Comparing Soft Catch Methods - Largest Climbing Study Part 2
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Which Method to give a soft Catch is the Best?
2 Year Long Research on Rock Climbing Falls.
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Part 1: • What's the best amount...
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00:00 Introduction
03:11 Test 1 - Small Falls
05:46 Test 2 - Big Falls
08:00 Test 3 - Outside
09:54 Stepping forward vs Jumping up
10:52 Heavy Belayer
15:00 Very Heavy Belayer
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Ben - Спорт
A little comment about bending the knees when jumping.
Even if you don't actually jump any higher if you bend your knees, it will still absorb force. This is because the rope is attached to your hips, not the bottoms of your feet. All the distance between your starting crouched position and the upright position even before your feet leave the ground also contributes to softening up the catch, so it's like you get an extra 30 or 40 cm of jump height for free.
It would be a shame if this study would remain a youtube series. You should publish these studies in a journal such that it gets broader coverage and others can build further research upon it.
I agree, and I wonder if there is a model to create a "hardness of catch" measure, using people's experience of how hard the catch is, and relating that to the vertical and horizontal acceleration and velocity, so it can be standardised across a bunch of different testing scenarios
There has been already a lot of testing way before youtube. the numbers on forces on the petzl website for example aren´t from nowhere.
There are print media at least all over europe at least. It´s a shame that the gen youtube doesn´t read anything. if there is no youtube film, no one under 30 seems to know what has been researched long ago. In the past there just was not much video content, as affordable video was not invented before 1990-2000.
several alpine clubs do a lot of research, they just do not make videos for entertainment. with a few exceptions.
ENSA (schhol for alpinism - french) ua-cam.com/video/eqZQnCGl24A/v-deo.html
they research more special topics already, as standard sports climbing belaying is kind of simple anyway.
there is a lot of information around already, just not everything on youtube.
often studies are kind of boring and only the results are written in monthly papers of security research.
it´s kind of worrying, that the youth obviously often did not know anything about that.
Mountain guides are trained for decades, out of books and experience from older mountain guides and researchers.
The knowledge mostly already is there.
but anyway, one more links to existing channel researching and teaching climbing, what already is common knowledge, and was researched off video.
alpine basics ua-cam.com/video/cK9LOygk6bk/v-deo.html
There's definitely not enough data for a scientific publication.
I was thinking exactly the same! It would be fantastic to publish this data!
For the akward cases when there is too much friction, heavy belayer, sketchy spot or overhang at the bottom where it is impossible to jump up or run, you can do an active squat (without heels touching the ground) and during the fall you get pulled up and if needed can jump too. Not for every situation, but can really help.
This series has really encouraged me to learn how to jump into soft catches, even though I only weigh 55kg.
This amount of quality being free is absolutely amazing !!
Thank you and everybody who participated for making this, it is super helpful
❤
As a note; stepping foward method is highly dependent on how high the first bolt is. The angle of the rope with the wall will determine how much of the horizontal movement will translate into actual rope sliding trhough the quickdraws.
Exactly! This very important to be said to heavier 100kg belayers. To always use the lowest, first bolt. And Ben used the 2nd or 3rd so stepping, walking was fault at the start. I am 104kg and belaying over 150hours per month. All soft by stepping!
totally true. I climb with my 50 kg girlfriend and a 60 kg boyfriend. Although I'm only 75 klg the difference is very big for belaying.
If the first point isn't clipped or is very high, I simply can't do anything dynamic with a grip. I have to back off a lot and walk a lot (too much).
And sometimes I have to pull the backhand out of the bag to do it properly.
my girlfriend and my boyfriend never have this problem . the belay is always dynamic . even when they drink tea when I fall ;)
@@namaxamedia4521 indeed! i think stepping forward is especially a great technique when the weight difference is large. Jumping is then superdifficult to perform, but doing 2 steps forward is perfect to slow a superlight belayer down. For me (40kg) and belayer (80kg) this worked perfectly.
