The combination of Max as a RL/Melee DPS, Dratnos as Tank and Twicks as a healer, talking about their perspective view of the raid was the best decision for this kind of video.
Max was overly reasonable in my opinion, some of his points were very self-oriented and not at all meaningful in the broader raid-wide progression interest, "priest does nothing in this mechanic", "evoker just carries you there". Does help with perspective though, on how differently they see fights, even if they're not looking at the same things sometimes.
@@raulrsj20but is it good design if 1/12th of the classes are completely useless? I don't know the exact split, but if 1/12th of the player base cannot properly play the class due to fight design, that seems pretty bad.
Of course they see it differently. Max's guild kills an essentially untested boss, and by doing that provides the feedback Blizz needs to fix the bosses, and that version of the boss is the one Twicks sees.
Adding twicks and Max raiding in an alt guild definitely improves the perspective of these videos. I do wish there would be more brief mentions of how these bosses are on normal/heroic like y’all did on Razageth.
from a heroic perspective Raz was the best fight in the raid and felt the most fulfilling to kill. I never felt like it was a given that she was gonna die unless we were on our game. I hated kurog though. The add phase was such an annoyance to me. I would have rather just went around the room and played each phase and then maybe had a final phase of some sort.
@@LimitMaximum What I really dislike about heroic Rasza is the fact that it's so poorly balanced for very small groups. For smaller guilds, it's unreasonably hard to kill Rasza, unless you invite a bunch of pugs. But good luck trying to progress on HC Rasza with pugs, where people will leave after 2 wipes. Combined with the fact that the boss drops only shitty loot if you're not a hunter, some guilds spend more time looking for people in the group finder than they are actually trying to progress/learn the boss.
@@Neescherful How is it harder with less people? So many of the mechanics become exponentially harder with more people as there are proximity based mechanics. I progged with some friends as a 10 man in heroic and a lot of us had done PUGs and we all thought it was much easier as 10.
@@Defenestrationed It might be completely different at the level you're playing at. But playing with a lower group has several major disadvantages: - Every mistake counts. Somebody fucks up in a 10-man raid, you NEED to res them. You can't afford to be one man down, which in a 20-30 size raid group, you can totally make up for. - You have WAY less healing cooldowns. - In addition to that, you have way less "automatic" healing, ie. hots that are rolling anyway, stuff like healing rain, big aoe heals, etc... (that's why you'll NEVER be able to get good healing logs on 10man). - You have less externals, less CC and less interrupts. CC and interrupt may not be as impactful in Rasz as in other encounters, but even in Rasz some classes/specs have a way easier time dealing with spark than others, so depending on group setup will factor in. - You're much more likely to not have an optimal group setup, and will be missing some buffs. Even if you try to optimize, you can't squeeze everything in, but more importantly, most groups/guilds that are raiding in smaller groups, will "bring the player, not the class", so it's even more likely you don't have some major buffs like int/stam/ap/motw. - Healer range. If you only have 2 healers, in a big room like Dathea/Rasz, even non-Evoker healers will sometimes be out of range of several people, and sometimes both healers will be out of range. - Whenever a dps has to do mechanics and stop dps for a while, a much larger percentage of dps will be lost. If 3 out of 6 dps have to move away from the boss, it's much more impactful than if 3 out of 14 dps have to. - I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think(?) the combat res cooldown scales down with group size? Sure you have more people, so you should get more BRs with a bigger group size, but see point 1, not everybody needs an immediate res in big groups. - Individual skill and individual weaknesses are much more impactful on lower raid sizes than bigger ones. On bigger raids it's no problem to have 1-2 undergeared or bad players, if you have others that make up for it. In 10man it really shows, and paired with the fact that there's just less healing in 10man, means you really notice those undergeared people because they have less hp. Lesser skilled players might die more often, and again, this is a bigger problem in smaller groups than in bigger ones. I agree, if all players in the group are about equally skilled and geared (and adequately skilled), the difference isn't that big, and on some fights 10man might actually be easier. But in reality, many groups want to raid with smaller groups *because* they want to raid with their friends and their guildmates, and that will result in discrepancies in player skill/gear, and in non-optimal group compositions. You might say "these groups then don't deserve to kill HC Rasza", and you might even be right. But it's not necessarily a skill or gear issue, because I know from experience, and from semi-pugging Rasza quite a bit, that if you invite more people, it gets easier even if they have the same gear/skill/damage/healing. The hard part is getting people to stay and learn the fight, instead of leaving after 2 attempts because they expected a free carry. My guild tried to 10man Rasza and we found it much MUCH harder than even just 2/3/9, and when we finally killed him, it's not like the pugs carried us. Just having a 3rd healer helps so much with having ppl in range and having more healing CDs, that the fact the pug healer did less numbers than the 2 guild healers, didn't really matter. Most of the things I said aren't exclusive to Rasza, but generally apply to small vs big raid groups, but the difficulty spike from penultimate boss to last boss is in my opinion much higher than it was in Nathria and Sanctum (I didn't raid Sepulcher, so I don't know about Jailor difficulty). In my opinion bigger raid size helps a lot on bosses like Kurog (more incidental healing, more diverse healing (spot/group healing), less dps have to run and lose dps to mechanics) and Diurna (in big groups easier to build good add group, less dps lost on ppl doing eggs, more interrupts for add group), but those bosses are 10x easier than Rasza. These are just my personal experiences, and they might not apply to everybody.
Polite, knowledgeable people sharing opinions without attacking each other. Great combination of perspectives - would be great to get a healer main in next raid too! Brilliant video.
another shoutout to Dratnos on the "thinking before he speaks" comment. He gives criticism in a very organized manner, without tarnishing any dev's hard work.
It's really hard to convince the group to just pair with the closest same-charge buddy for Stormsurge when there's one loud voice who demands everyone stacks so they can get their big big healing breaths off across both stacks for the unspoken parse. *cough* evokers *cough* *cough* In heroic, our longest hurdle was getting people to stop standing in breaths/getting blown off the platform in P1, but the actual hard wall was Stormsurge. We still managed to get through it with the pug stacking method, but it took awhile. There were small personal things people did that we had to work through-- some DH's were saving their Meta's for the following intermission to try and stun the small ads more easily, instead of opting for having it up during Lust on 2nd Surge. Once things like that got ironed out, it took a week of gear upgrades before (like you said) only 3-5 times reaching final phase to clear it. That said, Heroic Raz was great for the reasons you gave. Overall, Raz, Terros and Brood were the only fights I thoroughly enjoyed in the raid. Brood would have been S for me if we didn't have so much dps downtike while running across the room to reach another spawn. As Havoc, I had it easy with endless dashing+double-jump-boosting, but it still made the fight feel slower than it needed to be. Eranog was an A, but not because he was thoroughly enjoyable. He was a good first 1st boss. I actually enjoyed Sennarth, but only because I'm Havoc. Gossamer Pull was never an issue. Yeeting at mach 12 across the ice twice sucked in a way, but, being Havoc, it felt cool to recover by just changing direction and landing on the lower platform, managing to get back up in time without dying for final dps (Havoc DH jumping/speedrun minigame). Rest of your ranks I agree with. Would have liked the bosses to have better/cooler writing, and for Raz to be way less of a cliche villain with her voice lines, but hey, it's retail. xD
same, worse fight i have ever healed. I stay calm during raid but, I was so angry doing this as a priest. It just felt so bad to heal, I could write a long essay on what was wrong from a healers perspective.
