Ive known Scott for about a decade now- ive seen his son born, walk, and grow up in front of my eyes. I have spent thousands of hours with Scott, my family friend and mentor, and I can honestly say... Out of anyone in the ET/RT universe, HE would be the one to hook MALICIOUSLY.
I play 90% of the time on clay here in Brazil and even on dirt sometimes is hard to even find the mark of the ball and have an agreement between players. If I'm on hard court, when in doubt I give the point on my side, just basic sportsmanship.
And depending on humidity, even on clay there is no mark. I live in the south (RS), we get a lot of foggy/+90% humidity days, and when the court is heavy, some balls just don't leave a mark.
My philosophy is that unless it’s clearly out, I won’t call it out. It’s tough when you are running too. I think there’s a least a few times a match where I have a sense the ball is just out but won’t make that call. The worst is when you play a notoriously bad line caller.
That’s the thing, right? You get a reputation for that, too. And people talk. I would much rather lose doing the right thing than win feeling like garbage questioning a call a made at an important juncture in a match.
On Sunday one of my calls was questioned by someone I play with regularly. I took it personally because being honest and fair is really important to me. We had words and for the rest of the game my heart was pounding and my game was off. I wish I’d kept my mouth shut and just moved on.
You’re probably right most bad calls are honest mistakes. But still, so many players don’t error on the side of the caution (giving opps benefit of the doubt) like we’re supposed to do. They error/lean towards calling close balls out.
I agree. It becomes an arms race when your opponent claims something is "clearly out" when at best it's too hard to tell. If that keeps happening then your choice is to call close balls out yourself or just decide to you don't care about winning that much.
@@DrAaronBHoffman right, kinda. It’s all perception. I’ve had plenty of opps question my calls through the years as we all have, and usually the calls they question aren’t even that close. But they think I’m making bad calls. So regardless if I was making bad calls or not, they often start making some bad calls themselves.
One factor that goes into the bad calls at the rec level is that people sometimes see what they want to see. Myself and some of my tennis buddies often joke that when someone makes a generous call that the call wouldn't be made on Sunday during a USTA match. Good video there were times I felt guilty wondering if I really made the right call or not. We all blow them from time to time and over the course of most matches things even out.
So yeah, it’s clear I was way off on my call. My clear memory if the moment is as follows: it was a very tight game with a nice back and forth, at least a couple of deuces, and I was definitely feeling the need to win this game. This rally itself was particularly intense, and when he unloaded this final forehand, I want to say that I thought he overcooked it and went a bit long. The mental mistake I made was that I completed the play with my mind, and seeing a mark that was clearly out was the thing that convinced me I was right. In retrospect, it was clearly wishful thinking, but in my meager defense, Joey hit the living shit out of that ball. I was honestly mortified at my error, and I immediately texted Joey to say how bad I felt that it appeared I had hooked him. Joey is one of the nicest assassins I know, and it is a privilege and honor to have him willing to put me to sleep on several occasions after this happened. I regret my error, I’m glad it’s a teachable moment, and most of all, I’m glad Joey and I are cool.
Enjoy the channel I always add the phrase during a pivotal point on a close call in league play and even in tournaments, “unless you saw something different” Only once has someone actually disagreed with me calling it out. It was a fast serve and his partner agreed I missed the call. We replayed the point. I tell my son calling lines is very hard. The older I get, the harder it is.
Bad calls usually are not intentional, rather mistaken POV calls or a bad view point on court. Just stop playing with the cheaters and bad sportsman players. No real need to play gamesmanship back or call an unofficial line judge over.
I like the rule "If there is doubt its not out". If someone is looking at it for a while before calling it they have doubt. I also think the calls that go to the back baseline sometimes look in when they are out due to the distance and angle. Thanks for the video.
I just played a USTA singles match where I was getting destroyed. In addition, I felt like there were a handful of bad line calls. And I really needed those points. I don’t think it was malicious at all. She really didn’t need those points. But it was so frustrating!!!
I have great (Lasik aided) vision and used to call lines "as I saw them," which could be pretty tight. However, I've seen so many replay reviews in pro tournaments lately where the ball looks CLEARLY out where they go back and a little part of the ball squashed to just barely clip the line. I'd have bet my life on some of them that they were out (good thing I didn't or I wouldn't be writing this comment!). I've now decided that anything I see within a couple of inches I'm just going to call in and not worry about it. On the other end, I've deliberately made peace with whatever bad calls my opponent makes on the thought that if I hit a ball that close to the line, it's really luck whether it was in or not anyways. I used to get stressed if I called a ball out that was close, or even if I called it in (I'd think "oh that was out I should have won that point). Making the decision to just stop worrying about it has increased both the quality of my tennis and also my enjoyment a great deal.
