100% agree with Dorki. Bad camera angles are the difference between enjoying a dungeon and not. Not being able to see the dungeon, your own character, your teammates, enemies....its not enjoyable. Its like playing a game in 240p. And taking avoidable damage and/or dying doesnt feel deserved because you're staring half at the staff on your character's back and half at the inside of a mobs body. I prefer to see the game I'm playing if at all possible lol
100% agree. There shouldn’t be anything that can get in the cameras way at max distance. Even if there are trees, it shouldn’t exist for the camera looking down through it.
Waycrest is legit my least favorite dungeon this season, and I would say 60% of the reason why is because of the bad camera angles. It's so bad every time I do that god forsaken place I'm just running on tilt the entire time.
100% agree, having a fucked camera is so annoying and unfun. Max's take on that was super bad. Seems like Max has quite a few L takes when it comes to visual stuff, which surprises me.
@@shadowdragon8168 It's a very confusing take by Max for sure. Getting hit by stuff and dying literally JUST because you can't see anything with a tree in your face or your camera up your ass is the very definition of toxic.
Came for the vibes with dorki, max, growl, drat, was not disappointed. Also it had that old dude that sits on his porch yelling about everything possible.
@@Comatose1231 I love JB, but his discription of JB is very acurate. The old guy sitting on his porch yelling about everything possible, can be very lovable aswell.
@@Comatose1231 bro give it up. You tried to make a point, it failed. You got called out and now you're futility trying to say "just trolling bro". Pretty sad. Take the L and move on with your life before you embarrass yourself further.
It's interesting that you guys love all the dungeons that low 20's healers hate. High enough for those challenging bosses to be truly hard to heal, but not high enough for DPS to know how to press defensives properly. The amount of times I had DPS not pressing their walls until after the damage event, reacting to getting low, in keys like AA or HoV... made me hate healing those.
Amen. Never understood why people pressed their defensives until AFTER they get fucking nuked by an unavoidable AOE. Like, there's literally nothing happening after it so why even press the button lmao.
Like when someone has the bleed on iridikron and they don't use any defensives on the soak. Warlock died and was like "i hit death's pact" yea a 30% health shield aint stopping most of that, use unending resolve for straight damage reduction for something that important
@@1un4cy I main a healer, so im more ore less in tune when to use defensives. Yesterday while playing an alt had a healer who just ignored me when i got the dot 3 times in a row :) i would die before the aoe soak starts. Good thing we had Battle rezes :) this was in a 20. I was baffled how he had timed a 20 before.
BFA s3 affix was the most fun ever. The ability to enter Shadowrealm and skip whatever you wanted. Created many fun diverse routes. also Twilight dev was rly fun
Not that anyone is reading this, but Galakrond's Fall is kinda nice, because even if you fail it, you feel like you could do better. The dificultyness in it feels achievable. Unlike Everbloom or DHT. Where you just hope for the best the whole run
Algathar bird boss might be the worst boss this season, it was broken in like 7 different ways. The bleed being cauterized was dumb, the fire swirlies having terrible visuals was annoying, the ball things would bug out a lot, mages could infinitely kite the boss, los'ing the screech, etc. No clue how that boss didnt just get its numbers gutted to make it free if they werent going to bother fixing it at all
Sometimes the bird adds before the boss just decided they didn't want to show up like a few weeks in and would brick a key until people figured out how to get them unstuck. And even then I think you needed certain classes in order to do it. I just know I wasn't one of the classes
Obviously none of them healed Nokhud as a Prevoker. Where your dps is all the way the fuck in Antarctica on the 2nd boss, so none of your spells reach them and your aoe spells only hit half the party. And then people getting one shot by the adds on the last boss. C Tier dungeon at best.
I know this is older, but it’s kinda weird that they mention a dungeon being linear is bad but also say “you have to go the right way” in things like brackenhide? Is it just the _idea_ of non-linearity that’s wanted?
Azure vault was fun for competent groups that knew how to capitalize on the flexibility. I can confirm that around the +20 range it was one of the least fun dungeons out there.
I was pugging top 1% of keys really early in the season as Rdru. And pugs in algathar would basically say “let’s hope this Druid can get us through vexamus”
Dragonflight Season 1 was my first season doing both keys and raids, I will say I was utterly terrible at both the game and my class (enhance shammy.) Personally I thought Nokhund, Azure Vault and Temple were giga swamp ass, although I would love to revisit those dungeons with my improved knowledge and skill.
My fury warrior brain has some differences: Rise is great, constant cleaves, first room is pog, sand room is a constant stream of reasonable mobs, and cones feel satisfying to bait on multiple bosses. Courser as a possible drop is fun, and in the 43 Rises I spammed in a row for Gorehowl I found myself enjoying it more and more. Still my favorite S3 high key to do, as long as people have just the smallest of IQs to manage baiting cones on tyr/battlefield WM is terrible. Waiting the 2 seconds for sisters to swap eyes is cringe. Second boss can just choose to ruin a specific target repeatedly. You can't spell reflect Lord Waycrest's dot because it pops on him, which then pops on everyone in melee. Waiting for the tank to pull groups out into the courtyard is a snoozer, and the hallways are terrible for storming, sanguine, etc if you don't, so you *have* to. Throne is awesome. Getting targetted by every Sentinel pack by Crushing Depths and spell reflecting a 1.6m dot onto the enemy is pure dopamine. Third boss has some wonky scares with flame shocks and totems but the dungeon as a whole is fine. Atal'Dazar is my most feast or famine dungeon. The pulls feel great as a dps but there's so many required interrupts and protection bubbles. Can't spell reflect hex or, once again, it'll pop on people. Final boss has a satisfying spell reflect but you have to get to the very end of the dungeon to learn if people know how to deal with spiders or else your key is insta-bricked. Neltharus is one of my least favorite just because everything is the same color. Remember when the Lost Dwarves trinket active was nigh indistinguishable from the trillions of AoE on the ground in neltharus? The mechanics are genuinely fun it's just got that D4 clarity issue in the dungeon where everything is the same color.
