Just sold a 96 YO old house with the top of the line Rinaii flawlessly operating for near 17 years. New house (3 YO) had a 80 gallon tank-type that was demoed and moved to the curb for the "recovery geniuses". Now have the same Rinaii model for the last 7 months providing likewise flawless operations. There will NEVER, EVER be a tank-type in my life again.....not ever!
@@bsignora6099 ....the tank alone is about $900. But, you also need the exhaust/combustion air ductwork for it to operate. My first unit had a through the roof exhaust/combustion air duct extending 3' above the roof while my newest is through the exterior wall. I prefer the latter as the ductwork length is considerably shorter by comparison. Also, the newest model is considerably quieter than the first....meaning the exhaust/combustion air fan noise.
@@bsignora6099 .....I might add that there is no such animal as a "tank". Unlike a tank-type which holds heated water and repeats it and repeats heating it again and again to the set temperature. The tankless has a copper exchanger that holds maybe 1 quart of water when not in use, but engages a blast furnace type flame to heat the water only as you need it for as long as you need it for a rapid rise in temperature. They are entirely and totally two different animals. One stores hot water and the other makes hot water only when you call for it.
You have to get away from the "mind-set" that a tankless is an INSTANT HOT WATER source. It is NOT unless the unit is mounted in your shower. I don't think you would want that. It was lightly covered in the video, but the wait time for hot water is very dependent on the lenght of water piping from the unit to your tub or shower. But, that is the same issue if you have a tank-type. You can install a recirculating system within your hot water piping system (very expensive by itself) to get the benefit of instant hot water supply. So, don't be misled by the "instant hot water" claims without a supplemental recirculation piping to each of your hot water points. Let me give you one other point to consider. You go on vacation for 3 days or 2 weeks, your tank-type will continue heating water to the set temperature regardless of use. Big loss of effectiveness and efficiency. On the other hand, if you leave the house for the same period of time, the tankless NEVER runs. If there is no demand....there is no hot water produced! Period!
The CONTINUOUS hot water system I used recently did not work on low flow, it had to be turned on to high flow rate. I turn my storage tank off when I holiday, ezi pezi They do work, millions of Japanese use them every day. But if gas will be restricted in the future you will not get your lifetime value. True ? ?
South Korea, same, tankless. Not only that, the floor heat is run off a tankless water. Called (온돌), pronounced "own dole" named after their ancient tech using rocks under the nice homes (hot rock), a fireplace outside the house, running the hear under the house heating up the rocks below then leaving a chimney out the other side. This is one reason sitting and sleeping on the floor is popular in this area of the world. I was in Korea for a year, had an apartment with this radiant floor heating and it's just perfect. PERFECT, I say!
It seems lots of people forget that the further your faucet is from the tank the longer it takes to heat the pipes between. When I renovated I insisted the design concentrate the plumbing as much as possible as close as possible to the heater location. My kitchen sink is the closest with hot water in 3-5 seconds, guest bath is furthest, takes 8-10 seconds.
When we moved into our house in Westchester, CA 25 years ago, the first thing I did was replace the 30 gal. gas water heater in the garage with a tankless NG heater. It's still operating perfectly today! it only ran the washing machine and sat idle for the majority of the time. Our gas bill dropped by 30%. I never did replace the house heater though, moving it outside (at the time direct vent didn't exist) was cost prohibitive.
I’ve been working on tankless for 20 years. And I make a good living coming in behind installers. 1. You’re wrong on the longevity. Getting 20 plus years on a tankless is only possible if spare parts are still being made and stocked. And if the unit is properly maintained. A tank can get 20 plus years as well if pressure, anode rod and water quality is checked. 2. Installing a tankless takes far more labor intensive than a tank unless of course you skip some serious issues, such as 110 outlet and gas line up sizing. Core drilling through a concrete wall is something not for the average guy. 3. Stainless steel is causing issues with copper pipes on the down range side. Also another point of concern is reverse osmosis and tankless. “What say you?” 4. Your comment on gas line is incorrect. The newer units will not shut down on low pressure. It will simply give you want it can. BTUs are BTUs and the gas meter will only allow what it’s designed for. 5. Your comment on running 3 showers at the same time is misleading at best. Delta T or temp rise dictates the GPM of a unit. By all means keep these videos coming as I make a living coming in after guys who follow your advice.
lol thanks for the input.. here in thailand we use one small tankless in the shower (75 to 150 dollars) ive seen many old ones still working fine... the rest of the house sa bai sa bai no have! lol
@@marcinasia1731 precisely. the one component I forgot to mention that affects the life of tankless and the need for descale is temperature. My Asian family and friends in the Pacific don’t use hot hot water on a regular basis. If the temperature is kept below 110 on a consistent basis the tankless will last a long time, without descale. Anything 120 and above will require water treatment and or regular maintenance.
@@marcinasia1731 that tells me by itself that you don’t waste water. Electric types (here in the states) don’t have the same recovery as a gas tankless. Americans want 120 plus temperature while using multiple shower heads. A waste of water and energy.
Thank you for this. I have a brother that was a plumber and has been gathering quotes for years. I have lived outside of the US for 20+ years. I installed one myself on a bathroom in the Philippines 15 years ago. When back in the US I still could not get one installed. Meanwhile, during this time I've had one that supplies a house my mom has replaced two large tanks. I currently live in HK and that is all anyone has. We have one about the size of a carry-on suitcase. I serve two full baths, a kitchen, and a washer at the same time. Repairs in 15 years, none. Your video will help my argument! Definitely going to send this on to my mom.
I installed a Bosch tankless unit when I renovated my house in 2006. What a nightmare that was! Never worked right. Would constantly go into limp mode, or not fire up at all. Bosch sent me a new ecu, didn't help. They told me I had to upgrade my gas line($600), didn't help. Then the water line from my well($1,100), didn't help. I had nearly $4,000 into this tankless water heater before I tore it out and threw it in the trash. Replaced with a regular heater, no trouble since. Never again!
Things have changed a lot in the last 16 years. In the early days they had lots of issues. I got my first in 2015 and was impressed with reliability and performance. Moved across the country and promptly had one added to the home.
That it wouldn't start or start in degraded mode suggests one thing, once you ruled out gas flow issues, air flow. Fresh air into the burner unit, exhaust out, any restriction would give you exactly what you experienced. If it was a non-condensing unit, the exhaust should still be quite hot at the vent outlet outside. If it isn't, you have a major air flow problem that needs to be resolved. Condensing units are a lot more efficient, so the exhaust will be cooler, as the condensing unit takes the wasted heat and recycles it back into heating water, discharging a small amount of water to be drained off or evaporated. There, you'd probably want instrumentation to measure air/exhaust flow rates.
@@spvillano I used the 4" stainless steel exhaust kit($400) from Bosch. Intake was also a 4" pipe maybe 5 feet long. No issues there. In the end, Bosch blamed it on my well pump. The pulseing of the pump. I wasn't willing to spend another $1,500 to upgrade that to find out it's not that either. I just gave up and cut my losses.
@@tlr-nut7275 that's even odder, as the pressure tank should remove any pulsations from a pump. A properly sized pressure tank both relieves cycling burden and pressure pulses. That nobody managed to diagnose it properly, downright bizarre. Sounds like a case of "lemme guess this, lemme guess that", hoping to find a resolution without actually measuring anything whatsoever!
iv'e been a plumbing contractor 45 years, built my house installed a 50 gal elec . i have a constant pile of tankless out back of the shop all brands waiting to be scrapped
I installed my own Rinnai tankless 6 years ago. I descale it once a year and I love it. Only downside was once power went out and lost hot water fast. I bought a UPS backup unit for about $100 and will keep it powered up for 30 min if power goes out now. Love my unit
A few observations from someone who has installed many of these... Condensing units cost more, but the cost savings on the venting oftentimes makes up for it. If you have a long run, it ends up being cheaper. Plus, I find drilling a couple of 2-inch holes is easier and more practical than drilling a single 5-inch hole. Also, drawing intake air from inside of the structure is not recommended. For one, in a tightly sealed house it poses a safety issue, as these draw a lot of air, and the air cannot be replenished fast enough. For another, you are drawing heated/air-conditioned air from inside of the structure and blowing it outside, which wastes a lot of energy. Tankless electric units do not require venting at all, and are smaller than the gas units. I highly recommend Steibel Eltron if you go that route. Tankless electric point of use units are great for locations such as kitchens, where hot water gets used often, especially if it's far away from the main unit. I have a whole house unit but also have a p.o.u. unit under the kitchen sink which provides hot water at the tap in about 3 seconds. If you have well water, there is no tank for the water to sit in and grow bacteria which is oftentimes what gives your hot water that rotten egg smell. (It can also be caused from having a magnesium anode in your tank). If you haven't shocked your well lately, you might still get a little odor, but it won't be that overwhelming, plug your nose, kind of smell. I set the unit at my preferred shower temp. then just turn the faucet all the way to hot. Most good units have remote controls available (some even have wifi now) which makes it easy. I honestly can't see a situation where I would ever install a tank in a house again.
Great you bring up Japan. I'm in the Army and the military installation housing me and the family lived in all had tankless water heaters. We always had hot water and the control panel was in the kitchen for easy adjustment.
15 year old tank water heater started to leak so it had to go. I installed a rinnai v65i about a year ago myself. The thing works amazing. I love it. The only things that surprised me was on the install. I needed a new vent because the tank system was tied in with the furnace. The plumber said it was against code to use the same vent since the water heater has an exhaust blower and there was a risk of back feed into the furnace. I went with the ubbink rolux vent system which worked great, but the cost for 10 feet of vent and termination kit was $500, just about as much as the water heater itself($680). If i would have realized in the beginning that i would have needed a special vent i would have selected a different unit that only needs pvc. Also as far as i was aware the gas line needed to be 3/4 so that had to be upgraded as well, not a big expense but still something worth noting.
Just to keep things real world honest... Power requirements. If we're talking about Natural Gas for fuel: with a tank and power outage, you still get hot water. With tankless and power outage, you'll need to power it somehow (not for heating element if gas but for the ignition). That being said, get a battery backup dedicated for $200 with 900w output (the tankless uses about 80watts to spark) and it'll be just right as rain.
Correct. Also hard water issue cause the sensor in the tankless to fail. The tank doesn’t. Tankless all around is better till you have issue. Once you have issues you’re waiting days, unlike tank you just run to HD and get what you need right away! 🤷🏼♂️
@@beaker2k unfortunate that you needed a booster to vent and they installed a fail safe. Lots of tanks are vented on short runs and don't rely on any electricity.
I've had a Rinnai condensing tankless for nearly three years. Yes flush it annually with vinegar. There are two issues: 1) Time to hot water can be a full minute or more for a distant tap. The partial workaround I've done is to install a one-gallon electric tank right under my kitchen sink, with input to it from the tankless hot. (I don't mind the minute wait for the shower hot.) 2) Minimal flow rate required: if you turn the hot on just a trickle, the tankless might never fire up.
I've wondered about that type of thing myself. Why not use a lower wattage main unit and a smaller unit down the line, closer to the point of use. How does it work out for you?
There is a switch inside the unit that will fix your “trickle” issue. I had a similar issue and Rinnai tech support was fantastic. If you add a recirc pump to your unit it will fix all of the waiting and it’s very cheap to run. That’s not specific to your heater, it has to do with the length of run between the unit and fixture which needs to be cleared (and pipes warmed) in the process.
@@DanielCaspi Adding a recirculation pump wastes a bit of energy because you are then using gas/electricity to keep the water in the pipes warm all the time. How much energy will be wasted depends on how long the pipes are, how well they are insulated, their size and length, etc. But then again, running the water until it gets hot wastes a little water too.
Matt, as a plumber in the northeast, our company exclusively installs Navien tankless water heaters, would love for you to review one of these. They have a 1 liter “buffer tank” therefore, don’t have to wait as long for hot water.
@@Dwb913 it’s part of the unit, it’s built inside, when going through the start up wizard, it asks if you want to use internal recirculation, external, or no recirc. When using internal recirc, it will automatically come on about every 30 minutes for a few seconds to keep the water in the “buffer” tank hot, therefore not having to wait as long for hot water or have a minimal usage to trigger the unit to come on.
@@eaglerider94 no experience with Noritz, it is a popular brand though. We had a few issues with the A2 as far as replacing the internal check valve on 3 so far.
When I lived in Japan in 1969, all the houses I visited had tankless water heaters, even the 200 year old house. It didn't have a front door, just a blanket as a flap, but it did have a tankless water heater.
I had a tankless one time. Didn’t like it. Noisy and difficult to control temperature. Servicing it was expensive and didn’t help much with temperature control after service. Maybe they are better now, but I will stick with what I know works well.
Trust me their not, I repair them daily and parts are still very expensive, and if a person isnt trained proper, they may take a few visit to fix. Two weeks on the average for special parts under normal circumstances
When we built our house in 1994 we installed tankless water heaters, that worked well for about 25 years. Eventually they needed repairs and it wasn't possible to get parts for them any more. We considered new tankless heaters first, but they were not only expensive, they required extensive routine maintenance--very finicky. I think they also required an electrical outlet, as do many new tank water heaters. We went with good modern tank water heaters, and have been well pleased. They have miniscule pilot lights and good insulation. No need for an electrical outlet; all the electrical power necessary comes from the heat of the pilot light.
no idea what people in america are getting shilled, we have had so many tankless water heaters here in the UK never once have we needed them descaling, even in hard water areas
@@randomcow505 I've got a friend who loves his tankless. Same guy who was able to say something nice about a neglected, overflowing and festering portable chemical toilet on a construction site.
@@randomcow505I would really like to know the difference in your tankless water heaters and the ones in the USA. I tend to very much believe you. There is so much b.s. sales here telling people they need or have to have various services that are total b.s. and rip offs for easy money.
Ya, but didn't you do a video a while back comparing the cost to buy and run different water heaters, and said best bang for buck was a heat-pump tank? We have Rinnai's in many of our rental properties in central Canada for a couple years now, and even with seasonal flushing and maintenance are starting to be problematic.The internal parts are needing to be changed often, so much lately, we have been switching back to standard tank water heaters.
Other than periodically descaling, what maintenance have you had to do? I would have expected tankless seem to have fewer maintenance issues. I descale every few years (water softener) and have had few problems, while with the tank I had issues regularly
For rentals, I'm going to agree before watching the video. My experience is to revert back if possible. Renters don't care or need endless hot water. They won't pay more rent and if landlord is responsible for utilities...ouch. Any plumber and many handyman can repair/replace the tanks at a moments notice. New units and parts are available 24/7. Renters aren't willing to wait for days/weeks with no hot water for warranty work or ordered parts. As a eco/solar(battery) ethusiest, heat pump is the only way to go. As contractor that dreams, both, tankless and heat pump. Heheh
Most tankless units have dozens or more error codes, many sensors and electronic parts which are hard to get replacements for in emergencies, not to mention costly after most 2 year warranties expire. We've had internal condisate problems, leaking exchangers in the combos, venting problems on really cold days, power exhaust vent issues or failures. Saying these things will last 2 decades, makes me laugh. I don't see the benifit in dumping money non-stop into maintaining equipment for the sake of endless hot water. As for efficiency, nobody looks at the btu's, the amount of gas required to heat a volume of water. The cost savings may be pennies over years. We required gas line upgrades to almost all properties where these units were installed which was very costly. They don't make sense to me or our development company, we stick with the basics now. (K.I.S.S)
I'm an American, now living in France. I just remodeled my old house (1903) which involved creating 2 entirely new bathrooms. I gave each its own tankless water heater, placed right in the bathroom. It keeps the piping runs very short, which reduces the delay when you turn on the tap. I'm super happy with the results. As a residential designer still doing work in the USA I recommend the same approach to my clients. One of the advantages is that you only have to run a single cold water line to each bathroom. Split the line at the bathroom to create hot & cold. Then branch within the bathroom. This means fewer long pipelines running through the house and less piping overall. Side note - although I personally prefer gas units, the electric ones available here in Europe work great and don't require venting.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 true, but with central, every tap, from powder room to bathroom all have hot water from a single unit. In a new build, there might be some applications where running a circulator system would work, not so much in retrofit builds though, save if such a system was already in place.
@@spvillano What I meant was they have been using tankless in Europe for many years but the units were smaller and usually close to the bathroom they served. When they brought them to this country they werent large enough to serve 3 bathrooms or fill a whirlpool but they have overcome these problems over the last twenty years. I sell quite a few and always try to upsell my customers if I can. Many older homes still have chimneys and when it comes down to dollars a chimney vented gas water heater is still the outright cheapest in the moment. Many of the homes built after 2000 had no chimney and also a fair amount of 2 man tubs were sold. The tankless is the only thing that can economically fill these tubs as the standby loss from 80 or 120 gallon water heaters is crazy.
I’ve had a Rinnai tankless installed 13 years ago and It has worked flawlessly. The only thing to get used to is that you do need to let the hot run for a few seconds before the hot water comes out. You are essentially purging the cold water that is in the line. With a tank, convection keeps the water in the pipes warm all the time, which means you are wasting money heating your wall cavities with your plumbing. A minor difference that I’m happy to live with.
2 роки тому+1
uh no youre completely wrong lol. it takes longer because the pilot has to heat the pipes and that takes 15 seconds easy
Convection from a tank does not keep the water in your pipes warm all the time. Matt even explained this in the video, unless you have a recirculating pump, everyone has to wait for the cold water to be flushed from the line before the hot water arrives, regardless of tank or tankless. The disadvantage of tankless is, as @J says, the little bit of additional time it takes to heat the water pipes inside the tankless heater. Because of that, even if you had a tankless unit directly behind your shower, there will still be a short delay before you get hot water. An "instant hot" water dispenser works by putting a small tank next to the faucet. The water in that small tank is always hot and can be delivered (almost) instantly.
@@hempelcx Go feel the Temperature about five feet from your tank water heater hot outlet, or the last metal part if it switches to non-metallic before then. If you have tankless, at 6in from the heater it is room temperature about 30 seconds after you stop using hot water.
