a 1/2" gas line. Almost all (but like you said in the video a few don't) require a 3/4" gas line. So most tankless conversions require upgrading the gas line to the heater. (At an additional cost compared to a tank-to-tank replacement). All tank water heaters are vented with either the metal flue pipe along with the furnace (or with a power vent heater PVC). Less than 20% of tank water heaters currently installed in homes are power vent models. So, a tankless water heater requires a whole new vent system to be installed. (At an additional cost compared to a tank-to-tank replacement). I am not even mentioning the size of the job if the basement is finished and now you are cutting open drywall ceilings to run the vent pipes. Having the recirc feature set up on a tankless water heater diminishes the efficiency of the heater. Now the heater fires up (on the model you show in the video) a 200,000 BTU burner (that's bigger than most residential furnace burners) to heat and circulate the water to the sink. If you have a gravity feed recirc line to the tank water heater this is done continuously at no additional cost. I noticed that you don't tell people that with a tankless water heater you have no hot water during a power outage, but with a tank heater you still have all the hot water you normally do when power is on. You might have to shower by flashlight but it's hot water. It sounds like your tankless water heater costs you money in utility bills. Your daughters wouldn't be able to take super long showers if they didn't have unlimited hot water. Think of how much water you would save with 10-minute showers. You state that you charge pretty much the same to replace a tank water heater with another tank one or a tankless. In Nebraska the average flat rate for replacing a 50 gal. water heater with a like one is $2,000. A typical tankless water heater conversion runs about $6,000. A 50 gal. water heater is $700 and your model tankless runs $2,700. If you install tankless water heaters for $2,000, put me in your next open slot and come install a tankless at my house. If you charge $6,000 for a tank water heater installation, how do you sleep at night? The question I ask homeowners that are considering switching to a tankless water heater is, "do you run out of hot water on a regular basis?" (Like you, several daughters showering or a big soaker tub that is used regularly)? The main benefit of a tankless water heater is the ability to have unlimited hot water. But if you don't constantly run out of hot water this isn't a feature that is really needed. Even with the higher efficiency of a tankless compared to a tank type you will not see that significant of a decrease in the utility bill. The majority of the gas consumed a month is by the furnace not the water heater. Most likely you won't even recoup the additional cost of switching heaters after 20 years of a slightly lower utility bill.
You got that right. If they need more hot water and they have a tank you can turn water heater up and put in temperature control mixing valve. In St louis a tank water heater can last 30 years +. No tankless will last that long. Tankless have their place like for the family with eight kids (8). Commercial kitchen Where they never have hot water at end of night to clean. A tankless cost three times as much $500 tank labor $450- $1000 or $2000 for a tankless A good one. labor $1500- $4000 Add softener or filter and If you have to move it close the door.
Yes, I agree. One thing I noticed is that there is no mention of maintenance. I understand with a tankless there is a scheduled maintenance program required. If that's true, it might be very expensive, especially for someone who has to have it done by a contractor because for whatever reason the homeowner cannot do it his/her self.
I would love to see a comparison video of Gas vs Electric Tankless Heaters. I think that is where some of these "myths" are coming from. It's been a little while since I installed either type but never had any luck with the electric tankless being able to maintain a consistent temp and the customers ended up going back with the hybrid tank models.
This is where you spend install $$$$ even a small electric unit requires a lot of large wire. right now that's big bucks unless the power panel is right by the heater.
Electric tankless is great. Use several smaller units in your home, instead of one large unit. Cheap, easy to replace, takes up no space, unlimited consistent, hot water. Put a 1.5gpm shower head in, and save a fortune. The teenager can shower for an hour now, I don’t care. That’s like 1.25 in electricity only with a my setup. Units are like 200 bucks and easy to replace. If one does, the others are still working.
We had a navien for 10yrs. Combo boiler/water heater. Worked great and saved us 3/4 on our gas bill. However 6 weeks after the 10yr warranty was up things started going. Motherboard, valves, other stuff. Our HVAC guy , a licenced navien repairman, was so frustrated along with us that after 8 weeks of trying various repairs we gave up. We replaced it with an american made lochinvar. Seems fine so far. We'll see after it's 15yr warranty is up.
My 75 gal. Lochinvar, from early 80s lasted 30+ years, working even while having a small leak for the last 5 years. Not sure the new ones will last that long now.
I have a tankless, it's been in my home for at least 10 years. The only thing you missed was the annual maintenance, as mine is flushed every year by the company that installed it.
@@jameskehn8609 the drain is on the bottom where sediment builds up. That sediment doesn’t travel all the way up and through your system as it’s heavier…
@@jameskehn8609 Water scale builds up inside and the unit is flushed every year with vinegar to remove buildup. Also the igniter should be cleaned as well, over time is gets dirty and eventually may not ignite the gas.
@@jameskehn8609 if you don't flush out the scale that build up you could end up replacing the heating unit, which would be very costly. Affects efficiency as well. As he said - that pertains to condensing units only. I have the company that installed it do it even though I'm capable. I'm not capable of remembering or scheduling it lol.
I've got the condensing style. I would never go back to a tank. But you must understand, there are trade offs. I did indeed have to upgrade my supply. I had an entire crew spend an entire day tearing up my yard, pulling in a new line, replacing my main regulator, and placing independent regulators on each of my appliances. The dual wall venting was expensive to me. Operationally, it works on a pressure differential. if the differential between the hot water request is not substantially greeter than the cold water request, No hot water will be produced. sometimes, I can be mid shower when demand for cold water is requested elsewhere in the house causing the differential to drop below demand requirements shutting down the heat exchanger and leaving me in a cold shower. Having to turn off the water and then turn the hot on full while i stand there naked and shivering waiting on the hot water to make it back through the pipes. Its a learning curve. I do like it better. But its NOT all unicorns and rainbows.It cost me a whole lot of money to get it all set up right after i hung it on my wall. And it is quite 'clunky' compared to the ol' reliable. But it is efficient and it never runs out. Oh yeah, it doesn't work if the power is out. so also be sure to install a UPS. That's another hondo. This is NOT one of Jack's "magic beans."
Yes, there are trade offs, sounds like you have some general plumbing issues that are making it harder on you (which I realize may not be worth tackling until you have to, but also aren’t the tankless’s fault). A small generator will easily cover the electrical demand of a tankless, which you probably want anyway for the many other things in your home there require electricity. But yes it’s a factor.
I’ve been in business doing HVAC, electrical and plumbing for 30 years. I have installed hundreds of tankless water heaters. I still would rather have a 50 gallon gas water heater in my home. They are more dependable, work when the power is off, cheaper to buy and install and we never run out of hot water.
I appreciate the honest review. I feel the review on this channel is a bit bias / kind of a conflict of interest considering it's sponsored by the product featured in the video.
Thanks for the overview, and you make good points, but after owning a Noritz condensing unit for four years, I'm not a fan of tankless heaters. We renovated our house, which had two 40 gal tank heaters in parallel. Contractor's plumber convinced me to install a tankless Noritz to replace the two tanks ("instant hot water!"). I said I wanted to keep one of the tanks as a backup - in series, bypass-able, with thermometers on the inlet/outlet/return of the tandem arrangement so we could troubleshoot the loop if needed. Plumber said I wouldn't need it but agreed to install all the bypass valves and the thermometers I asked for because it was just extra income for him. The tank heater - 10 years old at this point, and still going strong -- has saved me from running out of hot water at least twice or three times each year when the tankless has failed (about 10 failures in total). More often the tankless doesn't fail entirely but errors-out on high exchanger temperature, requiring a bypass if you are showering, and a "wait and reboot" sequence. But with the failures, I've had to replace an air-gas mix valve, an air fan (the turbo charger you talk about), the water mix valve, a control panel, a PCB (printed circuit board), and my personal fun-in-the-hot-attic event: full heat exchanger replacement. I am so thankful that I kept to my guns with the spare tank as I would have been completely without hot water multiple times over the past few years until Noritz sent a part to me. And although Noritz has warranted parts, troubleshooting takes several hours of my time, and in the case of the exchanger replacement, expensive plumber's time. What you didn't mention in the water quality section is that tankless need to have much cleaner systems to operate. I clean my system each year with vinegar at minimum, or the solution when I feel like it. Our system is on relatively soft city water, but I have an inlet filter for both the city supply and the hot water return line. I do this solely to ensure the tankless doesn't foul (it did foul a few months after commissioning due to teflon in the line - that's when I installed the filters. Tanks, although they do collect sediment, are much, much more forgiving. Kirk
I’ve had a very similar experience with my rheem. Several parts sent for free. several events of zero hot water. Always parts failure. mixing valve twice, circuit board twice. thermocouple/ sensor once.
I lived in Spain in the 80s and tankless water heaters were everywhere. Our family of four would go threw about 5 gallons of butane every two weeks. We also had snow. Our water was always more than hot enough and we never had an issue.
Nice explanation. Nothing but tankless since the late 90s. Another benefit not mentioned here is that the water outlet temperature never fluctuates, which is noticeable on the smaller, forty gallon units most commonly available. When the old direct vent, Navistar/Bosch tankless unit finally failed a few years ago we got a new Rinnai from Ebay. Running a thirty plus foot exhaust line was a PIA but well the effort. Since my "helper's" father wrote the plumbing code for our state, we did everything by the book. Never had any problems, although the old unit could produce much hotter water, which was unnecessary.
been using tankless water heaters since 2001 (which back then I did have to buy units imported fromJapan) - is amazing that this would be considered somehow contoversial any longer
I found the cost of installation to be much higher, but not directly because of the water heater. The energy consumption of a tankless, however, is so much higher than a tank heater. We would have needed a fairly expensive upgrade to our gas line in order to support the tankless heater. So getting the first tankless installed would have cost us a lot more than the tank unit we got.
@@izafanime If you had a tanked gas heater, it would have too small of a gas line to support the tankless. So you would need to run a new gas line, which could be quite pricey depending on the details. Tankless need lots of gas while they are running, but they run much less. Less total gas, but super high flow rate while running.
That's exactly what I've heard as well. That it costs more to run them. I thought it funny he didn't cover operating costs because that's really why I clicked this video.
@@MarylandFarmer. No, that is incorrect, especially if you go for stretches of time where you do not use hot water. Like most people, you probably only use hot water a few minutes every day. A tankless burns fuel fast, WHILE YOU ARE USING HOT WATER, but all the rest of the time, it uses zero fuel. A tank heater will keep burning fuel to keep the tank hot 24/7
That is a "depends". Depends on the size of the gas meter sitting outside your house. Depends on what size tankless water heater you are installing (BTUs). Depends on the other gas appliances you have already. I have a 250,000 BTU meter, the Rinnia needs 160,000 BTU .. this handles two bathrooms with ease which is my house. My furnace is 40,000 BTU. Got rid of that nasty gas stove so nothing there. Didn't need to upgrade my meter, or gas lines ... DEPENDS. Never AssUme
To fix the problem of it taking a long time to get hot water: Use a HW manifold placed very close to the hot outlet, then a Single 3/8 PEX line to Each shower or faucet. The 3/8 lines flow tons of water for one fixture And pushes the hot through the length of the line 4X faster than using a 3/4 trunk line throughout. Always use a manifold with multiple outlets for HW to save energy and get hot water fast.
My tankless system has a feature to circulate hot water though the pipes even though you are not using water. The pipes are insulated and it drops the 98% efficiency only by one percent. Hot water is nearly instantaneous.
Problem is, the sitting cold water in the line from the manifold to the fixture. And if you have a recirculation pump in your systemm, a manifold would render that recirculation pump useless.
And a 3/8 inch line? If you are using PEX connectors which go inside the line, you inside diameter is even smaller and your pressure is crap! I have a 3/4" insulated loop through the house, and the only place you find 1/2" is the small section that stubs thru the walls, recirculation pump that is activated by motion sensors around the house so it doesn't run continuously, and even if it ran 24/7, based on the numbers, it would cost me maybe $30 a year to run. Small price for hot water at every fixture within seconds
Correct. The flow to a single fixture is under 2 gal /min so pressure drop is minimal in most cases and there's no thermal loss from recirculating. Hard to find 3/8 PEX, not at home depot so I use 1/2 pre manifold. 3/4 trunk lines are the worst possible choice but It's the legacy system installed everywhere. Always use a small single line to each hot fixture.
We live in coastal Alabama and installed a tankless a couple of years ago. It's awesome! My wife is from the Netherlands and that's the only system she's ever known. In fact, she was shocked when she saw our original water tank. She grew up thinking that Americans had all the best/latest technologies. I could only shrug and laugh.