Would love a follow-up video on if it makes any sense to say, “Are you sure?” on hard court versus soft court when you think a bad call just happened. Lots of differing opinions on if it is appropriate (Eg, are you calling me a liar reactions 😮)
I used to play in a group and there was this one particular player who I started becoming very suspicious of since he seemed to often make bad calls. I started to call him out on his bad calls after a while. I hit one serve down the middle and since I was in the middle of the court, could clearly see the ball go in but he called it out. I argued about the call and he took it back and I had a replay. The next week, I played against this guy and was at the net. He hit a shot to me and I put it right in the middle of the line. He was standing right over top of where the ball hit the line and he called it out and started laughing. I argued about the call but he refused to change his call. That was it for me. I clearly caught him cheating and my partner agreed that he blew the call. I quit the group because I couldn't stand playing with an obvious cheater. To be quite honest, this guy wasn't very good and my opinion was the only way he could stay in a game was to cheat.
I've started recording some of my friendly hitting sessions and noticed some really bad calls on my part. So much so I'm embarrassed to show my hitting partner the video. The bad calls are both for and against me (sometimes I think their shot was in when it was actually way out). While it's nice to know everyone does it I still don't feel comfortable playing USTA matches and getting into arguments with my opponent over line calls.
If you’re only 99.99% sure the ball is out, then call it in. Always give the benefit of the doubt to your opponent, and hope he or she will reciprocate.
Honestly, bad line calls make me question whether I even want to play tennis 😂 Every week pretty much. The sense of injustice hurts my soul. I want to be that Zen person. I want to be liked. I want to keep the match friendly. But oh boy, those bad line calls drive me into an internal rage. It’s much easier if me/my team go on to win, but seeing the smug look of satisfaction on an opponents face knowing they cheated, ahhhhhh 😂😂 I meditate, do yoga, go to therapy, follow breathing techniques, ice baths…and none of it helps when it comes to bad line calls. Maybe I’m not cut out for tennis eh.
Wow, so sorry to read that. It sounds like you're already pretty aware this is a "you" problem. In other words, lots of players can face those exact same situations and let it go, like water off a duck's back, but for whatever reason, probably something in your past, it's hugely triggering to you. All I can really say for sure is it doesn't have to be that way and I hope you keep working towards finding peace on the court!
On the flip side, there are people who genuinely believe that their ball is in, even when it's a foot or more out :). Usually, they are people who like to hit harder than they are capable of. So I guess, it goes both ways.
If you don't think it's possible for the ball to be well in and the player REALLY thinks it's out, completely honestly, then you don't understand how hard it is to make the right call every time.
@@henrytoussant9385 Sometimes the ball lands inside the line, but it comes fast, with spin, you are on the move and there is sun/light reflecting somewhere close to your eyes. From the spin angle, you think it will go 2 meters out. Suddenly the ball drops, there is reflection, and you see it close to the line, but considering the trajectory speed, you are certain it was out. Except it wasn't. It happens.
@@TenisAmador Yes I agree if the shot was very flat and skidded low on the court or if the sun prevented you from seeing. But then you didn't see it and you HAVE to call it in. Why? BECAUSE you didn't see it!!!! In this case, the shot was not that fast, it had a lot of shape to it and it was indoors. There is no excuse. I'm not saying he hooked. I'm saying somehow he lost focus and did not see it. He even hesitated. He has to call it in even if he has some doubts.
@@henrytoussant9385 Well, let's agree to disagree. Sometimes the ball trajectory can make you truly believe it was out, and not in. That does not mean the person is malicious, as you are implying.
2 types of missed calls. The most common is being out of position for the call compounded by not seeing compression. The other one that leads to the worst calls is seeing color between the ball and the line and transposing which side of the line it was on. That is probably what happened in the 2 examples from this clip. It does tend to happen more often when the the player really wants the ball to be out. A common example of being in a bad position is when we play serves that are long because we didn’t see color between the ball and the line.
Could you do a video testing the swingvision app to see if there line calling is correct or not. would be good to know. as i want to use that to remove the confrontation
I tend to challenge player's s judgement when I see that they are making poor calls. When confronted with, "How far out was that ball?" it is disconcerting how often the response is a shoulder shrug accompanied with "I don't know." For F's sake, If you don't know how far outside the line ball lands, then you should probably be calling it in. And if you are assuming it is one millimeter, you should also call that in.
I generally give the opponent the benefit of the doubt on close calls on my side. But I noticed, I'm less likely to do that if the match is tight or the point is crucial. Human nature, huh?