Our natural gass tankless water heater is about 22 years old. It replaced a 5 year old natural gas A O Smith traditional water heater. Older folks may remember A O Smith had lost a class action suit for defective water heaters. I didn't know until after the deadline of the replacment water heaters because of defective dip tubes. We live in a city and have city water, but we still have a water softener. Two design flaws, no drain to flush out scale, and it does have a pilot light. But it has worked for 22 years. In 2016 we bought a vacation property and the traditional water heater was only 7 years old and needed to be replaced. Well water, so we added a water softener and additional filters to help supply better quality drinking water. I'll take a tankless water heater any day over a tank.
I add a WestingHouse tankless water heating 5 years ago. The installation was labor intensive because of the layout of my home but only spend about $200 in parts to do so. The water heater was $1200 which was still twice the cost of replacing the existing water heater but it did include a recalculation pump. Other than some occasional unexplained error codes that where not documented which was not surprising consider the poor owners manual, it worked very well and was very cost efficient. After less than 2 years it developed a leak which after having a plumber repair it, it turned out to be a simple fix that takes about 10 minutes once you know where to look. Replacing a washer of which the manufacturer provided 10 of, solved the yearly problem of the leakage. However, about 2 years ago it developed a new problem where it would not ignite the gas. After some work I found a wire had come lose so I had it back in service again. Three days later it started leaking again but this time it was not the washer, it was the tank itself. The leak was very small which did not shut down the unit and I could not find the exact location. The problem was solved with 24 hours when the leak progressed to numerous location at the top of the tank. While this tankless water heater was great while it worked the short life time I experienced was not uncommon as I found out while searching for a better replacement model. Unfortunately even Renie's water heater have people mentioning the same problem of short lifetime due to leaks. And though some tankless water heaters can be found for a reasonable price most with any kind of re circulation capability get expensive fast. Meanwhile the 10 year old water heater which seemed to be leaking was just a simple matter of tightening the drain valve is now back in use. My gas bill has gone up a noticeable amount but not enough that 5 years of the higher bill would justify the cost of a tankless. I love tankless water heaters when they work but the industry really needs to do better on reliability and cost. And good luck getting anyone to fix the tank at a reasonable cost. Additionally even if the re-circulation pump is not included, the water heater should have the logic build in to drive an external pump. Most external pumps don't have an intelligence built in so they have to be manually setup. The one I had learned the best times to run the re-circulation pump so you seldom had to deal with the cold water problem.
Spot on. And tankless may be popular in Japan, but that's also due to limited space requirements. Yes, I too prefer the efficiency of tankless, but reliability is also a prime consideration, and just a peek inside the average tankless water heater reveals *_much_* more complexity, with more opportunities for leaks... which are often disastrous no matter when they occur.
I've been looking into this for a while now, so many opinions and experience , I'm just one person living in the house, reliability and costs are the most important to me , what makes me worried is, if thankless fails, it can be really costly, i can buy and install tank myself, but i can't do same with tank-less... and labour cost is very expensive...
Matt you should address electric tankless units as well, not everyone has natural gas line, the electric units require a ton of startup electricity and significant electrical upgrades are needed
@@shawnd567 That is interesting where I am in TX we only have Elec. I lived in Australia and built my first house back in 1986 and we had tankless then and love it. My issue with Elec as was stated above the cost is not practical. So you are suggesting a heat pump water heater I have heard of them on This Old House and Matt has suggested them before as well. Thanks
@@richardgarrow9260 not all of TX has electric only, although that is spotty and equally true in rural areas nationwide. Still, propane is an option. Of course, masturbating with a cheese grater's an option as well. It all comes down to what you want to pay equipping the home with and a cost/benefit analysis. For most, running gas lines wouldn't be worth the expense, save with new construction.
I had a tankless one 2 houses ago, it was fantastic! used it for 2years before i moved. only had one issue, fixed it myself. I also had vary hard water. wired up the remote in the bathroom. 103 deg for showers, only using hot water. it was very nice bieng able to do laundry all afternoon then go right to the shower. Oh and the kid or wife wants to take a bath right before you shower?? its got your back! I plan on replacing the tanked one in my current house this fall.
I bought a Rheam tankless water heater first. I timed my furthest shower it was 15 seconds to get hot water. I priced out a Rinnai, went for the $700 cheaper Rheam. While the Rheam did hold up for for the first 18 month. Once I started having issues “Exhausting” errors. Nothing is worse than mid shower bam ice cold shower. The repair was easy, but did take a few weeks to figure out. My next house I’m currently designing will have a tankless water heater again. The maintenance does take longer on a tankless than a conventional water heater. I did pay the extra money for the easy flush valves. I also have a hvac license so I can buy contractor grade descaling liquid relatively cheap.
I have tankless for 11 months now. Love it. And I just did the annual flush/descaling. Piece of cake. Like anything else, watch plenty of youtube videos to get familiar with all the steps including cleaning the filter before you start. My only beef is the time it takes for the hot water to reach the faucet. So in the morning while brushing my teeth, I fill up the sink. When the water is warm, I use it for multiple things before pulling the plug.
I'm less loyal to a brand name than I am to quality. Currently, they're still maintaining high quality, but should that ever change, I'd not slavishly stick with a failing brand, but be loyal to those who showed loyalty to their investors and customers by keeping the quality up. I'm going through that now with, of all simpleton things, a damned coffee pot. Warranty expired, the heater opened and replacements are not available. Think I'll stick with that brand or the previous brand that also failed after a year? Nope, I'll go back to my percolator first. And yes, they're entirely different companies, I check the brand corporate ownership. Although, "American spaceship, Russian spaceship, all the same. All made with parts from ____!"
I've had my Renee tankless waterheater for almost 20 years. Every point made on this video is spot on. It's small size allowed us to install it in a laundry room near both bathrooms and kitchen so it takes far less time to get the hot water than when it was in the basement.
I regret switching to tankless. My experience is different from yours. First, it was expensive. A little over three times replacing the tank. The unit I installed was rated to supply more than two shows at a time. It does not. It does take longer to get hot water than the tank version. The first drop of water out of the tankless is at the same temperature as the intake water whereas the first drop out of a tank is at the tank temperature. Big difference. If I shave and then immediately take a shower I will get a blast of cold water. While shaving the unit cools off meaning the hot water in the pipe will have a slug of cold water coming before the unit starts putting out hot water again. So I waste water while waiting for that blast of cold water to pass. With a tank I set the temperature to 130 degrees. The tankless has a maximum temperature of 120 degrees. I would prefer hotter water. The saving in the gas bill is about $9 per month, however, the plumber who installs it charges $240 for the recommended bi-annual descaling. Bottom line the operation is more expensive than the tank, takes longer to get hot water, only allows one shower at a time, and wastes a lot of water heating up. If this unit goes bad I will go back to a tank.
When a client calls me to install a tankless I give three scenarios. 1. Space; do you absolutely have to have the space. 2. How often are you changing out your tank? If it’s less than 8 years then you’re a candidate for an assessment. 3. Home; are you always gone? Some of my clients are gone 3-9 months out of the year. Then my final question is do have to be reminded to change the oil in your car??? I personally won’t install a tankless unless I know that you sincerely need one. I don’t want an unhappy client.
Most tankless water heaters do that for safety reasons, BUT If you know where to look there should be a DIP switch inside the unit that you can change in order to allow higher temps.
This is the exact reason why when our tankless goes bad, and I hope it is sooner rather than later, there is a tank unit replacing it. Who the hell takes showers so long that they go through a tank of hot water. These things are nothing but a gimmick sold to non-engineers who don't understand simple thermodynamics.
Put in a Rinnai about 15 years ago in NH inlet temps of 50 in the winter. No problem getting hot water. I did install a recirc pump in the Master bath to cut down on the time to get hot water and stop wasting all that water down the drain. Just press a button on the side of the vanity & it takes about 25 sec to get the hot water to shower ( have another one in the adjoining Hall bath and the unit also came with remotes we can use in the Kitchen and downstairs bath) Have a whole house sediment filter & when I clean the sediment screen on the Rinnai it is always barely dirty. It's easy to flush the unit myself - don't' need a plumber to do that. There are plenty of videos available to figure out how to DIY. I was lucky to be able to install it in my basement on an exterior wall so venting was very easy and not expensive in my case. Have had ZERO issues with it. Can't speak to other brands but When I was researching before my install Rinnai had a great reputation.
Sponsored by Rinaii, says it all. How about discussing the maintenance to remove sediment, especially if you have hard water. How about discuss the annual cost savings of about $120 and the cost of an annual service visit. My tank water lasted over 15 years and cost me only $650. No annual maintenance. Blanket kept the stored water hot and avoided running the burner when not in use. I can buy a lifetime of tank heaters for the cost of a tankless. How about an honest review that isn’t a sales pitch by the manufacturer.
Now you know we can’t talk about the elephant in the room😜. In all seriousness tankless units shine when the user keeps the temperature 110 degrees or less and the burn hours less than 250 per year. Otherwise you get what you just described.
Maybe in the U.S. the cost of tank vs tankless means a saving with a tank but a vast majority of houses in UK and EU run tankless and it’s cheaper . My house was converted from a leaky tank that kept failing after only 7 years and took up way too much space. While I was apprehensive at first, the New tankless heater produced all the hot water we need for two showers, and the washer running simultaneously and then some. 5 years on and never had a problem, lower costs as I don’t have an element constantly trying to keep the water hot in the tank etc etc. never looking back. That said I guess there are still a few edge cases for tank based water heaters. Now looking at one of the new tech electric only versions that can replace the gas condenser unit for same running cost.
What’s you opinion on heat pump water heater, i am planing to replace my 40 gallon natural gas water heater. I live in moderate climate, temperature never less than 42F.
The US market is very weird here. There is no reason why a tankless boiler should cost significantly more than the system boiler you would otherwise use with a tank, nor is there any reason why it should require more maintenance. Indeed, elsewhere in the world they are about the same price, meaning that the tank itself is just an additional cost. Also, there is no meaningful efficiency difference between a system boiler + tank vs a tankless boiler. The efficiency gain comes from condensing vs non-condensing, and both are available for both formats - although non-condensing boilers have been obsolete for about 15 years now!
Thanks for posting this. I can’t agree with you more. I have a Rinnai combi unit in my home (domestic hot water and hydronic heat) and love it. Removed an old cast iron boiler and a 40 gallon heater tank. I also installed a Rinnai tankless water heater in my wife’s vegan food joint and got a huge benefit from space savings because the shop is small. An unexpected benefit is how whisper quiet it is. The old 50 gallon commercial tank with exhaust blower was very loud.
I have a tankless heater, I had it for 8 years, in the winter, it takes 5 minutes before the hot water reaches my faucet or shower. It doesn't last 10 years maintenance free. When it raining 🌧 and lighting. I have to cut it off. If you live in an area that has hard water. Your nightmare has just begun. The tank water 💧 heater at my free home, it's 25 years ago and he maintained it by flushing it out, every 5 years and replacing the regulator, ignitor and...ect. It is still working and he's still going to replace it with a newer version. It just my opinion, you buy what is best for you.
When we were in Ireland more than a few years back, all we saw were tankless water heaters wherever we stayed and it was so nice to only wait a few seconds before getting that hot water. Great video!
I hated my tankless. Every time someone turned the tap, (Hot or Cold), the temp changed, had to run the water for a couple of min. to get hot water. could not run the dishwasher and the washing machine at the same time. Changed back to tank and no more problems. And I had two different brands of tankless and both were not worth a you know what.
Hi Matt. I've had my Rinnai tankless heater for about 15 years and I love it. While I agree that many of the arguments against tankless are either over-generalized or exaggerated, I find some of your responses to those arguments suffer from the same problems. Combatting gross generalizations with gross generalizations isn't very helpful. I get that Rinnai is a sponsor, but content like this is going to undermine your credibility.
I don't watch that many of his videos, and I'm guessing a lot of homeowners interested in tankless may watch this video and not know his other content. I just wanted to warn those viewers to take this video with a grain of salt. There are no outright lies in it, but many of the things he says as if they are general facts about tankless do not apply to all installations. If I'm being generous, much of this video is true if you're looking at typical construction for the Southern US and a house with gas or propane service. I'm guessing that's most of the homes Matt works on regularly, If you look at a typical electric-only home in the rural NorthEast, where I live, this video is far less applicable.
First tankless I put in was Rinnai, venting was less than 4' and Rinnai venting is pricey. This house I put in a Navien because the venting was 24' and rated for schedule 40 PVC piping. Turns out Navien didn't get schedule 40 approval in Canada, I had to change to schedule 80 on the exhaust at $18/ft so Rinnai would have still been an option. The Navien has been in now 9 years, I flush/service it every year (very simple) and it has paid for itself. For 2 people, it uses as much gas per month that a pilot flame would use in a tank system. Set the temp to a hot bath no point mixing in cold. Never going back to a tank if I have a choice...
You can use both, a tank with the feed-in being an instant heat one, only need a small tank, and electric works, lots of hot quickly, and the feed into the tank is mostly hot so you avoid both the slow start of tankless, and the running out of water of the tank. It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can also add rooftop heating or a heatpump into the system that feeds into the tank, and can have a pretty energy efficient setup that way. And have that water feed into the tankless heater, which then feeds into the tank. By using the ground or roof to prewarm the water before the instant heater, the amount of energy needed to raise to the desired temp goes way down. But you still have hot water when its winter, just bypass the roof coils. And if you need instant heat, as others have mentioned. You need a circulation system.
Once the kids were grown, I went to a smaller 19 gallon 120 volt 1500 watt tank water heater with the 240 volt timer I had installed on the previous water heater. Except for a nice long hot shower, it's perfect. I am now looking at your idea of both not one or the other and supplementing my hot water. I'm happy to read I'm not alone with the idea of using both.
Just replaced a 34 year old electric water heater in a house I moved into last year as PREVENTATIVE maintenance. It was still going strong, but I figured it would be a good idea to replace at this point vs. eventually getting stuck when it finally broke down. Especially with prices on everything going up, and supply chain issues. It took over a month to get the new one as is with low inventory. Who knows how long the old tank could have gone though, as the sacrificial rod was in great shape and it didn't look like it had ever been replaced. Who actually replaces them anyway? Not many. My new one has thicker insulation and has a slightly lower annual operating cost than the old one. I never run out of hot water as it's sized right for the house. I installed it myself for under $800 total cost. A tankless would have been significantly more expensive. How many years would it have taken to make that back? Dunno, maybe not long with the way costs of everything, incl. electricity, is rising. Oh, it's installed in a basement too, so space isn't an issue. Point is, on demand makes sense for some people, but not for others.
Having experienced many showers where the water turns cold only to wait for a minute or so for it to turn hot again destroys the ads promoting that you never run out of hot water. I'm still sold on tankless heaters because they take up less space. After many attempts to resolve the hot/cold issue I replaced my Rinnai heater with a new Rinnai RSC199ip condensing unit with a circulating pump. Running one month so far and everything is working fine.
The whole “Instant Hot Water” is one that really annoys me. Like you said, you can get those with built in recirculation pumps, but I see way too many people who think that just by putting in a tankless that they’re going to be able to get the instant hot water benefit of a recirc loop. And I see way too many people selling a tankless as being able to do that. They’ll say, “switch to a tankless water heater if you want hot water immediately after turning on a faucet.” That is NOT a tankless water heater feature, it’s a recirculation loop feature, available for both tank and tankless water heaters. Now I will say, having a built in recirc pump is awesome if your plumbing is set up for that!
If you install a recirculation pump on your tankless. Wouldn't that mean your tankless would continually run to keep the water hot in your uninsulated pipes?
@@Powerfade54 It depends on the heat loss in the recirc loop. Typically, once it is up to temp, the heater will cut out. If you have a massive recirc loop that looses all its heat before getting back to the tankless, then it will continue to run.
We got our first tankless in Wisconsin in 1996. It was electric. The cost was much higher than a replacement tank water heater. We loved it so much that, when we expanded our place into a cabin style B&B, we put tankless in each cabin as well. We did, occasionally have problems with the first one in cold weather. But we found ways to solve the problems. The tankless allowed us to provide more space in the cabins for guests due to the water heaters taking up so little room.
We've got this on our house and it's great but... we're killing off gas in a few years and will probably look at the heat-pump or PV-element options. It's seems a great option to dump your excess generation into water heating, that's if the grid/EV has no desire for it...
I was literally refreshing on your past tankless vids these last few nights and going to be making my decision this week for my new build… you’re the man Matt!
I live in a newish subdivision in Central Texas. There were 62 homes with tankless water heaters...61 mounted on the exterior of the house and 1 mounting inside the garage. During the once-in-a thousand-years cold snap in February, 2021, all 61 tankless water heaters mounted on the outside of the houses were destroyed (burst inside). So, think twice about external mounting!
I am from Europe, Tankless (low eff, fully analog, Junkers, now Bosch) lasts me&family 20-40 years as long as it is serviced every 1-2 years. Never descaled. In winter i just turn gas valve one notch up. I use the output temperature ~108F so as not to mix with the cold, but you can easily heat much more, my gas valve is set to 30% Changed ~3 years ago was around ~450-500$ including labor.
I have a regular tank water heater for 20 years and it's still working great. However, although I thought about tankless, I don't like having to call a plumber every 6 months to maintain it. They require a LOT of flushes especially in hard water areas. Tankless will *NOT* stay hot during a power outage. It requires electricity to run the computer so it requires a plug or outlet. My tank water heater is easy, and I get hot water during power outages no matter how long. I flush it yearly and I can do it myself.
