A life-saving skill. Thank you for the demo. I can think of at least half a dozen fatal scuba accidents initiated by free flowing regulator at depth, that could have been avoided had the divers involved mastered this skill.
Hi Achim. Really appreciate the videos. Unfortunately I came to diving late in life and am now 65 yrs old. As you get old, you can get problems that restrict mobility in the shoulders and for that reason I thought it unwise to go on to tech diving even though I wanted to. Then I discovered sidemount! Feathering the valve is so much easier when it is right in front of you :-) It was taught as part of my very first recreational sidemount training. So now, if I am using multiple tanks, it is always sidemount. Thanks once again for a great series of videos, I have learned a lot.
Great video. This is actually why I have a double valve on a single cylinder and two independent first stages. As a bonus I can use the same setup when diving with doubles without having to change anything.
Very clear bespoken how to handle the situation without getting stress. But maybe it is also thinkable to use two first stages on one bottle. This would avoid loosing gas...
I guess now I know why it would make sense to have a Y valve and have two independent regulators attached on a single cylinder. That way you could shut down the one regulator that is free flowing or a the one with a ruptured hose.
is there no such thing as little ball valves that could fit on the 1st stage on all low pressure hoses so that a diver could close the air to a hose which bursts. Nothing like this exists or does it. You know like the ball on off valves on garden hoses but something smaller that would fit the reg.
That's a big debate: - adding more moving parts, and therefore potential points of equipment failure Vs. - training for a skill that could overcome a situation In this case, the probability to have a LP hose to burst/leak that badly is to be compared with the probability to make something wrong with those valves. For instance: the octo hose is accidentally shut, buddy needs air, buddy grabs your octo, thinks you are out of air too -> panic in the disco I feel more comfortable to learn this skill for a very unlikely situation than to add moving parts in my kit that could potentially be more harmful. Am I wrong to think this way?
The ascent took about 90 seconds. So from 30m it would be about 20m/minute, which is about the same as the Navy tables, which don't require a safety stop. While a slower ascent and safety stop would reduce the risk of getting bent, I'd rather risk a slight chance of a mild DCS hit than drown due to lack of air. If the gauge were checked (without compromising the overall execution of the ascent) and sufficient air was available, the ascent rate could be reduced and a safety stop added. Neither would be an option with a CESA. Besides being a good technique to have available in an emergency, this kind of practice also develops overall skill, confidence and situational awareness for diving in general.
HI Chris, Thanks. what brought you to the conclusion that the asscent was made from 30 meters? (in fact is was something around 10 meters if I remeber right) It was just a demo of the skill and an ascent with 2o meters / min would never be recommended. As usefull as this skill is and as much as we like the self reliant diver we also have a buddy all the time - so "out of gas" and beeing forced to do that is VERY unlikely. But as you say - it builds skill and confidence.
I used 30m as an example, reasoning that even from that depth it would be a reasonable ascent rate in an emergency. From 10m it would be reasonable at any time. And I agree with you that it is very unlikely to be necessary. Thank you for all the great information on this channel.
Hi Ian, honestly no. Every ISE diver can manipulate his own valves - it is a basic skill. If you cant - it is 99% not your body that need training - it is a backplate not fitted properly - tanks assambled not right, undergarments and drysuits with a bad cut and so on. Actually it is a great topic for an extra video. Best
When I was learning to dive doubles I used to practice a stretch where I would reach down the middle of my back while gently pushing back on my elbow, which was next to my head, with my other hand. I also would stretch each arm horizontally, e..g with the left arm reach my elbow toward my right shoulder while gently pressing my elbow back with my right arm. I still do these exercises almost every day. It has come in handy several times. One time, on my instructor exam I was demonstrating regulator recovery in the standard 'lean right and sweep the arm' method but the reg had free-flowed and was waving around above my head. Having practiced several times, I reached back, found the hose where it emerged from the first stage, and recovered the reg (all while smiling and blowing bubbles). I've also had boat operators turn my valve on for me and found underwater that it was only open half a turn. When the tank pressure drops a bit breathing becomes more difficult, and being able to open it myself came in handy.
Thanks here is a question for you. Is there any way one can install on/off valves right to the first stage before the hoses on the regulators, bcd inflator hose and high pressure spg hose? Or would this be too bulky too complicated?
You can, omniswivel makes good on/offs, but for such a rare malfunction in the real world, you would introduce many failure points with the on/offs, and cause a higher possibility of failure in my view.
if 3 m/min with a stop is fast - then yes, you are right. the point was to show the technique. I am happy to demonstrate it from any depth, but could be a bit boring for the viewer i guess :-D but thanks for your concern.
i understood the idea but .... from 20 or 30 meters would be risky. And another point: nof all divers havd thid mobility. Feathering a single tank id sometimes very very difficult because of thr podition of the valve.
Sorry if I dissagree here. Every diver should be able to manipulate his or her own valve and every ISE diver can. It is a matter of proper training and a proper gear setup.
