@@Mr__JackI still remember the early tournaments that featured the meter being super bad because Zelda effectively had a win button she could only press once her opponent was above a very generous percent that was very easy for her to achieve, while the opponent very much kept fighting to keep that percent from ever reaching the low margin to avoid the instant kill, while trying to drain meter from Zelda by KOing her, which wasn't easy because people weren't used to fighting Ultimate Zelda as they're now While she had the normal percent thing of Smash, her opponent actually had a very small HP bar disguised as a percent, and once her opponent is at 33-60%, its up to her to decide if they continue fighting or get instantly sent to the shadow realm, as she can trigger her FS from everywhere, and it will suck the opponent through most obstructions like walls, floors, and ceilings, and its suction range is m a s s i v e, so there's no escape on any of the legal stages
@@michaelplaysbass8311oh fck… ur right, I don’t know what to expect w duck hunt. That’s one of the characters I truly rarely don’t play against in elite smash with
Yeahh. I haven't played too much smash ultimate but in the days of smash 4 when I would bring my 3ds to school and play other people I was a pretty good zelda. Like her combo game was insane. My biggest complaints were that her up special was kinda clunky and her side special puts her I to free fall. The amount of time I sd'd cuz I accidentally triggered din's fire is insane. The reason why I liked her was cuz she had a fast reflect move to deal with the people that like to rely on projectile spam and her moves were so rewarding to land
same with Ganon too(at least until recent melee tier lists,who put him at lower mid tier.) but still,he has been considered ass for almost over 17 years now lol
i remember randomly reading Zelda’s smash wiki pages and ult’s page said “she is ranked 75th out of 82, her best placement in the series” and I was just like 😐
Nah FR- her Brawl model was honestly her best model, WiiU coming in close second, both versions also looked like actual fierce and clever princesses rather then a child cosplaying a princess- like, her ultimate model looks really pretty but it’s giving fairy tail princess vibes… which doesn’t really fit the Zelda we see in most LoZ games
I think her core being designed around Melee Zelda is a huge deal. Why could they not give her new moves that make sense for her? Many of her attacks are these slow stubby melee attacks in the face of all the magic she possesses, and the actual magic she uses is also just too lopsided to effectively use with the rest of her kit. Phantom didn't really ever fix this, it just gave her a win condition.
It doesn't help that the Zelda they now have isn't the same Stoic Woman that the previous Zeldas were, meaning her having more energetic and less reserved attacks makes character sense as well.
Zelda needs to be redesigned to have way more light-based attacks. The times we actually see her fight in the Zelda games, she's using light based energy. This has the potential to make her a much faster and better zoning character. Why not give her light arrows for starters? She knows how to wield a bow. Nintendo could do her some favors by making her a playable character in the next Zelda game to inspire new moves. They could maybe even go the Xena route and make her physically stronger. Ganondorf similarly needs to be using WAY more dark magic in his moveset. Legacy xp actually experimented with this, and while it's ridiculous, it's pretty innovate.
The reason they try to avoid adding or removing moves as much as possible is because they fear doing that will alienate the people who play those characters. I don't necessarily agree with that logic even though I do understand where they're coming from but there you go.
Not to mention a lot of them feel strangely similar to Peaches despite being VERY different characters. Peach has so much air control to allow her to be a lot more in your face/physical alongside her float and turnips. Zelda has none of this so why would they for any reason base her relative weight, floatiness, speed and having short ranged physical moves like Peach without any mechanics in place to make up for it (air based or grounded). To me Zelda should feel or be more similar to kinda how some trap setters like Isabelle should be mechanics wise (camping “deal with my bullshit”), yet for base reference for how her moves should look or function I would say she should feel a lot like Palutena.
@@nahor88 Many people like her concept. Lightning kick is iconic. Just some moves should be replaced and some moves seriously buffed. Her main issue is her ending lag on everything that is completly uncalled for.
As a Smash Ultimate Zelda main, I sadly already knew all of this, but I do like the little details you added. At the end of the day, she’s way too reliant on risk and making hard reads, for what amounts to less reward compared to other characters. On the other hand, getting a cheeky teleport kill or playing mind games to squeeze out a win are very satisfying.
There's a counterplay to Zelda that no one talks about where if you just wait on the other side of the stage for a ridiculous amount of time away from phantom's max hitbox range, you frustrate the Zelda main into using her terrible approach options instead, and then win because she's not using phantom anymore. So yeah...lol. I actually like playing Zelda, but she always felt like the potential was there, yet nobody did anything with it. I'm glad this video exists now. Hopefully a talented game dev from Nintendo will watch it and know what to do. Absa from Rivals of Aether is a great example of Zelda done right imo.
@@johanboi6812 Np. It works against the impatient ones. Zelda still actually has pretty decent boxing options, though, so be sure you're approaching with safe aerials.
@@imbatrossthescrub2096 Luckily, I play Sonic and Fox, so as long as I use your advice, I'll likely find an opening almost all the time since they're pretty fast characters.
@@johanboi6812 Yeah, Fox especially can make Zelda's day really bad. She's got no safe aggressive landing options other than perfectly timed down air and her disadvantage makes getting hit by a single up air a nightmare. The only thing you realistically have to worry about is getting lightning kicked and dying at early percents.
@@imbatrossthescrub2096 Yeah, especially considering how light Fox is, but the fact that he's fast, has a great combo game, good kill power, and has both a projectile and a reflector makes up for it.
I used to actually main Zelda back in Sm4sh. For a handful of reasons. 1. She was bad. And I really liked being able to do something with a bad character. Or at least that was my sentiment back then. 2. I love Zelda. 3. My girlfriend also loves Zelda. As time flies, it does suck knowing that Zelda is one of the few characters in Smash that has stayed consistently bad.
I think a very big part of how they tried to balance Zelda in ultimate is often overlooked. We all seem to be forgetting that fs meter was supposed to be tournament legal.
I honestly can't see how that would ever be the case with Final Smashes like Zelda's, Peach's, Jigglypuff's, Palutena's or Bayonetta's to name a few, they'd straight up break the game no matter how they nerf them, they'd need reworks entirely, all Peach, Palutena and Puff need to do is throw someone out of the stage and press their "free stock" button, Puff and Peach at literally any % btw, Bayonetta has multiple 0 to death combos that are straight up impossible to escape during her full-screen Witch Time, many of which lead into Gomorrah at 100% for the free stock (if you didn't die from the combo alone), and Zelda is just another whole level of bs never seen before even for Final Smash standards, they should've realized sooner in the game's life that FS Meter would NEVER be a thing no matter what they did to it, if Zelda was truly held back because of this i'm gonna be so upset because it would only make sense for the first few patches of the game... Also they never really nerfed any Final Smashes to try to make it viable, so this whole point is unlikely overall, the only Final Smash change i remember was to Bayonetta, they made the knockback after the Gomorrah cutscene a joke, and even then it still can guarantee kills on every character from 0% lmao.
@@AlmondMilkLake I didn't say the final smashes were well designed or well balanced. A lot of this game isn't tbh. But they were probably a big factor in character balance, considering they are used by the game's core demographic.
@@aurora_x86 If they were such a big factor i see no valid reasons for Zelda to be delegated to low tier while Peach/Daisy are top tiers, their Final Smashes are equally OP tbh, if they get it you just lost a stock, nothing you can do about it at all. But somehow one is deserving of being good while the other doesn't?
@@AlmondMilkLake In the hands of a casual player Peach/Daisy aren't that good, neither is their FS. And, sorry to repeat myself, but this game is not very well balanced. You could make the same argument as to why already strong characters like Mythra get mechanics like foresight while Ganon gets nothing.
@@aurora_x86 That's exactly the point tho, they're horrible at balance patches, so much that i doubt they ever gave Final Smashes a second thought, my point is that it has absolutely nothing to do with Zelda being bad, they just don't know what they're doing.
I have always said that Zelda’s moves aren’t bad, but her physics are Also, I would have loved it if they took her in the direction of BOTW. I know Sakurai said that BOTW Zelda is not suited for fighting, but just look at what they did with Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity. They could’ve made Zelda into a sheikah slate style or even a bow archetype
He said that before Age of Calamity came out, so it was fair to say at the time since Breath of the Wild didn't flesh out what Zelda was actually capable of besides making a massive final smash sized explosion of light, which isn't enough to design a kit around. If Age of Calamity had come out first, then your argument would be a lot stronger. Although even then he probably wouldn't have done it since he has a habit of not redesigning veteran characters that need it like Ganondorf, Zelda, Samus, etc in order to put more emphasus on the newer characters.
I think the character could be taken a totally new direction if they based it specifically around totk Zelda. It would be interesting if they could incorporate the rewind mechanic
As a Brawl Zelda main, it's surprising to see people dunk on her moveset so much. The problem with the moveset is only the fact that it leaves her open but it's not too unusual for a character to be left open during their KO moves. The real problem with Zelda is her agility and weight, exacerbating her risky playstyle by a lot. Otherwise Din's fire would be considered OP asf because that shit carried me so hard everytime, it's an incredible punish mechanic and racks up shit tons of damage without killing off the character, that is IF you know how to use it right. There's a learning curve with Zelda but the way you make the best of her is by leveraging her moveset to counter her weaknesses. Floating in the air? Use Farore's wind to teleport to solid ground + damage opponent. Caught in combo? Use Nayru's love. Need invincibility frames? Transform. Need to escape massive attacks? Farore's wind again. There's so many creative ways to use her but she's examined from the perspective of an offensive character, when the whole point of her design was to evade and defend while finding the exact right moment to hit with one of her insanely strong KO moves. I do get that obviously people would choose a much easier character to play with who is more straightforward but I think it makes her way more rewarding to play, and I think the tier lists are honestly kinda bs because the amount of power Zelda can pack is insanely good, especially in Ultimate.
To this day the best designed iteration of Zelda imo is in SSF2 0.9b. There since her aerials were faster and sweetspots were bigger she could combo sourspot into sweetspot of all her aerials and had a very nice playstyle, making her a top 3 character in that version of the game
Thank you. Actually I would say she good in 9a as well. She had combos and kill confirms into her already powerful finishers that even with good D.I. would lead to death. I hated fighting her
Zelda Buffs Idea: A buff they could do to the reflector on neutral special, is make it so said reflector sends projectiles back to their target at increased speed and with a soft tracking enabled. That way, even though her reflector wouldn't get like a super damage increase like Kazuya's, it could be used on certain matchups, like vs Samus, to effectively track them with their own projectiles AND shoot Din's fire at the same time. To add to this, the ending lag of Nayru's Love is also reduced on SPECIFCALLY her specials. This means she can also use Nayru's as an out of shield get off my option too whilst dealing damage with both the hits of the faster Nayru's and then the first hit of Farore's Wind, where Zelda can then choose to cross-up her opponents or move away for more zoning. The ending lag of specifically a grounded version of her Up special is buffed so that she can act out of it faster, but ONLY the grounded variant. This means she can use it to cross up more effectively. The start up of her side b would also be buffed, as well as buffing the speed of Din's Fire and allowing even more control over it. Finally, Phantom Slash gains a physical hitbox that when fully formed can wall out opponents unless they jump over it (and takes a little less time to fully form). Additionally, a player who has hit a fully formed phantom will take an extra 1.25x damage from the move as a punish, and if they're hit from point blank range, instead of a single hit, the move now carries the opponent its full length away from Zelda, with small hits along the way into the final slash that sends them away. This improves all of Zelda's specials and makes her keep-away game even better. As another buff I'd give her, on the other side of the spectrum for how she plays, I would make specifically her dash grab faster, and with longer range, so that when she uses her grounded up special, she can use it to combo into a dash grab if spaced properly. On top of this, her down tilt gets its extended hitbox returned, and is 1 frame faster, lifting opponents above Zelda's head when used to combo into an up tilt which is now 2 frames faster on start up also, which finally can lead into an up air that's still the same as it was before. It also means she can combo it into Nair, which I also think should have buffed frame data to be able to perform drag downs into it and potentially finish with a phantom slash on the final drag down, that won't be fully formed, but will still smack opponents away from her. Her first jump height has been reduced, as has her jump squat even more, to allow for better nair loops Oh, giving her neutral special a 7% armour also means it can stop most jabs from stopping it also, meaning its an even better out of shield option. And having the final hitbox of the move send more diagonal upwards can lead to a nair loop at low percents/sweet spot fair, or a din's fire at higher percents to push enemies away and potentially even kill. Oh, and her sour spots on fair and bair are reduced with her sweet spots taking up more of said hitbox, to make them more consistent tools without buffing their damage output. Her fall speed has been increased also, unless coming out of an up special, and is slowed down to a slight stall if she uses side special whilst falling. Additionally, she gains a revenge hitbox on being hit from performing a Din's Fire, that hits the attacker for 1% and does a small stagger. Stopping her from getting comboed to death out of a Din's fire, even if she's punished for it. My FINAL FINAL idea, would be to give Up Special a new charged option only on the ground. This new charging ability, gives Zelda the ability to essentially stir up wind all around her, and after teleporting, the wind will follow behind her in any given direction she teleports. The wind pushes all oppoents in that direction towards zelda for a grab (reverted back to not being slower anymore) or any sort of punish. However, if she is hit during this move, it cancels it entirely and stuns zelda slightly, giving the other player a solid punish. It can also be aimed down when fully charged to create two smaller but more powerful wind boxes, that keeps Zelda on the spot, but any oppoent in its radius will be flung much further away. Finally the up angled version of this move will follow Zelda and give her a brief platform to land on once for a very brief amount of time, to give her time to start a Din's Fire from a high point and as she's falling, combo it into another Din's fire. The hitbox for the up version is the widest, and players lifted up by it will be flung above Zelda's head directly for a nasty up air punish. This move pushes/pulls foes more effectively the higher their percentage currently is! All of these can be charged in the air, but only used when she has feet planted on the ground. If you use them in the air, she will instead do a normal teleport. All of these buffs I think would keep her core kit the same, but make her a much higher tier than she currently is in Smash Ultimate. She'd be a wifi menance. And her Din's Fire buff would make her able to punish more predictable recoveries more to be able to kill off stage also, without her having to go offstage herself. Leaving the rest of her kit as is, is fine in my opinion. Zelda should have more focus on her specials than her smash attacks for sure!
