Max, the race is such an awesome event thanks to you guys and Echo, and I truly appreciate what you do for us all. After Paragon disbanded, world first was such a "whatever" happening for so many tiers, but these past 6 tiers and the rivalry between Liquid and Echo has been an absolute joy to watch. I stopped raiding long ago, but thanks to you I still have a reason to tune in to the game. And congrats on the win this tier, you all played out of your minds. Well deserved
Believe it or not. You as a person who plays WoW is inspiring to other people to push content. Even if it's not mythic raiding, your vibes and how you talk and treat other people, coupled with how absolutely genius you are makes me want to play Wow and push myself into territories I normally don't try. I appreciate you and team Liquid. Also... My new aberrus RWF liquid mouse pad is amazing!
One thing I will say is it is a sign of a great leader to be as logical, well spoken, and honestly just being willing to have some of these hard conversations with everyone involved in these types of races. Being a project manager, I know exactly how difficult it can be to have so many moving parts and in my opinion, the most valuable skill anyone can have is being able to speak to people of different backgrounds and skillsets and get them all together to work in cohesion.
Watching live and experiencing the first WF kill since CN was surreal. Very proud of liquid and very happy for all of you. You guys deserve it and I’ve watched the kill like 100 times now and it still makes me smile. Team liquid for life. ❤
I feel like I’m an outlier. I am always rooting for you guys because I find the Liquid personalities to be more in line with mine, but I am a fan of both you and Echo. Maybe it’s because at the end of the day the group skill and strat development is a skill to be praised and admired.
I am a major Liquid fan but I care more about a good fun race and watching the strats develop. I am hoping Method keeps up the good work and makes it a 3 team race because that would be so much more exciting.
Echo's just boring to watch compared to Liquid, especially now with being able to listen to their raid comms. Liquid's roster is on crack 90% of the raid.
@@veppy4952 always funny when preach tries to claim that NA raiders are more serious than EU and then we hear shak and firedup bouncing off the walls 😂
Definitely appreciate both Liquid and Echo. And Method are doing some incredible work, can't wait to see them in next season as well! Thank you for this, always insightful and educative to listen to your takes and responses to wild shit people come up with. Congrats on the win, it was a fantastic race!
Hearing Max's take about Zskarn being a good boss knowing that this was streamed quite a while before everyone cheesed that boss/the boss got hotfixed into being nuts is hilarious.
Been taking a break from wow since the end of shadowlands but always love these type of videos from you. You have a great way of articulating the thoughts you have and in my opinion staying somewhat neutral even though you know you have a clear bias for your guild. Congrats on the win as well, looked like a sick end boss.
I am sick of the guys from Echo whining every time they lose. Literally the worst sportsmanship I’ve ever seen in esports. You guys absolutely smashed sark. What 30 to 40 pulls better than them? I look at you also as an innovator. The stream coaching the team was such an awesome game changer I feel. Either way congrats man you guys won easily and fair and square. Look forward to next raid.
ngl the entire race i was like damn liquid and echo are hammering but method is right there i was honnestly surprised to see liquid, echo and method progging sark at the same time, normally first and 2nd ar on last boss and 3rd is progging 8/9 sometimes even 7/9, like method "could" have won, realistically of course not but there could have been one of those "miracle pulls" where somehow they just kill it, im pumped for next tier and hopefully method can build off this tier going into the next
I missed this Q&A but I would have loved to see what Max would have thought about if they just kept doing splits longer and chicken-race Echo into starting mythic first.
I think the gearing difference is due to D4 dropping so soon. Can see the playerbase dropping a bit once it comes out. We're just gonna have to wait until next patch and see if you gear just as fast
i definitely agree with magmorax - my guild is just bunch of people in social group, and magmorax - or the hydra - jsut fel extremely weak on heroic - like we needed several pulls on rakshok to learn the fight well, the bomb boss took us also like 5-10 pulls.. magmorax was killed on first pull - only mechanic on hc was need to soak immediately and not have stacks, but the stacks dropped so quickly, so it just felt like imposibble to die to that anyway
There is so many factors to consider with what could have been different if it's same time release. Like they 1 shot a lot of bosses after you because they could see how you did it and clap them. But in a same release time do they still 1 shot? Do they take longer? It could also likely cause one side to have to become overnight raiders while the other can stay day time, is that gonna be considered fair? Chances are you will still get GG BUT! from that too. Never gonna be able to make it a 100% balanced and fair situation but I think in the heat of the moment a lot of people forget that. The only times I feel it's a let down is when situations like Raz happens where it felt more like they gave Echo the win because they wanted everyone home for Christmas. Could/would Echo of still won without it? Quite possibly and that's fine they'd deserve it and either way they still played REALLY well. But just under these specific circumstances it feels bad. I think you lot absolutely smashed this raid and I love seeing you guys win. Not just because I'm a big fan of you lot but because it's also nice to see a different winner. Not just one team year after year. It's why I struggle with MDI sometimes, at least watching any match Echo plays because its like...usually a pretty predetermined Echo has won situation which gets boring. At least for me. But anyway I ramble a lot. GG on your well played win. Looking forward to seeing what comes next!
JB has a good point, and if that is what they were doing.. I get it. But they were dumb af to not do it with global release change. Because those walls have been evening it out a bit previously. If someone is about to get way ahead, there was usually a wall somewhere for catchup. I think Ive seen that go both ways, but especially early-mid walls/bugs would quickly eat away a couple hours of your day/advantage.