The sand area is absolutely insufferable on any class that needs to put up dots or ramp at all to get things going. Some classes are just stuck doing less than tank damage because there is no real way for them to ramp damage or generate resources.
Insight for S2: From someone who does light pushing, but mostly farms weekly 20s, the start of the season and god comp part was a huge issue for those types of keys. They were much togher then they ever needed to be for non-god comp groups. Anyone who was the guilds Warlock, Rogue, any other healer, non bear tank and other things was so bad. It was infinitely tougher to do then any other season by alot. I rerolled guardian cause it was the nearly the only tank being invited.
Probably the hardest to heal non legion season ever to a point where it was becoming toxic for non hardcore/pro healers. My highest timed Uldaman was a 17. The only non legion dungeons i did not time at 19+ level. Pug healers were simply unable to heal that key. I've seen relatively high ranked pug healers struggling to heal this dungeon in a 15-16 tyr. I was surprised to see Uldaman that high for me it would have been easily ranked F.
One thing I will say, is I hated going to Azure Vault. And the only reason is bc there would always be someone that just never decided to learn the mechanics of it every. single. time. I didn't run high keys that season, but people would butt pull, tank not have the right route. It was bad almost every time.
Interesting to see such a different perspective. Absolutely hated Underrot in S2. That area around second boss was so painful. Also I don't get why are they asking for more mobs that don't do anything. If they don't do anything whats the point? Take a pen and draw more mobs on your monitor then.
As an entirely soloplayer who pugs, watching this video has really shown me that people who play in comps and in groups have entirely different opinions on dungeons. Maybe the playerbase gets better in the higher end at like 27+ but as someone more casual who only does 23-26 range, seeing dungeons that give me literal PTSD from pugging being placed so high is shocking. You're telling me that people don't die to the last 2 bosses on halls of valor, any boss of ruby, 2nd and 3rd for Underrot??? (And don't get me started on Murozonds Rise) That people actually do mechanics ?? That's crazy, maybe I need to find a group to play with 💀
I think peoples opinion of it would change with the current set of affixes, I just remember a lot of the affixees being a pain. I think its a bit overrated, the tree boss area is all most people remember it for.
@@livvw well yes definitely, and also, there's several major different frames of reference for how you view them, based on time, and the level of content you wanted to do. I just casually did KSM on a pres evoker and a Prot warrior, so I'm certainly not a bleeding edge player, which makes a lot more sense why I would place AA as top tier, it's just fun, meme worthy, and not overly stressful on ~16/17
Healer (didn't get anywhere near high keys in S1): AA was fine, once ppl learned how the tree boss worked it was pretty puggable. CoS was cool with the profession stuff (I'm an alchemist so I got to poison the guy), and the middle bit was kinda neat but then the boss in the overhang sucked and the last boss was just okay. I really liked Nokhud as a healer. Tempest on Tyran weeks felt very rewarding to complete, the best week that season was the bursting/grievous week for me doing Nokhud. Stacking on the centaurs, activating the ballistae for Granith(?) and everything ppl needed to do for last boss was good. My least favorite dungeons were probably Nelth's Lair and Brackenhide. Not having a poison dispel on BH made going left after first boss extremely obnoxious and Nelth's Lair the one-shot earthquake thing was annoying with no indicator. Now I know about addons to time those so I probably wouldn't have trouble with it anymore but still, not the greatest design.
@@Aggrofool no, the dungeon in general sucks without disease dispels but quite a few classes have those. The left route immediately after the first boss has a bunch of mobs that teleport to people and inflict I THINK a haste reducing DoT poison that kinda trucks if it stacks up a bit.
I feel like I'm the only person that dislikes underrot. I enjoyed it in bfa because I only played that last season and the pilar skips were a ton of fun but I was only doing like 18-20 as it was my first time playing in 6+ years. In season two I think I had everything at 25 or higher but underrot was only a 22 or 23 it was so bad. Everyone I ran with was bad at worms, over slapping kicks, and the 2nd boss bricked so many runs. Also BH had to be my favorite one this expansion but only if you had the god comp or something close to it. So many different things you could do and so much trash you would pull you could do or skips you could do and non required a shroud. Tho you did need a priest or the enjoyment was bricked.
I feel like all the traveling and portal stuff and dungeons would just result in a slightly shorter timer if they weren’t in there. Maybe that’s a cope but designwise blizzard has to be thinking about the fact that doing that travel takes time, and therefore that incrementally moves up the timer fortunate to the travel time time
Algeth'ar was the ultimate noob detector. I would calculate the probability of timing the key, based on the number of players that took the 5% vers buff.
@@andred8046 that is the larger portion of the playerbase and your line of thought seems to be shared by blizzard. That may well be one of the reasons why player population has been going down over the years but keep that elitist attitude as the game dies a slow death of a thousand cuts.