One thing I really enjoyed about Kurog was that you got to progress through 5 very unique and distinct phases that all had different mechanics, different kind of required dps profiles, etc. We usually only ever get that many different phases on a final boss. This meant that while we were progress Kurog, it really felt like actual progress where with each pull, you would improve a bit, got into a new phase, learned something new, etc. Unlike bosses like say Terros which was great, but where after you had gotten him to like 80% health you had essentially seen the entire fight and now it was all about proper execution.
As a healer, I am so happy twicks is out here speaking facts! Dathea is my least favorite mythic fight, as a healer, since 8.3 when I started playing. It is the bottom of swamp tier and nothing is even close imo. I hard considered quitting mid raid for the first time ever, I hated this fight so much (priest fyi).
I already despise Dathea as a dk dps, where you can ignore half the mechanics, because the remaining mechanics are such a pain in the arse too. Dps on the add is one of these that is rather tightly timed, you need it down before the debuffs go out but also after the adds spawn which means running halfway across the room dodging whirlwinds if the spawn is bad. Those whirlwinds are dogshit in general I don't see them adding anything to the fight but frustration since you sometimes can't tell which path they're taking. And having done this on heroic as a caster alt I can imagine just how bad cyclone is as a non dk.
He basically just complained anytime a fight was more about mechanics over just being able to heal the entire time...Not every fight has to be like terros with big damage incoming with everyone nonstop stacked with simple movement mechanics so it's easy to just pump heals. Sometimes it can be fun with a challenge like Sennarth or Dathea.
I'm in a low-tier guild full of mostly older Millennials with kids, families, jobs. Folks have varying amount of time to devote to the game; varying skill levels; and it's been interesting to see the game from this perspective. IMO, the big issues with raiding come down to two things: First, loot. You touched on the fact that some bosses drop nothing valuable. That's true. But I think raids would benefit from just a lot more loot dropping. We have issues gearing up our members, as some just don't have the time or interest in grinding out M+. It takes us weeks to get everyone up to Normal quality. IMO, if you raid 7 hours per week, after a month you should expect to have a full set of gear from raid. Second, Raz was a huge spike in difficulty relative to its drops (unless you were a hunter). It was a 100 pull boss for us, and we had to drop a lot of our lower performing members, plus spend a few weeks farming high level M+ vault slots and Mythic Eranog/Council, to get there. It stopped being fun at that point. Like, IMO, Mythic should be where the 100+ pulls bosses live. You know you're signing up for an unrewarding grind there.
If there's issues gearing the raid why don't people run Mythic+ ? I never thought loot drops was a issue, tons of loot drops. I do agree about Heroic Raz, felt much more "mythic" in a lot of ways..very rough boss.
One good thing about the last phase of Raszageth being easier than earlier phases is that you don't spend as many pulls wiping in the last phase, which is oftentimes a longer fight so you spend less time pulling in total even though the pull count may have been relative to an equally difficult boss.
@@okbucket I think it's less about the last phase having to be the hardest part of the fight, and more that the last phase of Rasz didn't hit the mark of it's intended design. The design intention was clearly to have this Epic final phase with the room shrinking, ramping up the pressure and delivering that moment of most Guilds first kill being in the last seconds. However because of how the other phases are designed, and the nerfs they did to the last phase. You end up with a situation where most of progression is in P1 and I1, then P2 is figure out shields, then I2 and when you get through I2 clean for the first time with everyone you're getting the kill. Except the visual design of the end of I2 is literally the calm before the storm. You get to sit around and wait to get pushed back. Then factor in that in Mythic P1, your melee and specs with movement have no problem with the pushback, and your Priests and Paladins had to be literally carried through. Means that, through no fault of their own, as a raid you're not progressing evenly. More than half of the raid is waiting for the Evoker rescue operation to learn P1. And if it ever fails while progging a further phase it's a wipe and you have to go again.
As a regular AOTC player, that barely ever has done Mythic prog: Raz was/is one of my fav ever fights. Very intense fight but once you have it "solved" it's just such a rush of good feelings :D
Having that one guy with a more "casual" mindset was very good, I could relate more to his point of views than those of Max etc (just because I don't play at that lvl). Very interesting to see the differents points of view though.
Thank you for getting Twix in here. Pretty much everything he said represents those of us not in top 1000 CE guilds. Whenever I watch videos like this, I always wish you had someone saying what he was saying. Thanks for that
@40:35 This is a phenomenal idea. I would LOVE a team-based proving ground where 4-5 raid healers can hop in and practice healing 15-16 friendly NPC’s through raid damage, especially if they made it fight specific (and let you select the boss and difficulty setting).
My list (from the perspective of a normal/lfr casual Raider 1. Broodkeeper 2. Razsageth 3. Terros 4. Primal Council 5. Kurog 6. Eranog 7. Sennarth 8. Dathea Explanations: Dathea: One of the worst bosses in wow ever, annoying but not in a fun way, and a ridiculous difficulty jump between lfr and normal (which I know is normally the case but it’s an even bigger jump here). Sennarth: Neat idea, but moving while dps isn’t ever fun (unless you’re halondrus) Eranog: A good first boss, but I think it’s way too easy (again from a normal/lfr perspective, casual fun wow gamer). As far as first bosses go, I thought it was good enough, but I prefer shriekwing and Sivara. Kurog: Honestly a fight I thought was fun but flawed. I don’t hate but I don’t love it (I was hoping to love it after I heard the name from the name grimtotem) Primal Council: the fact this was compared to prototype pantheon was a damn crime, so much better than that in every way possible. The chaos is the reason I like it, it forces people to focus on what they’re doing (and plus with 10 people it isn’t nearly as chaotic as with 20 or more). I enjoy this fight because it spikes my adrenaline. Terros: I used to hate this boss, because pug groups could never do the dps check when it first came out. After it became easier and easier, I think it’s pretty fun. Razsageth: progression for me on the boss was fun (prob because I was on normal) and I think it’s a pretty good final boss. Interesting mechanics, but the intermissions were really annoying. If anything, this boss is a definite improvement over the jailer and sylvanas, so it works fine with me. Broodkeeper: I always ran adds on this fight, and like with primal council, I love how chaotic it is. I also am a huge fan of razorgore, so the sendback was really nice. This is just a fight I really enjoy, and while it is similar to SLG and Kelthuzad, it’s the best version of what those fights tried to be ( and honestly I never hated SLG but I definitely hated Kelthuzad) As my opinion may not count because I am super hyper casual who now prefers m+ to raiding, I hope anyone who read this understands my POV.