For those of us that don't have city water and live off a well, your claimed power outage comment is moot at best since the well pump will not be running. As for those on city water, a small UPS should be more than enough to keep power to a tankless if you must have hot water during a power outage, they are not a heavy load appliance. As for servicing a tankless, your every 6 months comment is overexaggerating. Annual maintenance is all that is really needed (or suggested), and you should be doing that to a tank water heater as well, especially if you live in an area with hard water and you want to keep your warranty (most manufacturers require regular maintenance to keep warranty valid). Replacing a pre-filter and flushing the pipes can be done by the homeowner if they choose. For pipe flushing, you just need 1 or 2 5-gallon buckets, a small pump, and a hose. At least that is how mine is setup, connectors right below the unit. Something to also keep in mind, the hotter you set your water to, the quicker scaling and build up can occur. With a tank water heater you tend to need to set your temp higher than you would a tankless for multiple reasons (bacteria growth prevention is one). This higher temp can be to a point where you can risk scalding. With a tankless, you can set your temp to a lower temperature that won't scald and has less scaling buildup. You still get the hot water you want, you just need to mix less cold water with it. And if you need the few moments where you need scalding hot water, it's quick and easy to dial it up for that occasion and then dial it back down right afterward. I switched from a 50 gallon tank to tankless a few years ago. Biggest advantage and reason I switched was for the added space. My 50 gallon was in such a tight spot, sharing the same room as my air handler, well pressure tank, washer, and dryer. Performing any kind of maintenance on it was nearly impossible. Endless hot water has been great! I would say efficiency and energy savings was another reason, but I had too many factors occur around the time of install to say if it did save anything. I went from an electric tank to a propane tankless (no natural gas in my area), plus I had a major kitchen and dining room remodel, new appliances, shortly after the pandemic hit and the whole family was at home all the time, and cost of electricity was on the rise. Considering all of those factors, my electric bill managed to not increase, but I do have a propane bill now to go with it. Earlier this year I got solar and now my electric bill is $0. I did look at hybrid tanks but they won't fit where the old water heater was at (and nowhere else for it to go). I also considered an electric tankless but my electrician that was working on my kitchen remodel suggested against it, stating one sized for my house would require a huge power draw, which may lead to other issues. Only thing I might do differently (and still might do), is get a small electric tankless to go under the kitchen sink. It is one of the farthest runs in the house and, aside from the shower, it is the most frequently used source for hot water. Doing this will get me hot water quicker and not trip the larger propane tankless for times that I only need a few seconds of hot water (or when the dishwasher runs).
so do new tanked units.. I hate tankless.. expensive.. hot water takes forever.. take a tub...30 minutes later ice cold water.. gotta drain tub to get warm again.. there is not heat transfer in pipes like tanked..so all that now cold water has to heat cold copper and release cold water.. Yes it lower gas bill...Mine failed 1400 2 repairs labor under warrenty..wanna see failed parts i keep them I did forensic exam.. heat chamber very complicated.. Neighbor replaced tanked start of service call to completed install in 3 hours or less.... mine took weeks..custom parts mailed to customer then reset to have tech come out to fix.. NO set appointment until parts at home.. more lost time.. Thank god i used wifes office showers.. Neighbors failed 3500 to replace unit on weekend after less then 10 years of service.. thats a reinstall all the parts are there.. i can show receipt..
@@peter-pg5yc Unless water is constantly flowing through those pipes, those pipes are going to cool down, tank or tankless. Heat retention in the home's pipes overall coming from a tank water heater is going to be minimal. A short distance from the tank, sure. But with no water flow to keep all that sitting water in the pipes heated, that energy is going to taper off very quickly. So either way, tank or tankless, if you ran hot water, stopped for a while, then ran hot water again, both will have to push the water that was sitting in the pipes through before the hot water arrives. What you don't get with a tank that happens with a tankless is what is known as a the cold water sandwich. That happens when fresh, colder water reenters the tankless to be heated and there is a brief moment where the water is colder than the final output temp. Depending on the length of the pipe run, how much heat retention remained in the pipes between runs will determine the severity of the cold water sandwich as the heated pipes will transfer heat to the cold water, vice versa. Insulating your hot water pipes (if possible) can help slow heat dissipation for when hot water is used frequently, for both tank and tankless. All my plumbing runs under the house in the crawlspace, so most of it is easily accessible. But if you have gone for long periods of time between using hot water, majority of the pipe run will have reached a cooler, ambient temp, insulated or not. As far as the tub comment, I don't get how heat transfer in the pipes helps keep your tub warm. Water in the tub for both tank and tankless should cool off at a similar rate given the water temp was the same for both, the tub isn't being heated by the pipes. Now, if you are talking about wanting to add hot water to a tub that has cooled off, then you may be referencing the cold water sandwich I mentioned earlier. While it may be a brief shock, the length of experiencing that should be minimal and hot water will follow pretty quickly afterwards. In my home, my tankless is in the center of my house. Both tubs are within 8 feet of the tankless (and my washer is in the same room, so an even shorter of a run), just on the other side of the walls. Both tubs receive hot water within seconds. Keep in mind, though, that one of the more common water heater tank sizes is 50 gallons and the average bathtub takes 42 gallons to fill up to the overflow drain. If your water got cold and you need to refill it again, chances are pretty good that the tankless is going to be able to supply more hot water for both tub fills than the tank water heater. With the tank, you would have depleted most of it from the first tank fill and it would be working hard to try and heat up another 42 gallons in time for the second fill (especially if that tank is electric, like my old unit was), even more so if you are trying to fill two separate tubs in short order or at the same time. Meanwhile, aside from the brief cold water sandwich, the tankless will be able to keep up (providing it was properly sized). Now for those that frequently turn on and off the hot water for a few seconds at a time in back to back succession (HE washer, dishwasher, children, for example), I do find that a tank has an advantage there. Luckily, my washer is only a few feet away from the tankless, so its impact is minimal there. As for my dishwasher, along with my kitchen sink, it is the furthest run from the water heater in my home. Even with my old tank, it took a while to get hot water, so no major difference there. The only noticeable difference is when it does call for water (dishwashers don't run the water all the time, they only take enough for each cycle). As such, the dishwasher's internal water heater probably does put in more work to heat the water, but it's designed to provide supplemental heating when needed, especially when using the sanitation cycle, but you could attach it to a cold water line if you wanted. As mentioned in my previous comment, what I am thinking of doing is installing a POU water heater under the kitchen sink. This will provide me with near instant hot water (something neither a tank nor tankless could provide) and will be much more tolerant to frequent on/off uses, which does happen between the dishwasher and washing dishes by hand. But this would be to solve a problem I was experiencing long before I went to tankless. I do agree that a "traditional" tank water heater can be swapped out from a failure quicker than a tankless IF parts are not readily available. But that is assuming you are not picky about what you want to replace the old tank with. If you have a newer style tank, like a hybrid tank (heat pump), you may be just as likely to be waiting for a repair or replacement as you would be for the tankless. As for cost, a basic traditional tank water heater can be quite a bit cheaper. But the more energy efficient models and those with longer warranties, the price difference between tank and tankless can be quite comparable. I can't state what difference in labor cost is between the two when it comes to swapping out for an identical unit, but I would think that it would be cheaper in labor to swap out for a same type unit than it would be to convert from tank to tankless or vice versa. Now, initial investment converting from tank to tankless can be pretty pricey, I can attest to that. But for my needs and use case, the tankless was the better choice for my home in the long run than sticking to a traditional tank setup. But as the old saying goes, your mileage may vary. One type of setup may work better for one home than another, same goes for their use case.
You omitted the fact that you have a chimney. Most homes in the last 20 years dont. They use power vent tank type water heaters. Chimneys are very expensive to build.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 Not sure if this was directed at me, but I don't have a chimney. Original water heater was electric, converted to a propane tankless. I have a one story rambler. They ran a PVC concentric termination ventilation system straight through the ceiling and roof, compliant with local building codes and passed inspection. All included in my original cost of conversion. While I don't have an itemized breakdown of costs in front of me, that one portion of the project didn't appear to be much of the overall price to install that.
Love our tankless. The only issue I had was @ year 6 the delivery pipe on the inside of the unit cracked. It was still under warranty but it was pouring water. Thankfully it was mounted outside the house. Still love it!
I've had on demand water heaters for about 40 years, but originally only at my ranch. I switched my residence water heater from a tank to a tankless about 25 years ago. I agree that they are better than tanks for MOST things. But, there ARE some things I don't like about them. 1. Noisier : so much nicer to have it outside. 2. they waste more water. ESPECIALLY if they are inside and the have to vent, so the fan is on venting and cooling off the combustion chamber every time you turn it off. Fan goes for a minute or two. But also, since there has to be water flowing thru the unit to get it warm, then it takes longer to get hot water to the place it is being used. So I highly recommend placing the heater outside, BUT make it close to the place that hot water is used intermittently but often, IE the kitchen. It definitely uses a bit more water.
Thank you. My last apt had a turquoise water heater with a plate that said 1965! When my landlord finally replaced it because it was not to code, it took four really strong guys to carry it 12 ft to their truck, it was almost solid inside. It was a miracle I got any hot water from it at all.
I lived in the midwest, Chi-town, and had a 35-gal tank that lasted over 30 yrs with 3 people. Simple maintenance, and keeping the tank at a low but suitable temp. Tankless water heaters are basically for big families. the savings vary.
Big families? Where did you come up with that? I live alone in the NE USA, ground water average temp is 47°, yes I had a tank that lasted way more than 30 years until it rusted through. Put a new tank in but got tired of coming home after 3 days and hearing heater(natural gas) running to keep water hot when I hadn’t even used it for days. Tank was only 3 years old when I replaced it with a tankless. Tankless dropped my gas bill enough that it paid for itself in less than 1 year! I didn’t buy a “name brand” one. Even if I had it would pay for itself in a handful of years! I’ll never put in a tank heater again!
If you live in Canada or somewhere up north with hard water. These machines are not very good. Have been through 2 tankless water heaters with flushing an maintenance every 6 months. Stick with the normal water tank! We'll be switching back once this one goes.
GREAT info- I passed it to my son-in-law! I have a tankless system at my NJ house and LOVE IT! In PA I found that where installers don't know HOW to install them, they NIX them!! NOw I'll try to find someon in Florida to replace my tank hot water heater that just broke!
The half-truths in this paid ad are disappointing. I'll just touch on one thing that very few understand: the claim of 95% efficiency. This only happens on condensing units (which are far more expensive), and it's ONLY going to reach that efficiency after you've been drawing hot water for several consecutive minutes. So, unless you have 3 or 4 teenagers in your house who each take a 30 minute shower every day or you operate a commercial dishwasher, you'll never get close to the rated efficiency and you'll NEVER recover the up front cost in gas saving either way. As a licensed plumber and gas contractor, I always explain this to customers who are considering a tankless. All but one has thanked me for educating them.
My Tankless failed in 14 months, it was very problematic shutting down, drawing codes every month or 2. My new one has been running for 5 months with no issues. Probably would never switch to tankless again, but it was very easy to change out when it failed completely.
My #1 reason was to eliminate the possibility of the tanks flooding the basement. For some reason the previous owner had 2 tanks. Got rid of both 12 years ago with a Rinnai.
I realize that it is ancient history but when I lived in Germany during the early 80's, I had a tankless water heater. It took a certain volume of flow to trigger it on. In my house on top of a mountain, that flow was at full on with the hot tap only. What you got was steam which would peel your skin off. I ended up taking cold showers for over 3 years.
Probably a change in technology, but I've never hit a minimum flow with the one I have currently and you can set the output temp to whatever you want it to be. The only issue I have had in 2+ years of use is when we had the dishwasher and clothes washer running at the same time I wanted to take a shower, I couldn't get it quite as hot as I wanted to. It was maxing out at just a bit cooler than I wanted. Every other day that I've had it, when I get in the shower I set the temp, and it stays at that exact temp for as long as I want to stand there.
Thanks Matt! My current tank unit was installed in 2001 and I have been waffling back and forth between another tank and going tankless. Unless the quoted price is outrageously different, you just made up my mind. Cheers from North Texas.
It would be great if you and the sponsor could work through real world applications and how to prevent the hot, cold, hot (pancake) effect. Also tanks give out a more consistent temp and it changes slowly. With our newer and modern tankless if someone runs hot water which changes the temp slightly the shower gets cold and when the water is shut off (like in the case of a dishwasher) the shower gets super hot. I’m sure there are ways to mitigate this this but it’d be nice to see a video addressing common issues in real world applications that your typical installer may not know or may assume isn’t a problem. Thx!
The real issue you describe isn't a water heater issue. It is a supply issue. If the incoming water pressure is low there will be more effect on temperature change in the shower mixing cold and hot water. The larger the water supply and smaller the branches will lessen this hot to cold to hot fluctuation. Typically the main lines would be 3/4" tho 1" pipe would be even better except more water would have to be delivered to raise the line temperature. Branches are typically 1/2" pipe wit 3/8" supply lines coming from the supply valves.
@@aNuthaRedneck pancake effect is pretty well known with tankless. In this situation I’ve experienced it with a 40/60 lb well w/a 12gph pump and properly pressurized well tank and the shower is a flow restricted shower head - while a restricted water supply may also cause this, in our case I don’t think it’s a water supply issue.
Installed the same unit on the right and was upset that I had to pay an extra $120 for the vent kit. You can't install the unit without a vent so why didn't it come included?
Generally venting is sold separately, because houses are different and its not possible to have an omnipotent venting kit that is suitable for every or even most of the installations.
yup.. hanging my new tankless outside the house.. you make good videos.. my current tank gas water heater has been running for 20 years.. but takes up a lot of room
I much prefer the tankless water heaters, but I have had not had the experience in longevity that you claim. I have 4 tankless water heaters in the home (including guest house) that we live in. I replaced one after 5 years, the second one after 7 years, the third one after 8 years, but the 4th one is still going strong. I doubt if it will last 2 decades as claimed.
I had a gas tankless installed when I remodeled my kitchen. The old “tank” was located in the kitchen. I had already gone through 2 in 15 years. The tankless was moved to the outside and used the old space to create a pantry. I had them install “big blue” water filter going into the tank and additional valves for easy maintenance. There’s no vent needed as it was outside. The remote control is in the pantry. I can run the washer and shower at the same time and see no diminishing of hot water. We also used to run out of hot water after 1 shower. My house is over 70 yrs old and I didn’t have to do any upgrades. I change the filter myself every year. Cost about $80. We have really hard water. Only had 1 flush and descaling so far. Tankless is now 8+ years old. I do see that it doesn’t kick in if tap is opened to low flow. So no hot water at trickle.
The cold issues we have in Canada aren't with incoming water temps but flu vent problems, in severe cold the condensate in vent pipes ices up quickly and becomes blocked enough the unit shuts down with error code. There's always huge icecicles hanging off the terminations outside in January and February. Also with many units in basements in Canada when you get a lot of snow the vents get burried, and people forget to clear em.
I'm in Canada too. Buy a condensing tankless unit: there's almost no moisture in the exhaust air to freeze. More money, yes, but higher efficiency means less gas burned.
then those vents should be higher or whatever needed so they don't get blocked. User should not have to go out in snow to clear vents. Geez it amazes me how much money is spent on construction design yet it so often does not accommodate real life conditions or actual human behavior.
i used stainless steel beer barrel under sink,connected directly to photovoltaic panels,just half a cup before hot water comes out, did same with shower, put hot valve up at shower head with extended handle [ball valve] , fast turn on and almost instant hot water from shower head, very happy with result......
I don’t consider the statements he’s making to be “ lies” …..they are all very valid points made in the field and each application has its own challenges. I’m sure there are many many cases where each lie can be confirmed as very true.
But that's not how Rinnai wrote the script don't you know. Early in the video is comparing 60% efficient tanked to tankless but then sure isn't using that same tanked model's price when talking about how tankless are the same price.
@@jh-12358 couldn’t agree more…. Gotta stick to the script 👍 . One example…Currently where I work ( Maine,USA) if a water heater ( tank) goes bad it can be replaced in almost no time with a subsidized heat pump HW heater for 1/10th the cost to the homeowner compared to switching to a tankless and cost go go much higher if no gas in the building. Another example about how long it takes HW to get to a fixture…. That’s just crazy to call it a “lie” because that applies equally to ALL types of hot water sources.
@@dominicm2175 that "subsidized" heat pump may be attractive to purchase, but for those of us in California paying $0.39/KWH, it will cost a fortune to run. The politicians want us to get on board, but they haven't really come to grips with the fact much of our power is generated through burning affordable natural gas. Solar is plentiful, but storage is not. California's environmentalists hate zero-carbon nuclear power, and are set to decommission our last plant in the next couple of years (responsible currently for 10% of our power source). I'm glad we have gas service to our home, and will continue to leverage the lower operational cost of gas utility over electric. I'm excited to put our new Rinnai tankless into service later this year.
@@jh-12358 I kinda question the efficiency figures. In a tankless water is constantly moving through the system so there is little time to apply heat. in a tank, every calorie of heat MUST pass to the water before it dissipates. The very fact these tankless heaters need huge amounts of power to do the same job a tanked one can also casts doubt on those efficient numbers.
@@steveloux4709 Embedded solar PV in your roof tiles along with the right battery storage system in California is the best option. Then you can ditch the electric company and the gas company. All electric appliances and cars (or trucks) are the way forward. Get on board.
Scale is an issue depending on where you live. If you live in Phoenix, you don't want a tankless unit. I installed one in place of the tank that went bad, and within 3 months it was already failing due to scale build up. Fortunately, the manufacturer continued to send me the parts, over and over until the warranty ran out. 2 years. Despite my every attempt to descale the thing, it just wasn't possible to maintain.
Energy efficiency is not often a valid reason to purchase one. For us, saving approximately $100.00 per year for our family of 6, would give us a 26 year payoff. Certainly not going to change out for efficiency alone. Never have run out of hot water with a family of 6, so not a reason to change out for us. Maybe if our tank gives out eventually.
First if your water supply is cold even the bigger units will restrict flow to heat the water up You have the 6-10 second delay while it starts up and begins to make hot water so even if you have a circulating system you will end up with a big slug of cold water. The worst is if you have a shower that switches from wall to hand held unit the tank will see that as a flow stop then give you a nice splash of cold water in the middle of your hot shower. Add in the yearly maintenance added upfront cost and if you go by the actual energy guides there is a good case tank types are cheaper to run. Now in warmer climates or for vacation properties it might make sense but after owning one I will never again have one.
The thing with tankless heaters is that they are extremely finicky. They require annual maintenance, they need good quality water and proper filtration, and they need to be installed exactly to manufacturers specs. If you don't have all 3 of things in order, the chances are your tankless will fail prematurely and hence, why they have such a bad reputation. Whereas with a traditional water heater, anybody can throw one of them things in and it'll give you 7-10 years of hot water with no problems until it becomes time to replace it. Home owners just don't want anything to worry about and they want the cheapest solution and if that's the case, sticking with traditional water heaters is still the way to go. Converting to a tankless is not cheap and the benefits simply don't outweigh the upfront cost. Not to mention, you need to do your research with these things and not just pick any one off the shelf. There are some manufacturers of tankless units like Navien that just make defective units and you don't want to find out after spending $10000 to convert to a tankless that the unit you put in is defective and will need to be replaced in a couple of years.