If only you were on the dev team to give these godsend buffs to her. I love Zelda a lot, and I try to make her work, but it feels so sad that she was just left in the gutter while Sheik got the glory of it just for being viable and more favored (except in Brawl of course, cuz MK exists). Ultimate Zelda had the biggest potential, and so did Sm4sh Zelda, but they just didn't do anything aside from give her a new Down B.
@@jeromesol2725 agreed, a lackluster down b with just the tweaks I mentioned, could be an amazing defensive option for her, whilst also synergising with her role as a zoner, carrying enemies across the stage!
My suggestions for her as a Zelda Main across all games would be 1) give her back her smash 4 d-tilt with its ability to combo due to its upwards knockback angle 2) bring back drag down nair for better combo routes and confirms 3) speed her grab slightly. 4) give UP Smash a larger horizontal hurtbox. This would maintain her weakness as still being a slower character with higher KO power but grant her a bit more consistency and meaningful punishes. Slightly larger sweetspot or smaller sourspots would be great too but i understand how powerful they are and why they arent easier to hit. They could at least not make the sour spots negative on hit though because being punished tor landing a hit is stupid. Slightly increase the knockback and hitstun on sour spot.
been a Zelda main since Brawl lol and definitely, the major flaw with her design philosophy is that, she's mostly designed like a glass cannon, she has powerful hitboxes (namely in her aerials and specials) but is lightweight and has trouble landing. but the problem, is that her powerful hits aren't powerful enough to justify their risks, namely Lightning Kick sourspots and such. and meanwhile, her tilts and weaker attacks are just rather weak and not quite fast enough, so it lends to her often not having good enough defense once you get into her space. and while her specials help with her keep-away game, they're rather linear so she actually can be somewhat predictable (despite being the wielder of the Triforce of Wisdom lol). definitely what would help her a lot is just giving her some solid attack options rather than putting a risk-reward on everything, for example a faster and more utile fair would help immensely, and then keeping her bair Lightning Kick (bairs are inherently higher-risk, so give it higher reward) and buffing the range on her magic attacks so she can at least cover more space around her, even if it's on her weak attacks. even so, I still do enjoy playing Zelda but it just sucks to see her so underrated after all these years, and I suspect it's mainly from people who just think "oh Zelda has the same moveset so she must suck again" and then voted her bottom-two or something :/
Zelda feels like a heavyweight without the heavyweight. It's just that she has more moves that don't work in her favour compared to other heavyweights which doesn't bode well when she can't survive as long as them either Dedede's Gordo admittedly isn't the best neutral option but if the opponent isn't immediately about to attack they have to play around or respect Gordo at the very least lest Dedede punishes them heavily. Inhale's buffs help to delete Dedede's projectile weakness much better. Not perfectly but it also helps Gordo to not work against you and can even enhance it. Bowser's special kit is all useable in some way. An incredible command grab, a great damage dealer/walling tool in flame breath, a surprise kill/shieldbreaker in bowser bomb and a useful panic button in Up B. Incineroar has a slower but potentially stronger command grab and a counter that can help stuff out reckless combos/strings, projectiles or even the odd recovery. Incineroar's frame data is amazing all around too. Like this character would be top tier with just movement speed buffs alone, that's how hard Incineroar's moveset carries him. Zelda... Is really awkward. She technically has boxing options but they're not as reliable as Bowser or Ridley. Her specials can help her but aren't as versatile or devastating as Bowser or Dedede (Phantom Ledgetrapping and Up-B out of shield are good but Zelda overrelies on Phantom almost to the extent of Electric Wind God Fist on Kazuya and Up-B is a defensive option which can only extend her mediocre moveset as opposed to enhance it.) And bro, she's nothing compared to Bowser or Kazuya's presence. Their armour takes away options and their mobility quirks (auto-turn around, dash crouch, Bowser's run speed) force you to respect them or die, especially with the rage they get from actually being heavy. Poor Zelda actually can't catch a break
Her saving grace is her Phantom that basically acts as a teammate. Its windbox delays rushdown characters and can put opponents into hitstun if they try to break through it, which buys Zelda much needed time to punish and space. The one thing that dooms her the most is her disadvantage state where she cannot land nor has reliable tools to take back stage control. She's arguably one of the best characters when it comes to maintaining an advantage state, but it's never going to remain consistent in higher level play.
I do feel as if that desperate attempt to cling onto the moveset she’s had since melee is the thing that sucks. A moveset already quite bizarre for the princess given how physical based it is with just sparkles attached and gimmicky specials that just leave her fully completely vulnerable for not real sufficient reward for how hard they are to get off even now. It’s a shame that the wielder of such cool mystical magic has such an un creative,restrictive and honestly unfocused kit. I feel as if certain modded movesets I’ve seen for her at least had some unique concepts for reworks and buffs to give her that mystical tactician type of vibe from such a slower and floaty character. It really just is so glaring to see how well Peach worked out as a floaty technical character with her unorthodox by surprising affective mechanics like floating and turnips. The fact that I can’t point to really anything besides her phantom which in itself has its limitations of its own specifically with range attacks and pressure against Zelda stopping it from being nearly as a formidable obstacle to stop Zelda from being so easily punished from any initiation or unsafe moves Zelda would attempt to throw out there, which for the longest time has been a decent lot of her overall kit. Just imagine if she did have a dins fire that came back to her like the one from project m! A damaging orb for poking, pressure and combos or her phantom was able to do a lil more in some form. I know I’m jabbering on but I would’ve loved this more deal with my specials and their map control in a sense so that I can set up stuff or just simply allow myself to get off things I normally couldn’t given my more floaty and slower build. Kinda like how she does now but in a more affective, varied and definitely elegant way given she is a princess. Her specials imo should be direct distractions to defend her or even just allow her breathing room to use her tilts/aerials/smash attacks or just simply to approach with how slow she still relatively is by comparison. Instead they leave her vulnerable and she’s forced to use one after the other with no other actions being done whilst she’s using them it’s really just clunky. Gimmicky at best and trash at worst. It’s also incredibly disheartening cause they’ve shown not only have they been able to fix the transformation mechanic but they have so many more characters in the game that specialise in camping, trap setting and space control alongside independent activating moves that would give Zelda breathing room and in some ways free rain to get off these slower or less affect moves while her opponent has to deal with blocking and avoiding those specials and like I said even something as simple as having to worry about a phantom or let say a dins fire that comes back to Zelda instantly gives her some threat of potential counter hitting/pressure to stop opponents from just running down on her and punishing everything she has. Plus giving her at least some form of initiative given she can’t just easily run at you like a decent portion of other characters and she lacks the same aerial moves/overall aerial movement that the likes of Peach and Puff have had in all iterations. I just don’t think she really excels at anything in particular, especially nothing that justifies just how weak and lacking she is in a lot of more fundamental aspects let alone her kit just not really having imo a real sense of identity or clear way of usage to lets say the average/new player. Whilst also being of course quite weak and demanding for well skilled players who could get any type of value or interest you could possible grasp from her kit from a character that just has more with less limitations. That was A LOT of yapping I know but it’s well deserved for such a beloved character treated with such little love balance wise and creativity wise with her kit. They could do so much if they simply tried or cared and I mean modders like Project M have shown the way specials and even certain moves of hers could reworked to dodge around the limitations of her base character.
At this point Zelda feels like one of those characters that needs to be redesigned from the ground up, maybe not entirely but definitely needs to be unshackled from her current moveset, like a lot of old timey characters.
Leave up b, down b, all her aerials beside nair and give her a nair that is big and fast so that it fixes her neutral and disadvantage. Also, don't replace her already excellent f smash with a worse one.
If/when we get a new smash I NEEEEEED Zelda to get a completely new moveset. I love the idea of her being a mage, but we gotta freshen it up cause she has been so lackluster for so long 😭😊
NGL, Zelda's Ultimate design is probably my least favorite design of the character in any game ever. I don't know why Sakurai thought going with the A Link to the Past design for Zelda instead of the marketably more reasonable Breath of the Wild design for her was a good idea (apparently, he thought BOTW Zelda was more of a researcher than a fighter, but that's kinda ironic considering that ALTTP Zelda is even more of a pacifist canonically than her). And I honestly can't stand her voice in Ultimate compared to how it was in Melee-Smash 4. She's definitely the best-playing version of the character, but design-wise is just a complete downgrade in every way.
Maybe he just wanted a bit more variety with the Zelda game representation so it wasn't as overly focused on just 1 or 2 games like previous games + WW, a design that isn't TP because they were moving away from that after sticking with TP for 2 games in a row, and a Zelda that isn't affiliated with Sheik or the sheikah in any way to better reflect the fact they're two separate characters now, and a Zelda that wears a dress as her default outfit because that's part of her main appearance in Smash and reflects that she's not supposed to be too nimble, and ALttP may've hit all the spots
I feel like Zelda is a poorly executed version of Chizuru from King of Fighters, especially with Phantom Slash. She shouldn’t be bound by the triforme abilities as it’s clear Din’s Fire holds her back so much.
Zelda has been my main since Melee and I'm happy she's just playable in Ultimate. Project M Zelda was goated tho, especially the patch where she could use three din's fire mines at once
if they just gave her range on ftilt and fair/bair she'd be at least mid tier. her specials, smash attacks, throws, up neutral and down air are all fantastic attacks, but what makes her entire kit fall apart is her lack of midrange tools. the only slightly viable midrange tools she has are dash attack and nayru's love.
"Fun" Fact: In Smash 4's first official tier list, Zelda was at the bottom of that list. That being said, I am very displeased of how she was (and STILL IS) a low/bottom tier character for two whole decades. I honestly feel like the development team that balances out characters flat out hate Zelda so much, Gannondorf is in the same boat too, but at least he was viable in Melee.
@@thepooroldsoul8179 That is because that tier list came out right before patch 1.1.5, which provided Zelda a large amount of buffs to her combo game. Vanilla SSB4 Zelda was terrible, nerfed from her Brawl iteration, but post 1.1.5 Zelda is at the very least no longer a worst character in the game contender.
@@TheTrixster690 She is buffed overall by the end of the game after patches, but prior to patches, she was even worse than her past iterations due to most of her tools getting toned down for whatever reason.
My big problem with smash ultimate Zelda is she may have been moved up on the tier list (not by much), but she moved significantly down on the sick list, and it ruined the reputation of the character. Before smash ultimate, if you mained Zelda, people thought "huh that's interesting, cool", but now because of how obnoxious she is, if you main Zelda, people will go "ew, she's so lame". Also IMO the design change was a huge nerf. I don't care if people were tired of it, TP Zelda is such a good design, and I wish it was still an option as opposed to a shitty skin.
Nice to see another fan of her Brawl/Smash 4 design. People kept saying she was boring and ugly because of her design, when the real problem was her stiff and awkward animations. I'm glad they gave her better ones in Ultimate, but it kind of saddens me that they only did it by changing her design.
I remember quite liking Zelda in Sm4sh with her down throw up air 50-50 and if you're able to read the opponent's DI you can follow the first hit of Up B into the second hit and potentially get a stock at certain percentages. However, compared to Zelda in Smash Flash 2 that's boring, back in 0.9B she actually was the best character in the game, she fast, side b didn't put you into free fall and could be used as a bit of a horizontal recovery tool due to it, but most importantly her up air, f-air and b-air were all very strong the weak hits of the side aerials could be used in combos and the strong hits of all of them could kill at low perecentages. She obviously got nerfed, but that version of her was my favorite Smash character ever. Also I liked what they did with Sheik in Beta onwards, they changed her side b from the chain to Bouncing Fish while still keeping the transformation down b.
I'm practicing Zelda for my first smash local tournament, I can't believe how much this lore is improving my mental about her. Even though she's weak she's insanely hype to play. You can't get bored with how many options you have and how satisfying it is to pick and create new combos each time you pick her up. But yes this explains why I always "picked "Zelda yet remember playing sheik and the "just wait till I transform" 😂
The fact that Zelda's been my main since Melee and she's the only character I manage to be consistently good with her being my most difficult character to defeat, despite all my other mains being ranked way better competitively... I guess people just don't expect to see her so don't know how to approach her as well as they do higher ranked characters.
It feels like they were for some reason afraid of making her too strong so they hold back a lot with her buffs and then threw all this precaution out of the window once they moved to newer characters. And they don't seem to realize how fatal lacking speed can be. Then they give super fast characters great recoveries and super strong moves but still refuse to give Zelda some decent frame data, keep her vulnerable but still won't make her conciderably more powerful than other heavy hitters. I think good buffs for her would be to make all her basic attacks faster and easier to hit with, make her fair and nair faster and increase the knockback of her sourspot so that the opponent gets at least off her. A rigid knockback growth on that move would result in its sweatspot still being worth to hit while also keeping the move from being a high commitment attack, so that you can use it like aerials are meant to be used. This way, the sourspot cannot kill but the move becomes generally safer and easier to use but you still have to use the sweatspot to get an early kill. And don't nerf the sweatspot! Give her nair back its dragging property to enhance her combo game. Also make it range larger. Make her jab less lagy. Make Din's Fire much faster. It is ridiculous how good Snake's side B is or how other characters have massive projectiles but they won't give this move basic speed or some decent knockback. It is almost useless against grounded opponents because of how easy it is to deal with on ground. As it is now, it only works for edge guarding. Give her more ground speed and more air speed.