Hi Achim. You brought up something I'd like you to address. I have about 600 dives under my belt, do all kinds of diving from twinsets to twin SM, deep, cave, rebreather, etc. and I do dive DIR, and teach that way. However, I also do "solo diving," and I assume at some point you do too. You mentioned that you "do not recommend" solo diving. I also don't, unless someone is very well trained to do so with at least 150 or 200 dives. When I do solo dive, I stay well within my own established limits of safety and have therefore developed serious self reliance skills, as I have no one to rely on other than myself. Some of these include shallower depth, absolute redundancy and a mental survival plan for a safe ascent to and on the surface. I do not do any solo decompression diving, although, because I understand and use Ratio Deco, I can do that on the fly if for some reason I had to. I also only dive solo in very calm, water. If there are waves, currents or surges, I wait until the next day. Again, because I mainly dive shallow (have done 2 hour dives at with an average of less than 10 meters, even though I might venture down deeper at the very beginning) I feel that solo diving, like solo flying, skiing, horseback riding into the forests, etc. can be relatively safe - accepting that there are also risks that solo diving alone might incur.
Thanks! Interesting point. Same as when teaching to show the spg to the out of gas diver. The question is: what is the benefit? What do you do when you see the air is low? stop breathing? WE think it is more important to focus on a perfect "escape" then by interupting the procedure by checking a gassource that you cant influence anyway.
thanks for the reply! yes, I see your point. But if I imagin to really be in this situation, I would want to know when to expect the air to stop coming, maybe to prepare my buddy for donation. I think I couldn't "resist" checking... I think if you want to continue your dive, fe. after a frozen first stage, it is (of course) important to check if you got enough air left to continue. Regarding the OOA situation, I think I would just show my spg to the diver sucking my tanks to calm him down if nessecary. Ps: a video about how to set uf the rig for best trim would be much apprechiated, espacially because I tend to fall towards my head if I mount my tank to high. thx!
that is my point. The way diving is taught today (mostly) sucks big time and we believe it´s time for a change! This "cheaper, faster" concept is bad for everybody - the future diver, the environment and the industry.
A life-saving skill. Thank you for the demo. I can think of at least half a dozen fatal scuba accidents initiated by free flowing regulator at depth, that could have been avoided had the divers involved mastered this skill.
Hi Achim. Really appreciate the videos. Unfortunately I came to diving late in life and am now 65 yrs old. As you get old, you can get problems that restrict mobility in the shoulders and for that reason I thought it unwise to go on to tech diving even though I wanted to. Then I discovered sidemount! Feathering the valve is so much easier when it is right in front of you :-) It was taught as part of my very first recreational sidemount training. So now, if I am using multiple tanks, it is always sidemount. Thanks once again for a great series of videos, I have learned a lot.
Great video. This is actually why I have a double valve on a single cylinder and two independent first stages. As a bonus I can use the same setup when diving with doubles without having to change anything.
I love the video.This unlikely situation and a solution.
Very clear bespoken how to handle the situation without getting stress. But maybe it is also thinkable to use two first stages on one bottle. This would avoid loosing gas...
That's a great video/lesson. Thank you.
I guess now I know why it would make sense to have a Y valve and have two independent regulators attached on a single cylinder. That way you could shut down the one regulator that is free flowing or a the one with a ruptured hose.
Nice video agree with cutting the hose it really rammed the point home, would you ever advocate a free assent
Master😮
After dive when shutting valve with hose broken under water, I would check 1st stage for water that might and most probaly did get in.
is there no such thing as little ball valves that could fit on the 1st stage on all low pressure hoses so that a diver could close the air to a hose which bursts. Nothing like this exists or does it. You know like the ball on off valves on garden hoses but something smaller that would fit the reg.
That's a big debate:
- adding more moving parts, and therefore potential points of equipment failure
Vs.
- training for a skill that could overcome a situation
In this case, the probability to have a LP hose to burst/leak that badly is to be compared with the probability to make something wrong with those valves. For instance: the octo hose is accidentally shut, buddy needs air, buddy grabs your octo, thinks you are out of air too -> panic in the disco
I feel more comfortable to learn this skill for a very unlikely situation than to add moving parts in my kit that could potentially be more harmful.
Am I wrong to think this way?
The ascent took about 90 seconds. So from 30m it would be about 20m/minute, which is about the same as the Navy tables, which don't require a safety stop. While a slower ascent and safety stop would reduce the risk of getting bent, I'd rather risk a slight chance of a mild DCS hit than drown due to lack of air. If the gauge were checked (without compromising the overall execution of the ascent) and sufficient air was available, the ascent rate could be reduced and a safety stop added. Neither would be an option with a CESA. Besides being a good technique to have available in an emergency, this kind of practice also develops overall skill, confidence and situational awareness for diving in general.
HI Chris, Thanks.
what brought you to the conclusion that the asscent was made from 30 meters? (in fact is was something around 10 meters if I remeber right) It was just a demo of the skill and an ascent with 2o meters / min would never be recommended. As usefull as this skill is and as much as we like the self reliant diver we also have a buddy all the time - so "out of gas" and beeing forced to do that is VERY unlikely. But as you say - it builds skill and confidence.
