I agree that solar titan is generally the best titan. Prism titan is super fun, but its bad at grenade regen, it doesnt lean into effects on grenades as well (except shackle because shackle is what it is), and prism lacks consistent healing on its own. Sunbreaker is just so well rounded as a subclass with strong survivability, weapon integration, ability regen, and super options, its really hard to beat. Personally, I just got bored of it during the pre final shape season because I used it so much due to the heavy artifact support it had. It does have problems. It needs an exotic to have a one and done super. Hammer of sol takes a long time to do all of its damage and is the only option on airborne targets. Hammer strike struggles to be worth choosing over throwing hammer in pve. Its not the dps monster that nighthawk is, even with pyrogales. Its supers lack the utility of solar warlock supers. And like most titan subclasses, class abilities do next to nothing for the subclass naturally, and are rarely useful to allies. So its extremely well rounded and generally strong, and arguably hae the hardest hitting regular abilities thanks to Roaring Flames; but its still sort of a "master of none" compared to the other solar subclasses that can do everything it does, and do some things better. Sadly, thats kind of the current state of Titan in general...where theres not a single Titan subclass that really truly sets itself apart from all the other subclasses in the game as being really indispencibly good at any one thing. And whenever something does pop up for titan that starts getting popular and standing out to set the class apart, Bungie hammers it back down like whack-a-mole; even though Hunters have been top of the popularity heap forever.
Currently using prismatic titan with twilight Arsenal + a heavy grenade launcher for the artifact perks. Really good won’t lie. Better than my solar and void builds. I can deal with a lot of the grenade delay because of things like consecration spam.
@@PearlPredator yeah I think it feels dope af, consecration might be my favorite ability. They only suck if you can't hit the melee, which is a problem for sure.
@@PearlPredatorYes for 7 years and especially this year, prismatic,while triple consecration can be strong knockout being the only way to heal is extremely clunky, why would I play void titan with how clunky the portable shield is and the tactical nuke that made bubble useless, arc titan is beyond useless due to how bad the melees are, knockout is unintuitive, and thunder crash can’t even kill a champ while almost every single other damned burst super can do it safer and with more damage somehow, solar titan is somewhat a saving grace due to survivability with healing nodes but still suffers from no burst super without the use of a exotic, stasis was absolutely gutted due to global stasis shard cooldown, and strand while strong will fall apart when melee range isn’t an option. Meanwhile hunters and warlocks have ranged supers, bring utility through there aspects like bleakwatcher, or damage like celestial golden or consecration blow seriously man wake up.
I can't believe that salt didn't just say "On solar titan i can just focus on everything else and try to figure out mechanics, it requires no brain power to play"
I suddenly want to use my Briarbinds build and force Contraverse Holds to build good again just to spite them putting Voidlock in B because "Prismatic has all of the good things from Voidlock" lol. Should have been A, imo. Wayy better than Arclock. Devour is definitely the "main Void thing" on Prismatic Warlock, but Prismatic didnt take everything from Voidlock. Void soul and overcharge grenades are still strong, and still unique to Void, but it made sense that they didnt consider those as the "best parts of Voidlock" because theyre not good in all content. Also look at how they massacred my boy Contraverse. Damn those mod changes in Lightfall. My favorite build is so hard to use now. Its too inconsistent.
Echo of Remnants makes Vortex nade so much better too and stacks with Chaos Accelerant. Add in Contraverse Holds and your grenade ability is miles better than the entire Stormtrance super lmao
I really didn't understand their placement for arclock and voidlock. I main warlock and try to have fun messing with all the subclasses (yes, the 6 subclasses) and arc feels way worse than void
I'm sure many others have said this, but a large part of strand warlock's value comes from DPS capabilities. This is because thread of generation + thread of ascent enables a lot of powerful rotations with reconstruction rockets or cascade point edge transit. All 3 classes have this utility, but warlock is the only one with a burst damage super. Prismatic's designated reload fragments has an obnoxiously long cooldown period, and the only class that matches this kind of reload utility is probably stasis hunter with whisper of impetus. Additionally, prismatic does not have access to thread of evolution to further boost super damage (star eaters on prismatic generally does more damage though and nova bomb is more consistent to hit, so go figure). There's unfortunately not a lot of exotic synergy for strand warlock's damage output, leaving necrotic grips as your best option, but I think it excels as a dps class (especially in speedrun and raid environments) when survivability isn't as much of a concern. Ironically, the threadling based subclass's has nothing to do with threadlings.
Prismatic basically deprecated stasis however glacial quake remains the best hybrid / sustained damage super in the game. It deletes high value targets (tormentors, vehicles, mini bosses, group of champs, etc.) in seconds and really rips through time gated GM bosses. You just spam heavy attack from a short distance where the crystals cluster and burst into the target resulting in crazy shatter damage, it is so fun and satisfying to see the target's health bar disappear. Your content and voice are always appreciated however perhaps you still need some education on stasis titan / glacial quake. Stronghold lament and Lancecap w/ wicked implement, buried bloodline, or revision zero are two of the best end game PVE builds in the game.
@@kylemorgan4708 I agree however solar hunter still is mainly dependent on its super and formally was solar warlock. Also, as someone who consistently plays stronghold it is unquestionably best on stasis or strand subclass if we aren't including prismatic. overall, every subclass IMO is at least B tier bc they all have at least 1 or 2 top tier PVE end game builds.
@@lingeringdread oh, I strongly disagree with you there. Solar Hunter’s super is not what puts it directly into s+ tier, it is what elevates an already s tier subclass into s+. It has great damage output with Radiant, Scorch, and ignition that are all pretty easy to proc and maintain, and great survivability with healing grenade, that is also very easy to maintain. Also, it’s setup works great with just about any weapon setup as long as they are solar. Slow and Freeze are not as easy to proc on Stasis Titan, especially against flying enemies and enemies beyond melee range, Frost armor is nice DR, but not enough on its own for good survivability, and you are more limited with weapon setups that work well with the class. Now we look at the supers, and sure Glacial Quake may melt a boss, as long as it is in melee range, where as golden gun is good against any boss, and with Nighthawk you get back so fast there is no worry about using it on champs or yellow bars as well. Finally, if every class is at least B tier, then B tier is just your new C tier.
@@kylemorgan4708 solar hunter was B tier prior to the nighhawk changes so the buffed super did indeed increase its tier ranking. Solar titan and warlock have WAY better survivability than solar hunter hence why I would put solar hunter in A tier with the super being a hard carry. S+ tier is a stupid tier group. If you want to include an S tier group non prismatic void hunter IMO is the best subclass in the game. When you're talking champions GG w/ CN only works on 1 target and w/o CN the super is not worth using. GQ works on multiple champs hence why I said it works well as a hybrid super + sustained boss damage. Best of both worlds. The subclass is built around offensive shatter not defensive slow/freeze.
@@lingeringdread every solar class is listed as s or s+, and a big part mentioned for all of them is healing grenade. I don’t care about past tier lists, from what they discussed here I’ll give you A at lowest not considering the super.
I think a good change to make void overshield a little better would be while you have an overshield you are immune to flinch of any kind until you no longer have overshield. Small buff, but something. May make bubble with helm of saint 14 usable in certain situations against some boss encounters where flinch can be an issue. As far as consecration making prismatic Titan good, my problem with it is it is entirely reliant on kills to be viable. Unless you’re doing all the work or your team has great communication/coordination, you will be fighting for kills with other players and if someone screws with your loop by taking your kills, you got nothing. Even worse in raids, between 6 people, there’s not enough enemies for everyone.
As a Titan main who’s trying something different: Strand Warlock with Swarmers and specing as heavily into threadlings as possible, on Call and LMG, im not sure if I’d agree with B tier completely. Maybe A-, or B+. Every button I press is making a threadling, being ability or weapon kill. However, I’m only doing casual content, so that is probably why I’m enjoying it.
Prismatic Titan's 2 main builds are so good that I really don't play anything else the Sniper/Rocket Hazardous propulsion build **IS** very good for most DPS phases while running the Concecration slams as your main ad-clear Consecration Synthoceps is plainly so strong that most content can't stand in front of you (heck Class Item swap to HoiL/Contact is also extremely good at pretty much everything that isn't boss DPS)
I think Weavewalk should put Strand Warlock into A. It’s at will invisible and invincibility. Using Karnsteins makes it amazing, as you can use a finisher from Weavewalk. That being said, if you don’t know how to play that effectively, it’s bad.
I’ve been sitting pretty with song of flame and apotheosis veil and just run through everything it feels great for 30 seconds basically you’re decimating EVERYTHING
With void overshield on Titan it’s never been about the overshield, it’s always been about the benefits you get with overshield. Especially with all the benefits with overshield in the artifact right now
Prismatic Titan actually is really strong I've been spamming solar slam with it clearing everyrhing in GM's Also speedrunners in GM using Prismatic Titan makes them really strong
We don't say is not strong but like he said is melee or nothing I like consecration don't get me wrong but this is the only good thing for prismatic titan my friend for me prismatic titan need a rework 4 real
Me, a void and stasis Titan main. 😦 I think the sheer survivability of void Titan WITH the offensive potential now of twilight arsenal puts void Titan in A tier at least. But stasis Titan is straight up good, like, really good. The addition of frost armour really helped, I’d say it’s high A, pushing S. the ultimate is good for more than just cheesing Riven, it’s generally really high dps and overall damage against any larger grounded targets, and the rest of the class is extremely proficient in high stasis crystal spam which now results in respectable DR too.
One benifit of voidlock over prismatic is that Felwinter's Helm is incredibly powerful on Voidlock and is one of the best Warlock builds in general, especially in more challenging content. When you combine Echo of Obscurity and Echo of Cessation with Felwinter's Helm, with a single finisher you get Volatile on all nearby enemies, go invisible, apply a 30% weaken, and a disorienting effect. Additionally, pairing this with Echo of Harvest and Echo of Starvation makes you an orb-printing machine, as nearly all enemies you kill will be weakened from your finisher's. This setup provides absurd survivability, with each orb or breach pickup triggering Devour, acting as a full heal. It's genuinely the strongest build I've used, allowing for close-range play even in Grand Master-level content. The ability to cripple a group of enemies with a single finisher is simply unmatched. Furthermore, if you're fighting a boss with adds around it, you can easily apply the 30% weaken with a finisher and extend its duration with Child of the Old Gods, which is extremely useful for support. It's essentially a mini Shadowshot. All in all this build has great add clear, survivability, team support, and even boss damage with just one exotic. The only downside I've encountered is sometimes rushing into a group of enemies to land a finisher, only to have a teammate kill the enemy before I reach them, causing me to die. 💀 Edit: One last thing to note is that this build has amazing synergy with the current artifact mods
It may not have a ton of boss dps, but I love my stasis/ prismatic hunter. Infinite ability regeneration and ignitions. Never have to worry about anything.
They need to give Titans Melting Point back as an aspect or a melee ability. Surprised it got totally forgotten about. It would be goated in this sandbox. Flying kick into a boss for a 30% debuff for 10-15 seconds. Forever will be missed 😭
I will say, as somebody who has rocked Celestial Nighthawk for the fashion, especially during the times when it was trash, I'm just happy to see where it's at now. Agree with those Titan tiers. Class has been amazing despite the complaints, it's just not sharing the limelight with the most broken stuff in the game. Loving the Hazardous/Gundam build and the fact it's not another punch build.