As a Zelda main.. I already feel bad for her, as she looks really strong to me.. But that won't stop me from maining Zelda. She's my one and only character in Smash. I will never give up! :)
I've always loved and used Zelda as my main character, I've never really been into Sheik. I thought Sheik was faster yes but lower damage. I've only ever played Melee and Brawl to death, no others. I was absolutely shook to see that she is ranked so low, I thought she was amazing with high power moves, and her side kick was my favourite move ever.
Being both slow AND lightweight is just a formula for a terrible character no matter how strong your other moves are if you don't have amazing zoning and keepaway tools and I think that's where Zelda's moveset is fundamentally flawed, even in Ultimate. I main her because I think she can be very tactical, but her moves have tons of wasted potential. She would benefit so much if they took a page out of Snake's moveset and let Zelda set up beyond just phantom, which is still too slow and predictable IMO. Viable slow but light characters like Puff and Peach have other unique movement properties that aren't about ground speed. Minmin has incredible keep away tools. All three have done form of disjoint. For Zelda it should be teleportation. If Phantom and Din's fire could be left out and "detonated" at will, if Nayru's Love was even better at pushing opponents away, and if up B was a better escape tool, you'd have an amazing character, basically one that's all about stage control and snowballing if left to her own devices. The closest she got to this was in Project M when she had 3 Din's and I was really sad that devs got cold feet in the end, took it away and didn't completely lean into the archetype. She's much better overall in PM obviously but it's no coincidence that with just one Din's and no phantom, she's still bottom tier. Having that much stage control and keepaway was pretty radical at the time, but now you have Steve and Min Min, so not letting a slower, lighter character have something similar I think is criminal. Combining the movesets of Ultimate and Project M would bring her closer to this.
I appreciate what you were going for with this video, but I find that you do not give Brawl and Sm4sh enough credit. Brawl actually made many of her moves genuinely intimidating and Sm4sh was notable era in which actual work went into making zelda function as a genuine character. She had a notably decent grab-game, her up-special introduced one of my favorite combos to date in the elevator, her up-special snapped to ledge (FINALLY) and so many other technical factors I want to make a video on to this very day. Compare that to Smash ultimate that took many of those tools away and implemented what felt way more like bandaid solutions to many of her problems and I will adamantly argue that the sm4sh incarnation is a better designed character and while I appreciate your perspective on this topic, I feel your research into particularly her sm4sh iteration was excessively weak.
I disagree. Sure they added nice things to Zelda in each game, but I think each smash game it really wasn't enough to get her out of being a "bad character". Theres something off with her actual character archtype that keeps her from getting any better. And too be honest a lot of the older versions of Zelda were not good at all (Brawl and Smash 4 especially) you can't argue that they were some of the worst characters in those two games, because literally she just is. People say all the time she "underrated" but she literally never moves anywhere on any tier list, and no one has made any work compititvely with the character (no disrespect its just the sad truth). I think people have a strong emotional connection to Zelda's character, but that just doesn't translate to a viable character, no matter how you fight it. She still bottom tier
@@bobbob7885 She is bad in every smash game, yes. There is no denying that, but I am looking at it from a design perspective because Sm4sh actually began to hone in on giving her a functioning kit with moves that actually begun to synergize with one another. Smash ultimate rather than build on what began to shape her in sm4sh, kinda half-assed the progress made by changing some of her kit, but keeping the same macro-structure and giving her seemingly random buffs without much rhyme or reason behind them.
@@TJ-Henry-Yoshi Fair points, but I still gotta disagree. If anything the better version of Zelda was the smash ultimate version. The Smash 4 version of Phantom was kinda weak, and lackluster. But in Smash Ultimate they would buff those aspects of her kit. I don't think its integral to give Smash 4 Zelda that much credit, because its one of the worst versions of the character of all time. Like sure there is posititves there, but they didn't balance the SLEW of weaknesses that character had. like HC said, "how is Zelda going to beat cloud or bayo" she just isn't chopped up to be good in that meta
My hot take with Sm4sh Zelda is that Rage was the final coffin to her viability. It completely ruined Dthrow Uair, which was her only viable kill confirm (& Uthrow Uair on Fast fallers). She would be bottom 5 instead of bottom 2 if Rage was axed LMAO.
@@bacc2pracc154 I firmly believe Zelda was a better character than dedede, Ganon and Little Mac due to some of the advanced tech in her kit that those other characters firmly lacked. It required a higher level of execution, but wave bounces, teleport cancels, the elevator combo, ledge-trumps, and some other smaller movement tech firmly demonstrated a high potential. And no, the finger bang was _not_ her only kill confirm. dragdown Nair->Up-special was a true combo, d-tilt->f-air, while precise could also work quite often and of course, her backthrow litrerally just kills
Agree with everything except her oos in ultimate. Up b frame 6 killing as low as 60 and hits both sides, bair and fair frame 9 oos and kill earlier than any other Ariel in the game (except falcons knee is more powerful than fair), up smash is frame 9 and is as powerful as ikes, nair is frame 9, and nayrus gives frame 7 invincibility when short hopped oos. Aside from mobility too be significantly better she’d just need a super safe ariel and a safe tilt. Im a Zelda main and one thing I’ve noticed is that Zelda is disproportionately harder to play when people get better because she relies on players making mistakes and landing safe/misspaced moves
Her oos is incredibly strong in proportion to its speed but its not consistent. She can only punish misspaced attacks with her oos if the opponent lands really close to her, and if she misses them herself she can get punished hard. LK and UpB out of shield are perfect examples of that. This means that unfortunately she can still get pressured in shield. Contrast that with bowsers vastly superior upB out of shield...
I don’t know what to tell ya. I’ve main’d Zelda since Brawl, and I’ve decimated as her! Her A moves were punishing with a huge hit box, and her air kick was a solid KO. The biggest nerf was making Farore’s Wind unpredictable as far as where you teleport.
the zelda in ultimate's HDR mod is perfect. i'm an absolute menace to my friends playing her xD she flows so perfectly. you can actually just play her as a rushdown character if you really want to (though she's still better as a trap character like in PM). i also think that the case for a lot of smash ultimate characters is that it is the players who dictate the tier list. mk leo has even shown in the past (with ult and sm4sh) how far a character can climb just by him using them. i have no doubt that zelda would also shoot up at least a couple of tiers if someone who really had a knack for the game itself picked her up. ultimate has better balance across the cast than any other smash game, which is crazy to think with how many characters it has. there are obviously some really cracked characters like steve and aegis, which is why they are top teir, but everyone in mid and low (not bottom) tier i think has a lot of potential for growth if they're just picked up by the right person.
I was one of the few people who year one of ultimate having mained zelda in 4 was like zelda's still kind of bad. Despite receiving a lot of buff from 4, she also receive a lot of nerfs. I feel her concept just doesn't work. She is a trapper doubling as a glass heavyweight precision brawler. She is tall, short ranged, slow, floaty, light, inconsistent, and laggy. In return, she is stronger than average, has long lasting hit boxes, and has a great ledgetrapping tool. Half of her moves straight up don't work or have completely needless drawbacks. She straight up struggles with many archetypes due to her design. She struggles to get rush down off of her due to her inability to box with her only get off me being effectively a counter with how committal it is. She struggles with hit and run with no way to effectively chase or cover space with large hitboxes. She gets out zoned by zoners having poor projectiles for the purpose of trading projectiles and her anti zoning tool is a major commitment. She struggles with swords due to her lack of range and her inability to close gaps.
I'm over here mainly using Zelda and narus love can throw back projectiles and can damage nearby enemies I love venture teleport factor because she is zext to impossible to keep of the map
Something to note is that Zelda in Melee and Brawl were considered much stronger in the earlier years of those games, the former of which because she was attached to Sheik for the most part, and the latter of which because her moveset is heavily buffed in comparison to her Melee self. Of course, both would eventually be dropped to the bottom tiers, (in Melee) once players discovered how weak her moveset and attributes are, and (in Brawl) once players discovered her unaddressed weaknesses and how poorly she translated to Brawl's engine. SSB4 Zelda did not have the luxury of early meta optimism: she was seen as bottom tier from the very start of the game. As a matter of fact, she was nerfed in comparison to her Brawl self, and thus was in an absolute miserable state for a long time in the game, even being ranked as the worst character in the first official tier list (patch 1.1.3). The slew of buffs she got in patch 1.1.5 helped her out quite a bit, thus she is considered to be a notable step-up in comparison to her previous iterations, but she still a bottom tier character regardless.
@@TheTrixster690 That was theoretically an idea that the Brawl playerbase put into mind; indeed the Zelda/Sheik dynamic has a far better place in Brawl due to Sheik's poor kill power that Zelda can complement with, which is what they were going for in Melee but failed miserably in doing so. Unfortunately, it still didn't turn out that well in practice because Brawl's transformation moves takes way too long to execute due to Brawl's loading times, meaning that there is little ways the two can actually safely switch. Also doesn't help that Zelda still sucks, so in the end, pretty much every Sheik player still plays her solo.
I had the most fun with Smash 4 Zelda. Her combo game with jab, up tilt, down tilt, nair and down throw was extremly good and fun to use. You really didn't want to get grabbed by her. While ultimate Zelda is better she's also way more dull. None of her previous combos really work anymore and she resolves around spaming knight which I don't find fun.
Bro i feel like Sakurai has beef with zelda for some reason. They made Pyra and Mythra perfectly but here Sheik and Zelda are with zelda being terrible and sheik being amazing. As a Zelda main i feel heartbroken by this. They did her better in smash ultimate. But she could still be better. Especially cuz of the fact that shes a GODDESS or smth yet here we have Bob the builder (steve) just a normal guy who can build really fast somehow being better than zelda... the amount of times i wanted to give Sakurai a call when i play with zelda is a bit crazy even tho i main her. Shes still alright tho you just need to learn how to master her.
Melee zelda having a frame 5 aerial that kills spacies at 80-100 for an extremely easy sweat spot is something I don't think people talk enough Also from some reason Zelda feels like REALLY good into yoshi
Melee Zelda is underrated. Still garbo but below Ness & Pichu? Most of her floaty MUs aren't too bad (except Puff, who can hold down & force Zelda to make risky plays or air camp the entire time). Can even fight Peach on YS/FoD & my hot take is Zelda may even win on the former.
@@bacc2pracc154the problem is outside of fair and bair, her other moves are pretty garbage. Down smash and dash attack are good too, and her grab is decent, but almost everything else is absolute dookie, ESPECIALLY her multi hits.
in ultimate, the phantom setup are great and very hype on high level but she rly need to get her basic attack frame data reviewed, more knockback on soursport, and maybe a buff on din's fire. Speed or atleast a weight more bonded with her slowliness
I ended up maining zelda and my success rate with her compared to everyone else in extremely high. She has my 2nd highest gsp and jigglypuff has first… but I do manage to get pure luck every now and then
Can’t win with Zelda if you don’t have a plan. You can’t play her reactively, your foresight has gotta be 20/20 for each character you fight. Ven proved she’s viable. You just gotta practice, be patient, and know your opponent. Experienced Zeldas are filthy animals and they will make you cry
He grab is melee is so bad, even if the throws are good. Y'all know that her standing grab is like 5 frames slower than any other typical "use-your-hands" grabs? 7 vs 12 iirc
I'll be honest, I never paid much attention to Zelda in Melee. Brawl was where I dipped my toes in the water when it came to her and Smash 4 a little more. But Ultimate was where I became a bona fide Zelda main (thanks in huge part to her design, really; Link Between Worlds is one of my favorite games). She might not be the BEST character, but she's fun to me!
Zelda is only low tier because people don't know how to play her, however it is VERY true she was kinda doomed from the start with how they mismanaged her move set, especially with Sheik.
Zelda feels REALLY GOOD to play when you actually have some room for setups. Unfortunately, Rushdown Fighters with any form of Relect just DESTROY her gameplan.
I pocket Zelda, but I'm admittedly terrible at this game. While I can see all of her downfalls, I'll say this though: I _never_ liked how she played until Ultimate. Yes, she's still far from "good" competitively, but what very few upgrades she did get were _felt._ It ultimately didn't amount to much, but...hey, it's something.
Ultimate zelda is currently the best zelda by a small margin. As of February ultimate zelda is in the 9th percentile compared to the 2nd percentile in smash 4, 3rd percentile in brawl, and 8th percentile in melee. Still bizarre that zelda still received a bunch of nerfs from smash 4 because she was doing so well before. F-tilt got slower, thinner, and had its hitbox priority changed to be a true tipper. Down tilt lost its combo potential due to a knockback angle change. N-air lost its auto link hit boxes making it significantly less consistent and no longer able to do drag downs. My favorite confirm in smash 4 was nair up b which doesn't work well in ultimate.