@@andred8046 stupid take there is a diff between not completing 20 and not being full premade voice com a lot of dungeons should have been put lower cause they are miserable if you are not full premade
As a tank. Neltharus was probably my favorite dungeon. When the chains hit just right, best feeling in the world. Halls was top 3 with everbloom also being a personal favorite. Rise and fall are also really fun for me, alot of my friends hate it but its rounds out my top 5 persobally. But nelth is the only one i put in S
I mean you love Everbloom if you're playing VDH and Prot Paladin all day. Do it on another tank that can't trivialize the Magic Damage or DreadPetal damage amp/slow. Then it's an absolute D tier dungeon.
I think if the third boss and trash didn’t one shot tanks on every mechanic that wasn’t a prot pal it would’ve been great. Last boss was oof without priest
@@LATHSPELL70 i liked mobs interaction with spell reflection i remember taunting those Shas to do big dam with spell reflection and also save tank in high keys obvs coms group
Aesthetically, I love Halls of Infusion. Anything that reminds me of Ulduar or Throne of Thunder gets a thumbs up from me. As for M+, I think I did like an 8 of these dungeon once in that season (after returning to the game because shadowlands) and for whatever reason my group couldn't los behind the ice blocks for shit! I'd drop the hell outta Underrot cause I practically lived in there during BFA
Maybe I missed you guys touching on this for Atal'Dazar, but the one thing I always feel is that it feels like the dungeon only really has one boss (that's overtuned). The first three bosses are so cakewalk tier, and you only really find out how long the dungeon is going to take you when you get to Yazma. Absolutely hated that about it.
The fact Thundering was so bad of an affix that they just gave up on seasonal affixes entirely, after shadowlands season 3 and 4 were both absolute bangers.
nokhud was kinda good, my main gripe is that that key felt like 90% of failures you didnt even know if it was a fail until the very end really. and sometimes that last boss just fucked someone randomly. waycrest should be S tier, the m+ fixes over the years have made it so great to me. like no sanguine in waycrest is awesome lol.
AV was so fun because of the different routes and skips you could do If they bring it back in s4 they better let us jump down again or i'm gonna be pissed.
Spot on. My thoughts exactly. Halls of valor being rated that high I had to just skip to the end to see what the ratings were. Can’t sit here for 2 hours and listen to these out of touch takes
Everyone has different experiences of course and that's fine. Keys that are easy to farm for gear are probably often rated higher for people not pushing really high keys. I don't think what would fix dungeons for top players would ruin it for lower levels though ans I hope blizzard realise that
I'd love to have gone back and done season 1 without all the garbage affixes. Thundering, quaking and explosive made a lot of dungeons toxic for overlapping boss mechanics with these affixes.
I think Rise would feel a lot, lot better if the route was cleaner and there was significantly less mandatory wasted time. Between RP, portals and just meh boss design, the key just feels slow and sluggish. It's near the polar opposite of Fall -- generous timer and solid release points makes the key very forgiving, whereas Rise is a key where the timer straight up lies to you and one wipe pretty much means a dead run.
I'm pretty casual, I am doing 20-24s this season and dont push into high keys. But I don't quite understand why people are so opposed to Augmentation Evokers? Can someone explain? :) Thanks
Because in season 2 when they came up they became required to the point where the god comp was so much better and it was a result of which class interacts best with Aug the possible key level went up my like 3 or 4 if u had an Aug
I think its time to bring someone who pug keys, the fact that you consider normal the scaling of the last boss in Nokhud is insane, that Boss was a pug serial killer wasting al lyour time (23-25ish)
max thinking that his pugging 25-28s is the same experience as pugging as a whole kept triggering me lol, ur "pugging" in a group where everyone has like 3300+ io. not even remotely close to pugging 15-20s
HoV was kinda ass but tbh as a prot pally in like +29s and 30s it always felt sooooooo good to just call out the Fenryr fixate and just BoP the target and blast Fenryr for the whole 10s fixate. I like that type of counterplay. Its all physical damage so i can BoP it and we blast. I will agree that its a little ass backtracking a lot and my god Skovald and the 4 kings mini bosses was just ugh can this be over already.
It's weird that they seem to rate dungeons based on if **** one shot them or not while me a casual player doing 24-25 keys and pugging healers i would rate dungeons based on if the pug healer can heal the rot damage or not (with me helping him with my CDs and pot). Everbloom would have been much lower in my ranking. I tried to like this dungeon but finding a pug healer able to heal the rot damage in this dungeon is super hard. I've timed both Murozond and TotT in 24 and i feel like i could time them in 25 (given the opportunity) yet i'm still stuck in 23 for Everbloom despite many attempts to time it in a 24 just because the pug healer can't heal the rot damage and there's too many interrupts to do and i'm a range so i can't help much on that.
Hey, i have a take on keys scaling up to "oneshot" territory What if they tuned the keys for the absolutely highest, and oneshot mechanics would do like, 110% of your health, so any defensives or AOE raid CD would save you, and tune healing thoughput on each pack etc etc at this high keylevel And then downscale it to a +2 from there. And whatever you end up on at +2 becomes your baseline?
Court and Shadowmoon are singularly responsible for capping IO score from untimed keys at +20. They were wildly out of sync with the other S1 dungeons.
Dratnos is always the best guest for me (JUST MY OPPIINIIOONNN!!! 😂). He gives both positive and negative feedback, and in such a level headed delivery. Most of the guests just seem like a ball of negativity, and just rage dump non-stop. It just sucked all the joy out of things. Also, being nothing but positive isn't useful either, but that is way more rare of an occurrence 😂
I like your tier list, just some adjustment : TOTT D tier, ToJS C tier, Algethar academy S tier, Ruby life pool S tier, Season 2 F tier (Neither you play one of the meta spec, nor you're out of >+20) Just 1 god comp deserve Z tier to me. It was a terrible time to play M+ for any spec other than god comp, and I am saying that as a healer.
