While the fountain mentioned is definitely the Wellspring, I think there may be another possibility as to what it was used for. That whatever Savathun did was needed to replace Osiris. In order to replace Osiris, Sagira had to be removed. But even a Lightless Guardian HAD the Light at some point. Savathun never did. So I think she needed Umiña’s Light to cover up her absent Light, or perhaps the “scent” of Darkness itself, in order to complete the shadow that was her disguise. It’s like a piece of fake fruit. While a plastic tomato may look and even feel real, it will never SMELL like a tomato. But, with a little Light, Savathun could. Not only would it line up with when “Osiris” returns, but an oil extracted from Star Jasmine is often used in perfumes.
Wonder if this curse of light is the same or similar as the one she put on the dreaming city. Rhulk is trapped in a time loop, unable to escape as long as the wellspring remains active. Savathun using the guardians attacking the Vow of the Disciple to continually recharge the curse and Rhulk's cage. The light used to blow Rhulk back into a tree over and over and over harvested to keep him tethered in a perpetual prison. It would be very Savathun to basically use her experiment on the dreaming city to perfect the cage meant for Rhulk, someone she considers much more dangerous than Mara Sov.
@@noahkline4263 That would suggest there's a wellspring within the dreaming city, of some sort. We find it, we disrupt it, we throw a wrench in it so bad it can never work again, we stop the curse. Should be fairly simple, but not very easy
@@prisoner6266 That is indeed a rather straightforward idea.. but the problem is this, I think.. the wellspring in savathuns throne world is made of light. Or at least is powered by it. But the curse on the dreaming city is a cycle initiated by darkness and vex trickery. When Savathun laid the curse-trap (before we triggered the curse from killing Riven) she was in possession and control of the power of Taking and used this power as some sort of facet of the curse. THE biggest difference is that what has been proposed here for the wellspring cycle is purely cause and effect. The scorn and rhulk attempt to weaken his curse and the wellspring that powers it. We come along and defend the wellspring/knock rhulk down a peg in the VotD raid. The curse on the dreaming city however is a literal time loop that resets every 3 weeks due to the cause and effect there. So while it makes good sense in the comparison of these two situations, the fundamental differences would indicate something other than a "wellspring" of darkness being the source of the Dreaming citys curse. I imagine it to be something intangible that only someone with the power of Taking could manipulate. Savathun could've easily lied when she told us she no longer had the ability to break the curse, but if she wasnt.. then I think only someone with that power can do anything about it. One last thing to consider is the curse is also a function of Wish magic and with Riven dead and very much not an ally.. i dont know if we ever could break the curse. It's quite the stumper. Makes me wonder if maybe bungie is still doing something about a 15th wish and if it might be related to breaking the curse in a narrative somewhere down the line.
@@noahkline4263 however we do have the tablets of ruin, which I think were what Oryx used to learn to take, right? Combine that with our guardian's propensity for using stasis and some powerful friends we could be able to work out how to at least take a chunk off whatever powers the time loop.
Umiña the goddess of health (Ecuador/Peru) has an interesting story: Just who was the goddess Umiña? There are conflicting tales. One version, Legend and Traditions of the Umiña Goddess, by historian Ramón Chávez García, says that one of the chiefs of the Mantan tribe, Shygui, was married to a humble but very intelligent woman, and they had a daughter with beautiful green eyes, called Umiña. Her mother was healer and priestess in the city of Jocay. When Umiña was 21, her mother died. The following year her father's friends advised him to marry another woman, a wizard of the tribe. He did so, but the public disliked his new wife. They preferred Umiña, who had dedicated her life to helping all who sought medical and religious aid, continuing the beneficial work her mother had entrusted to her. In a fit of jealousy, Shygui's new wife bewitched him into ordering that his daughter be tied to a raft and left for three days without water or food. Soldiers ordered to carry out the sentence were grateful to Umiña and did not allow her to die. After three days, a neighboring tribe found her on the raft, and took her to a friend's house. Her father then decreed that she be taken to the highest mountains, tied and left in the snow, without shelter or food. Three months later, Umiña appeared again, saying that a condor had carried her home. The people of Jocay rejoiced at the news. The witch, infuriated by the ridicule she had suffered, wanted to force her husband to order the death of his daughter, but Shygui, freed at last from her witchcraft, punished his wife and threw her out of the house. In a rage, she vowed that before three moons he would be dead. In a dawn attack, while Shygui was asleep, the witch killed him with a knife. Umiña was sleeping, guarded in another house. When told what had happened to her father, she called to the soldiers to capture the witch. One hundred soldiers set out to do so, but returned saying that when they found her, the evil woman had become a ferocious wolf. Shygui was buried in his own house and Umiña, crying brokenheartedly, lay down on his tomb, refusing to take food. A few days later, she died, after ordering that nobody should move her body. The settlers retired, obeying the order of their goddess. Soon after Umiña's death, people began to notice that her heart had turned into a red stone as large as a fist. The upper part had two green points which gradually grew until they covered all the heart, which was transformed into a beautiful emerald. The new chief took the precious stone, and arranged for a goldsmith to shape its upper part into a bust of Umiña. He built a beautiful temple so that she would be adored like a goddess. From the first moment, sick people who touched the emerald immediately became well. The fame of the Goddess of Health reached many parts of the continent. Visitors came from Peru, Mexico and Central America, donating gold dust and other gifts.
I wonder if the light from the wellspring is the only thing keeping Savathuns throne world together. We don't know what happens to someone's throne world when they die. The light within the wellspring might be holding Savathuns throne world together like glue and preventing the whole pocket dimension from collapsing. Perhaps that's why the scorn keep coming after it. If they destroy the wellspring they destroy the throne world while Savathun is absent. Maybe a paracausal source is needed to hold a throne world together, aka light for Savathun, dark for Oryx, a mix of both for Mara Sov?