When progressing HC Broodkeeper with my hc guild we didn't follow a guide with the eggs, figuring out the route to take the boss, which eggs (and how many) to kill plus keeping communication with the players on the adds so that they weren't in range of the boss all added to making it one of the most enjoyable fights this tier.
Eranog is probably my favourite opening boss of all time. Some expansions are a lil difficult to say "which boss" is the opening boss - BC, wrath & cata specifically - fortunately they don't have particularly strong contenders. "Maybe" magtheridon, at least relative to its time. Maybe sartharion, with hardmode options with extra drakes. "Recent" expansions we've got stone guards/dogs from Mogu'shan Vaults. Average. Bladefist in Highmaul, great. Probably would've been my choice prior to eggnog. Emerald nightmare first dragon, well, the fact that I can't even remotely remember its name probably says more than anything else. Then there's Taloc from BFA. Elevator boss made into actual boss. I would be much fonder of this fight, purely for its uniqueness if nothing else, if it weren't for Khor, Hammer of the [Corrupted] Guardian. Overall, an incredibly minor thing, but genuinely stands out to me as one of Blizzard's (at least in regards to wow) dumbest decisions, ever. "Oh that weapon you got day 1? Yeah, that's a cosmetic now. Woopsy, enjoy your .7 DPS. Oh you don't like that, well we'll fix it for the people who got screwed over... then remove the item from them towards the end of the expansion because reasons"
On Dathea as a resto druid you could cast tranq and get sucked into the middle but it didnt knock you up thanks to the inner peace talent, once I figured that out, the fight felt so much better
Twicks had some really good takes, Dathea might be the worst healer fight in the raid, but also worse than any boss in other raids for a few years. On top of the movement during the big healing and spreading being atrocious, the cyclones are under 1.30min apart, which doesn't fit any healer cds. On top of that on prog for mid tier guilds its a 5 heal fight with 3-4 platforms. Some healers just have to stay down which makes the boss giga boring.
58:30 But if that were so, why would people like Gul'dan or Garrosh? I mean, surely it is a factor that pulls the boss down, but a deciding one? Idk...
I have to say, watching all these fights from a ranged POV is completely different from melee (which I play). It is absolute chaos and mayhem in melee and the ranged are just chilling in the back.
As I have both outside raid lead my AOTC guild group and have pugged the entire thing myself to get AOTC, I think that the Ras fight is an absolute banger. Even if you think you got it, one mistake is all it takes to just end the pull.
On the storm shield, my guild had the raid spread out around the boss, all reds immediately collapse to the center and the blue people to just form several clumps of people around the boss.
12:05 the point about marks, all they need to do is maybe make it fewer people and then make it to where when you do hit a pillar you get a short immunity. Maybe make the tanks be immune entirely, idk. Not perfect but certainly would’ve been a bit better.
Great analysis, but I would've loved to have more input from either more casual players or at least focus more on the heroic/normal version of the fights. I am a CE raider myself and obviously spent most time in mythic, but I understand that for some fights like Dathea, Kurog and Rasz the heroic version is vastly different. And for a large majority of players, that's all they ever get to see. For example, I agree that Dathea is swamp on mythic, but it was way more enjoyable on heroic. So maybe next time don't have three World top 25 raiders discuss, that all have somewhat identical views, but also include someone who can give input from a more casual perspective.
What nameplate addon do you have and is it possible I could get the set up for it? I've seen those friendly nameplates before and I love it and want them myself.
Having progressed this boss now I kinda agree, as a race to world last guild we found in particular that the fight got easier and the only thing that was difficult was literally just having substandard healers. If you had healers that can actually press your healing buttons then p2 intermission and p3 are so easy
I personally enjoyed sennarth a lot but it was swamp ass as a raid boss. It had shitty bugs that just hit a certain subset of players who use certain keybinds, the little spiders were a useless mechanic no one ever utilized. Slows and ice have no fun factor (but I do appreciate the creativity). With some bug fixes (camera especially) and if tornados were predictable (either in spawn on when they’re gonna stop and reverse) this could’ve been a much better boss
Honestly the council boss in Vault, from JUST an AoTC raider who has done it as dps and healer I genuinely love this boss. The mechanics are simple enough, it's glorified rock paper scissors. The counter intuitive this with pillars needed for lightning but you want to remove them with fire is not too bad since new pillars nearly always come back before the next lightning. The last council fight I like more than this is the hellfire citadel council. The fact that the mechanics can't really tell people "Just go here with X" The dance of it you have to adapt a bit more based on where things are which feels good.
Only a heroic raid civilian here but as one... Dathea was the worst boss by a lot for most of my guild. Kurog would have been terrible as well if it weren't for an amazing cheesy strat existing, but probably still would have been less terrible. Only great thing about Dathea was that the runback basically didn't exist, which should be the case on all bosses tbh. It's awful to do the runback in WoW raids.
Primal Council always feels like a shitshow and I can’t tell if I love or hate it. Even when the pull is going well it feels like half a second from falling apart, which is cool compared to other bosses that feel free on normal and heroic but also maybe is just bad design that it’s so chaotic? Idk
As someone that mains melee, I’m leaning more towards hate. The lightning mechanic is just too annoying in my opinion. Especially being punished for someone else’s bad positioning/pathing.
Funny how difficulty, role and execution make such a diference in opinion. As someone that only do heroic for atoc and play as a healer, I find that kurog and raz are really cool bosses. Also, healing diurna and doing the staff mechanic at the same time was funny, specially when you have less healers than you should lol They're probably my favorite bosses of this raid, along with terros
The biggest issue with making your average encounters more complicated is that it just makes it nearly impossible to get a guild together to do the content. There are VERY few guilds per server that will ever get 7/8 let alone 8/8 per server, and most of them already have their core group that has been there for the last 3 expansions.
Rasza Mythic is actually a good boss. Lot of things to do, adds, movement, position, cc, dps buffs. Not hard things to do but lot of thing. For me the only problem that matter is how long it takes.
i had to play priest healer as well this tier and i 100% agree with everything twicks said. kurog was by far the most fun boss this tier. and i have the same assessment about boss order as max. if they swapped the order the raid would have been so so much better
Kind of interesting how "damage done to adds" is kind of almost a kind of reward that needs to be balanced. When there is even a discussion over the pad on adds, I think that's interesting.
As a DPS Evoker player, I LOVE Sennarth. Hover pretty much removes most of the issues I would have with the fight. Granted, I've not done the fight on mythic, so I don't know how that feels. Despite that tho, heroic is a blast for me.