I think the main issue with Titan for me is the lack of utility. ------- 1. Solar Titan provides zero real game utility to your fireteam. It’s more of a selfish subclass, where you stay alive and can turn off your brain. 2. Prismatic titan is amazing… but yet again, it’s only utility is ad clear. Which is great in GMs. 3. Strand titan is sort of another selfish melee subclass, although suspending is nice too (even with the nerf). Still, it focuses on ads and not team utility. 4. Void Titan struggles. It should be the main utility Titan, that focuses on keeping your team alive and buffing allies. But it simply is not good at it. 5. Arc/stasis Titan has virtual no real game use cases, and if there is a case, it’s so incredibly niche that if these 2 subclasses were removed from the game, some people wouldn’t even notice. ------- Essentially, every class can do ad clear, and I’d argue titans, with strand/solar/prismatic can do it just as good as anyone else. But, when it comes to supporting your team or doing damage to bosses, most people aren’t looking to Titan for consistent good dps (not that you can’t do good damage on Titan. You can do good damage on any class). Due to this, most Titan builds are revolving around ad clear, and subsequently build diversity on titan suffers. Hunters being able to make team mates invis or tether targets, or even do big boss damage on most subclasses allows Hunter to always be “useful” beyond ad clear in a fireteam setting. Warlocks being able to use things like turrets, or speakers sight, or song of flame/well allows from incredibly utility in fireteam environments beyond simply killing ads. Titans are great at ad clear. But I can do just as well on other classes, while having some great team utility.
@@Olgod2004 you're pretty much wrong about everything but void Titan and arc titan. Also, behemoth is good I don't know why people think otherwise. Also sunbreaker and berserker are NOT selfish subclasses I don't know what you're on about. 1 being that berserker has two aspects focusing on healing and buffing allies via woven mail and melee damage, it's like half helping allies and the other half helping yourself. 2, sunbreaker just isn't selfish, equip one fragment and you'll be helping your whole team out just by slaying. You gotta be a hunter main. Though the one thing you are right about is not a lot of build diversity.
@@sorrowsofmalice7718 i would consider them support roles if the buffs solar titan and strand titan provides were much harder to acquire on non titan classes. but the fact of the matter is, when picking up an orb of power, or using one ability (which you will have back in 5 seconds) grants that buff just by playing, why would you build a titan around team support. warlock and hunter at least provide unique and crucial support roles with some of their older builds (and some new stuff like speaker sight). Radiant and woven nail are just about the easiest things to get on ALL classes. Invis, tether, healing turrets, etc are not something titans can easily do, if they can even do it at all. Ad clear is by far titans best, and main role in team environments currenty. If they could provide consistent team support and boss damage to the degree of warlocks and hunters, then we would see them more often in competitive world first clears. obviously Salvations was a weird case with still hunt, but in most other raids, going above 1 titan tends to be a bad idea, as having 3 warlocks and hunters is much better. Look to deep stone, where it was mainly warlocks.
This kinda feels like an unpopular opinion but when I saw Warlocks had healing grenade AND devour on prismatic, i felt so bad for Hunters. I would seriously rather have solar grenade for Warlock over healing grenade. Ive never touched the healing grenade ever on my prismatic Warlock. We got too many options for survivability. Give the healing to someone else who needs it 😂
Hot take?… 1) Prismatic Titan is balanced when Transcendent 2) comparatively, Titans are so far behind Hunter and Warlock on playstyle variety fun factor it feels like all the tiers for titans should be lower. 3) yeah, I’m the guy that likes using stasis Titan and strand warlock in GM’s
That's the only issue with titan imo. On average the subclasses look to be just as good as the other subclasses, but they lean too heavily into the titan identity, and as a result have like two playstyles between all 6 subclasses. Their identity is the only thing holding titans back, throw in some more stuff like shield throw, maybe some more aspects like flechette storm and banner of war and I think titans would be a little happier just to be able to do more ranged attacks and provide a minor support role.
@@bekfistwolf8248 yes and no. A lot of the loops involving the ‘variety’ of Titan play (like shield throw, flechette storm, etc.) are just super weak compared to similar type loops on hunter and warlock. Why does shield throw not work like threaded knife? It’s tracking is worse and it doesn’t refund energy… and does less damage. Long been considered the weakest ‘melee’ ability in the game. A terrible feeling loop. Flechette storm is ‘cool’ but extremely weak and hard to loop even when building directly into it. You could let it take half melee energy per swipe and I don’t think it would help it’s utility or general play. The most fun I ever had with it was during season of witch where one of the cards let it loop nearly infinitely. The only time it felt satisfying.
1:00:26 void titan with doom fang works decent with any repulsor brace / destabilizing rounds combo weapons. Since those usually feel weapon doom fang does well to prop them up for a more offensive void build.
There’s this sort of common theme with Destiny where Bungie mistakes one thing for another and essentially does the wrong thing for the right reason. It’s hard to explain, but they mistake the root cause of a particular result, respond in a manner that would be appropriate if they were right, and the ultimate result is that they make things worse. For example, by and large, stuff doesn’t get nerfed because it’s overturned, it gets nerfed because it’s too popular. There’s plenty of overpowered stuff in the game, stuff you guys even mentioned in the video, but because it’s not popular it escapes the hammer. There’s always a cause for the popularity, namely that other options aren’t as good or as accessible. However, something being too strong is different from other options being too weak or less available, and they require different responses. What I’m trying to say is that if they, say, nerf Song of Flame for being a strong “default” option for content, which I think is inevitable, they will have once again missed the point: that if other options had as much of a clear, unique purpose, like Nova Bomb or Needlstorm do, you’d have more build diversity and game balance naturally, rather than nerfing things to force build diversity and leaving everyone unhappy.
Titan main here, the only thing I've found that prismatic titan really lacks is a way to proc devour. Once you slap buried bloodline on your builds, prism titan is at least much closer to being as fun as the other two
The thing with this list is that it is all considering prismatic builds. So for instance like you said void warlock becomes b tier. But actually it is better then arc. So for me it belongs in A. Like, if it is better then another subclass it should be in a higher tier, whatever prismatic build there is.
A good buff for void over shields would be to increase the amount they give from 45 to 100 minimum. Preferably 150. Also have it regen your health slowly while you have it.
Saltagreppo and his narrow view, leads to these takes that don't make sense for the rest of the player base. Only people with elite friends can go into GMs and facetank enemies. None of you guys go in lfg. If you did, you would know how completely incompetent most of the playerbase is
@@DescendantV Yeah but too many people are too stubborn and incompetent to stand in it...look I just finished a witness encounter attempt where a guy kept dying to the ads up front despite repeatedly being told not to
Exactly, the majority of UA-camrs and Streamers play with other people of the same caliber usually. Very rarely do these people actually play with incompetent people and see how the player base really is. Bungie conforms to everything Salt says, and it's disgusting. The majority of the player base has never completed a raid, nor completes them regularly. LFG is a nightmare for nearly every raid I do, and the few "good" players you meet are usually A-Holes.
Its only good in the hands of a very skilled player who can move their arse and avoid attacks consistently whilst maximising ability output. But it still is not great in high end pvp. Arc in general needs a rework. They either need to do someone to up its survivability. Or double down on the glass cannon speedster fantasy they have for the class, make it a high skill class (as opposed to void/solar which are pretty simple to master). Have it absolutely dump out damage and abilities whilst keeping the low survivability would actually make an interesting cost/benefit balance for the class. *oh and actually make speedboost noticeable, istg im running with speedboost in between encounters on a nightfall or whatever and I feel like im maybe 1% faster than my allies sprinting, like I cant even overtake them. This all circles back to cursed PvP balancing but speedboost should be a solid 25/30% boost to your sprint speed at minimum. I have a lot to say on the state of arc cos I love the idea of it and it is my favourite class (Arclock main) despite me knowing its objectively only better than stasis really across the classes. Arc warlock/titan supers need big help. Half of the fragments are either fully useless or are so niche theyre functionally useless in most builds. Arclock at least has good exotics and the other two classes have a couple as well. We could do with Arc 4.0 though if bungie has the development team to actually look at it (after recent news 🙄).
@@ross6789I dont want to come across like "nah screw your opinions, Arc bad," or anything, just want to say that Stasis on Warlock kind of just feels better than Arc (at least to me) just because of the increased survivability. I play super aggressively, even as a Warlock main, and I feel like Arc doesnt really nail that "aggressive playstyle" the same way that others can. Strand is faster, Solar is explosive and safe from constant healing, Void is kind of just "delete everything and get health back from it," and Stasis is freezing everything so they cant hurt you. Arc just falls short of everything, because, like you said, the speed boost from amplified is almost impossible to notice, blinding is a worse version of freeze, suppression, and suspension, and jolting is just the electric version of all of the other "AOE/explosion" keywords (ignitions, volatile, unravel, and shatter). Even Arc Souls, the original Warlock buddy, just feels worse than Hellion, Child of the Old Gods, Bleakwatcher, and threadlings. Again, it may sound like it, but im not shitting on you for liking Arc, youre free to have your own opinion, just listing my reasons for why i dont like it. I want to like it, and for it to be good, because i like Lightning Surge and the playstyle around it (and pairing it with Electrostatic Mind makes it better with all of the Ionic Traced feeding me so much melee energy), but the rest of the subclass just doesnt feel great.
@@viable3589 I don’t know, i’ve been able to make arc work well enough for aggressive play, but I will fully admit its so not meta, there are easier and better options out there. Strand like you say is basically everything arc warlock should be even thought its not even fully meant to be the speedblitz attack type class. Im also not convinced on your point with stasis. Especially post the final shape changes to stasis. I think stasislock has actually had its survivability nerfed since then. We’ve lost the intrinsic DR of that one fragment ‘stand near frozen thing to get DR’, in exchange for frost armour, which warlocks can’t even use cos they are forced to use bleakwatcher/iceflares for optimal builds. So stasislock has no survivability and I reckon bungie were talking out of their ass when they said ‘oh stasislock is in a fine place’ during that article they released detailing the changes pre final shape, I doubt anyone of the playtesters actually tried the new stasis on stasislock in high end PvE content or they’dve realised its gone from a mid at best subclass to actively bad Imo (Not that the DR from that one old fragment was amazing but it was something). So yeah I like arc as its the best audio/visual designed class imo and I can see the potential of its gameplay loops. But its not like I was defending it too much, most of what I said if you read it was actually me bitching about how it needs improving, and how only the top echelon of arclocks can make the class work in higher content in particular.
You guys are so wrong about strand warlock lol. It’s got insane dps, insane cc and ad clear potential, a great super, works amazing with the new raid exotic, and the new exotic chest piece is busted asf with it. Strand warlock has multiple builds that are super strong. Threadings are really good, unraveling rounds out the ass, woven mail, the infinite suspend build with necrotic grips and thorn/necrochasm, its synergy with the call etc.