@trainofthough0242 & Stephen Willis: 14 yrs.? Just replace it. I bought mine online for less than $100.00. Never even seen one priced at 10k. I think you're spreading horse manure. Let me guess: You sell water heaters, right?
@@doubleganger2 if it ain’t broke don’t fix it that’s my opinion on water heaters. Tank units work much better imo. Never had any issues with a tank unit.
So I split the difference a few years ago. I went with a 50 gal HTP stainless tank 97% efficiency gas water heater. It has 77k BTU input and recovery is very fast. So it is essentially like a tankless unit with a highly insulated tank that is condensing with PVC pipe for air intake and exhaust. It was around $2500. It works like a champ and I don't need to worry about scaling maintenance, like with tankless heaters that blast incoming cold water with very high temps that knock out minerals in the water.
Heat Pump water heaters like the Sanden CO2 is by far the most efficient and long lasting. There are reasons tankless might make sense, but for efficiency and every day use, tankless doesn't make sense especially if you have hot water recirculation loops.
Don't have a Rinnai but I've used an electric EcoSmart tankless water heater for about five years and love it. Had to hire an electrician to add three double pole breakers to my electric box but other than that the heater took me about ten minutes to install...les time than to remove the old tank heater. It has copper pipes and being electric doesn't need venting or anything else, just one inlet and one outlet and a lot of juice. However, since it only runs when I need it I actually save on my power bill. I'll never live in a house without an electric tankless again. Oh and the unit itself was only $350
apparently a main "advantage" of a tankless, i.e. not running out of hot water, would more simply be cured by having a larger tank. in other words, it is not an advantage of tankless over tank, only of tankless over inadequate tank. I started out believing in tankless but after seeing all the issues with error codes, parts replacements, parts not available, plus more demanding venting, wiring, piping... and no hot water with electric outage?!... I'm just gonna get a larger tank. For larger homes, more than one tank seems to work fine especially where there's distance between plumbing stacks.
That is an advantage but not the main advantage. The main advantage is there is NO STANDBY LOSS. 1 POUND OF WATER 1 DEGREE 1BTU! This is obviously a very difficult concept for you to understand! Go make a pot of coffee, turn off the machine and come back in a couple of hours and get yourself a cup of coffee...what happened? The coffee is cold! why? Because the heat has escaped to the atmosphere! Insulation slows the process but when you are talking about an uninsulated flue tied into a chimney that continuously pulls cool basement air up through the water heater it loses it's heat almost as fast as that coffee pot. A larger tank will just hold more pounds of water and will cost you even more.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 well duh, guess what, i DO understand standby loss, and it is one reason i started out thinking tankless was the way to go. Clearly you have more interest in calling me stupid, than in acknowledging that the MANY issues i listed are relevant for at least some users.
One interest thing that I found (accidentally due to aeshetic choices) is that separate hot/cold controls work much better for temperature adjustments with tankless. And it's best to turn the hot on first then adjust by adding in cold, especially for the more distant faucets. My experience anyway.
I used a Navian commercial grade tankless heater for my restaurant and it's been working amazingly. I do need to do some maintenance on it though. It's been 2 years since we put it in and haven't serviced it. I've seen some service videos and it's a quick DIY friendly process. Planning to install the combo unit for my house for both heating and hot water so I can discard the old boiler and hot wated heater to add a ton of extra closet space where the old units were
I had a Rinnai tankless (non-condensing) that was mounted on the outside of my house. Two things that weren't covered in this video that I will tell you are absolute truths and could make your decision to NOT get a tankless. 1) If mounted outside it can freeze, and when it does, it stops ALL water in your house. 2) If you have a high efficiency low water usage washing machine for your laundry, you will NEVER get hot water in a cycle.
I have a Rinnai condensing unit. If an exterior-mounted heater freezes, it stops the flow in the hot side of your plumbing. The cold continues to run, obviously. You still have running water. Solution: don't mount this units outside if freezing is a possibility. As for the high-efficiency washing machines, we have one. It runs just fine and gets the hot water it needs. I suspect you have a long, long run from heater to washing machine, so sure, that could be a problem. However, pull out that unit, install a tank-type and you'll still have the same problem. You need to have the water heater (any type) in your laundry room for maximum efficiency. That's where everyone I know puts it.
@@paulmaxwell8851 - "The cold continues to run, obviously. You still have running water. " - nope ALL water flow stopped. Could have been a poor install by plumber, but plz don't presume to tell me my lived experience is invalid. As for the washing machine, you are wrong about that was well. Our tankless was a retrofit on a house that was nearly 30 years old. Laundry off the garage, WH in the basement, fairly central to the kitchen and 4 bedrooms.
@@carlwebinar1571 I'm not sure how it could stop your cold supply. Cold comes in from the street to your meter and then splits off the feed line to each fixture needing cold water, including the tankless (the tankless then makes the incoming cold water hot), hot then originates from your tankless. Cold water to your fixtures like tub, sinks etc doesn't take a path through your water heater. What's likely is that your main supply froze as there's no way to blame the water heater (tank or tankless) for losing cold supply to the house.
@@nutritionperfection - I took a heat gun to the outside portion of the tankless (the heat exchanger as I recall) and after about 10 minutes, everything was fine. I live in Atlanta and it got down to 8°F overnight, very atypical.
or a hot tub on a refill.. Or 3 gallons or ore waste cold water for a shower..I aint going into a damn cold shower.. I use 5 gallon buckets to catch cold water.. Use elsewhere..
I have a non-condensing Rinnai and it takes 10 seconds from when I turn on a tap to when the outlet pipe starts to warm up, and maybe another 5 seconds until it's at full temperature. So there is definitely some extra delay compared to a tank. Of course the 60+ feet of 3/4 pipe from the WH to the bathroom doesn't help either. I'm replacing it with a hybrid water heater (located closer to the bathroom) because a heat pump is more efficient than even a gas condensing water heater.
I reside in Northern Virginia. Four years ago I purchased and professionally installed a top-of-the-line WW Granger German ELECTRIC all house tankless. During the winter of 21/22 the tank’s internal circuit breakers kept popping because the external water temperature was too cold. Two tankless professionals from two different plumbing companies confirmed that it was the ‘extreme’ difference between the external water temperature and the setting on the tankless. I reduced the temperature setting on the tankless from 115 to 100 degrees. No joy. I reluctantly went back to the tank. The tankless just would not work in this cold temperature latitude. I was lucky to get 3 1/2 years. It turned out to be a very expensive experiment.
Agree that I would generally put these inside the home. We froze a bunch of tankless units when my past clients lost power for a week a few winters ago.
He's still showing plumbers installing plumbing in exterior walls in every other video... including in his own house (though at least he has some exterior insulation). So, nope. Texas builders learned not a single thing from getting a taste of winter. They're still plumbing exterior walls and still running supply lines above ground and still not installing isolation valves and drains behind their hose bibs and still willing to put a water heater outside.
Years ago I bought a Renai cheap at Costco ($850 condensing). Then it sat for 4 years while I kept getting higher and higher quotes to install it. Last quote came in at $5000. Eventually found a gas fireplace guy to do it for $1200. Worked great ever since although it takes a couple minutes to get hot water to the shower. About a minute to get the heater spooled up then another minute for hot water to shower. Take longer hotter showers than the old gas tank heater and the gas bill is about 40% lower
My buddy had a tankless installed, it has been a nightmare from the get go. His wife and kids are ready to bar be que him. So what should be off the radar for hot water, it's a gamble to convert. No thanks.
Sometimes it doesn't make sense. my Dad had a 30 ft run of half inch copper in stucco in his basement ceiling leading to his 30 gallon tank. Tearing out a ceiling or tearing up a hardwood floor would have been necessary to run 3/4 inch to a tankless. But for me it was a breeze everthing was right where it needed to be, the concentric vent that I needed was like $30. Mine worked flawlessly. With the exception that I had to run the kitchen hot faucet for a few seconds when I first used the dishwasher. I later found out that was because I had a single water inlet on the washing machine and was using a Y hose to feed it. The backfeed through the Y hose was enough to not allow the pressure drop from the dishwasher to trigger the tankless.
I got my 199k BTU tankless on clearance for half price(~$500) from Builder's Square when they were shutting down. Was a Bosch but I think it was a re-branded Japanese unit.Finally installed it in 2003 when my tank started leaking. I installed it my self and it has been mostly trouble-free. Sometime it will not activate at too low of flow and sometimes if it sits for a long time without use (months - living with girlfriend), the flow wheel will not spin and has to be freed up by hand.
in 2014, I was working a contract job away from home and I rented a new one bedroom apartment that had a tankless gas fired water heater. When I took a shower, the hot water demand wasn't high enough to keep the heater on, so the shower water went cold. I had to turn on the hot water at the sink while I was showering to keep the hot water demand up in order for the heater to stay on. So, keep your tankless water heater. The 50 gallon electric water heater in my home that I bought new started leaking a little after 25 years. I never had any trouble with it before with the original heating elements still working fine. I replaced it myself with a unit from Home Depot for about $450 total....
I paid 1200$ for my 1st tankless that I bought myself, copper heat exchanger. After 8 years heat exchanger started leaking. To expensive to have it replaced. I also had a huge cost in double wall stainless exhaust. Bought a new tankless ,2000$ and had it installed 500$ , stainless heat exchanger this time. Recirculating pump went out after 3 years, pump under warranty, not labor, 350$ . Both units Noritz. Add the cost up, yes they save you operating cost, but it will take you 20 years to recoup the cost. Then it’s time to start all over. Your standard heater goes out, you have it replaced the next day at a 4th of the cost. Going back to a standard tank unit. The experiment failed!
The unit with a pump. Was it made in Korea? Both Noritz and Rheem sold a Korean brand and put their name on it. It was supposed to be a fill gap to compete with Navien. It didn’t go well for either company. That particular unit was originally designed for hydronic heat. Even installed correctly these units have a horrible break down record.
You should have tried a Rinnai. They last way longer than a Noritz. Probably why Matt used that brand for his video. Mine is from 2004 and I probably paid for maintenance like 5 times which is a simple flush.. mine still going strong...
I've had a tankless for years, and I've been delighted, but once in a while, it'll shut off with an error code, which really sucks when you're in the shower. Turning it off/on resets it and no issues after that. Obviously, it might need to be investigated by a service technician but it happens so rarely that it's more of an annoyance than a problem. The only other issue is the required flow to have hot water. For example, if I have the hot water coming out of the sink at a somewhat low flow, after a bit the hot water will stop being produced. This is why if you still have a shower with two knobs, I'd upgrade it to one where the flow is consistent.
Actually you’ll find that a two knob shower is safer to run regarding an older mid efficiency unit. Some single handle shower can make the tankless unit code out. Single handle showers when they’ve matured can cause crossover issues which become a nightmare on newer units with pumps.
If I were building new, sure, tankless all the way. At under a grand, the actual cost of the heater isn’t that bad. The problem is the punitive pricing by plumbers in some areas. You’re absolutely correct, it takes no longer to install than a regular tank-so how does the plumber justify a $5000 installation vs a $1200 installed tank? It’s the same problem as mini-split HVAC, it’s different so the contractors want a guaranteed profit, instead of saying “it’s 140 and hour, 3-hour minimum. Takes as long as it takes.” They just tell you “about $5k” to install an $800 heater.
The person who answered the phone makes a salary. The person who created your invoice makes a salary. The plumber makes a salary. The truck/van the plumber showed up in cost money. The gas the truck used to get him there cost money. The plumbing shop has a furnace, A/C, lights, and computers that all have to be paid for. The plumbing shop stocks inventory. The plumbing shop probably has other useful assets like a fork lift and scissor lift and a few hundred thousand to a few million dollars worth of specialty tools (a decent 5/8 cable drain 'rooter' machine is almost 5 grand these days... a decent truck mounted hot water jetter is about a 100 grand these days) The vehicles need insurance. The building needs insurance. The employees need work comp and health insurance. The plumbing shop pays a garbage and scrap metal collection company to dispose of the waste created at the office and on the jobs. If the shop is more than a couple of plumbers, they probably also pay for cleaning and grounds maintenance. Building permits cost money. Materials cost money. And... don't get me started on the *taxes*.... If you can do it yourself, then do it yourself. If you can fix it yourself, then fix it yourself. If you can't, won't, or don't have time, maybe consider what you're paying for is for a business to exist in your community that you can call upon to do things you can't, won't, or don't have time to do. Being in business aint cheap and it gets harder every day in this economy for any business to stay in business and keep feeding the families that rely upon the jobs that business supports.
@@betweenfiveandseven So the cliff notes are... Plumbers have overhead, if its so easy UA-cam the video do it your self and when you call me I can charge you twice as much.... One to fix what you screwed up and then to do the original job... also I'm not a fan of thankless....
Not really. In an older home they can have their tanks in a whole bunch of spaces. These models shown were plugged into an outlet which could not even be available on the same floor. Never mind the extra gas requirement and fresh air requirement. If it's the same tech then yes unplug old plug in new
@@betweenfiveandseven I’d like to thank Gabby Johnson for that authentic display of frontier gibberish, and I’m glad these kids could be here today to see it. I’m not complaining about paying the plumber, and I fully understand the concept of the cost of doing business. What I’m complaining about is plumbers charging five times as much for the same number of man-hours of work, based on them being less familiar with it. If you have a reason why it costs 5x as much to install a tankless as it does a tank, I’d be interested in hearing it. Otherwise I’ll let you return to yelling at kids to get out of your yard.
@@jasonm.7358 You were likely given a choice between accepting the bid or having the job done time and material. That's regular old boilerplate industry standard sort of practice. If you think there's a greater chance that time and material will save you money and the plumber won't run in to any significant challenges during the install that might drive up the cost, take the gamble and choose time and material. This is America, bubba. You have *choices* and your destiny is in your own hands. No one is holding you over a barrel.
@@godzilla2k26 I traveled through Asia quite a bit and a lot of homes have tankless water. I've also been in a home in north America that had a tankless system for an upstairs bathroom. They're just as fast to get hot water if not faster than a regular tank heater. Like he mentions in the video, the time it takes to get hot water mostly depends on how long it takes to clear cold water that's sitting in the pipes between your faucet/shower and the heater, just like a regular water heater. My experience in Asia is that a lot of these are installed at the site of service (I think they're electric in that case) and the hot water basically comes out within a few seconds because the heater is already right there at the shower head or at least in the bathroom.
@@katherinelandreth2191 The one at our church is really slow to get up to temperature. But it replaced the old water heater and isn't close to the point of service, so that could be a significant factor. So in Asia are there multiple heaters per house or is it the point of service is just built closer to where you access the water?
Thanks. I am building and have a well water, 400 amps and no gas. I am just finishing a utility building which will have two 32 gallon pressure tanks. The building is R22 and will have heat so my water should temper to about 60 degrees. I will have an outdoor shower so I am going to put an RTEX-11 for the utility building. My Garage/Studio is about 200' away and I will add another pressure tank in a heated space and two RTEX 11's. One for the bathroom and one for the kitchen/washer. I will valve Bypasses so if one fails I can fall back to one unit. I will see how that all works before I build the main house.
Just sold a 96 YO old house with the top of the line Rinaii flawlessly operating for near 17 years. New house (3 YO) had a 80 gallon tank-type that was demoed and moved to the curb for the "recovery geniuses". Now have the same Rinaii model for the last 7 months providing likewise flawless operations. There will NEVER, EVER be a tank-type in my life again.....not ever!
How expensive was the tank?
@@bsignora6099 ....the tank alone is about $900. But, you also need the exhaust/combustion air ductwork for it to operate. My first unit had a through the roof exhaust/combustion air duct extending 3' above the roof while my newest is through the exterior wall. I prefer the latter as the ductwork length is considerably shorter by comparison. Also, the newest model is considerably quieter than the first....meaning the exhaust/combustion air fan noise.
@@bsignora6099 .....I might add that there is no such animal as a "tank". Unlike a tank-type which holds heated water and repeats it and repeats heating it again and again to the set temperature. The tankless has a copper exchanger that holds maybe 1 quart of water when not in use, but engages a blast furnace type flame to heat the water only as you need it for as long as you need it for a rapid rise in temperature. They are entirely and totally two different animals. One stores hot water and the other makes hot water only when you call for it.
You have to get away from the "mind-set" that a tankless is an INSTANT HOT WATER source. It is NOT unless the unit is mounted in your shower. I don't think you would want that. It was lightly covered in the video, but the wait time for hot water is very dependent on the lenght of water piping from the unit to your tub or shower. But, that is the same issue if you have a tank-type. You can install a recirculating system within your hot water piping system (very expensive by itself) to get the benefit of instant hot water supply. So, don't be misled by the "instant hot water" claims without a supplemental recirculation piping to each of your hot water points. Let me give you one other point to consider. You go on vacation for 3 days or 2 weeks, your tank-type will continue heating water to the set temperature regardless of use. Big loss of effectiveness and efficiency. On the other hand, if you leave the house for the same period of time, the tankless NEVER runs. If there is no demand....there is no hot water produced! Period!
The CONTINUOUS hot water system I used recently did not work on low flow, it had to be turned on to high flow rate.
I turn my storage tank off when I holiday, ezi pezi
They do work, millions of Japanese use them every day. But if gas will be restricted in the future you will not get your lifetime value.
True ? ?
South Korea, same, tankless. Not only that, the floor heat is run off a tankless water. Called (온돌), pronounced "own dole" named after their ancient tech using rocks under the nice homes (hot rock), a fireplace outside the house, running the hear under the house heating up the rocks below then leaving a chimney out the other side. This is one reason sitting and sleeping on the floor is popular in this area of the world. I was in Korea for a year, had an apartment with this radiant floor heating and it's just perfect. PERFECT, I say!
It seems lots of people forget that the further your faucet is from the tank the longer it takes to heat the pipes between. When I renovated I insisted the design concentrate the plumbing as much as possible as close as possible to the heater location. My kitchen sink is the closest with hot water in 3-5 seconds, guest bath is furthest, takes 8-10 seconds.
Good information Matt but it would have been helpful to explain what condensing and non condensing units are.