I think competitive folk including me find it hard to be objective in a competitive situation and when you really really want a ball to be in or out, it is quite easy to "see" it as in or out. So even if you are an honest person and would never deliberately cheat, you may be sure the ball was in or out even when it was pretty obvious that it was not. As I say, I think almost all competitive tennis players have this problem although of course some people do rather give in to this tendency and end up calling most important points the way they would want them to be. I think even most of these people whose judgement is crazily screwed are largely calling it as they see it 🙂
A parent once said to the intermountain team(I think 16's) "When in Doubt.... Call it Out" Also had a friend who was a top junior in colorado playing a tournament. He told me he wanted to win so badly that on match point he called it out when the ball hit the baseline. THe other kids father was there watching and went beserk. My friend told me the ball was clearly in and never did it again after that. I was even watching a 4.5 tournament here in Denver (city open) I was playing as well and was watching next court on a break , the ball hits the line clearly and guy calls it out. I really think he saw it out....
I don't think Scott purposely made a bad call either, but what is also interesting is that he didn't make an immediate call. He stares at the line area for awhile and walks closer up to the line and picks a spot and calls it just barely out with a hand signal as well. Seeing the video, it wasn't even close. So, what did he actually see? A faint old spot, on clay you may have more of a case? Does the pause indicate some doubt? Should he have called it in then?
It goes the other way to. You may *think* your opponent made a bad call on a close bounce but you’re in an even worse position than they are to get it right.
Thanks, Ian. All fair points. But is it ok to say, "are you sure?" or is that not proper etiquette? I think at least it lets the other player know that possibly a bad call was made and maybe gives notice to be careful. I never ask for a call to be reversed but if maybe the other player isn't sure, he or she might change the call. So what is proper etiquette?
The ones I take issue with are the ones where I have the superior position. For instance I hit down the line and the other player is on the other side of the court, usually running. I am standing still looking to see if I have hit a winner or it's out. It's in, yay! But they call it out. It's maddening and when you say it's a bad call, they don't defer to you. Sometimes when the other player has the better view like that and I ask them, they will say they couldn't tell. BS. It was out and they don't want to admit it. I feel like I am painfully honest. I only call it out if I am 100% sure and often play balls that I think are out but because it's a touch one to call (a cross court ball), I play it. Esp. at the rec level (4.0 league here), it's so hard, we hit so many unforced errors, to have winners stolen from us hurts. So I just don't do it. I've even called my own shots out, like in the league last year I hit a serve down the T that was a couple inches wide and the other player took it as an ace. It was in a tiebreak to 10 to decide the match, and I still told the other player it was out. I just wish others would be similarly honest. (Though in that match the other player was an honest line caller, if I had been cheated in the match I would have accepted the ace.)
@@EssentialTennis Yes, I did. I also watched tennis troll knocking on his door talking to him about it. After all that, his calls seem to be more accurate. Well....time will tell. One thing to be noted here is that his game style depends heavily on his opponent's errors, not him hitting winners.
When I started playing matches I was too nice and used to intentionally make bad calls that would give my opponent the advantage. If my opponent hit a ball that was out but very close to the line I would feel bad and say it was in even though it was out. Nowadays I don't do that since I'm more competitive and don't think it's fun for my opponent if I make intentionally bad calls even if it helps them.
I can say for me at least that at times as the ball approaches and I think it's going to be out then all of a sudden it's in, I get caught up in a situation where I call it out. I have done it many times, and thanks to my partial blindness it's happens more than I like...but I totally see that it's in. I have started just recalling my judgement and saying that the ball was in. It's kinda an ego bruiser, but even though the whole thing may look stupid externally, it keeps me more honest and gains respect of my opponent. I can't speak about Scott, but his situation and mine look identical where he's caught up in a thought (while he wasn't active enough to run for the ball since he thought it was out, or just plain overthinking the opponent's shot) then all of a sudden the opponent's ball is in...our ego gets in the way and we call it out. It's hard to explain it, but it's totally innocent. It's a controversial topic, but it's usually good to resolve the whole thing fast and move forward to enjoy the rest of the game. Cheers, M
@@EssentialTennis You guys would probably know this better than most, seeing so many games. Hopefully my so many thoughts and ideas make sense in my sentences.
I’ve stopped playing with a few guys over the years due to really crappy line calls, balls clearly in but purposely called out. I had one guy who called balls out that landed 6 inches inside the line. Unless a ball is clearly out I play it as in. I expect the same from my opponent. There are plenty of balls that are probably out that I play as in just because it’s close and I’m running so I’m not exactly sure. I also call my own balls out from the other side of the court.