I don’t hear much discussion about spawn check points, but I feel like good designs here have major influence over our perception of a favorable or not dungeon. Fall, great check points. Rise, tragic if you wipe at all between boss 2 and 4.
@@melipnos mostly the 2nd boss and the trash leading up to it i didn't find fun at all but also the last boss was infuriating in some pugs where they would not bait the frontal properly. the 3rd boss was fun but could be a disaster on tyrannical weeks.
my top timed key currently is fall..... we had 30 deaths..... and still almsot 2x'd it. that key is so fucking free it's crazy when it doesn't get timed.
Nokhud Offensive being in B tier instead of F or D tier instantly loses them credibility. The Dragonflight dungeon pool aside from Algethar's and Azure Vault is probably the worst since M+ came out in Legion.
Waycrest manor is the biggest upset for me on this list. The dungeon is so much easier if you play mage or even 2x mage, and that shouldn't be the case. for me there's too much movement on the bosses/curse/interupts, it's limited what comps you can bring on 26+
I have a love hate relationrelationship with ship with Court of starts. Me and my buddies ran that dungeon non stop cause 3 of us needed wet stone and also the ring. Overall we ran that dungeon around 100 times before we got it on all the chars. Never played legion so that’s why I enjoyed it a bit more. But ye after a 100 tries I don’t want to see that place ever again
Opinions vary wildly between people who just do their 16-20s for vault and heroic gear, people who push low-mid 20s, and people pushing 27-28+ and in super competent groups
All I'm saying is that Arcway is the better Suramar dungeon... Court of Stars is only "good" because it was the only 3 quick dungeon next to Maw of Souls
A lot of pugs didn't enjoy Algethar? What? Lmao, I don't think I ever talked to anyone who DIDN'T like it and think it was one of (if not THE) best dungeon in S1.
5 adds 13 minutes in is crazy. Is my UA-cam bugging out? Edit* yep an ad every 2 minutes of a 2 hour video is crazy. Not sure what's happening but I really want to watch this video but literally can't.
Throne of the Tides should have been a D tier because it is under the C
God damnit
Up!!! Up!
Well done
booooooooo
You’ve earned a 👍 for this terrible joke
100% agree with Dorki. Bad camera angles are the difference between enjoying a dungeon and not. Not being able to see the dungeon, your own character, your teammates, enemies....its not enjoyable. Its like playing a game in 240p. And taking avoidable damage and/or dying doesnt feel deserved because you're staring half at the staff on your character's back and half at the inside of a mobs body. I prefer to see the game I'm playing if at all possible lol
100% agree. There shouldn’t be anything that can get in the cameras way at max distance. Even if there are trees, it shouldn’t exist for the camera looking down through it.
Waycrest is legit my least favorite dungeon this season, and I would say 60% of the reason why is because of the bad camera angles. It's so bad every time I do that god forsaken place I'm just running on tilt the entire time.
100% agree, having a fucked camera is so annoying and unfun. Max's take on that was super bad. Seems like Max has quite a few L takes when it comes to visual stuff, which surprises me.
@@shadowdragon8168 It's a very confusing take by Max for sure. Getting hit by stuff and dying literally JUST because you can't see anything with a tree in your face or your camera up your ass is the very definition of toxic.
Sanguine Depths was my least fave dungeon in SL for this exact reason. Unfortunately I was venthyr so I was constantly getting dragged in by my guild
Came for the vibes with dorki, max, growl, drat, was not disappointed. Also it had that old dude that sits on his porch yelling about everything possible.
Say you don't like JB without saying you don't like JB
@@Comatose1231 I love JB, but his discription of JB is very acurate.
The old guy sitting on his porch yelling about everything possible, can be very lovable aswell.
@@Comatose1231 say you don't follow the memes without saying you don't follow the memes
@@Enigma7767 say you got trolled without saying you got trolled
@@Comatose1231 bro give it up. You tried to make a point, it failed. You got called out and now you're futility trying to say "just trolling bro". Pretty sad. Take the L and move on with your life before you embarrass yourself further.
It's interesting that you guys love all the dungeons that low 20's healers hate. High enough for those challenging bosses to be truly hard to heal, but not high enough for DPS to know how to press defensives properly. The amount of times I had DPS not pressing their walls until after the damage event, reacting to getting low, in keys like AA or HoV... made me hate healing those.
Amen. Never understood why people pressed their defensives until AFTER they get fucking nuked by an unavoidable AOE. Like, there's literally nothing happening after it so why even press the button lmao.
Like when someone has the bleed on iridikron and they don't use any defensives on the soak.
Warlock died and was like "i hit death's pact" yea a 30% health shield aint stopping most of that, use unending resolve for straight damage reduction for something that important
@@1un4cy I main a healer, so im more ore less in tune when to use defensives. Yesterday while playing an alt had a healer who just ignored me when i got the dot 3 times in a row :) i would die before the aoe soak starts. Good thing we had Battle rezes :) this was in a 20. I was baffled how he had timed a 20 before.
BFA s3 affix was the most fun ever. The ability to enter Shadowrealm and skip whatever you wanted. Created many fun diverse routes. also Twilight dev was rly fun
That was S4 since BFA had 3 patches contrary to SL and DF
S3 is the azshara affix btw
Algathar Academy got hard carried by the tree boss area.
you have been identified as a DPS player
@@nilsp9426 that's most of the player base though
As a healer academy was probably the worst key to ever heal in tyran in pugs...