1:03:08 Disagree because teamwork is cool and fun. There are alot of fights where you solely rely on your teammates to save you. Basically everytime a roar is required you also are "getting carried" by your druid teammate, whats the difference. Every Dome of Light a teammate drops and you need to stand in is also just a priest carrying you.
So happy twicks was here pushing back against dratnos and max's takes. In a 7/8 M guild progging raz I found myself constantly agreeing with what he said and dear god even with multiple kills on dathea, I would put it in giga swamp.
Dathea was so punishing for a "casual" CE guild. If you don't have good (as in world 100) coordination or a good raid lead that can call out marks on the spot, then one wrong mark = wipe. Such an annoying boss. Also the cyclone sucked big time, whether you were a healer, a range or a melee. And the add which you had to have perfect kill timing on - if you killed it too early people wouldn't reach the platform, if you killled it too late you had marks on the platform...
Man this got me thinking imagine they combined Kurog and Council. Kurog has the normal 4 elemental quadrants stacking respective ability strength for time in quadrant. Then the add phase was literally primal council and you split raid into two groups. Fire and ice and have to stay in their half and they only have blizzard meteor axe and other half is pillar conduits. Would've been really sick I think.
Holy Twicks is a Debbie downer where he just doesn't need to be. "Well I dont like it because of this one thing healers have to do and I'm not thinking any further than that"
I wish Sennarth was more like a horror movie monster: it should do scary stuff rather than slowly ascend the room. Specifically, I wish Sennarth summoned like 1000 tiny spiders during the fight. I mean, I would scream at the top of my lungs, but it would have been way cooler
At the end of the day, whether it's fun or not is what matters. That's why chat says swamp for Sennarth and Dathea. That's why people wanted to rate Kurog high. Theoretical design is cool and all but if it's fun, who really cares?
We are 3/8m currently and working on Sennarth... We only killed Terros because we chose to destroy all pillars in one go during p1-p3 and split pillars in p4. Destroying all pillars should be the default strat in Mythic no matter what level of guild you are in. We also have 2-3 resto druids.
For heroic progress, rasz was quite fun. for pugging, i've never seen an endboss where everyone just wordlessly agrees that a full clear means you kill up to Broodkeeper and leave. Don't even have to ask, because of how much of a shitshow it is. I only did EP, Nyalotha and CN before this raid but in all of those I remember looking forward to getting in pug groups to kill endboss. In this raid the group just disbands.
I think they should have switched terros with kurog. So when you do your 2 mythic bosses for vault you have the choice of council or kurog for the second boss for different loot. As a tank, because of how hard broodkeeper slaps she definitely feels like a late raid boss. Terros is not a bad fight. The loot is just meh. But moving him later in the raid would bump up the ilvl of his drops which kinda makes up for them being bad. And you could totally skip him later in the season still and go right up the middle once you get the staff pieces from broodkeeper.
I really like this format! If you plan to do this again, I'd like to see an explicit breakdown of Bosses on NHC, HC, and Mythic. My guild raids casually and we had lots of fun raiding on NHC and HC and I found myself kind of surprised to see that so many bosses seem not be that great on mythic.
I really liked Council. Easy, but fun. Would have loved to see it as a penultimate fight, with each elements having an interaction with each othe element
Look up P4s (Hesperos Savage) from FF14, Phase 1 of that fight has different elements but will probably be a bit closer to what you are looking for with havign different elements overlap and having different solutions based on which are being activated.
1000% agree on Kurog. I've said repeatedly its a total failure of design and is fun in spite of it. I think they needed to nerf the add health by like 60% right after the world first race was over to bandaid the fight into actually playing the phases.
Haven't been progress raiding mythic since legion, but as other people in the comments say: Raszageth hc is one of my favorite fights (below mythic) ever
I don't think having Dratnos on brings out any other perspective, he just agrees with whatever max says. I love Dratnos but I think next time it would be nice to have someone else on. Twicks was fantastic though
Terros is definately a feels bad. He got done dirty with an early spot in the raid. But maybe im biased because he's pretty much the only boss that doesn't have adds to slap. But when you get everyone doing the mechanics properly it's pretty fun to do, pretty clockwork but that's fine.
Mythic Sennarth was easily one of the worst mythic progress bosses for me, SOLELY due to the ice spinning bug - it was awful. Had the bug, every single prog night and I wanted to throw my PC in the bin. Felt like I had no ways to counteract the bug as an Unholy DK.
I think it’s funny that an in elemental themed expansion that they did Ascendant council 2 12 years later though AC had a much more cool last phase lol
![The Story of Vault of the Incarnates [Lore]](/img/n.gif)
Why does dratnos always sound like he's distracting a friend before taking him to a surprise birthday party
lol this is the most accurate thing I’ve ever heard
@@zg1106 I was thinking the exact same thing lmao that’s so good 😂
I cant unhear this
The combination of Max as a RL/Melee DPS, Dratnos as Tank and Twicks as a healer, talking about their perspective view of the raid was the best decision for this kind of video.
I appreciate Twicks pushing back against Max’s takes. Good viewpoints.
Max was overly reasonable in my opinion, some of his points were very self-oriented and not at all meaningful in the broader raid-wide progression interest, "priest does nothing in this mechanic", "evoker just carries you there".
Does help with perspective though, on how differently they see fights, even if they're not looking at the same things sometimes.
@@raulrsj20but is it good design if 1/12th of the classes are completely useless? I don't know the exact split, but if 1/12th of the player base cannot properly play the class due to fight design, that seems pretty bad.
@@raulrsj20 yo Bravely Default people still exist! Completely unrelated but I'm pumped about it
Of course they see it differently. Max's guild kills an essentially untested boss, and by doing that provides the feedback Blizz needs to fix the bosses, and that version of the boss is the one Twicks sees.
Adding twicks and Max raiding in an alt guild definitely improves the perspective of these videos. I do wish there would be more brief mentions of how these bosses are on normal/heroic like y’all did on Razageth.
from a heroic perspective Raz was the best fight in the raid and felt the most fulfilling to kill. I never felt like it was a given that she was gonna die unless we were on our game. I hated kurog though. The add phase was such an annoyance to me. I would have rather just went around the room and played each phase and then maybe had a final phase of some sort.
raz is one of the best heroic fights ever IMO
@@LimitMaximum 😢😮
@@LimitMaximum What I really dislike about heroic Rasza is the fact that it's so poorly balanced for very small groups. For smaller guilds, it's unreasonably hard to kill Rasza, unless you invite a bunch of pugs. But good luck trying to progress on HC Rasza with pugs, where people will leave after 2 wipes. Combined with the fact that the boss drops only shitty loot if you're not a hunter, some guilds spend more time looking for people in the group finder than they are actually trying to progress/learn the boss.