Just in this week's match Medvedev hit a pure "out" & the line umpire did NOT call it "out". More surprising is that the opponent of Medvedev played that shot normally & the play went ahead. After the play was over, they showed it for the TV viewers(I was also watching my TV) that Medvedev hit a pure "out" & the opponent did NOT challenge🤷
A guy i regularly hit with is terrible at line calls 95% in his favor of course. Given my movement is worse than my opponents almost always, i have to rely on aggressiveness and power. So needless to say when anything close to the baseline is called out it throws me right off and can breakdown my game. I dont think he's cheating, i think he sees what he wants to see. I seriously considered not hitting with him, but regular local hitting partners aren't easy to find and i decided ill just have to play with a court 1 foot smaller vs him and forget the results. Its mainly practice for me anyway.
Unless it is Nadal vs Federer at Wimbledon , it is does not matter. Matches are won and lost throughout the match, not the last point. If a line call bothers you, maybe you should have not have lost the first set. The is the beauty of tennis game/set scoring, the match score keeps resetting. The better player (at that moment) will win.
Line judges are really not needed anymore for professional tours. In your two examples, I think Scott and MEP were intentional to mess up with their opponents’ minds. Just because they are too experienced.
First time I was disappointed in one of your videos, so you have a great batting average with me. However, in this case I was hoping for some concrete recommendations or examples of what you do, or people you know and respect who are successful on the court do, when confronting obvious cheating being done to gain an advantage. On a personal level, not only have I experieced it, but know of a college coach who coached his players to 'get into the heads' of their opponents with various tactics that are all considered unsportsmanlike, e.g., questioning line calls or scores simply to disrupt the opponents rythm and concentration, delaying to slow down an opponet or making comments to rush them, asking for bathroom or medical breaks to change the momentum of a match when they are not needed, and yes making 'strategic' bad calls at critical points. I have seen several methods, and used several myself, to deal with these situations. I was hoping for your perspective on the issue which is more common that you seem to think, when it is put under the banner of "intentional acts that are unsportsmanlike" done to gain an advantage on the court that a player cannot achieve with their strokes or game.
Ya, this video simply wasn't about the 1% of calls that are purposefully and maliciously bad. Completely different focus. Maybe I'll do a video about malicious calls in the future. Cheers!
I allow probably up to 3 "missed" calls in a set with the intention of playing every ball on my side that's close. But after 3 on the other side, I will be waiting to use mine on breakpoints. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't know how trustworthy video is. We can see which frame has the ball at the lowest height -- but does that mean this is where the ball touched the court? The ball would have touched down somewhere between that and either the preceding or the following frame.
In general, yes. Not in the two examples here. There’s no way either ball could’ve landed out with the trajectory down into and then back up from the court, even if the frame rate isn’t sufficient to see exactly where they landed. The trajectory makes it clear.
Shoot me an email and we'll set up the match: ian@essentialtennis.com . Or, you can be like literally every other person who's ever made comments like that on the channel and wuss out.
Get 15% off ALL Diadem gear here: diademsports.com/discount/ET15 Their racquets, strings, grips and balls are all fantastic!
Ive known Scott for about a decade now- ive seen his son born, walk, and grow up in front of my eyes. I have spent thousands of hours with Scott, my family friend and mentor, and I can honestly say...
Out of anyone in the ET/RT universe, HE would be the one to hook MALICIOUSLY.
😱
You’re my little onion, bringing tears to my eyes. Love ya, Mark.
LOL....love this...lol.
IRL you know i like you if im trolling you.
Biggest anime betrayal on UA-cam comment
I play 90% of the time on clay here in Brazil and even on dirt sometimes is hard to even find the mark of the ball and have an agreement between players. If I'm on hard court, when in doubt I give the point on my side, just basic sportsmanship.
Good for you!
And depending on humidity, even on clay there is no mark. I live in the south (RS), we get a lot of foggy/+90% humidity days, and when the court is heavy, some balls just don't leave a mark.
My philosophy is that unless it’s clearly out, I won’t call it out. It’s tough when you are running too. I think there’s a least a few times a match where I have a sense the ball is just out but won’t make that call. The worst is when you play a notoriously bad line caller.
Totally agree! Thanks for watching.
"If it's 99% out, it's 100% in"
That’s the thing, right? You get a reputation for that, too. And people talk. I would much rather lose doing the right thing than win feeling like garbage questioning a call a made at an important juncture in a match.
On Sunday one of my calls was questioned by someone I play with regularly. I took it personally because being honest and fair is really important to me. We had words and for the rest of the game my heart was pounding and my game was off. I wish I’d kept my mouth shut and just moved on.
Other people are going to do al kinds of random/crazy stuff. All you can control is yourself and what you focus on!
You’re probably right most bad calls are honest mistakes. But still, so many players don’t error on the side of the caution (giving opps benefit of the doubt) like we’re supposed to do. They error/lean towards calling close balls out.