@@yassimchenard243YEP hearing JB get steamrolled on this one over his correct take on Vexamus was frustrating
wrong opinion. dungeon had great pulls as a mage i could spell steal shit, was goated with the sauce.
Ok but the argument about shadowmoon being a free key upgrade can be made about underrot too tho.
They said that, but they still liked the dungeon over others
I was happy Underrot was easy because I hated that dungeon.
Ruby Life Pools was turbo-ass, weird ranking
Not that anyone is reading this, but Galakrond's Fall is kinda nice, because even if you fail it, you feel like you could do better. The dificultyness in it feels achievable. Unlike Everbloom or DHT. Where you just hope for the best the whole run
this tier list is absolutely fucking cooked holy shit
Something finally made you give up the cataclysm mouse
Algathar bird boss might be the worst boss this season, it was broken in like 7 different ways. The bleed being cauterized was dumb, the fire swirlies having terrible visuals was annoying, the ball things would bug out a lot, mages could infinitely kite the boss, los'ing the screech, etc. No clue how that boss didnt just get its numbers gutted to make it free if they werent going to bother fixing it at all
Sometimes the bird adds before the boss just decided they didn't want to show up like a few weeks in and would brick a key until people figured out how to get them unstuck. And even then I think you needed certain classes in order to do it. I just know I wasn't one of the classes
I think this video perfectly portrays the difference between casual players and top end players.
Obviously none of them healed Nokhud as a Prevoker. Where your dps is all the way the fuck in Antarctica on the 2nd boss, so none of your spells reach them and your aoe spells only hit half the party. And then people getting one shot by the adds on the last boss.
C Tier dungeon at best.
You can ask the DPS to stand closer to 2nd boss, and let those who refuse (usually BM hunters) to fend for themselves.
Also had to dragonride in a dungeon with a timer, that sucked pretty hard
@@Telados Dragonriding is mega fast and easy though lol
@@NanoLT It's still not good in a timed dungeon
@@Telados Don't agree at all, it makes absolutely no difference.
Eh ? Azure vault A ? That thing was a living nightmare and i really hope anything similar doesnt happen again
yeah, for anyone running with pugs for the most part, it was a nightmare
I know this is older, but it’s kinda weird that they mention a dungeon being linear is bad but also say “you have to go the right way” in things like brackenhide? Is it just the _idea_ of non-linearity that’s wanted?
Azure vault was fun for competent groups that knew how to capitalize on the flexibility. I can confirm that around the +20 range it was one of the least fun dungeons out there.
I was pugging top 1% of keys really early in the season as Rdru. And pugs in algathar would basically say “let’s hope this Druid can get us through vexamus”
Dragonflight Season 1 was my first season doing both keys and raids, I will say I was utterly terrible at both the game and my class (enhance shammy.) Personally I thought Nokhund, Azure Vault and Temple were giga swamp ass, although I would love to revisit those dungeons with my improved knowledge and skill.
As a scrub player, i enjoy listening to the takes on the higher keys. I wont experience them but dig listening to the opinions over the seasons.
My fury warrior brain has some differences:
Rise is great, constant cleaves, first room is pog, sand room is a constant stream of reasonable mobs, and cones feel satisfying to bait on multiple bosses. Courser as a possible drop is fun, and in the 43 Rises I spammed in a row for Gorehowl I found myself enjoying it more and more. Still my favorite S3 high key to do, as long as people have just the smallest of IQs to manage baiting cones on tyr/battlefield
WM is terrible. Waiting the 2 seconds for sisters to swap eyes is cringe. Second boss can just choose to ruin a specific target repeatedly. You can't spell reflect Lord Waycrest's dot because it pops on him, which then pops on everyone in melee. Waiting for the tank to pull groups out into the courtyard is a snoozer, and the hallways are terrible for storming, sanguine, etc if you don't, so you *have* to.
Throne is awesome. Getting targetted by every Sentinel pack by Crushing Depths and spell reflecting a 1.6m dot onto the enemy is pure dopamine. Third boss has some wonky scares with flame shocks and totems but the dungeon as a whole is fine.
Atal'Dazar is my most feast or famine dungeon. The pulls feel great as a dps but there's so many required interrupts and protection bubbles. Can't spell reflect hex or, once again, it'll pop on people. Final boss has a satisfying spell reflect but you have to get to the very end of the dungeon to learn if people know how to deal with spiders or else your key is insta-bricked.
Neltharus is one of my least favorite just because everything is the same color. Remember when the Lost Dwarves trinket active was nigh indistinguishable from the trillions of AoE on the ground in neltharus? The mechanics are genuinely fun it's just got that D4 clarity issue in the dungeon where everything is the same color.
The sand area is absolutely insufferable on any class that needs to put up dots or ramp at all to get things going. Some classes are just stuck doing less than tank damage because there is no real way for them to ramp damage or generate resources.
Okay cool so we got a comp group tier list but can we get a tier list for pugs because this is not it lol
Insight for S2: From someone who does light pushing, but mostly farms weekly 20s, the start of the season and god comp part was a huge issue for those types of keys. They were much togher then they ever needed to be for non-god comp groups. Anyone who was the guilds Warlock, Rogue, any other healer, non bear tank and other things was so bad. It was infinitely tougher to do then any other season by alot. I rerolled guardian cause it was the nearly the only tank being invited.
Probably the hardest to heal non legion season ever to a point where it was becoming toxic for non hardcore/pro healers. My highest timed Uldaman was a 17. The only non legion dungeons i did not time at 19+ level. Pug healers were simply unable to heal that key. I've seen relatively high ranked pug healers struggling to heal this dungeon in a 15-16 tyr. I was surprised to see Uldaman that high for me it would have been easily ranked F.