@@vendexa5840 no it’s not. Nonstop suspending explosions everywhere, combined with a shit ton of threadlings and unraveling rounds etc. Best cc in the game outside of stasis. So NOT an overstatement
I play both prismatic titan and prismatic warlock and I don’t see how people can say one is stronger or weaker than the other in pve, they are both insane and their boss dps options are basically the same damage wise and yes titans average build requires rushing but with the builds you are taking way less damage and gaining health while up close, titans have less variety in their play style which is what most people are complaining about but it ends up with people saying it sucks when it really doesn’t, precision dps warlocks beat Titan most of the time, up close fights have titans beat warlocks most of the time, they are both good in their own regard with warlocks having a bit more variety but using that variety in play style will usually is worse while titans different builds are almost the same but all are nice. I know this is a pve video but in PvP prismatic warlock drops off, honestly other than arc, all the other subclasses seem more worth using and warlocks are the only ones in trials having prismatic not their top used subclass while titan prismatic is also being used more than prismatic warlock now too
If arc warlock got the season of the deep mod where you summon lightning storms that damage and jolt all targets anytime you get an arc ability or jolt kill, and they added the mod where you get damage resist while amplified, then arc warlock would be S+ IF it also got a damage buff to both supers also. Even without super buffs it would be S tier with the new fragments and aspect. I hope they do that in the future.
They seriously need to just give titan a strand gatling gun for their super... That was such a missed opportunity. Marksman hunter gets goldie, give the tank class a frickin A-10 warthog strand cannon or something! They need love bad.....and this is coming from me being a hunter main who has played my titan for probably all of 20 hours over the last 10 years
Abeyant Leap and Wishful Ignorance both push Banner Titan up imo. Abeyant giving long duration Woven Mail on each suspend gives insane uptime to go with Banner healing. Wishful gives much better brain off enjoyment on par with Bonk. Prismatic Titan definitely does Arc and Stasis Titan better with Knockout and Diamond Lance running Skullfort.
The issue with the argument that SoF isn't OP because it only makes one person invulnerable is ignorant to the fact that it not only makes everyone else significantly tankier (which stacks with their own power-crept tanky effects alongside healing turrets), it also gives huge damage at the same time. Well was broken before but what well didn't do was provide damage, only the tankiness, where as SoF gives tankiness alongside damage WHILE BEING ABLE TO MOVE!! It's also just so incredibly versatile with healing turrets, dawn chorus, and others. Truly unbelievably overpowered in my opinion.
Imo song of flame needs to do a little less damage, but needs to keep all the buffs it grants. It’s literally the old D1 support class, just brought up to modern terms. However, I think every other roaming super that doesn’t provide team utility (so like all of em) should be able to do as much damage (if not more damage for the melee roaming supers) as song of flame currently does. Roaming supers have been god awful (minus a very very select few) for a long while now. They should do much much more total damage in comparison to a one off super. Roaming supers tend to last too long for damage phases and have long cool downs.
Void Titan at b tier simply because peregrine’s. Swap out bastion for unbreakable to have a more consistent overshield and invest into getting your grenade back more. Bastion making your class ability timer 3 minutes is absurd.
Whirling Maelstrom alone makes strand hunter at least A. grapple canceling to make grapple points gives you infinite grapples. by far the funnest subclass to fly around the map
point is prism liarhandshake and solar on nighthawk are top tier for gm's 'n raid. and void is always safer for the newbies. but yea should probably be A tier
Love and agree with a lot of this however, my two disagreements are strand and stasis hunter. I agree there is nothing stasis has that can’t be done if not done better on prismatic, but I just feel like having the best of the stasis super, and exotics like renewal and bakris should push it to B tier. Bottom of B tier if you want but I look at C tier as “there is no reason to run this and also you are hurting yourself if you do” and while the first part is arguable the second simply is not. I’ve ran some of the tougher GM’s as stasis hunter and. It just because I could but because it was my preferred build. Strand hunter I would put on top of arc warlock but will accept as below it yet still in A tier. Great crowd control, great ad clear, good survivability. Strand hunter got me my first and most of my 50 onslaught clears as well as many GM completions. With all of this said, great list. Love your content. Just wanted to say my peace with my opinions.
Stasis Warlock on C??? Did everyone forget the Osmiomancy fever that has only gotten stronger and better ever since the exotic released or am I crazy? Also Arc Hunter def deserves A at least, Mactics is out here acting like he didn't make several videos on how Arc Assassin's Cowl was one of the best builds in the game. And also, Void Warlock is A at the very least for Briarbinds on their own
@@gokudrip6221 And that means that it's an automatic C tier?? Why not just put Void hunter in C tier as well since the only thing it does better than prismatic is longer invisibility for ONLY your teammates lmao
I agree with your take. Before prismatic void would have been probably A tier and stasis would have been B. In no world is stasis warlock comparable to stasis titan. Osmiomancy builds were great for harder content. Prismatic being in the game outshines these older subclasses, but void lock is still amazing for solo content and should have been at least B tier. Above arc warlock and strand hunter imo. Stasis warlock is just under arc warlock to me.
27:56 What is salt on strand tian is amazing for day 1. Has some of the best survability and team utility. I used it for everything and was chillin most of the time. The only part it wasnt the best was witness because of screebs and how witness dps works. Otherwise though its amazing
I hate that they fail to mention how banner of war on top of the rest of the strand Titan kit) even after the nerfs is still arguably one of the best aspects in the game.
@@splintercell320 of course bro put that with the new exotic one wishful ignorance you can get melee energy when you health your allies with banner of war
I still think solar titan is a little better for day ones, as I can get one kill for a sunspot and just heal while focusing on mechanics rather than slaying out to keep banner up. I even have a get out of jail card with hammer of sol, which has solid ranged ad clear and healing. But I will admit, strand titan does so much better in encounters where it is extremely ad dense. For example, I used strand titan for the first encounter of salvations edge and the third encounter on day one. Solar titan simply couldn’t kill fast enough. However, solar titan I found to be much better than strand on encounter 2 and 4 (although I couldn’t beat verity on day one), as the ad numbers are limited and I needed to focus on mechanics. I really wish banner of war wasn’t disabled for my crota day one clear, but it is what it is. Solar titan is old reliable, and I switch to strand when it gets more ad dense.
i'm trying to switch from warlock main to titan main, and got a really good roll of Spirit of the Bear x Spirit of Scars. i get my super really fast (love the thermite glitch) and have a lot of survivability. i can clear the waves of psions and knights on SE 2nd encounter first, and make short work of the Centurion too. would love to switch out some aspects still. i think the consecration melee is so good, but imagine if we had Howl of the Storm x 3 instead of Diamond Lance, which can arguably be gotten with that headpiece. it's good for PVP for sure, but it's just okay for PVE i think, unless you're soloing a GM and really need the stunlock. If we had Roaring Flames and it stacked damage on all abilities that would be amazing. Banner of War would solve a lot of problems too. Roaring Flames x Banner of War would be so good with Inmost Light. I think they locked in too hard on the solar slam, and have us double shackle with the class ability and with the shackle grenade.
Song of Flame is definitely overtuned, but I think there's too much a focus on the DR it provides (which is a bit high even in GMs) and not enough on the damage it provides. Compared to Stormtrance or Winter's Wrath, it's like choosing between pre-nerf Well vs pre-buff Nova Cataclysm. You'd be _crazy_ to ever run any other roaming Warlock Super over SoF. Repeated Ignitions from SoF alone do more damage than everything else the other roaming Supers do. I can see SoF getting a few more nerfs in the future, but at least the Ignition damage scaling nerf this week might help rein it in. It is a roaming Super after all and not great for boss damage, and since it really needs to shine when fighting lots of adds and dueling with Champions and minibosses, it needs to make you sufficiently tanky and ability spammy else it will remain underutilized like Stormtrance and Winter's Wrath. Re: Power Creep, I 100% prefer the aggressive playstyles enabled with these TFS changes over sitting in a Well and plinking away with a primary on a durable target. That was so boring and I avoided GMs entirely because of it. Now, judging the power of these playstyles vs old content like Exodus Crash or Fallen SABER might not make sense, but doing so against Liminality does (and in this GM SoF isn't that busted).
Imo the damage of song of flame is fine, and every roaming super in the game should be able to put out the same numbers (if not higher for the ones that are melee based roaming supers). Roaming supers have been bad as a whole (minus a very select few) for a long while now, and song of flame is a breath of fresh air to me. Personally, I think roaming supers should do substantially more total damage than an instant pop super, as instant supers have faster cool downs and the damage is dealt very quickly, allowing for quick usage of weapons. This would also potentially allow you to run a roaming super in a boss encounter. It may not be optimal, but you wouldn’t be throwing anymore, and if you run out of heavy/special you will have a use case for the super.
@@Olgod2004 As someone who prefers ability spamming over relying heavily on guns I agree. I think the other roaming Supers are just really bad and need buffs in addition to anything Bungie does to SoF (which hopefully is minimal).
IMO, they need to buff every roaming super by 50% to 100% depending on the super (and even that might not be enough). They also need to add a boat load of subclass verbs to all roaming supers that dont have it. AND THEN, introduce new exotics that vastly improve the supers up time and effects (we already have some, but many of them dont do enough). They also need to add a boat load of subclass verbs to all roaming supers that dont have it. IMO, i know that celestial nighthawk golden gun is a one off super, but im going to use this as an example. EVERY exotic that has a focus around a super ability needs to provide the same level of benefit that celestial nighthawk provides to golden gun. I think pyrogale is the closest one to it. (I could argue star eaters, but really its not an exotic that is specific to any super) By same level, I mean it improves neutral game or super up time, while drastically improving the super itself. This is why skull of dire on warlock is bad. It doesnt improve the actual nova bomb. All it does is increase up time.
Don't know why I watched this, since it isn't like I'd be playing anything but my prismatic hunter for the time being. Just sucks that I have to use the golden gun to get my orbs, or miss kinetic to get the stasis-thing. Maybe I'll change to void once I get the class item with gyrfalcon I'd want. Kinda want to do a lucky pants build also again.
Strand warlock, i agree not S tier, but A. I wonder why nobody talked about the strand poison thorn build, as i consider that more powerful/allround than the very niche DPS builds. For me the new exotic chest piece with wishkeeper is really good. Ive solo'ed a GM on thorn poison strand in the past. But I agree, it is good, but not meta defining or anything. For me the main reason it does not belong in S tier, is the survivability. (Compared to devour, restoration etc)
Saltagreppo is the ultimate elitist when it comes to Destiny, his opinion isn't going to be valid for 80% of the player base. Mactics understands a little more that not everyone is a day 1 raider or chasing master challenges.
I thought above and his takes were the worst. As a titan main, I actually agreed with salts takes on the Titan class for most of the video. Above kept saying how prismatic Titan has crazy damage resist. But this assumes you have this seasons artifact mod (which isn’t permanent), and you are running the strand Titan super, which most people are not doing as there are better supers. Salt really didn’t have too many bad takes in this video. I thought above was riding some subclasses too much. Salt was right putting solar titan in S tier. It’s not fancy, but it works really consistently in most content.
I think strand titan doesn't get enough credit, and void hunter just isn't very valid after the release of prismatic. Still good, but prismatic gets a better melee, a dps super option, can manage a gyrfalcon's+galanor which is basically just orpheus and gyrfalcon's at the same time.
Salt is a huge hypocrite. He has no problem with Song of Flame literally making you invincible and unkillable. But he had a huge problem with Well of Radiance being strong. The duality of it is remarkable, and Bungie needs to stop listening to him. "Well is too strong in team play" yet people will just run 3 Song of Flame Warlocks and clear GMs with ease lol.