Two things I’d like to note from an outdoor perspective on your trad video.
1) These tests the belayer is watching the climber, outdoors you often cannot see the climber (especially in multipitch!). As a heavier belayer who often belays small climbers outdoors, I have found that the step forward method is MUCH easier to do reactively when you can’t see the climber.
The “bend your knees a lot” approach for heavier belayers also only works for anticipated falls. To do this for a dry-fire or unseen climber requires being in a low squat the entire climb; that’s not really feasible for long climbs.
2) In the outdoor realm the vertical velocity is often of more concern to me. Ledges and other protrusions that the climber will hit are more dangerous than an uncomfortably hard catch. In these videos you are mostly in a gym, or a nearly perfect flat outdoor wall (where I would teach beginners to fall) where I would consider falling extremely safe. I’m wondering what technique would reduce the vertical velocity - or even how to reduce the fall distance with the softest catch.
Buuuttt… outdoors I’m usually Trad climbing, reducing the distance will likely increase force on the protection… I think… I guess I’ll have to wait on the trad video or know if that’s true…
I agree, whenever I see super long catches to make them softer I never feel it actually applies to outdoors climbing with ledges or even the practicality of red pointing a project where you don't want to end too far from the fall location.
This last method , taking some slack into the hand , we call in Germany „Sensorhand Dynamik“.
Nice word🤓
We haben been taught this by German Mountain guide association.
Use only for belaying very light guys , kids (!) with e.g. a Grigri.
The slack shall not slide through your fist .
At the beginning you hold against the rope-pull until your arm is straight . Then you release the rope and do whatever is needed (jumping up)
-> for experts only
Great content Ben, it was super fun being part of this experiment. In the end I learned that I have been doing something wrong for years 😅. Never to late to learn. ❤❤
First of all, thank you for the effort in producing this video.
My two cents:
The running forward method works incredibly well as a heavy belayer under the following circumstances.
1) The first quickdraw must be clipped in and needs to be reasonably low (as they tend to be in climbing gyms).
The lower the first quickdraw, the higher the increase in fall distance of the climber in regards of running distance.
2) The belayer has to react fast enough to increase momentum before the catch (this is the same with the jumping up method tho).
I also find this method exceptionally helpful on large very overhanging comp style routes due to more friction and the benefit of stepping away from the wall to keep eye contact to the climber.
And to 19:15 - IMHO this is not sketchy. The German alpine club (DAV) currently debates whether to teach this method in its advanced belay course. I learned this method when obtaining my coaching license, and even tho I prefer belaying with the feed through method, it combines the safety of assisted breaking with the additional softness; however, this only works with really light climbers (you need to be able to hold the climbers weight with one hand).
The feed through method is probably still the best method to belay children or really, really light climbers - if one knows what he's
doing. However, since this is really niche, I would expect not many people would classify in this category.
You are right. The method is called "Sensorhand" by the DAV (who recommend this) and for me (with enough Training) it is a very safe way for heavy belayers to belay really light climbers (30 - 50 kg lighter). The feed through method is for me also a very goog method for this circumstances. Jumping up is not working here anymore, only running forward, if the circumstances above are met.
@hard is easy
In my opinion you did the running forward method not the "right" (best) way, so your results does not match to my experience.
You also did not use a very heavy belayer (30 - 50kg difference) and to test the "Sensorhand" you have to train much more using this method (seems so in the vid).
So please do a third vid to get beetter data!!!
Great videos!!! My 2 cents: introducing friction (zig-zagging the rope) is not just like having a heavier belayer...it also effectively changes the fall factor.
With great friction comes harder catches, regardless of what the belayer does.
Think of the limit case: infinite friction in the (one to) last bolt, then it would be a fall factor 2, and it wouldn't matter what the belayer tries
yeah, i would have thought adding a weight vest to the belayer would be a more accurate way of testing this. Was surprised with the z clip solution.