I main Zelda in Ultimate and she feels most natural to play. I, unintentionally, usually gravitate towards low tiers and Zelda is perfect for how I like to play. Knowing how badly she got shafted makes me more proud to play her and want to stay with her even more, as well as, main her in other games. She deserved better
Its really heartbreaking as a Zelda main. Sakurai just straight up hates her for no reason, its like when he first saw her, he was like "you know what, i hate you, i'm making you the worst character in the game" and then made her the worst. And then Brawl, he made her even worse. She never gets enough love from Nintendo and everyone. If Nintendo doesn't fix her and make her a better character, then i want the modders to fix her just like how people fixed Sonics movesets with less spindashes. Sadly, people would just remove Zelda like in that Melee mod where she was replaced with Sheik. Or her being excluded like in Crusade and Smash Remix. It also makes me sad how Zelda suffered more than anything and people more bad for Ganon and Mac. If i really want her to be the best, i would want her movesets to be based on either Echoes of Wisdom or Hyrule Warriors. If Roll got fixed in Tatsunoko vs Capcom, then Zelda should atleast be fixed and deserves what she needs. If anyone has some new movesets ideas for her, let me know in the replies. Do Better Nintendo
I honestly didn't know Zelda was bottom tier until *WAY* later after I started maining her. Maybe it's because I've always liked using female characters and I've always loved princesses (I also main Peach btw) but I still main Zelda, she's pretty awesome IMO.
Hi, my name is Raykushi and I was, at the time I was active, one of the top Zelda players in the world for Ultimate. Something I appreciated about the video was explaining how the limitations Zelda had in previous games that was designed with Shiek in mind still persisted even after they ended up splitting permanently. I also think your comments about her limitations from Melee to Smash 4 are accurate. That being said, I think the analysis on Zelda's Ultimate variation was a bit lacking in comparison and the conclusion drawn is, in my view, inaccurate. I may be in the minority on this, but Zelda's reputation as still "bad" in Ultimate is due to a few factors. 1) Her moveset is still mostly the same. So because Ultimate Zelda's kit carried over from iterations of Zelda that were bottom tier, people associate that moveset with being bottom tier even when the character has been buffed enough for that to no longer be the case. 2) Zelda's reputation has been severely compromised by WiFi. Since WiFi Zeldas only resort to cheesy strategies and special spam, people falsely believe that that's the only or main way that Zelda can be played. 3) Because WiFi Zelda is degenerate due to connectivity issues, the character attracts many low level players due to the perceived ease of use, which only makes Zelda's results suffer more when the character is used offline. 4) Simply put, the people who play Zelda, for the most part, are really bad at the game. Those who are good, like Ven, don't even really take advantage of the elements that make Ultimate Zelda really good. Ven, while a great player, plays Zelda like it's Smash 4 Zelda in many instances. When it comes to your specific comments made, there were a few things that were incorrect. I'm not actually sure if her Down Tilt is shorter, it never felt like it - but overall the move is much better. In 4, it was too laggy to follow up into anything other than a 50/50 upair at 110%+, and was much laggier. Ultimate's comes out much faster, has way less endless, and combos into Dash Attack or Fair because of the changed knockback angle. Zelda's grab is slow, this is true, but it actually has decent range - more importantly the pivot grab range is bloody massive, and her throws more than make up for that - 2 kill throws and 2 combo throws. More importantly, and I cannot stress this enough, you are wrong about her Out of Shield options. You'd actually be hard pressed to find 5 characters with better OoS options than she does. She has 2 frame 6 OoS kill moves on either side of her, a generous nair which can hit opponents even when they cross up the shield, a frame 6 upB that kills or can just be used to retreat, and of course, though of grab is slow, the fact that her grab is so dangerous makes it an option worth worrying about. Typically if you so much as tickle a competent Zelda's Shield you're going to get counter attacked. With regards to people thinking Zelda is a mid tier - this is actually a sentiment still carried to this day. The page that you're using is a strictly results based tier list, and if you read what I wrote about Zelda players just being kinda bad, you'll understand why she's so low. On that particular chart, if the top 10 players all started using Zelda, you'd see her position increase substantially for instance - that obviously wouldn't make the character magically better. While results based charts are a decent resource, they often don't tell the full story of a characters viability (for instance, without Armada in Melee, Peach would be considered a much worse character if we used only this resource), and even with Zelda's negative reputation competitively, most top players tend to put Zelda's in mid tier, around the 15-20th worst in the game. My perspective on her viability is that she's on the cusp of being a high tier, though many people disagree for the reasons I stated above - even other Zelda mains are much more cynical about her moveset. Here's how I see it - outside of very specific matchups, Zelda's Phantom now gives her almost exclusive control over the pace of the game. In Smash 4 and prior, her frame data was horrendous, and she was slow. She had no means to approach her opponent, which was a shame because her combos even in Smash 4 were excellent. Ultimate Zelda changed this completely - if Zelda is given the leeway to charge her Phantom, her approach immediately becomes extremely dangerous. It forces opponents to either contend with a Phantom-backed approach, give up stage control, or try to approach Zelda proactively (which is what she wants). She went from having a horrible neutral to having one of the best neutrals with that single change. It's not as though Phantom is a laggy option either - for perspective, Phantom takes 72 frames to fully charge, Diddy's Banana pull is 60 frames. Now also imagine if Diddy could throw the banana early at any point during the animation. So we're talking about a character with extremely fast boxing tools (dtilt, jab, uptilt), extended combos, a reflector, a combo breaker, good camping tools, 2 combo throws, 2 kill throws (her backthrow being one of the strongest in the game), the strongest Bair, the strongest upair, almost the strongest fair (darn you falcon), the 2nd strongest ftilt, huge disjoint, amazing edgeguard and ledge trap power, an amazing and damn near un-interceptable recovery, one of the strongest neutrals in the entire game, and one of the most dangerous shields in the cast full stop - and people think this character is bad: Mostly due to a combination of misinformation about the character that persists from her previous smash iterations, a moveset and Wifi connectivity that attracts a low skill player base, propaganda spread that popularizes incorrect stats about the character (for instance, before ZeRo was banned, he made a tier list in which he stated Zelda has no OoS when she plenty, but his popularity at the time superseded any corrections to the contrary so a lot of people just falsely think she has no OoS options. The same thing happened with Bowser Jr, who he claimed had no combo throw when he does.), and a compromised reputation as being a "gimmick wifi character". Sorry for the text wall I get very passionate about this. Zelda as a character is an interesting case study.
hey, I’ve started playing ssbu not a long time ago and I immediately choose Zelda as a main, I really want to play her in a type of really agressive style but it seems like the only way to play her in online is as you say by spamming, do you think I should just switch to another character? or should I keep trying to play her the way I want even if it’s really hard in online?
Hey there friend. The issue with wifi is that the connectivity and input delay is so bad that Zelda is often rewarded for playing degenerately, and it's much more difficult to actually play Zelda in the way I believe she would be realistically used in an offline environment, because a lot of her combos have tight windows and her gameplay style overall is very reactionary. Don't let me tell you who to play and not play, if you enjoy her you should play her, just don't expect to get away with certain things offline that you would online, and also, you wouldn't be getting the kind of practice Zelda needs for offline play when you play her online. @@0001absent
Camping is just the easy way to win. There's nothing wrong with being aggressive, but you're going to want learn how to not be reckless. Trust me, Once you learn her tools and where to use them, it's a ton of fun. I think she's best with a mix of the two. The only way you will get better is to have fun!
Her oos options are relatively fast and powerful but inconsistent and can get her killed. A really talented zelda player can take her far, ie Naskino, but there are times when she just explodes when in disadvantage or at ledge. She also in theory controls the pace of the game, but knight timings are something that can be studied and exploited due to its long startup, and with her lack of midrange options she can just get baited and punished. And her boxing options. They are decent but by no means the best by a long shot. And her neutral being one of the strongest by charging phantom knight... what? Phantom isnt even a good neutral tool in most matches imo. Its a big risk in neutral for her to charge it a lot of the time. Ive seen your gameplay and your zelda guide but a lot in your comment feels like early zelda metagame optimism and doesnt reflect her in the context of the rest of the cast now.
My sister always mained Zelda in melee and brawl she loved switching between them but hated when they made them separate... Now she mainly mains sheik since he kills easier. She mainly mains them to counter my Bayonetta now
i love watching ur content while eating lunch, great video. on topic of zelda, it always felt like they didn’t really know what to do with her in past games.
I think that Sheik just isnt meant to be a seperate fighter in later entries. In the newer games, she like cant kill. Hence pyra and mythra, some of the best characters in the game. You first play mythra to get the damage, the switch to pyra to finish em off.
@@TheTrixster690EXACTLY. Atleast with other characters like joker who have a similar issue, his smash attacks can still kill. And his knockback also not that good. But when he gets arsene then you say “heh heh. *GOD MODE ACTIVATED*” With Sheik, she has nothing. No kill confirms, one of the lightest characters in the game, high falling speed and gravity makes her prone to combos and early kos as well. Also, let this sink in. 3 Sheik fairs do the same amount of damage as a SINGLE pichu thunderjolt. HOW IS THIS CHARACTER 31?! LET ALONE A HIGHER RANK
Nice video. Pretty sure up b started killing in s4. She is definitely better in every game. Melee vs Brawl is debatable. Nair, dtilt, , and jab was better in s4 than in ult. all 3 moves still usable as they were in s4, but harder for various reasons. The drift buff on her up b in Ult is a great change alongside her aerial side b changes. s4 phantom had it's uses.
She's good, maybe not one of the "best characters". But every character is viable in P+ so you can play whoever you want type of deal, the cast is balanced really tight-nit. She maybe has some of the same flaws as previous versions of Zelda like being light, and annoying sour spots. One of the things I liked about P+ Zelda is they made her tilts/smash attacks REALLY fast, and hard hitting. So if an oppenant is trying to pressure Zelda up close, she can reverse them, with her strong tilts/smash attacks and combo off it. It makes Zelda have a chance in those more aggressive matchups against rushdown characters imo. She's fun to play in P+, she is one of my pocket characters.
The main issue with Zelda are the stuff around her kit, rather than the kit itself. Sure there are things about the kit that could use work, like Dins, f and d tilt or her non F smash smash attacks. But for me if theycwant to make Zelda slow she needs to be slow in one way. If she's slow on ground she should be more mobile in the air, since being fast on ground wouldn't make sense. phantom needs to stay since Ultimate is the only game where ot is fleged out and the main issue is why she has to use it, not because the move itself is bad. There are some tweaks i would make to some moves, like giving her light bow with stun arrows, since she is portrayed as having connection to the goddess it makes sense she would have moved that corelate them.
this begs the question tho, since we all know ultimate zelda is the best zelda, which zelda is the worst zelda not counting sheik ? (i’m well aware that melee zelda is bottom 3 and not bottom 2, but then again shes competing melee kirby + melee bowser which are barely even functional)
@@TheTrixster690 Fair, Bair, and DSmash are her 3 good attacks. Her tilts are laggy, don't combo, and have no range, dash attack is tied to Zelda's awful speed, the throws are locked behind an awful grab.
i know a group of like four people in my school that insist that zelda is top tier because none of them know how to approach
Lol that's me with duck hunt
I mean, in a Final Smash Meter legal meta, Zelda probably is top tier
@@Mr__JackI still remember the early tournaments that featured the meter being super bad because Zelda effectively had a win button she could only press once her opponent was above a very generous percent that was very easy for her to achieve, while the opponent very much kept fighting to keep that percent from ever reaching the low margin to avoid the instant kill, while trying to drain meter from Zelda by KOing her, which wasn't easy because people weren't used to fighting Ultimate Zelda as they're now
While she had the normal percent thing of Smash, her opponent actually had a very small HP bar disguised as a percent, and once her opponent is at 33-60%, its up to her to decide if they continue fighting or get instantly sent to the shadow realm, as she can trigger her FS from everywhere, and it will suck the opponent through most obstructions like walls, floors, and ceilings, and its suction range is m a s s i v e, so there's no escape on any of the legal stages
@@michaelplaysbass8311oh fck… ur right, I don’t know what to expect w duck hunt. That’s one of the characters I truly rarely don’t play against in elite smash with
Wifi Zelda with Final smash on is probably top tier 😂
Although I believe that Zelda is criminally underrated, it is sad to see that she's consistently at the bottom of tier lists in every game..
Yeahh. I haven't played too much smash ultimate but in the days of smash 4 when I would bring my 3ds to school and play other people I was a pretty good zelda. Like her combo game was insane. My biggest complaints were that her up special was kinda clunky and her side special puts her I to free fall. The amount of time I sd'd cuz I accidentally triggered din's fire is insane. The reason why I liked her was cuz she had a fast reflect move to deal with the people that like to rely on projectile spam and her moves were so rewarding to land
same with Ganon too(at least until recent melee tier lists,who put him at lower mid tier.) but still,he has been considered ass for almost over 17 years now lol
Just like Kirby.
@@TopTierGamerMan wasn't kirby like top 3 in smash 64,depated top 2? lol
@@Dhampire1976 in smash 64. The game where only Kirby and pika could actually recover.
i remember randomly reading Zelda’s smash wiki pages and ult’s page said “she is ranked 75th out of 82, her best placement in the series” and I was just like
😐
Her best placement is actually Brawl. She's with Sheik in like the 25th spot or something like that.
calling her brawl model bad is so criminal
it's literally aesthetically appealing i dont like ultimate Zelda's model
@@jorgiessss both models are good but someone needs to put some respect on TP Zelda's design !
The only model I don't like is ssbm Zelda because of her dookie hair.
Nah FR- her Brawl model was honestly her best model, WiiU coming in close second, both versions also looked like actual fierce and clever princesses rather then a child cosplaying a princess- like, her ultimate model looks really pretty but it’s giving fairy tail princess vibes… which doesn’t really fit the Zelda we see in most LoZ games
That’d be like saying if they made a cartoony looking zelda game and people said it was ugly because it was different.