Amen to shorter fights. CE raiding in Shadowlands was alright in Castle Nathria, since even Council and SLG were dead by 10 minutes or less, or you had wiped. Most of SoD was good, except KTZ's abhorrent design (even after the 'rework'). However, Sylvanas progression was a SLOG. Multiple 14:35 wipes in a row to berserk, and you're sleepwalking through P1, P2, and the first 2 platforms almost every pull. It feels so much better to prog intense 7-8 minute fights than 12+ minutes where only the final 2-3 minutes are insane.
I think it's 100% certainly the case, that if global release actually happens, the argument is just going to change into, "Huh...! Well NA has the advantage, because it releases for us during 2am, and we're forced into a bad sleep schedule."
I'm genuinely curious about what culture differences specifically are obstacles for Echo and Liquid. Not for the sake of drama but because cultural differences are fun to explore. It would be like those videos about international couples talking about their difficulties... except it's two competing guilds instead of a couple lol.
To be fair.....most of last races were completly fuckd up by bosses that were ( probably not randomly ) overtuned and the race kinda depended on who was logging right after blizzard decided to nerf them. Quite sure blizzard dont have any agenda on who wins the race but for sure felt they were overtuning bosses to stretch the race artificially.
The reason of people complaining when you guys win and not echo is that you have the advantage. Not your problem tho! Would be so nice with global release or a tournament server for the guilds going for the race. I am an echo fan in the races but love seeing EU vs NA and due to time zones allways seeing one of the guilds active as hell. Gogogo!
I do understand the problem with tournament realms tho but splits sucks. Done em myself some years back and it feels horrible. Not having em on a tournament realm tho would be interesting as it is more alike what "normal players" do.
Idea for guardian druid they need another fur. They have iron fur they need like mithril fur that gives them defense for magic. Maybe like a 80/20 DR. So like iron fur gives 80% of it's effect to phys and 20% to magic DR and mithril fur is the other way around 80% of the effect to DR magic and 20% to physical. Reason I think the split would be because almost no bosses are full one damage type these days and the skill of knowing when you start switching and ramping up the opposite fur type would be pretty good skill. I played guardian fairly regularly for almost all of shadowlands it and really always came down to why don't have to a way to handle magic that isn't just out heal it because that is silly design.
It obviously wasnt a fair race, but putting the blame on Liquid is ludacris. Wp to both guilds, hopefully a new format can come so there is no debate after a race.
I think its weird that they dont start at the same time. Like the argument is that they can copy the strat, but never actually played it out. Whether it matters or not imo they just should start at the same time and battle it out.
If people think a raid is badly tuned if the top 40 players in the world get to a boss at the correct gear level and kill it in 2 days, that's crazy. I swear they need to just make Mythic have a base ilvl when you enter it and then you can earn Mythic loot inside to increase your Mythic ilvl. For example you enter at any ilvl you want and you get scaled to 430. Bosses drop gear 435-450. The end boss will be really hard but you can kill it at 430 ilvl. You still have progression (arguably more progression than you do now) and you can tune the raid for an ilvl you know everyone will have. Also this lets people play whatever alts they want since you just enter at 430 ilvl without having to grind 20 alts and do 60 splits an hour.
the whole raid is under tuned, if your able to 1 shot most mythic bosses and none of them are 50 pull bosses up to the last boss with a 430 ilvl and hc gear is maxed at 441, its quite reasonable to say its under tuned. i mean look how much of a joke magmorax is for a 7th of 9 boss raid. mythic killed in what was normal lvl gear upgraded. not 100% sure on this but i think sludgefist had as many pulls required to kill that as all aberrus combined.
@@plamerj1234 Can you post your mythic log please? The top 40 people in the world should be able to run over the raid. If it's so undertuned and so easy, I want to see your 9/9 mythic.
@@psyonicpanda why should they be able to run it over like it wasnt even challenging ? tell me how this made a good spectacle, they did 3 days of splits and the whole mythic raid in under a week. how to tell me you dont play wow, without telling me you dont play wow, if you think this was ''good'' balancing.
@@hr329085the mechanics are fine, no hectic positional fights like vectis was. but the numbers are off. with the way blizz does nerf bosses after race ends anyway (as they have in aberrus already) it still makes it open to everyone to get cutting edge. are you saying its good that mythic was completed with ease in the equivalent of normal gear upgraded.
Add the patch on Tuesday and Wed in EU, open the raid portals on Thursday after each maint is done by hotfixing the portals to open at a global time. Done. Next problem please.
One team is playing during the day, the other is having to play into the wee hours of the morning. If NA or EU servers have issues one team is screwed. If EU servers or bosses have issue Blizz EU support are mostly all asleep. If the fight goes to reset, the NA reset is first.
So... is the next reset still Tuesday for NA and Wednesday for EU? You going to lock the gate again until Thursday? Also, arbitrary changes just for 2-3 guilds is beyond stupid and not good for business.
As a big Echo/EU fan i actually liked Liquid winning this time. I just like how close it is. Would be pathetic to just see one team own every tier! However i might be abnormal in that sense tho. I like esports for the skill of the players not really for the tribalism of it all.