Great stuff. One small note: when comparing peak velocities, it would probably make more sense to compare the velocity squared, because this is proportional to the energy that the body has to absorb.
The measurement error is already a problem, if you square the velocity it becomes worse. And since energy is a monotonically increasing function of the velocity, when comparing methods it doesn't really matter.
Great job, as always! As a belayer with a much lighter partner, I worry sometimes about low falls (2nd or 3rd clip). For her falls, the risk of foot injury seems high since I give a harder catch to prevent decking. For my falls, I worry about injuring her by colliding during the fall. I really look forward to your “low fall” series!
Love your videos Ben! As always well done and very informative. One remark, as a colorblind I had trouble differing the graphs, especially the bars at 13:20. Maybe there are better colors (maybe add structure to the lines instead of one color) to make them easier to read. keep up the good work!
Hope all is good! Take care and looking forward to your next video
When I'm belaying my (ca 25%) heavier climbing buddy the running forward method is straight up dangerous to myself for being slammed into the wall uncontrollably, and I'm pretty sure the risk of me breaking my ankles while belaying is higher when running towards the wall than it is for my climber when I do nothing (passive belay) when there isn't much rope drag :'). Fortunately jumping up works great for both, so that's what I do. Personally also find it much easier to time well
This is fantastic job Ben! Thank you so much and all your lovely helpers :)
Absolute respect for your level of nerding out on this topic. Love it!!
As an arborist, we use a version of the tube slide technique to rig down heavy pieces of wood from skinny trees. We call it "letting it run", and it is possible to give a very soft catch even with very static ropes if done expertly. Thanks for all your work and to all the people who gave time to this.
Very professional presentation with easily comprehensible data. Well done, and thank you for this video!!
I have never done any climbing with ropes but I still found this vid really interesting. So I must be some sort of geeky nerd type. I think I already knew I was a bit weird. Sometimes the YT algorithm throws up a vid that is no way related to anything I have ever watched before and I am totally fascinated by a subject I would never have looked for. Great vid my friend.
thank you so much for this video. a lot of it goes over my head but i understand now that jumping when i catch a fall is really important!
Thank you, Ben! Your videos are amazing!
Such an amazing work you are doing. Congrats!
Great series that should go beyond UA-cam... as a Netflix documentary or something! Also, was surprised to see myself in it 🌝
Thanks for helping! Much appreciate it!
The video I’ve been waiting for 🎉🎉
Very interesting video!! Thank you and Happy New Year 🎉🎉
Very interresting. Very good work.
Thank you !
I agree with the comment about your experience. I learned the jumping method when I started lead climbing years ago, and my current lighter climbers always comment on how soft the catches feel 😊. I keep the knees bent in anticipation.
every belaying technique can work just fine, as ben showedm as long as the belayer is aware and able to give a soft catch.
Great videoes! I'm impressed by the vaierity of realistic situations 😊😊
Perfect work thanks to all of you❤
This is just incredible. I don't have words.
Great stuff. One big note: thank you for your hard work.
Definitely looking forward to a deeper look into belaying falls on the first or second clip 🙏
Ben. I am 100kg belayer. We have met in Warsaw's Makak once. There is a significant mistake or faulty approach in your tests of walking soft catch.
It is very, very, very important to use the 1st, lowest bolt, quick draw to use the walking approach to soft belaying. As one needs to have the rope as parallel to the ground or floor that one is walking on.
If you use a 2nd or higher bolt, Quick draw the angle is strait up so walking distance is too small for this to work properly!
And waking is good for 85kg plus for 50kg climber and 95kg plus for 60kg climber.
You should use a sport car for delivery... right?
Wow, I'm really appreciating your engagement!!
It mirrors the experiences I make on rock and plastic.
19.14 ff you describe a method we (= German Alpine Club Educators) call "Sensorarm"-Method. It´s not really easy to handle in the process of belaying a lead climber; but it´s worth to learn for "long" routes outside with increasing rope drag or for belaying kids. Maybe you´re making a video in the future about that way of belaying.