We know what happens it happened to oryx the throne world it becomes vacant mind bender doesn't count he may have made one but he's no hive so of course after we killed him it became unstable
Perhaps they are trapped in the well, in a state of constant death with their ghost constantly feeding their light into the Wellspring to act as a focus for the Wellspring to bring in more light or hold it?
But would the ghost really continue to revive them over and over again? Wasn't there some lore where a ghost stopped reviving a guardian after a LOT of deaths/revives? Iirc it might've been part of the glykon story, I'm not sure.
@@leo21lan yes. But you're not 100% correct. The ghost *couldnt* rez their guardian. The lore in question is about a guardian who fell into some weird ass time trap doing shit on the Almighty before the Conclave crashed it into the City. The ghost tried to rez but the guardian wasnt technically dead and due to the way the trap/machine/whatever functioned, the ghost couldnt do ANYTHING at all. We never found out what happened to that guardian when the ship crashed. If that could've killed him, he could be brought back now. But who knows whether bungie will pick up the loose thread or not. As far as the glykon thing, also not wrong but not 100% right. The hunter aboard the glykon WAS getting rezzed over and over but it got to a point where he was just dying of starvation everytime he came back so he asked his ghost to wait until some way out could be found or help arrived.. Sadly, the darkness beat out his ghost and he succumbed to the promise of Salvation.. brought his guardian back one last time to confront this turn of events where the guardian destroys his tainted ghost and eventually dies his final death, having no way to be rezzed anymore.
@@leo21lan We know this can be done because of Fynch. Fynch doesn't rez his hive guardian, we see it behind him every time we walk up to him. There's more about this in the lorebook Fynch II from Lucent Tales.
When Byf mentions “forerunners”, characters that had begun understand the true nature and neutrality of Light and Dark as paracausal forces: Eris Morn, Drifter, the Exo Stranger. I feel he left a few out: Osiris and Shin Malphur. Though, to be more precise, Osiris was one of the first few to question the Travaler’s motivations, and if it was on our side. Not necessarily that light and dark are more neutral forces of nature. Shin Malphur on the other hand, isn’t necessarily a “light purist” with a blind devotion to the Travaler like Zavala or the now mad and corrupt Shayura. He once, and still has a somewhat strict sense of justice. Though, Shin learned this same “grey outlook” on light and dark when he had an epiphany on Yor’s final words. He’d learned that Light alone cannot save us. That only wielding darkness and light in balance would we be able to survive the coming storm. Though he had more of a volatile way to go about it, killing guardians who’d most likely been corrupted by the Witness, instead of teaching them to wield it properly or rehabilitating them like the Vanguard. As for his whereabouts, it’s theorized that Shin is retired, though I’d be surprised if he doesn’t turn up in the lore again, what with some Guardians betraying humanity even with wielding stasis, and the discovery of more weapons of Sorrow like Ostrea Striga. There’s also Ulan-Tan, whose probably laughing from his grave about how he was right, that Guardians could only win against the Witness by balancing light and dark in symmetry.
@@ayushagrawal6996 Aunor is a hidden agent. I think Shayura is as well. She hasn’t been corrupted by the whispers of the Witness. Her ptsd from the red war, and Savathun’s influence on her caused her to be corrupted in a different way: she became a zealot for the Light. Like Shin before he learned the truth that Elsie, Drifter and Eris knows of the light and dark, they aren’t inherently good or evil, we must wield both to survive. Shayura went rogue. Not because if the witness whispering to her, but because if Savathun and her ptsd. Her views on the light and dark were black and white, she started a radical crusade by hunting down Guardians, even though they used stasis for good. Her views are still black and white until she met guardians using stasis, and Lucent Hive. Her dogma on the light and dark was rigid and naive, like the Vanguard is. Now, after narrowly surviving an encounter with a Lucent Hive, her view on reality and the light and dark has been shattered to the point she no longer trusts anyone or herself. By the writing of this, she’s been apprehended again by City security and her fireteam. Now, she’s been imprisoned and awaits rehabilitation. Shayura’s case for going rouge isn’t the Witness corrupting her, it’s her mental trauma and Savathun letting her out later.
Think back to the old strike, savathuns song. She’s been harvesting guardians for light to use in artefacts for a while and I believe this is just an extension of that preparation
Curious that Void orbs are used to interact with the Wellspring. Void Light, especially contained in orbs, has been a critical part of most of Savathun's plans for years.
The part where Fynch said that if the scorn destroy the Wellspring or control it that we all will be hurt real bad. It just seems very similar to how Rhulk was saying the uphended worked but in this case it seems like this spell works in the same way but if interupted has some type of side effect that may act like the uphended would.
The scent of the light is either to ward something off or, more likely, to be present as a lingering bit of light in an item/place/person so they/it appears to be a light bearer (or former light bearer). She's the Hive God of cunning and deception. She's using the light like she used the lure.
After that, I speculate she’ll either join us, live in peace and isolation in her throne world after moving it out of, and far from Sol. There is also the possibility Caital, and Mara may try to persuade us into permanently killing Savathun, maybe she’ll accept she’s done awful things, or maybe we’ll have to hunt her down. Either way, her alignment may change when she comes back. If she wishes to be our ally, it may be very difficult to convince Mara and Caital not kill her or persuade us to kill her. The Queen of Lies certainly wouldn’t last long in a court trial.
For further contextualizatiin, don't forget that the Star Jasmine is actually acquired from beating all four permutations of the Wellspring on Master difficulty
Given everything that’s happened, it may be far fetched, but I’d love for us to meet and work with Shin for one season. To interact and see his views on the war going on now, and how he reacts to stasis, and how he would probably argue with the Dark Vanguard.
While I do think there's something to Umina and the Wellspring. It is worth noting that Savathûn had long since been harvesting the light of Guardians on Titan..that must have gone somewhere.