When we moved into our house in Westchester, CA 25 years ago, the first thing I did was replace the 30 gal. gas water heater in the garage with a tankless NG heater. It's still operating perfectly today! it only ran the washing machine and sat idle for the majority of the time. Our gas bill dropped by 30%. I never did replace the house heater though, moving it outside (at the time direct vent didn't exist) was cost prohibitive.
I’ve been working on tankless for 20 years. And I make a good living coming in behind installers.
1. You’re wrong on the longevity. Getting 20 plus years on a tankless is only possible if spare parts are still being made and stocked. And if the unit is properly maintained. A tank can get 20 plus years as well if pressure, anode rod and water quality is checked.
2. Installing a tankless takes far more labor intensive than a tank unless of course you skip some serious issues, such as 110 outlet and gas line up sizing. Core drilling through a concrete wall is something not for the average guy.
3. Stainless steel is causing issues with copper pipes on the down range side. Also another point of concern is reverse osmosis and tankless. “What say you?”
4. Your comment on gas line is incorrect. The newer units will not shut down on low pressure. It will simply give you want it can. BTUs are BTUs and the gas meter will only allow what it’s designed for.
5. Your comment on running 3 showers at the same time is misleading at best. Delta T or temp rise dictates the GPM of a unit.
By all means keep these videos coming as I make a living coming in after guys who follow your advice.
lol thanks for the input.. here in thailand we use one small tankless in the shower (75 to 150 dollars) ive seen many old ones still working fine... the rest of the house sa bai sa bai no have! lol
oh and there electric
@@marcinasia1731 precisely. the one component I forgot to mention that affects the life of tankless and the need for descale is temperature. My Asian family and friends in the Pacific don’t use hot hot water on a regular basis. If the temperature is kept below 110 on a consistent basis the tankless will last a long time, without descale. Anything 120 and above will require water treatment and or regular maintenance.
@@marcinasia1731 that tells me by itself that you don’t waste water. Electric types (here in the states) don’t have the same recovery as a gas tankless. Americans want 120 plus temperature while using multiple shower heads. A waste of water and energy.
Yes, this guy is very misleading
Thank you for this. I have a brother that was a plumber and has been gathering quotes for years. I have lived outside of the US for 20+ years. I installed one myself on a bathroom in the Philippines 15 years ago. When back in the US I still could not get one installed. Meanwhile, during this time I've had one that supplies a house my mom has replaced two large tanks. I currently live in HK and that is all anyone has. We have one about the size of a carry-on suitcase. I serve two full baths, a kitchen, and a washer at the same time. Repairs in 15 years, none. Your video will help my argument! Definitely going to send this on to my mom.
I installed a Bosch tankless unit when I renovated my house in 2006. What a nightmare that was! Never worked right. Would constantly go into limp mode, or not fire up at all.
Bosch sent me a new ecu, didn't help. They told me I had to upgrade my gas line($600), didn't help. Then the water line from my well($1,100), didn't help.
I had nearly $4,000 into this tankless water heater before I tore it out and threw it in the trash.
Replaced with a regular heater, no trouble since.
Never again!
Things have changed a lot in the last 16 years. In the early days they had lots of issues. I got my first in 2015 and was impressed with reliability and performance. Moved across the country and promptly had one added to the home.
That it wouldn't start or start in degraded mode suggests one thing, once you ruled out gas flow issues, air flow.
Fresh air into the burner unit, exhaust out, any restriction would give you exactly what you experienced. If it was a non-condensing unit, the exhaust should still be quite hot at the vent outlet outside. If it isn't, you have a major air flow problem that needs to be resolved.
Condensing units are a lot more efficient, so the exhaust will be cooler, as the condensing unit takes the wasted heat and recycles it back into heating water, discharging a small amount of water to be drained off or evaporated. There, you'd probably want instrumentation to measure air/exhaust flow rates.
@@spvillano I used the 4" stainless steel exhaust kit($400) from Bosch. Intake was also a 4" pipe maybe 5 feet long. No issues there. In the end, Bosch blamed it on my well pump. The pulseing of the pump. I wasn't willing to spend another $1,500 to upgrade that to find out it's not that either. I just gave up and cut my losses.
@@tlr-nut7275 that's even odder, as the pressure tank should remove any pulsations from a pump. A properly sized pressure tank both relieves cycling burden and pressure pulses.
That nobody managed to diagnose it properly, downright bizarre. Sounds like a case of "lemme guess this, lemme guess that", hoping to find a resolution without actually measuring anything whatsoever!
iv'e been a plumbing contractor 45 years, built my house installed a 50 gal elec . i have a constant pile of tankless out back of the shop all brands waiting to be scrapped
I installed my own Rinnai tankless 6 years ago. I descale it once a year and I love it. Only downside was once power went out and lost hot water fast. I bought a UPS backup unit for about $100 and will keep it powered up for 30 min if power goes out now. Love my unit
quick the power went out, i need to shower. Seems useful
@@chadschafer1723 Well... you could be taking a shower when the power goes out. lol
@@TheFlyingZulu first thing I'm worried about is finishing my shower when the powers out.
@@chadschafer1723 And why not be able to still take/finish a warm shower if you can. Life goes on through power outages.
@@lordgarth1 listen if that's what makes your day, God bless.
A few observations from someone who has installed many of these...
Condensing units cost more, but the cost savings on the venting oftentimes makes up for it. If you have a long run, it ends up being cheaper. Plus, I find drilling a couple of 2-inch holes is easier and more practical than drilling a single 5-inch hole. Also, drawing intake air from inside of the structure is not recommended. For one, in a tightly sealed house it poses a safety issue, as these draw a lot of air, and the air cannot be replenished fast enough. For another, you are drawing heated/air-conditioned air from inside of the structure and blowing it outside, which wastes a lot of energy.
Tankless electric units do not require venting at all, and are smaller than the gas units. I highly recommend Steibel Eltron if you go that route.
Tankless electric point of use units are great for locations such as kitchens, where hot water gets used often, especially if it's far away from the main unit. I have a whole house unit but also have a p.o.u. unit under the kitchen sink which provides hot water at the tap in about 3 seconds.
If you have well water, there is no tank for the water to sit in and grow bacteria which is oftentimes what gives your hot water that rotten egg smell. (It can also be caused from having a magnesium anode in your tank). If you haven't shocked your well lately, you might still get a little odor, but it won't be that overwhelming, plug your nose, kind of smell.
I set the unit at my preferred shower temp. then just turn the faucet all the way to hot. Most good units have remote controls available (some even have wifi now) which makes it easy.
I honestly can't see a situation where I would ever install a tank in a house again.
Yeah I pefer tankless, you also save more water
Is your point of use water heater in the kitchen a stand alone unit or does hot water from your tankless flow through it?
Great you bring up Japan. I'm in the Army and the military installation housing me and the family lived in all had tankless water heaters. We always had hot water and the control panel was in the kitchen for easy adjustment.
15 year old tank water heater started to leak so it had to go. I installed a rinnai v65i about a year ago myself. The thing works amazing. I love it. The only things that surprised me was on the install. I needed a new vent because the tank system was tied in with the furnace. The plumber said it was against code to use the same vent since the water heater has an exhaust blower and there was a risk of back feed into the furnace. I went with the ubbink rolux vent system which worked great, but the cost for 10 feet of vent and termination kit was $500, just about as much as the water heater itself($680). If i would have realized in the beginning that i would have needed a special vent i would have selected a different unit that only needs pvc. Also as far as i was aware the gas line needed to be 3/4 so that had to be upgraded as well, not a big expense but still something worth noting.
Just to keep things real world honest... Power requirements. If we're talking about Natural Gas for fuel: with a tank and power outage, you still get hot water. With tankless and power outage, you'll need to power it somehow (not for heating element if gas but for the ignition).
That being said, get a battery backup dedicated for $200 with 900w output (the tankless uses about 80watts to spark) and it'll be just right as rain.
Correct. Also hard water issue cause the sensor in the tankless to fail. The tank doesn’t. Tankless all around is better till you have issue. Once you have issues you’re waiting days, unlike tank you just run to HD and get what you need right away! 🤷🏼♂️
On my tank I had a powered exhaust fan and power going to the valve. A power outage would not allow either of those to work
@@beaker2k unfortunate that you needed a booster to vent and they installed a fail safe. Lots of tanks are vented on short runs and don't rely on any electricity.
I had power outages for DAYS.
Any plumbers here like clearing blocked drains? Or anyone like watching it?
I've had a Rinnai condensing tankless for nearly three years. Yes flush it annually with vinegar. There are two issues:
1) Time to hot water can be a full minute or more for a distant tap. The partial workaround I've done is to install a one-gallon electric tank right under my kitchen sink, with input to it from the tankless hot. (I don't mind the minute wait for the shower hot.)
2) Minimal flow rate required: if you turn the hot on just a trickle, the tankless might never fire up.
I've wondered about that type of thing myself. Why not use a lower wattage main unit and a smaller unit down the line, closer to the point of use. How does it work out for you?
There is a switch inside the unit that will fix your “trickle” issue. I had a similar issue and Rinnai tech support was fantastic. If you add a recirc pump to your unit it will fix all of the waiting and it’s very cheap to run. That’s not specific to your heater, it has to do with the length of run between the unit and fixture which needs to be cleared (and pipes warmed) in the process.
I mean is waiting a minute for hot water that big of an inconvenience? It takes about a minute or so for my tank hot water to reach the faucet.
@@DanielCaspi Adding a recirculation pump wastes a bit of energy because you are then using gas/electricity to keep the water in the pipes warm all the time. How much energy will be wasted depends on how long the pipes are, how well they are insulated, their size and length, etc. But then again, running the water until it gets hot wastes a little water too.
@@averyalexander2303 At that point, aren't you just remaking a tanked water heater, just with a really tiny tank?
Matt, as a plumber in the northeast, our company exclusively installs Navien tankless water heaters, would love for you to review one of these. They have a 1 liter “buffer tank” therefore, don’t have to wait as long for hot water.
When the video sponsored by one brand I doubt he will do another brand.
How does that work and where did you locate it.
@@Dwb913 it’s part of the unit, it’s built inside, when going through the start up wizard, it asks if you want to use internal recirculation, external, or no recirc. When using internal recirc, it will automatically come on about every 30 minutes for a few seconds to keep the water in the “buffer” tank hot, therefore not having to wait as long for hot water or have a minimal usage to trigger the unit to come on.
I'm looking into the Navien NPE-A2 & Noritz EZ-SV. Any insight between the two you can share?
@@eaglerider94 no experience with Noritz, it is a popular brand though. We had a few issues with the A2 as far as replacing the internal check valve on 3 so far.
When I lived in Japan in 1969, all the houses I visited had tankless water heaters, even the 200 year old house. It didn't have a front door, just a blanket as a flap, but it did have a tankless water heater.
Cool super smart people in us the type of products are not popular
I had a tankless one time. Didn’t like it. Noisy and difficult to control temperature. Servicing it was expensive and didn’t help much with temperature control after service. Maybe they are better now, but I will stick with what I know works well.
Trust me their not, I repair them daily and parts are still very expensive, and if a person isnt trained proper, they may take a few visit to fix. Two weeks on the average for special parts under normal circumstances
One time? LMAO
When we built our house in 1994 we installed tankless water heaters, that worked well for about 25 years. Eventually they needed repairs and it wasn't possible to get parts for them any more. We considered new tankless heaters first, but they were not only expensive, they required extensive routine maintenance--very finicky. I think they also required an electrical outlet, as do many new tank water heaters. We went with good modern tank water heaters, and have been well pleased. They have miniscule pilot lights and good insulation. No need for an electrical outlet; all the electrical power necessary comes from the heat of the pilot light.
no idea what people in america are getting shilled, we have had so many tankless water heaters here in the UK never once have we needed them descaling, even in hard water areas
@@randomcow505 I've got a friend who loves his tankless. Same guy who was able to say something nice about a neglected, overflowing and festering portable chemical toilet on a construction site.
@@randomcow505 Ah yes, of course scale doesn't exist in the UK.
@@randomcow505I would really like to know the difference in your tankless water heaters and the ones in the USA. I tend to very much believe you. There is so much b.s. sales here telling people they need or have to have various services that are total b.s. and rip offs for easy money.
Going on year 4 with my Rinnai tankless, mostly thanks to you, and loving it!!
Four years? Must be some sort of longevity record.
Ya, but didn't you do a video a while back comparing the cost to buy and run different water heaters, and said best bang for buck was a heat-pump tank? We have Rinnai's in many of our rental properties in central Canada for a couple years now, and even with seasonal flushing and maintenance are starting to be problematic.The internal parts are needing to be changed often, so much lately, we have been switching back to standard tank water heaters.
sounds like it might really depend on local water quality. either way, tankless seem like more potential headaches compared to other options
Other than periodically descaling, what maintenance have you had to do? I would have expected tankless seem to have fewer maintenance issues. I descale every few years (water softener) and have had few problems, while with the tank I had issues regularly
The answer to that question starts at 7:14
For rentals, I'm going to agree before watching the video. My experience is to revert back if possible. Renters don't care or need endless hot water. They won't pay more rent and if landlord is responsible for utilities...ouch. Any plumber and many handyman can repair/replace the tanks at a moments notice. New units and parts are available 24/7. Renters aren't willing to wait for days/weeks with no hot water for warranty work or ordered parts. As a eco/solar(battery) ethusiest, heat pump is the only way to go. As contractor that dreams, both, tankless and heat pump. Heheh
Most tankless units have dozens or more error codes, many sensors and electronic parts which are hard to get replacements for in emergencies, not to mention costly after most 2 year warranties expire. We've had internal condisate problems, leaking exchangers in the combos, venting problems on really cold days, power exhaust vent issues or failures. Saying these things will last 2 decades, makes me laugh. I don't see the benifit in dumping money non-stop into maintaining equipment for the sake of endless hot water. As for efficiency, nobody looks at the btu's, the amount of gas required to heat a volume of water. The cost savings may be pennies over years. We required gas line upgrades to almost all properties where these units were installed which was very costly. They don't make sense to me or our development company, we stick with the basics now. (K.I.S.S)
I'm an American, now living in France. I just remodeled my old house (1903) which involved creating 2 entirely new bathrooms. I gave each its own tankless water heater, placed right in the bathroom. It keeps the piping runs very short, which reduces the delay when you turn on the tap.
I'm super happy with the results.
As a residential designer still doing work in the USA I recommend the same approach to my clients. One of the advantages is that you only have to run a single cold water line to each bathroom. Split the line at the bathroom to create hot & cold. Then branch within the bathroom. This means fewer long pipelines running through the house and less piping overall.
Side note - although I personally prefer gas units, the electric ones available here in Europe work great and don't require venting.
This was one of the problems adapting tankless to this country. They had to be upsized to accommodate a central system.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 true, but with central, every tap, from powder room to bathroom all have hot water from a single unit.
In a new build, there might be some applications where running a circulator system would work, not so much in retrofit builds though, save if such a system was already in place.
@@spvillano What I meant was they have been using tankless in Europe for many years but the units were smaller and usually close to the bathroom they served. When they brought them to this country they werent large enough to serve 3 bathrooms or fill a whirlpool but they have overcome these problems over the last twenty years. I sell quite a few and always try to upsell my customers if I can. Many older homes still have chimneys and when it comes down to dollars a chimney vented gas water heater is still the outright cheapest in the moment. Many of the homes built after 2000 had no chimney and also a fair amount of 2 man tubs were sold. The tankless is the only thing that can economically fill these tubs as the standby loss from 80 or 120 gallon water heaters is crazy.
I’ve had a Rinnai tankless installed 13 years ago and It has worked flawlessly. The only thing to get used to is that you do need to let the hot run for a few seconds before the hot water comes out. You are essentially purging the cold water that is in the line. With a tank, convection keeps the water in the pipes warm all the time, which means you are wasting money heating your wall cavities with your plumbing. A minor difference that I’m happy to live with.
uh no youre completely wrong lol. it takes longer because the pilot has to heat the pipes and that takes 15 seconds easy
Convection from a tank does not keep the water in your pipes warm all the time. Matt even explained this in the video, unless you have a recirculating pump, everyone has to wait for the cold water to be flushed from the line before the hot water arrives, regardless of tank or tankless.
The disadvantage of tankless is, as @J says, the little bit of additional time it takes to heat the water pipes inside the tankless heater. Because of that, even if you had a tankless unit directly behind your shower, there will still be a short delay before you get hot water.
An "instant hot" water dispenser works by putting a small tank next to the faucet. The water in that small tank is always hot and can be delivered (almost) instantly.
Install a heat trap to prevent convection losses from your tank heater.
You have to pay for the convenience of convection losses.
@@hempelcx Go feel the Temperature about five feet from your tank water heater hot outlet, or the last metal part if it switches to non-metallic before then. If you have tankless, at 6in from the heater it is room temperature about 30 seconds after you stop using hot water.
Our natural gass tankless water heater is about 22 years old. It replaced a 5 year old natural gas A O Smith traditional water heater. Older folks may remember A O Smith had lost a class action suit for defective water heaters. I didn't know until after the deadline of the replacment water heaters because of defective dip tubes. We live in a city and have city water, but we still have a water softener. Two design flaws, no drain to flush out scale, and it does have a pilot light. But it has worked for 22 years. In 2016 we bought a vacation property and the traditional water heater was only 7 years old and needed to be replaced. Well water, so we added a water softener and additional filters to help supply better quality drinking water. I'll take a tankless water heater any day over a tank.
I add a WestingHouse tankless water heating 5 years ago. The installation was labor intensive because of the layout of my home but only spend about $200 in parts to do so. The water heater was $1200 which was still twice the cost of replacing the existing water heater but it did include a recalculation pump. Other than some occasional unexplained error codes that where not documented which was not surprising consider the poor owners manual, it worked very well and was very cost efficient. After less than 2 years it developed a leak which after having a plumber repair it, it turned out to be a simple fix that takes about 10 minutes once you know where to look. Replacing a washer of which the manufacturer provided 10 of, solved the yearly problem of the leakage. However, about 2 years ago it developed a new problem where it would not ignite the gas. After some work I found a wire had come lose so I had it back in service again. Three days later it started leaking again but this time it was not the washer, it was the tank itself. The leak was very small which did not shut down the unit and I could not find the exact location. The problem was solved with 24 hours when the leak progressed to numerous location at the top of the tank.