The exact wording used by DAV is Sensorhand or Sensorhanddynamik.
@@loewenheartIn the "historical" timeline the subject was, sometimes still is called "sensorhanddynamik" because of the fact that the hand was meant to be used as a sensor for soft catches. Some colleagues and I (I'm one of those guys in the DAV who teach that) prefer the term "sensorarm", because of the fact that stretching the arm is the essential part ... the term is developing. And when you look clearly the "sensor"- part of the expression is useless as well...
Happy New year... Hope to see you more often this year
Thank you for all your team keeps doing
Thank you so much Robert!
Thank you for making this!!
Thank you for this content!
My take on the attempt to simulate heavier belayers: I claim that increasing the friction doesn’t accurately represent a heavier belayer.
As I take it, all of these methods work to reduce forces on the climber by reducing the difference in velocity between the climber and the active part of the rope at the belayer side. Thus, even with a heavier belayer but the same amount of friction, granted that they use proper technique, will be able to generate a soft catch.
When introducing friction into the system, you are increasing the difference in velocity between the climber (who will be falling just the same) and the active part of the rope on the belayer side (which will move slower due to the higher friction). Thus:
1. The belayer will have less of a stimulus to initiate their soft catch method due to the lesser forces acting on their side of the rope
2. Even if the belayer applies their soft catch technique, it will be less effective.
This makes the force acting on the climber to be more dependent on the rope’s stretch and its spring and damping constants, as now the stretching of the rope is what’s taking the majority of the forces in the fall.
I would love to see a follow up where in order to simulate a heavier belayer you use a weight vest (or an actual heavier belayer), and also one where you compare different ropes on the high friction system (different diameters, where thinner ropes would have less friction and also stretch more).
Cheers and keep up the amazing work! 🎉
Incredible work!! Just spread it to my climbing groups
Much appreciated!
The problem though always is, that any stepping forward or jumping technique is difficult to perform in a unprepared moment. it´s easy as long you know there will be a fall right now.
in my (pretty extended) belayers experience, a sudden fall can´t be belayed any perfect, because your body isn´t really prepared. And that´s how a lot of climbers belay.
in a perfect world testing scenario several methods do work of course pretty similar.
in real world climbing, people aren´t ready to catch a fall, and every step or jump technique then just didn´t work nearly as well. As timing is so critical.
Agree - which means that the tube slide is best, assuming you know what you are doing.
honestly i think his passive catch would have been much softer if he had more slack
@@MartinManscher "knowing" should include a lot of practice, so that belaying becomes a real reflex, where the belayer watches the climber or just feel the rope, when climber is out of sight, and make a good catch depending on situation.
there is not always a good landing zone.
so when needed, a hard catch can become a necessity, and there is no time to think about what to do.
so getting all that together in real world belaying, is kind of an art, only very few people are good at.
And every route, rope, climber is different too.
in the end most people nowadays just use a grigri, and are becoming pretty unaware while belaying, because the grigri will prevent a ground fall. The blood marks in the walls prove you can hurt yourself on impact too.
so i really appreciate hard&easy´s videos on that topic, hoping people become aware of how important a good belay really is.
when stranger belay me, i always climb with 90% not risking to fall.
@@dickersnoodle1025 more slack is always extending the falls lengt too
i agree on that it can become a little softer, especially when a route has a lot of friction (rope drag).
then the rope between belayer and last quickdraw streches less, making the impact for the climber harder.
(effective fall factor is increasing)
on a open overhanging terrain, giving a bunch of slack then makes the fall more convenient of course, as effective fall factor decreases again.
more rope can absorb energy, than short roped.
But reducing friction, with extended draws, and giving a decent belay with any method i would always prefer over just giving slack.
As not always is enough space to do so.
and hitting a ledge is no fun.
So you will likely see me using alpine draws way more often than the regular craq climbers.
rope drag just makes good belaying way too difficult.
in a test you can try 5 times, in real life you have to nail it instantly.