One thing I will say, is I hated going to Azure Vault. And the only reason is bc there would always be someone that just never decided to learn the mechanics of it every. single. time. I didn't run high keys that season, but people would butt pull, tank not have the right route. It was bad almost every time.
Chains in Neltharus were hella fun, just like the weapons in NW... I really like dungeon mechanics enabling huge pulls in very uncoordinated pugs
Interesting to see such a different perspective. Absolutely hated Underrot in S2. That area around second boss was so painful. Also I don't get why are they asking for more mobs that don't do anything. If they don't do anything whats the point? Take a pen and draw more mobs on your monitor then.
As a tank, I LOVED Nelth Lair...Guardian MT, loved it in Legion, Loved it when it was brought back this xpac.
As an entirely soloplayer who pugs, watching this video has really shown me that people who play in comps and in groups have entirely different opinions on dungeons. Maybe the playerbase gets better in the higher end at like 27+ but as someone more casual who only does 23-26 range, seeing dungeons that give me literal PTSD from pugging being placed so high is shocking. You're telling me that people don't die to the last 2 bosses on halls of valor, any boss of ruby, 2nd and 3rd for Underrot??? (And don't get me started on Murozonds Rise) That people actually do mechanics ?? That's crazy, maybe I need to find a group to play with 💀
how the fuck do people not absolutely hate the second boss of underrot, that boss ruined that dungeon for me in bfa and still did this time
Great podcast. As this is now a thing that happens consistently - can we get some better volume levels between all the mics.
Algethar and Brackenhide ABSOLUTE s tier. Halls of infusion, court of stars and ShadowMoon burial ground poopoo tier
I absolutely love platforming aspects of the game / dungeons like the rise obstacle, i wish there were more
I will say Nelth's Lair was fun, but only if you were a Warrior. So many reflects.
I love spell reflect ❤
RLP and AV started as HARD F's then turned into an easy S+imo
Academy is straight up goated. Worst case scenario it's a top three lol.
I think peoples opinion of it would change with the current set of affixes, I just remember a lot of the affixees being a pain. I think its a bit overrated, the tree boss area is all most people remember it for.
@@livvwAcademy is better than every dungeon this season. Interesting bosses, good trash and perfect duration. Dungeons in s3 are garbage
@@livvw well yes definitely, and also, there's several major different frames of reference for how you view them, based on time, and the level of content you wanted to do. I just casually did KSM on a pres evoker and a Prot warrior, so I'm certainly not a bleeding edge player, which makes a lot more sense why I would place AA as top tier, it's just fun, meme worthy, and not overly stressful on ~16/17
Healer (didn't get anywhere near high keys in S1): AA was fine, once ppl learned how the tree boss worked it was pretty puggable. CoS was cool with the profession stuff (I'm an alchemist so I got to poison the guy), and the middle bit was kinda neat but then the boss in the overhang sucked and the last boss was just okay.
I really liked Nokhud as a healer. Tempest on Tyran weeks felt very rewarding to complete, the best week that season was the bursting/grievous week for me doing Nokhud. Stacking on the centaurs, activating the ballistae for Granith(?) and everything ppl needed to do for last boss was good.
My least favorite dungeons were probably Nelth's Lair and Brackenhide. Not having a poison dispel on BH made going left after first boss extremely obnoxious and Nelth's Lair the one-shot earthquake thing was annoying with no indicator. Now I know about addons to time those so I probably wouldn't have trouble with it anymore but still, not the greatest design.
you mean Disease dispel?
@@Aggrofool no, the dungeon in general sucks without disease dispels but quite a few classes have those. The left route immediately after the first boss has a bunch of mobs that teleport to people and inflict I THINK a haste reducing DoT poison that kinda trucks if it stacks up a bit.
Young Dip hit that skip, stay bricked - never give up
I feel like I'm the only person that dislikes underrot. I enjoyed it in bfa because I only played that last season and the pilar skips were a ton of fun but I was only doing like 18-20 as it was my first time playing in 6+ years. In season two I think I had everything at 25 or higher but underrot was only a 22 or 23 it was so bad. Everyone I ran with was bad at worms, over slapping kicks, and the 2nd boss bricked so many runs.
Also BH had to be my favorite one this expansion but only if you had the god comp or something close to it. So many different things you could do and so much trash you would pull you could do or skips you could do and non required a shroud. Tho you did need a priest or the enjoyment was bricked.
The Arcway from Legion was better than CoS imo. Last boss was hard but the dungeon its self was more interesting.
As a Brewmaster, every dungeon felt like D tier 🤣
I feel like all the traveling and portal stuff and dungeons would just result in a slightly shorter timer if they weren’t in there. Maybe that’s a cope but designwise blizzard has to be thinking about the fact that doing that travel takes time, and therefore that incrementally moves up the timer fortunate to the travel time time
Algeth'ar was the ultimate noob detector. I would calculate the probability of timing the key, based on the number of players that took the 5% vers buff.
disclaimer this whole tier list is coming from the perspective of people who run top 1% keys with full premades 90% of the time .
yes, because we'd all rather hear the opinions of people who can't even complete 20s...
@@andred8046 that is the larger portion of the playerbase and your line of thought seems to be shared by blizzard. That may well be one of the reasons why player population has been going down over the years but keep that elitist attitude as the game dies a slow death of a thousand cuts.
@@andred8046 stupid take there is a diff between not completing 20 and not being full premade voice com
a lot of dungeons should have been put lower cause they are miserable if you are not full premade
@@sampearson4585yeah but we watch these people to hear from them.