Yeah, like our internet! A friend of mine in Russia (RUSSIA!) has 1 GIG download speeds in to her house, and 600 MB UP. Cost? $40 American dollars. Insane
Great video. I do have one more concern that you didn't cover. I have had an NSI tankless system for 5 years that runs both my baseboard heat and domestic hot water. I've always wondered if turning the hot water off and on repeatedly in a relatively short time frame will harm the heater. For instance, when I wash dishes, I don't run the hot water constantly for rinsing. I turn it on to rinse and off until I need to rinse again to conserve water and energy. But every time I turn it on and then off, doesn't it have to go through its start up sequence all over again? Is this harmful to the unit? I do notice a cooldown section of water when I do this. What are your thoughts?
Had one at work 20 years ago for a bathroom. It was literally right on the other side of the bathroom wall and took 3-4 minutes to get hot water. Hopefully they have come a long ways, as I have never bought on based on that experience with them.
Back in 2018 during an ice storm, my neighbor's tree fell on my truck and house ripping the electrical out of the meter block. For 3 very cold days, we had no electric or heat. The only thing that made us feel human at the time, was we had an old school water heater that didn't require electric, so at least hot showers were possible. So 2 years ago when I had to replace the old water heater that lasted 16 years, I put in another old school water heater. During the summer, my gas bill is less than $30 for hot water and the gas dryer. Winter is a different story altogether with the heat. I was told I would probably need to increase the size of the gas pipe if I went with a tankless. That being said, the faucets are on the opposite side of where my mechanical room is. If I did go with a tankless and went through all that trouble, I would probably want the tankless water heater put in the laundry room near the washer and dryer where all the faucets are in that general area. That would mean also running either a larger pipe for both the dryer and tankless, or an additional line for just the tankless. I'm not going to worry about it right now, since I've probably got another 10 plus years left in my new water heater.
In 2005 I had a tankless water heater installed at my new house. It had a piezo self igniting system, so no electric line was needed for that type of tankless water heater. I can't remember for sure, but I think it was a Bosch model.
if you have a long run you must hav a pump or a lot of water is lost..tanked have what is called heat transfer to copper piping etc they dont get totally cold the whole way..tankless water heater is off water is damn cold until you lose 3 to 4 gallons of water at 130 temp. I know this i use a 5 gallon bucket at tub.. I aint taking a cold shower.. 4 gallons winter time to get a real shower.. I use water to flush toilet.. Same with kitchen sink galons until its uable.. unlesss a short run.. raising temp to 130 really helped at 120 it was 5 gallons or more for a usable shower.. a 5 gallon bucket aint light.. but one gets used to it..
That 4 ft.² floor savings means you can spend even more and put a softener there! Even own those? What a pita. I like simple. A few service calls cost as much as an entire tank install!
Here in CA they want all appliances electric. Solar panels on all the houses for new build. We just went through some powerful storms that cut our electricity for 24 hours and in some places 2 weeks. We aren't allowed to burn in fireplace because of air quality rules either. That shower to warm up before crawling under a pile of blankets felt amazing. We just installed a new tank water heater. You have to have a reliable power grid to go tankless and CA certainly doesn't have it.
I've had a tankless water heater for 18 years and have had zero problems. Great value over time. I will never go back to a tank type water heater again. I highly recommend a tankless water heater.😊😊
The main problem with an electric tankless heater is the amount of amperage needed to run the unit. A small 11-13k unit is no problem. The problem comes when you go to the larger units. They require large amounts of power and in a lot of circumstances you need a sub panel on your electrical panel. Most houses have 200 amp service feeding the house. That is the main downside to them.
Myth #1. I had tankless in my home for about 8 nightmare years or so. Finally replaced with a 50 gal water heater and it was a VERY happy day despite the cost. The folks that are the happiest with tankless are those who live in an area with no liming problem and or those who have the money to pay the plumber to come out for frequent upkeep. The things are simply NOT perfected and I'd be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested. Remember that I told you so, should you dip your toe into the on demand water racket.
@@Refertech101 Well, that's you. I'm glad you made peace with it. I used your system as well. One time I left one of the valves cracked a bit and the cleaner goop went through my piping system. It was a couple of months before that taste finally subsided in the drinking water. One thing I didn't mention in my epistle. The first thing we noticed was that the darn thing surged vicious hot water....hotter than it was set for to start, I imagine. In the shower, there was one spot on the water valve handle thingy that worked. A millimeter out and the water would go from hot as heck to warm or cold over and over. We put up with that for years until the unit finally died (an expensive part went belly up) and we go shet of the drat contraption.
My son had a tankless installed in a new construction home about 3 years ago, I don't know which brand. We had a freeze and his unit broke down. His family went at least 2 weeks taking cold showers waiting for replacement parts to fix the unit.
@@capt.sardonico2197 I just moved here from New York building a house in Fulshear and I was here during that freeze. I am getting an outdoor version tankless water heater. If you lose power, you lose hot water because don’t you need the igniter to start it?
I have tankless in 2 homes. My main complaint was waiting for a minute or more to get warm water just to wash my face or brush my teeth. My solution was to install a small 2.5 gal tank under the double sink setup. Now, I get hot water IMMEDIATELY but I don’t turn on my tankless heater and waste water. Most other appliances use much more water so time is not a factor. These small tanks can just plug into a regular outlet and they use only 1500 watts. Love it.
You will never convince me to go tankless. I maintain my traditional 40 gallon tank and have years and years of service with zero issues. Good flushing, change anode and overpressure valve and nipples and that’s it. I guarantee a tankless would have been a huge difference.
Huge difference is right. The fact that is only uses gas when running I’m water is about the only reason I need to mention. I switched and would never go back.
@@jmoore4211 - - do you want to talk about all the maintenance you have to do on it. My little pilot light is such a huge draw. A $500 tank with maybe $100 in maintenance over the last twelve years. Tell me what your cost has been. From google…. You are right a lot of gas 😀 ‘The units themselves use a lot of gas all at once. A typical whole-house unit burns around 200,000 BTUs per hour. Compared to your 50-gallon gas-fired, tank-type water heater, which burns around 50,000 BTUs per hour, that's a lot of fuel.’
@@condor5635 good luck getting a water heater for 500 bucks today. Just saying they save money and give u hot water non stop. I have my wife and two teenage girls in the house. I’m the last one to shower so wouldn’t work with a tank heater
The flame varies as it’s heating so it’s not a constant gas usage. It’s proven they use less gas in a year. I’m glad u like the tank, I’m just saying I love the tankless
@@jmoore4211 - Funny I got a wife and two teenage girls as well. All four of us don’t typically take showers at the same time or right after each other. I think I can remember once or twice where I had to wait maybe 15 minutes to get some hot water but it’s never been an issue. It doesn’t matter really whatever makes you happy! Lots of people love the tankless. Lots of people like the old style. To each his own. Have a great day!
I have 2 Rinnai units in my house. They work great but the recirculating pump is a must. The pump should be scheduled to run during the hours of heavy use like 6 am to 10 am and 6 pm to 11 pm otherwise it will wear prematurelly (the pump not the unit). The advice came directly from Rinnai support.
Here is what I ran in to when I investigated tankless water heaters during my recent remodel. For context, the existing water heater was a 50 gallon gas tank unit located in the middle of a 2-story house, which is built on a concrete slab. The problems were: 1. The existing exhaust vent could not be used, the building code required replacement, which would have required opening up walls for 2 stories and penetrating the roof. The new vent pipes would not fit inside of 2x4 walls, so the walls would have to be demoed, furred out, and replaced to make space for the vent. 2. A new drain would be required from the middle of the house to somewhere outside, which meant trenching out the concrete slab. 3. I would have had to replace the gas pipe to the heater. and 4, after all that, it would not work if the power failed, despite being a gas heater. The only practical way to have installed a tankless would have been to locate the unit outside of the house somewhere, run an exhaust pipe up the side of the house, penetrating the eaves, and then build an enclosure to protect it. That approach would have required extensive replumbing to get the hot water back into the house, either by opening up more walls or trenching out the slab. Out of three plumbing contractors that estimated the job, two declined to bid and one came in with a proposal that was crazy expensive. So the house still has a tank.
How about an electric tankless on demad unit. The Bigest issue is runnig 2 8 AWG wires to it and replacing for a 50 Amp breaker in the pannel. Unlimited hot water, only on demand, whithout venting. Could install one for lower floor and a second one for upstairs depending how big your house is. This electric units are very small and fit eveywere. Have 5 units installed in several house/apartments and last about 10 Yrs and repairable( they go for about $220) Instaled them myself. The gas units also work with electricity so either won't work if no power
@@WillyK51 In my case, electric water heaters would have required a main panel upgrade, and a new service pulled in from the street. They would use more power than everything else in the house put together. Also, this is in California where we pay $0.40/kWh at the margin, and are subject to brownouts and "public safety cutoffs", so we avoid electrical appliances wherever possible. Meanwhile standard tank gas water heaters work quite well without electric power - there is no electrical service to my water heater.
I bought my first tankless heater in 1980. They have been common in Europe for many years. I'm English. The second one I bought not only heated water but powered the central heating also. We use radiators in England. I love the fact that you can sit in the shower all day if you want. No tank to run out.
Great content as always Eric!
Thank you for mentioning water quality. Tip for others, make sure the water conditioning equipment will allow and condition/treat at the required flow without to much pressure drop.
Great tip! Thank you for adding this.
What about electrical water heaters
@@billkerber4187 there are tankless that run on 220v and don't require any venting at all.
@@mechanical-hub In what areas do you provide installation cervices?
Biggest problem: using FOSSIL (un)natural gas for anything!
It is only a little less FILTHY than coal(!!) and WAY filthier than everything else (solar, hydro, nuke, wind, …)
USA must get off the fossil madness!
Using heat pump tech for heating houses and tap water is the future (actually it has been used fir decades in civilized places)!
District heating is another option, circulating heated water from garbage, minimizing dirty landfills… cleaning the exhaust is of course necessary.
We had one for 17 years and it never failed. The only issue I wish you would cover is the unit not firing when you open a faucet slightly. When we would barely open a sink faucet to wash hands, wash something gentle, the water demand wasn’t enough to tell the unit to fire. Not a huge problem, but a problem nonetheless. Great video sir!
Newer units have a lower threshold (due to increased technology allowing a wider range flame size), also try bumping the temperature setting down a notch so you are using ‘more’ hot water
That is the same problem I had with tankless. I wouldn’t do tankless ever again.
Usually if its older its is because either the flow meter is lethargic or the heat exchanger is having issues from either scale or age and not allowing to fire on low flow. Second older units have a higher flow rate to get the unit to fire. Also be sure your unit is maintained.
Navien is the only brand I would consider.
The activation of a tankless water heater is triggered by water pressure drop. If the faucet is not open sufficiently, the pressure drop will not be sufficient to activate the water heater. Today’s faucets may be a problem as well because they are a water saver design which does not allow sufficient flow rate to activate the water heater. You can overcome this problem by modifying the water
restriction device. Open up the hole in the restrictor until you achieve a flow rate that will allow your water heater to activate.
I had a lime coated tank that I replaced with a Renai. I love the tankless upgrade. No water softener needed. Every year or two, isolate the unit with the shutoff valves and use a small sump pump to run white vinegar through it to dissolve the lime. You will never need to replace it.
Yup. Exactly the same experience I had with a Rinnai. They make a great product.
Use a gallon of CLR in your tankless, and it will last FOREVER. My last RV trailer had a tankless and I saved on LP and had all the hot water I ever wanted. My Airstream Excella Motorcoach has a Cummins/Onan Diamond series liquid-cooled gen-set that puts coolant into my hot water system and provides 90% of the heat for my water-brilliant set-up!
Jesus is the only way to healing, restoration and salvation to all souls. Please turn to him and he will change your life, depression into delight, soul heading from hell to heaven all because of what he did on the cross
“Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Romans 10:13
@@HaroutBlack How is he about installing heaters, though? Is he licensed? How much experience does he have? How long do you have to wait for an appointment? I know a guy who had an appointment, Jesus showed briefly and gave an estimate, and we haven't seen him for years now. Getting tired of waiting for his second coming.
I would stay away from clr. It might remove the sediment but it might go too far. White vinegar is far cheaper and is a food grade cleaner@@Walkercolt1
I put in a tankless water heater 16 years ago. My plumber put in a “big blue” filter with a phosphorus insert and I have very hard water. I have it flushed out every couple of years. It’s working great!
If you get a water softener, your water will heat faster and you probably won’t ever need to flush it. There are several other benefits of soft water also. Check it out with a reputable water treatment provider.
Too much upfront cost. Only 4 more years and you will recoup your money. Then you can buy a new one.