While this tankless water heater was great while it worked the short life time I experienced was not uncommon as I found out while searching for a better replacement model. Unfortunately even Renie's water heater have people mentioning the same problem of short lifetime due to leaks. And though some tankless water heaters can be found for a reasonable price most with any kind of re circulation capability get expensive fast. Meanwhile the 10 year old water heater which seemed to be leaking was just a simple matter of tightening the drain valve is now back in use. My gas bill has gone up a noticeable amount but not enough that 5 years of the higher bill would justify the cost of a tankless.
I love tankless water heaters when they work but the industry really needs to do better on reliability and cost. And good luck getting anyone to fix the tank at a reasonable cost. Additionally even if the re-circulation pump is not included, the water heater should have the logic build in to drive an external pump. Most external pumps don't have an intelligence built in so they have to be manually setup. The one I had learned the best times to run the re-circulation pump so you seldom had to deal with the cold water problem.
Spot on. And tankless may be popular in Japan, but that's also due to limited space requirements. Yes, I too prefer the efficiency of tankless, but reliability is also a prime consideration, and just a peek inside the average tankless water heater reveals *_much_* more complexity, with more opportunities for leaks... which are often disastrous no matter when they occur.
$1400 labor under warrenty to fix mine..parts free.. Feelin raped..
@@peter-pg5yc Geesh, your labor cost would be enough to have bought 2-3 traditional water heaters and installed by yourself.
I've been looking into this for a while now, so many opinions and experience , I'm just one person living in the house, reliability and costs are the most important to me , what makes me worried is, if thankless fails, it can be really costly, i can buy and install tank myself, but i can't do same with tank-less... and labour cost is very expensive...
Love our Rinnai tankless unit, family of 5 with more that stay over all the time it has became invaluable.
Matt you should address electric tankless units as well, not everyone has natural gas line, the electric units require a ton of startup electricity and significant electrical upgrades are needed
Correct. That's the reason I recommend getting a heat pump water heater to replace your electric tank.
@@shawnd567 That is interesting where I am in TX we only have Elec. I lived in Australia and built my first house back in 1986 and we had tankless then and love it. My issue with Elec as was stated above the cost is not practical. So you are suggesting a heat pump water heater I have heard of them on This Old House and Matt has suggested them before as well. Thanks
Reason why we ran gas to the home, got a tankless and retired the electric water heater.
Rinnai makes propane versions of its heaters as well. That's what we have.
@@richardgarrow9260 not all of TX has electric only, although that is spotty and equally true in rural areas nationwide.
Still, propane is an option. Of course, masturbating with a cheese grater's an option as well. It all comes down to what you want to pay equipping the home with and a cost/benefit analysis. For most, running gas lines wouldn't be worth the expense, save with new construction.
I had a tankless one 2 houses ago, it was fantastic! used it for 2years before i moved. only had one issue, fixed it myself. I also had vary hard water. wired up the remote in the bathroom. 103 deg for showers, only using hot water. it was very nice bieng able to do laundry all afternoon then go right to the shower. Oh and the kid or wife wants to take a bath right before you shower?? its got your back! I plan on replacing the tanked one in my current house this fall.
I bought a Rheam tankless water heater first. I timed my furthest shower it was 15 seconds to get hot water. I priced out a Rinnai, went for the $700 cheaper Rheam. While the Rheam did hold up for for the first 18 month. Once I started having issues “Exhausting” errors. Nothing is worse than mid shower bam ice cold shower. The repair was easy, but did take a few weeks to figure out. My next house I’m currently designing will have a tankless water heater again. The maintenance does take longer on a tankless than a conventional water heater. I did pay the extra money for the easy flush valves. I also have a hvac license so I can buy contractor grade descaling liquid relatively cheap.
Love that Rinnai is USA made. Agree tankless are the way to go. :)
He was promoting Rheem 4 years ago!
He will shill for whoever signs the checks 💲
I have tankless for 11 months now. Love it. And I just did the annual flush/descaling. Piece of cake. Like anything else, watch plenty of youtube videos to get familiar with all the steps including cleaning the filter before you start.
My only beef is the time it takes for the hot water to reach the faucet. So in the morning while brushing my teeth, I fill up the sink. When the water is warm, I use it for multiple things before pulling the plug.
I'm a plumber who clears blocked drains for a living although I'll still install the occasional hot water system.
I ALWAYS GO RINNAI ❤️❤️❤️
I'm less loyal to a brand name than I am to quality. Currently, they're still maintaining high quality, but should that ever change, I'd not slavishly stick with a failing brand, but be loyal to those who showed loyalty to their investors and customers by keeping the quality up.
I'm going through that now with, of all simpleton things, a damned coffee pot. Warranty expired, the heater opened and replacements are not available. Think I'll stick with that brand or the previous brand that also failed after a year? Nope, I'll go back to my percolator first. And yes, they're entirely different companies, I check the brand corporate ownership.
Although, "American spaceship, Russian spaceship, all the same. All made with parts from ____!"
I've had my Renee tankless waterheater for almost 20 years. Every point made on this video is spot on. It's small size allowed us to install it in a laundry room near both bathrooms and kitchen so it takes far less time to get the hot water than when it was in the basement.
I regret switching to tankless. My experience is different from yours. First, it was expensive. A little over three times replacing the tank. The unit I installed was rated to supply more than two shows at a time. It does not. It does take longer to get hot water than the tank version. The first drop of water out of the tankless is at the same temperature as the intake water whereas the first drop out of a tank is at the tank temperature. Big difference. If I shave and then immediately take a shower I will get a blast of cold water. While shaving the unit cools off meaning the hot water in the pipe will have a slug of cold water coming before the unit starts putting out hot water again. So I waste water while waiting for that blast of cold water to pass.
With a tank I set the temperature to 130 degrees. The tankless has a maximum temperature of 120 degrees. I would prefer hotter water. The saving in the gas bill is about $9 per month, however, the plumber who installs it charges $240 for the recommended bi-annual descaling. Bottom line the operation is more expensive than the tank, takes longer to get hot water, only allows one shower at a time, and wastes a lot of water heating up. If this unit goes bad I will go back to a tank.
This video is sponsored by some tankless company, what did you expect, its fuill of bullsh*t
When a client calls me to install a tankless I give three scenarios. 1. Space; do you absolutely have to have the space. 2. How often are you changing out your tank? If it’s less than 8 years then you’re a candidate for an assessment.
3. Home; are you always gone? Some of my clients are gone 3-9 months out of the year. Then my final question is do have to be reminded to change the oil in your car??? I personally won’t install a tankless unless I know that you sincerely need one. I don’t want an unhappy client.
@@Runescape. precisely 👍😀
Most tankless water heaters do that for safety reasons, BUT If you know where to look there should be a DIP switch inside the unit that you can change in order to allow higher temps.
This is the exact reason why when our tankless goes bad, and I hope it is sooner rather than later, there is a tank unit replacing it. Who the hell takes showers so long that they go through a tank of hot water. These things are nothing but a gimmick sold to non-engineers who don't understand simple thermodynamics.
Put in a Rinnai about 15 years ago in NH inlet temps of 50 in the winter. No problem getting hot water. I did install a recirc pump in the Master bath to cut down on the time to get hot water and stop wasting all that water down the drain. Just press a button on the side of the vanity & it takes about 25 sec to get the hot water to shower ( have another one in the adjoining Hall bath and the unit also came with remotes we can use in the Kitchen and downstairs bath) Have a whole house sediment filter & when I clean the sediment screen on the Rinnai it is always barely dirty. It's easy to flush the unit myself - don't' need a plumber to do that. There are plenty of videos available to figure out how to DIY. I was lucky to be able to install it in my basement on an exterior wall so venting was very easy and not expensive in my case. Have had ZERO issues with it. Can't speak to other brands but When I was researching before my install Rinnai had a great reputation.
Sponsored by Rinaii, says it all. How about discussing the maintenance to remove sediment, especially if you have hard water. How about discuss the annual cost savings of about $120 and the cost of an annual service visit. My tank water lasted over 15 years and cost me only $650. No annual maintenance. Blanket kept the stored water hot and avoided running the burner when not in use. I can buy a lifetime of tank heaters for the cost of a tankless. How about an honest review that isn’t a sales pitch by the manufacturer.
Now you know we can’t talk about the elephant in the room😜. In all seriousness tankless units shine when the user keeps the temperature 110 degrees or less and the burn hours less than 250 per year. Otherwise you get what you just described.
Maybe in the U.S. the cost of tank vs tankless means a saving with a tank but a vast majority of houses in UK and EU run tankless and it’s cheaper . My house was converted from a leaky tank that kept failing after only 7 years and took up way too much space. While I was apprehensive at first, the New tankless heater produced all the hot water we need for two showers, and the washer running simultaneously and then some. 5 years on and never had a problem, lower costs as I don’t have an element constantly trying to keep the water hot in the tank etc etc. never looking back. That said I guess there are still a few edge cases for tank based water heaters. Now looking at one of the new tech electric only versions that can replace the gas condenser unit for same running cost.
Matt did a video a while back about tankless being thankless
What’s you opinion on heat pump water heater, i am planing to replace my 40 gallon natural gas water heater. I live in moderate climate, temperature never less than 42F.
The US market is very weird here. There is no reason why a tankless boiler should cost significantly more than the system boiler you would otherwise use with a tank, nor is there any reason why it should require more maintenance. Indeed, elsewhere in the world they are about the same price, meaning that the tank itself is just an additional cost. Also, there is no meaningful efficiency difference between a system boiler + tank vs a tankless boiler. The efficiency gain comes from condensing vs non-condensing, and both are available for both formats - although non-condensing boilers have been obsolete for about 15 years now!
Thanks for posting this. I can’t agree with you more. I have a Rinnai combi unit in my home (domestic hot water and hydronic heat) and love it. Removed an old cast iron boiler and a 40 gallon heater tank.
I also installed a Rinnai tankless water heater in my wife’s vegan food joint and got a huge benefit from space savings because the shop is small. An unexpected benefit is how whisper quiet it is. The old 50 gallon commercial tank with exhaust blower was very loud.
I have a tankless heater, I had it for 8 years, in the winter, it takes 5 minutes before the hot water reaches my faucet or shower. It doesn't last 10 years maintenance free. When it raining 🌧 and lighting. I have to cut it off. If you live in an area that has hard water. Your nightmare has just begun. The tank water 💧 heater at my free home, it's 25 years ago and he maintained it by flushing it out, every 5 years and replacing the regulator, ignitor and...ect. It is still working and he's still going to replace it with a newer version. It just my opinion, you buy what is best for you.
But but, that's not what Matt's sponsor wanted hm to say!
Ya, he really jumped on the Rinnai band-wagon! 😆
When we were in Ireland more than a few years back, all we saw were tankless water heaters wherever we stayed and it was so nice to only wait a few seconds before getting that hot water. Great video!
I hated my tankless. Every time someone turned the tap, (Hot or Cold), the temp changed, had to run the water for a couple of min. to get hot water.
could not run the dishwasher and the washing machine at the same time.
Changed back to tank and no more problems. And I had two different brands of tankless and both were not worth a you know what.
you must gotten a shitty tankless or improper install. I got my tankless installed and never going back.
@@hoodhunter3262 or a thankless that was way to small
Hi Matt. I've had my Rinnai tankless heater for about 15 years and I love it. While I agree that many of the arguments against tankless are either over-generalized or exaggerated, I find some of your responses to those arguments suffer from the same problems. Combatting gross generalizations with gross generalizations isn't very helpful. I get that Rinnai is a sponsor, but content like this is going to undermine your credibility.
He's been shilling sponsored products for years dude...
I don't watch that many of his videos, and I'm guessing a lot of homeowners interested in tankless may watch this video and not know his other content. I just wanted to warn those viewers to take this video with a grain of salt. There are no outright lies in it, but many of the things he says as if they are general facts about tankless do not apply to all installations. If I'm being generous, much of this video is true if you're looking at typical construction for the Southern US and a house with gas or propane service. I'm guessing that's most of the homes Matt works on regularly, If you look at a typical electric-only home in the rural NorthEast, where I live, this video is far less applicable.
First tankless I put in was Rinnai, venting was less than 4' and Rinnai venting is pricey. This house I put in a Navien because the venting was 24' and rated for schedule 40 PVC piping. Turns out Navien didn't get schedule 40 approval in Canada, I had to change to schedule 80 on the exhaust at $18/ft so Rinnai would have still been an option. The Navien has been in now 9 years, I flush/service it every year (very simple) and it has paid for itself. For 2 people, it uses as much gas per month that a pilot flame would use in a tank system. Set the temp to a hot bath no point mixing in cold. Never going back to a tank if I have a choice...
Did it lower your gas bill?
You can use both, a tank with the feed-in being an instant heat one, only need a small tank, and electric works, lots of hot quickly, and the feed into the tank is mostly hot so you avoid both the slow start of tankless, and the running out of water of the tank.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.
You can also add rooftop heating or a heatpump into the system that feeds into the tank, and can have a pretty energy efficient setup that way. And have that water feed into the tankless heater, which then feeds into the tank.
By using the ground or roof to prewarm the water before the instant heater, the amount of energy needed to raise to the desired temp goes way down. But you still have hot water when its winter, just bypass the roof coils.
And if you need instant heat, as others have mentioned. You need a circulation system.
I still have just a tank but occurred to me this should be a possibility. Small tank that serves as cache of hot water that is fed by Tankless.
Once the kids were grown, I went to a smaller 19 gallon 120 volt 1500 watt tank water heater with the 240 volt timer I had installed on the previous water heater. Except for a nice long hot shower, it's perfect. I am now looking at your idea of both not one or the other and supplementing my hot water. I'm happy to read I'm not alone with the idea of using both.
Just replaced a 34 year old electric water heater in a house I moved into last year as PREVENTATIVE maintenance. It was still going strong, but I figured it would be a good idea to replace at this point vs. eventually getting stuck when it finally broke down. Especially with prices on everything going up, and supply chain issues. It took over a month to get the new one as is with low inventory.
Who knows how long the old tank could have gone though, as the sacrificial rod was in great shape and it didn't look like it had ever been replaced. Who actually replaces them anyway? Not many.
My new one has thicker insulation and has a slightly lower annual operating cost than the old one. I never run out of hot water as it's sized right for the house. I installed it myself for under $800 total cost. A tankless would have been significantly more expensive. How many years would it have taken to make that back? Dunno, maybe not long with the way costs of everything, incl. electricity, is rising.
Oh, it's installed in a basement too, so space isn't an issue.
Point is, on demand makes sense for some people, but not for others.
Which brand/Model did you replace it with? And which Brand did you replace?
Having experienced many showers where the water turns cold only to wait for a minute or so for it to turn hot again destroys the ads promoting that you never run out of hot water. I'm still sold on tankless heaters because they take up less space. After many attempts to resolve the hot/cold issue I replaced my Rinnai heater with a new Rinnai RSC199ip condensing unit with a circulating pump. Running one month so far and everything is working fine.
The whole “Instant Hot Water” is one that really annoys me. Like you said, you can get those with built in recirculation pumps, but I see way too many people who think that just by putting in a tankless that they’re going to be able to get the instant hot water benefit of a recirc loop. And I see way too many people selling a tankless as being able to do that. They’ll say, “switch to a tankless water heater if you want hot water immediately after turning on a faucet.” That is NOT a tankless water heater feature, it’s a recirculation loop feature, available for both tank and tankless water heaters. Now I will say, having a built in recirc pump is awesome if your plumbing is set up for that!
If you install a recirculation pump on your tankless. Wouldn't that mean your tankless would continually run to keep the water hot in your uninsulated pipes?
@@Powerfade54 It depends on the heat loss in the recirc loop. Typically, once it is up to temp, the heater will cut out. If you have a massive recirc loop that looses all its heat before getting back to the tankless, then it will continue to run.
We got our first tankless in Wisconsin in 1996. It was electric. The cost was much higher than a replacement tank water heater. We loved it so much that, when we expanded our place into a cabin style B&B, we put tankless in each cabin as well. We did, occasionally have problems with the first one in cold weather. But we found ways to solve the problems. The tankless allowed us to provide more space in the cabins for guests due to the water heaters taking up so little room.
We've got this on our house and it's great but... we're killing off gas in a few years and will probably look at the heat-pump or PV-element options. It's seems a great option to dump your excess generation into water heating, that's if the grid/EV has no desire for it...
Great use of spare power. How much is electricity per KWh and gas per kWh or therm where you are? And where are you in the world?
I was literally refreshing on your past tankless vids these last few nights and going to be making my decision this week for my new build… you’re the man Matt!
If you got the amps, go electric.
ua-cam.com/play/PLsqwS9Vo-z3VKl5rL1-ymHeQlUeXzec5m.html
I live in a newish subdivision in Central Texas. There were 62 homes with tankless water heaters...61 mounted on the exterior of the house and 1 mounting inside the garage. During the once-in-a thousand-years cold snap in February, 2021, all 61 tankless water heaters mounted on the outside of the houses were destroyed (burst inside). So, think twice about external mounting!
That's because the electric went out and there was no power for the freeze prevent operation.
@@don2deliver Yes - exactly
I am from Europe, Tankless (low eff, fully analog, Junkers, now Bosch) lasts me&family 20-40 years as long as it is serviced every 1-2 years. Never descaled.
In winter i just turn gas valve one notch up.
I use the output temperature ~108F so as not to mix with the cold, but you can easily heat much more, my gas valve is set to 30%
Changed ~3 years ago was around ~450-500$ including labor.
I have a regular tank water heater for 20 years and it's still working great. However, although I thought about tankless, I don't like having to call a plumber every 6 months to maintain it. They require a LOT of flushes especially in hard water areas. Tankless will *NOT* stay hot during a power outage. It requires electricity to run the computer so it requires a plug or outlet. My tank water heater is easy, and I get hot water during power outages no matter how long. I flush it yearly and I can do it myself.
For those of us that don't have city water and live off a well, your claimed power outage comment is moot at best since the well pump will not be running. As for those on city water, a small UPS should be more than enough to keep power to a tankless if you must have hot water during a power outage, they are not a heavy load appliance.