Actually they’re running top .1% keys. So yeah, you know their opinion is well informed. Great disclaimer.
As a tank. Neltharus was probably my favorite dungeon. When the chains hit just right, best feeling in the world. Halls was top 3 with everbloom also being a personal favorite. Rise and fall are also really fun for me, alot of my friends hate it but its rounds out my top 5 persobally. But nelth is the only one i put in S
I mean you love Everbloom if you're playing VDH and Prot Paladin all day.
Do it on another tank that can't trivialize the Magic Damage or DreadPetal damage amp/slow. Then it's an absolute D tier dungeon.
How they still haven't made the flowers not apply on death affixes is a wonder to me.
@@nofoxgiven6561Yeah, that too.
Third boss on Holy Priest makes Everbloom Z tier
Temple of the Jade Serpent was a banger as a prot paladin. You also needed spriest and it was fine.
I think if the third boss and trash didn’t one shot tanks on every mechanic that wasn’t a prot pal it would’ve been great. Last boss was oof without priest
@@LATHSPELL70 i liked mobs interaction with spell reflection i remember taunting those Shas to do big dam with spell reflection and also save tank in high keys obvs coms group
@@kyoden1928 yeah warrior was really good until you got hit by the burn on third boss.
Rise + Fall is definitely the worst mega-dungeon to come out since they became a thing in legion, both in terms of fun and vibes
Aesthetically, I love Halls of Infusion. Anything that reminds me of Ulduar or Throne of Thunder gets a thumbs up from me. As for M+, I think I did like an 8 of these dungeon once in that season (after returning to the game because shadowlands) and for whatever reason my group couldn't los behind the ice blocks for shit! I'd drop the hell outta Underrot cause I practically lived in there during BFA
I dont get the shadowmoon hate, yeah theres one bad boss so what?
Maybe I missed you guys touching on this for Atal'Dazar, but the one thing I always feel is that it feels like the dungeon only really has one boss (that's overtuned). The first three bosses are so cakewalk tier, and you only really find out how long the dungeon is going to take you when you get to Yazma. Absolutely hated that about it.
Neltharus was especially bad because the spear boss (3rd usually) would break ALL the time when someone dies.
I once got gripped into storming on the last boss of nokhud and it was the worst
The fact Thundering was so bad of an affix that they just gave up on seasonal affixes entirely, after shadowlands season 3 and 4 were both absolute bangers.
nokhud was kinda good, my main gripe is that that key felt like 90% of failures you didnt even know if it was a fail until the very end really. and sometimes that last boss just fucked someone randomly. waycrest should be S tier, the m+ fixes over the years have made it so great to me. like no sanguine in waycrest is awesome lol.
AV was so fun because of the different routes and skips you could do
If they bring it back in s4 they better let us jump down again or i'm gonna be pissed.
It's interesting hearing Jdotb call snapping a "mechanic" rather than an "exploit"
Jdotb on point again with the scaling
Court in C is wild. That place was awesome!
thats why M+ is in state as it is Top 0.1% players sheeting on dungeons where 90% ppl love them
Spot on. My thoughts exactly. Halls of valor being rated that high I had to just skip to the end to see what the ratings were. Can’t sit here for 2 hours and listen to these out of touch takes
Everyone has different experiences of course and that's fine. Keys that are easy to farm for gear are probably often rated higher for people not pushing really high keys. I don't think what would fix dungeons for top players would ruin it for lower levels though ans I hope blizzard realise that
I'd love to have gone back and done season 1 without all the garbage affixes. Thundering, quaking and explosive made a lot of dungeons toxic for overlapping boss mechanics with these affixes.
Rate dungeons on their interaction with affixes. For instance, Explosive Algathar Academy was Horrendous!
I think Rise would feel a lot, lot better if the route was cleaner and there was significantly less mandatory wasted time. Between RP, portals and just meh boss design, the key just feels slow and sluggish. It's near the polar opposite of Fall -- generous timer and solid release points makes the key very forgiving, whereas Rise is a key where the timer straight up lies to you and one wipe pretty much means a dead run.
I'm pretty casual, I am doing 20-24s this season and dont push into high keys. But I don't quite understand why people are so opposed to Augmentation Evokers? Can someone explain? :) Thanks
Because in season 2 when they came up they became required to the point where the god comp was so much better and it was a result of which class interacts best with Aug the possible key level went up my like 3 or 4 if u had an Aug
I think its time to bring someone who pug keys, the fact that you consider normal the scaling of the last boss in Nokhud is insane, that Boss was a pug serial killer wasting al lyour time (23-25ish)
Oh wait did Growl know that Resto Shaman could also reveal the imposter in Court of Stars?
Algethar is gonna be super hated if it comes back - doing Crawth without a preservation is gonna suck so hard.
max thinking that his pugging 25-28s is the same experience as pugging as a whole kept triggering me lol, ur "pugging" in a group where everyone has like 3300+ io. not even remotely close to pugging 15-20s
HoV was kinda ass but tbh as a prot pally in like +29s and 30s it always felt sooooooo good to just call out the Fenryr fixate and just BoP the target and blast Fenryr for the whole 10s fixate.
I like that type of counterplay. Its all physical damage so i can BoP it and we blast.
I will agree that its a little ass backtracking a lot and my god Skovald and the 4 kings mini bosses was just ugh can this be over already.