I would expect that the wellspring would've stored or been fed years' worth of light stolen from guardians, like the stolen light from Savathun's Song (the strike)
I mean, Savathun's throne world was made from Darkness power originally. She couldn't exactly change the underlying structure of the place without letting Rhulk out, but without the Darkness after she ascended, she would be unable to maintain it and thereby let Rhulk out. My theory is that her throne world is the "shadow" here, and she's using a power separate from her own (Umiña) to make the wellspring, which is the light casting said shadow. It also serves as a foothold for the light, the traveler hung directly above it for the brief moment it was there, and from the other voicelines it seems like we'd lose the ability to use light in the throneworld if it were to be destroyed.
Another possibility is that Umina willing sacrificed their light to make this all possible. Following that, Savathun bared it all to the Traveler in her dying moments and due to this the Traveler chose to revive her, possibly knowing her plan. I believe that the Traveler, knowing this, definitely would have given her a powerful dose of the Light in order to keep Rhulk at bay, along with the fact that the Traveler itself was sucked into her Throne World right above the Wellspring and could have powered the Light Curse itself during that time. The only Mistake Savathun really made was not telling us the truth, but this isn't because she was decieving US. Savathun was decieving THEM(The Pantheon of Darkness). Had she told us straight out what she was doing they would have known and turned on her immediately. Good thing her Ghost is still alive imo. She's definitely going to be a powerful ally in the long run.
Can I point out the play Savathun made by allowing this ship to even reach our hands?! She states at the end "the ship is recording dispose of it", yet we still obtain not a recording but the very ship... This feels like a greater scheme I can't find the end to...
last month, i did a one-shot in a fan-made Destiny TTRPG for some friends while our usual DM for that timeslot wasn't able to make it, and ever since, i can't help but have a new appreciation for the deeper lore of Destiny. i don't even know why the possibility of the TTRPG awoke such an appreciation in me, but i love it, and i love hearing more about these interactions in the lore. that said, i'm curious what someone more well-versed in the lore than i am would think of an idea i have for an actual campaign. I was just trying to think of a cool way to give my players the Worldline Zero for fun as a demonstration- and a hint at what may come- in the way of unique armaments, but it evolved into an idea of Vex using a ritual similar to the Hive. so i thought, what would happen if a Hive were to interact with vex radiolarian fluid to the same degree that several other characters in the past have, and turned into a Vex? would they be able to keep their consciousness and individuality? the Hive don't often interact with the Vex, and as far as i'm aware, they haven't even been on the same playspace, planet-wise, in the games. the only record that i know of is when Quria was made, so i'm wondering in what plausible blind spot could i make such an idea work? the actual idea for the campaign was more than just that, though i'm not sure what good it would do, or if it would work given the rules of the actual lore, to have the Vex try and have the Black Garden leech out into other places in the same vein as the Dreadnaught was turned inside-out and blended with Oryx' throne world.
I mean this could go all the way back to that strike where we find out that savathun is turning guardians into orbs of light energy. Maybe That was to see if she could harvest some form of energy from light bearers. It also created an easier form for them to be stored away and used as ingredients for the wellspring.
If I remember correctly the area in the throne world that houses a bunch of containers of tainted light, the area where you retrieve the shard from the chrysalis, is under the wellspring. Maybe each vessel hold a guardians light that Savathun lure into the throne world. She is probably the more educated individual when it comes to the intricacies of the light. She had to know as soon as she made the bargain with Mara the worm gods would all know and Rhulk would act with the upended. She could have used the light she harvested to enact the light curse until she herself was able to maintain it with her own light.
What if Umina isn't dead, but trapped and may even have become one of Savathunes first direct guardian hive hybrid tests? They would be infused with hive magic and the light, which we see in things like the void crystals and lucient hive to have explosively powerful results. It wouldn't be the first time the hive have used a living being as a power source. With whatever torture Umina might go through in the process causing them to lose their mind and attack anything with their newfound power, Savathune might have had to lock them in the fountain. Instead of a victim of it, they would be a source, cursed to be trapped by hive magic mixed with light. Only reason I suggest this is because the lore entry doesn't specifically say they are dead or alive. Probably a wild thought but it would really be interesting and could lead to even more future possibilities to introduce the guardians to tools and powers of their own forged with light and hive magic. Sounds like we could use more weapons of hope in the future and this may lead to that.
This is a remarkably different Savathun than her discussion with Nokris. Biting words that may hide meaning, but shorter monologues all together. Something happened to her when she first corrupted Osiris. she is putting up less of a facade here than she did with her own kind way back in Arrivals. Edit: wait so you’re telling me that Savathun used a guardian to “prime” her throne world before her conversion to the light? That’s wild
@@redturtle8117 She was so used to be a cold and lying Witch, but living as Osiris she remembered What its like to be loved as a side effect of the connection she had with Osiris. She certainly was changed by that... But would that mean Osiris too has changed to be more hive like in mind?
Hmm... She was searching for Osiris and got snatched up. Considering that he has no light that Savathûn could have used at the time, it's likely she used guardians that were alone and not so noticed by the tower. Remember the song on Titan? It wouldn't be the first time.
just a question but will we be getting any lore on (and is there) what hawthorne has been up to since the end of the red war, and her opinions on whats happening?
Can you do a video on the Lucent Brood and their plans? I keep seeing people saying that they feel bad killing Hive Ghosts and that they weren't a threat to us, which this season proves is nonsense.
In regards to the wellspring or whatever this trough of the gods is, is this how sav is able to gift the light to her hive? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we have a reason for the hive being chosen other than they're randomly chosen which is crazy because sav has a huge army of lucent hive. Is she able to use this object to share her light or take it from others to give to her own hive?
@@dexterthielhelm4342 fair enough, I'd be pretty pissed to if I was wondering around the cosmos for decent corpse and couldn't find one amongst the billions of them
Could the Scorn not use the wellspring to gain control of and distribute the Light among themselves? Essentially stealing it from Savathûn and the Hive? I think you mentioned something about how the Wellspring is how the Light is distributed amongst the Hive. So, in theory, could the Scorn, instead of wanting to destroy it, rather want control of it so that they might obtain the Light and become more powerful? I’m sorry if it’s a dumb question, but it never hurts to ask, right? lol
Those lore only supports even more that some of the lucent Hive that isn’t happy to kill guardians ghost will be the elo to a hive alliance if ever will be one. Savathun is not someone that bungie should make a ally. She’s a great character, I can see dark guardians allying with her, but not the vanguard nor us. She’s great as a third force in the dispute, but not as a convenience ally. People from the city wouldn’t aprove, lots os guardians too. I just can’t see Caitil stay on the alliance if we ever allow Savathun to be some kinda of ally to us, it would be super difficult already she accepting a Hive lieutenant to begin with.