The only argument I see for global release would be joined servers, NA + EU. If nothing terrible happens, for general playerbase its super weird to have reset midday, or during the evening or whenever, and outside you guys (the top 3), there is no reason ANY other ppl would benefit… cool, I could play patch 8 hours sooner than before, but Im gonna be doing weekly keys the moment I come home, because at 18:00 is reset 😂😂 it cant be.
I am a Echo fan, and i follow the race on both sides and appreciate the close races. Even though Liquid won i still think the difficulty was okay-ish for the race, i think if magmorax was a bit harder then length would have been quite a bit better. For me as a non RWF player i like the difficulty of it since it makes it easier for me to both clear the raids for loot and push m+ without it taking up all of my time. I also believe Liquid played better than Echo this race, from my perspective it was very obvious on Echo of Neltharion with handling the no WA mechanic (this might also be influenced by my sporadic watch times). I hope we can just have global release so all of this BS surronding it goes away, it really taints the event... All this talk about the worst behaviour from Echo and Liquid fans really reminds me of hooliganism that we see in other sports, and i do not think we should take those people as an example of the majority of fans, so i think we should stop lumping those people in with regular fans (like me) that do not take to reddit and twitter to shit on people just because the team they are rooting for lost. Anyway, great race and i am looking forward to the next one :D
21:00 I do think there's a clear difference between pulling off stream for a couple of hours and not streaming for over a day for pulls. 32:45 Except for Gingi lol. That dude needs to grow up hard. He's actually such a baby.
you know, every competition has rules, why don't the guilds get together and work on a rulebook, guilds that want to be part of the race would know what to adhere to, you could pool some of the profits and maybe help smaller upcoming guilds then it wouldn't matter what blizzard does or doesn't, and people could keep their sleep schedules I mean like make it time spent not just in the raid but including splits as well, maybe agree upon a maximum time between end boss kills to account for copying tactics, so if for example liquid kills the end boss and were ahead most of the time for them to be knocked off the first place the next guild must be within a specific timeframe, not just clear it faster, obviously only time actually streamed would count towards overall time spent and agree on a cut off date, so the race is actually over within the next reset of the end boss kill, sure the actual win would be a bit less climactic but other guilds would suddenly get a better chance that don't have the level of money behind them, also the charities would run at least a full week or two what do you think, a possible solution or too much to ask? oh and of course well done you deserved to win
far from one of first guild/race that had females on team, easy name one of your casters Naguura and Paragon had Xenophics are just two name that camer to mind as you said it, im sure there are more but thats whats great about Esport I think thats the only sport where we all are equal and endresult will have a very hard time to say that gender made an important part in who won
yes, and it will be for the rest of time as long as things stand the way they are. A lot of people are unwilling to admit their team made mistakes, even if they performed at a level that is still very impressive and greater than 99.9995% of the player base. Liquid and Echo have both had their good and bad raids, their fortunate and tragic breaks. That's why we watch. The fact that people cant hang it up and say "well, here's what we need to do better next time" and instead spend weeks getting more and more upset about something they cant change is ultimately proof why eugenics was an idea that was given up on far too soon.
Yeah when Liquid won Nyalotha and Castle Nathria in BFA and Shadowlands, a lot of Echo fans said that it was because they had a 16 hour head start or w/e it is, and then again now, and then when Liquid loses, all the Echo fanboys will say something along the lines "HAHAHAH IMAGINE HAVING A 16 HOUR HEAD START AND STILL LOSING HAHAHA SO BAD KEKW LLLLLLL" its basically a lose/lose situation for Liquid, no matter what happens
i got an anogoy for the race. its ly the Olympics, NA comes for open ceremony, EU comes 1 day to half day late. and Asian guilds come at closing ceremony. imo you cant be a "world race" without having same release times. you dont see olympics to have differnet countries come at different times during the olympics. would make it unfair.
Unpopular opinion but I honestly think a raid should not be able to be cleared within the first week. Mythic raiding is still one of if not the most difficult task in the game. So I feel like blizzard should either just make progression layer's where u can only defeat 3 bosses per week and on the third week you can finally get to the last boss depending on how long the raid is ofcourse. Or they should just over buff some bosses so it becomes a roadblock so the players have to either outgear it or wait for blizzard to nerf it. Yes I know this sounds stupid but mythic raiding should not be something u can blast through the first week of it's release in my opinion.
It baffles me as to why this STILL gets so much publicity. You don't start the same day. If you EVER lose to echo you're just straight up shitting the bed. How is it even considered a competition?
I feel like the big thing with the race that fans need to learn to cope with is that no matter what the outcome is, whatever the "unfair" advantage was, sports are not fair no matter what and everyone who choose to participate do so knowing this. For example, in basketball it is an insane disadvantage to be less than 6ft tall, like an unfathomable disadvantage. This is why basketball teams are almost exclusively 7ft goliaths. But every so often an absolutely amazing player comes around that is 5'9'' that plays at a international level. When those players show up you don't hear fans belittle every single basketball player with things like "He only scored cuz he's 7ft tall" that would be insane. But for some reason when the immutable characteristic is the way the sport works (i.e. the race start time difference), something which none of the teams like but all of the teams accept to participate with, there's a huge fuss. If you agree to the terms of the race, you shouldn't complain when another team wins. Especially when the teams that are allegedly disadvantaged by this have won multiple times before. Sports are never fair, they cannot be fair, it is impossible. What sports can be is competetive. If the rules of the game allows the race to be anyone's game, that's everything you can ask for. Just some random rambling food for thought.