.....but they probably think they ARE erroring on the side of caution.
@@EssentialTennis maybe, maybe not. But that’s an entirely separate issue, too, if true.
I agree. It becomes an arms race when your opponent claims something is "clearly out" when at best it's too hard to tell. If that keeps happening then your choice is to call close balls out yourself or just decide to you don't care about winning that much.
@@DrAaronBHoffman right, kinda. It’s all perception. I’ve had plenty of opps question my calls through the years as we all have, and usually the calls they question aren’t even that close. But they think I’m making bad calls. So regardless if I was making bad calls or not, they often start making some bad calls themselves.
One factor that goes into the bad calls at the rec level is that people sometimes see what they want to see. Myself and some of my tennis buddies often joke that when someone makes a generous call that the call wouldn't be made on Sunday during a USTA match. Good video there were times I felt guilty wondering if I really made the right call or not. We all blow them from time to time and over the course of most matches things even out.
Just keep focusing on doing the best you can and you can sleep well at night. There's nothing we can do to control or change anybody else.
So yeah, it’s clear I was way off on my call. My clear memory if the moment is as follows: it was a very tight game with a nice back and forth, at least a couple of deuces, and I was definitely feeling the need to win this game. This rally itself was particularly intense, and when he unloaded this final forehand, I want to say that I thought he overcooked it and went a bit long. The mental mistake I made was that I completed the play with my mind, and seeing a mark that was clearly out was the thing that convinced me I was right. In retrospect, it was clearly wishful thinking, but in my meager defense, Joey hit the living shit out of that ball.
I was honestly mortified at my error, and I immediately texted Joey to say how bad I felt that it appeared I had hooked him. Joey is one of the nicest assassins I know, and it is a privilege and honor to have him willing to put me to sleep on several occasions after this happened. I regret my error, I’m glad it’s a teachable moment, and most of all, I’m glad Joey and I are cool.
No worries, we've all done it. Every one of us.
@@EssentialTennis thanks for the kind words, Ian!
Enjoy the channel
I always add the phrase during a pivotal point on a close call in league play and even in tournaments, “unless you saw something different”
Only once has someone actually disagreed with me calling it out. It was a fast serve and his partner agreed I missed the call. We replayed the point.
I tell my son calling lines is very hard. The older I get, the harder it is.
Interesting approach, I like that
Bad calls usually are not intentional, rather mistaken POV calls or a bad view point on court. Just stop playing with the cheaters and bad sportsman players. No real need to play gamesmanship back or call an unofficial line judge over.
I like the rule "If there is doubt its not out". If someone is looking at it for a while before calling it they have doubt. I also think the calls that go to the back baseline sometimes look in when they are out due to the distance and angle. Thanks for the video.
I just played a USTA singles match where I was getting destroyed. In addition, I felt like there were a handful of bad line calls. And I really needed those points. I don’t think it was malicious at all. She really didn’t need those points. But it was so frustrating!!!
I have great (Lasik aided) vision and used to call lines "as I saw them," which could be pretty tight. However, I've seen so many replay reviews in pro tournaments lately where the ball looks CLEARLY out where they go back and a little part of the ball squashed to just barely clip the line. I'd have bet my life on some of them that they were out (good thing I didn't or I wouldn't be writing this comment!). I've now decided that anything I see within a couple of inches I'm just going to call in and not worry about it. On the other end, I've deliberately made peace with whatever bad calls my opponent makes on the thought that if I hit a ball that close to the line, it's really luck whether it was in or not anyways. I used to get stressed if I called a ball out that was close, or even if I called it in (I'd think "oh that was out I should have won that point). Making the decision to just stop worrying about it has increased both the quality of my tennis and also my enjoyment a great deal.
Would love a follow-up video on if it makes any sense to say, “Are you sure?” on hard court versus soft court when you think a bad call just happened. Lots of differing opinions on if it is appropriate (Eg, are you calling me a liar reactions 😮)
Good idea!
other issue outside is the sun and glare on hard courts... and don't get me going about pickleball lines
Good points
I used to play in a group and there was this one particular player who I started becoming very suspicious of since he seemed to often make bad calls. I started to call him out on his bad calls after a while. I hit one serve down the middle and since I was in the middle of the court, could clearly see the ball go in but he called it out. I argued about the call and he took it back and I had a replay. The next week, I played against this guy and was at the net. He hit a shot to me and I put it right in the middle of the line. He was standing right over top of where the ball hit the line and he called it out and started laughing. I argued about the call but he refused to change his call. That was it for me. I clearly caught him cheating and my partner agreed that he blew the call. I quit the group because I couldn't stand playing with an obvious cheater. To be quite honest, this guy wasn't very good and my opinion was the only way he could stay in a game was to cheat.