I don't think one guardian or thousands of guardians killed over the centuries is enough power to keep a throne world together. But the amount of light released when the Traveler's shell was cracked open during the Collapse? Aye, that would be enough I think to do it.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it doesn't have anything to do with Savathuns curse. I think Umina's was fed to the worm gods in order to help Savathun keep her throne world together. A healthy diet of light energy is what every growing worm god needs. Of course Savathun has grown in her power since gaining the light and as such maybe she is now using the light to stabilize the throne world. It could explain how we were able to beat her as she was concentrating on keeping her throne world together not the fight with us.
What if it's not the wellspring....what if it's the giant bowl where we had our final fight in during the campaign where the traveller suspended themselves over. What if the sacrificed guardian was the scent that the traveller needed to follow to get to the thrown world.....cause if they were they then maybe the traveller would not have know how to get to the thrown world....
Why didn't the Witnes free Rhulk from the cage Savathun trapped him in? I get the sword logic, if he wasn't strong enough to free himself yada yada but Witnes ain't stupid, it lost it's most powerful single ally/weapon by letting Savathun to trap Rhulk so we might kill him/keep him trapped and I'm sure it would have been half a finger snaps worth of effort from the Witnes to free Rhulk..
Plot Twist: The Light is keeping the Throne World alive AND being transferred to God Emperor of Mankind in the inmaterium! Praise the holy One of Terra!
So we're just gonna skip over Eris embracing stasis at the end of the Shadowkeep campaign? When she touches the artifact, turns around and has stasis crystals on her. Seems like she was the first to embrace it to me.
While the fountain mentioned is definitely the Wellspring, I think there may be another possibility as to what it was used for. That whatever Savathun did was needed to replace Osiris.
In order to replace Osiris, Sagira had to be removed. But even a Lightless Guardian HAD the Light at some point. Savathun never did. So I think she needed Umiña’s Light to cover up her absent Light, or perhaps the “scent” of Darkness itself, in order to complete the shadow that was her disguise. It’s like a piece of fake fruit. While a plastic tomato may look and even feel real, it will never SMELL like a tomato. But, with a little Light, Savathun could.
Not only would it line up with when “Osiris” returns, but an oil extracted from Star Jasmine is often used in perfumes.
Wonder if this curse of light is the same or similar as the one she put on the dreaming city. Rhulk is trapped in a time loop, unable to escape as long as the wellspring remains active. Savathun using the guardians attacking the Vow of the Disciple to continually recharge the curse and Rhulk's cage. The light used to blow Rhulk back into a tree over and over and over harvested to keep him tethered in a perpetual prison. It would be very Savathun to basically use her experiment on the dreaming city to perfect the cage meant for Rhulk, someone she considers much more dangerous than Mara Sov.
So rluk is now stuck in a death loop like diovolo
Bro, I never thought of that.. that's actually genius.
But how do we stop the curse is still the damned question? Lol
Nice detective work though
👍🏻
@@noahkline4263 That would suggest there's a wellspring within the dreaming city, of some sort. We find it, we disrupt it, we throw a wrench in it so bad it can never work again, we stop the curse. Should be fairly simple, but not very easy
@@prisoner6266 That is indeed a rather straightforward idea.. but the problem is this, I think.. the wellspring in savathuns throne world is made of light. Or at least is powered by it. But the curse on the dreaming city is a cycle initiated by darkness and vex trickery. When Savathun laid the curse-trap (before we triggered the curse from killing Riven) she was in possession and control of the power of Taking and used this power as some sort of facet of the curse. THE biggest difference is that what has been proposed here for the wellspring cycle is purely cause and effect. The scorn and rhulk attempt to weaken his curse and the wellspring that powers it. We come along and defend the wellspring/knock rhulk down a peg in the VotD raid. The curse on the dreaming city however is a literal time loop that resets every 3 weeks due to the cause and effect there.
So while it makes good sense in the comparison of these two situations, the fundamental differences would indicate something other than a "wellspring" of darkness being the source of the Dreaming citys curse. I imagine it to be something intangible that only someone with the power of Taking could manipulate. Savathun could've easily lied when she told us she no longer had the ability to break the curse, but if she wasnt.. then I think only someone with that power can do anything about it.
One last thing to consider is the curse is also a function of Wish magic and with Riven dead and very much not an ally.. i dont know if we ever could break the curse.
It's quite the stumper. Makes me wonder if maybe bungie is still doing something about a 15th wish and if it might be related to breaking the curse in a narrative somewhere down the line.
@@noahkline4263 however we do have the tablets of ruin, which I think were what Oryx used to learn to take, right? Combine that with our guardian's propensity for using stasis and some powerful friends we could be able to work out how to at least take a chunk off whatever powers the time loop.
April Fools idea for next year, VaatiVidya and Byf swap channels for a day
hell yeah
😴
That'd be amazing.
If only
Who
imagine the fan fictions that'll be written about this.
"big goth mommy steals weak guardian into her throne world for some alone time!"
Well the Rhulk/Guardian fanfics are already out there so why not 💀
@@viitaflor oh I can imagine "giant 🗿 headed man steps on submissive guardians!"
anything for hive mommy
@@viitaflor that’s a joke right? There’s no way.