Starting time difference is not the same as having different heights on basketball players. That would be more like a skill/gear difference. The time difference is more like letting some people start a marathon an hour early and telling the rest to catch up. Both teams participate because they are not in a position to change the time themselves.
@@biray4710 It is exactly the same for as far as the comparision I'm drawing. Height is an undeniable advantage in basketball and it is inmutable, yet short people choose to pursue a career in basketball all the time and sometimes reach internationa levels of skill. The whole point is that even if we were to admit that it's a massive advantage to get to start early with the RWF (which it provably isn't, hence the slingshot effect). it still doesn't warrant participants and fans of participants to be sore losers and completely ruin the achivement of the victor with vile harassment and claims of foul play.
I too have roughly 4 female players on my roster and i too treat them the same as everyone else and i purge those who cant control themselves and try to act like wow is a dating game.
Max, I am curious what you think about a potential solution to one of your problems. The way Bungie does its raid race contest mode is by making it a dynamic ilvl shift that basically has everyone with contest mode on -30 to the mobs (which in Destiny terms hurts A LOT). WoW could implement a hybrid version of that and the FF14 method, where you have a min ilvl, but you dynamically scale the players back down to the min, and have the mobs have set damage values for contest mode. That would make it easier for Blizz to tune, and then when contest mode is over, the ilvl "advantage" is allowed again. That plus global raid unlock 12-16 hrs after NA reset and syncing those in contest mode to a time/power level would work.
I wanted to support you guys, so I bought a shirt. Imagine paying almost $60 after shipping for a shirt that is listed at $35 and over a week later it still hasn't shipped
You could always decide on your own coordinated "start time" with Echo and other top guilds. This is a community event after all. Note: I actually rooted for you this tier cause I think you were done wrong last tier and the 3 week race was ridiculous in SL. I think you would have beaten Echo even if you started at the same time this tier. So just agree upon a pseudo global release with top 20 guilds and hard start at that hour and it should be OK.
He doesn’t really want that, he’s just saying that because he knows they will never have a global release. I know teenagers that have the ability to sync times.
Kinda surprised how the length of the fight for the last boss wasnt really talked about. Last few tiers its been double lust end bosses... but the fight is super short
It makes me kinda sad that the people who actually participate in the race seem to be pretty mature about it for the most part but the fans are so immature to the teams. Maybe its just a competition thing and they haven't competed in anything they care about. Idk, just makes me sad such a cool event gets tarnished by childish EU/NA fanboys who only seem to care about who wins and not the actual race itself.
Because anyone that knows anything about the race is that Liquid loses any headstart with beta testing bosses / strat creation that other guilds get to copy and not waste time on.
It’s really nice to see max shit on all the double standard “turn off stream” praise/shit show. Couldn’t believe how everyone was praising liquid for doing what they criticized echo for doing a few tiers ago
Thanks for treating Emsy the way that you did. For all the girls that just wanna raid, thanks.
Max, the race is such an awesome event thanks to you guys and Echo, and I truly appreciate what you do for us all. After Paragon disbanded, world first was such a "whatever" happening for so many tiers, but these past 6 tiers and the rivalry between Liquid and Echo has been an absolute joy to watch. I stopped raiding long ago, but thanks to you I still have a reason to tune in to the game. And congrats on the win this tier, you all played out of your minds. Well deserved
I'm so happy for Max and Liquid, well deserved win!
everone's commenting about this being a "well deserved win " - and it is! big gz to max & co.
Omg!!! I’m a female player and I whole heartedly agree with what u said regarding your female player! Good job Liquid:)
I’ve been pretending being female for years too in wow. Free loot
I've been scrolling down comments for a reaction to this take since I feel the exact same way, warms my heart to see this
Thanks Max. Appreciate you taking the time to talk us through these questions and give insight to your and Liquids thinking and culture
Came for the Q&A, stayed for the firedup gameplay.
Believe it or not. You as a person who plays WoW is inspiring to other people to push content. Even if it's not mythic raiding, your vibes and how you talk and treat other people, coupled with how absolutely genius you are makes me want to play Wow and push myself into territories I normally don't try. I appreciate you and team Liquid. Also... My new aberrus RWF liquid mouse pad is amazing!
Grats to Liquid. Impressive to be the creators of the Sark strat and the ones to execute it the quickest.
One thing I will say is it is a sign of a great leader to be as logical, well spoken, and honestly just being willing to have some of these hard conversations with everyone involved in these types of races. Being a project manager, I know exactly how difficult it can be to have so many moving parts and in my opinion, the most valuable skill anyone can have is being able to speak to people of different backgrounds and skillsets and get them all together to work in cohesion.
Watching live and experiencing the first WF kill since CN was surreal. Very proud of liquid and very happy for all of you. You guys deserve it and I’ve watched the kill like 100 times now and it still makes me smile. Team liquid for life. ❤
CN??
Could listen to this for 2 hours more. Love the content!
I feel like I’m an outlier. I am always rooting for you guys because I find the Liquid personalities to be more in line with mine, but I am a fan of both you and Echo. Maybe it’s because at the end of the day the group skill and strat development is a skill to be praised and admired.
I am a major Liquid fan but I care more about a good fun race and watching the strats develop. I am hoping Method keeps up the good work and makes it a 3 team race because that would be so much more exciting.
Echo's just boring to watch compared to Liquid, especially now with being able to listen to their raid comms. Liquid's roster is on crack 90% of the raid.