@@Neescherful How is it harder with less people? So many of the mechanics become exponentially harder with more people as there are proximity based mechanics. I progged with some friends as a 10 man in heroic and a lot of us had done PUGs and we all thought it was much easier as 10.
@@Defenestrationed It might be completely different at the level you're playing at. But playing with a lower group has several major disadvantages:
- Every mistake counts. Somebody fucks up in a 10-man raid, you NEED to res them. You can't afford to be one man down, which in a 20-30 size raid group, you can totally make up for.
- You have WAY less healing cooldowns.
- In addition to that, you have way less "automatic" healing, ie. hots that are rolling anyway, stuff like healing rain, big aoe heals, etc... (that's why you'll NEVER be able to get good healing logs on 10man).
- You have less externals, less CC and less interrupts. CC and interrupt may not be as impactful in Rasz as in other encounters, but even in Rasz some classes/specs have a way easier time dealing with spark than others, so depending on group setup will factor in.
- You're much more likely to not have an optimal group setup, and will be missing some buffs. Even if you try to optimize, you can't squeeze everything in, but more importantly, most groups/guilds that are raiding in smaller groups, will "bring the player, not the class", so it's even more likely you don't have some major buffs like int/stam/ap/motw.
- Healer range. If you only have 2 healers, in a big room like Dathea/Rasz, even non-Evoker healers will sometimes be out of range of several people, and sometimes both healers will be out of range.
- Whenever a dps has to do mechanics and stop dps for a while, a much larger percentage of dps will be lost. If 3 out of 6 dps have to move away from the boss, it's much more impactful than if 3 out of 14 dps have to.
- I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think(?) the combat res cooldown scales down with group size? Sure you have more people, so you should get more BRs with a bigger group size, but see point 1, not everybody needs an immediate res in big groups.
- Individual skill and individual weaknesses are much more impactful on lower raid sizes than bigger ones. On bigger raids it's no problem to have 1-2 undergeared or bad players, if you have others that make up for it. In 10man it really shows, and paired with the fact that there's just less healing in 10man, means you really notice those undergeared people because they have less hp. Lesser skilled players might die more often, and again, this is a bigger problem in smaller groups than in bigger ones.
I agree, if all players in the group are about equally skilled and geared (and adequately skilled), the difference isn't that big, and on some fights 10man might actually be easier. But in reality, many groups want to raid with smaller groups *because* they want to raid with their friends and their guildmates, and that will result in discrepancies in player skill/gear, and in non-optimal group compositions. You might say "these groups then don't deserve to kill HC Rasza", and you might even be right. But it's not necessarily a skill or gear issue, because I know from experience, and from semi-pugging Rasza quite a bit, that if you invite more people, it gets easier even if they have the same gear/skill/damage/healing. The hard part is getting people to stay and learn the fight, instead of leaving after 2 attempts because they expected a free carry.
My guild tried to 10man Rasza and we found it much MUCH harder than even just 2/3/9, and when we finally killed him, it's not like the pugs carried us. Just having a 3rd healer helps so much with having ppl in range and having more healing CDs, that the fact the pug healer did less numbers than the 2 guild healers, didn't really matter.
Most of the things I said aren't exclusive to Rasza, but generally apply to small vs big raid groups, but the difficulty spike from penultimate boss to last boss is in my opinion much higher than it was in Nathria and Sanctum (I didn't raid Sepulcher, so I don't know about Jailor difficulty). In my opinion bigger raid size helps a lot on bosses like Kurog (more incidental healing, more diverse healing (spot/group healing), less dps have to run and lose dps to mechanics) and Diurna (in big groups easier to build good add group, less dps lost on ppl doing eggs, more interrupts for add group), but those bosses are 10x easier than Rasza.
These are just my personal experiences, and they might not apply to everybody.
Polite, knowledgeable people sharing opinions without attacking each other. Great combination of perspectives - would be great to get a healer main in next raid too! Brilliant video.
another shoutout to Dratnos on the "thinking before he speaks" comment. He gives criticism in a very organized manner, without tarnishing any dev's hard work.
Dratnos is bae
Biggest issue I had with Rasagath is that was one of the biggest Rube goldberg Machines of a fight. Any break in the track was instant wipe.
It's really hard to convince the group to just pair with the closest same-charge buddy for Stormsurge when there's one loud voice who demands everyone stacks so they can get their big big healing breaths off across both stacks for the unspoken parse. *cough* evokers *cough* *cough*
In heroic, our longest hurdle was getting people to stop standing in breaths/getting blown off the platform in P1, but the actual hard wall was Stormsurge. We still managed to get through it with the pug stacking method, but it took awhile.
There were small personal things people did that we had to work through-- some DH's were saving their Meta's for the following intermission to try and stun the small ads more easily, instead of opting for having it up during Lust on 2nd Surge. Once things like that got ironed out, it took a week of gear upgrades before (like you said) only 3-5 times reaching final phase to clear it.
That said, Heroic Raz was great for the reasons you gave.
Overall, Raz, Terros and Brood were the only fights I thoroughly enjoyed in the raid.
Brood would have been S for me if we didn't have so much dps downtike while running across the room to reach another spawn. As Havoc, I had it easy with endless dashing+double-jump-boosting, but it still made the fight feel slower than it needed to be.
Eranog was an A, but not because he was thoroughly enjoyable. He was a good first 1st boss.
I actually enjoyed Sennarth, but only because I'm Havoc. Gossamer Pull was never an issue. Yeeting at mach 12 across the ice twice sucked in a way, but, being Havoc, it felt cool to recover by just changing direction and landing on the lower platform, managing to get back up in time without dying for final dps (Havoc DH jumping/speedrun minigame).
Rest of your ranks I agree with. Would have liked the bosses to have better/cooler writing, and for Raz to be way less of a cliche villain with her voice lines, but hey, it's retail. xD
As a healer I was raging during M Dathea prog. Def swamp.
same, worse fight i have ever healed. I stay calm during raid but, I was so angry doing this as a priest. It just felt so bad to heal, I could write a long essay on what was wrong from a healers perspective.
One thing I really enjoyed about Kurog was that you got to progress through 5 very unique and distinct phases that all had different mechanics, different kind of required dps profiles, etc.
We usually only ever get that many different phases on a final boss. This meant that while we were progress Kurog, it really felt like actual progress where with each pull, you would improve a bit, got into a new phase, learned something new, etc. Unlike bosses like say Terros which was great, but where after you had gotten him to like 80% health you had essentially seen the entire fight and now it was all about proper execution.
As a healer, I am so happy twicks is out here speaking facts! Dathea is my least favorite mythic fight, as a healer, since 8.3 when I started playing. It is the bottom of swamp tier and nothing is even close imo. I hard considered quitting mid raid for the first time ever, I hated this fight so much (priest fyi).
I already despise Dathea as a dk dps, where you can ignore half the mechanics, because the remaining mechanics are such a pain in the arse too.