I never buy into much of that crap. People don't live that long to make a difference. My last HW heater lasted 20 years. I win.
@@lostintime8651 guess you dont have teenge kids LOL
What does it cost to have it serviced?
Have been in our house on well 35 years…on our 3rd water heater which my husband (not a plumber) installed…think we’re ahead. Replacing a standard water heater is probably a lot easier. We had a 60 gal water heater when the kids were home and the last one for the two of us is now 40 gal…have never run out of hot water. Our replacement water heaters have been $150-$350 and our electric bills are not excessive. No one answer for everyone…there are a lot of variables like perhaps all copper insulated plumbing which holds the heat in the pipes when everyone is showering in the morning or the day I do laundry. As well…we have a water softener with a by-pass for the cold drinking water so it’s not salted.
All I have to say on this subject is that I highly suggest you get to know ALL the requirements of installing tankless way ahead of time. I learned the hard way that there is way more complexity to tankless than one might think. This was far from a simple swap in my case.
Exactly, which means you need a plumber and electrician to do something anyone with basic tools can do themselves. The hardest part about installing a water heater is getting rid of the old one.
Yes, thanks for tip. Sometimes you need a blunt reminder to do your research.
@@kcobabe In some areas you have to hire a plumber to install a water heater, you can't go buy a new heater and install yourself
@William Castleberry I would like to know where this. In the US this is not the case. I come from a long line of fitters and plumbers and they stretch from coast to coast.
I got lucky as my gas and water lines were easily changed and my vent went straight out the wall through OSB and siding.
I’ve had a Jacuzzi made by Rinnai tankless water heater since 2015 replacing an old tank heater and we just love it. Everything you say Eric in your video is factual. And I do recommend a tankless water to anyone that asks. The installation was a little expensive, but the maintenance I do myself is simple and easy and we are very satisfied. Thank you for making this video. PS because they last twice as long and so efficient well worth the investment.
I've only had one tankless heater installed, but I assume replacing it will be cheaper than the initial installation, since the wall mount and piping is in place, right?
The plumber also said there's a potential to replace parts of it instead of the entire unit.
So far it's been about 5 years and I haven't done any maintenance and haven't noticed any degradation.
if you live in a hard water area the heat exchangers get limed up and have to be chemically flushed......even when water softening equipment is in use.
Your discussion is great about gas fed tankless water heaters. You need to expand to include electrical tankless water heater vs electrical tank water heaters.
And please include comparison of electric tankless vs gas powered tankless
I was just looking for a comment like this. Exactly my request as well. I moved from one city that was abundant with gas lines though that state wants to ban natural gas (CA) to another state that where most of the homes appliances are electrical. Sure you can have gas but the city was requesting an initial charge of $10k to feed in a gas line..
Jesus is the only way to healing, restoration and salvation to all souls. Please turn to him and he will change your life, depression into delight, soul heading from hell to heaven all because of what he did on the cross
“Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Romans 10:13
This is a water heating thread. you're looking for the walk on water thread. @@HaroutBlack
Most homes would need an electrical service upgrade to run a tankless electric water heater, they need 60 - 120 amps @ 240 volts.
This unbiased review, brought to you by Rinnai...
Sad to see such cynical negativity. I don't think he was specifically plugging Rinnai water heaters, because he never said a word about them being better than others.
2009 I installed a tankless. It was great. I was out of town weekdays and only in on weekends. What a great savings. Always endless hot water with extra high usage on 2 days of the week.
I love the tankless upgrade. I’ve had tankless now in two homes, one in the warm climate of the BC and another in the bitter cold climate of the north Alberta, great in both. We’ve never had an issue with a shortage of hot water as noted in the video. I love the tankless upgrade.
I installed a Bosch in my family’s summer cottage almost 30 years ago.
I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Had to clean the pilot one time.
Provides plenty of hot water from cold well water.
It’s great. I can only imagine how great the new ones are.
@@billyjack8081 Boy,isn't that the Truth Billy Jack! Consumers are getting ripped off by these newer inferior products! And I believe it is intentional!
@@billyjack8081 old appliances waste enormous amounts of energy. Thirty year-old fridge needs to be dumped.
does it have a conventional pilot light, or is it electronic?
@@kenovryn Wrong...
@@RAREFORMDESIGNS A 20-year-old refrigerator could use 1,700 kWh of electricity every year, compared with about 450 kWh for a similarly sized new ENERGY STAR model. At an electrical cost of 12 cents per kWh, that represents a savings of $150 per year
I’ve had tankless gas for 8 years now. Totally love it. I do the annual maintenance myself, and it’s quite simple. I also have a filtration system to ensure a clean supply of water. It works fantastic. I’ll never go back to a tank.
A carbon filter will eliminate chlorine as well as filter out debris. Soft water will eliminate scale build up and a good water regulator will provide a consistent flow rate for accurate water flow adjustments. Water temperature is determined by the amount of time the water takes to pass through the water heater. If it takes to long, the water will overheat and the safety switch will prevent the gas from heating the water. Too fast, and the water won’t heat up to the desired temperature. My unit is designed for a flow rate of 2.5 gpm. I’m 78 years old and a former industrial piping designer. I installed my tankless water heater in the early eighties and have never flushed it yet and it is still going strong. That’s about 40 years ago. Still have the original bill of sale and instructions. My local plumber didn’t believe me till I showed him. He’s since changed his mind about tankless water heaters.
I live in Wisconsin and installed my rinnai tankless 2 years ago. It's awesome. Most issues are due to incorrect sizing, incorrect gas supply or maintenance. The larger units due require upgraded gas supply, and a plumber should be able to identify this. Although it's simple, look at your meter. You need a minimum 5psi supply for a high volume tankless. This also means you'll likely need a 3/4" supply to your water heater from a 1" main supply. This line should come before your furnace, which is probably on a 1/2" supply and probably requires less gas than your water heater.
I’ve had tankless now in two homes, one in the warm climate of the Deep South and another in the bitter cold climate of the north. We’ve never had an issue with a shortage of hot water as noted in the video. I would add only one suggestion, in my case I use an re-circulating pump external to the tankless water heater. It is a Taco brand and it has a feature where it learns your pattern of hot water use, so instead of always re-circulating it will learn for example when you normally shower in the morning and kick in before that time to have hot water available instantly. Thanks for the video.
I was thinking about a re-circulating pump but I was thinking to connect it to my bathroom light which is controlled with a sensor switch.
I have a tankless in my newer home. I keep my circulation pump off because the tankless would keep turning off and on continuously .
@@mattbowers3541 Replace it with a Smart Circ Pump or put the circ pump on a timer. Depending on your local climate, even just circulating a few minutes every hour can help.
Eww you take shower in the morning? Take shower before bedtime to get rid of the germs you accumulated throughout the day. Your bed will thank you for smelling good lol
The bad thing about my home,like Thousands of homes in Florida built in the 60s and 70s is the copper water lines are buried directly in the sandy soil under the slab. So I just checked my kitchen sink, it took one gallon of water before I got hot water. All the videos talk about the cir pump getting the water hot then shut it off, well that water under my sink might be hot for 6 or 8 minutes but if I wait just 2 minutes and use the hot water it’s already cold, the sandy soil just sucks the heat out.
I had a large Rannai tankless heater installed over 20 years ago. It has never failed - not once. It's still running like new and I've done very little maintenance on it.
Same experience
Time to change it out.
@@sniper.308 your reasoning?
@@peted5217 learn physics 36,000btu per hour or use 40gallon water heater. 200,000 btu per hour use tankless on demand. Gee wiz Peter hmmm
Upgraded from a cast iron boiler to a Rinnai combi boiler which is a boiler/ tankless water heater in 1. Saved tons of room. Works great and costs less.
@@neandertull6777 It's the i120CN. Live in a 1600 square foot town house. Works great for us.
Great review.
I have personally installed 8 so far in various rental properties we own. Best was mid pandemic AO Smith 240 160k BTU ($1500 complete) to replace the 80gall HW tank in a 7 unit apartment building. It has run flawlessly & I no longer receive calls from frustrated tenants about no hot water.
I installed a Stieble 24 plus in our Scottsdale winter home ($875 complete) & the gas consumption (kitchen cooktop & HW tank were the only appliance on NG) went from $165 to $13/month. & that was for the month of June when outside temps were 100deg & the temp in the garage was 115-120deg where the old HW tank sat cooking itself on a medium heat setting.
I installed 2 Steible 20plus units in a duplex to replace the old rusted electric HW tanks in a damp flooding prone basement crawl space. Both units were installed in the bathrooms of each unit ($800 each complete) & have run flawlessly for 2 years. NG was not at the street. Electric consumption reportedly dropped significancy.
8 years ago I also installed a Steible 24plus ($699 complete) at our all electric Lakehouse. Highest electric bill with a/c etc running was $71. In the same period, our Lakehouse neighbor went through 2 propane HW tanks at $2300 each time, he also had to drain them to winterize. He just broke down & went with a Steible 29plus.
On our larger homes I do install recirc pumps & the annual vinegar flushing is the only PM. When/where necessary I simply winterize with RV Antifreeze.
My BIL just had one installed for $7200, but at least he did eliminate 2 75gall HW tanks.
I installed my own in 2015. Rheem was the only company at the time that would not void the warranty if it was installed by a non certified person. I have had zero issues. Make sure you use the right PVC to vent, mine had to be solid core, not foam core like big box stores usually carry.
I agree with you, I have had a tankless water heater for approximately 20 years, no problems. I love not running out of hot water.
you are damn lucky, buy a lotto ticket now
I had a tankless in my last house and I loved it. I plan on swapping out my current tank heater to tankless. almost instant temp adjustment, endless hot water, takes up much less space. I've seen no downside.
Agreed. I installed a combi boiler and it was one of the best decisions we’ve made as homeowners.
My current apartment actually uses a big boiler. I've never had such hot hot water or an endless supply of it.
It's absolutely wonderful when I'm hurting a lot. If I ever rented another house I'd actually try to talk the owner into putting one in & even offer to cover part of the cost. Just because of how much it helps me. It's one reason I don't want to move even though I'm in a crappy neighborhood. The other is the convenient bus route nearby.
I'm always blown away with 40 degree water...! Here in Sarasota, Florida, our water hits the faucet at 85 degrees...!!! Thanks, keep up your awesomeness and don't forget to compliment someone today...
I love my Rinnai tankless. I do live in an area with hard water, but I installed a water softener to take care of that. I've now had it running for the last 5yrs without a single issue. I do flush the tankless once a year myself (very easy to do) with the flushing kit - takes about an hour. The main think I love about it is that I never ever run out of hot water! My biggest peeve with tank water heaters was the timing of showers. Most families shower approximately around the same time back to back .. and sure enough .. after 2 showers .. the 3rd person would be out of luck with luke warm water at best. Does not happen with tankless. I also live in a warm area and we are able to do 2 showers and the dishwasher (on hot) running at the same time - no loss in temperature (mostly in pressure - but that's not the tankless fault). Anyway, I highly recommend them.
350 to have unit flushed in Silicon Valley
@@Peter-td3yk I flush mine myself .. Amazon sells a cheap flush kit .. run some flushing liquid through it .. or you can also use cooking vinegar (lots of UA-cam video's showing how). The one thing I will pay for is to have someone come and clean out the fan and heater assembly .. recommended to do a general cleaning of those every 5 - 7 yrs depending on how dusty your area gets.
@@Peter-td3yk way too much to pay somebody unless you are just unable to do it yourself
We have two tankless systems in our house. One gas in our main house and one electric in our in law suite. The gas is Rinnai and the electric is Rheem. Absolute best decision ever to go tankless and both the Rinnai and Rheem have been incredible.
I worked for Rinnai and they did not make a total electric tankless waterheater
@GaBullDawg1334 "We don't make an electric model, because there are several potential drawbacks to electric tankless water heater units. First, the power requirements of electric units large enough to provide hot water for a typical household can be prohibitive." @gobdeep is full of shit
@@gobdeep they are the best , its not energy efficient to heat water when not needed , the thankless on demand is the way to go it uses a flow switch when your hot water faucet is opened, it then turns on gas burner or electric elements to heat water as need
@@GaBullDawg1334 I apologize, the electric is Rheem and gas is Rinnai. I got them confused. I updated my original comment.
Operating costs for the tankless are much lower for me. I live alone, and am frequently gone for several days at a time. Not paying to heat 40 or 60 gals of water that isn’t even being used is key. Still having unlimited hot water available when the whole family arrives for special occasions is perfect. I highly recommend the Renai. My first tankless lasted 10 years, but my tech said it wasn’t a quality one and replaced it with the Renai. Going on 8 years on this unit and no problems. Even the one that only lasted 10 years more than paid for itself in energy savings.