@@veppy4952 always funny when preach tries to claim that NA raiders are more serious than EU and then we hear shak and firedup bouncing off the walls 😂
47:40 Blackhand is a good exampl3 of a fantastic phase 2 I think. Also a short end boss. Absolute banger
Definitely appreciate both Liquid and Echo. And Method are doing some incredible work, can't wait to see them in next season as well!
Thank you for this, always insightful and educative to listen to your takes and responses to wild shit people come up with.
Congrats on the win, it was a fantastic race!
Hearing Max's take about Zskarn being a good boss knowing that this was streamed quite a while before everyone cheesed that boss/the boss got hotfixed into being nuts is hilarious.
tbf they also used the cheese strat during RWF
Been taking a break from wow since the end of shadowlands but always love these type of videos from you. You have a great way of articulating the thoughts you have and in my opinion staying somewhat neutral even though you know you have a clear bias for your guild. Congrats on the win as well, looked like a sick end boss.
Sometime Echo outplays Liquid and sometime Liquid outplays Echo. This time Liquid outplayed Echo. Congratulations, Liquid.
lmao yeah that 16hr headstart really helped them outplay Echo!
@@cantcatchit Tell us you have a low IQ without telling us you have a low IQ
@@cantcatchit haha yeah I guess you don't know how sleeping and slingshotting works.
@@cantcatchit youre dense to think there is no nuance in this.
@@DriplessShrimp Theres absolutely nuance to it but they do have the advantage
Was glad to see Liquid didn't have to beta test each and every boss this time around while other guilds farmed gear and waited. Well deserved win, gg!
I already watched this hour long video in three minutes. It was a banger.
Damn y’all clapped the competition this tier.
Yo, I got super excited hearing Rito Village playing in the background :D
OMG Paragon!! Grils in the roster!!
Hope to God blizzard makes the next expansion raids drop globally. Thanks for addressing that first and foremost. Also GG you guys deserve the W.
Also on the note where people have asked if they would travel, Scripe hits on that fact that splits on a different server wouldn't be easy
I am sick of the guys from Echo whining every time they lose. Literally the worst sportsmanship I’ve ever seen in esports. You guys absolutely smashed sark. What 30 to 40 pulls better than them?
I look at you also as an innovator. The stream coaching the team was such an awesome game changer I feel. Either way congrats man you guys won easily and fair and square. Look forward to next raid.
ngl the entire race i was like damn liquid and echo are hammering but method is right there i was honnestly surprised to see liquid, echo and method progging sark at the same time, normally first and 2nd ar on last boss and 3rd is progging 8/9 sometimes even 7/9, like method "could" have won, realistically of course not but there could have been one of those "miracle pulls" where somehow they just kill it, im pumped for next tier and hopefully method can build off this tier going into the next
I missed this Q&A but I would have loved to see what Max would have thought about if they just kept doing splits longer and chicken-race Echo into starting mythic first.
lol bro that JB clip is PERFECT, grats max great race
So nice just be a fan of the game so you can appreciate the race as a whole. And no matter who wins it's a happy end for you
I think the gearing difference is due to D4 dropping so soon. Can see the playerbase dropping a bit once it comes out. We're just gonna have to wait until next patch and see if you gear just as fast
i definitely agree with magmorax - my guild is just bunch of people in social group, and magmorax - or the hydra - jsut fel extremely weak on heroic - like we needed several pulls on rakshok to learn the fight well, the bomb boss took us also like 5-10 pulls.. magmorax was killed on first pull - only mechanic on hc was need to soak immediately and not have stacks, but the stacks dropped so quickly, so it just felt like imposibble to die to that anyway
Happy Max post race q&a!!!! Woohoo
That Jd clip is gold
There is so many factors to consider with what could have been different if it's same time release. Like they 1 shot a lot of bosses after you because they could see how you did it and clap them. But in a same release time do they still 1 shot? Do they take longer? It could also likely cause one side to have to become overnight raiders while the other can stay day time, is that gonna be considered fair? Chances are you will still get GG BUT! from that too. Never gonna be able to make it a 100% balanced and fair situation but I think in the heat of the moment a lot of people forget that. The only times I feel it's a let down is when situations like Raz happens where it felt more like they gave Echo the win because they wanted everyone home for Christmas. Could/would Echo of still won without it? Quite possibly and that's fine they'd deserve it and either way they still played REALLY well. But just under these specific circumstances it feels bad.
I think you lot absolutely smashed this raid and I love seeing you guys win. Not just because I'm a big fan of you lot but because it's also nice to see a different winner. Not just one team year after year. It's why I struggle with MDI sometimes, at least watching any match Echo plays because its like...usually a pretty predetermined Echo has won situation which gets boring. At least for me. But anyway I ramble a lot. GG on your well played win. Looking forward to seeing what comes next!
I've never been passionate about teams more than I was about the game itself personally
JB has a good point, and if that is what they were doing.. I get it. But they were dumb af to not do it with global release change. Because those walls have been evening it out a bit previously. If someone is about to get way ahead, there was usually a wall somewhere for catchup. I think Ive seen that go both ways, but especially early-mid walls/bugs would quickly eat away a couple hours of your day/advantage.