Dps on the add is one of these that is rather tightly timed, you need it down before the debuffs go out but also after the adds spawn which means running halfway across the room dodging whirlwinds if the spawn is bad.
Those whirlwinds are dogshit in general I don't see them adding anything to the fight but frustration since you sometimes can't tell which path they're taking.
And having done this on heroic as a caster alt I can imagine just how bad cyclone is as a non dk.
Yea we could'nt heal shit on Dathea because people were so spread out. But the fight that kinda made me quit was Mythic Sennarth
He basically just complained anytime a fight was more about mechanics over just being able to heal the entire time...Not every fight has to be like terros with big damage incoming with everyone nonstop stacked with simple movement mechanics so it's easy to just pump heals. Sometimes it can be fun with a challenge like Sennarth or Dathea.
I'm in a low-tier guild full of mostly older Millennials with kids, families, jobs. Folks have varying amount of time to devote to the game; varying skill levels; and it's been interesting to see the game from this perspective.
IMO, the big issues with raiding come down to two things:
First, loot. You touched on the fact that some bosses drop nothing valuable. That's true. But I think raids would benefit from just a lot more loot dropping. We have issues gearing up our members, as some just don't have the time or interest in grinding out M+. It takes us weeks to get everyone up to Normal quality. IMO, if you raid 7 hours per week, after a month you should expect to have a full set of gear from raid.
Second, Raz was a huge spike in difficulty relative to its drops (unless you were a hunter). It was a 100 pull boss for us, and we had to drop a lot of our lower performing members, plus spend a few weeks farming high level M+ vault slots and Mythic Eranog/Council, to get there. It stopped being fun at that point. Like, IMO, Mythic should be where the 100+ pulls bosses live. You know you're signing up for an unrewarding grind there.
If there's issues gearing the raid why don't people run Mythic+ ? I never thought loot drops was a issue, tons of loot drops. I do agree about Heroic Raz, felt much more "mythic" in a lot of ways..very rough boss.
One good thing about the last phase of Raszageth being easier than earlier phases is that you don't spend as many pulls wiping in the last phase, which is oftentimes a longer fight so you spend less time pulling in total even though the pull count may have been relative to an equally difficult boss.
Agreed. Not sure about the take that later phases should be harder than earlier phases. I'm all about that victory lap phase.
@@okbucket I think it's less about the last phase having to be the hardest part of the fight, and more that the last phase of Rasz didn't hit the mark of it's intended design.
The design intention was clearly to have this Epic final phase with the room shrinking, ramping up the pressure and delivering that moment of most Guilds first kill being in the last seconds.
However because of how the other phases are designed, and the nerfs they did to the last phase. You end up with a situation where most of progression is in P1 and I1, then P2 is figure out shields, then I2 and when you get through I2 clean for the first time with everyone you're getting the kill.
Except the visual design of the end of I2 is literally the calm before the storm. You get to sit around and wait to get pushed back.
Then factor in that in Mythic P1, your melee and specs with movement have no problem with the pushback, and your Priests and Paladins had to be literally carried through. Means that, through no fault of their own, as a raid you're not progressing evenly. More than half of the raid is waiting for the Evoker rescue operation to learn P1. And if it ever fails while progging a further phase it's a wipe and you have to go again.
As a regular AOTC player, that barely ever has done Mythic prog: Raz was/is one of my fav ever fights. Very intense fight but once you have it "solved" it's just such a rush of good feelings :D
Having that one guy with a more "casual" mindset was very good, I could relate more to his point of views than those of Max etc (just because I don't play at that lvl). Very interesting to see the differents points of view though.
Thank you for getting Twix in here. Pretty much everything he said represents those of us not in top 1000 CE guilds. Whenever I watch videos like this, I always wish you had someone saying what he was saying. Thanks for that
Dathea and Razzie progression were the only two bosses where I felt actually depressed
@40:35 This is a phenomenal idea. I would LOVE a team-based proving ground where 4-5 raid healers can hop in and practice healing 15-16 friendly NPC’s through raid damage, especially if they made it fight specific (and let you select the boss and difficulty setting).
My list (from the perspective of a normal/lfr casual Raider
1. Broodkeeper
2. Razsageth
3. Terros
4. Primal Council
5. Kurog
6. Eranog
7. Sennarth
8. Dathea
Explanations:
Dathea: One of the worst bosses in wow ever, annoying but not in a fun way, and a ridiculous difficulty jump between lfr and normal (which I know is normally the case but it’s an even bigger jump here).
Sennarth: Neat idea, but moving while dps isn’t ever fun (unless you’re halondrus)
Eranog: A good first boss, but I think it’s way too easy (again from a normal/lfr perspective, casual fun wow gamer). As far as first bosses go, I thought it was good enough, but I prefer shriekwing and Sivara.
Kurog: Honestly a fight I thought was fun but flawed. I don’t hate but I don’t love it (I was hoping to love it after I heard the name from the name grimtotem)
Primal Council: the fact this was compared to prototype pantheon was a damn crime, so much better than that in every way possible. The chaos is the reason I like it, it forces people to focus on what they’re doing (and plus with 10 people it isn’t nearly as chaotic as with 20 or more). I enjoy this fight because it spikes my adrenaline.
Terros: I used to hate this boss, because pug groups could never do the dps check when it first came out. After it became easier and easier, I think it’s pretty fun.
Razsageth: progression for me on the boss was fun (prob because I was on normal) and I think it’s a pretty good final boss. Interesting mechanics, but the intermissions were really annoying. If anything, this boss is a definite improvement over the jailer and sylvanas, so it works fine with me.
Broodkeeper: I always ran adds on this fight, and like with primal council, I love how chaotic it is. I also am a huge fan of razorgore, so the sendback was really nice. This is just a fight I really enjoy, and while it is similar to SLG and Kelthuzad, it’s the best version of what those fights tried to be ( and honestly I never hated SLG but I definitely hated Kelthuzad)
As my opinion may not count because I am super hyper casual who now prefers m+ to raiding, I hope anyone who read this understands my POV.
I started watching twicks a little while ago. Nice for you to put him in your vid. He is a veery nice guy to watch
When progressing HC Broodkeeper with my hc guild we didn't follow a guide with the eggs, figuring out the route to take the boss, which eggs (and how many) to kill plus keeping communication with the players on the adds so that they weren't in range of the boss all added to making it one of the most enjoyable fights this tier.
Excellent guests, excellent video
What nameplates are at 33:51??? Please!
21:58 this is so true. In my aotc guild doing all spikes at once is a thing on farm to annoy the healers, but in prog it would kill us.
Terros looks so good aswell. The little clip of him was what made me lean to come back to the game.