@@SlongestKongeststasis titan is so slept on. I have an absolute blast playing stasis. Hoarfrost and verglas curve gives me infinite frost armor, infinite shatters, infinite ability regeneration
@@gigaxpudding7500 thanks everyone who is taking up for stasis titan I have the top ad clear stasis Titan build if anyone wants to try it, I can pretty much solo all legend onslaught
Prismatic warlock can literally do the good parts of stasis warlock but better cuz it has devour, and stasis hunter also is easily replaced by prismatic as it just has the good parts
I think they are wrong about strand warlock being better than the same strand/euphony build on prismatic. That build is so much better on prismatic for survivability. Sure you don't have thead of evolution but spamming threadlings with weavers call, threadling grenades, swarmers and euphony is enough. On prismatic you can survive with devour and woven mail from facet of purpose instead of only 5 seconds woven mail from thread of warding on strand. In the end both are fun but bad for GMs or Master level content. At best you can use it in master lost sectors but since linears are not in the artifact mods, champion stunning becomes a problem because you only have threadling spam. You can get anti-barrier from the radiant orbs artifact mod but that's it. Strand warlock is definitely B tier. The same build on prismatic warlock is A tier.
Returning from Lightfall - Season of the Wish Question: What happened to Solar Hunter to improve it's survivability? Because I remember running T3 Alters of Summoning with Solar Hunter and it was too squishy. Do able with a competent team but nowhere S++.
I would say an *enormous* amount of Prismatic Hunter's survivability/utility is grounded in some of the disgusting class item rolls, and that now, I think Prismatic would be near-as survivable, with the perfect setup. Plus some of the offensive combos are ridiculous. Also, the whole song of flame discussion being not about the super, but about how much we're in an offensive meta now XD Strand warlock is a speedrunning thing. You don't use it in the wild. You use it when you know exactly wtf is going on, so no one looking at a tier list for anything other than a laugh is going to meaningfully defend wherever you put it XD Also, Briarbinds. Void Soul is not on Prismatic, and with the essentially infinite duration, it's actually kinda stupid.
To the point around 27:00 - Im sure I'm missing things on prismatic, sure. Having said that, I'm able to do what I want with the builds I like to play and don't care about other things. Not everything needs to be the ultimate day 1 contest raid build.
Some subclasses have always been useless, like Stormcaller, no electrostatic mind from D1, melee range nerf, super is weak, difficult to chain lightning, chaos reach is bad now, you can't use it to heal or provide DR...so what's the point
I hate that arc Titan has been nerfed into the ground after hoil nerfs. Thundercrash has fallen in super dps. It needs a buff, damage and consistency. I want to direct impact my target, not slide past them like they’re coated in butter.
If you are into end game content, I wouldn’t bother. Synthoceps is much better on solar than Lorely. And synthoceps are the main exotic people use on strand, and even sometimes prismatic. However, if you are a new player or just starting to get into raids/dungeons, Lorely is a reliable option as an exotic for staying alive and learning how to do endgame activities. I wouldn’t get stuck in Loreley though. It’s good for new players, but it’s a B tier exotic at best, as it doesn’t do as well in end game content.
The issue with titans is that they have very little synergy across aspects and void titan in particular is dogshit because it relies on a dogshit mechanic (overshields). Plus the titan class ability is beyond useless (all three)
Useless is a strong opinion. I seen people easily solo grand masters with prismatic titans. I will agree that the class doesn’t have the ease of use or variety that the hunter and warlock has for endgame
It doesn’t rely on overshield at all lol. Void titan is extremely good rn after the buffs and with the new super. Sure, you CAN make a build that depends on it, but there’s multiple really good builds in it that focuses on weakening and/or spreading volatile everywhere no overshield required. The overshield is just a bonus.
@@hatchell18 WTF are you smoking? Buffs? What? The only thing void titans got was a solid super, but that is better taken advantage of on prismatic than pure void. The rest of void titan's kit literally relies solely on overshields unless you go unbreakable which is without a doubt the worst aspect in the game....
@@CHosey219 no it literally does not lol. I have multiple builds that don’t give af about OS at all. And they’re end game viable. So you have no clue what you’re talking about sorry.
The only void titan game changing “buff” was actually a nerf to bubble. With that being said, void titan with controlled demo and a void weapon like graviton or a void machine gun slaps in end game content and I’m surprised void titan gets so much hate. It’s more of a “meh” subclass. Over shield builds suck, which kinda is annoying considering how titans should be the king of overshields. But controlled demo and volatile is carrying it hard.
I am warlock main but use every class for bounties etc. I have 2 warlock builds both prismatic granade turret spam with geomancy gloves and other with maradoxia i can take those to gm no problem. With titan for easier content i like strand severance envlosure. For hunter i have nothing lol
Non-prismatic subclasses just don’t feel the same anymore. On top of that, the best builds are based on the usage of exotic class items, which not everyone has access to. In my opinion, Bungie messed up!
No offense meant but I do think you should use stasis warlock more and experiment with it more because it isn't just stasis turret, my first and only solo GM was a coldsnap spam setup using stasis warlock
The problem is the game is tuned so badly that you are forced to get 90% DR to be able to play a GM. If we didn't have a Well, then we would get wiped. The blast radius, frequency of hits, amount of damage are absurd. A Boomer Knight can 1 shot you even if you are in cover because of splash and element burns
@@SlongestKongest You missed where I said that the splash damage causes problems. You'll be 1 shot if lucky from the first blast and pushed round a corner to have a screeb push you and blow up
Dawg you don’t need well or song of flame to clear any GMs. I often don’t even take advantage of damage resist. They are nice, yeah, but I’ve done GMs with no warlocks soooo many times. With that being said, they should nerf the amount of damage we take at base, and then nerf damage resist along side it. That way non damage resist builds feel better, and damage resist builds feel the same.
I think the chromatic subclasses (single element) are a few buffs away from being just as good as prismatic, but only if transcendence is nerfed. the fact that it refunds your cooldowns for free is too strong in the neutral game to not take. (obviously this isn't taking into account optimal damage because at that point things like star eater class items massively tip the scales)
Not wanting to diminish the work of streamers, without you guys, all this great knowledge would be very limited However, in my opinion, you guys speak as if all Destiny players play impeccably like you For most players, even with these broken builds, content like raids and Grandmasters are very challenging and it will be borderline impossible without overpowered abilities
Personally, I don’t think good game design should allow players that are not skilled enough to play end game content an easy free clear of an activity due to broken abilities. There are many tiers of content. Players need to play the lower level nightfalls and develop better builds and skills to ultimately attempt and clear a GM. This goes for raids to master raids, or dungeons to master dungeons as well. Designing end game content in any game around people that aren’t skilled enough to beat them in the first place is horrible design. This applies to destiny as well. However, with how newer content is being designed (like the newest raid or GM in final shape), these abilities aren’t as busted as streamers make them out to be. In fact, I’d argue the strongest abilities in the game are decently tuned for even solid players to get a clear of a GM. Playing in the back with a scout rifle like we used to do 2 or 3 years ago is not good game design, and I’m glad builds are finally allowing somewhat aggressive play.
I still can’t believe people completely wrote off hammer strike- melting point as an ability. I will forever miss the 30% debuff titan melee. Flying kick into a boss then unload everything. 😭
I took getaway artist prismatic warlock into gm with no mods for build or weapon matching the surge and it was the easiest gm i've done. WARLOCK MASTER RACE!!!
i got distracted and heard mac say "buff devour and invis. they are useless now". Bout damn near snapped my neck looking back and saying "wtf did he just say" and had to rewind to make sure i wasn't misunderstanding................ thank got i misunderstood the first time lol
I don't agree for arc warlock. Without artifact, it has nothing for it, no survivabilty, same energy regeneration than solar and void (benevolence / devour and other things), worst supers...
Behemoths only strength is the power of friendship. Stack 3 to 6 behemoths together with hoarfrost z and watch your fps drop to 0😂 it's not practical by any means but it works and dear lord is it fun lol
This list just proves how the stasis update did literally nothing to fix the class. Still by far the worst class overall with really nothing unique to offer
I agree that solar titan is generally the best titan. Prism titan is super fun, but its bad at grenade regen, it doesnt lean into effects on grenades as well (except shackle because shackle is what it is), and prism lacks consistent healing on its own. Sunbreaker is just so well rounded as a subclass with strong survivability, weapon integration, ability regen, and super options, its really hard to beat. Personally, I just got bored of it during the pre final shape season because I used it so much due to the heavy artifact support it had.
It does have problems. It needs an exotic to have a one and done super. Hammer of sol takes a long time to do all of its damage and is the only option on airborne targets. Hammer strike struggles to be worth choosing over throwing hammer in pve. Its not the dps monster that nighthawk is, even with pyrogales. Its supers lack the utility of solar warlock supers. And like most titan subclasses, class abilities do next to nothing for the subclass naturally, and are rarely useful to allies.
So its extremely well rounded and generally strong, and arguably hae the hardest hitting regular abilities thanks to Roaring Flames; but its still sort of a "master of none" compared to the other solar subclasses that can do everything it does, and do some things better.
Sadly, thats kind of the current state of Titan in general...where theres not a single Titan subclass that really truly sets itself apart from all the other subclasses in the game as being really indispencibly good at any one thing. And whenever something does pop up for titan that starts getting popular and standing out to set the class apart, Bungie hammers it back down like whack-a-mole; even though Hunters have been top of the popularity heap forever.
You articulated your words brilliantly here, agree 100% with everything you wrote
Currently using prismatic titan with twilight Arsenal + a heavy grenade launcher for the artifact perks. Really good won’t lie. Better than my solar and void builds. I can deal with a lot of the grenade delay because of things like consecration spam.
To quote Tdt, “ Once again titans are last place in utility, last place in power, last place in identity.” Titan needs a serious rework man.
bruh have you played titan? It does have some shortcomings, but you're ignoring all the things possible on titan
@@PearlPredator Yea and it makes me want to play Warlock or Hunter even more (this applies mostly to Prismatic)
@@PearlPredator yeah I think it feels dope af, consecration might be my favorite ability. They only suck if you can't hit the melee, which is a problem for sure.
Idk man I love titans, but then again I love consecration also. I wish we had burning maul so I could use pyrogales also.
@@PearlPredatorYes for 7 years and especially this year, prismatic,while triple consecration can be strong knockout being the only way to heal is extremely clunky, why would I play void titan with how clunky the portable shield is and the tactical nuke that made bubble useless, arc titan is beyond useless due to how bad the melees are, knockout is unintuitive, and thunder crash can’t even kill a champ while almost every single other damned burst super can do it safer and with more damage somehow, solar titan is somewhat a saving grace due to survivability with healing nodes but still suffers from no burst super without the use of a exotic, stasis was absolutely gutted due to global stasis shard cooldown, and strand while strong will fall apart when melee range isn’t an option. Meanwhile hunters and warlocks have ranged supers, bring utility through there aspects like bleakwatcher, or damage like celestial golden or consecration blow seriously man wake up.
My responsibilities: ❌ Mactics 2 Hour Video: ✅
YES SIR
The discussions are more useful than the tier list by far. Listening to this helps my for my own opinions by filling in the gaps in my knowledge.
It’s frustrating how often Above just has no knowledge about destiny 2 the video game in this conversation
dude's just talking out of his ass the entire vid
How so?