Amen to shorter fights. CE raiding in Shadowlands was alright in Castle Nathria, since even Council and SLG were dead by 10 minutes or less, or you had wiped. Most of SoD was good, except KTZ's abhorrent design (even after the 'rework'). However, Sylvanas progression was a SLOG. Multiple 14:35 wipes in a row to berserk, and you're sleepwalking through P1, P2, and the first 2 platforms almost every pull. It feels so much better to prog intense 7-8 minute fights than 12+ minutes where only the final 2-3 minutes are insane.
Girl raider pov brought to you by Carls Jr
Gratz on the victory from an Echo stan :P You deserved it. Also it possible to get a hold of that arcane mage UI?
I think it's 100% certainly the case, that if global release actually happens, the argument is just going to change into, "Huh...! Well NA has the advantage, because it releases for us during 2am, and we're forced into a bad sleep schedule."
the most important thing for mythic raids is.... THAT THE TRASH MOBS DROP MORE EPICS!!!!!11
I'm genuinely curious about what culture differences specifically are obstacles for Echo and Liquid. Not for the sake of drama but because cultural differences are fun to explore. It would be like those videos about international couples talking about their difficulties... except it's two competing guilds instead of a couple lol.
Love the thoughts about "token girls" in the riad.
To be fair.....most of last races were completly fuckd up by bosses that were ( probably not randomly ) overtuned and the race kinda depended on who was logging right after blizzard decided to nerf them. Quite sure blizzard dont have any agenda on who wins the race but for sure felt they were overtuning bosses to stretch the race artificially.
This man is so fuckin impressive
The reason of people complaining when you guys win and not echo is that you have the advantage. Not your problem tho! Would be so nice with global release or a tournament server for the guilds going for the race. I am an echo fan in the races but love seeing EU vs NA and due to time zones allways seeing one of the guilds active as hell. Gogogo!
I do understand the problem with tournament realms tho but splits sucks. Done em myself some years back and it feels horrible. Not having em on a tournament realm tho would be interesting as it is more alike what "normal players" do.
Curious if Echo will even stream the endboss progg next tier at all.
Im curious why evoker seems to not be so viable this raid. Can you explain your healing team a bit more?
Where did he get his PC wall paper from? Looks good
Idea for guardian druid they need another fur. They have iron fur they need like mithril fur that gives them defense for magic. Maybe like a 80/20 DR. So like iron fur gives 80% of it's effect to phys and 20% to magic DR and mithril fur is the other way around 80% of the effect to DR magic and 20% to physical. Reason I think the split would be because almost no bosses are full one damage type these days and the skill of knowing when you start switching and ramping up the opposite fur type would be pretty good skill.
I played guardian fairly regularly for almost all of shadowlands it and really always came down to why don't have to a way to handle magic that isn't just out heal it because that is silly design.
Mage is 1 of 3 classes who benefit from doing bomb.
-Max
Me: what are the other two?!?!
What was the off-stream strat liquid came up with? Anyone? I can't watch the whole stream looking for the part :(
It obviously wasnt a fair race, but putting the blame on Liquid is ludacris. Wp to both guilds, hopefully a new format can come so there is no debate after a race.
I think its weird that they dont start at the same time. Like the argument is that they can copy the strat, but never actually played it out. Whether it matters or not imo they just should start at the same time and battle it out.
If people think a raid is badly tuned if the top 40 players in the world get to a boss at the correct gear level and kill it in 2 days, that's crazy. I swear they need to just make Mythic have a base ilvl when you enter it and then you can earn Mythic loot inside to increase your Mythic ilvl. For example you enter at any ilvl you want and you get scaled to 430. Bosses drop gear 435-450. The end boss will be really hard but you can kill it at 430 ilvl. You still have progression (arguably more progression than you do now) and you can tune the raid for an ilvl you know everyone will have. Also this lets people play whatever alts they want since you just enter at 430 ilvl without having to grind 20 alts and do 60 splits an hour.
the whole raid is under tuned, if your able to 1 shot most mythic bosses and none of them are 50 pull bosses up to the last boss with a 430 ilvl and hc gear is maxed at 441, its quite reasonable to say its under tuned. i mean look how much of a joke magmorax is for a 7th of 9 boss raid. mythic killed in what was normal lvl gear upgraded. not 100% sure on this but i think sludgefist had as many pulls required to kill that as all aberrus combined.
@@plamerj1234 Can you post your mythic log please? The top 40 people in the world should be able to run over the raid. If it's so undertuned and so easy, I want to see your 9/9 mythic.
@@psyonicpanda why should they be able to run it over like it wasnt even challenging ? tell me how this made a good spectacle, they did 3 days of splits and the whole mythic raid in under a week. how to tell me you dont play wow, without telling me you dont play wow, if you think this was ''good'' balancing.
@palmer123 This is amazing balancing for the average player. Plenty of us are fine with not balancing for the top 40 players.
@@hr329085the mechanics are fine, no hectic positional fights like vectis was. but the numbers are off. with the way blizz does nerf bosses after race ends anyway (as they have in aberrus already) it still makes it open to everyone to get cutting edge. are you saying its good that mythic was completed with ease in the equivalent of normal gear upgraded.
Add the patch on Tuesday and Wed in EU, open the raid portals on Thursday after each maint is done by hotfixing the portals to open at a global time. Done. Next problem please.
One team is playing during the day, the other is having to play into the wee hours of the morning. If NA or EU servers have issues one team is screwed. If EU servers or bosses have issue Blizz EU support are mostly all asleep. If the fight goes to reset, the NA reset is first.