Wait…
Fun Fact: the only time Zelda was at least High Tier was the very first Melee Tier list, which ranked her at 6-8 with Samus and Luigi
I think her core being designed around Melee Zelda is a huge deal. Why could they not give her new moves that make sense for her? Many of her attacks are these slow stubby melee attacks in the face of all the magic she possesses, and the actual magic she uses is also just too lopsided to effectively use with the rest of her kit. Phantom didn't really ever fix this, it just gave her a win condition.
It doesn't help that the Zelda they now have isn't the same Stoic Woman that the previous Zeldas were, meaning her having more energetic and less reserved attacks makes character sense as well.
Zelda needs to be redesigned to have way more light-based attacks. The times we actually see her fight in the Zelda games, she's using light based energy. This has the potential to make her a much faster and better zoning character. Why not give her light arrows for starters? She knows how to wield a bow. Nintendo could do her some favors by making her a playable character in the next Zelda game to inspire new moves. They could maybe even go the Xena route and make her physically stronger.
Ganondorf similarly needs to be using WAY more dark magic in his moveset. Legacy xp actually experimented with this, and while it's ridiculous, it's pretty innovate.
The reason they try to avoid adding or removing moves as much as possible is because they fear doing that will alienate the people who play those characters. I don't necessarily agree with that logic even though I do understand where they're coming from but there you go.
Not to mention a lot of them feel strangely similar to Peaches despite being VERY different characters. Peach has so much air control to allow her to be a lot more in your face/physical alongside her float and turnips.
Zelda has none of this so why would they for any reason base her relative weight, floatiness, speed and having short ranged physical moves like Peach without any mechanics in place to make up for it (air based or grounded).
To me Zelda should feel or be more similar to kinda how some trap setters like Isabelle should be mechanics wise (camping “deal with my bullshit”), yet for base reference for how her moves should look or function I would say she should feel a lot like Palutena.
@@nahor88
Many people like her concept. Lightning kick is iconic. Just some moves should be replaced and some moves seriously buffed. Her main issue is her ending lag on everything that is completly uncalled for.
As a Smash Ultimate Zelda main, I sadly already knew all of this, but I do like the little details you added. At the end of the day, she’s way too reliant on risk and making hard reads, for what amounts to less reward compared to other characters. On the other hand, getting a cheeky teleport kill or playing mind games to squeeze out a win are very satisfying.
I've been a Zelda main since Melee. I don't play competitively, I just like her moveset and character concept.
I use a combination of teliporting' din's fire alot and naru's love and an acasional grab at close range. I finde that a good combination.
There's a counterplay to Zelda that no one talks about where if you just wait on the other side of the stage for a ridiculous amount of time away from phantom's max hitbox range, you frustrate the Zelda main into using her terrible approach options instead, and then win because she's not using phantom anymore. So yeah...lol. I actually like playing Zelda, but she always felt like the potential was there, yet nobody did anything with it. I'm glad this video exists now. Hopefully a talented game dev from Nintendo will watch it and know what to do. Absa from Rivals of Aether is a great example of Zelda done right imo.
I've fought against many Zelda's before, so thanks for the info.
@@johanboi6812 Np. It works against the impatient ones. Zelda still actually has pretty decent boxing options, though, so be sure you're approaching with safe aerials.
@@imbatrossthescrub2096 Luckily, I play Sonic and Fox, so as long as I use your advice, I'll likely find an opening almost all the time since they're pretty fast characters.
@@johanboi6812 Yeah, Fox especially can make Zelda's day really bad. She's got no safe aggressive landing options other than perfectly timed down air and her disadvantage makes getting hit by a single up air a nightmare. The only thing you realistically have to worry about is getting lightning kicked and dying at early percents.
@@imbatrossthescrub2096 Yeah, especially considering how light Fox is, but the fact that he's fast, has a great combo game, good kill power, and has both a projectile and a reflector makes up for it.
I was just browsing through a bunch of Smash videos I was suggested for the night and got totally jumpscared from seeing my old vid @10:42 lmao
I am not sure making Pyra and Mythra broken was the answer to "figuring out how to balance the archetype"
True
@@TDG386 no, aegis is still busted. But Steve is a whole new level of bullshit
I used to actually main Zelda back in Sm4sh. For a handful of reasons.
1. She was bad. And I really liked being able to do something with a bad character. Or at least that was my sentiment back then.
2. I love Zelda.
3. My girlfriend also loves Zelda.
As time flies, it does suck knowing that Zelda is one of the few characters in Smash that has stayed consistently bad.
Going against a top seed Fox in melee pools is nothing compared an Ultimate Zelda on WiFi matchmaking
I think a very big part of how they tried to balance Zelda in ultimate is often overlooked. We all seem to be forgetting that fs meter was supposed to be tournament legal.
I honestly can't see how that would ever be the case with Final Smashes like Zelda's, Peach's, Jigglypuff's, Palutena's or Bayonetta's to name a few, they'd straight up break the game no matter how they nerf them, they'd need reworks entirely, all Peach, Palutena and Puff need to do is throw someone out of the stage and press their "free stock" button, Puff and Peach at literally any % btw, Bayonetta has multiple 0 to death combos that are straight up impossible to escape during her full-screen Witch Time, many of which lead into Gomorrah at 100% for the free stock (if you didn't die from the combo alone), and Zelda is just another whole level of bs never seen before even for Final Smash standards, they should've realized sooner in the game's life that FS Meter would NEVER be a thing no matter what they did to it, if Zelda was truly held back because of this i'm gonna be so upset because it would only make sense for the first few patches of the game...
Also they never really nerfed any Final Smashes to try to make it viable, so this whole point is unlikely overall, the only Final Smash change i remember was to Bayonetta, they made the knockback after the Gomorrah cutscene a joke, and even then it still can guarantee kills on every character from 0% lmao.
@@AlmondMilkLake I didn't say the final smashes were well designed or well balanced. A lot of this game isn't tbh. But they were probably a big factor in character balance, considering they are used by the game's core demographic.
@@aurora_x86 If they were such a big factor i see no valid reasons for Zelda to be delegated to low tier while Peach/Daisy are top tiers, their Final Smashes are equally OP tbh, if they get it you just lost a stock, nothing you can do about it at all. But somehow one is deserving of being good while the other doesn't?
@@AlmondMilkLake In the hands of a casual player Peach/Daisy aren't that good, neither is their FS. And, sorry to repeat myself, but this game is not very well balanced. You could make the same argument as to why already strong characters like Mythra get mechanics like foresight while Ganon gets nothing.
@@aurora_x86 That's exactly the point tho, they're horrible at balance patches, so much that i doubt they ever gave Final Smashes a second thought, my point is that it has absolutely nothing to do with Zelda being bad, they just don't know what they're doing.
I have always said that Zelda’s moves aren’t bad, but her physics are
Also, I would have loved it if they took her in the direction of BOTW. I know Sakurai said that BOTW Zelda is not suited for fighting, but just look at what they did with Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity. They could’ve made Zelda into a sheikah slate style or even a bow archetype
He said that before Age of Calamity came out, so it was fair to say at the time since Breath of the Wild didn't flesh out what Zelda was actually capable of besides making a massive final smash sized explosion of light, which isn't enough to design a kit around.
If Age of Calamity had come out first, then your argument would be a lot stronger. Although even then he probably wouldn't have done it since he has a habit of not redesigning veteran characters that need it like Ganondorf, Zelda, Samus, etc in order to put more emphasus on the newer characters.
I think the character could be taken a totally new direction if they based it specifically around totk Zelda. It would be interesting if they could incorporate the rewind mechanic
If she had some swardplay shed be great. She's great in hyrule warriors so if she got some new moves from warriors for ultimate she'd be much better.
As a Brawl Zelda main, it's surprising to see people dunk on her moveset so much. The problem with the moveset is only the fact that it leaves her open but it's not too unusual for a character to be left open during their KO moves. The real problem with Zelda is her agility and weight, exacerbating her risky playstyle by a lot. Otherwise Din's fire would be considered OP asf because that shit carried me so hard everytime, it's an incredible punish mechanic and racks up shit tons of damage without killing off the character, that is IF you know how to use it right. There's a learning curve with Zelda but the way you make the best of her is by leveraging her moveset to counter her weaknesses. Floating in the air? Use Farore's wind to teleport to solid ground + damage opponent. Caught in combo? Use Nayru's love. Need invincibility frames? Transform. Need to escape massive attacks? Farore's wind again. There's so many creative ways to use her but she's examined from the perspective of an offensive character, when the whole point of her design was to evade and defend while finding the exact right moment to hit with one of her insanely strong KO moves. I do get that obviously people would choose a much easier character to play with who is more straightforward but I think it makes her way more rewarding to play, and I think the tier lists are honestly kinda bs because the amount of power Zelda can pack is insanely good, especially in Ultimate.
To this day the best designed iteration of Zelda imo is in SSF2 0.9b. There since her aerials were faster and sweetspots were bigger she could combo sourspot into sweetspot of all her aerials and had a very nice playstyle, making her a top 3 character in that version of the game
Thank you.
Actually I would say she good in 9a as well.
She had combos and kill confirms into her already powerful finishers that even with good D.I. would lead to death.
I hated fighting her
Zelda Buffs Idea:
A buff they could do to the reflector on neutral special, is make it so said reflector sends projectiles back to their target at increased speed and with a soft tracking enabled. That way, even though her reflector wouldn't get like a super damage increase like Kazuya's, it could be used on certain matchups, like vs Samus, to effectively track them with their own projectiles AND shoot Din's fire at the same time. To add to this, the ending lag of Nayru's Love is also reduced on SPECIFCALLY her specials. This means she can also use Nayru's as an out of shield get off my option too whilst dealing damage with both the hits of the faster Nayru's and then the first hit of Farore's Wind, where Zelda can then choose to cross-up her opponents or move away for more zoning. The ending lag of specifically a grounded version of her Up special is buffed so that she can act out of it faster, but ONLY the grounded variant. This means she can use it to cross up more effectively. The start up of her side b would also be buffed, as well as buffing the speed of Din's Fire and allowing even more control over it. Finally, Phantom Slash gains a physical hitbox that when fully formed can wall out opponents unless they jump over it (and takes a little less time to fully form). Additionally, a player who has hit a fully formed phantom will take an extra 1.25x damage from the move as a punish, and if they're hit from point blank range, instead of a single hit, the move now carries the opponent its full length away from Zelda, with small hits along the way into the final slash that sends them away. This improves all of Zelda's specials and makes her keep-away game even better.
As another buff I'd give her, on the other side of the spectrum for how she plays, I would make specifically her dash grab faster, and with longer range, so that when she uses her grounded up special, she can use it to combo into a dash grab if spaced properly. On top of this, her down tilt gets its extended hitbox returned, and is 1 frame faster, lifting opponents above Zelda's head when used to combo into an up tilt which is now 2 frames faster on start up also, which finally can lead into an up air that's still the same as it was before. It also means she can combo it into Nair, which I also think should have buffed frame data to be able to perform drag downs into it and potentially finish with a phantom slash on the final drag down, that won't be fully formed, but will still smack opponents away from her. Her first jump height has been reduced, as has her jump squat even more, to allow for better nair loops
Oh, giving her neutral special a 7% armour also means it can stop most jabs from stopping it also, meaning its an even better out of shield option. And having the final hitbox of the move send more diagonal upwards can lead to a nair loop at low percents/sweet spot fair, or a din's fire at higher percents to push enemies away and potentially even kill.
Oh, and her sour spots on fair and bair are reduced with her sweet spots taking up more of said hitbox, to make them more consistent tools without buffing their damage output. Her fall speed has been increased also, unless coming out of an up special, and is slowed down to a slight stall if she uses side special whilst falling. Additionally, she gains a revenge hitbox on being hit from performing a Din's Fire, that hits the attacker for 1% and does a small stagger. Stopping her from getting comboed to death out of a Din's fire, even if she's punished for it.
My FINAL FINAL idea, would be to give Up Special a new charged option only on the ground. This new charging ability, gives Zelda the ability to essentially stir up wind all around her, and after teleporting, the wind will follow behind her in any given direction she teleports. The wind pushes all oppoents in that direction towards zelda for a grab (reverted back to not being slower anymore) or any sort of punish. However, if she is hit during this move, it cancels it entirely and stuns zelda slightly, giving the other player a solid punish. It can also be aimed down when fully charged to create two smaller but more powerful wind boxes, that keeps Zelda on the spot, but any oppoent in its radius will be flung much further away. Finally the up angled version of this move will follow Zelda and give her a brief platform to land on once for a very brief amount of time, to give her time to start a Din's Fire from a high point and as she's falling, combo it into another Din's fire. The hitbox for the up version is the widest, and players lifted up by it will be flung above Zelda's head directly for a nasty up air punish. This move pushes/pulls foes more effectively the higher their percentage currently is! All of these can be charged in the air, but only used when she has feet planted on the ground. If you use them in the air, she will instead do a normal teleport.
All of these buffs I think would keep her core kit the same, but make her a much higher tier than she currently is in Smash Ultimate. She'd be a wifi menance. And her Din's Fire buff would make her able to punish more predictable recoveries more to be able to kill off stage also, without her having to go offstage herself. Leaving the rest of her kit as is, is fine in my opinion. Zelda should have more focus on her specials than her smash attacks for sure!
If only you were on the dev team to give these godsend buffs to her.
I love Zelda a lot, and I try to make her work, but it feels so sad that she was just left in the gutter while Sheik got the glory of it just for being viable and more favored (except in Brawl of course, cuz MK exists). Ultimate Zelda had the biggest potential, and so did Sm4sh Zelda, but they just didn't do anything aside from give her a new Down B.