@@thunderbird7020 not a joke lol
Umiña the goddess of health (Ecuador/Peru) has an interesting story:
Just who was the goddess Umiña? There are conflicting tales. One version, Legend and Traditions of the Umiña Goddess, by historian Ramón Chávez García, says that one of the chiefs of the Mantan tribe, Shygui, was married to a humble but very intelligent woman, and they had a daughter with beautiful green eyes, called Umiña. Her mother was healer and priestess in the city of Jocay.
When Umiña was 21, her mother died. The following year her father's friends advised him to marry another woman, a wizard of the tribe. He did so, but the public disliked his new wife. They preferred Umiña, who had dedicated her life to helping all who sought medical and religious aid, continuing the beneficial work her mother had entrusted to her.
In a fit of jealousy, Shygui's new wife bewitched him into ordering that his daughter be tied to a raft and left for three days without water or food. Soldiers ordered to carry out the sentence were grateful to Umiña and did not allow her to die. After three days, a neighboring tribe found her on the raft, and took her to a friend's house.
Her father then decreed that she be taken to the highest mountains, tied and left in the snow, without shelter or food. Three months later, Umiña appeared again, saying that a condor had carried her home. The people of Jocay rejoiced at the news. The witch, infuriated by the ridicule she had suffered, wanted to force her husband to order the death of his daughter, but Shygui, freed at last from her witchcraft, punished his wife and threw her out of the house. In a rage, she vowed that before three moons he would be dead.
In a dawn attack, while Shygui was asleep, the witch killed him with a knife. Umiña was sleeping, guarded in another house. When told what had happened to her father, she called to the soldiers to capture the witch. One hundred soldiers set out to do so, but returned saying that when they found her, the evil woman had become a ferocious wolf.
Shygui was buried in his own house and Umiña, crying brokenheartedly, lay down on his tomb, refusing to take food. A few days later, she died, after ordering that nobody should move her body. The settlers retired, obeying the order of their goddess.
Soon after Umiña's death, people began to notice that her heart had turned into a red stone as large as a fist. The upper part had two green points which gradually grew until they covered all the heart, which was transformed into a beautiful emerald.
The new chief took the precious stone, and arranged for a goldsmith to shape its upper part into a bust of Umiña. He built a beautiful temple so that she would be adored like a goddess. From the first moment, sick people who touched the emerald immediately became well. The fame of the Goddess of Health reached many parts of the continent. Visitors came from Peru, Mexico and Central America, donating gold dust and other gifts.
Legitimately cool story, bro.
Meso American mythology has always been among my favorites. We're lucky so many people endeavored to preserve them.
I wonder if the light from the wellspring is the only thing keeping Savathuns throne world together. We don't know what happens to someone's throne world when they die. The light within the wellspring might be holding Savathuns throne world together like glue and preventing the whole pocket dimension from collapsing. Perhaps that's why the scorn keep coming after it. If they destroy the wellspring they destroy the throne world while Savathun is absent. Maybe a paracausal source is needed to hold a throne world together, aka light for Savathun, dark for Oryx, a mix of both for Mara Sov?
The Throne World of the mindbender was consumed after we killed him
we nearly died there aswell back then , if we wasnt fast enough
We know what happens it happened to oryx the throne world it becomes vacant mind bender doesn't count he may have made one but he's no hive so of course after we killed him it became unstable
Savathun isn't permanently dead. Imarru is still alive.
@@SupremeKaiShadic I'm pretty sure you don't need to be hive to have a genuine throne world, you just have to obey the sword logic
@@randomakicita6903 yeah but I'm saying that since mind bender wasn't hive his throne world wasn't as refined as a hives his was like an imitation
Perhaps they are trapped in the well, in a state of constant death with their ghost constantly feeding their light into the Wellspring to act as a focus for the Wellspring to bring in more light or hold it?
But would the ghost really continue to revive them over and over again?
Wasn't there some lore where a ghost stopped reviving a guardian after a LOT of deaths/revives?
Iirc it might've been part of the glykon story, I'm not sure.
@@leo21lan i thought the guardian had to beg for his ghost to stop reviving him cuz he would either die from starvation or the hostiles on the ship.
@@leo21lan yes. But you're not 100% correct. The ghost *couldnt* rez their guardian. The lore in question is about a guardian who fell into some weird ass time trap doing shit on the Almighty before the Conclave crashed it into the City. The ghost tried to rez but the guardian wasnt technically dead and due to the way the trap/machine/whatever functioned, the ghost couldnt do ANYTHING at all. We never found out what happened to that guardian when the ship crashed. If that could've killed him, he could be brought back now. But who knows whether bungie will pick up the loose thread or not.
As far as the glykon thing, also not wrong but not 100% right. The hunter aboard the glykon WAS getting rezzed over and over but it got to a point where he was just dying of starvation everytime he came back so he asked his ghost to wait until some way out could be found or help arrived..
Sadly, the darkness beat out his ghost and he succumbed to the promise of Salvation.. brought his guardian back one last time to confront this turn of events where the guardian destroys his tainted ghost and eventually dies his final death, having no way to be rezzed anymore.
@@leo21lan We know this can be done because of Fynch. Fynch doesn't rez his hive guardian, we see it behind him every time we walk up to him. There's more about this in the lorebook Fynch II from Lucent Tales.
@@leo21lan Can't be true if you've seen me in the crucible
It’s ok Byf! We support you for taking time off to keep up your mental and physical health!
When Byf mentions “forerunners”, characters that had begun understand the true nature and neutrality of Light and Dark as paracausal forces: Eris Morn, Drifter, the Exo Stranger. I feel he left a few out: Osiris and Shin Malphur. Though, to be more precise, Osiris was one of the first few to question the Travaler’s motivations, and if it was on our side. Not necessarily that light and dark are more neutral forces of nature. Shin Malphur on the other hand, isn’t necessarily a “light purist” with a blind devotion to the Travaler like Zavala or the now mad and corrupt Shayura. He once, and still has a somewhat strict sense of justice. Though, Shin learned this same “grey outlook” on light and dark when he had an epiphany on Yor’s final words. He’d learned that Light alone cannot save us. That only wielding darkness and light in balance would we be able to survive the coming storm. Though he had more of a volatile way to go about it, killing guardians who’d most likely been corrupted by the Witness, instead of teaching them to wield it properly or rehabilitating them like the Vanguard. As for his whereabouts, it’s theorized that Shin is retired, though I’d be surprised if he doesn’t turn up in the lore again, what with some Guardians betraying humanity even with wielding stasis, and the discovery of more weapons of Sorrow like Ostrea Striga. There’s also Ulan-Tan, whose probably laughing from his grave about how he was right, that Guardians could only win against the Witness by balancing light and dark in symmetry.