I've started recording some of my friendly hitting sessions and noticed some really bad calls on my part. So much so I'm embarrassed to show my hitting partner the video. The bad calls are both for and against me (sometimes I think their shot was in when it was actually way out). While it's nice to know everyone does it I still don't feel comfortable playing USTA matches and getting into arguments with my opponent over line calls.
If you’re only 99.99% sure the ball is out, then call it in. Always give the benefit of the doubt to your opponent, and hope he or she will reciprocate.
Why will they reciprocate??? If they hit that shot then they will obviously get agitated & say that it is "in".
Honestly, bad line calls make me question whether I even want to play tennis 😂 Every week pretty much.
The sense of injustice hurts my soul. I want to be that Zen person. I want to be liked. I want to keep the match friendly. But oh boy, those bad line calls drive me into an internal rage.
It’s much easier if me/my team go on to win, but seeing the smug look of satisfaction on an opponents face knowing they cheated, ahhhhhh 😂😂
I meditate, do yoga, go to therapy, follow breathing techniques, ice baths…and none of it helps when it comes to bad line calls.
Maybe I’m not cut out for tennis eh.
Wow, so sorry to read that. It sounds like you're already pretty aware this is a "you" problem. In other words, lots of players can face those exact same situations and let it go, like water off a duck's back, but for whatever reason, probably something in your past, it's hugely triggering to you. All I can really say for sure is it doesn't have to be that way and I hope you keep working towards finding peace on the court!
On the flip side, there are people who genuinely believe that their ball is in, even when it's a foot or more out :). Usually, they are people who like to hit harder than they are capable of. So I guess, it goes both ways.
Sure bad calls happen. But not when the ball is almost a foot inside the line. If you didn't see it clearly out, gotta call it in.
If you don't think it's possible for the ball to be well in and the player REALLY thinks it's out, completely honestly, then you don't understand how hard it is to make the right call every time.
@@EssentialTennis Sure, if you forgot your contacts. Foot in? LOL, come on. Especially if you are hesitating and are not sure, then you call It in.
@@henrytoussant9385 Sometimes the ball lands inside the line, but it comes fast, with spin, you are on the move and there is sun/light reflecting somewhere close to your eyes. From the spin angle, you think it will go 2 meters out. Suddenly the ball drops, there is reflection, and you see it close to the line, but considering the trajectory speed, you are certain it was out. Except it wasn't.
It happens.
@@TenisAmador Yes I agree if the shot was very flat and skidded low on the court or if the sun prevented you from seeing. But then you didn't see it and you HAVE to call it in. Why? BECAUSE you didn't see it!!!! In this case, the shot was not that fast, it had a lot of shape to it and it was indoors. There is no excuse. I'm not saying he hooked. I'm saying somehow he lost focus and did not see it. He even hesitated. He has to call it in even if he has some doubts.
@@henrytoussant9385 Well, let's agree to disagree. Sometimes the ball trajectory can make you truly believe it was out, and not in. That does not mean the person is malicious, as you are implying.
Nice to know that it won't get better the longer I play hahaha. One bad call doesn't make a game if I won't let it.
I don’t ever want to be a line judge.
2 types of missed calls. The most common is being out of position for the call compounded by not seeing compression. The other one that leads to the worst calls is seeing color between the ball and the line and transposing which side of the line it was on. That is probably what happened in the 2 examples from this clip. It does tend to happen more often when the the player really wants the ball to be out. A common example of being in a bad position is when we play serves that are long because we didn’t see color between the ball and the line.
'exposing BAD tennis line calls...?' Bad line calls are one of the last weapons I have! I'm 52!
😆
Great research. Great advice.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Could you do a video testing the swingvision app to see if there line calling is correct or not. would be good to know. as i want to use that to remove the confrontation
Ya that's a good idea.
Ian, you didn't mention that sometimes balls that are out are called in. Mistakes are made both ways.
💯 Super good point.
I tend to challenge player's s judgement when I see that they are making poor calls. When confronted with, "How far out was that ball?" it is disconcerting how often the response is a shoulder shrug accompanied with "I don't know." For F's sake, If you don't know how far outside the line ball lands, then you should probably be calling it in. And if you are assuming it is one millimeter, you should also call that in.
😆. I agree, that's a bad sign.
I generally give the opponent the benefit of the doubt on close calls on my side. But I noticed, I'm less likely to do that if the match is tight or the point is crucial. Human nature, huh?
I think competitive folk including me find it hard to be objective in a competitive situation and when you really really want a ball to be in or out, it is quite easy to "see" it as in or out. So even if you are an honest person and would never deliberately cheat, you may be sure the ball was in or out even when it was pretty obvious that it was not. As I say, I think almost all competitive tennis players have this problem although of course some people do rather give in to this tendency and end up calling most important points the way they would want them to be. I think even most of these people whose judgement is crazily screwed are largely calling it as they see it 🙂
Appreciate your honesty, Paul!