@@jeromesol2725 agreed, a lackluster down b with just the tweaks I mentioned, could be an amazing defensive option for her, whilst also synergising with her role as a zoner, carrying enemies across the stage!
My suggestions for her as a Zelda Main across all games would be 1) give her back her smash 4 d-tilt with its ability to combo due to its upwards knockback angle 2) bring back drag down nair for better combo routes and confirms 3) speed her grab slightly. 4) give UP Smash a larger horizontal hurtbox. This would maintain her weakness as still being a slower character with higher KO power but grant her a bit more consistency and meaningful punishes. Slightly larger sweetspot or smaller sourspots would be great too but i understand how powerful they are and why they arent easier to hit. They could at least not make the sour spots negative on hit though because being punished tor landing a hit is stupid. Slightly increase the knockback and hitstun on sour spot.
been a Zelda main since Brawl lol and definitely, the major flaw with her design philosophy is that, she's mostly designed like a glass cannon, she has powerful hitboxes (namely in her aerials and specials) but is lightweight and has trouble landing. but the problem, is that her powerful hits aren't powerful enough to justify their risks, namely Lightning Kick sourspots and such. and meanwhile, her tilts and weaker attacks are just rather weak and not quite fast enough, so it lends to her often not having good enough defense once you get into her space. and while her specials help with her keep-away game, they're rather linear so she actually can be somewhat predictable (despite being the wielder of the Triforce of Wisdom lol). definitely what would help her a lot is just giving her some solid attack options rather than putting a risk-reward on everything, for example a faster and more utile fair would help immensely, and then keeping her bair Lightning Kick (bairs are inherently higher-risk, so give it higher reward) and buffing the range on her magic attacks so she can at least cover more space around her, even if it's on her weak attacks. even so, I still do enjoy playing Zelda but it just sucks to see her so underrated after all these years, and I suspect it's mainly from people who just think "oh Zelda has the same moveset so she must suck again" and then voted her bottom-two or something :/
She’s still based on this old version of her that relies on sheik to do all the fighting and for her to do the KO.
Zelda feels like a heavyweight without the heavyweight.
It's just that she has more moves that don't work in her favour compared to other heavyweights which doesn't bode well when she can't survive as long as them either
Dedede's Gordo admittedly isn't the best neutral option but if the opponent isn't immediately about to attack they have to play around or respect Gordo at the very least lest Dedede punishes them heavily. Inhale's buffs help to delete Dedede's projectile weakness much better. Not perfectly but it also helps Gordo to not work against you and can even enhance it.
Bowser's special kit is all useable in some way. An incredible command grab, a great damage dealer/walling tool in flame breath, a surprise kill/shieldbreaker in bowser bomb and a useful panic button in Up B.
Incineroar has a slower but potentially stronger command grab and a counter that can help stuff out reckless combos/strings, projectiles or even the odd recovery. Incineroar's frame data is amazing all around too. Like this character would be top tier with just movement speed buffs alone, that's how hard Incineroar's moveset carries him.
Zelda... Is really awkward. She technically has boxing options but they're not as reliable as Bowser or Ridley. Her specials can help her but aren't as versatile or devastating as Bowser or Dedede (Phantom Ledgetrapping and Up-B out of shield are good but Zelda overrelies on Phantom almost to the extent of Electric Wind God Fist on Kazuya and Up-B is a defensive option which can only extend her mediocre moveset as opposed to enhance it.)
And bro, she's nothing compared to Bowser or Kazuya's presence. Their armour takes away options and their mobility quirks (auto-turn around, dash crouch, Bowser's run speed) force you to respect them or die, especially with the rage they get from actually being heavy.
Poor Zelda actually can't catch a break
Her saving grace is her Phantom that basically acts as a teammate. Its windbox delays rushdown characters and can put opponents into hitstun if they try to break through it, which buys Zelda much needed time to punish and space. The one thing that dooms her the most is her disadvantage state where she cannot land nor has reliable tools to take back stage control. She's arguably one of the best characters when it comes to maintaining an advantage state, but it's never going to remain consistent in higher level play.
I do feel as if that desperate attempt to cling onto the moveset she’s had since melee is the thing that sucks. A moveset already quite bizarre for the princess given how physical based it is with just sparkles attached and gimmicky specials that just leave her fully completely vulnerable for not real sufficient reward for how hard they are to get off even now. It’s a shame that the wielder of such cool mystical magic has such an un creative,restrictive and honestly unfocused kit. I feel as if certain modded movesets I’ve seen for her at least had some unique concepts for reworks and buffs to give her that mystical tactician type of vibe from such a slower and floaty character.
It really just is so glaring to see how well Peach worked out as a floaty technical character with her unorthodox by surprising affective mechanics like floating and turnips. The fact that I can’t point to really anything besides her phantom which in itself has its limitations of its own specifically with range attacks and pressure against Zelda stopping it from being nearly as a formidable obstacle to stop Zelda from being so easily punished from any initiation or unsafe moves Zelda would attempt to throw out there, which for the longest time has been a decent lot of her overall kit.
Just imagine if she did have a dins fire that came back to her like the one from project m! A damaging orb for poking, pressure and combos or her phantom was able to do a lil more in some form. I know I’m jabbering on but I would’ve loved this more deal with my specials and their map control in a sense so that I can set up stuff or just simply allow myself to get off things I normally couldn’t given my more floaty and slower build. Kinda like how she does now but in a more affective, varied and definitely elegant way given she is a princess.
Her specials imo should be direct distractions to defend her or even just allow her breathing room to use her tilts/aerials/smash attacks or just simply to approach with how slow she still relatively is by comparison. Instead they leave her vulnerable and she’s forced to use one after the other with no other actions being done whilst she’s using them it’s really just clunky. Gimmicky at best and trash at worst. It’s also incredibly disheartening cause they’ve shown not only have they been able to fix the transformation mechanic but they have so many more characters in the game that specialise in camping, trap setting and space control alongside independent activating moves that would give Zelda breathing room and in some ways free rain to get off these slower or less affect moves while her opponent has to deal with blocking and avoiding those specials and like I said even something as simple as having to worry about a phantom or let say a dins fire that comes back to Zelda instantly gives her some threat of potential counter hitting/pressure to stop opponents from just running down on her and punishing everything she has. Plus giving her at least some form of initiative given she can’t just easily run at you like a decent portion of other characters and she lacks the same aerial moves/overall aerial movement that the likes of Peach and Puff have had in all iterations. I just don’t think she really excels at anything in particular, especially nothing that justifies just how weak and lacking she is in a lot of more fundamental aspects let alone her kit just not really having imo a real sense of identity or clear way of usage to lets say the average/new player. Whilst also being of course quite weak and demanding for well skilled players who could get any type of value or interest you could possible grasp from her kit from a character that just has more with less limitations.
That was A LOT of yapping I know but it’s well deserved for such a beloved character treated with such little love balance wise and creativity wise with her kit.
They could do so much if they simply tried or cared and I mean modders like Project M have shown the way specials and even certain moves of hers could reworked to dodge around the limitations of her base character.
At this point Zelda feels like one of those characters that needs to be redesigned from the ground up, maybe not entirely but definitely needs to be unshackled from her current moveset, like a lot of old timey characters.
Leave up b, down b, all her aerials beside nair and give her a nair that is big and fast so that it fixes her neutral and disadvantage.
Also, don't replace her already excellent f smash with a worse one.
i think zelda has a bad design for a glass canon she slow dies at low early and mid kill power and they just never fixed that
If/when we get a new smash I NEEEEEED Zelda to get a completely new moveset. I love the idea of her being a mage, but we gotta freshen it up cause she has been so lackluster for so long 😭😊
The only problem that could come from Zelda being a high tier is that people would say I'm a tier wh*re again like when I played Cloud
I like both zeldas but in melee being able to switch between a ranged and a speedy character
So much for being a strong princess.
NGL, Zelda's Ultimate design is probably my least favorite design of the character in any game ever. I don't know why Sakurai thought going with the A Link to the Past design for Zelda instead of the marketably more reasonable Breath of the Wild design for her was a good idea (apparently, he thought BOTW Zelda was more of a researcher than a fighter, but that's kinda ironic considering that ALTTP Zelda is even more of a pacifist canonically than her). And I honestly can't stand her voice in Ultimate compared to how it was in Melee-Smash 4. She's definitely the best-playing version of the character, but design-wise is just a complete downgrade in every way.
Maybe he just wanted a bit more variety with the Zelda game representation so it wasn't as overly focused on just 1 or 2 games like previous games + WW, a design that isn't TP because they were moving away from that after sticking with TP for 2 games in a row, and a Zelda that isn't affiliated with Sheik or the sheikah in any way to better reflect the fact they're two separate characters now, and a Zelda that wears a dress as her default outfit because that's part of her main appearance in Smash and reflects that she's not supposed to be too nimble, and ALttP may've hit all the spots
this take is insane to me bc the only reason i picked up zelda was because of how cute she looked. i cannot comprehend this take
I feel like Zelda is a poorly executed version of Chizuru from King of Fighters, especially with Phantom Slash. She shouldn’t be bound by the triforme abilities as it’s clear Din’s Fire holds her back so much.
Oh god, now I'm imagining a Phantom version of Windmill Clones...
Zelda has been my main since Melee and I'm happy she's just playable in Ultimate. Project M Zelda was goated tho, especially the patch where she could use three din's fire mines at once
if they just gave her range on ftilt and fair/bair she'd be at least mid tier. her specials, smash attacks, throws, up neutral and down air are all fantastic attacks, but what makes her entire kit fall apart is her lack of midrange tools. the only slightly viable midrange tools she has are dash attack and nayru's love.
"Fun" Fact: In Smash 4's first official tier list, Zelda was at the bottom of that list.
That being said, I am very displeased of how she was (and STILL IS) a low/bottom tier character for two whole decades.
I honestly feel like the development team that balances out characters flat out hate Zelda so much, Gannondorf is in the same boat too, but at least he was viable in Melee.
No. I'm talking about the first official tier list of Smash 4 from 2016 before Corrin and Bayonetta came out. In that tier list, Zelda was dead last.
Zelda in ultimate was mostly buffed and the only reason she is bad is because other characters were also buffed but more
@@thepooroldsoul8179 That is because that tier list came out right before patch 1.1.5, which provided Zelda a large amount of buffs to her combo game. Vanilla SSB4 Zelda was terrible, nerfed from her Brawl iteration, but post 1.1.5 Zelda is at the very least no longer a worst character in the game contender.
@@the_bookworm8281 Zelda was actually buffed in SSB4 but she was still bad.
@@TheTrixster690 She is buffed overall by the end of the game after patches, but prior to patches, she was even worse than her past iterations due to most of her tools getting toned down for whatever reason.
My big problem with smash ultimate Zelda is she may have been moved up on the tier list (not by much), but she moved significantly down on the sick list, and it ruined the reputation of the character. Before smash ultimate, if you mained Zelda, people thought "huh that's interesting, cool", but now because of how obnoxious she is, if you main Zelda, people will go "ew, she's so lame".
Also IMO the design change was a huge nerf. I don't care if people were tired of it, TP Zelda is such a good design, and I wish it was still an option as opposed to a shitty skin.
Nice to see another fan of her Brawl/Smash 4 design. People kept saying she was boring and ugly because of her design, when the real problem was her stiff and awkward animations. I'm glad they gave her better ones in Ultimate, but it kind of saddens me that they only did it by changing her design.
No, Zelda players were always called annoying. This was the same in Smash 4.
I'd love to see a video on Toon Link the consistent mid tier
I remember quite liking Zelda in Sm4sh with her down throw up air 50-50 and if you're able to read the opponent's DI you can follow the first hit of Up B into the second hit and potentially get a stock at certain percentages.
However, compared to Zelda in Smash Flash 2 that's boring, back in 0.9B she actually was the best character in the game, she fast, side b didn't put you into free fall and could be used as a bit of a horizontal recovery tool due to it, but most importantly her up air, f-air and b-air were all very strong the weak hits of the side aerials could be used in combos and the strong hits of all of them could kill at low perecentages. She obviously got nerfed, but that version of her was my favorite Smash character ever. Also I liked what they did with Sheik in Beta onwards, they changed her side b from the chain to Bouncing Fish while still keeping the transformation down b.
Even today in 1.3.1 ssf2 zelda is ranked higher than any of her official releases (26 out of 47), shes got a decent mid tier kit and is pretty fun.
Glad others are talking about SSF2 Zelda and how amazing she was
I beat my friend with zelda in smash 4 wii (casual with wii remote) literally once and I've mained her ever since.
I'm practicing Zelda for my first smash local tournament, I can't believe how much this lore is improving my mental about her. Even though she's weak she's insanely hype to play. You can't get bored with how many options you have and how satisfying it is to pick and create new combos each time you pick her up. But yes this explains why I always "picked "Zelda yet remember playing sheik and the "just wait till I transform" 😂
There’s a tier list that compares every smash character in all the games combined.
Not a single Zelda in any iteration of Smash made it past D-.
The fact that Zelda's been my main since Melee and she's the only character I manage to be consistently good with her being my most difficult character to defeat, despite all my other mains being ranked way better competitively... I guess people just don't expect to see her so don't know how to approach her as well as they do higher ranked characters.
It feels like they were for some reason afraid of making her too strong so they hold back a lot with her buffs and then threw all this precaution out of the window once they moved to newer characters. And they don't seem to realize how fatal lacking speed can be.
Then they give super fast characters great recoveries and super strong moves but still refuse to give Zelda some decent frame data, keep her vulnerable but still won't make her conciderably more powerful than other heavy hitters.