So... is the next reset still Tuesday for NA and Wednesday for EU? You going to lock the gate again until Thursday? Also, arbitrary changes just for 2-3 guilds is beyond stupid and not good for business.
i wanted to see your Emzy's (the girl on the team) nerd scream but didnt see it on cam, does anyone have it?
As a big Echo/EU fan i actually liked Liquid winning this time. I just like how close it is.
Would be pathetic to just see one team own every tier!
However i might be abnormal in that sense tho. I like esports for the skill of the players not really for the tribalism of it all.
The only argument I see for global release would be joined servers, NA + EU. If nothing terrible happens, for general playerbase its super weird to have reset midday, or during the evening or whenever, and outside you guys (the top 3), there is no reason ANY other ppl would benefit… cool, I could play patch 8 hours sooner than before, but Im gonna be doing weekly keys the moment I come home, because at 18:00 is reset 😂😂 it cant be.
I am a Echo fan, and i follow the race on both sides and appreciate the close races.
Even though Liquid won i still think the difficulty was okay-ish for the race, i think if magmorax was a bit harder then length would have been quite a bit better. For me as a non RWF player i like the difficulty of it since it makes it easier for me to both clear the raids for loot and push m+ without it taking up all of my time.
I also believe Liquid played better than Echo this race, from my perspective it was very obvious on Echo of Neltharion with handling the no WA mechanic (this might also be influenced by my sporadic watch times).
I hope we can just have global release so all of this BS surronding it goes away, it really taints the event...
All this talk about the worst behaviour from Echo and Liquid fans really reminds me of hooliganism that we see in other sports, and i do not think we should take those people as an example of the majority of fans, so i think we should stop lumping those people in with regular fans (like me) that do not take to reddit and twitter to shit on people just because the team they are rooting for lost.
Anyway, great race and i am looking forward to the next one :D
Glad you guys won, cos now you can get back to your best content. Undercover drunk raid leading!
21:00 I do think there's a clear difference between pulling off stream for a couple of hours and not streaming for over a day for pulls.
32:45 Except for Gingi lol. That dude needs to grow up hard. He's actually such a baby.
100%, you guys fucking blasted on Sarkareth felt like a completely different level of play vs Raz in VOTI
best raid since antorus
The xenoblade music in the background around 8:30 threw me off
Didn’t nagura get a couple world firsts so it’s not like emsy getting wf as a girl isnt a new thing
I don't think they can make a raid that takes longer that a week without bosses being broken for extended periods of time.
isnt Nagura the first girl to win world fist?
What is Maxs desktop wallpaper? Anyone know?
If you type in "Dragon Isles Wall Paper" into images you should find it towards the top
you know, every competition has rules, why don't the guilds get together and work on a rulebook, guilds that want to be part of the race would know what to adhere to, you could pool some of the profits and maybe help smaller upcoming guilds
then it wouldn't matter what blizzard does or doesn't, and people could keep their sleep schedules
I mean like make it time spent not just in the raid but including splits as well, maybe agree upon a maximum time between end boss kills to account for copying tactics, so if for example liquid kills the end boss and were ahead most of the time for them to be knocked off the first place the next guild must be within a specific timeframe, not just clear it faster, obviously only time actually streamed would count towards overall time spent and agree on a cut off date, so the race is actually over within the next reset of the end boss kill, sure the actual win would be a bit less climactic but other guilds would suddenly get a better chance that don't have the level of money behind them, also the charities would run at least a full week or two
what do you think, a possible solution or too much to ask?
oh and of course well done you deserved to win
FatSharkYes was awsome this tier
far from one of first guild/race that had females on team, easy name one of your casters Naguura and Paragon had Xenophics are just two name that camer to mind as you said it, im sure there are more but thats whats great about Esport I think thats the only sport where we all are equal and endresult will have a very hard time to say that gender made an important part in who won
I wish there was a global release i dont care who wins i just like watching and the people whining about the release make it worse
hey Bart... you there?
So if liquid wins again wouldnt the same excuse be used again?!?
yes, and it will be for the rest of time as long as things stand the way they are. A lot of people are unwilling to admit their team made mistakes, even if they performed at a level that is still very impressive and greater than 99.9995% of the player base. Liquid and Echo have both had their good and bad raids, their fortunate and tragic breaks. That's why we watch. The fact that people cant hang it up and say "well, here's what we need to do better next time" and instead spend weeks getting more and more upset about something they cant change is ultimately proof why eugenics was an idea that was given up on far too soon.
Yeah when Liquid won Nyalotha and Castle Nathria in BFA and Shadowlands, a lot of Echo fans said that it was because they had a 16 hour head start or w/e it is, and then again now, and then when Liquid loses, all the Echo fanboys will say something along the lines "HAHAHAH IMAGINE HAVING A 16 HOUR HEAD START AND STILL LOSING HAHAHA SO BAD KEKW LLLLLLL" its basically a lose/lose situation for Liquid, no matter what happens
druids weaving and magic mitigation. people who say stack health are special.