Installed an electric model myself , ran the required size wire and breaker, and what this gentleman says is the absolute truth, purchase a good unit , it saved me tons of money by not keeping a gas operated water heater filled with forty gallons of hot water and the tankless model I chose In electric works well in my airtight home when other appliances that require an exhaust outflow I noticed that there was no longer back flow of dangerous gases running up the side of my old heaters, actually the electric tankless has saved my life !!!!
Would really enjoy the difference between a gas and electric comparison.
Same here. Where I'm at, gas isn't an option. We have three people in an apartment with a compact tank (looks to be about 30 or so gal). In the winter, when the incoming water supply is extremely cold, we have to time it so that there's a half hour or more in between each of us taking a shower, which means that we're having to get up way more early than we really should so that everyone can get ready. Plus, we each only get at most10 minutes of hot water, because as the incoming cold water replaces the outgoing hot water in the tank, it's mixing with it and lowering the temperature of the hot water still in the tank, so the "hot" water isn't really even lasting for the time that would be expected of 30 gallons at 2 gallons per minute. If we could replace it with a tankless, and everyone be able to take back-to-back showers (or even better, all at the same time, since we have multiple bathrooms), we'd all be able to get another hour or more of sleep.
Same here.
Electric tankless water heaters in my opinion are not a good choice. To get enough hot water out of an electric tankless water heater you would almost need 120 to 150 Amps of electricity.
Agreed. I want to know the cost difference, especially since there is no gas available in my area. So I’m trying to figure out if tankless is even worth it in my situation.
@@DetectiveMartin it will not be worth it. I think temperature rise in the winter is only 60 to 70 degrees. So water out of electric tankless would only be around 100 degrees with about 35 to 40 degree well water coming into the house.
Thanks Eric,
I think you oversimplified purchasing cost. It is NOT a myth that Tankless water heaters are more expensive than tank water heaters (initially). From what I saw the cost lies more in the plumbing. I got two similar quotes last year to install a tankless water heater (including parts, labor, plumbing) and they were nearly $10,000, whereas a tank water heater was about $4,000. The tankless heater did cost more, but there was a huge additional cost due to the ""complicated plumbing"" of these types of water heaters.
With that being said, the tankless water heater I looked at had a life expectancy of about 20 years, whereas tank water heaters have a life expectancy of about 10 years. After calculating how much I would save in gas because of the efficiency of the tankless heater, and having to replace my tank water heater after 10 years, I determined that I would start saving money after 12 years if I went with a tankless heater.
I didn't chose a tankless because I don't plan to stay in my house for more than five years and it doesn't contribute enough to my property value to offset the cost.
But, if someone is financially able to tie-up $10,000 and plans to stay their house for more than 12 years then it makes sense to get a tankless water heater. (At least from my own calculations and experience.)
Note: The tank water heater was 40 gallon and the tankless was "its equivalent". Both were base models.
Hope this helps those looking at this video.
12 year ROI is terrible. Just for comparison, with an electric tank, I calculated a 2.7 year ROI for a heat pump electric. I don't remember the exact number, but it was something like 8 years for a ventless dryer over traditional, and similar to swap AC ceiling fans for DC. Most houses will have many other options with a shorter ROI.
Still, your prices are for new construction. (Or you're getting ripped off.) There's just no argument for swapping from a tank to tankless. Myth NOT busted.
The problem with your anaology is that you're not applying it to water heaters - where a 10-year life expectancy is minimum. So the first 10 years would be equal, whether you pay $4k or $10k therefore you're not gonna gain any ROI.
No one should be paying 4K for a 40 gallon typical water heater.
You could always just learn to sweat pipes, & plumb it yourself. That'll save you a couple grand.
@@mariatorres9789 Oh yeah - cause education and an apprenticeship is oh so cheaper 😂😂
Mr Eric, thank you so much for sharing your profession, as well as the info on "tankless" water heaters. My wife & I have been kicking this idea around to convert from tank to tankless; with this info, you have given me a more clear picture of how it operates, things involved to consider and the price point. When you said putting in a tankless is about the same as a tank, from price to labor, it really helped us to made a knowledgeable decision. We will be putting in a tankless system. Thank you for knowledge & for sharing. God Bless from Pennsylvania.
I believe he was talking about new construction and not replacing an old one, kind of misleading information.
Don't do it. They aren't that great man. You did hear him say this was a sponsered video right?
Make sure to check the electrical requirements with respect to your electrical service/circuit breaker panel. Not trying to talk you in or out of your decision, but just wanted to help with planning. Hope all goes well.
@@paulmendez7679 Thanks for the info Paul, with the age of our home (it was built in 1870), we are upgrading ALL the electric & plumbing before upgrading any equipment in the home.
We installed a Rinnai tankless hot water heater in 2003. Still have the same unit and no issues 20 years later. Raised 3 daughters and a son and we have never ran out of hot water. One of the best investments we purchased for our house when it was built.
The only thing I wish you had covered is electric tankless heaters. I'm currently researching converting our entire house to electric only. So that means both furnace/heat pump and tankless water heater. I know that when you go electric with a water heater there's a good chance you have to upgrade your electrical panel, so it'd be good to hear what that impact is from someone with your depth of experience. Thanks for the great video.
Depends on your situation but here are some ideas. First ask an electrician, not a plumber who should not be running new wiring to anything even if they say they know what they are doing. While they are familiar with some basics, don't let them attempt this.
Cost wise again depending on your situation is likely in the range of 600-several thousand dollars for the electric side alone. It puts a heavy demand on your system regardless even if it is sized properly to work with it.
Gas models are good and reliable and don't require a hefty install cost like electric does. I was very surprised when he didn't address this in this video. Electric for a tankless heater is less reliable, sure they work but after seeing them fail frequently and having to change them out many times I'd never go that route for this specific equipment in my home. Either stick with your gas heater or get a standard electric heater instead of tankless. The savings is very debatable especially since the newer regular tank models are so well made and insulated to retain the heat better. Weighing that vs the cost and the heavy load on your electrical system and the choice is fairly easy.
Hope this helps, an this is coming from an electrician of 25+ years.
I've got an electric tankless heater. You need to install a flow regulator because the electric tankless are far less efficient than gas. I have enough for a shower, but not enough for the tub faucet to stay hot. Mine is rated for 2 gal/min, but it works best at 1.5 or less.
Not to mention if your electrical service can not support the demand of an electric tankless. Some of them require a 100 amp service just for the tankless ! Your standard home has a 200 amp service. If it’s got electric heat then the service would need to be upgraded. That’s expensive. Gas tankless is definitely cheaper and way more efficient. But if you don’t have gas service then an electric tank water heater that draws 30 amps is your only option.
@@Conald_isAfalseProphet Why wouldn't be possible to replace an electric water with a tankless using the same 220v wiring?
@@jerickson49 remember the old days where people just increased the size of a fuse or breaker? That's a big reason for many fires. The breaker and wire sized are very different. An average standard tank style water heater requires 20-30 amp line with wire sized for that line which is much smaller than is required for even the small size of a tankless unit. Depending on the amount of plumbing fixtures / baths etc.. is usually how a tankless is sized. Some tankless for a medium sized home may require wiring that can handle multiple parallel lines.
For example, a home may be fine with a typical water heater that requires a double pole 25 amp line but the same home for a tankless may require two double pole 40 or 60 amp lines equivalent to 80-120 amps depending on the tankless requirements.
If someone has gas now, chances are their home didn't need to account for an electrical load of any appliances that are now gas so a 100-200 amp service can't even handle an addition of 1 major appliance like a range, furnace, dryer, pool heater or water heater.
Also they won't pass an inspection if they undersize a tankless for a home that requires a larger unit.
More than you asked but hopefully you understand most of what I explained.
I've seen some dangerous attempts by homeowners and handyman types so please hire a legit plumber and electrical company to do any of this work if you chose to pursue this.
You covered a lot of good points for going tankless. There is one install cost that can be very expensive, and that is for the electric models. There are older homes in areas that don't have easy access to the power requirements these things call for. My parents had a handyman talk them into a having him install a tankless. When inquired to why the water was just luke warm, he said it was working just fine when he installed it. This is when I decided to start learning about tankless. The most important thing about the electric version is that they need a lot of amps to work properly. The unit that was installed was a smaller unit, but still required a lot more than a #12 wire on a 40 foot run. That's right, the handyman used the original cloth wrapped #12 to power this tankless that calls for #8 in a fraction of the distance. The framework design and flat roof of this house does not allow easy replacement of any wires to this breaker box. The cheaper option ($4,300) was to run power from the meter main to the heater with #6 along the outside of the house with a new disconnect. After that, the hot water was working great, no more fire hazard and I was able to sell the house.
Nice
Amazing that it takes an electricle engineering degree and an over taught person to install a wire. In the Philippines, everyone installs there own 240v electrical wiring and panels. Yes, the climb the poles and tap in wearing sandals. No gloves. I asked them, is this grounded, does it have a neutral. Answer, it works. Who cares. 4 years no problems. Two wires coming in to a panel. Your government has you overprotected so they can make you pay.
SCREWED BLUE by the not so handyman. Put the tank one back in on the 12g wires for $500 or less.
The biggest cost for gas tankless water heaters is not the unit. It is the special vent pipe that is required. Unless you are fortunate enough to be able to mount on an exterior wall and vent directly through the wall to the outside, the pipe cost (including elbows, collars, and flashing) will run more than the gas unit itself. I speak from experience.
I’ve got the Rinnai non condensing unit now 5 yrs old . Yes once a year I run vinegar through it to maintain it. The cost savings on my gas bill is very noticeable over a tank unit. We love the fact that we never run out of hot water and can do laundry,dishes and shower at the same time.
I had a new gas tank type water heater installed about 10 years ago and it was $1200 for everything. They wanted over $4,000 for a tankless. I don't know of the costs now but I would say back then there was a very big difference in price
I think it depends a lot on how much vent work you need done or if they need to increase the size of the gas lines (or the electrical work you'd need to run electric which can take up to 150 amps).
I think it depends on who is in charge of ripping you off. The number for both of those seems high. You must be in blue state.
I too am an HVAC technician.
I have a tank water heater.
Can you imagine why...
If you have a tank heater and want to go tankless. you have to repipe the water, gas, install a flue to outside, have to watch for windows, and run power for it. Costs add up quickly and for what? Power goes out, no hot water. Want to take a shower and someone turns on the laundry or dishwasher, tempered water. Been a plumber for 40 years. You dont need high tech and a computer board to make hot water. Havent seen a tankless yet that lasts as long as a tank water heater.
I've built quit a few custom homes and never found the tankless heater was able to justify the added cost. Even over the life of both tanked and tankless heaters the savings from the tankless heater never made up for the difference in cost. The only reason for the difference in cost, in my opinion, is greed on the part of the tankless companies.
I installed one 18 years ago and after a year I replaced it with a tank heater because if you reduced the hot water in the shower it would often turn off the unit which left you with cold water unless you increased the hot water flow again. The incoming water in the summer time here is pretty warm so you need very little hot water.
hopefully current models have a adjustment so you can control the pressure at which the unit turns off and on....
Not a problem on current tankless heaters.
Then you didn't have the correct unit for your application and low flow isn't an issue with current units
Why not just turn the cold water up ?
@@mariacompton1416 I think you missed something here, reread my post
Most don't enjoy the cold water plugs between hot water usage. Search Cold Water Sandwiching on youtube
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
and a Union Plumber dont come Cheap
A comprehensive video and I learned a lot about tankless, EXCEPT for the cost.
A water heater in Canada is about 7-800 bucks, I change them every 10 years or so.
Tankless Rinnais are very expensive here, next door neighbour paid $11K to have one installed.
The units are around $6-8K to buy.
I'm certain there are plenty of comments here to confirm these numbers, with the US being lower in their $
Not sure where you got those numbers but my brother lives in Fernie, BC and just paid $3200 total to have tankless installed.
rannai i120 is $3648 in Toronto Home depot rn and thats almost top of the line model. where did you get the 6-8k buy price???
@happytrails317 canada is a backend country. we produce everything for the US yet stuff here's so expensive
here in Chile I can say it's 99% tankless. a good one, (medium range quality) will cost about 400 USD. depending how big is your house, you may need two, mine is 1507 sqft and I need just one. they last forever, mine has 10 years, it's outside and only needed regular maintenance every couple of years, maybe less, brand: Junkers.