I think good buffs for her would be to make all her basic attacks faster and easier to hit with, make her fair and nair faster and increase the knockback of her sourspot so that the opponent gets at least off her. A rigid knockback growth on that move would result in its sweatspot still being worth to hit while also keeping the move from being a high commitment attack, so that you can use it like aerials are meant to be used. This way, the sourspot cannot kill but the move becomes generally safer and easier to use but you still have to use the sweatspot to get an early kill. And don't nerf the sweatspot!
Give her nair back its dragging property to enhance her combo game. Also make it range larger.
Make her jab less lagy.
Make Din's Fire much faster. It is ridiculous how good Snake's side B is or how other characters have massive projectiles but they won't give this move basic speed or some decent knockback. It is almost useless against grounded opponents because of how easy it is to deal with on ground. As it is now, it only works for edge guarding.
Give her more ground speed and more air speed.
As a Zelda main.. I already feel bad for her, as she looks really strong to me.. But that won't stop me from maining Zelda. She's my one and only character in Smash. I will never give up! :)
Do How Good Is Yoshi In Melee And How He Was Changed In Project+
yeah
I've always loved and used Zelda as my main character, I've never really been into Sheik. I thought Sheik was faster yes but lower damage. I've only ever played Melee and Brawl to death, no others. I was absolutely shook to see that she is ranked so low, I thought she was amazing with high power moves, and her side kick was my favourite move ever.
When the video started with "changing seasons" i knew it would be a good one.
Great video, new sub!
Being both slow AND lightweight is just a formula for a terrible character no matter how strong your other moves are if you don't have amazing zoning and keepaway tools and I think that's where Zelda's moveset is fundamentally flawed, even in Ultimate. I main her because I think she can be very tactical, but her moves have tons of wasted potential. She would benefit so much if they took a page out of Snake's moveset and let Zelda set up beyond just phantom, which is still too slow and predictable IMO. Viable slow but light characters like Puff and Peach have other unique movement properties that aren't about ground speed. Minmin has incredible keep away tools. All three have done form of disjoint. For Zelda it should be teleportation.
If Phantom and Din's fire could be left out and "detonated" at will, if Nayru's Love was even better at pushing opponents away, and if up B was a better escape tool, you'd have an amazing character, basically one that's all about stage control and snowballing if left to her own devices.
The closest she got to this was in Project M when she had 3 Din's and I was really sad that devs got cold feet in the end, took it away and didn't completely lean into the archetype. She's much better overall in PM obviously but it's no coincidence that with just one Din's and no phantom, she's still bottom tier. Having that much stage control and keepaway was pretty radical at the time, but now you have Steve and Min Min, so not letting a slower, lighter character have something similar I think is criminal. Combining the movesets of Ultimate and Project M would bring her closer to this.
I appreciate what you were going for with this video, but I find that you do not give Brawl and Sm4sh enough credit.
Brawl actually made many of her moves genuinely intimidating and Sm4sh was notable era in which actual work went into making zelda function as a genuine character. She had a notably decent grab-game, her up-special introduced one of my favorite combos to date in the elevator, her up-special snapped to ledge (FINALLY) and so many other technical factors I want to make a video on to this very day.
Compare that to Smash ultimate that took many of those tools away and implemented what felt way more like bandaid solutions to many of her problems and I will adamantly argue that the sm4sh incarnation is a better designed character and while I appreciate your perspective on this topic, I feel your research into particularly her sm4sh iteration was excessively weak.
I disagree. Sure they added nice things to Zelda in each game, but I think each smash game it really wasn't enough to get her out of being a "bad character". Theres something off with her actual character archtype that keeps her from getting any better. And too be honest a lot of the older versions of Zelda were not good at all (Brawl and Smash 4 especially) you can't argue that they were some of the worst characters in those two games, because literally she just is. People say all the time she "underrated" but she literally never moves anywhere on any tier list, and no one has made any work compititvely with the character (no disrespect its just the sad truth).
I think people have a strong emotional connection to Zelda's character, but that just doesn't translate to a viable character, no matter how you fight it. She still bottom tier
@@bobbob7885 She is bad in every smash game, yes. There is no denying that, but I am looking at it from a design perspective because Sm4sh actually began to hone in on giving her a functioning kit with moves that actually begun to synergize with one another.
Smash ultimate rather than build on what began to shape her in sm4sh, kinda half-assed the progress made by changing some of her kit, but keeping the same macro-structure and giving her seemingly random buffs without much rhyme or reason behind them.
@@TJ-Henry-Yoshi Fair points, but I still gotta disagree. If anything the better version of Zelda was the smash ultimate version. The Smash 4 version of Phantom was kinda weak, and lackluster. But in Smash Ultimate they would buff those aspects of her kit. I don't think its integral to give Smash 4 Zelda that much credit, because its one of the worst versions of the character of all time. Like sure there is posititves there, but they didn't balance the SLEW of weaknesses that character had. like HC said, "how is Zelda going to beat cloud or bayo" she just isn't chopped up to be good in that meta
My hot take with Sm4sh Zelda is that Rage was the final coffin to her viability. It completely ruined Dthrow Uair, which was her only viable kill confirm (& Uthrow Uair on Fast fallers). She would be bottom 5 instead of bottom 2 if Rage was axed LMAO.
@@bacc2pracc154 I firmly believe Zelda was a better character than dedede, Ganon and Little Mac due to some of the advanced tech in her kit that those other characters firmly lacked. It required a higher level of execution, but wave bounces, teleport cancels, the elevator combo, ledge-trumps, and some other smaller movement tech firmly demonstrated a high potential.
And no, the finger bang was _not_ her only kill confirm. dragdown Nair->Up-special was a true combo, d-tilt->f-air, while precise could also work quite often and of course, her backthrow litrerally just kills
Agree with everything except her oos in ultimate. Up b frame 6 killing as low as 60 and hits both sides, bair and fair frame 9 oos and kill earlier than any other Ariel in the game (except falcons knee is more powerful than fair), up smash is frame 9 and is as powerful as ikes, nair is frame 9, and nayrus gives frame 7 invincibility when short hopped oos. Aside from mobility too be significantly better she’d just need a super safe ariel and a safe tilt.
Im a Zelda main and one thing I’ve noticed is that Zelda is disproportionately harder to play when people get better because she relies on players making mistakes and landing safe/misspaced moves
just gotta be the better player and force mistakes
Her oos is incredibly strong in proportion to its speed but its not consistent. She can only punish misspaced attacks with her oos if the opponent lands really close to her, and if she misses them herself she can get punished hard. LK and UpB out of shield are perfect examples of that. This means that unfortunately she can still get pressured in shield. Contrast that with bowsers vastly superior upB out of shield...
I don’t know what to tell ya. I’ve main’d Zelda since Brawl, and I’ve decimated as her! Her A moves were punishing with a huge hit box, and her air kick was a solid KO. The biggest nerf was making Farore’s Wind unpredictable as far as where you teleport.
the zelda in ultimate's HDR mod is perfect. i'm an absolute menace to my friends playing her xD she flows so perfectly. you can actually just play her as a rushdown character if you really want to (though she's still better as a trap character like in PM).
i also think that the case for a lot of smash ultimate characters is that it is the players who dictate the tier list. mk leo has even shown in the past (with ult and sm4sh) how far a character can climb just by him using them. i have no doubt that zelda would also shoot up at least a couple of tiers if someone who really had a knack for the game itself picked her up. ultimate has better balance across the cast than any other smash game, which is crazy to think with how many characters it has. there are obviously some really cracked characters like steve and aegis, which is why they are top teir, but everyone in mid and low (not bottom) tier i think has a lot of potential for growth if they're just picked up by the right person.
I was one of the few people who year one of ultimate having mained zelda in 4 was like zelda's still kind of bad. Despite receiving a lot of buff from 4, she also receive a lot of nerfs. I feel her concept just doesn't work. She is a trapper doubling as a glass heavyweight precision brawler. She is tall, short ranged, slow, floaty, light, inconsistent, and laggy. In return, she is stronger than average, has long lasting hit boxes, and has a great ledgetrapping tool. Half of her moves straight up don't work or have completely needless drawbacks.
She straight up struggles with many archetypes due to her design. She struggles to get rush down off of her due to her inability to box with her only get off me being effectively a counter with how committal it is. She struggles with hit and run with no way to effectively chase or cover space with large hitboxes. She gets out zoned by zoners having poor projectiles for the purpose of trading projectiles and her anti zoning tool is a major commitment. She struggles with swords due to her lack of range and her inability to close gaps.
I'm over here mainly using Zelda and narus love can throw back projectiles and can damage nearby enemies I love venture teleport factor because she is zext to impossible to keep of the map
Something to note is that Zelda in Melee and Brawl were considered much stronger in the earlier years of those games, the former of which because she was attached to Sheik for the most part, and the latter of which because her moveset is heavily buffed in comparison to her Melee self. Of course, both would eventually be dropped to the bottom tiers, (in Melee) once players discovered how weak her moveset and attributes are, and (in Brawl) once players discovered her unaddressed weaknesses and how poorly she translated to Brawl's engine.
SSB4 Zelda did not have the luxury of early meta optimism: she was seen as bottom tier from the very start of the game. As a matter of fact, she was nerfed in comparison to her Brawl self, and thus was in an absolute miserable state for a long time in the game, even being ranked as the worst character in the first official tier list (patch 1.1.3). The slew of buffs she got in patch 1.1.5 helped her out quite a bit, thus she is considered to be a notable step-up in comparison to her previous iterations, but she still a bottom tier character regardless.
I know you wrote this 1 year ago but I believe Zelda and Sheik should be 1 character in Brawl. Zelda has the KO power Sheik lacks.
@@TheTrixster690 That was theoretically an idea that the Brawl playerbase put into mind; indeed the Zelda/Sheik dynamic has a far better place in Brawl due to Sheik's poor kill power that Zelda can complement with, which is what they were going for in Melee but failed miserably in doing so.
Unfortunately, it still didn't turn out that well in practice because Brawl's transformation moves takes way too long to execute due to Brawl's loading times, meaning that there is little ways the two can actually safely switch. Also doesn't help that Zelda still sucks, so in the end, pretty much every Sheik player still plays her solo.
I had the most fun with Smash 4 Zelda. Her combo game with jab, up tilt, down tilt, nair and down throw was extremly good and fun to use. You really didn't want to get grabbed by her. While ultimate Zelda is better she's also way more dull. None of her previous combos really work anymore and she resolves around spaming knight which I don't find fun.
Agree..her d tilt sucks in this game
Bro i feel like Sakurai has beef with zelda for some reason. They made Pyra and Mythra perfectly but here Sheik and Zelda are with zelda being terrible and sheik being amazing. As a Zelda main i feel heartbroken by this. They did her better in smash ultimate. But she could still be better. Especially cuz of the fact that shes a GODDESS or smth yet here we have Bob the builder (steve) just a normal guy who can build really fast somehow being better than zelda... the amount of times i wanted to give Sakurai a call when i play with zelda is a bit crazy even tho i main her. Shes still alright tho you just need to learn how to master her.
Melee zelda having a frame 5 aerial that kills spacies at 80-100 for an extremely easy sweat spot is something I don't think people talk enough
Also from some reason Zelda feels like REALLY good into yoshi
It was weird how her kicks worked as they should have in Melee, but just ruined them afterwards.
@@gleamingroses2952 tbf I think her bair in melee is broken
if it was on any the top characters had that it would break the game
Melee Zelda is underrated. Still garbo but below Ness & Pichu?
Most of her floaty MUs aren't too bad (except Puff, who can hold down & force Zelda to make risky plays or air camp the entire time). Can even fight Peach on YS/FoD & my hot take is Zelda may even win on the former.
@@bacc2pracc154the problem is outside of fair and bair, her other moves are pretty garbage. Down smash and dash attack are good too, and her grab is decent, but almost everything else is absolute dookie, ESPECIALLY her multi hits.
You lots: Zelda is low tier
Me: *having a 80% rate with Zelda in Brawl*
in ultimate, the phantom setup are great and very hype on high level but she rly need to get her basic attack frame data reviewed, more knockback on soursport, and maybe a buff on din's fire. Speed or atleast a weight more bonded with her slowliness
I ended up maining zelda and my success rate with her compared to everyone else in extremely high. She has my 2nd highest gsp and jigglypuff has first… but I do manage to get pure luck every now and then
This isn't Smash related, but it's amazing how many times I hear "Changing Seasons" in a week 😭😭. I fucking love that damn song and all persona OSTs
Can’t win with Zelda if you don’t have a plan. You can’t play her reactively, your foresight has gotta be 20/20 for each character you fight. Ven proved she’s viable. You just gotta practice, be patient, and know your opponent. Experienced Zeldas are filthy animals and they will make you cry
He grab is melee is so bad, even if the throws are good. Y'all know that her standing grab is like 5 frames slower than any other typical "use-your-hands" grabs? 7 vs 12 iirc
I'll be honest, I never paid much attention to Zelda in Melee. Brawl was where I dipped my toes in the water when it came to her and Smash 4 a little more. But Ultimate was where I became a bona fide Zelda main (thanks in huge part to her design, really; Link Between Worlds is one of my favorite games). She might not be the BEST character, but she's fun to me!
7:47
Why does Ganondorf have such a frustrated s***-eating grin?
My sister mains Zelda and recovery is a really good kill move
Zelda is only low tier because people don't know how to play her, however it is VERY true she was kinda doomed from the start with how they mismanaged her move set, especially with Sheik.
Now late smash ultimate meta, she still sucks pretty bad
Zelda feels REALLY GOOD to play when you actually have some room for setups. Unfortunately, Rushdown Fighters with any form of Relect just DESTROY her gameplan.