I can't believe that salt didn't just say "On solar titan i can just focus on everything else and try to figure out mechanics, it requires no brain power to play"
I suddenly want to use my Briarbinds build and force Contraverse Holds to build good again just to spite them putting Voidlock in B because "Prismatic has all of the good things from Voidlock" lol. Should have been A, imo. Wayy better than Arclock. Devour is definitely the "main Void thing" on Prismatic Warlock, but Prismatic didnt take everything from Voidlock. Void soul and overcharge grenades are still strong, and still unique to Void, but it made sense that they didnt consider those as the "best parts of Voidlock" because theyre not good in all content. Also look at how they massacred my boy Contraverse. Damn those mod changes in Lightfall. My favorite build is so hard to use now. Its too inconsistent.
felt this
Ain't nobody using Arclock over Voidlock either lol
Echo of Remnants makes Vortex nade so much better too and stacks with Chaos Accelerant. Add in Contraverse Holds and your grenade ability is miles better than the entire Stormtrance super lmao
I really didn't understand their placement for arclock and voidlock. I main warlock and try to have fun messing with all the subclasses (yes, the 6 subclasses) and arc feels way worse than void
@@benoitgarin6477 Arc even feels worse than *Stasis,* which did kind of become irrelevant when Prismatic came out, like they said.
As a titan main, not even a single titan subclass making S+ tier is makin me sad.
This video came out 7 minutes ago, you have NOT finished it lil bro😂
After a year of being the strongest class in the game
@@BoberTeeprolly scrolled to the end
@@BoberTee bro thinks i need 7 minutes to watch a 2 hour video, what are you, the time police ?
Prismatic titan is S tier. But unfortunately only one build 😔
I'm sure many others have said this, but a large part of strand warlock's value comes from DPS capabilities. This is because thread of generation + thread of ascent enables a lot of powerful rotations with reconstruction rockets or cascade point edge transit. All 3 classes have this utility, but warlock is the only one with a burst damage super. Prismatic's designated reload fragments has an obnoxiously long cooldown period, and the only class that matches this kind of reload utility is probably stasis hunter with whisper of impetus. Additionally, prismatic does not have access to thread of evolution to further boost super damage (star eaters on prismatic generally does more damage though and nova bomb is more consistent to hit, so go figure). There's unfortunately not a lot of exotic synergy for strand warlock's damage output, leaving necrotic grips as your best option, but I think it excels as a dps class (especially in speedrun and raid environments) when survivability isn't as much of a concern. Ironically, the threadling based subclass's has nothing to do with threadlings.
My go-to subclass is Threadling Warlock with Wishkeeper, I pretty much don't take it off
Prismatic basically deprecated stasis however glacial quake remains the best hybrid / sustained damage super in the game. It deletes high value targets (tormentors, vehicles, mini bosses, group of champs, etc.) in seconds and really rips through time gated GM bosses. You just spam heavy attack from a short distance where the crystals cluster and burst into the target resulting in crazy shatter damage, it is so fun and satisfying to see the target's health bar disappear. Your content and voice are always appreciated however perhaps you still need some education on stasis titan / glacial quake. Stronghold lament and Lancecap w/ wicked implement, buried bloodline, or revision zero are two of the best end game PVE builds in the game.
A good super alone is not enough to elevate a subclass. Also, as they said, Strongholds + Lament makes everything good.
@@kylemorgan4708 I agree however solar hunter still is mainly dependent on its super and formally was solar warlock. Also, as someone who consistently plays stronghold it is unquestionably best on stasis or strand subclass if we aren't including prismatic. overall, every subclass IMO is at least B tier bc they all have at least 1 or 2 top tier PVE end game builds.
@@lingeringdread oh, I strongly disagree with you there. Solar Hunter’s super is not what puts it directly into s+ tier, it is what elevates an already s tier subclass into s+. It has great damage output with Radiant, Scorch, and ignition that are all pretty easy to proc and maintain, and great survivability with healing grenade, that is also very easy to maintain. Also, it’s setup works great with just about any weapon setup as long as they are solar. Slow and Freeze are not as easy to proc on Stasis Titan, especially against flying enemies and enemies beyond melee range, Frost armor is nice DR, but not enough on its own for good survivability, and you are more limited with weapon setups that work well with the class.
Now we look at the supers, and sure Glacial Quake may melt a boss, as long as it is in melee range, where as golden gun is good against any boss, and with Nighthawk you get back so fast there is no worry about using it on champs or yellow bars as well.
Finally, if every class is at least B tier, then B tier is just your new C tier.
@@kylemorgan4708 solar hunter was B tier prior to the nighhawk changes so the buffed super did indeed increase its tier ranking. Solar titan and warlock have WAY better survivability than solar hunter hence why I would put solar hunter in A tier with the super being a hard carry. S+ tier is a stupid tier group. If you want to include an S tier group non prismatic void hunter IMO is the best subclass in the game.
When you're talking champions GG w/ CN only works on 1 target and w/o CN the super is not worth using. GQ works on multiple champs hence why I said it works well as a hybrid super + sustained boss damage. Best of both worlds. The subclass is built around offensive shatter not defensive slow/freeze.
@@lingeringdread every solar class is listed as s or s+, and a big part mentioned for all of them is healing grenade. I don’t care about past tier lists, from what they discussed here I’ll give you A at lowest not considering the super.
I think a good change to make void overshield a little better would be while you have an overshield you are immune to flinch of any kind until you no longer have overshield. Small buff, but something. May make bubble with helm of saint 14 usable in certain situations against some boss encounters where flinch can be an issue.
As far as consecration making prismatic Titan good, my problem with it is it is entirely reliant on kills to be viable. Unless you’re doing all the work or your team has great communication/coordination, you will be fighting for kills with other players and if someone screws with your loop by taking your kills, you got nothing. Even worse in raids, between 6 people, there’s not enough enemies for everyone.
As a Titan main who’s trying something different: Strand Warlock with Swarmers and specing as heavily into threadlings as possible, on Call and LMG, im not sure if I’d agree with B tier completely. Maybe A-, or B+. Every button I press is making a threadling, being ability or weapon kill. However, I’m only doing casual content, so that is probably why I’m enjoying it.
Prismatic Titan's 2 main builds are so good that I really don't play anything else
the Sniper/Rocket Hazardous propulsion build **IS** very good for most DPS phases while running the Concecration slams as your main ad-clear
Consecration Synthoceps is plainly so strong that most content can't stand in front of you (heck Class Item swap to HoiL/Contact is also extremely good at pretty much everything that isn't boss DPS)
I think Weavewalk should put Strand Warlock into A. It’s at will invisible and invincibility. Using Karnsteins makes it amazing, as you can use a finisher from Weavewalk.
That being said, if you don’t know how to play that effectively, it’s bad.
I’ve been sitting pretty with song of flame and apotheosis veil and just run through everything it feels great for 30 seconds basically you’re decimating EVERYTHING
Nice to have some D2 content that isn't doom and gloom. Cheers!
Yes!! This too shall pass...
With void overshield on Titan it’s never been about the overshield, it’s always been about the benefits you get with overshield. Especially with all the benefits with overshield in the artifact right now
Yeah I feel both Voidwalker and Sentinel got shafted in this tier list. And yet Nightstalker is so versatile? It’s just invis and tether spam lol.
One of these guys kept cutting the others off
That’s above for you :)
Prismatic Titan actually is really strong
I've been spamming solar slam with it clearing everyrhing in GM's
Also speedrunners in GM using Prismatic Titan makes them really strong
That's what we dont like it's either melee or nothing
We don't say is not strong but like he said is melee or nothing I like consecration don't get me wrong but this is the only good thing for prismatic titan my friend for me prismatic titan need a rework 4 real
Me, a void and stasis Titan main. 😦
I think the sheer survivability of void Titan WITH the offensive potential now of twilight arsenal puts void Titan in A tier at least.
But stasis Titan is straight up good, like, really good. The addition of frost armour really helped, I’d say it’s high A, pushing S. the ultimate is good for more than just cheesing Riven, it’s generally really high dps and overall damage against any larger grounded targets, and the rest of the class is extremely proficient in high stasis crystal spam which now results in respectable DR too.
One benifit of voidlock over prismatic is that Felwinter's Helm is incredibly powerful on Voidlock and is one of the best Warlock builds in general, especially in more challenging content. When you combine Echo of Obscurity and Echo of Cessation with Felwinter's Helm, with a single finisher you get Volatile on all nearby enemies, go invisible, apply a 30% weaken, and a disorienting effect. Additionally, pairing this with Echo of Harvest and Echo of Starvation makes you an orb-printing machine, as nearly all enemies you kill will be weakened from your finisher's. This setup provides absurd survivability, with each orb or breach pickup triggering Devour, acting as a full heal. It's genuinely the strongest build I've used, allowing for close-range play even in Grand Master-level content. The ability to cripple a group of enemies with a single finisher is simply unmatched.
Furthermore, if you're fighting a boss with adds around it, you can easily apply the 30% weaken with a finisher and extend its duration with Child of the Old Gods, which is extremely useful for support. It's essentially a mini Shadowshot. All in all this build has great add clear, survivability, team support, and even boss damage with just one exotic. The only downside I've encountered is sometimes rushing into a group of enemies to land a finisher, only to have a teammate kill the enemy before I reach them, causing me to die. 💀
Edit: One last thing to note is that this build has amazing synergy with the current artifact mods
It may not have a ton of boss dps, but I love my stasis/ prismatic hunter. Infinite ability regeneration and ignitions. Never have to worry about anything.
Yo Mactics, absolutely loving the clone battalion in the background!
They need to give Titans Melting Point back as an aspect or a melee ability. Surprised it got totally forgotten about. It would be goated in this sandbox.
Flying kick into a boss for a 30% debuff for 10-15 seconds. Forever will be missed 😭
You're speaking my language rn. I found my home with a greaves melting point build. Then 3.0 came a few months later and life hasn't been the same
@@chrishaywood2458 heck yeah glad I’m not alone on this 👏😭 that would be mental 😩
I will say, as somebody who has rocked Celestial Nighthawk for the fashion, especially during the times when it was trash, I'm just happy to see where it's at now.
Agree with those Titan tiers. Class has been amazing despite the complaints, it's just not sharing the limelight with the most broken stuff in the game. Loving the Hazardous/Gundam build and the fact it's not another punch build.
I think the main issue with Titan for me is the lack of utility.
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1. Solar Titan provides zero real game utility to your fireteam. It’s more of a selfish subclass, where you stay alive and can turn off your brain.
2. Prismatic titan is amazing… but yet again, it’s only utility is ad clear. Which is great in GMs.
3. Strand titan is sort of another selfish melee subclass, although suspending is nice too (even with the nerf). Still, it focuses on ads and not team utility.
4. Void Titan struggles. It should be the main utility Titan, that focuses on keeping your team alive and buffing allies. But it simply is not good at it.
5. Arc/stasis Titan has virtual no real game use cases, and if there is a case, it’s so incredibly niche that if these 2 subclasses were removed from the game, some people wouldn’t even notice.
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Essentially, every class can do ad clear, and I’d argue titans, with strand/solar/prismatic can do it just as good as anyone else. But, when it comes to supporting your team or doing damage to bosses, most people aren’t looking to Titan for consistent good dps (not that you can’t do good damage on Titan. You can do good damage on any class). Due to this, most Titan builds are revolving around ad clear, and subsequently build diversity on titan suffers.
Hunters being able to make team mates invis or tether targets, or even do big boss damage on most subclasses allows Hunter to always be “useful” beyond ad clear in a fireteam setting.
Warlocks being able to use things like turrets, or speakers sight, or song of flame/well allows from incredibly utility in fireteam environments beyond simply killing ads.