It's weird that they seem to rate dungeons based on if **** one shot them or not while me a casual player doing 24-25 keys and pugging healers i would rate dungeons based on if the pug healer can heal the rot damage or not (with me helping him with my CDs and pot). Everbloom would have been much lower in my ranking. I tried to like this dungeon but finding a pug healer able to heal the rot damage in this dungeon is super hard. I've timed both Murozond and TotT in 24 and i feel like i could time them in 25 (given the opportunity) yet i'm still stuck in 23 for Everbloom despite many attempts to time it in a 24 just because the pug healer can't heal the rot damage and there's too many interrupts to do and i'm a range so i can't help much on that.
JB being super negative? Never would have guessed
As a +15 PUG tank... Vortex, freehold, Waycrest are S tier
As a Pres Evoker, Azure Vault belongs in F tier. Actual worst final boss in the game.
Hey, i have a take on keys scaling up to "oneshot" territory
What if they tuned the keys for the absolutely highest, and oneshot mechanics would do like, 110% of your health, so any defensives or AOE raid CD would save you, and tune healing thoughput on each pack etc etc at this high keylevel
And then downscale it to a +2 from there. And whatever you end up on at +2 becomes your baseline?
link the tierlist so we can make our own for discord arguments please
URL is visible for the entire video
tiermaker.com/create/dragonflight-m-dungeon-pool-tier-list-16203440
enjoy
wish i had this template to do myself
Court and Shadowmoon are singularly responsible for capping IO score from untimed keys at +20. They were wildly out of sync with the other S1 dungeons.
they just rank it to what ever the first person throws out...
Dratnos is always the best guest for me (JUST MY OPPIINIIOONNN!!! 😂). He gives both positive and negative feedback, and in such a level headed delivery.
Most of the guests just seem like a ball of negativity, and just rage dump non-stop. It just sucked all the joy out of things. Also, being nothing but positive isn't useful either, but that is way more rare of an occurrence 😂
I like your tier list, just some adjustment : TOTT D tier, ToJS C tier, Algethar academy S tier, Ruby life pool S tier, Season 2 F tier (Neither you play one of the meta spec, nor you're out of >+20)
Just 1 god comp deserve Z tier to me. It was a terrible time to play M+ for any spec other than god comp, and I am saying that as a healer.
I don’t hear much discussion about spawn check points, but I feel like good designs here have major influence over our perception of a favorable or not dungeon. Fall, great check points. Rise, tragic if you wipe at all between boss 2 and 4.
dang my noob ass take is way different. My S tier would be SBG, HoV, BRH, and CoS. F tier: VP, Underrot, Vault & Temple.
Curious, what makes underrot F for you?
@@melipnos mostly the 2nd boss and the trash leading up to it i didn't find fun at all but also the last boss was infuriating in some pugs where they would not bait the frontal properly. the 3rd boss was fun but could be a disaster on tyrannical weeks.
@@naph67 I see, I didn't pug a lot and those packs were always fun to do. Might be a bit punishing if you don't stop the frontals in pugs
my top timed key currently is fall..... we had 30 deaths..... and still almsot 2x'd it. that key is so fucking free it's crazy when it doesn't get timed.
Halls of valor in A, but neltharus in D? who let them cook??
Ah you're the guy that enjoyed Neltharus, heard rumors of your existence - never believed it though. 🤣🤣
@@ch.kv.my brother in law did neltharus 50+ times just for the trinket and he still enjoyed it😂
i am nor saying nelth is S tier, but halls of valor in A is a heinous crime.
@@ch.kv. Nelth is so much better than Halls.
Nelth wouldve been great if the bosses worked properly and the chains didnt exist
JB is hands down the most based content creator WoW streamer person there is and it's not close
Nokhud Offensive being in B tier instead of F or D tier instantly loses them credibility. The Dragonflight dungeon pool aside from Algethar's and Azure Vault is probably the worst since M+ came out in Legion.
Waycrest manor is the biggest upset for me on this list. The dungeon is so much easier if you play mage or even 2x mage, and that shouldn't be the case. for me there's too much movement on the bosses/curse/interupts, it's limited what comps you can bring on 26+
I have a love hate relationrelationship with ship with Court of starts. Me and my buddies ran that dungeon non stop cause 3 of us needed wet stone and also the ring. Overall we ran that dungeon around 100 times before we got it on all the chars. Never played legion so that’s why I enjoyed it a bit more. But ye after a 100 tries I don’t want to see that place ever again
Opinions vary wildly between people who just do their 16-20s for vault and heroic gear, people who push low-mid 20s, and people pushing 27-28+ and in super competent groups
Completely disagree on COS. I love the profession buffs and the DH and Paladin being useful at the end.
fall is one of my favorite keys
All I'm saying is that Arcway is the better Suramar dungeon... Court of Stars is only "good" because it was the only 3 quick dungeon next to Maw of Souls
Arcway ruled. Last boss sucked tho
A lot of pugs didn't enjoy Algethar? What? Lmao, I don't think I ever talked to anyone who DIDN'T like it and think it was one of (if not THE) best dungeon in S1.
glad JB was included in this, seems rare he ever has an L take
I would love to see this ranking but at 20s level
i like everbloom but the problem with it my class is 6 target capped
Chat is high - Academy is S tier.
Juggernauts should have twice the CD on their jump .
5 adds 13 minutes in is crazy. Is my UA-cam bugging out?
Edit* yep an ad every 2 minutes of a 2 hour video is crazy. Not sure what's happening but I really want to watch this video but literally can't.
Underrot in S is a crime againts humanity
Ngl Temple, RLP and AA are the best of S1. VP, BHH and FH are the best of S2. Ebloom and TOTT are the best of S3. IMOOOO