I pocket Zelda, but I'm admittedly terrible at this game. While I can see all of her downfalls, I'll say this though: I _never_ liked how she played until Ultimate. Yes, she's still far from "good" competitively, but what very few upgrades she did get were _felt._
It ultimately didn't amount to much, but...hey, it's something.
If the aerials weren’t so hard to land she’d be top tier
Ultimate zelda is currently the best zelda by a small margin. As of February ultimate zelda is in the 9th percentile compared to the 2nd percentile in smash 4, 3rd percentile in brawl, and 8th percentile in melee. Still bizarre that zelda still received a bunch of nerfs from smash 4 because she was doing so well before. F-tilt got slower, thinner, and had its hitbox priority changed to be a true tipper. Down tilt lost its combo potential due to a knockback angle change. N-air lost its auto link hit boxes making it significantly less consistent and no longer able to do drag downs. My favorite confirm in smash 4 was nair up b which doesn't work well in ultimate.
transforming chachters where split in smash 4 because of the 3DS version
I main Zelda in Ultimate and she feels most natural to play. I, unintentionally, usually gravitate towards low tiers and Zelda is perfect for how I like to play. Knowing how badly she got shafted makes me more proud to play her and want to stay with her even more, as well as, main her in other games. She deserved better
I miss when she was two people cause it was a nice niche she filled, now Pythra took that place and it sucks lol
Its really heartbreaking as a Zelda main. Sakurai just straight up hates her for no reason, its like when he first saw her, he was like "you know what, i hate you, i'm making you the worst character in the game" and then made her the worst. And then Brawl, he made her even worse. She never gets enough love from Nintendo and everyone. If Nintendo doesn't fix her and make her a better character, then i want the modders to fix her just like how people fixed Sonics movesets with less spindashes.
Sadly, people would just remove Zelda like in that Melee mod where she was replaced with Sheik. Or her being excluded like in Crusade and Smash Remix.
It also makes me sad how Zelda suffered more than anything and people more bad for Ganon and Mac.
If i really want her to be the best, i would want her movesets to be based on either Echoes of Wisdom or Hyrule Warriors.
If Roll got fixed in Tatsunoko vs Capcom, then Zelda should atleast be fixed and deserves what she needs.
If anyone has some new movesets ideas for her, let me know in the replies.
Do Better Nintendo
In Brawl she's mid tier.
I honestly didn't know Zelda was bottom tier until *WAY* later after I started maining her.
Maybe it's because I've always liked using female characters and I've always loved princesses (I also main Peach btw) but I still main Zelda, she's pretty awesome IMO.
Hi, my name is Raykushi and I was, at the time I was active, one of the top Zelda players in the world for Ultimate.
Something I appreciated about the video was explaining how the limitations Zelda had in previous games that was designed with Shiek in mind still persisted even after they ended up splitting permanently. I also think your comments about her limitations from Melee to Smash 4 are accurate.
That being said, I think the analysis on Zelda's Ultimate variation was a bit lacking in comparison and the conclusion drawn is, in my view, inaccurate.
I may be in the minority on this, but Zelda's reputation as still "bad" in Ultimate is due to a few factors.
1) Her moveset is still mostly the same. So because Ultimate Zelda's kit carried over from iterations of Zelda that were bottom tier, people associate that moveset with being bottom tier even when the character has been buffed enough for that to no longer be the case.
2) Zelda's reputation has been severely compromised by WiFi. Since WiFi Zeldas only resort to cheesy strategies and special spam, people falsely believe that that's the only or main way that Zelda can be played.
3) Because WiFi Zelda is degenerate due to connectivity issues, the character attracts many low level players due to the perceived ease of use, which only makes Zelda's results suffer more when the character is used offline.
4) Simply put, the people who play Zelda, for the most part, are really bad at the game. Those who are good, like Ven, don't even really take advantage of the elements that make Ultimate Zelda really good. Ven, while a great player, plays Zelda like it's Smash 4 Zelda in many instances.
When it comes to your specific comments made, there were a few things that were incorrect.
I'm not actually sure if her Down Tilt is shorter, it never felt like it - but overall the move is much better. In 4, it was too laggy to follow up into anything other than a 50/50 upair at 110%+, and was much laggier. Ultimate's comes out much faster, has way less endless, and combos into Dash Attack or Fair because of the changed knockback angle. Zelda's grab is slow, this is true, but it actually has decent range - more importantly the pivot grab range is bloody massive, and her throws more than make up for that - 2 kill throws and 2 combo throws.
More importantly, and I cannot stress this enough, you are wrong about her Out of Shield options. You'd actually be hard pressed to find 5 characters with better OoS options than she does. She has 2 frame 6 OoS kill moves on either side of her, a generous nair which can hit opponents even when they cross up the shield, a frame 6 upB that kills or can just be used to retreat, and of course, though of grab is slow, the fact that her grab is so dangerous makes it an option worth worrying about. Typically if you so much as tickle a competent Zelda's Shield you're going to get counter attacked.
With regards to people thinking Zelda is a mid tier - this is actually a sentiment still carried to this day. The page that you're using is a strictly results based tier list, and if you read what I wrote about Zelda players just being kinda bad, you'll understand why she's so low. On that particular chart, if the top 10 players all started using Zelda, you'd see her position increase substantially for instance - that obviously wouldn't make the character magically better. While results based charts are a decent resource, they often don't tell the full story of a characters viability (for instance, without Armada in Melee, Peach would be considered a much worse character if we used only this resource), and even with Zelda's negative reputation competitively, most top players tend to put Zelda's in mid tier, around the 15-20th worst in the game.
My perspective on her viability is that she's on the cusp of being a high tier, though many people disagree for the reasons I stated above - even other Zelda mains are much more cynical about her moveset. Here's how I see it - outside of very specific matchups, Zelda's Phantom now gives her almost exclusive control over the pace of the game. In Smash 4 and prior, her frame data was horrendous, and she was slow. She had no means to approach her opponent, which was a shame because her combos even in Smash 4 were excellent. Ultimate Zelda changed this completely - if Zelda is given the leeway to charge her Phantom, her approach immediately becomes extremely dangerous. It forces opponents to either contend with a Phantom-backed approach, give up stage control, or try to approach Zelda proactively (which is what she wants). She went from having a horrible neutral to having one of the best neutrals with that single change. It's not as though Phantom is a laggy option either - for perspective, Phantom takes 72 frames to fully charge, Diddy's Banana pull is 60 frames. Now also imagine if Diddy could throw the banana early at any point during the animation.
So we're talking about a character with extremely fast boxing tools (dtilt, jab, uptilt), extended combos, a reflector, a combo breaker, good camping tools, 2 combo throws, 2 kill throws (her backthrow being one of the strongest in the game), the strongest Bair, the strongest upair, almost the strongest fair (darn you falcon), the 2nd strongest ftilt, huge disjoint, amazing edgeguard and ledge trap power, an amazing and damn near un-interceptable recovery, one of the strongest neutrals in the entire game, and one of the most dangerous shields in the cast full stop - and people think this character is bad: Mostly due to a combination of misinformation about the character that persists from her previous smash iterations, a moveset and Wifi connectivity that attracts a low skill player base, propaganda spread that popularizes incorrect stats about the character (for instance, before ZeRo was banned, he made a tier list in which he stated Zelda has no OoS when she plenty, but his popularity at the time superseded any corrections to the contrary so a lot of people just falsely think she has no OoS options. The same thing happened with Bowser Jr, who he claimed had no combo throw when he does.), and a compromised reputation as being a "gimmick wifi character".
Sorry for the text wall I get very passionate about this. Zelda as a character is an interesting case study.
hey, I’ve started playing ssbu not a long time ago and I immediately choose Zelda as a main, I really want to play her in a type of really agressive style but it seems like the only way to play her in online is as you say by spamming, do you think I should just switch to another character? or should I keep trying to play her the way I want even if it’s really hard in online?
Hey there friend.
The issue with wifi is that the connectivity and input delay is so bad that Zelda is often rewarded for playing degenerately, and it's much more difficult to actually play Zelda in the way I believe she would be realistically used in an offline environment, because a lot of her combos have tight windows and her gameplay style overall is very reactionary. Don't let me tell you who to play and not play, if you enjoy her you should play her, just don't expect to get away with certain things offline that you would online, and also, you wouldn't be getting the kind of practice Zelda needs for offline play when you play her online.
@@0001absent
Camping is just the easy way to win. There's nothing wrong with being aggressive, but you're going to want learn how to not be reckless. Trust me, Once you learn her tools and where to use them, it's a ton of fun. I think she's best with a mix of the two. The only way you will get better is to have fun!
Her oos options are relatively fast and powerful but inconsistent and can get her killed. A really talented zelda player can take her far, ie Naskino, but there are times when she just explodes when in disadvantage or at ledge. She also in theory controls the pace of the game, but knight timings are something that can be studied and exploited due to its long startup, and with her lack of midrange options she can just get baited and punished. And her boxing options. They are decent but by no means the best by a long shot. And her neutral being one of the strongest by charging phantom knight... what? Phantom isnt even a good neutral tool in most matches imo. Its a big risk in neutral for her to charge it a lot of the time. Ive seen your gameplay and your zelda guide but a lot in your comment feels like early zelda metagame optimism and doesnt reflect her in the context of the rest of the cast now.
My sister always mained Zelda in melee and brawl she loved switching between them but hated when they made them separate... Now she mainly mains sheik since he kills easier. She mainly mains them to counter my Bayonetta now
sheik is a girl
i love watching ur content while eating lunch, great video.
on topic of zelda, it always felt like they didn’t really know what to do with her in past games.
Glad you enjoyed!
Interesting take--Cant wait for more content!
I think that Sheik just isnt meant to be a seperate fighter in later entries. In the newer games, she like cant kill. Hence pyra and mythra, some of the best characters in the game. You first play mythra to get the damage, the switch to pyra to finish em off.
Sheik sucks at killing in Ultimate.
@@TheTrixster690EXACTLY.
Atleast with other characters like joker who have a similar issue, his smash attacks can still kill. And his knockback also not that good. But when he gets arsene then you say “heh heh. *GOD MODE ACTIVATED*”
With Sheik, she has nothing. No kill confirms, one of the lightest characters in the game, high falling speed and gravity makes her prone to combos and early kos as well.
Also, let this sink in.
3 Sheik fairs do the same amount of damage as a SINGLE pichu thunderjolt. HOW IS THIS CHARACTER 31?! LET ALONE A HIGHER RANK
I’m curious as to where you source your tier list info?
Probably just SmashWiki or Liquipedia
You know it's bad when ganon has been a better character throughout the games
Zelda was ranked higher when she’s blond lol. But in all seriousness it sucks how she’s mostly in bottom tier or bottom 10
she's not low tier yall just haters :)
In Brawl she's mid tier.
such a well made vid ! i main her in ssbu and love eeeeverything about her hhaha
Zelda is actually one of the most powerful characters in the game
Nice video. Pretty sure up b started killing in s4. She is definitely better in every game. Melee vs Brawl is debatable. Nair, dtilt, , and jab was better in s4 than in ult. all 3 moves still usable as they were in s4, but harder for various reasons. The drift buff on her up b in Ult is a great change alongside her aerial side b changes. s4 phantom had it's uses.
Nice in-game camera work and editing. Hopefully they improve her a lot more in the next Smash game.
At least She's a casual top tier
Strong characters, Weak characters. Thats just the selfish ways of man. True players won with their favorites
Neutral b begs to differ
I like this content you could even say it is honest content
What about project+ Zelda?
She's good, maybe not one of the "best characters". But every character is viable in P+ so you can play whoever you want type of deal, the cast is balanced really tight-nit. She maybe has some of the same flaws as previous versions of Zelda like being light, and annoying sour spots. One of the things I liked about P+ Zelda is they made her tilts/smash attacks REALLY fast, and hard hitting. So if an oppenant is trying to pressure Zelda up close, she can reverse them, with her strong tilts/smash attacks and combo off it. It makes Zelda have a chance in those more aggressive matchups against rushdown characters imo.
She's fun to play in P+, she is one of my pocket characters.
@@ZachHonest sounds very fun, thanks man
the sonic music in the back makes me feel like a nerd cause i know 😭
this is like comparing the iphone 14 to the iphone 3. makes no sense. no pyra mythra without melee zelda period
Lo triste? Que Smash Ultimate es la tier list más alta que a estado 😢
The main issue with Zelda are the stuff around her kit, rather than the kit itself. Sure there are things about the kit that could use work, like Dins, f and d tilt or her non F smash smash attacks. But for me if theycwant to make Zelda slow she needs to be slow in one way. If she's slow on ground she should be more mobile in the air, since being fast on ground wouldn't make sense. phantom needs to stay since Ultimate is the only game where ot is fleged out and the main issue is why she has to use it, not because the move itself is bad. There are some tweaks i would make to some moves, like giving her light bow with stun arrows, since she is portrayed as having connection to the goddess it makes sense she would have moved that corelate them.
this begs the question tho, since we all know ultimate zelda is the best zelda, which zelda is the worst zelda not counting sheik ? (i’m well aware that melee zelda is bottom 3 and not bottom 2, but then again shes competing melee kirby + melee bowser which are barely even functional)
Melee Zelda only has 3 good attacks. The rest don't even work.
@@Juan-zs6jtHer tilts, dash attack, throws, back air, forward air and down smash are good.
@@TheTrixster690 Fair, Bair, and DSmash are her 3 good attacks. Her tilts are laggy, don't combo, and have no range, dash attack is tied to Zelda's awful speed, the throws are locked behind an awful grab.