Just went with a tankless water heater but I want to clarify one thing. This is later 2023 and the price of a good tank electric water heater was round $2,000 to $3,000 installed in my area. The gas tankless water heater we put in was a little over $6,000. So for us any type of ROI is basically shot, but we are hoping for a $15 year ROI, however time will tell. Our last water heater lasted 17+ years, and it is fronted by a water softener, so the hope is that this tankless will last at least 15 years. So the myth that tanks are less expensive is actually true, at least here in the Midwest. Again we went with a tankless for other reasons, but if cost is your number 1 concern, then you can save a ton of money initially by going with a tank.
Steve, like you I live in the Midwest. My 40 gal tank hot water heater is 30 years old. The wife and I grew concerned about the age. Our plumber, who in our opinion, is very honest said wait till it fails before replacing. Plus they'll install a new 40 gal tank heater for $1500.00 including the price of the tank and the labor. My decision of going tank or tankless is an easy one.
Even more so. A tank isn't 2 grand. It's more like 500 bucks. And they are stupid simple to install or replace. I am not fooled by that sales guy for a split second. Practically all his claims are wrong.
@@Antiorganizer I am only comparing the price that was quoted by multiple vendors. I have had people tell me a tankless is "stupid easy" to install as well. Having said that getting a near 20 year old tank full of sediment cut out and out from our basement is not "stupid easy" for someone like me. So again this is the cost difference that I was quoted and I wanted to let people know. Now are we happy with our tankless so far. Yes. But not because it saves it will have a ROI in a year or two or even five.
@@SteveMichael When our old tank went, I drained it, slid it out, put in new one in, and Bob's your Uncle. Used a dolly and help to get it up the stairs.
Tank was like 500 bucks.
Tankless is like 3 grand thereabouts.
Electric tank might cost like 100 bucks more per year to run.
It would a very very long time before the tankless start saving money.
Another problem is that once people invested in it and have it sitting in their house, they don't want to feel bad about their decision, so they make up argument to make it seem that hey came out ahead, when they didn't.
I bought a Tank water system for around $750 last year and installed it myself cant justify 2 or 3 grand for a new hot water heater
We had the horror of installing tankless by a brand called Eternal. It was an Eternal problem. The service company replaced the entire unit twice in the first year and then once every year until Eternal went out of business. The company was a subcontractor for Home Depot. Home Depot gave us a new Rheem 50 gallon tank for $120. We were afraid to go tankless again.
I've heard of them. They had lots of issues with parts becoming "obsolete" as well if memory serves. Something would break on the unit, the repair guy would come out and he'd say "Yea, it's this thing, they don't make it anymore, can't fix it", and the homeowner was out $1K (or more) for a new unit. Even when some of these were under warranty the run-around was horrid. It's one of the horror stories that have kept us away from tankless, but I'm really leaning towards it, especially when natural gas costs are SKYROCKETING every winter (2022/2023 winter our natural gas costs more than tripled for 4 solid months). They are still near 1.5x what they were in 2021. Thankfully we have a High Efficiency water heater, but heating 50gal of water takes a bit of time for sure!
If I go tankless, i want it to last a minimum of 15 years (that's what every tanked water heater I've owned has lasted, and I know people that are getting 20 out of them). Since I have power and gas to my existing unit, installation of a tankless should just require a mounting substrate put in, which honestly? That's 15 to 20 minutes extra work since all the venting already exists from my existing HE unit.
Jesus is the only way to healing, restoration and salvation to all souls. Please turn to him and he will change your life, depression into delight, soul heading from hell to heaven all because of what he did on the cross
“Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Romans 10:13
You are on the wrong channel. @@HaroutBlack
@kellymurphy-stevens9230 I think because everytime their tankless broke they were screaming Jesus.
@@HaroutBlackWTF does this have to do with water heating??!!
We upgraded our hot water tank several years ago, and against my better judgement (and the coaxing of my father-in-law), we went from a 40 gallon tank, to a 50 gallon, to increase our hot water capacity. Due to the fact that I like to take long showers, I really wanted to change to the tankless system for the “endless” hot water capability, but was discouraged by my F-I-L, who believed them to be too pricey, and hard to find parts. In the winter, I can definitely feel the difference, as to when the hot water is beginning to run low. Let’s just say, I made a big mistake, and should have gone with my gut instinct. The next upgrade will definitely be to the tankless system. Thanks for all the information, and confirming what I should have done in the first place.
Long showers, how long? I run my pressure washer from the 50 gallon, and only after washing two a car and truck it would start to get low. Not sure, check your settings. Still prefer the tank, no electricity required.
Stop wasting so much water and listen to your father in law
I've been meaning to make the switch from tank to tankless for years but kept believing it was way more expensive. I'm already on my third water heater due to the tank leaking. Think I need to switch to tankless now. Great information thanks!
You'll have leaks in the valves in the tanless too.
@@OldToolyya not the same. You have stock in the overprice tank water heater world? The price is a joke for tanked water heaters. Another industry that lies as it changes.
Get your water tested. It may need to be treated. It may be hard, and corrosive.
@@johngordon3882 I think it's more because I never flush the tanks and check/replace the anode rod. Now just last week my Rheem 12 year warranty water heater leaked after barely over 9 years. I did flush this one but only once last year when it started making popping sounds. I think most water heaters just aren't made to last like they used to be.
Looked into this about 10 yrs ago, cost was biggest stopping point. I might revisit the decision, Really like what I am now hearing seeing about them.
thx
By far the most instructional video I’ve seen explaining Tankless W/ Heater. I learned new things coming from family of plumbers. Keep on making this videos please .
One thing to keep in mind with tankless water heaters is to get one with a digital controller. The turn knobs are not good at fine tuning to get consistent temps between showers and sinks.
I had no problem adjusting the knob. I turned it once and noted how far it was turned and the temp difference which was 24 degrees. I wanted a 16 degree difference so I dialed back one third of the increase. So it took a total of two adjustments. Nothing hard about that.
I lived in Amsterdam as a child, from 1950 and on, we had a gas tankless hot water heater (called a Geiser) situated above the kitchen sink, it also served our shower etc. . Most apartments in Amsterdam simply didn't have space for a big hot water tank. The first time I ever saw a HW tank, was when we moved to Canada..
Yes in Europe they have been used for decades the old ones were very simple and trouble free
This is a very good and accurate video.I installed my first gas tankless in 1976.All the local experts called me crazy with the usual facts .Or more acurate opinions.Fast foreward to 2020.I moved into a new home ,had to do extensive repairs.I removed the 40 gal conventional tank and had a Electric tankless installed..Not surprising all the usual comments even from the plumber.Well the same result.
Great video! A few things- older on demand heaters had metal vents that were crazy expensive- that is where that myth comes from. Technology has improved since then. Circulation pumps may save some water, but are not cheap or energy efficient at all. If it comes with the pump then that is great. But for it to work you need water lines to go from the tank to the tap and back to the tank to create a loop. And the lines need to be insulated. And the pump runs constantly even when no one is at home. That all costs money. I work for a builder and we have installed these systems in million dollar houses and usually they turn them off because of the crazy power bill.
No to everything that you said. Circulation pumps are a couple of hundred bucks and you need no extra lines. Technology has improved and the need for return lines is a thing of the past. My house is a little tech heavy and we use Amazon's Alexa Dots to do all kinds of things. You'll need the least expensive Dot that they make ($20) and a Tapo wireless switch. Get a 120 volt recirculation pump, install it, plug the Tapo into the closest receptical, and plug the pump into the switch. About 20 minutes before you want to use whatever hot water that is too far from the water heater, you tell Alexa to run the pump for 20 minutes. The pump runs for 20 minutes and then shuts off. You jump in the shower and the hot water is right there waiting for you. There will be some setup of all of your new devices but once it's done, you don't need to touch them again. I use the Dot/Tapo combination to turn lights on and off (and dim them if you have dimmable bulbs), turn on a small electric heater in my garage, run the pump, turn my garage exhaust fan on and off) and the Dot by itself to control our TVs.
@@RMartin631 How do you do it without a return line? Dump the water down the drain? Planning ahead for 20 minute wouldn't work for me.
@@kevinjackson4464, they use a special manifold that passes the water from the hot pipe to the cold pipe. The water just goes in a loop through the house pipes. I'm not sure what your need for hot water is that you can't wait 20 minutes but if that's the case, you could install a smaller electric tankless heater at the point of need. Our issue is the tank is at one end of our house and one of our bathrooms is at the other end of the house. The kitchen is in between. Since installing the recirulation pump we haven't noticed any increase in electric usage but our water usage has gone down. We use a Watts Premier Instant Hot Water Recirculating Pump System with Built-In Timer, but we don't use the timer.
@@RMartin631 Makes sense, thank you. I wonder why nobody thought of that long ago. Does it warm up the cold water?
@@kevinjackson4464, not enough to where we notice it. We're in the middle of winter and the cold water coming out of the taps is 55°. We're going to install a propane powered tankless when and if our current electric powered CWH goes bad. We're going to buy the tankless now and just set it aside until we need it. We have a garage apartment and that has a 40 gallon electric powered CWH and we already have a electric powered tankless ready to go for that one. We were doing some drywall work in the kitchen and ran the correct size wires for that tankless then.
Well, that was a great sales pitch. When I recently choose to stay with my conventional tank style water heater, the deciding factor for me, which he didn't talk about, was the recommended preventive maintenance for tankless units. My old unit went 23 years using supply water with a high TDS reading requiring virtually no preventive maintenance. It probably would have lasted longer had I flushed it annually and replaced the anode but even 15 years like the one he cut into would have been enough for me avoid the labor-intensive tankless units.
Not on the new ones
Absolutely correct. If you do not supply conditioned water to the tankless water heater you will have nothing but problems with it. And with plumbers charging between 150.00-200.00 for a service call, any savings by converting to a tankless system will soon be lost.
tankless are good for nothing...........Put one in bosses house, had maybe 40 ft run, water never got hottttt,,,luke warm
@@ttfahd did he turn the temp up on it? They are just like the traditional water heaters that come with a thermostat.
I switched to tankless from electric after going through 2 electrics in 6yrs. The first had been in the house for 15yrs before I bought it and it died my second yr. The second one rotted out in 4yrs. My tankless has been in place 8yrs with no issues. I flush it every 2 yrs. It takes about 30min to do. Fortunately I work for a propane company so I can borrow the flush kit without having to pay a service call. You can buy the flush kit for about $150-200 or you can make one for cheaper money. All you need is a couple gallons of white vinegar to flush through the system. Not a lot of maintenance in my opinion! I have high iron content in my water, by the way, with no filtration!
As I’ve already got a gas supply to my existing water tank & when it was installed, they installed a vent line as it was a high efficiency device, you’ve convinced me that a tankless is a viable alternative. Thanks for the info!
Natural gas sizing is very important...you could be going from a usage of 40,000 BTU to 200,000 BTU quite easily..find a professional to size this load before you make a decision on what tank you will use...you may not have much to change or very easily have to redo your whole gasline or maybe even your meterset,
Anyone who is as old as I am most likely always listened to Paul Harvey and his news reports, I remember him talking about these tankless hot water heaters back then. I am glad this fellow mentioned the water quality. Too many times people get the wrong idea about "spring" water and its quality and clarity. All water no matter the source needs to be treated. Even then it can still be bad quality. For instance, where I live the county does treat the water but it is still pretty hard and scaley and it destroys coffee makers, especially the Keurig's.
Great content, great discussion. I'm a super fan of tankless and have installed it some pretty novel applications. Our current home will likely receive an upgrade to tankless when the current water heater moves on.
When I did a tankless unit 12-15 years ago, the venting was VERY expensive as stainless steel was the only option. It looks like things have changed, but I understand where the concern came from.
Yes it has, so has the efficiency. I have a Rheem high efficiency unit that is good for roughly 6 gallons a minute and it’s vented via pvc pipe. You can hold your hand in front of the exhaust and it’s barely warm.
I had a tankless in Germany. It was a two-stage that clicked over from warm to hot depending on water flow(?) Showers alternated between cold or scalding. Real fun.
Genau. I had experience with a four stage unit there. I could feel every shift in the shower.
That’s the mixing valves problem, not the heater
@@barrywiegert9743 No, it was a showering problem. I'm not a plumber.
@@Greg042869 Yes! You have no idea what a mixing valve is do you? There is a valve behind your shower wall that is thermostatic controlled. It mixes hot with cold so you can’t get scalded. Educate yourself before commenting
@@barrywiegert9743 I did away with that and instead implied common sense. Its as rare as gold now days.