Wait, when did Shayura get corrupted? I thought she was a hidden agent who hunted rogue Guardians/Ghosts. She worked for Vanguard, right?
@@ayushagrawal6996 Aunor is a hidden agent. I think Shayura is as well. She hasn’t been corrupted by the whispers of the Witness. Her ptsd from the red war, and Savathun’s influence on her caused her to be corrupted in a different way: she became a zealot for the Light. Like Shin before he learned the truth that Elsie, Drifter and Eris knows of the light and dark, they aren’t inherently good or evil, we must wield both to survive. Shayura went rogue. Not because if the witness whispering to her, but because if Savathun and her ptsd. Her views on the light and dark were black and white, she started a radical crusade by hunting down Guardians, even though they used stasis for good. Her views are still black and white until she met guardians using stasis, and Lucent Hive. Her dogma on the light and dark was rigid and naive, like the Vanguard is. Now, after narrowly surviving an encounter with a Lucent Hive, her view on reality and the light and dark has been shattered to the point she no longer trusts anyone or herself. By the writing of this, she’s been apprehended again by City security and her fireteam. Now, she’s been imprisoned and awaits rehabilitation. Shayura’s case for going rouge isn’t the Witness corrupting her, it’s her mental trauma and Savathun letting her out later.
@@garrettviewegh677 That's really cool! (lore-wise...)
Think back to the old strike, savathuns song. She’s been harvesting guardians for light to use in artefacts for a while and I believe this is just an extension of that preparation
Curious that Void orbs are used to interact with the Wellspring. Void Light, especially contained in orbs, has been a critical part of most of Savathun's plans for years.
We went down as a squad of 9
@@peabrain6872 got picked off one by one
The part where Fynch said that if the scorn destroy the Wellspring or control it that we all will be hurt real bad. It just seems very similar to how Rhulk was saying the uphended worked but in this case it seems like this spell works in the same way but if interupted has some type of side effect that may act like the uphended would.
Welcome back Byf! No sorries for taking breaks, personal time is a concept for a reason ~
Took a guardian to her throneworld and she freaked it
The scent of the light is either to ward something off or, more likely, to be present as a lingering bit of light in an item/place/person so they/it appears to be a light bearer (or former light bearer). She's the Hive God of cunning and deception. She's using the light like she used the lure.
I believe we’ll at some point rez Savathun. We’ll need her against her sister and The Witness.
Yeah, Immaru getting away is what we call a Chekhov's gun.
@@ChaaDubaItsIidan I’m aware. Bungie is really running with their story here.
After that, I speculate she’ll either join us, live in peace and isolation in her throne world after moving it out of, and far from Sol. There is also the possibility Caital, and Mara may try to persuade us into permanently killing Savathun, maybe she’ll accept she’s done awful things, or maybe we’ll have to hunt her down. Either way, her alignment may change when she comes back. If she wishes to be our ally, it may be very difficult to convince Mara and Caital not kill her or persuade us to kill her. The Queen of Lies certainly wouldn’t last long in a court trial.
Well... Let my comment be the beacon, as it were. 😅
Lol, I read that yesterday. The whole monologue and the 81 other hive with her
Literally perfect timing
For further contextualizatiin, don't forget that the Star Jasmine is actually acquired from beating all four permutations of the Wellspring on Master difficulty
Savasussy kidnaped someone? Yeah seems in character.
The new lore on the Guardian Games class items have me shook.
Maybe spoilers...?
The Spider is in the city
We already knew that i think
@@supremeballen6407 we did not. Only that they got smuggled out by the Drifter.
@@Flamme-Sanabi but there was talk about smuggling him in to the city was there not?
@@supremeballen6407 maybe, but then only speculations.
Obviously Spider had another of those fancy Hive translocator runes, and thats why Mara couldnt catch him smh
Well, I heard someone refer to the WellSpring as Savathun’s bath water once. So. There’s that.
Ah yes, Lore Daddy Byf is back with a new bedtime story. 👏🏻😴 Been waiting, welcome back!
That ñ isn't just an n, but a Spanish letter. It would be "Umin-yah," I think...
Savathûn : *Ahhhh… welcome, oh honoured guest*
Guardian : Hive mommy steal my light
Savathûn : *what the actual fuck*
Do you guys remember how simple everything was in the beginning of destiny 2? My god it came to our guardian so fast they did the story so well…
Given everything that’s happened, it may be far fetched, but I’d love for us to meet and work with Shin for one season. To interact and see his views on the war going on now, and how he reacts to stasis, and how he would probably argue with the Dark Vanguard.
While I do think there's something to Umina and the Wellspring.
It is worth noting that Savathûn had long since been harvesting the light of Guardians on Titan..that must have gone somewhere.
I would expect that the wellspring would've stored or been fed years' worth of light stolen from guardians, like the stolen light from Savathun's Song (the strike)
Since it was mentioned at the start, anyone else think the last Lucent Tales entry was actually just a fun reference to Arcane?
Lucky bastard... got the savathussy early :(
Bonk!
you mean the skeleussy.
ripe and rotten.
Lucky guardian, I would love me some Savathussy...
I mean, Savathun's throne world was made from Darkness power originally. She couldn't exactly change the underlying structure of the place without letting Rhulk out, but without the Darkness after she ascended, she would be unable to maintain it and thereby let Rhulk out.