Nothing is gonna work in our favour so just take the hit & practice harder😓
Things work in your favor all the time. Keep working hard!
good topic, good advice!
Thanks for watching, Rick!
A parent once said to the intermountain team(I think 16's) "When in Doubt.... Call it Out"
Also had a friend who was a top junior in colorado playing a tournament. He told me he wanted to win so badly that on match point he called it out when the ball hit the baseline. THe other kids father was there watching and went beserk. My friend told me the ball was clearly in and never did it again after that. I was even watching a 4.5 tournament here in Denver (city open) I was playing as well and was watching next court on a break , the ball hits the line clearly and guy calls it out. I really think he saw it out....
Feel free to focus on whichever people/actions/events make you most happy 🙂
I don't think Scott purposely made a bad call either, but what is also interesting is that he didn't make an immediate call. He stares at the line area for awhile and walks closer up to the line and picks a spot and calls it just barely out with a hand signal as well. Seeing the video, it wasn't even close. So, what did he actually see? A faint old spot, on clay you may have more of a case? Does the pause indicate some doubt? Should he have called it in then?
It goes the other way to. You may *think* your opponent made a bad call on a close bounce but you’re in an even worse position than they are to get it right.
💯
Thanks, Ian. All fair points. But is it ok to say, "are you sure?" or is that not proper etiquette? I think at least it lets the other player know that possibly a bad call was made and maybe gives notice to be careful. I never ask for a call to be reversed but if maybe the other player isn't sure, he or she might change the call. So what is proper etiquette?
The ones I take issue with are the ones where I have the superior position. For instance I hit down the line and the other player is on the other side of the court, usually running. I am standing still looking to see if I have hit a winner or it's out. It's in, yay! But they call it out. It's maddening and when you say it's a bad call, they don't defer to you.
Sometimes when the other player has the better view like that and I ask them, they will say they couldn't tell. BS. It was out and they don't want to admit it.
I feel like I am painfully honest. I only call it out if I am 100% sure and often play balls that I think are out but because it's a touch one to call (a cross court ball), I play it. Esp. at the rec level (4.0 league here), it's so hard, we hit so many unforced errors, to have winners stolen from us hurts. So I just don't do it.
I've even called my own shots out, like in the league last year I hit a serve down the T that was a couple inches wide and the other player took it as an ace. It was in a tiebreak to 10 to decide the match, and I still told the other player it was out. I just wish others would be similarly honest. (Though in that match the other player was an honest line caller, if I had been cheated in the match I would have accepted the ace.)
that's one advantage of playing on clay courts, most of the time you can clearly see the bounce.
💯
Scott's call was definitely unintentional (honest mistake). But I don't know about MEP's calls which happened a lot on many matches 😅
I honestly don't think Ben would ever cheat. Have you seen my sit down interview with him?
@@EssentialTennis Yes, I did. I also watched tennis troll knocking on his door talking to him about it. After all that, his calls seem to be more accurate. Well....time will tell. One thing to be noted here is that his game style depends heavily on his opponent's errors, not him hitting winners.
....you realize that Subash knocking on Ben's door was all set up/a sketch, right?
@@EssentialTennis Yes, of course, I realized that 😉 Just in general, his calls have been more fair after all those episodes.
I can't find the video where Ben is visited by the Tennis Troll at his house. Does anyone have the link?
Mostly we decide to replay that point if we argue in the recreational match ;)
When I started playing matches I was too nice and used to intentionally make bad calls that would give my opponent the advantage. If my opponent hit a ball that was out but very close to the line I would feel bad and say it was in even though it was out. Nowadays I don't do that since I'm more competitive and don't think it's fun for my opponent if I make intentionally bad calls even if it helps them.
I can say for me at least that at times as the ball approaches and I think it's going to be out then all of a sudden it's in, I get caught up in a situation where I call it out. I have done it many times, and thanks to my partial blindness it's happens more than I like...but I totally see that it's in. I have started just recalling my judgement and saying that the ball was in. It's kinda an ego bruiser, but even though the whole thing may look stupid externally, it keeps me more honest and gains respect of my opponent.
I can't speak about Scott, but his situation and mine look identical where he's caught up in a thought (while he wasn't active enough to run for the ball since he thought it was out, or just plain overthinking the opponent's shot) then all of a sudden the opponent's ball is in...our ego gets in the way and we call it out. It's hard to explain it, but it's totally innocent.
It's a controversial topic, but it's usually good to resolve the whole thing fast and move forward to enjoy the rest of the game.