Eranog is probably my favourite opening boss of all time. Some expansions are a lil difficult to say "which boss" is the opening boss - BC, wrath & cata specifically - fortunately they don't have particularly strong contenders. "Maybe" magtheridon, at least relative to its time. Maybe sartharion, with hardmode options with extra drakes. "Recent" expansions we've got stone guards/dogs from Mogu'shan Vaults. Average. Bladefist in Highmaul, great. Probably would've been my choice prior to eggnog. Emerald nightmare first dragon, well, the fact that I can't even remotely remember its name probably says more than anything else. Then there's Taloc from BFA. Elevator boss made into actual boss. I would be much fonder of this fight, purely for its uniqueness if nothing else, if it weren't for Khor, Hammer of the [Corrupted] Guardian. Overall, an incredibly minor thing, but genuinely stands out to me as one of Blizzard's (at least in regards to wow) dumbest decisions, ever. "Oh that weapon you got day 1? Yeah, that's a cosmetic now. Woopsy, enjoy your .7 DPS. Oh you don't like that, well we'll fix it for the people who got screwed over... then remove the item from them towards the end of the expansion because reasons"
On Dathea as a resto druid you could cast tranq and get sucked into the middle but it didnt knock you up thanks to the inner peace talent, once I figured that out, the fight felt so much better
i iwonder if that works for mistweaver chi-ji too!?
Twicks had some really good takes, Dathea might be the worst healer fight in the raid, but also worse than any boss in other raids for a few years. On top of the movement during the big healing and spreading being atrocious, the cyclones are under 1.30min apart, which doesn't fit any healer cds. On top of that on prog for mid tier guilds its a 5 heal fight with 3-4 platforms. Some healers just have to stay down which makes the boss giga boring.
Dratnos saying "GG" when leaving just killed me xD
58:30 But if that were so, why would people like Gul'dan or Garrosh? I mean, surely it is a factor that pulls the boss down, but a deciding one? Idk...
My guild killed terros recently, did all spikes for cleanliness BUT we had to assign Every CD including all personals to get through it
I have to say, watching all these fights from a ranged POV is completely different from melee (which I play). It is absolute chaos and mayhem in melee and the ranged are just chilling in the back.
Ty for bringing dratnos in to discuss this I think he is an awesome commentator
WE LOVE THE RAT, THE DIRTY RATNOS, BUT IS IT BIS???????????
As I have both outside raid lead my AOTC guild group and have pugged the entire thing myself to get AOTC, I think that the Ras fight is an absolute banger. Even if you think you got it, one mistake is all it takes to just end the pull.
On the storm shield, my guild had the raid spread out around the boss, all reds immediately collapse to the center and the blue people to just form several clumps of people around the boss.
12:05 the point about marks, all they need to do is maybe make it fewer people and then make it to where when you do hit a pillar you get a short immunity. Maybe make the tanks be immune entirely, idk. Not perfect but certainly would’ve been a bit better.
Great analysis, but I would've loved to have more input from either more casual players or at least focus more on the heroic/normal version of the fights.
I am a CE raider myself and obviously spent most time in mythic, but I understand that for some fights like Dathea, Kurog and Rasz the heroic version is vastly different. And for a large majority of players, that's all they ever get to see. For example, I agree that Dathea is swamp on mythic, but it was way more enjoyable on heroic.
So maybe next time don't have three World top 25 raiders discuss, that all have somewhat identical views, but also include someone who can give input from a more casual perspective.
Good content! Much appreciated during this content drought.
What nameplate addon do you have and is it possible I could get the set up for it? I've seen those friendly nameplates before and I love it and want them myself.
Having progressed this boss now I kinda agree, as a race to world last guild we found in particular that the fight got easier and the only thing that was difficult was literally just having substandard healers. If you had healers that can actually press your healing buttons then p2 intermission and p3 are so easy
I personally enjoyed sennarth a lot but it was swamp ass as a raid boss. It had shitty bugs that just hit a certain subset of players who use certain keybinds, the little spiders were a useless mechanic no one ever utilized. Slows and ice have no fun factor (but I do appreciate the creativity). With some bug fixes (camera especially) and if tornados were predictable (either in spawn on when they’re gonna stop and reverse) this could’ve been a much better boss
Honestly the council boss in Vault, from JUST an AoTC raider who has done it as dps and healer I genuinely love this boss. The mechanics are simple enough, it's glorified rock paper scissors. The counter intuitive this with pillars needed for lightning but you want to remove them with fire is not too bad since new pillars nearly always come back before the next lightning. The last council fight I like more than this is the hellfire citadel council. The fact that the mechanics can't really tell people "Just go here with X" The dance of it you have to adapt a bit more based on where things are which feels good.
Speaking of Terragrue - you gotta KNOW there will be at least one raid boss that is going to have us doing crazy Dragon Riding antics!
Sennarth for melee actually was a fun fight imo would have it in low B personally
Only a heroic raid civilian here but as one... Dathea was the worst boss by a lot for most of my guild. Kurog would have been terrible as well if it weren't for an amazing cheesy strat existing, but probably still would have been less terrible. Only great thing about Dathea was that the runback basically didn't exist, which should be the case on all bosses tbh. It's awful to do the runback in WoW raids.
Primal Council always feels like a shitshow and I can’t tell if I love or hate it. Even when the pull is going well it feels like half a second from falling apart, which is cool compared to other bosses that feel free on normal and heroic but also maybe is just bad design that it’s so chaotic? Idk
As someone that mains melee, I’m leaning more towards hate. The lightning mechanic is just too annoying in my opinion. Especially being punished for someone else’s bad positioning/pathing.
Two is was a great guest!!! Would love to see trill on sometime.
So much fun content, keep it up
Trinket token - cries as healer, no thanks
1:01:45 Thorim hardmode on 25 in wrath, admittedly not an end boss, or a hard boss, but you need a buddy cuz the arena is too small
I wish they gave the stormsurge buffs clearer descriptions in the dungeon guide.
Funny how difficulty, role and execution make such a diference in opinion. As someone that only do heroic for atoc and play as a healer, I find that kurog and raz are really cool bosses. Also, healing diurna and doing the staff mechanic at the same time was funny, specially when you have less healers than you should lol They're probably my favorite bosses of this raid, along with terros
The biggest issue with making your average encounters more complicated is that it just makes it nearly impossible to get a guild together to do the content. There are VERY few guilds per server that will ever get 7/8 let alone 8/8 per server, and most of them already have their core group that has been there for the last 3 expansions.
Twicks out here with some great takes,
Rasza Mythic is actually a good boss. Lot of things to do, adds, movement, position, cc, dps buffs. Not hard things to do but lot of thing.
For me the only problem that matter is how long it takes.
i had to play priest healer as well this tier and i 100% agree with everything twicks said. kurog was by far the most fun boss this tier. and i have the same assessment about boss order as max. if they swapped the order the raid would have been so so much better
Kind of interesting how "damage done to adds" is kind of almost a kind of reward that needs to be balanced. When there is even a discussion over the pad on adds, I think that's interesting.