I had my first tankless water heater back in 1984 when I was stationed in, what was then, West Germany. I had two tankless water heaters installed in the house we built back in the USA in 2008. They've worked quite well. I had two installed, along with two HVAC, when the house was built because of the distance between points of use. Our units are rated at 7.5 gallons per minute at 140 degrees. We've never been in want for hot water. We use gas for furnaces, cooking, grilling, and water heating. During the summer months we typically use 0.25 to 0.30 dekatherms per month. They work well for us.
I went tankless and wondered why I waited so long and why traditional tanks are still even made anymore. Flushing once a year is not difficult. Now if you are not mechanically incline or lazy then it is coming to cost you money. My brother bought a new construction home 15 years ago and tankless was the only option. His tankless is still going strong with just flushing it with vinegar every year. His neighbor didn’t maintain her’s and it died in 3 years. The key to owning tankless is yearly flush and routine maintenance.
As a home inspector, the only reason I recommended a tank water heater over a tankless is, in the event of an emergency situation, you still have 40-50 gallons of potable water as emergency back up with a tank water heater. This is especially important in earthquake prone areas. Otherwise I've noted very few issues with the tankless.
A battery backup or even portable battery pack can run a on demand gas water heater if need be . I’ve ran mine on my vans inverter temporarily
@@dubu5820 I've actually got an old Data Center UPS near mine.
I Pulled an old one that wasn't needed anymore at work (moved to a room with proper central battery backup).. put new batteries in it, and now I run my internet, 1 wall socket, and my furnace off it. ..internet and wall socket so we can stay illuminated and entertained during a power outage.. and furnace mostly in case we have a power outage when we're away (OK.. it's for the Cats).
3rd party lead acid 'motorcycle' batteries aren't that expensive, and you can probably find an old second-hand 2 to 3U rack-mount UPS fairly cheap.. especially if It needs batteries (..they're god-awful expensive new though).
I suppose that's a good point, but it won't work when theres no pressure in the line if things fail elsewhere, so would it even work without you needing to manually drain the tank? And either way I guess, most people could just store a few sealed jugs of drinking water for emergencies.
@@EileenTheCr0w always good to be prepared for at least weeks worth of time if a foreseen issue is possible . I keep enough on hand for about that just in case , rotate out water with new when I need to . As for potable water to drain from tank , you would need to vent by opening a faucet or breaking a union at the water heater and using the bottom valve and hose to pull from tank .
If you live in a potential nuclear war/disaster zone ?
I have 3 tankless water heaters. One in each of 3 buildings. The first one was installed in 2000 and still working fine. Like almost all videos on tankless water heaters you only talked about gas heaters. All 3 of mine are electric. The electrics are probably not quite as efficient as gas but what can you do when gas is not available. What I love about the systems is that they use NO electricity when no one is running hot water.
actually electric is more efficient, not not by much but it is. In my area however kwh are much more expensive than gas.
Does gas continue use when taps are not running....or is that unique to electric???
Lookin @ getting first tankless in couple weeks
@@jeffcale5169 neither is used when taps are off. This is one of the big benefits. If you are gone all day or a whole weekend they don’t periodically run to keep a whole tank hot for an empty house. Tankless just sits there using no gas or electricity until someone comes home and opens a tap.
@@danwake4431 thanks for feedback!!!!
20 years in the trade as a wholesale supplier here, only problem I see personally with this video is Rinnai. Boy those things are a treat to work on compared to say, Navien, or any other brand for that matter. It’s like taking apart a German sports car.
re: Water quality: I have a hard water problem, and due to original construction constraints, I haven't been able to treat the water properly (still working on a solution). As a result, I've been flushing the water heater (Rinnai tankless, recirculating, condensing) with vinegar about every two to three months to mitigate the impact. The sentiment problem will impact any water heater, but since tankless heaters have no water tanks to trap sentiment, it's immediately flushed into the plumbing system, fouling fixtures, check valves, and anything else in the system. The solution I came up with is a spin down strainer at the EXIT of the water heater, which traps most sentiment, and can be flushed with the flip of a valve.. I believe installing these should be standard for tankless water heaters, i.e. it just makes sense, regardless of the water quality.
I absolutely love my tankless with the built in recirculating pump. I added a commercial water conditioner and softner to mine. As far as efficiency goes, the longer showers definitely eat up any savings and yes, we needed a larger gas line to heat the water for multiple showers. We have 105 psi water that is regulated to 65psi. That gives us plenty of pressure no matter how many fixtures are running. I'll never give up my tankless.
Your recirculating pump is also an effective heating system for the insides of your walls, especially if your lines are not insulated. I.e. you will find a significant portion of energy used to heat your hot water, is being lost. You can check this by reading the gas meter over a period of time when hot water is not being used. This will then enable you to determine the average energy loss when in the ‘standby’ mode and enable you to calculate this as a portion of your whole gas consumption. (Assuming you only use gas for hot water heating)
No one is taking away tankless. The FED GOVT was or is still taking away tanks from people forcing them to tankless.
@Denso You'd be absolutely right in a normal situation. My lines are 100% insulated and the tankless has learning technology. It remembers when you use the hot water in increments of 10, 30 or 60 seconds. I've set mine to 60 seconds. It will the run 15, or 30 minutes prior to your shower, or other heavy use. I've set mine for 15 minutes. In reality, I'm probably more thermal efficient than a tank water heater. My home is also fully insulated as well.
Yes, when I install tankless units I warn the customers that they will never run out of hot water -as long as they pay their gas and water bills, which may go up if teens and wives happen to take up residence in the shower 😂😂 luckily there is a power button on it that can be used in emergencies to get family out of the shower in a timely manner.
We have a gas-fed tankless water heater and have noticed a couple issues with the technology. First, you must maintain a minimum hot water flow in order to keep the heater heating. If you’re using just a trickle, soon any hot water in the supply line gets replaced with cold, and then you have to go all out hot to flush the cold water out, and water gets wasted. Circulating pumps would help but then the water heater runs a lot more, decreasing its efficiency. Second issue is that if your electricity goes out the gas water heater won’t run, (unlike a tank water heater which doesn’t need electricity) unless you plug the tankless into a battery backup UPS…
How old is your unit and do you do the required maintenance (vinegar flush)? I bought a house with a tankless water heater...that hadn't been maintained for years. I replaced it with another tankless and have had NO problems with flow or temperature.
I just got mine installed 2 weeks ago and I will say I am very impressed and pleased with the results. I was very hesitant at first due to the possible delay to get the hot water to each locations. But it proved me wrong! Here are my stats: upstairs washroom took 25 seconds before to get full hot water and now it takes 35 seconds. In my kitchen it used to take 15 seconds and now it takes 25 seconds. So really it added only 10 seconds to get full hot water at 140 Fahrenheit for each location. It is very quiet and gained a lot of storage space. My model is the Navien 240
I had my plumber install one about 12 years ago and it was the biggest electric savings I’ve ever been able to achieve. It never ran out of hot water.
What electricity did your tank water heater use? The power vent fan? Your tankless water heater uses electricity too.
Tankless heaters are far more efficient that's why it costs less .
One thing I will be doing to maybe improve heat retention on the long runs of plumbing is to cover the pipes in foil and then the closed cell foam insulation . This should (hopefully)reflect the heat back to the plumbing delivering hotter water while using less energy to do so .
Don’t waste your money on foil it will do nothing just wrap in foam if anything
That's dumb. Just use normal insulation like everyone else does. The heat you lose isn't radiant heat. Aluminum foil is a heat conductor.
We've been using a tankless now for 5 years or so and this is my observation since switching.
1) we have a gas tankless. And I suspect a similar issue is involved with electric ones. But we had to get our gas meter replaced with a higher pressure/volume unit. And we had to have new gas regulators installed on all the existing gas appliances (stove and furnace) to compensate. Because we're dealing with a monopoly, it took weeks for them to come out and swap out our gas meter. It didn't cost us anything, but it was a pain anyway. For electric, I suspect we would have had to have a new circuit installed in our fuse panel and power lines run to the unit.
2) Cold water sandwiches. No, not the kind you eat. We have a condensing unit and periodically while taking a shower, the water will suddenly get "colder" for about 15 seconds, then it returns to the original temperature. Granted, it's not *COLD*, but it's cold enough to notice and you need to be aware of this so you don't compensate by making the water hotter, because when the hot water returns, it will be too hot!
3) It does take longer for the water at the faucet to feel hot. Not a lot, but it is noticeable. I've toyed around with a recirculating pump, but cost wise, it isn't worth it so we put up with it.
4) maintenance. Our tank heater we never bothered with maintaining it. And when it was taken out of the basement, it showed! gunk came pouring out and into the back yard! Yuck. So, one of the things I heard with tankless is that if you don't descale it yearly, it will become junk in less than 5 years. So I purchased a sump-pump some hoses and a bottle of chemicals and a bucket. And every year, I run the chemicals through the heat exchanger to keep the scale at bay. This $150 investment I hope will pay off in the long run. And it's just 20 minutes to do. Then when it's done, I write on the side of the tankless heater, the date of the descaling to keep track!
The problem is with clients wanting to switch over to electric tankless from electric tank water heaters. But in all cases so far, all the fuse panels would have had to be replaced. They just didn't have the space for the 2 or 3 extra 40 amp fuses, or they didn't have enough overall amperage and had to move up to a 200 or 300 amp box. Plus, lines have to be run, which gets expensive quick. I noticed he didn't mention that.
Great video. I installed a good gas tankless water heater when my tank version went bad. Did the proper research. Got a better rated one, plenty big. Never run out of hot water. It does take a while to get to the second floor. Not an issue on the shower as by the time I get into the shower, it is hot. The sink however, I usually finish washing my hands before the hot water is present. No big deal. I did ad a pre-filter that did not significantly drop the water pressure as we have natorious hard water. Love the change. Won't go back to a tank. Oh, BTW, being an avid DYIer, I did install it myself and made sure that it was done correctly. Followed the recommendations exactly and watched many UA-cam videos. Dad always said it was not worth doing a job unless it is done right.
I've built a few off grid homes and used tankless water heaters. With a gravity fed water system there was never enough pressure to allow the heater to even ignite and heat the water. A pressure pump is necessary to increase the pressure in order for the heater to work requiring more drain on the batteries.
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All UK water systems used gravity feed whe we lived there and tankless water heaters were the only thing available. Off-grid in North America should be possible with European design.
I lived 33 years in Korea. The last 28 years in apartments and ALL had tankless water heaters. Apartments and homes in Korea are heated by floor heating with hot water by tankless water heaters. NEVER have I had cold water when I turned on hot water in the shower, bathroom or kitchen sinks. Tankless water heaters have been used in Korea for at least the last 30 years. Tankless is the only way to heat water for houses, businesses or apartments. That is just speaking from 33 years of experience and usage!
Our biggest complaint about tankless has been the "luke warm" water you will get at a sink when turning the hot water on and off at a kitchen sink while handwashing dishes. The delay for the burners to kick on after it senses flow allows bands of cold water to exit the unit before the water is up to desired temp. This results in a luke warm output at the sink. Outside of that we love it and wouldn't consider going back. I have considered a loop to the heater from the kitchen sink that will run for a set time after flow is detected, just haven't done it yet.
I have the same issue when shaving in my bathroom sink. See my comment above (or below.. where ever it shows up)
Sounds like they need a AI module ? 👍🤷
I have been using a tankless for the last 5 years.I love this thing. It is really neat the way you dial in the temp, and it stays at that temperature.
I lived in an apartment that had tankless water heaters, it was amazing. There was 1 water heater for every building, and for apartments per building, and a communal washer and dryer. I worked in the oil fields at the time, I would come home and take long showers and never had any problems day or night. I would one day like to have one in my house.
@@es-qf2gw that sucks. Sorry to hear that. Maybe it differs from brand to brand.
I also wonder if there's a big difference between the models shown in the video.
We have a model that looks more like the bigger one and it's a beast. It doesn't go full throttle unless you turn on multiple faucets. The water is always consistently at the right temp. Maybe the apartment that was bad went with the cheaper unit that couldn't keep up?
@@AB-ri5ix very true. Also could be an older model
"Sponsored by" says it all.
We install
These at our home builds. Dont expect
To wash laundry and shower at the same time. Or run the dishwasher and shower at the same time….
And we’ve had more bad circuit boards, malfunctioning units with Rannai than the new vendor. The recirculating feature creates surges of hot and cold water until the full heated water shows up. Also make sure they are not mounted on a wall not near a bedroom because they are loud and the circ pump running can be heard through the wall…
I installed an electric tankless water heater and it worked well. It required a lot of electrical capacity for the installation which would have been really expensive had I not been able to do it myself. What I didn't realize is how it would affect my power bill. It shot up at least a hundred dollars a month. I expected a little bump but it was surprising and not in a good way. On the plus side I was able to fill my whirlpool tub without having to stop and wait for the hot water to come back.