Titans are great at ad clear. But I can do just as well on other classes, while having some great team utility.
@@Olgod2004 you're pretty much wrong about everything but void Titan and arc titan. Also, behemoth is good I don't know why people think otherwise. Also sunbreaker and berserker are NOT selfish subclasses I don't know what you're on about. 1 being that berserker has two aspects focusing on healing and buffing allies via woven mail and melee damage, it's like half helping allies and the other half helping yourself. 2, sunbreaker just isn't selfish, equip one fragment and you'll be helping your whole team out just by slaying. You gotta be a hunter main. Though the one thing you are right about is not a lot of build diversity.
@@sorrowsofmalice7718 i would consider them support roles if the buffs solar titan and strand titan provides were much harder to acquire on non titan classes. but the fact of the matter is, when picking up an orb of power, or using one ability (which you will have back in 5 seconds) grants that buff just by playing, why would you build a titan around team support. warlock and hunter at least provide unique and crucial support roles with some of their older builds (and some new stuff like speaker sight). Radiant and woven nail are just about the easiest things to get on ALL classes. Invis, tether, healing turrets, etc are not something titans can easily do, if they can even do it at all.
Ad clear is by far titans best, and main role in team environments currenty. If they could provide consistent team support and boss damage to the degree of warlocks and hunters, then we would see them more often in competitive world first clears.
obviously Salvations was a weird case with still hunt, but in most other raids, going above 1 titan tends to be a bad idea, as having 3 warlocks and hunters is much better. Look to deep stone, where it was mainly warlocks.
This kinda feels like an unpopular opinion but when I saw Warlocks had healing grenade AND devour on prismatic, i felt so bad for Hunters. I would seriously rather have solar grenade for Warlock over healing grenade. Ive never touched the healing grenade ever on my prismatic Warlock. We got too many options for survivability. Give the healing to someone else who needs it 😂
Hot take?…
1) Prismatic Titan is balanced when Transcendent
2) comparatively, Titans are so far behind Hunter and Warlock on playstyle variety fun factor it feels like all the tiers for titans should be lower.
3) yeah, I’m the guy that likes using stasis Titan and strand warlock in GM’s
That's the only issue with titan imo. On average the subclasses look to be just as good as the other subclasses, but they lean too heavily into the titan identity, and as a result have like two playstyles between all 6 subclasses. Their identity is the only thing holding titans back, throw in some more stuff like shield throw, maybe some more aspects like flechette storm and banner of war and I think titans would be a little happier just to be able to do more ranged attacks and provide a minor support role.
@@bekfistwolf8248 yes and no.
A lot of the loops involving the ‘variety’ of Titan play (like shield throw, flechette storm, etc.) are just super weak compared to similar type loops on hunter and warlock.
Why does shield throw not work like threaded knife? It’s tracking is worse and it doesn’t refund energy… and does less damage. Long been considered the weakest ‘melee’ ability in the game. A terrible feeling loop.
Flechette storm is ‘cool’ but extremely weak and hard to loop even when building directly into it. You could let it take half melee energy per swipe and I don’t think it would help it’s utility or general play. The most fun I ever had with it was during season of witch where one of the cards let it loop nearly infinitely. The only time it felt satisfying.
1:00:26 void titan with doom fang works decent with any repulsor brace / destabilizing rounds combo weapons. Since those usually feel weapon doom fang does well to prop them up for a more offensive void build.
There’s this sort of common theme with Destiny where Bungie mistakes one thing for another and essentially does the wrong thing for the right reason. It’s hard to explain, but they mistake the root cause of a particular result, respond in a manner that would be appropriate if they were right, and the ultimate result is that they make things worse.
For example, by and large, stuff doesn’t get nerfed because it’s overturned, it gets nerfed because it’s too popular. There’s plenty of overpowered stuff in the game, stuff you guys even mentioned in the video, but because it’s not popular it escapes the hammer. There’s always a cause for the popularity, namely that other options aren’t as good or as accessible. However, something being too strong is different from other options being too weak or less available, and they require different responses. What I’m trying to say is that if they, say, nerf Song of Flame for being a strong “default” option for content, which I think is inevitable, they will have once again missed the point: that if other options had as much of a clear, unique purpose, like Nova Bomb or Needlstorm do, you’d have more build diversity and game balance naturally, rather than nerfing things to force build diversity and leaving everyone unhappy.
Titan main here, the only thing I've found that prismatic titan really lacks is a way to proc devour. Once you slap buried bloodline on your builds, prism titan is at least much closer to being as fun as the other two
The thing with this list is that it is all considering prismatic builds. So for instance like you said void warlock becomes b tier. But actually it is better then arc. So for me it belongs in A. Like, if it is better then another subclass it should be in a higher tier, whatever prismatic build there is.
A good buff for void over shields would be to increase the amount they give from 45 to 100 minimum. Preferably 150. Also have it regen your health slowly while you have it.
Saltagreppo and his narrow view, leads to these takes that don't make sense for the rest of the player base. Only people with elite friends can go into GMs and facetank enemies. None of you guys go in lfg. If you did, you would know how completely incompetent most of the playerbase is
My LFGs successfully facetank GM stuff using the same things, so what gives???
@@DescendantV Yeah but too many people are too stubborn and incompetent to stand in it...look I just finished a witness encounter attempt where a guy kept dying to the ads up front despite repeatedly being told not to
That’s what I’m saying this video is shit
Exactly, the majority of UA-camrs and Streamers play with other people of the same caliber usually. Very rarely do these people actually play with incompetent people and see how the player base really is. Bungie conforms to everything Salt says, and it's disgusting. The majority of the player base has never completed a raid, nor completes them regularly. LFG is a nightmare for nearly every raid I do, and the few "good" players you meet are usually A-Holes.
@@insatiablenate3963 I would love for you to prove that Bungie conforms to ANY specific streamers ideas on how a game should be balanced.
arc warlock in a tier is definitely a take of all time, worst supers on warlock, bad survivability, it's only good when the artifact buffs it up
agreed i dont know how it got placed higher than void or strand even if pris exists
Its only good in the hands of a very skilled player who can move their arse and avoid attacks consistently whilst maximising ability output. But it still is not great in high end pvp. Arc in general needs a rework. They either need to do someone to up its survivability. Or double down on the glass cannon speedster fantasy they have for the class, make it a high skill class (as opposed to void/solar which are pretty simple to master). Have it absolutely dump out damage and abilities whilst keeping the low survivability would actually make an interesting cost/benefit balance for the class. *oh and actually make speedboost noticeable, istg im running with speedboost in between encounters on a nightfall or whatever and I feel like im maybe 1% faster than my allies sprinting, like I cant even overtake them. This all circles back to cursed PvP balancing but speedboost should be a solid 25/30% boost to your sprint speed at minimum.
I have a lot to say on the state of arc cos I love the idea of it and it is my favourite class (Arclock main) despite me knowing its objectively only better than stasis really across the classes. Arc warlock/titan supers need big help. Half of the fragments are either fully useless or are so niche theyre functionally useless in most builds. Arclock at least has good exotics and the other two classes have a couple as well. We could do with Arc 4.0 though if bungie has the development team to actually look at it (after recent news 🙄).
I mean to be fair, the stuff below it sucks too. Revenant in endgame is like bringing pepper spray and a trash bag to a warzone
@@ross6789I dont want to come across like "nah screw your opinions, Arc bad," or anything, just want to say that Stasis on Warlock kind of just feels better than Arc (at least to me) just because of the increased survivability. I play super aggressively, even as a Warlock main, and I feel like Arc doesnt really nail that "aggressive playstyle" the same way that others can. Strand is faster, Solar is explosive and safe from constant healing, Void is kind of just "delete everything and get health back from it," and Stasis is freezing everything so they cant hurt you. Arc just falls short of everything, because, like you said, the speed boost from amplified is almost impossible to notice, blinding is a worse version of freeze, suppression, and suspension, and jolting is just the electric version of all of the other "AOE/explosion" keywords (ignitions, volatile, unravel, and shatter). Even Arc Souls, the original Warlock buddy, just feels worse than Hellion, Child of the Old Gods, Bleakwatcher, and threadlings. Again, it may sound like it, but im not shitting on you for liking Arc, youre free to have your own opinion, just listing my reasons for why i dont like it. I want to like it, and for it to be good, because i like Lightning Surge and the playstyle around it (and pairing it with Electrostatic Mind makes it better with all of the Ionic Traced feeding me so much melee energy), but the rest of the subclass just doesnt feel great.
@@viable3589 I don’t know, i’ve been able to make arc work well enough for aggressive play, but I will fully admit its so not meta, there are easier and better options out there. Strand like you say is basically everything arc warlock should be even thought its not even fully meant to be the speedblitz attack type class. Im also not convinced on your point with stasis. Especially post the final shape changes to stasis. I think stasislock has actually had its survivability nerfed since then. We’ve lost the intrinsic DR of that one fragment ‘stand near frozen thing to get DR’, in exchange for frost armour, which warlocks can’t even use cos they are forced to use bleakwatcher/iceflares for optimal builds. So stasislock has no survivability and I reckon bungie were talking out of their ass when they said ‘oh stasislock is in a fine place’ during that article they released detailing the changes pre final shape, I doubt anyone of the playtesters actually tried the new stasis on stasislock in high end PvE content or they’dve realised its gone from a mid at best subclass to actively bad Imo (Not that the DR from that one old fragment was amazing but it was something).
So yeah I like arc as its the best audio/visual designed class imo and I can see the potential of its gameplay loops. But its not like I was defending it too much, most of what I said if you read it was actually me bitching about how it needs improving, and how only the top echelon of arclocks can make the class work in higher content in particular.
You guys are so wrong about strand warlock lol. It’s got insane dps, insane cc and ad clear potential, a great super, works amazing with the new raid exotic, and the new exotic chest piece is busted asf with it. Strand warlock has multiple builds that are super strong.
Threadings are really good, unraveling rounds out the ass, woven mail, the infinite suspend build with necrotic grips and thorn/necrochasm, its synergy with the call etc.
Insane cc is an overstatement
@@vendexa5840 no it’s not. Nonstop suspending explosions everywhere, combined with a shit ton of threadlings and unraveling rounds etc. Best cc in the game outside of stasis. So NOT an overstatement
Song of flame is great as it is, mobile DR and doesn't do monster damage
I agree. I get through GMs with it just fine compared to pre nerfed well which players still could die in on a GM
Tbh I think nova bomb is better overall due to the awesome add clear warlock comes with especially with getaway artist
I play both prismatic titan and prismatic warlock and I don’t see how people can say one is stronger or weaker than the other in pve, they are both insane and their boss dps options are basically the same damage wise and yes titans average build requires rushing but with the builds you are taking way less damage and gaining health while up close, titans have less variety in their play style which is what most people are complaining about but it ends up with people saying it sucks when it really doesn’t, precision dps warlocks beat Titan most of the time, up close fights have titans beat warlocks most of the time, they are both good in their own regard with warlocks having a bit more variety but using that variety in play style will usually is worse while titans different builds are almost the same but all are nice. I know this is a pve video but in PvP prismatic warlock drops off, honestly other than arc, all the other subclasses seem more worth using and warlocks are the only ones in trials having prismatic not their top used subclass while titan prismatic is also being used more than prismatic warlock now too
If arc warlock got the season of the deep mod where you summon lightning storms that damage and jolt all targets anytime you get an arc ability or jolt kill, and they added the mod where you get damage resist while amplified, then arc warlock would be S+ IF it also got a damage buff to both supers also.