My theory is that her throne world is the "shadow" here, and she's using a power separate from her own (Umiña) to make the wellspring, which is the light casting said shadow. It also serves as a foothold for the light, the traveler hung directly above it for the brief moment it was there, and from the other voicelines it seems like we'd lose the ability to use light in the throneworld if it were to be destroyed.
Another possibility is that Umina willing sacrificed their light to make this all possible. Following that, Savathun bared it all to the Traveler in her dying moments and due to this the Traveler chose to revive her, possibly knowing her plan. I believe that the Traveler, knowing this, definitely would have given her a powerful dose of the Light in order to keep Rhulk at bay, along with the fact that the Traveler itself was sucked into her Throne World right above the Wellspring and could have powered the Light Curse itself during that time. The only Mistake Savathun really made was not telling us the truth, but this isn't because she was decieving US. Savathun was decieving THEM(The Pantheon of Darkness). Had she told us straight out what she was doing they would have known and turned on her immediately. Good thing her Ghost is still alive imo. She's definitely going to be a powerful ally in the long run.
Can I point out the play Savathun made by allowing this ship to even reach our hands?! She states at the end "the ship is recording dispose of it", yet we still obtain not a recording but the very ship... This feels like a greater scheme I can't find the end to...
Fanfic writers gonna go crazy with this one
Great stuff. I agree that it sounds like Sav lured the Guardian in to use their light.
last month, i did a one-shot in a fan-made Destiny TTRPG for some friends while our usual DM for that timeslot wasn't able to make it, and ever since, i can't help but have a new appreciation for the deeper lore of Destiny. i don't even know why the possibility of the TTRPG awoke such an appreciation in me, but i love it, and i love hearing more about these interactions in the lore.
that said, i'm curious what someone more well-versed in the lore than i am would think of an idea i have for an actual campaign. I was just trying to think of a cool way to give my players the Worldline Zero for fun as a demonstration- and a hint at what may come- in the way of unique armaments, but it evolved into an idea of Vex using a ritual similar to the Hive. so i thought, what would happen if a Hive were to interact with vex radiolarian fluid to the same degree that several other characters in the past have, and turned into a Vex? would they be able to keep their consciousness and individuality? the Hive don't often interact with the Vex, and as far as i'm aware, they haven't even been on the same playspace, planet-wise, in the games. the only record that i know of is when Quria was made, so i'm wondering in what plausible blind spot could i make such an idea work? the actual idea for the campaign was more than just that, though i'm not sure what good it would do, or if it would work given the rules of the actual lore, to have the Vex try and have the Black Garden leech out into other places in the same vein as the Dreadnaught was turned inside-out and blended with Oryx' throne world.
I was just wondering two days ago about this because the lore was so so grim.
HOW COULD SAVATHUN DO THIS
Boredom?
This title reads like a 'breaking' news headline that reads "THE MURDERER MURDERED"
Easily.
Why would shield hero do that
Such a forthright and morally pure character, I too have been blindsided by this sudden and unforseeable betrayal of trust.
I mean this could go all the way back to that strike where we find out that savathun is turning guardians into orbs of light energy. Maybe That was to see if she could harvest some form of energy from light bearers. It also created an easier form for them to be stored away and used as ingredients for the wellspring.
Really wish the game was as great as your lore videos.. it would be perfect.
Not gonna lie, I only read the title and thought this was going to lead to another "the helmet stayed on" situation/misunderstanding
From the title my first thought: savathussy.
Second thought: this sounds like a title for the hub
Someone from our community with a wife, you Byf, are the most successful of us all.
If I remember correctly the area in the throne world that houses a bunch of containers of tainted light, the area where you retrieve the shard from the chrysalis, is under the wellspring. Maybe each vessel hold a guardians light that Savathun lure into the throne world. She is probably the more educated individual when it comes to the intricacies of the light. She had to know as soon as she made the bargain with Mara the worm gods would all know and Rhulk would act with the upended. She could have used the light she harvested to enact the light curse until she herself was able to maintain it with her own light.
Byf has a Wyf? Livin the good Lyf!
I wouldnt mind being kidnapped by mommy Savathun and go to her deep dark dungeon to play 😫😫😫
BONK!
BONK!
Ewww lol
"say no more fam" - ghost literally
Glad you're feeling better!
15:15 you couldn't resist the titan code 🤛🏻
Love your videos, idk how important it is you, but for umiñas name, ñ in Spanish makes it like “umin-ya””
“She starts monologuing.”
Wow..... she really opted to violence against us....
But didn't have to....
AAAAYEEEE BYF'S BACK
Uminas name has to be remembered what a G
not me just realizing that i havent been subscribed to byf after watching his vids for years. woops lol
What if Umina isn't dead, but trapped and may even have become one of Savathunes first direct guardian hive hybrid tests? They would be infused with hive magic and the light, which we see in things like the void crystals and lucient hive to have explosively powerful results. It wouldn't be the first time the hive have used a living being as a power source. With whatever torture Umina might go through in the process causing them to lose their mind and attack anything with their newfound power, Savathune might have had to lock them in the fountain. Instead of a victim of it, they would be a source, cursed to be trapped by hive magic mixed with light. Only reason I suggest this is because the lore entry doesn't specifically say they are dead or alive. Probably a wild thought but it would really be interesting and could lead to even more future possibilities to introduce the guardians to tools and powers of their own forged with light and hive magic. Sounds like we could use more weapons of hope in the future and this may lead to that.
Shoutout to ByfWyf for holding you down!
This is a remarkably different Savathun than her discussion with Nokris. Biting words that may hide meaning, but shorter monologues all together.
Something happened to her when she first corrupted Osiris. she is putting up less of a facade here than she did with her own kind way back in Arrivals.
Edit: wait so you’re telling me that Savathun used a guardian to “prime” her throne world before her conversion to the light? That’s wild
in one of the altars, she talked about her experiences living as a human, it definitely changed her a lot
@@redturtle8117 She was so used to be a cold and lying Witch, but living as Osiris she remembered What its like to be loved as a side effect of the connection she had with Osiris. She certainly was changed by that... But would that mean Osiris too has changed to be more hive like in mind?