I have a natural gas tankless and I noticed a considerable drop in my utilities with the tankless.
that is very helpful
was your prior water heater gas fired? I am all electric in my heating/Cooling and Water heater. I am strongly considering a tankless as my 25 year old water heater is becoming less hot water and more hurry up and wait. so I am looking at the energy difference between electric water heaters and electric tankless.
@@BigHappysPlace I replaced a large electric water heater with an electric tankless. I loved the space savings but not my electric bill. If I could go back, I would have gone with a gas tankless. I have heard that those are more efficient but can't say how the actual dollar to dollar cost to operate would compare.
Yes a gas tankless is going to be the cheapest and most efficient way to heat water.
Costs are only comparable to replace a tank water heater with a tankless heater in a few circumstances.
The tank water heater needs to be by a wall, if it sits out in the room next to the furnace then you will have to move the water heater location to a wall or have a wall built. Tankless water heaters cannot float in midair. If you are moving the water heater to an existing wall now you will need to rerun the water pipes, gas line, and flue to the new location. (All at additional cost compared to replacing a tank water heater with a tank water heater).
All residential water heaters require a 1/2" gas line. Almost all (but like you said in the video a few don't) require a 3/4" gas line. So most tankless conversions require upgrading the gas line to the heater. (At an additional cost compared to a tank-to-tank replacement).
All tank water heaters are vented with either the metal flue pipe along with the furnace (or with a power vent heater PVC). Less than 20% of tank water heaters currently installed in homes are power vent models. So, a tankless water heater requires a whole new vent system to be installed. (At an additional cost compared to a tank-to-tank replacement). I am not even mentioning the size of the job if the basement is finished and now you are cutting open drywall ceilings to run the vent pipes.
Having the recirc feature set up on a tankless water heater diminishes the efficiency of the heater. Now the heater fires up (on the model you show in the video) a 200,000 BTU burner (that's bigger than most residential furnace burners) to heat and circulate the water to the sink. If you have a gravity feed recirc line to the tank water heater this is done continuously at no additional cost.
I noticed that you don't tell people that with a tankless water heater you have no hot water during a power outage, but with a tank heater you still have all the hot water you normally do when power is on. You might have to shower by flashlight but it's hot water.
It sounds like your tankless water heater costs you money in utility bills. Your daughters wouldn't be able to take super long showers if they didn't have unlimited hot water. Think of how much water you would save with 10-minute showers.
You state that you charge pretty much the same to replace a tank water heater with another tank one or a tankless. In Nebraska the average flat rate for replacing a 50 gal. water heater with a like one is $2,000. A typical tankless water heater conversion runs about $6,000. A 50 gal. water heater is $700 and your model tankless runs $2,700. If you install tankless water heaters for $2,000, put me in your next open slot and come install a tankless at my house. If you charge $6,000 for a tank water heater installation, how do you sleep at night?
The question I ask homeowners that are considering switching to a tankless water heater is, "do you run out of hot water on a regular basis?" (Like you, several daughters showering or a big soaker tub that is used regularly)? The main benefit of a tankless water heater is the ability to have unlimited hot water. But if you don't constantly run out of hot water this isn't a feature that is really needed.
Even with the higher efficiency of a tankless compared to a tank type you will not see that significant of a decrease in the utility bill. The majority of the gas consumed a month is by the furnace not the water heater. Most likely you won't even recoup the additional cost of switching heaters after 20 years of a slightly lower utility bill.
You got that right. If they need more hot water and they have a tank you can turn water heater up and put in temperature control mixing valve. In St louis a tank water heater can last 30 years +. No tankless will last that long. Tankless have their place like for the family with eight kids (8). Commercial kitchen Where they never have hot water at end of night to clean. A tankless cost three times as much $500 tank labor $450- $1000 or $2000 for a tankless A good one. labor $1500- $4000 Add softener or filter and If you have to move it close the door.
They make electric powered tankless heaters too.
Yes, I agree. One thing I noticed is that there is no mention of maintenance. I understand with a tankless there is a scheduled maintenance program required. If that's true, it might be very expensive, especially for someone who has to have it done by a contractor because for whatever reason the homeowner cannot do it his/her self.
I would love to see a comparison video of Gas vs Electric Tankless Heaters. I think that is where some of these "myths" are coming from. It's been a little while since I installed either type but never had any luck with the electric tankless being able to maintain a consistent temp and the customers ended up going back with the hybrid tank models.
You are right, gas heating works a lot better in a tank less scenario
Electric tankless .. YIKES!!! Only viable for small units
This is where you spend install $$$$ even a small electric unit requires a lot of large wire. right now that's big bucks unless the power panel is right by the heater.
Gas is not all over. gas is carcinogen, Gas can smell and leek . Gas will be outlawed especially large cities.
Electric tankless is great. Use several smaller units in your home, instead of one large unit. Cheap, easy to replace, takes up no space, unlimited consistent, hot water. Put a 1.5gpm shower head in, and save a fortune. The teenager can shower for an hour now, I don’t care. That’s like 1.25 in electricity only with a my setup. Units are like 200 bucks and easy to replace. If one does, the others are still working.
We had a navien for 10yrs. Combo boiler/water heater. Worked great and saved us 3/4 on our gas bill. However 6 weeks after the 10yr warranty was up things started going. Motherboard, valves, other stuff. Our HVAC guy , a licenced navien repairman, was so frustrated along with us that after 8 weeks of trying various repairs we gave up. We replaced it with an american made lochinvar. Seems fine so far. We'll see after it's 15yr warranty is up.
My 75 gal. Lochinvar, from early 80s lasted 30+ years, working even while having a small leak for the last 5 years. Not sure the new ones will last that long now.
@@chrisxiromeritis8654 Man don't crush my dreams I haven't even paid the 7k bill for my new Lochinvar tankless. 👊😎👍
I have a tankless, it's been in my home for at least 10 years. The only thing you missed was the annual maintenance, as mine is flushed every year by the company that installed it.
Many newer tank heaters also specify annual draining or flushing for sediment. Most people just are not aware.
What does flushing do? How do you flush? Water flows through it all the time.
@@jameskehn8609 the drain is on the bottom where sediment builds up. That sediment doesn’t travel all the way up and through your system as it’s heavier…
@@jameskehn8609 Water scale builds up inside and the unit is flushed every year with vinegar to remove buildup. Also the igniter should be cleaned as well, over time is gets dirty and eventually may not ignite the gas.
@@jameskehn8609 if you don't flush out the scale that build up you could end up replacing the heating unit, which would be very costly. Affects efficiency as well. As he said - that pertains to condensing units only. I have the company that installed it do it even though I'm capable. I'm not capable of remembering or scheduling it lol.
I've got the condensing style. I would never go back to a tank. But you must understand, there are trade offs. I did indeed have to upgrade my supply. I had an entire crew spend an entire day tearing up my yard, pulling in a new line, replacing my main regulator, and placing independent regulators on each of my appliances. The dual wall venting was expensive to me. Operationally, it works on a pressure differential. if the differential between the hot water request is not substantially greeter than the cold water request, No hot water will be produced. sometimes, I can be mid shower when demand for cold water is requested elsewhere in the house causing the differential to drop below demand requirements shutting down the heat exchanger and leaving me in a cold shower. Having to turn off the water and then turn the hot on full while i stand there naked and shivering waiting on the hot water to make it back through the pipes. Its a learning curve. I do like it better. But its NOT all unicorns and rainbows.It cost me a whole lot of money to get it all set up right after i hung it on my wall. And it is quite 'clunky' compared to the ol' reliable. But it is efficient and it never runs out. Oh yeah, it doesn't work if the power is out. so also be sure to install a UPS. That's another hondo. This is NOT one of Jack's "magic beans."
Yes, there are trade offs, sounds like you have some general plumbing issues that are making it harder on you (which I realize may not be worth tackling until you have to, but also aren’t the tankless’s fault). A small generator will easily cover the electrical demand of a tankless, which you probably want anyway for the many other things in your home there require electricity. But yes it’s a factor.
I’ve been in business doing HVAC, electrical and plumbing for 30 years. I have installed hundreds of tankless water heaters. I still would rather have a 50 gallon gas water heater in my home. They are more dependable, work when the power is off, cheaper to buy and install and we never run out of hot water.
All that expense to set up. Will you even be saving money?
I appreciate the honest review. I feel the review on this channel is a bit bias / kind of a conflict of interest considering it's sponsored by the product featured in the video.
Thanks for the overview, and you make good points, but after owning a Noritz condensing unit for four years, I'm not a fan of tankless heaters.
We renovated our house, which had two 40 gal tank heaters in parallel. Contractor's plumber convinced me to install a tankless Noritz to replace the two tanks ("instant hot water!"). I said I wanted to keep one of the tanks as a backup - in series, bypass-able, with thermometers on the inlet/outlet/return of the tandem arrangement so we could troubleshoot the loop if needed. Plumber said I wouldn't need it but agreed to install all the bypass valves and the thermometers I asked for because it was just extra income for him.
The tank heater - 10 years old at this point, and still going strong -- has saved me from running out of hot water at least twice or three times each year when the tankless has failed (about 10 failures in total). More often the tankless doesn't fail entirely but errors-out on high exchanger temperature, requiring a bypass if you are showering, and a "wait and reboot" sequence. But with the failures, I've had to replace an air-gas mix valve, an air fan (the turbo charger you talk about), the water mix valve, a control panel, a PCB (printed circuit board), and my personal fun-in-the-hot-attic event: full heat exchanger replacement. I am so thankful that I kept to my guns with the spare tank as I would have been completely without hot water multiple times over the past few years until Noritz sent a part to me. And although Noritz has warranted parts, troubleshooting takes several hours of my time, and in the case of the exchanger replacement, expensive plumber's time.
What you didn't mention in the water quality section is that tankless need to have much cleaner systems to operate. I clean my system each year with vinegar at minimum, or the solution when I feel like it. Our system is on relatively soft city water, but I have an inlet filter for both the city supply and the hot water return line. I do this solely to ensure the tankless doesn't foul (it did foul a few months after commissioning due to teflon in the line - that's when I installed the filters. Tanks, although they do collect sediment, are much, much more forgiving.
Kirk
I’ve had a very similar experience with my rheem. Several parts sent for free. several events of zero hot water. Always parts failure. mixing valve twice, circuit board twice. thermocouple/ sensor once.
I lived in Spain in the 80s and tankless water heaters were everywhere. Our family of four would go threw about 5 gallons of butane every two weeks. We also had snow. Our water was always more than hot enough and we never had an issue.
Nice explanation. Nothing but tankless since the late 90s. Another benefit not mentioned here is that the water outlet temperature never fluctuates, which is noticeable on the smaller, forty gallon units most commonly available. When the old direct vent, Navistar/Bosch tankless unit finally failed a few years ago we got a new Rinnai from Ebay. Running a thirty plus foot exhaust line was a PIA but well the effort. Since my "helper's" father wrote the plumbing code for our state, we did everything by the book. Never had any problems, although the old unit could produce much hotter water, which was unnecessary.
but under heavy load it will reduce the flow to maintain the temp. both types must be sized correrctly
been using tankless water heaters since 2001 (which back then I did have to buy units imported fromJapan) - is amazing that this would be considered somehow contoversial any longer
I found the cost of installation to be much higher, but not directly because of the water heater. The energy consumption of a tankless, however, is so much higher than a tank heater. We would have needed a fairly expensive upgrade to our gas line in order to support the tankless heater. So getting the first tankless installed would have cost us a lot more than the tank unit we got.
It sounds like you had a gas water tank and switched it for an electric tankless. Of course that's going to be more expensive!
@@izafanime If you had a tanked gas heater, it would have too small of a gas line to support the tankless. So you would need to run a new gas line, which could be quite pricey depending on the details. Tankless need lots of gas while they are running, but they run much less. Less total gas, but super high flow rate while running.
That's exactly what I've heard as well. That it costs more to run them. I thought it funny he didn't cover operating costs because that's really why I clicked this video.
@@MarylandFarmer. No, that is incorrect, especially if you go for stretches of time where you do not use hot water. Like most people, you probably only use hot water a few minutes every day. A tankless burns fuel fast, WHILE YOU ARE USING HOT WATER, but all the rest of the time, it uses zero fuel. A tank heater will keep burning fuel to keep the tank hot 24/7
That is a "depends". Depends on the size of the gas meter sitting outside your house. Depends on what size tankless water heater you are installing (BTUs). Depends on the other gas appliances you have already. I have a 250,000 BTU meter, the Rinnia needs 160,000 BTU .. this handles two bathrooms with ease which is my house. My furnace is 40,000 BTU. Got rid of that nasty gas stove so nothing there. Didn't need to upgrade my meter, or gas lines ... DEPENDS. Never AssUme
I bought a Westinghouse gas tankless hot water heater that is perfect! Been the best water heater I have ever owned and will never go away from them.