Even without super buffs it would be S tier with the new fragments and aspect. I hope they do that in the future.
That's a lot of "if". That's why it does not even belong in A tier, B at best and below void.
They seriously need to just give titan a strand gatling gun for their super... That was such a missed opportunity. Marksman hunter gets goldie, give the tank class a frickin A-10 warthog strand cannon or something! They need love bad.....and this is coming from me being a hunter main who has played my titan for probably all of 20 hours over the last 10 years
Abeyant Leap and Wishful Ignorance both push Banner Titan up imo. Abeyant giving long duration Woven Mail on each suspend gives insane uptime to go with Banner healing. Wishful gives much better brain off enjoyment on par with Bonk. Prismatic Titan definitely does Arc and Stasis Titan better with Knockout and Diamond Lance running Skullfort.
The issue with the argument that SoF isn't OP because it only makes one person invulnerable is ignorant to the fact that it not only makes everyone else significantly tankier (which stacks with their own power-crept tanky effects alongside healing turrets), it also gives huge damage at the same time. Well was broken before but what well didn't do was provide damage, only the tankiness, where as SoF gives tankiness alongside damage WHILE BEING ABLE TO MOVE!! It's also just so incredibly versatile with healing turrets, dawn chorus, and others. Truly unbelievably overpowered in my opinion.
Imo song of flame needs to do a little less damage, but needs to keep all the buffs it grants. It’s literally the old D1 support class, just brought up to modern terms.
However, I think every other roaming super that doesn’t provide team utility (so like all of em) should be able to do as much damage (if not more damage for the melee roaming supers) as song of flame currently does.
Roaming supers have been god awful (minus a very very select few) for a long while now. They should do much much more total damage in comparison to a one off super. Roaming supers tend to last too long for damage phases and have long cool downs.
Void Titan at b tier simply because peregrine’s. Swap out bastion for unbreakable to have a more consistent overshield and invest into getting your grenade back more. Bastion making your class ability timer 3 minutes is absurd.
Whirling Maelstrom alone makes strand hunter at least A. grapple canceling to make grapple points gives you infinite grapples. by far the funnest subclass to fly around the map
point is prism liarhandshake and solar on nighthawk are top tier for gm's 'n raid. and void is always safer for the newbies. but yea should probably be A tier
I feel like void hunter with omnioculus should be placed in the S+ alone by the fact that it can carry in most end-game PvE content as a solo player.
Hearing the news about the bungie layoffs has all but killed my desire to play destiny for the time being. Makes me real sad
It's just a game. Enjoy it while it's there, because we don't know what the future has in store for us.
Completely agree. The layoffs combined with the news about the future content has killed it for me.
Hasnt effected me in the slightest. The crappy battlegrounds and breach activities have though.
@@jacks1678completely agree. The game itself is just boring right now, don't care about the things happening over at Bungie.
Facet of Awakening is really good on prismatic for ionic traces
Love and agree with a lot of this however, my two disagreements are strand and stasis hunter. I agree there is nothing stasis has that can’t be done if not done better on prismatic, but I just feel like having the best of the stasis super, and exotics like renewal and bakris should push it to B tier. Bottom of B tier if you want but I look at C tier as “there is no reason to run this and also you are hurting yourself if you do” and while the first part is arguable the second simply is not. I’ve ran some of the tougher GM’s as stasis hunter and. It just because I could but because it was my preferred build. Strand hunter I would put on top of arc warlock but will accept as below it yet still in A tier. Great crowd control, great ad clear, good survivability. Strand hunter got me my first and most of my 50 onslaught clears as well as many GM completions. With all of this said, great list. Love your content. Just wanted to say my peace with my opinions.
Galvanic is 100% carrying prismatic Titan lol.
Bubble Titan since 2014. Through good and bad times.
Stasis Warlock on C??? Did everyone forget the Osmiomancy fever that has only gotten stronger and better ever since the exotic released or am I crazy? Also Arc Hunter def deserves A at least, Mactics is out here acting like he didn't make several videos on how Arc Assassin's Cowl was one of the best builds in the game. And also, Void Warlock is A at the very least for Briarbinds on their own
The issue with stasis warlock is that prismatic does everything stasis does but better especially with the right exotic class item
@@gokudrip6221 And that means that it's an automatic C tier?? Why not just put Void hunter in C tier as well since the only thing it does better than prismatic is longer invisibility for ONLY your teammates lmao
@@gokudrip6221 And no other subclass in the game is as adept at freezing entire rooms of enemies and champions as Stasis Warlock simply put
I agree with your take. Before prismatic void would have been probably A tier and stasis would have been B. In no world is stasis warlock comparable to stasis titan. Osmiomancy builds were great for harder content.
Prismatic being in the game outshines these older subclasses, but void lock is still amazing for solo content and should have been at least B tier. Above arc warlock and strand hunter imo. Stasis warlock is just under arc warlock to me.
27:56
What is salt on strand tian is amazing for day 1.
Has some of the best survability and team utility.
I used it for everything and was chillin most of the time.
The only part it wasnt the best was witness because of screebs and how witness dps works.
Otherwise though its amazing
I hate that they fail to mention how banner of war on top of the rest of the strand Titan kit) even after the nerfs is still arguably one of the best aspects in the game.
@@splintercell320 of course bro put that with the new exotic one wishful ignorance you can get melee energy when you health your allies with banner of war
I still think solar titan is a little better for day ones, as I can get one kill for a sunspot and just heal while focusing on mechanics rather than slaying out to keep banner up. I even have a get out of jail card with hammer of sol, which has solid ranged ad clear and healing.
But I will admit, strand titan does so much better in encounters where it is extremely ad dense. For example, I used strand titan for the first encounter of salvations edge and the third encounter on day one. Solar titan simply couldn’t kill fast enough. However, solar titan I found to be much better than strand on encounter 2 and 4 (although I couldn’t beat verity on day one), as the ad numbers are limited and I needed to focus on mechanics.
I really wish banner of war wasn’t disabled for my crota day one clear, but it is what it is. Solar titan is old reliable, and I switch to strand when it gets more ad dense.
i'm trying to switch from warlock main to titan main, and got a really good roll of Spirit of the Bear x Spirit of Scars. i get my super really fast (love the thermite glitch) and have a lot of survivability. i can clear the waves of psions and knights on SE 2nd encounter first, and make short work of the Centurion too.
would love to switch out some aspects still. i think the consecration melee is so good, but imagine if we had Howl of the Storm x 3 instead of Diamond Lance, which can arguably be gotten with that headpiece. it's good for PVP for sure, but it's just okay for PVE i think, unless you're soloing a GM and really need the stunlock.
If we had Roaring Flames and it stacked damage on all abilities that would be amazing. Banner of War would solve a lot of problems too. Roaring Flames x Banner of War would be so good with Inmost Light.
I think they locked in too hard on the solar slam, and have us double shackle with the class ability and with the shackle grenade.
your going to a loosing team 🤷
Song of Flame is definitely overtuned, but I think there's too much a focus on the DR it provides (which is a bit high even in GMs) and not enough on the damage it provides. Compared to Stormtrance or Winter's Wrath, it's like choosing between pre-nerf Well vs pre-buff Nova Cataclysm. You'd be _crazy_ to ever run any other roaming Warlock Super over SoF. Repeated Ignitions from SoF alone do more damage than everything else the other roaming Supers do.
I can see SoF getting a few more nerfs in the future, but at least the Ignition damage scaling nerf this week might help rein it in. It is a roaming Super after all and not great for boss damage, and since it really needs to shine when fighting lots of adds and dueling with Champions and minibosses, it needs to make you sufficiently tanky and ability spammy else it will remain underutilized like Stormtrance and Winter's Wrath.
Re: Power Creep, I 100% prefer the aggressive playstyles enabled with these TFS changes over sitting in a Well and plinking away with a primary on a durable target. That was so boring and I avoided GMs entirely because of it. Now, judging the power of these playstyles vs old content like Exodus Crash or Fallen SABER might not make sense, but doing so against Liminality does (and in this GM SoF isn't that busted).
Imo the damage of song of flame is fine, and every roaming super in the game should be able to put out the same numbers (if not higher for the ones that are melee based roaming supers).
Roaming supers have been bad as a whole (minus a very select few) for a long while now, and song of flame is a breath of fresh air to me.
Personally, I think roaming supers should do substantially more total damage than an instant pop super, as instant supers have faster cool downs and the damage is dealt very quickly, allowing for quick usage of weapons. This would also potentially allow you to run a roaming super in a boss encounter. It may not be optimal, but you wouldn’t be throwing anymore, and if you run out of heavy/special you will have a use case for the super.
@@Olgod2004 As someone who prefers ability spamming over relying heavily on guns I agree. I think the other roaming Supers are just really bad and need buffs in addition to anything Bungie does to SoF (which hopefully is minimal).
IMO, they need to buff every roaming super by 50% to 100% depending on the super (and even that might not be enough). They also need to add a boat load of subclass verbs to all roaming supers that dont have it.
AND THEN, introduce new exotics that vastly improve the supers up time and effects (we already have some, but many of them dont do enough). They also need to add a boat load of subclass verbs to all roaming supers that dont have it.
IMO, i know that celestial nighthawk golden gun is a one off super, but im going to use this as an example. EVERY exotic that has a focus around a super ability needs to provide the same level of benefit that celestial nighthawk provides to golden gun. I think pyrogale is the closest one to it. (I could argue star eaters, but really its not an exotic that is specific to any super)
By same level, I mean it improves neutral game or super up time, while drastically improving the super itself. This is why skull of dire on warlock is bad. It doesnt improve the actual nova bomb. All it does is increase up time.
Strand prismatic titan with shield throw/contact is a nice way to gain overshield/woven and jolt enemies.
Mactics the only one who knows what hes talking baout the majority of the time for the majority of content lol
I love song of flame its great in gms and master dungeons or champions and the scorch with microcasm
I miss season of the deep so much man I love arc so much
Which class? Because I feel like arc titan is arguably the worst subclass in the game in pve at current
@shadowsa2b warlock my beloved. Arclock season of the deep was just sumn special
Don't know why I watched this, since it isn't like I'd be playing anything but my prismatic hunter for the time being. Just sucks that I have to use the golden gun to get my orbs, or miss kinetic to get the stasis-thing. Maybe I'll change to void once I get the class item with gyrfalcon I'd want.
Kinda want to do a lucky pants build also again.
Can you make a video where you have the beta build for EACH subclass ranked. Also a build for each prismatic super?
Strand warlock, i agree not S tier, but A. I wonder why nobody talked about the strand poison thorn build, as i consider that more powerful/allround than the very niche DPS builds.
For me the new exotic chest piece with wishkeeper is really good. Ive solo'ed a GM on thorn poison strand in the past. But I agree, it is good, but not meta defining or anything. For me the main reason it does not belong in S tier, is the survivability. (Compared to devour, restoration etc)
Saltagreppo is the ultimate elitist when it comes to Destiny, his opinion isn't going to be valid for 80% of the player base. Mactics understands a little more that not everyone is a day 1 raider or chasing master challenges.
I thought above and his takes were the worst. As a titan main, I actually agreed with salts takes on the Titan class for most of the video.