As a healer, I 100% agree that Dathea was definitely Swamp Ass.
He really said Eggsecute with a straight face and nobody batted an eye.
As a DPS Evoker player, I LOVE Sennarth. Hover pretty much removes most of the issues I would have with the fight. Granted, I've not done the fight on mythic, so I don't know how that feels. Despite that tho, heroic is a blast for me.
1:03:08 Disagree because teamwork is cool and fun.
There are alot of fights where you solely rely on your teammates to save you. Basically everytime a roar is required you also are "getting carried" by your druid teammate, whats the difference.
Every Dome of Light a teammate drops and you need to stand in is also just a priest carrying you.
So refershing to have someone spitting healer truths. You love to see it, and sadly it's rare AF
So happy twicks was here pushing back against dratnos and max's takes. In a 7/8 M guild progging raz I found myself constantly agreeing with what he said and dear god even with multiple kills on dathea, I would put it in giga swamp.
Dathea was so punishing for a "casual" CE guild. If you don't have good (as in world 100) coordination or a good raid lead that can call out marks on the spot, then one wrong mark = wipe. Such an annoying boss. Also the cyclone sucked big time, whether you were a healer, a range or a melee. And the add which you had to have perfect kill timing on - if you killed it too early people wouldn't reach the platform, if you killled it too late you had marks on the platform...
@@stylaaaniki yeah our raid leader still doesnt have a kill and raid leads from the outside for dathea
Dathea was the only fight my guild 21st manned and it was me. Tracked sparks, energy, position. I think it was firmly swamp.
2:30 hey man, thats rude
😂😂😂
Man this got me thinking imagine they combined Kurog and Council. Kurog has the normal 4 elemental quadrants stacking respective ability strength for time in quadrant. Then the add phase was literally primal council and you split raid into two groups. Fire and ice and have to stay in their half and they only have blizzard meteor axe and other half is pillar conduits. Would've been really sick I think.
Holy Twicks is a Debbie downer where he just doesn't need to be. "Well I dont like it because of this one thing healers have to do and I'm not thinking any further than that"
Good opening line!
Terros would be a all time banger if it didn’t have such shit loot
I wish Sennarth was more like a horror movie monster: it should do scary stuff rather than slowly ascend the room. Specifically, I wish Sennarth summoned like 1000 tiny spiders during the fight. I mean, I would scream at the top of my lungs, but it would have been way cooler
At the end of the day, whether it's fun or not is what matters. That's why chat says swamp for Sennarth and Dathea. That's why people wanted to rate Kurog high. Theoretical design is cool and all but if it's fun, who really cares?
We need more Twicks opinions!
The only issues with Terros is I have absolutely no idea what he looks like. You spend the whole fight looking at the ground and his arms.
We are 3/8m currently and working on Sennarth... We only killed Terros because we chose to destroy all pillars in one go during p1-p3 and split pillars in p4. Destroying all pillars should be the default strat in Mythic no matter what level of guild you are in. We also have 2-3 resto druids.
For heroic progress, rasz was quite fun. for pugging, i've never seen an endboss where everyone just wordlessly agrees that a full clear means you kill up to Broodkeeper and leave. Don't even have to ask, because of how much of a shitshow it is. I only did EP, Nyalotha and CN before this raid but in all of those I remember looking forward to getting in pug groups to kill endboss. In this raid the group just disbands.
LOL the slow zoom during dathea talk. Ahh man that make me exhale air at a higher rate than normal.
I think they should have switched terros with kurog. So when you do your 2 mythic bosses for vault you have the choice of council or kurog for the second boss for different loot. As a tank, because of how hard broodkeeper slaps she definitely feels like a late raid boss. Terros is not a bad fight. The loot is just meh. But moving him later in the raid would bump up the ilvl of his drops which kinda makes up for them being bad. And you could totally skip him later in the season still and go right up the middle once you get the staff pieces from broodkeeper.
honorable mention first raid first boss the dogs in mogushan vualts
It's funny that currently in patch 10.2 I still am wearing the 421 seals of diurnas chosen and it's still outsimming some 460 rings on my dh lol
The only people who think Sennarth was an acceptable boss are people who didn't play a caster.
It’s actually better if you set the standard of what is S and what is Swamp so we know what A and B is
watching THD in chat just be pissed off about every fight makes the video for me
honestly grieftorch feels on like the same power level as soul capacitor was in WoD
I really like this format! If you plan to do this again, I'd like to see an explicit breakdown of Bosses on NHC, HC, and Mythic. My guild raids casually and we had lots of fun raiding on NHC and HC and I found myself kind of surprised to see that so many bosses seem not be that great on mythic.
With this red shirt thumbnail and the glasses and the nose I’ve always thought Max looks exactly like Raszegeth.
I really liked Council. Easy, but fun.
Would have loved to see it as a penultimate fight, with each elements having an interaction with each othe element
Look up P4s (Hesperos Savage) from FF14, Phase 1 of that fight has different elements but will probably be a bit closer to what you are looking for with havign different elements overlap and having different solutions based on which are being activated.
1000% agree on Kurog. I've said repeatedly its a total failure of design and is fun in spite of it. I think they needed to nerf the add health by like 60% right after the world first race was over to bandaid the fight into actually playing the phases.
Haven't been progress raiding mythic since legion, but as other people in the comments say: Raszageth hc is one of my favorite fights (below mythic) ever
Sennarth is my favorite boss. Dude is allowed his opinion, but I definitely don’t agree lol
I feel like comparing bosses to bosses is pretty bad.
"Was this fun"
"Were the mechanics fun"
That's pretty much all you need.
I don't think having Dratnos on brings out any other perspective, he just agrees with whatever max says. I love Dratnos but I think next time it would be nice to have someone else on. Twicks was fantastic though
On Kurog, due to the traveltime of the rot damage, spirit link was unusable as it would actually kill people xD
Does anyone what plater profile Thdlock uses ? Can't find it anywhere please help if you know
Terros is definately a feels bad. He got done dirty with an early spot in the raid. But maybe im biased because he's pretty much the only boss that doesn't have adds to slap. But when you get everyone doing the mechanics properly it's pretty fun to do, pretty clockwork but that's fine.
Mythic Sennarth was easily one of the worst mythic progress bosses for me, SOLELY due to the ice spinning bug - it was awful. Had the bug, every single prog night and I wanted to throw my PC in the bin. Felt like I had no ways to counteract the bug as an Unholy DK.
37:36 As a destro warlock 💯
6:10 The hell is a civilian guild? Is that the new name for a guild that always clears max 3 bosses on mythic?
I do wanna say for a perspective on Darthea.. As a DK... Its not a swamp and more a B. But again we can stand still the whole fight
I think it’s funny that an in elemental themed expansion that they did Ascendant council 2 12 years later though AC had a much more cool last phase lol