To fix the problem of it taking a long time to get hot water: Use a HW manifold placed very close to the hot outlet, then a Single 3/8 PEX line to Each shower or faucet. The 3/8 lines flow tons of water for one fixture And pushes the hot through the length of the line 4X faster than using a 3/4 trunk line throughout. Always use a manifold with multiple outlets for HW to save energy and get hot water fast.
My tankless system has a feature to circulate hot water though the pipes even though you are not using water. The pipes are insulated and it drops the 98% efficiency only by one percent. Hot water is nearly instantaneous.
Problem is, the sitting cold water in the line from the manifold to the fixture. And if you have a recirculation pump in your systemm, a manifold would render that recirculation pump useless.
Also, I cheat by turning on the sink along with the tub so my tankless heater goes into turbo mode and the colder water is bled from the pipes.
And a 3/8 inch line? If you are using PEX connectors which go inside the line, you inside diameter is even smaller and your pressure is crap! I have a 3/4" insulated loop through the house, and the only place you find 1/2" is the small section that stubs thru the walls, recirculation pump that is activated by motion sensors around the house so it doesn't run continuously, and even if it ran 24/7, based on the numbers, it would cost me maybe $30 a year to run. Small price for hot water at every fixture within seconds
Correct. The flow to a single fixture is under 2 gal /min so pressure drop is minimal in most cases and there's no thermal loss from recirculating. Hard to find 3/8 PEX, not at home depot so I use 1/2 pre manifold. 3/4 trunk lines are the worst possible choice but It's the legacy system installed everywhere. Always use a small single line to each hot fixture.
I would love to see you elaborate/be-specific on what kind of water treatment. Are we talking water softening, or micro filtration?
We live in coastal Alabama and installed a tankless a couple of years ago. It's awesome! My wife is from the Netherlands and that's the only system she's ever known. In fact, she was shocked when she saw our original water tank. She grew up thinking that Americans had all the best/latest technologies. I could only shrug and laugh.
I'm from the Netherlands, too . I still have not convinced my hubby that we need one... lol
Yeah, like our internet! A friend of mine in Russia (RUSSIA!) has 1 GIG download speeds in to her house, and 600 MB UP. Cost? $40 American dollars. Insane
I just changed out my electric water heater out of an abundance of caution. It was 40 years old and still working!!
Great video. I do have one more concern that you didn't cover. I have had an NSI tankless system for 5 years that runs both my baseboard heat and domestic hot water.
I've always wondered if turning the hot water off and on repeatedly in a relatively short time frame will harm the heater.
For instance, when I wash dishes, I don't run the hot water constantly for rinsing. I turn it on to rinse and off until I need to rinse again to conserve water and energy.
But every time I turn it on and then off, doesn't it have to go through its start up sequence all over again? Is this harmful to the unit? I do notice a cooldown section of water when I do this.
What are your thoughts?
Had one at work 20 years ago for a bathroom. It was literally right on the other side of the bathroom wall and took 3-4 minutes to get hot water. Hopefully they have come a long ways, as I have never bought on based on that experience with them.
your right no technology could improve over 20 years....................................
20 years ago you soughtered with lead too. Must have gotten to your brain hahahaha
Back in 2018 during an ice storm, my neighbor's tree fell on my truck and house ripping the electrical out of the meter block. For 3 very cold days, we had no electric or heat. The only thing that made us feel human at the time, was we had an old school water heater that didn't require electric, so at least hot showers were possible. So 2 years ago when I had to replace the old water heater that lasted 16 years, I put in another old school water heater. During the summer, my gas bill is less than $30 for hot water and the gas dryer. Winter is a different story altogether with the heat. I was told I would probably need to increase the size of the gas pipe if I went with a tankless. That being said, the faucets are on the opposite side of where my mechanical room is. If I did go with a tankless and went through all that trouble, I would probably want the tankless water heater put in the laundry room near the washer and dryer where all the faucets are in that general area. That would mean also running either a larger pipe for both the dryer and tankless, or an additional line for just the tankless. I'm not going to worry about it right now, since I've probably got another 10 plus years left in my new water heater.
In 2005 I had a tankless water heater installed at my new house. It had a piezo self igniting system, so no electric line was needed for that type of tankless water heater. I can't remember for sure, but I think it was a Bosch model.
@@dvader3263 I'm guessing today's tankless require power because they are so complex and computer-driven at this point.
if you have a long run you must hav a pump or a lot of water is lost..tanked have what is called heat transfer to copper piping etc they dont get totally cold the whole way..tankless water heater is off water is damn cold until you lose 3 to 4 gallons of water at 130 temp. I know this i use a 5 gallon bucket at tub.. I aint taking a cold shower.. 4 gallons winter time to get a real shower.. I use water to flush toilet.. Same with kitchen sink galons until its uable.. unlesss a short run.. raising temp to 130 really helped at 120 it was 5 gallons or more for a usable shower.. a 5 gallon bucket aint light.. but one gets used to it..
That 4 ft.² floor savings means you can spend even more and put a softener there! Even own those? What a pita. I like simple. A few service calls cost as much as an entire tank install!
Here in CA they want all appliances electric. Solar panels on all the houses for new build. We just went through some powerful storms that cut our electricity for 24 hours and in some places 2 weeks. We aren't allowed to burn in fireplace because of air quality rules either. That shower to warm up before crawling under a pile of blankets felt amazing. We just installed a new tank water heater. You have to have a reliable power grid to go tankless and CA certainly doesn't have it.
I've had a tankless water heater for 18 years and have had zero problems. Great value over time. I will never go back to a tank type water heater again. I highly recommend a tankless water heater.😊😊
I've had a tank for over 25 years and have had zero problems, with zero maintenance, while costing a 10th as much.
I would like to know more about electric vs gas tankless.
Good video though. The best I've found so far on the subject.
The main problem with an electric tankless heater is the amount of amperage needed to run the unit. A small 11-13k unit is no problem. The problem comes when you go to the larger units. They require large amounts of power and in a lot of circumstances you need a sub panel on your electrical panel. Most houses have 200 amp service feeding the house. That is the main downside to them.
@@captj3z now check out the power needed when the incoming water is 48 degrees in the winter here in New Hampshire.
@@godofplumbing Won't everything just be sooooo wonderful if those in government get their way??
Myth #1. I had tankless in my home for about 8 nightmare years or so. Finally replaced with a 50 gal water heater and it was a VERY happy day despite the cost. The folks that are the happiest with tankless are those who live in an area with no liming problem and or those who have the money to pay the plumber to come out for frequent upkeep. The things are simply NOT perfected and I'd be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested. Remember that I told you so, should you dip your toe into the on demand water racket.
Maintenance is very easy, I have to descale often, spa rinse and a pond pump and a 5 gal bucket is all that is needed.
@@Refertech101 Well, that's you. I'm glad you made peace with it. I used your system as well. One time I left one of the valves cracked a bit and the cleaner goop went through my piping system. It was a couple of months before that taste finally subsided in the drinking water.
One thing I didn't mention in my epistle. The first thing we noticed was that the darn thing surged vicious hot water....hotter than it was set for to start, I imagine. In the shower, there was one spot on the water valve handle thingy that worked. A millimeter out and the water would go from hot as heck to warm or cold over and over. We put up with that for years until the unit finally died (an expensive part went belly up) and we go shet of the drat contraption.
My son had a tankless installed in a new construction home about 3 years ago, I don't know which brand. We had a freeze and his unit broke down. His family went at least 2 weeks taking cold showers waiting for replacement parts to fix the unit.
Are you in Texas?
@@vienna844 yes
@@capt.sardonico2197 I just moved here from New York building a house in Fulshear and I was here during that freeze. I am getting an outdoor version tankless water heater. If you lose power, you lose hot water because don’t you need the igniter to start it?
@@capt.sardonico2197 i’m getting a Rheem RTG 84XLN - 1
I have tankless in 2 homes. My main complaint was waiting for a minute or more to get warm water just to wash my face or brush my teeth. My solution was to install a small 2.5 gal tank under the double sink setup. Now, I get hot water IMMEDIATELY but I don’t turn on my tankless heater and waste water. Most other appliances use much more water so time is not a factor. These small tanks can just plug into a regular outlet and they use only 1500 watts. Love it.
You will never convince me to go tankless. I maintain my traditional 40 gallon tank and have years and years of service with zero issues. Good flushing, change anode and overpressure valve and nipples and that’s it. I guarantee a tankless would have been a huge difference.
Huge difference is right. The fact that is only uses gas when running I’m water is about the only reason I need to mention. I switched and would never go back.
@@jmoore4211 - - do you want to talk about all the maintenance you have to do on it. My little pilot light is such a huge draw. A $500 tank with maybe $100 in maintenance over the last twelve years. Tell me what your cost has been.
From google…. You are right a lot of gas 😀
‘The units themselves use a lot of gas all at once. A typical whole-house unit burns around 200,000 BTUs per hour. Compared to your 50-gallon gas-fired, tank-type water heater, which burns around 50,000 BTUs per hour, that's a lot of fuel.’
@@condor5635 good luck getting a water heater for 500 bucks today. Just saying they save money and give u hot water non stop. I have my wife and two teenage girls in the house. I’m the last one to shower so wouldn’t work with a tank heater
The flame varies as it’s heating so it’s not a constant gas usage. It’s proven they use less gas in a year. I’m glad u like the tank, I’m just saying I love the tankless
@@jmoore4211 - Funny I got a wife and two teenage girls as well. All four of us don’t typically take showers at the same time or right after each other. I think I can remember once or twice where I had to wait maybe 15 minutes to get some hot water but it’s never been an issue. It doesn’t matter really whatever makes you happy! Lots of people love the tankless. Lots of people like the old style. To each his own. Have a great day!
I have 2 Rinnai units in my house. They work great but the recirculating pump is a must. The pump should be scheduled to run during the hours of heavy use like 6 am to 10 am and 6 pm to 11 pm otherwise it will wear prematurelly (the pump not the unit). The advice came directly from Rinnai support.
Here is what I ran in to when I investigated tankless water heaters during my recent remodel. For context, the existing water heater was a 50 gallon gas tank unit located in the middle of a 2-story house, which is built on a concrete slab. The problems were: 1. The existing exhaust vent could not be used, the building code required replacement, which would have required opening up walls for 2 stories and penetrating the roof. The new vent pipes would not fit inside of 2x4 walls, so the walls would have to be demoed, furred out, and replaced to make space for the vent. 2. A new drain would be required from the middle of the house to somewhere outside, which meant trenching out the concrete slab. 3. I would have had to replace the gas pipe to the heater. and 4, after all that, it would not work if the power failed, despite being a gas heater. The only practical way to have installed a tankless would have been to locate the unit outside of the house somewhere, run an exhaust pipe up the side of the house, penetrating the eaves, and then build an enclosure to protect it. That approach would have required extensive replumbing to get the hot water back into the house, either by opening up more walls or trenching out the slab. Out of three plumbing contractors that estimated the job, two declined to bid and one came in with a proposal that was crazy expensive. So the house still has a tank.
If you had a condensing tankless it can be vented with 2” pvc pipe
How about an electric tankless on demad unit. The Bigest issue is runnig 2 8 AWG wires to it and replacing for a 50 Amp breaker in the pannel. Unlimited hot water, only on demand, whithout venting. Could install one for lower floor and a second one for upstairs depending how big your house is. This electric units are very small and fit eveywere. Have 5 units installed in several house/apartments and last about 10 Yrs and repairable( they go for about $220) Instaled them myself. The gas units also work with electricity so either won't work if no power
JUST DON'T TELL THEM AND INSTALL IT YOURSELF ?
@@WillyK51 In my case, electric water heaters would have required a main panel upgrade, and a new service pulled in from the street. They would use more power than everything else in the house put together. Also, this is in California where we pay $0.40/kWh at the margin, and are subject to brownouts and "public safety cutoffs", so we avoid electrical appliances wherever possible. Meanwhile standard tank gas water heaters work quite well without electric power - there is no electrical service to my water heater.
I bought my first tankless heater in 1980. They have been common in Europe for many years. I'm English. The second one I bought not only heated water but powered the central heating also. We use radiators in England. I love the fact that you can sit in the shower all day if you want. No tank to run out.