Its a ghost and guardian frozen in time, to have an endless supply with traveler sourced light that is given to the ghosts
Welcome back :)
"if the scorn destroy it, we will be hurting"... Sorry, why don't we destroy it?
Hmm... She was searching for Osiris and got snatched up. Considering that he has no light that Savathûn could have used at the time, it's likely she used guardians that were alone and not so noticed by the tower. Remember the song on Titan? It wouldn't be the first time.
Im shaking and crying right now
Missed ya Byf!
Byfs apparently forgotten about the 9 guardians captured (and turned into void light crystals) in Savathuns Song.
Lol
just a question but will we be getting any lore on (and is there) what hawthorne has been up to since the end of the red war, and her opinions on whats happening?
Nice wife shoutout. They're the best parts of us. And we help them be the best they can.
Can you do a video on the Lucent Brood and their plans? I keep seeing people saying that they feel bad killing Hive Ghosts and that they weren't a threat to us, which this season proves is nonsense.
Awesome work!
LMAO I didnt expect Savuthun waifu this fast
In regards to the wellspring or whatever this trough of the gods is, is this how sav is able to gift the light to her hive? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we have a reason for the hive being chosen other than they're randomly chosen which is crazy because sav has a huge army of lucent hive.
Is she able to use this object to share her light or take it from others to give to her own hive?
If I’m not mistaken, the hive ghosts were disgruntled lone ghosts who haven’t found a guardian to revive yet.
@@dexterthielhelm4342 fair enough, I'd be pretty pissed to if I was wondering around the cosmos for decent corpse and couldn't find one amongst the billions of them
not sure if it has any merit but standing in the well itself slowly does damage over time
Will you cover the new Shayura lore found on the Aishas embrace scout?
Why don't Hive gods ever abduct me? 🥺
“Torture me, Mommy Xivu Aruth🤣”
Eris does this to us quite a lot already
Mrs. Byf is the real hero here. Thanks helping bring our lore daddy back!
Is tslayp gonna come back?
Could the Scorn not use the wellspring to gain control of and distribute the Light among themselves? Essentially stealing it from Savathûn and the Hive? I think you mentioned something about how the Wellspring is how the Light is distributed amongst the Hive. So, in theory, could the Scorn, instead of wanting to destroy it, rather want control of it so that they might obtain the Light and become more powerful? I’m sorry if it’s a dumb question, but it never hurts to ask, right? lol
16:07 Where is the “porodosia orahstrah” from at the end of the video?
1. Its per audacia ad Astra
2. What do you mean its seconds later
It's Latin, "Per Audacia Ad Astra" it means "To the stars through Boldness"
Per = through, Audacia = boldness, Ad = to, and astra = stars.
@@Davidtaylershow ahh thank you so much
@@kalibur4135 my bad I was a second and half off 😐
Those lore only supports even more that some of the lucent Hive that isn’t happy to kill guardians ghost will be the elo to a hive alliance if ever will be one. Savathun is not someone that bungie should make a ally. She’s a great character, I can see dark guardians allying with her, but not the vanguard nor us. She’s great as a third force in the dispute, but not as a convenience ally. People from the city wouldn’t aprove, lots os guardians too. I just can’t see Caitil stay on the alliance if we ever allow Savathun to be some kinda of ally to us, it would be super difficult already she accepting a Hive lieutenant to begin with.
Wish that guardian was me
Bro?
I would enjoy if u made an Elden Ring Lore channel
Hey Byf, Umina is a female hispanic name. Also the ñ is emphasized. Think "ooh-me-nya" for the phonetics.
I don't think one guardian or thousands of guardians killed over the centuries is enough power to keep a throne world together.
But the amount of light released when the Traveler's shell was cracked open during the Collapse?
Aye, that would be enough I think to do it.
Is this the guardian who leaked Witch Queen early?
At least this guardian wasn't caught by Rhulk and get stuck listening to his ramblings on THE UPENDED
🤨
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it doesn't have anything to do with Savathuns curse. I think Umina's was fed to the worm gods in order to help Savathun keep her throne world together. A healthy diet of light energy is what every growing worm god needs. Of course Savathun has grown in her power since gaining the light and as such maybe she is now using the light to stabilize the throne world. It could explain how we were able to beat her as she was concentrating on keeping her throne world together not the fight with us.
But can Moth Mommy deal with the Skrank Gang?
What if it's not the wellspring....what if it's the giant bowl where we had our final fight in during the campaign where the traveller suspended themselves over. What if the sacrificed guardian was the scent that the traveller needed to follow to get to the thrown world.....cause if they were they then maybe the traveller would not have know how to get to the thrown world....
Take ya time making content.
Byf reading this videos comments Will feel his light drain away by the thirsty guardians
There gonna be a fanfic 'bout this..m
What a lucky man, wish that was me, taken by savy mommy
Okay, we all know that about 80% of the people who read the title of this video immediately had the p@rnhub jingle play in their head.
Oh no a guardian was captured by savathun and forced to have an eternity of sex with a hive goddess, nobody would want that
Why didn't the Witnes free Rhulk from the cage Savathun trapped him in? I get the sword logic, if he wasn't strong enough to free himself yada yada but Witnes ain't stupid, it lost it's most powerful single ally/weapon by letting Savathun to trap Rhulk so we might kill him/keep him trapped and I'm sure it would have been half a finger snaps worth of effort from the Witnes to free Rhulk..
I actually wrote something similar for my guardian for shits and giggles
Plot Twist: The Light is keeping the Throne World alive AND being transferred to God Emperor of Mankind in the inmaterium! Praise the holy One of Terra!
So we're just gonna skip over Eris embracing stasis at the end of the Shadowkeep campaign? When she touches the artifact, turns around and has stasis crystals on her. Seems like she was the first to embrace it to me.
if that's a tilde above the n, like "ñ", then it'd be pronounced "ooh-min-ya", just fyi