Sergio(Sloppymutts/Painuser/Bigthomas) analyzed that you guys should have gotten more sleep
i got an anogoy for the race. its ly the Olympics, NA comes for open ceremony, EU comes 1 day to half day late. and Asian guilds come at closing ceremony. imo you cant be a "world race" without having same release times. you dont see olympics to have differnet countries come at different times during the olympics. would make it unfair.
could just call it a speed run if anyhting
can anyone link me the video that max was with gingi on mdi ?
ua-cam.com/video/8pIE8sRhtnk/v-deo.html
It’s on his channel, should be easy to find 😁
Unpopular opinion but I honestly think a raid should not be able to be cleared within the first week. Mythic raiding is still one of if not the most difficult task in the game. So I feel like blizzard should either just make progression layer's where u can only defeat 3 bosses per week and on the third week you can finally get to the last boss depending on how long the raid is ofcourse. Or they should just over buff some bosses so it becomes a roadblock so the players have to either outgear it or wait for blizzard to nerf it. Yes I know this sounds stupid but mythic raiding should not be something u can blast through the first week of it's release in my opinion.
I feel bad about this release timing issue because it seems that you never seem to get credit for performing well.
It baffles me as to why this STILL gets so much publicity. You don't start the same day. If you EVER lose to echo you're just straight up shitting the bed. How is it even considered a competition?
Liquid won, but it feels pretty bad if you don't stream the full time.
I feel like the big thing with the race that fans need to learn to cope with is that no matter what the outcome is, whatever the "unfair" advantage was, sports are not fair no matter what and everyone who choose to participate do so knowing this. For example, in basketball it is an insane disadvantage to be less than 6ft tall, like an unfathomable disadvantage. This is why basketball teams are almost exclusively 7ft goliaths. But every so often an absolutely amazing player comes around that is 5'9'' that plays at a international level. When those players show up you don't hear fans belittle every single basketball player with things like "He only scored cuz he's 7ft tall" that would be insane. But for some reason when the immutable characteristic is the way the sport works (i.e. the race start time difference), something which none of the teams like but all of the teams accept to participate with, there's a huge fuss. If you agree to the terms of the race, you shouldn't complain when another team wins. Especially when the teams that are allegedly disadvantaged by this have won multiple times before.
Sports are never fair, they cannot be fair, it is impossible. What sports can be is competetive. If the rules of the game allows the race to be anyone's game, that's everything you can ask for. Just some random rambling food for thought.
Starting time difference is not the same as having different heights on basketball players. That would be more like a skill/gear difference. The time difference is more like letting some people start a marathon an hour early and telling the rest to catch up. Both teams participate because they are not in a position to change the time themselves.
@@biray4710 It is exactly the same for as far as the comparision I'm drawing. Height is an undeniable advantage in basketball and it is inmutable, yet short people choose to pursue a career in basketball all the time and sometimes reach internationa levels of skill.
The whole point is that even if we were to admit that it's a massive advantage to get to start early with the RWF (which it provably isn't, hence the slingshot effect). it still doesn't warrant participants and fans of participants to be sore losers and completely ruin the achivement of the victor with vile harassment and claims of foul play.
GG,,,, But,,,, i think you actually really clapped =D GG
I too have roughly 4 female players on my roster and i too treat them the same as everyone else and i purge those who cant control themselves and try to act like wow is a dating game.
i have a solution for all the global release time BS, LTT hosts the venue, and put them all under 1 roof.
Max, I am curious what you think about a potential solution to one of your problems.
The way Bungie does its raid race contest mode is by making it a dynamic ilvl shift that basically has everyone with contest mode on -30 to the mobs (which in Destiny terms hurts A LOT). WoW could implement a hybrid version of that and the FF14 method, where you have a min ilvl, but you dynamically scale the players back down to the min, and have the mobs have set damage values for contest mode. That would make it easier for Blizz to tune, and then when contest mode is over, the ilvl "advantage" is allowed again.
That plus global raid unlock 12-16 hrs after NA reset and syncing those in contest mode to a time/power level would work.
I wanted to support you guys, so I bought a shirt. Imagine paying almost $60 after shipping for a shirt that is listed at $35 and over a week later it still hasn't shipped
You could always decide on your own coordinated "start time" with Echo and other top guilds. This is a community event after all. Note: I actually rooted for you this tier cause I think you were done wrong last tier and the 3 week race was ridiculous in SL. I think you would have beaten Echo even if you started at the same time this tier. So just agree upon a pseudo global release with top 20 guilds and hard start at that hour and it should be OK.
He doesn’t really want that, he’s just saying that because he knows they will never have a global release. I know teenagers that have the ability to sync times.
Not going to happen due to time zone issues.
I genuinely think Andy was nowhere near the level of naowh in this race
Kinda surprised how the length of the fight for the last boss wasnt really talked about. Last few tiers its been double lust end bosses... but the fight is super short
28:55 Cap
lol yeah, like... why even cap about this
Is Max related to Seth Rogan?
its not competitive like max said if it was going to be , global release so there is no EXCUSES!!!!
my raid leader is a girl and she treats me like a child
It makes me kinda sad that the people who actually participate in the race seem to be pretty mature about it for the most part but the fans are so immature to the teams. Maybe its just a competition thing and they haven't competed in anything they care about. Idk, just makes me sad such a cool event gets tarnished by childish EU/NA fanboys who only seem to care about who wins and not the actual race itself.
I don't get why no one counts time from patch release to last boss death...
Because anyone that knows anything about the race is that Liquid loses any headstart with beta testing bosses / strat creation that other guilds get to copy and not waste time on.
It’s really nice to see max shit on all the double standard “turn off stream” praise/shit show.
Couldn’t believe how everyone was praising liquid for doing what they criticized echo for doing a few tiers ago