As for servicing a tankless, your every 6 months comment is overexaggerating. Annual maintenance is all that is really needed (or suggested), and you should be doing that to a tank water heater as well, especially if you live in an area with hard water and you want to keep your warranty (most manufacturers require regular maintenance to keep warranty valid). Replacing a pre-filter and flushing the pipes can be done by the homeowner if they choose. For pipe flushing, you just need 1 or 2 5-gallon buckets, a small pump, and a hose. At least that is how mine is setup, connectors right below the unit.
Something to also keep in mind, the hotter you set your water to, the quicker scaling and build up can occur. With a tank water heater you tend to need to set your temp higher than you would a tankless for multiple reasons (bacteria growth prevention is one). This higher temp can be to a point where you can risk scalding. With a tankless, you can set your temp to a lower temperature that won't scald and has less scaling buildup. You still get the hot water you want, you just need to mix less cold water with it. And if you need the few moments where you need scalding hot water, it's quick and easy to dial it up for that occasion and then dial it back down right afterward.
I switched from a 50 gallon tank to tankless a few years ago. Biggest advantage and reason I switched was for the added space. My 50 gallon was in such a tight spot, sharing the same room as my air handler, well pressure tank, washer, and dryer. Performing any kind of maintenance on it was nearly impossible. Endless hot water has been great! I would say efficiency and energy savings was another reason, but I had too many factors occur around the time of install to say if it did save anything. I went from an electric tank to a propane tankless (no natural gas in my area), plus I had a major kitchen and dining room remodel, new appliances, shortly after the pandemic hit and the whole family was at home all the time, and cost of electricity was on the rise. Considering all of those factors, my electric bill managed to not increase, but I do have a propane bill now to go with it. Earlier this year I got solar and now my electric bill is $0. I did look at hybrid tanks but they won't fit where the old water heater was at (and nowhere else for it to go). I also considered an electric tankless but my electrician that was working on my kitchen remodel suggested against it, stating one sized for my house would require a huge power draw, which may lead to other issues.
Only thing I might do differently (and still might do), is get a small electric tankless to go under the kitchen sink. It is one of the farthest runs in the house and, aside from the shower, it is the most frequently used source for hot water. Doing this will get me hot water quicker and not trip the larger propane tankless for times that I only need a few seconds of hot water (or when the dishwasher runs).
so do new tanked units.. I hate tankless.. expensive.. hot water takes forever.. take a tub...30 minutes later ice cold water.. gotta drain tub to get warm again.. there is not heat transfer in pipes like tanked..so all that now cold water has to heat cold copper and release cold water.. Yes it lower gas bill...Mine failed 1400 2 repairs labor under warrenty..wanna see failed parts i keep them I did forensic exam.. heat chamber very complicated.. Neighbor replaced tanked start of service call to completed install in 3 hours or less.... mine took weeks..custom parts mailed to customer then reset to have tech come out to fix.. NO set appointment until parts at home.. more lost time.. Thank god i used wifes office showers.. Neighbors failed 3500 to replace unit on weekend after less then 10 years of service.. thats a reinstall all the parts are there.. i can show receipt..
@@peter-pg5yc Unless water is constantly flowing through those pipes, those pipes are going to cool down, tank or tankless. Heat retention in the home's pipes overall coming from a tank water heater is going to be minimal. A short distance from the tank, sure. But with no water flow to keep all that sitting water in the pipes heated, that energy is going to taper off very quickly. So either way, tank or tankless, if you ran hot water, stopped for a while, then ran hot water again, both will have to push the water that was sitting in the pipes through before the hot water arrives.
What you don't get with a tank that happens with a tankless is what is known as a the cold water sandwich. That happens when fresh, colder water reenters the tankless to be heated and there is a brief moment where the water is colder than the final output temp. Depending on the length of the pipe run, how much heat retention remained in the pipes between runs will determine the severity of the cold water sandwich as the heated pipes will transfer heat to the cold water, vice versa. Insulating your hot water pipes (if possible) can help slow heat dissipation for when hot water is used frequently, for both tank and tankless. All my plumbing runs under the house in the crawlspace, so most of it is easily accessible. But if you have gone for long periods of time between using hot water, majority of the pipe run will have reached a cooler, ambient temp, insulated or not.
As far as the tub comment, I don't get how heat transfer in the pipes helps keep your tub warm. Water in the tub for both tank and tankless should cool off at a similar rate given the water temp was the same for both, the tub isn't being heated by the pipes. Now, if you are talking about wanting to add hot water to a tub that has cooled off, then you may be referencing the cold water sandwich I mentioned earlier. While it may be a brief shock, the length of experiencing that should be minimal and hot water will follow pretty quickly afterwards. In my home, my tankless is in the center of my house. Both tubs are within 8 feet of the tankless (and my washer is in the same room, so an even shorter of a run), just on the other side of the walls. Both tubs receive hot water within seconds. Keep in mind, though, that one of the more common water heater tank sizes is 50 gallons and the average bathtub takes 42 gallons to fill up to the overflow drain. If your water got cold and you need to refill it again, chances are pretty good that the tankless is going to be able to supply more hot water for both tub fills than the tank water heater. With the tank, you would have depleted most of it from the first tank fill and it would be working hard to try and heat up another 42 gallons in time for the second fill (especially if that tank is electric, like my old unit was), even more so if you are trying to fill two separate tubs in short order or at the same time. Meanwhile, aside from the brief cold water sandwich, the tankless will be able to keep up (providing it was properly sized).
Now for those that frequently turn on and off the hot water for a few seconds at a time in back to back succession (HE washer, dishwasher, children, for example), I do find that a tank has an advantage there. Luckily, my washer is only a few feet away from the tankless, so its impact is minimal there. As for my dishwasher, along with my kitchen sink, it is the furthest run from the water heater in my home. Even with my old tank, it took a while to get hot water, so no major difference there. The only noticeable difference is when it does call for water (dishwashers don't run the water all the time, they only take enough for each cycle). As such, the dishwasher's internal water heater probably does put in more work to heat the water, but it's designed to provide supplemental heating when needed, especially when using the sanitation cycle, but you could attach it to a cold water line if you wanted. As mentioned in my previous comment, what I am thinking of doing is installing a POU water heater under the kitchen sink. This will provide me with near instant hot water (something neither a tank nor tankless could provide) and will be much more tolerant to frequent on/off uses, which does happen between the dishwasher and washing dishes by hand. But this would be to solve a problem I was experiencing long before I went to tankless.
I do agree that a "traditional" tank water heater can be swapped out from a failure quicker than a tankless IF parts are not readily available. But that is assuming you are not picky about what you want to replace the old tank with. If you have a newer style tank, like a hybrid tank (heat pump), you may be just as likely to be waiting for a repair or replacement as you would be for the tankless. As for cost, a basic traditional tank water heater can be quite a bit cheaper. But the more energy efficient models and those with longer warranties, the price difference between tank and tankless can be quite comparable. I can't state what difference in labor cost is between the two when it comes to swapping out for an identical unit, but I would think that it would be cheaper in labor to swap out for a same type unit than it would be to convert from tank to tankless or vice versa. Now, initial investment converting from tank to tankless can be pretty pricey, I can attest to that. But for my needs and use case, the tankless was the better choice for my home in the long run than sticking to a traditional tank setup.
But as the old saying goes, your mileage may vary. One type of setup may work better for one home than another, same goes for their use case.
You omitted the fact that you have a chimney. Most homes in the last 20 years dont. They use power vent tank type water heaters. Chimneys are very expensive to build.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 Not sure if this was directed at me, but I don't have a chimney. Original water heater was electric, converted to a propane tankless. I have a one story rambler. They ran a PVC concentric termination ventilation system straight through the ceiling and roof, compliant with local building codes and passed inspection. All included in my original cost of conversion. While I don't have an itemized breakdown of costs in front of me, that one portion of the project didn't appear to be much of the overall price to install that.
Love our tankless.
The only issue I had was @ year 6 the delivery pipe on the inside of the unit cracked. It was still under warranty but it was pouring water. Thankfully it was mounted outside the house.
Still love it!
I've had on demand water heaters for about 40 years, but originally only at my ranch. I switched my residence water heater from a tank to a tankless about 25 years ago. I agree that they are better than tanks for MOST things. But, there ARE some things I don't like about them. 1. Noisier : so much nicer to have it outside. 2. they waste more water. ESPECIALLY if they are inside and the have to vent, so the fan is on venting and cooling off the combustion chamber every time you turn it off. Fan goes for a minute or two. But also, since there has to be water flowing thru the unit to get it warm, then it takes longer to get hot water to the place it is being used. So I highly recommend placing the heater outside, BUT make it close to the place that hot water is used intermittently but often, IE the kitchen. It definitely uses a bit more water.
Can they be place outside in places that have freezing temps in winter?
I install Rinnais and also love clearing blocked drains
Thank you. My last apt had a turquoise water heater with a plate that said 1965! When my landlord finally replaced it because it was not to code, it took four really strong guys to carry it 12 ft to their truck, it was almost solid inside. It was a miracle I got any hot water from it at all.
I lived in the midwest, Chi-town, and had a 35-gal tank that lasted over 30 yrs with 3 people. Simple maintenance, and keeping the tank at a low but suitable temp. Tankless water heaters are basically for big families. the savings vary.
Big families? Where did you come up with that? I live alone in the NE USA, ground water average temp is 47°, yes I had a tank that lasted way more than 30 years until it rusted through. Put a new tank in but got tired of coming home after 3 days and hearing heater(natural gas) running to keep water hot when I hadn’t even used it for days. Tank was only 3 years old when I replaced it with a tankless. Tankless dropped my gas bill enough that it paid for itself in less than 1 year! I didn’t buy a “name brand” one. Even if I had it would pay for itself in a handful of years! I’ll never put in a tank heater again!
Tankless saved me $25-30 month living alone with a sub $200 gas and electric bill.
If you live in Canada or somewhere up north with hard water. These machines are not very good. Have been through 2 tankless water heaters with flushing an maintenance every 6 months. Stick with the normal water tank! We'll be switching back once this one goes.
GREAT info- I passed it to my son-in-law! I have a tankless system at my NJ house and LOVE IT! In PA I found that where installers don't know HOW to install them, they NIX them!! NOw I'll try to find someon in Florida to replace my tank hot water heater that just broke!
The half-truths in this paid ad are disappointing. I'll just touch on one thing that very few understand: the claim of 95% efficiency. This only happens on condensing units (which are far more expensive), and it's ONLY going to reach that efficiency after you've been drawing hot water for several consecutive minutes. So, unless you have 3 or 4 teenagers in your house who each take a 30 minute shower every day or you operate a commercial dishwasher, you'll never get close to the rated efficiency and you'll NEVER recover the up front cost in gas saving either way. As a licensed plumber and gas contractor, I always explain this to customers who are considering a tankless. All but one has thanked me for educating them.
Underrated comment
I live in quebec , I have free electricity 🤣
I have 2 199 btu Rinnai, one for domestic and one for radiant floor heat. Zero issues heating my home with it last winter.
My Tankless failed in 14 months, it was very problematic shutting down, drawing codes every month or 2. My new one has been running for 5 months with no issues. Probably would never switch to tankless again, but it was very easy to change out when it failed completely.
What brand? Mine has been running for 5years straight in a 6 person house with no issues.
@@geoffmooregm what brand you got?
@@devinsheaven It is a Navien.
We had Naviens in our last 2 houses and they were badass. If you get the recirc. valves the water is INSTANT hot!
My #1 reason was to eliminate the possibility of the tanks flooding the basement. For some reason the previous owner had 2 tanks. Got rid of both 12 years ago with a Rinnai.
I put in a gas tankless hot water heater in 2010, was a few difficulties in getting it installed, but once installed has been great.
I realize that it is ancient history but when I lived in Germany during the early 80's, I had a tankless water heater. It took a certain volume of flow to trigger it on. In my house on top of a mountain, that flow was at full on with the hot tap only. What you got was steam which would peel your skin off. I ended up taking cold showers for over 3 years.
Probably a change in technology, but I've never hit a minimum flow with the one I have currently and you can set the output temp to whatever you want it to be. The only issue I have had in 2+ years of use is when we had the dishwasher and clothes washer running at the same time I wanted to take a shower, I couldn't get it quite as hot as I wanted to. It was maxing out at just a bit cooler than I wanted. Every other day that I've had it, when I get in the shower I set the temp, and it stays at that exact temp for as long as I want to stand there.
never install one off city water
Thanks Matt! My current tank unit was installed in 2001 and I have been waffling back and forth between another tank and going tankless. Unless the quoted price is outrageously different, you just made up my mind. Cheers from North Texas.
I'm on the same boat...
It would be great if you and the sponsor could work through real world applications and how to prevent the hot, cold, hot (pancake) effect. Also tanks give out a more consistent temp and it changes slowly. With our newer and modern tankless if someone runs hot water which changes the temp slightly the shower gets cold and when the water is shut off (like in the case of a dishwasher) the shower gets super hot. I’m sure there are ways to mitigate this this but it’d be nice to see a video addressing common issues in real world applications that your typical installer may not know or may assume isn’t a problem. Thx!
Shhhhhh
The real issue you describe isn't a water heater issue. It is a supply issue. If the incoming water pressure is low there will be more effect on temperature change in the shower mixing cold and hot water. The larger the water supply and smaller the branches will lessen this hot to cold to hot fluctuation. Typically the main lines would be 3/4" tho 1" pipe would be even better except more water would have to be delivered to raise the line temperature. Branches are typically 1/2" pipe wit 3/8" supply lines coming from the supply valves.
@@aNuthaRedneck pancake effect is pretty well known with tankless. In this situation I’ve experienced it with a 40/60 lb well w/a 12gph pump and properly pressurized well tank and the shower is a flow restricted shower head - while a restricted water supply may also cause this, in our case I don’t think it’s a water supply issue.
Ok had my first tankless water heater in 1983. Again in 1999. Works great. Love it !
Installed the same unit on the right and was upset that I had to pay an extra $120 for the vent kit. You can't install the unit without a vent so why didn't it come included?
I think you just answered your own question
@@tubulartuber greed, true that.
Generally venting is sold separately, because houses are different and its not possible to have an omnipotent venting kit that is suitable for every or even most of the installations.
@@PunaJussi Understandable but they shouldn't advertise it showing the vent then. .
yup.. hanging my new tankless outside the house.. you make good videos.. my current tank gas water heater has been running for 20 years.. but takes up a lot of room
I much prefer the tankless water heaters, but I have had not had the experience in longevity that you claim. I have 4 tankless water heaters in the home (including guest house) that we live in. I replaced one after 5 years, the second one after 7 years, the third one after 8 years, but the 4th one is still going strong. I doubt if it will last 2 decades as claimed.
How often the you have them serviced? Once a year is recommended.
I had a gas tankless installed when I remodeled my kitchen. The old “tank” was located in the kitchen. I had already gone through 2 in 15 years. The tankless was moved to the outside and used the old space to create a pantry. I had them install “big blue” water filter going into the tank and additional valves for easy maintenance. There’s no vent needed as it was outside. The remote control is in the pantry. I can run the washer and shower at the same time and see no diminishing of hot water. We also used to run out of hot water after 1 shower. My house is over 70 yrs old and I didn’t have to do any upgrades. I change the filter myself every year. Cost about $80. We have really hard water. Only had 1 flush and descaling so far. Tankless is now 8+ years old. I do see that it doesn’t kick in if tap is opened to low flow. So no hot water at trickle.
try opening tap to full flow till you get hot water, then turn it down to trickle. I'll bet that works.
It costs $80 to maintain it every year? did it lower your gas bill, so it doesn't really save money...
The cold issues we have in Canada aren't with incoming water temps but flu vent problems, in severe cold the condensate in vent pipes ices up quickly and becomes blocked enough the unit shuts down with error code. There's always huge icecicles hanging off the terminations outside in January and February. Also with many units in basements in Canada when you get a lot of snow the vents get burried, and people forget to clear em.
I'm in Canada too. Buy a condensing tankless unit: there's almost no moisture in the exhaust air to freeze. More money, yes, but higher efficiency means less gas burned.
@@paulmaxwell8851 Ya! We have some IBC's and there doing great so far...🤞
then those vents should be higher or whatever needed so they don't get blocked. User should not have to go out in snow to clear vents. Geez it amazes me how much money is spent on construction design yet it so often does not accommodate real life conditions or actual human behavior.
i used stainless steel beer barrel under sink,connected directly to photovoltaic panels,just half a cup before hot water comes out, did same with shower, put hot valve up at shower head with extended handle [ball valve] , fast turn on and almost instant hot water from shower head, very happy with result......
I don’t consider the statements he’s making to be “ lies” …..they are all very valid points made in the field and each application has its own challenges. I’m sure there are many many cases where each lie can be confirmed as very true.
But that's not how Rinnai wrote the script don't you know. Early in the video is comparing 60% efficient tanked to tankless but then sure isn't using that same tanked model's price when talking about how tankless are the same price.
@@jh-12358 couldn’t agree more…. Gotta stick to the script 👍 . One example…Currently where I work ( Maine,USA) if a water heater ( tank) goes bad it can be replaced in almost no time with a subsidized heat pump HW heater for 1/10th the cost to the homeowner compared to switching to a tankless and cost go go much higher if no gas in the building.
Another example about how long it takes HW to get to a fixture…. That’s just crazy to call it a “lie” because that applies equally to ALL types of hot water sources.
@@dominicm2175 that "subsidized" heat pump may be attractive to purchase, but for those of us in California paying $0.39/KWH, it will cost a fortune to run. The politicians want us to get on board, but they haven't really come to grips with the fact much of our power is generated through burning affordable natural gas. Solar is plentiful, but storage is not. California's environmentalists hate zero-carbon nuclear power, and are set to decommission our last plant in the next couple of years (responsible currently for 10% of our power source). I'm glad we have gas service to our home, and will continue to leverage the lower operational cost of gas utility over electric. I'm excited to put our new Rinnai tankless into service later this year.
@@jh-12358 I kinda question the efficiency figures. In a tankless water is constantly moving through the system so there is little time to apply heat. in a tank, every calorie of heat MUST pass to the water before it dissipates. The very fact these tankless heaters need huge amounts of power to do the same job a tanked one can also casts doubt on those efficient numbers.
@@steveloux4709 Embedded solar PV in your roof tiles along with the right battery storage system in California is the best option. Then you can ditch the electric company and the gas company. All electric appliances and cars (or trucks) are the way forward. Get on board.