Above kept saying how prismatic Titan has crazy damage resist. But this assumes you have this seasons artifact mod (which isn’t permanent), and you are running the strand Titan super, which most people are not doing as there are better supers.
Salt really didn’t have too many bad takes in this video. I thought above was riding some subclasses too much. Salt was right putting solar titan in S tier. It’s not fancy, but it works really consistently in most content.
I think strand titan doesn't get enough credit, and void hunter just isn't very valid after the release of prismatic. Still good, but prismatic gets a better melee, a dps super option, can manage a gyrfalcon's+galanor which is basically just orpheus and gyrfalcon's at the same time.
Salt is a huge hypocrite. He has no problem with Song of Flame literally making you invincible and unkillable. But he had a huge problem with Well of Radiance being strong. The duality of it is remarkable, and Bungie needs to stop listening to him. "Well is too strong in team play" yet people will just run 3 Song of Flame Warlocks and clear GMs with ease lol.
I’d argue stasis titan is B tier, arc hunter is A tier, prismatic titan is A tier. Without concentration or knockout it’s trash.
Stasis titan is useless and the worst class in the game
@@SlongestKongestworst class is arc titan. Stasis titan has some utility and is great for ad clear/survival
@@SlongestKongeststasis titan is so slept on. I have an absolute blast playing stasis. Hoarfrost and verglas curve gives me infinite frost armor, infinite shatters, infinite ability regeneration
@@gigaxpudding7500 thanks everyone who is taking up for stasis titan I have the top ad clear stasis Titan build if anyone wants to try it, I can pretty much solo all legend onslaught
@@SlongestKongest 🤡
Id argue that arc hunter should move to A. Void warlock to C. Stasis hunter and stasis warlock to B at least.
Void Warlock is miles clear of stasis, run Contraverse or Briarbinds and your set for any GM
NO
Stasis hunter is S+ in my opinion but only because shatter dive skating
Prismatic warlock can literally do the good parts of stasis warlock but better cuz it has devour, and stasis hunter also is easily replaced by prismatic as it just has the good parts
Stasis warlock above void warlock is crazy. Verity, briar, contraverse
Strand Warlock in my opinion is great at add clear but okay at damage
Spirit of inmost light and spirit of contact is absolutely OP
I think they are wrong about strand warlock being better than the same strand/euphony build on prismatic.
That build is so much better on prismatic for survivability. Sure you don't have thead of evolution but spamming threadlings with weavers call, threadling grenades, swarmers and euphony is enough. On prismatic you can survive with devour and woven mail from facet of purpose instead of only 5 seconds woven mail from thread of warding on strand.
In the end both are fun but bad for GMs or Master level content. At best you can use it in master lost sectors but since linears are not in the artifact mods, champion stunning becomes a problem because you only have threadling spam. You can get anti-barrier from the radiant orbs artifact mod but that's it.
Strand warlock is definitely B tier. The same build on prismatic warlock is A tier.
Returning from Lightfall - Season of the Wish Question: What happened to Solar Hunter to improve it's survivability? Because I remember running T3 Alters of Summoning with Solar Hunter and it was too squishy. Do able with a competent team but nowhere S++.
Absolutely nothing happened. That's all.
Bringing in one of the most unliked narrow viewed elitist hypocrite players for a tier list is just wild.
is it the guy with an accent who sounds like hes a parody of himself?
@@Evilskyworshippersyup
I would say an *enormous* amount of Prismatic Hunter's survivability/utility is grounded in some of the disgusting class item rolls, and that now, I think Prismatic would be near-as survivable, with the perfect setup. Plus some of the offensive combos are ridiculous.
Also, the whole song of flame discussion being not about the super, but about how much we're in an offensive meta now XD
Strand warlock is a speedrunning thing. You don't use it in the wild. You use it when you know exactly wtf is going on, so no one looking at a tier list for anything other than a laugh is going to meaningfully defend wherever you put it XD
Also, Briarbinds. Void Soul is not on Prismatic, and with the essentially infinite duration, it's actually kinda stupid.
To the point around 27:00 - Im sure I'm missing things on prismatic, sure. Having said that, I'm able to do what I want with the builds I like to play and don't care about other things. Not everything needs to be the ultimate day 1 contest raid build.
You clearly missed the point of this tier list. This is for effectiveness, not fun
@@elito7023Then why did he even make the point at 27 minutes there Mr. condescending?
Throwing hammer is not on prismatic, they’re buffing hammer of sol overall, prismatic, solar, sunspot or no sunspot.
For what it’s worth, I like consecration with into the fray and drangyr’s lash
Some subclasses have always been useless, like Stormcaller, no electrostatic mind from D1, melee range nerf, super is weak, difficult to chain lightning, chaos reach is bad now, you can't use it to heal or provide DR...so what's the point
I hate that arc Titan has been nerfed into the ground after hoil nerfs. Thundercrash has fallen in super dps. It needs a buff, damage and consistency. I want to direct impact my target, not slide past them like they’re coated in butter.
I was wondering, since The Final Shape came out, how is Loreley Splendor looking? Is it worth running now?
If you are into end game content, I wouldn’t bother. Synthoceps is much better on solar than Lorely. And synthoceps are the main exotic people use on strand, and even sometimes prismatic.
However, if you are a new player or just starting to get into raids/dungeons, Lorely is a reliable option as an exotic for staying alive and learning how to do endgame activities.
I wouldn’t get stuck in Loreley though. It’s good for new players, but it’s a B tier exotic at best, as it doesn’t do as well in end game content.
The issue with titans is that they have very little synergy across aspects and void titan in particular is dogshit because it relies on a dogshit mechanic (overshields). Plus the titan class ability is beyond useless (all three)
Useless is a strong opinion. I seen people easily solo grand masters with prismatic titans. I will agree that the class doesn’t have the ease of use or variety that the hunter and warlock has for endgame
It doesn’t rely on overshield at all lol. Void titan is extremely good rn after the buffs and with the new super. Sure, you CAN make a build that depends on it, but there’s multiple really good builds in it that focuses on weakening and/or spreading volatile everywhere no overshield required. The overshield is just a bonus.
@@hatchell18 WTF are you smoking? Buffs? What? The only thing void titans got was a solid super, but that is better taken advantage of on prismatic than pure void. The rest of void titan's kit literally relies solely on overshields unless you go unbreakable which is without a doubt the worst aspect in the game....
@@CHosey219 no it literally does not lol. I have multiple builds that don’t give af about OS at all. And they’re end game viable. So you have no clue what you’re talking about sorry.
The only void titan game changing “buff” was actually a nerf to bubble.
With that being said, void titan with controlled demo and a void weapon like graviton or a void machine gun slaps in end game content and I’m surprised void titan gets so much hate.
It’s more of a “meh” subclass. Over shield builds suck, which kinda is annoying considering how titans should be the king of overshields. But controlled demo and volatile is carrying it hard.
I am warlock main but use every class for bounties etc. I have 2 warlock builds both prismatic granade turret spam with geomancy gloves and other with maradoxia i can take those to gm no problem.
With titan for easier content i like strand severance envlosure. For hunter i have nothing lol
Jeez editors cutting out every single gap in speech for three hours. Insane.
Non-prismatic subclasses just don’t feel the same anymore.
On top of that, the best builds are based on the usage of exotic class items, which not everyone has access to. In my opinion, Bungie messed up!
I use my Getaway Artist over anything in Prismatic Warlock.
No offense meant but I do think you should use stasis warlock more and experiment with it more because it isn't just stasis turret, my first and only solo GM was a coldsnap spam setup using stasis warlock
The problem is the game is tuned so badly that you are forced to get 90% DR to be able to play a GM. If we didn't have a Well, then we would get wiped. The blast radius, frequency of hits, amount of damage are absurd. A Boomer Knight can 1 shot you even if you are in cover because of splash and element burns
No you wouldn't lol just take cover
@@SlongestKongest You missed where I said that the splash damage causes problems. You'll be 1 shot if lucky from the first blast and pushed round a corner to have a screeb push you and blow up
D2 casuals when they can't tank something that's supposed to kill you pretty much instantly
@@elito7023 huh!? What point are you trying to make?
Dawg you don’t need well or song of flame to clear any GMs. I often don’t even take advantage of damage resist. They are nice, yeah, but I’ve done GMs with no warlocks soooo many times.
With that being said, they should nerf the amount of damage we take at base, and then nerf damage resist along side it. That way non damage resist builds feel better, and damage resist builds feel the same.
Holy shit Mactics!
I think the chromatic subclasses (single element) are a few buffs away from being just as good as prismatic, but only if transcendence is nerfed. the fact that it refunds your cooldowns for free is too strong in the neutral game to not take. (obviously this isn't taking into account optimal damage because at that point things like star eater class items massively tip the scales)
Not wanting to diminish the work of streamers, without you guys, all this great knowledge would be very limited
However, in my opinion, you guys speak as if all Destiny players play impeccably like you
For most players, even with these broken builds, content like raids and Grandmasters are very challenging and it will be borderline impossible without overpowered abilities
Personally, I don’t think good game design should allow players that are not skilled enough to play end game content an easy free clear of an activity due to broken abilities. There are many tiers of content. Players need to play the lower level nightfalls and develop better builds and skills to ultimately attempt and clear a GM. This goes for raids to master raids, or dungeons to master dungeons as well. Designing end game content in any game around people that aren’t skilled enough to beat them in the first place is horrible design. This applies to destiny as well.
However, with how newer content is being designed (like the newest raid or GM in final shape), these abilities aren’t as busted as streamers make them out to be. In fact, I’d argue the strongest abilities in the game are decently tuned for even solid players to get a clear of a GM. Playing in the back with a scout rifle like we used to do 2 or 3 years ago is not good game design, and I’m glad builds are finally allowing somewhat aggressive play.
@@Olgod2004Destiny is always at its best when it's broken, look at all those 'this is Broken' build videos, that's what most people want to play
@@MagnodeCastro yup. stuff being a little over tuned or new metas emerging keep the game alive.
Song of flame is fine. Let warlocks cook. (Hunter main)
Number 1 thing about arc hunter is gathering storm
Throwing hammer is not an option on prismatic. It’s hammer strike.
I still can’t believe people completely wrote off hammer strike- melting point as an ability. I will forever miss the 30% debuff titan melee. Flying kick into a boss then unload everything. 😭
I took getaway artist prismatic warlock into gm with no mods for build or weapon matching the surge and it was the easiest gm i've done. WARLOCK MASTER RACE!!!
Casual fanbase is practically non-existent in this vid
Arc hunger and strand hunter are crazy good! Both easy S
The warlock bias is strong in this video lmaoo
i got distracted and heard mac say "buff devour and invis. they are useless now". Bout damn near snapped my neck looking back and saying "wtf did he just say" and had to rewind to make sure i wasn't misunderstanding................ thank got i misunderstood the first time lol
I don't agree for arc warlock. Without artifact, it has nothing for it, no survivabilty, same energy regeneration than solar and void (benevolence / devour and other things), worst supers...
I'm a returning player. Is there a doc where I can find the builds discussed here?
Tangle whirlybirds alone makes Strand Hunter B tier at minimum.
There ain't no world where arc warlock is that high.
Behemoths only strength is the power of friendship. Stack 3 to 6 behemoths together with hoarfrost z and watch your fps drop to 0😂 it's not practical by any means but it works and dear lord is it fun lol
This list just proves how the stasis update did literally nothing to fix the class. Still by far the worst class overall with really nothing unique to offer