Cheers,
M
That's definitely happened to ALL of us! Tough situation!
@@EssentialTennis You guys would probably know this better than most, seeing so many games. Hopefully my so many thoughts and ideas make sense in my sentences.
I’ve stopped playing with a few guys over the years due to really crappy line calls, balls clearly in but purposely called out. I had one guy who called balls out that landed 6 inches inside the line. Unless a ball is clearly out I play it as in. I expect the same from my opponent. There are plenty of balls that are probably out that I play as in just because it’s close and I’m running so I’m not exactly sure. I also call my own balls out from the other side of the court.
You should include the statistic that 25% of the challenge calls at Wimbledon are actually wrong. They call balls out that are actually in.
Sorry, not following? So the line judges at Wimbledon are wrong 25% of the time? Just like the US Open?
Just in this week's match Medvedev hit a pure "out" & the line umpire did NOT call it "out".
More surprising is that the opponent of Medvedev played that shot normally & the play went ahead.
After the play was over, they showed it for the TV viewers(I was also watching my TV) that Medvedev hit a pure "out" & the opponent did NOT challenge🤷
I may make bad calls, but I don't make dishonest calls.
That's all any of us can ask for!
A guy i regularly hit with is terrible at line calls 95% in his favor of course. Given my movement is worse than my opponents almost always, i have to rely on aggressiveness and power. So needless to say when anything close to the baseline is called out it throws me right off and can breakdown my game. I dont think he's cheating, i think he sees what he wants to see.
I seriously considered not hitting with him, but regular local hitting partners aren't easy to find and i decided ill just have to play with a court 1 foot smaller vs him and forget the results. Its mainly practice for me anyway.
This is why I prefer clay! Not just because it suits my gamestyle but because it's easier to get the calls right.
Totally agree
There's always a guy who is terrible at line calling.
Unless it is Nadal vs Federer at Wimbledon , it is does not matter. Matches are won and lost throughout the match, not the last point. If a line call bothers you, maybe you should have not have lost the first set. The is the beauty of tennis game/set scoring, the match score keeps resetting. The better player (at that moment) will win.
I like that attitude a lot!
Line judges are really not needed anymore for professional tours. In your two examples, I think Scott and MEP were intentional to mess up with their opponents’ minds. Just because they are too experienced.
They weren't intentional.
First time I was disappointed in one of your videos, so you have a great batting average with me.
However, in this case I was hoping for some concrete recommendations or examples of what you do, or people you know and respect who are successful on the court do, when confronting obvious cheating being done to gain an advantage.
On a personal level, not only have I experieced it, but know of a college coach who coached his players to 'get into the heads' of their opponents with various tactics that are all considered unsportsmanlike, e.g., questioning line calls or scores simply to disrupt the opponents rythm and concentration, delaying to slow down an opponet or making comments to rush them, asking for bathroom or medical breaks to change the momentum of a match when they are not needed, and yes making 'strategic' bad calls at critical points.
I have seen several methods, and used several myself, to deal with these situations. I was hoping for your perspective on the issue which is more common that you seem to think, when it is put under the banner of "intentional acts that are unsportsmanlike" done to gain an advantage on the court that a player cannot achieve with their strokes or game.
Ya, this video simply wasn't about the 1% of calls that are purposefully and maliciously bad. Completely different focus. Maybe I'll do a video about malicious calls in the future. Cheers!
could just use swingvision. it's not as accurate as hawkeye but definitely better than humans most of the time
Ya I'm looking forward to that kind of tech getting better and better.
I allow probably up to 3 "missed" calls in a set with the intention of playing every ball on my side that's close. But after 3 on the other side, I will be waiting to use mine on breakpoints. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't know how trustworthy video is. We can see which frame has the ball at the lowest height -- but does that mean this is where the ball touched the court? The ball would have touched down somewhere between that and either the preceding or the following frame.
In general, yes. Not in the two examples here. There’s no way either ball could’ve landed out with the trajectory down into and then back up from the court, even if the frame rate isn’t sufficient to see exactly where they landed. The trajectory makes it clear.
That old guy needs to move around faster and walk faster, or just retire. he's making tennis look bad
Come at me, bro
@@scottbroady3159 i can beat you without breaking a sweat, oldman, show some more energy out there or go play Golf
Shoot me an email and we'll set up the match: ian@essentialtennis.com . Or, you can be like literally every other person who's ever made comments like that on the channel and wuss out.
@@TheDrakulie strong words. I am not convinced that you can back them up.
@@TheDrakuliekeyboard warriors NEVER man up IRL. You wouldn’t actually play me, because you wouldn’t know what to do.
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playing in clay helps a lot with line calls ;)