I used 30m as an example, reasoning that even from that depth it would be a reasonable ascent rate in an emergency. From 10m it would be reasonable at any time. And I agree with you that it is very unlikely to be necessary. Thank you for all the great information on this channel.
Are there any out of water exercises you do so you can reach the valve? And maybe also help with reaching twin set valves.
Hi Ian,
honestly no. Every ISE diver can manipulate his own valves - it is a basic skill. If you cant - it is 99% not your body that need training - it is a backplate not fitted properly - tanks assambled not right, undergarments and drysuits with a bad cut and so on. Actually it is a great topic for an extra video. Best
yes, would be good to see a video of backplate positioning and techniques on how most effectively operate the valve.
on the list, will do that soon.
When I was learning to dive doubles I used to practice a stretch where I would reach down the middle of my back while gently pushing back on my elbow, which was next to my head, with my other hand. I also would stretch each arm horizontally, e..g with the left arm reach my elbow toward my right shoulder while gently pressing my elbow back with my right arm. I still do these exercises almost every day. It has come in handy several times. One time, on my instructor exam I was demonstrating regulator recovery in the standard 'lean right and sweep the arm' method but the reg had free-flowed and was waving around above my head. Having practiced several times, I reached back, found the hose where it emerged from the first stage, and recovered the reg (all while smiling and blowing bubbles). I've also had boat operators turn my valve on for me and found underwater that it was only open half a turn. When the tank pressure drops a bit breathing becomes more difficult, and being able to open it myself came in handy.
Thanks here is a question for you. Is there any way one can install on/off valves right to the first stage before the hoses on the regulators, bcd inflator hose and high pressure spg hose? Or would this be too bulky too complicated?
You can, omniswivel makes good on/offs, but for such a rare malfunction in the real world, you would introduce many failure points with the on/offs, and cause a higher possibility of failure in my view.
There must be a way one can clamp the hose and shut it down no?
Yes. A second valve. You are not able to hold ten bars by hand.
and at the end of this ascent, if it was from 20 m, ready the DAN O2 kit , call chopper and go to baric chamber directly :)
and why exactly?
to me it seems like a continous fast ascent
if 3 m/min with a stop is fast - then yes, you are right. the point was to show the technique. I am happy to demonstrate it from any depth, but could be a bit boring for the viewer i guess :-D but thanks for your concern.
i understood the idea but .... from 20 or 30 meters would be risky. And another point: nof all divers havd thid mobility. Feathering a single tank id sometimes very very difficult because of thr podition of the valve.
Sorry if I dissagree here. Every diver should be able to manipulate his or her own valve and every ISE diver can. It is a matter of proper training and a proper gear setup.
Hi Achim. You brought up something I'd like you to address. I have about 600 dives under my belt, do all kinds of diving from twinsets to twin SM, deep, cave, rebreather, etc. and I do dive DIR, and teach that way. However, I also do "solo diving," and I assume at some point you do too. You mentioned that you "do not recommend" solo diving. I also don't, unless someone is very well trained to do so with at least 150 or 200 dives. When I do solo dive, I stay well within my own established limits of safety and have therefore developed serious self reliance skills, as I have no one to rely on other than myself. Some of these include shallower depth, absolute redundancy and a mental survival plan for a safe ascent to and on the surface. I do not do any solo decompression diving, although, because I understand and use Ratio Deco, I can do that on the fly if for some reason I had to. I also only dive solo in very calm, water. If there are waves, currents or surges, I wait until the next day. Again, because I mainly dive shallow (have done 2 hour dives at with an average of less than 10 meters, even though I might venture down deeper at the very beginning) I feel that solo diving, like solo flying, skiing, horseback riding into the forests, etc. can be relatively safe - accepting that there are also risks that solo diving alone might incur.
Nice and relaxed, impressive! however, in the courses i did, you fail this "task" when you dont check the spg.
Thanks! Interesting point. Same as when teaching to show the spg to the out of gas diver. The question is: what is the benefit? What do you do when you see the air is low? stop breathing? WE think it is more important to focus on a perfect "escape" then by interupting the procedure by checking a gassource that you cant influence anyway.
thanks for the reply! yes, I see your point. But if I imagin to really be in this situation, I would want to know when to expect the air to stop coming, maybe to prepare my buddy for donation. I think I couldn't "resist" checking... I think if you want to continue your dive, fe. after a frozen first stage, it is (of course) important to check if you got enough air left to continue. Regarding the OOA situation, I think I would just show my spg to the diver sucking my tanks to calm him down if nessecary.
Ps: a video about how to set uf the rig for best trim would be much apprechiated, espacially because I tend to fall towards my head if I mount my tank to high.
thx!
I understand your disagreement. Make a 4 dive beginner owd do that....
that is my point. The way diving is taught today (mostly) sucks big time and we believe it´s time for a change! This "cheaper, faster" concept is bad for everybody - the future diver, the environment and the industry.