Scale is an issue depending on where you live. If you live in Phoenix, you don't want a tankless unit. I installed one in place of the tank that went bad, and within 3 months it was already failing due to scale build up.
Fortunately, the manufacturer continued to send me the parts, over and over until the warranty ran out. 2 years. Despite my every attempt to descale the thing, it just wasn't possible to maintain.
Energy efficiency is not often a valid reason to purchase one. For us, saving approximately $100.00 per year for our family of 6, would give us a 26 year payoff. Certainly not going to change out for efficiency alone. Never have run out of hot water with a family of 6, so not a reason to change out for us. Maybe if our tank gives out eventually.
Your math is wrong because you didn't deduct the cost of the tank option
First if your water supply is cold even the bigger units will restrict flow to heat the water up You have the 6-10 second delay while it starts up and begins to make hot water so even if you have a circulating system you will end up with a big slug of cold water. The worst is if you have a shower that switches from wall to hand held unit the tank will see that as a flow stop then give you a nice splash of cold water in the middle of your hot shower. Add in the yearly maintenance added upfront cost and if you go by the actual energy guides there is a good case tank types are cheaper to run. Now in warmer climates or for vacation properties it might make sense but after owning one I will never again have one.
The thing with tankless heaters is that they are extremely finicky. They require annual maintenance, they need good quality water and proper filtration, and they need to be installed exactly to manufacturers specs. If you don't have all 3 of things in order, the chances are your tankless will fail prematurely and hence, why they have such a bad reputation.
Whereas with a traditional water heater, anybody can throw one of them things in and it'll give you 7-10 years of hot water with no problems until it becomes time to replace it. Home owners just don't want anything to worry about and they want the cheapest solution and if that's the case, sticking with traditional water heaters is still the way to go. Converting to a tankless is not cheap and the benefits simply don't outweigh the upfront cost.
Not to mention, you need to do your research with these things and not just pick any one off the shelf. There are some manufacturers of tankless units like Navien that just make defective units and you don't want to find out after spending $10000 to convert to a tankless that the unit you put in is defective and will need to be replaced in a couple of years.
They never told me that I'd have to flush my tankless with vinegar every year to keep it working. Now it's leaking after 14 years. Never again.
@trainofthough0242 & Stephen Willis: 14 yrs.? Just replace it. I bought mine online for less than $100.00. Never even seen one priced at 10k. I think you're spreading horse manure. Let me guess: You sell water heaters, right?
A friend wanted tankless but the nationally-chained plumbing company said she'd have nothing but trouble because of the well water.
This post is a lot of BS
@@doubleganger2 if it ain’t broke don’t fix it that’s my opinion on water heaters. Tank units work much better imo. Never had any issues with a tank unit.
So I split the difference a few years ago. I went with a 50 gal HTP stainless tank 97% efficiency gas water heater. It has 77k BTU input and recovery is very fast. So it is essentially like a tankless unit with a highly insulated tank that is condensing with PVC pipe for air intake and exhaust. It was around $2500. It works like a champ and I don't need to worry about scaling maintenance, like with tankless heaters that blast incoming cold water with very high temps that knock out minerals in the water.
Matt, didn’t you install a heat pump tank style water heater in your home remodel? If so, curious why not a tankless?
It is whoever he is being sponsored by.
Heat Pump water heaters like the Sanden CO2 is by far the most efficient and long lasting. There are reasons tankless might make sense, but for efficiency and every day use, tankless doesn't make sense especially if you have hot water recirculation loops.
because he is a shill who goes with what the sponsors pay for
Don't have a Rinnai but I've used an electric EcoSmart tankless water heater for about five years and love it. Had to hire an electrician to add three double pole breakers to my electric box but other than that the heater took me about ten minutes to install...les time than to remove the old tank heater. It has copper pipes and being electric doesn't need venting or anything else, just one inlet and one outlet and a lot of juice. However, since it only runs when I need it I actually save on my power bill. I'll never live in a house without an electric tankless again. Oh and the unit itself was only $350
apparently a main "advantage" of a tankless, i.e. not running out of hot water, would more simply be cured by having a larger tank. in other words, it is not an advantage of tankless over tank, only of tankless over inadequate tank. I started out believing in tankless but after seeing all the issues with error codes, parts replacements, parts not available, plus more demanding venting, wiring, piping... and no hot water with electric outage?!... I'm just gonna get a larger tank. For larger homes, more than one tank seems to work fine especially where there's distance between plumbing stacks.
That is an advantage but not the main advantage. The main advantage is there is NO STANDBY LOSS. 1 POUND OF WATER 1 DEGREE 1BTU! This is obviously a very difficult concept for you to understand! Go make a pot of coffee, turn off the machine and come back in a couple of hours and get yourself a cup of coffee...what happened? The coffee is cold! why? Because the heat has escaped to the atmosphere! Insulation slows the process but when you are talking about an uninsulated flue tied into a chimney that continuously pulls cool basement air up through the water heater it loses it's heat almost as fast as that coffee pot. A larger tank will just hold more pounds of water and will cost you even more.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 well duh, guess what, i DO understand standby loss, and it is one reason i started out thinking tankless was the way to go. Clearly you have more interest in calling me stupid, than in acknowledging that the MANY issues i listed are relevant for at least some users.
VERY helpful and answered all my lingering questions. Thanks from Canada.
One interest thing that I found (accidentally due to aeshetic choices) is that separate hot/cold controls work much better for temperature adjustments with tankless. And it's best to turn the hot on first then adjust by adding in cold, especially for the more distant faucets. My experience anyway.
I used a Navian commercial grade tankless heater for my restaurant and it's been working amazingly. I do need to do some maintenance on it though. It's been 2 years since we put it in and haven't serviced it. I've seen some service videos and it's a quick DIY friendly process. Planning to install the combo unit for my house for both heating and hot water so I can discard the old boiler and hot wated heater to add a ton of extra closet space where the old units were
I'm leaning towards the Navien NPE-A2 for my home
I had a Rinnai tankless (non-condensing) that was mounted on the outside of my house. Two things that weren't covered in this video that I will tell you are absolute truths and could make your decision to NOT get a tankless. 1) If mounted outside it can freeze, and when it does, it stops ALL water in your house. 2) If you have a high efficiency low water usage washing machine for your laundry, you will NEVER get hot water in a cycle.
I have a Rinnai condensing unit. If an exterior-mounted heater freezes, it stops the flow in the hot side of your plumbing. The cold continues to run, obviously. You still have running water. Solution: don't mount this units outside if freezing is a possibility. As for the high-efficiency washing machines, we have one. It runs just fine and gets the hot water it needs. I suspect you have a long, long run from heater to washing machine, so sure, that could be a problem. However, pull out that unit, install a tank-type and you'll still have the same problem. You need to have the water heater (any type) in your laundry room for maximum efficiency. That's where everyone I know puts it.
@@paulmaxwell8851 - "The cold continues to run, obviously. You still have running water. " - nope ALL water flow stopped. Could have been a poor install by plumber, but plz don't presume to tell me my lived experience is invalid.
As for the washing machine, you are wrong about that was well. Our tankless was a retrofit on a house that was nearly 30 years old. Laundry off the garage, WH in the basement, fairly central to the kitchen and 4 bedrooms.
@@carlwebinar1571 I'm not sure how it could stop your cold supply. Cold comes in from the street to your meter and then splits off the feed line to each fixture needing cold water, including the tankless (the tankless then makes the incoming cold water hot), hot then originates from your tankless. Cold water to your fixtures like tub, sinks etc doesn't take a path through your water heater. What's likely is that your main supply froze as there's no way to blame the water heater (tank or tankless) for losing cold supply to the house.
@@nutritionperfection - I took a heat gun to the outside portion of the tankless (the heat exchanger as I recall) and after about 10 minutes, everything was fine. I live in Atlanta and it got down to 8°F overnight, very atypical.
or a hot tub on a refill.. Or 3 gallons or ore waste cold water for a shower..I aint going into a damn cold shower.. I use 5 gallon buckets to catch cold water.. Use elsewhere..
Great video! I need to change out the water heater on my house and my rental. These videos have helped me figure out what I want to go with.
I have a non-condensing Rinnai and it takes 10 seconds from when I turn on a tap to when the outlet pipe starts to warm up, and maybe another 5 seconds until it's at full temperature. So there is definitely some extra delay compared to a tank. Of course the 60+ feet of 3/4 pipe from the WH to the bathroom doesn't help either. I'm replacing it with a hybrid water heater (located closer to the bathroom) because a heat pump is more efficient than even a gas condensing water heater.
I reside in Northern Virginia. Four years ago I purchased and professionally installed a top-of-the-line WW Granger German ELECTRIC all house tankless. During the winter of 21/22 the tank’s internal circuit breakers kept popping because the external water temperature was too cold. Two tankless professionals from two different plumbing companies confirmed that it was the ‘extreme’ difference between the external water temperature and the setting on the tankless. I reduced the temperature setting on the tankless from 115 to 100 degrees. No joy. I reluctantly went back to the tank. The tankless just would not work in this cold temperature latitude. I was lucky to get 3 1/2 years. It turned out to be a very expensive experiment.
Matt, didn't you learn your lesson 2 winters ago about putting a water heater OUTSIDE the conditioned envelope of the house?
This is a paid advertising not a no bs overlook.
He never mentioned outside units in the video
@@Steve-bm2zm Right at the very beginning. "You can even put them outside"
Agree that I would generally put these inside the home. We froze a bunch of tankless units when my past clients lost power for a week a few winters ago.
He's still showing plumbers installing plumbing in exterior walls in every other video... including in his own house (though at least he has some exterior insulation). So, nope. Texas builders learned not a single thing from getting a taste of winter. They're still plumbing exterior walls and still running supply lines above ground and still not installing isolation valves and drains behind their hose bibs and still willing to put a water heater outside.
Years ago I bought a Renai cheap at Costco ($850 condensing). Then it sat for 4 years while I kept getting higher and higher quotes to install it. Last quote came in at $5000. Eventually found a gas fireplace guy to do it for $1200. Worked great ever since although it takes a couple minutes to get hot water to the shower. About a minute to get the heater spooled up then another minute for hot water to shower. Take longer hotter showers than the old gas tank heater and the gas bill is about 40% lower
My buddy had a tankless installed, it has been a nightmare from the get go. His wife and kids are ready to bar be que him. So what should be off the radar for hot water, it's a gamble to convert. No thanks.
Sometimes it doesn't make sense. my Dad had a 30 ft run of half inch copper in stucco in his basement ceiling leading to his 30 gallon tank. Tearing out a ceiling or tearing up a hardwood floor would have been necessary to run 3/4 inch to a tankless. But for me it was a breeze everthing was right where it needed to be, the concentric vent that I needed was like $30. Mine worked flawlessly. With the exception that I had to run the kitchen hot faucet for a few seconds when I first used the dishwasher. I later found out that was because I had a single water inlet on the washing machine and was using a Y hose to feed it. The backfeed through the Y hose was enough to not allow the pressure drop from the dishwasher to trigger the tankless.
I got my 199k BTU tankless on clearance for half price(~$500) from Builder's Square when they were shutting down. Was a Bosch but I think it was a re-branded Japanese unit.Finally installed it in 2003 when my tank started leaking. I installed it my self and it has been mostly trouble-free. Sometime it will not activate at too low of flow and sometimes if it sits for a long time without use (months - living with girlfriend), the flow wheel will not spin and has to be freed up by hand.
What about those heat pump water heaters you've done videos on?
in 2014, I was working a contract job away from home and I rented a new one bedroom apartment that had a tankless gas fired water heater. When I took a shower, the hot water demand wasn't high enough to keep the heater on, so the shower water went cold. I had to turn on the hot water at the sink while I was showering to keep the hot water demand up in order for the heater to stay on. So, keep your tankless water heater. The 50 gallon electric water heater in my home that I bought new started leaking a little after 25 years. I never had any trouble with it before with the original heating elements still working fine. I replaced it myself with a unit from Home Depot for about $450 total....
I paid 1200$ for my 1st tankless that I bought myself, copper heat exchanger. After 8 years heat exchanger started leaking. To expensive to have it replaced. I also had a huge cost in double wall stainless exhaust. Bought a new tankless ,2000$ and had it installed 500$ , stainless heat exchanger this time. Recirculating pump went out after 3 years, pump under warranty, not labor, 350$ . Both units Noritz. Add the cost up, yes they save you operating cost, but it will take you 20 years to recoup the cost. Then it’s time to start all over. Your standard heater goes out, you have it replaced the next day at a 4th of the cost. Going back to a standard tank unit. The experiment failed!
The unit with a pump. Was it made in Korea? Both Noritz and Rheem sold a Korean brand and put their name on it. It was supposed to be a fill gap to compete with Navien. It didn’t go well for either company. That particular unit was originally designed for hydronic heat. Even installed correctly these units have a horrible break down record.
You should have tried a Rinnai. They last way longer than a Noritz. Probably why Matt used that brand for his video. Mine is from 2004 and I probably paid for maintenance like 5 times which is a simple flush.. mine still going strong...
I've had a tankless for years, and I've been delighted, but once in a while, it'll shut off with an error code, which really sucks when you're in the shower. Turning it off/on resets it and no issues after that. Obviously, it might need to be investigated by a service technician but it happens so rarely that it's more of an annoyance than a problem.
The only other issue is the required flow to have hot water. For example, if I have the hot water coming out of the sink at a somewhat low flow, after a bit the hot water will stop being produced. This is why if you still have a shower with two knobs, I'd upgrade it to one where the flow is consistent.
Actually you’ll find that a two knob shower is safer to run regarding an older mid efficiency unit. Some single handle shower can make the tankless unit code out. Single handle showers when they’ve matured can cause crossover issues which become a nightmare on newer units with pumps.
If I were building new, sure, tankless all the way. At under a grand, the actual cost of the heater isn’t that bad. The problem is the punitive pricing by plumbers in some areas. You’re absolutely correct, it takes no longer to install than a regular tank-so how does the plumber justify a $5000 installation vs a $1200 installed tank? It’s the same problem as mini-split HVAC, it’s different so the contractors want a guaranteed profit, instead of saying “it’s 140 and hour, 3-hour minimum. Takes as long as it takes.” They just tell you “about $5k” to install an $800 heater.
The person who answered the phone makes a salary. The person who created your invoice makes a salary. The plumber makes a salary. The truck/van the plumber showed up in cost money. The gas the truck used to get him there cost money. The plumbing shop has a furnace, A/C, lights, and computers that all have to be paid for. The plumbing shop stocks inventory. The plumbing shop probably has other useful assets like a fork lift and scissor lift and a few hundred thousand to a few million dollars worth of specialty tools (a decent 5/8 cable drain 'rooter' machine is almost 5 grand these days... a decent truck mounted hot water jetter is about a 100 grand these days) The vehicles need insurance. The building needs insurance. The employees need work comp and health insurance. The plumbing shop pays a garbage and scrap metal collection company to dispose of the waste created at the office and on the jobs. If the shop is more than a couple of plumbers, they probably also pay for cleaning and grounds maintenance. Building permits cost money. Materials cost money. And... don't get me started on the *taxes*.... If you can do it yourself, then do it yourself. If you can fix it yourself, then fix it yourself. If you can't, won't, or don't have time, maybe consider what you're paying for is for a business to exist in your community that you can call upon to do things you can't, won't, or don't have time to do. Being in business aint cheap and it gets harder every day in this economy for any business to stay in business and keep feeding the families that rely upon the jobs that business supports.
@@betweenfiveandseven So the cliff notes are... Plumbers have overhead, if its so easy UA-cam the video do it your self and when you call me I can charge you twice as much.... One to fix what you screwed up and then to do the original job...
also I'm not a fan of thankless....
Not really. In an older home they can have their tanks in a whole bunch of spaces. These models shown were plugged into an outlet which could not even be available on the same floor. Never mind the extra gas requirement and fresh air requirement. If it's the same tech then yes unplug old plug in new
@@betweenfiveandseven I’d like to thank Gabby Johnson for that authentic display of frontier gibberish, and I’m glad these kids could be here today to see it.
I’m not complaining about paying the plumber, and I fully understand the concept of the cost of doing business. What I’m complaining about is plumbers charging five times as much for the same number of man-hours of work, based on them being less familiar with it. If you have a reason why it costs 5x as much to install a tankless as it does a tank, I’d be interested in hearing it. Otherwise I’ll let you return to yelling at kids to get out of your yard.
@@jasonm.7358 You were likely given a choice between accepting the bid or having the job done time and material. That's regular old boilerplate industry standard sort of practice. If you think there's a greater chance that time and material will save you money and the plumber won't run in to any significant challenges during the install that might drive up the cost, take the gamble and choose time and material. This is America, bubba. You have *choices* and your destiny is in your own hands. No one is holding you over a barrel.
We installed the tankless in all our homes since 2001. Over 1500 installed. Great invention!
I'd love to see a similar video addressing electric tankless water heaters.
Was just thinking this
Or how long it takes before the water is warm!
@@godzilla2k26 I traveled through Asia quite a bit and a lot of homes have tankless water. I've also been in a home in north America that had a tankless system for an upstairs bathroom. They're just as fast to get hot water if not faster than a regular tank heater. Like he mentions in the video, the time it takes to get hot water mostly depends on how long it takes to clear cold water that's sitting in the pipes between your faucet/shower and the heater, just like a regular water heater.
My experience in Asia is that a lot of these are installed at the site of service (I think they're electric in that case) and the hot water basically comes out within a few seconds because the heater is already right there at the shower head or at least in the bathroom.
Look at power requirements for electric tankless heaters before you get excited.
@@katherinelandreth2191 The one at our church is really slow to get up to temperature. But it replaced the old water heater and isn't close to the point of service, so that could be a significant factor. So in Asia are there multiple heaters per house or is it the point of service is just built closer to where you access the water?
Thanks. I am building and have a well water, 400 amps and no gas. I am just finishing a utility building which will have two 32 gallon pressure tanks. The building is R22 and will have heat so my water should temper to about 60 degrees. I will have an outdoor shower so I am going to put an RTEX-11 for the utility building. My Garage/Studio is about 200' away and I will add another pressure tank in a heated space and two RTEX 11's. One for the bathroom and one for the kitchen/washer. I will valve Bypasses so if one fails I can fall back to one unit. I will see how that all works before I build the main house.