@@marcushausch thank you for the info, i always belay with a bit of slack after 3rd or 4th quickdraw because all my climbers are 50lb+ heavier than me (im 115) and this helps me not get launched so abruptly or at least be prepared for the fall. This hasnt been an issue leading on 30ft walls for me. so i guess i wouldn't say its passive belaying exactly but in the video his catch would have been much softer with a slight bow rather than a factor 2 fall onto toprope basically
Thank you Ben et al. 😊
I love this so much! Thank you for creating this content 🥹🦾💚
the jumping method was always my favorite, I had to practice a lot with a friend to get the timing right.
for the stepping I like to do it on the side so I don't get dragged against the wall
Outstanding video!
Awesome study!
The technique for the heavy belayers with the extra rope in the hand has a better variation which I'm using since years. You extend your arm to the side, so your hand is at the level of grigri at full extension. There rope should be tight between your hand and grigri and then going up. You opose the fall with your arm and then jump up. It works incredibly well. Test it out.
Thanks for the video its really informative.
Thank you !
Very informative......Thank You.
Thanks Ben. Depending on the situation I choose the belaying method. Most of the time I use the running up the wall method (wich works best, standing a little less then 1 meter away from the wall and for chathing a fall I run into and up the wall), a way lighter climber with „sensorhanddynamik“ (which helps with timing too 😊) and trad with a tube or HMS (Munter hitch belay)
Well done :) i enjoy it a lot, keep going
Can vouch about the “sketchy” catch method when your belayer is significantly heavier… (50kg) I also use that same technique when belaying for top rope(and lead), when my climber is projecting a route, most of the time my top hand is enough to slowly stop the climber before the belay tool comes into play.
Great video. Thanks! One possibility I missed is 'hard catch with friction', possibly also 'lots of slack with friction'.
Thanx, a very useful episode. The last method you mentioned is the socalled "Sensor-hand-methode". I use this method continously, it results in very soft but slighty longer falls,even if the climber is equally heavy. And to bending the knees in a jump, it is in my(and my trainers)opinion much more effektive if you stand in a stepposition with your butt stretched out, the front leg straight and the back leg bend.
Have a nice time
You are awesome man. Judos to you and your buddies
Amazing job, as usual!
Oh thank you!
Great content
I'm gonna know everything about climbing at some point, but have no expirience.
Videos with analysis and a good bunch of data is just nice to see.
Thanks for your sharing
Incredible study, so fascinating. But I keep getting distracted by the stunning outdoor climbing you have access to
i came to practicing stepping forward for two reasons:
a) it's easier to time - as soon as you see climber falling, you simply start moving lightly roward the wall, the rope will do the rest (pull you to and up the wall).
b) it's harder to screw up, like when you jump too early and give your climber even harsher than passive catch.
c) it's easier to teach plenty of other people who don't do soft catch at all - just tell them to move closer as they see you fall
I agree with you, the timing for stepping forward is the easiest to get it right. I just don't prefer this method because the belayer has to have space to walk around, and some routes the base is too bad to walk around. Waiting with bend knees for me is the most versatile method. I'm a light belayer so I don't really need to jump too much, I just bend my knees and wait for the fall and stand up with the impact.
Whenever I get bad catches I investigate why. Most of the time it was the walking method. And worst about it: these belayers thought they do a great job.
So u want belayers not under the first draw is what I’m reading here
The BEND KNEE method also works when NOT SEEING the climber for me, because I instinctively/automatically go for a jump when a sudden drag on the rope occurs. I guess this should be the case for most climbers.
Excellent!
Thanks!
U r great! Many thanx!
I love these videos of you, this gives a good explanation of what I see happening practically.
I weigh 20kg's (±83kg's) more then my mate (±62kg's) and when I can, i kinda combine jumping with bend knees I guess and stepping forward. I am usually standing a couple meters from the wall and I run forward and jump up resulting in a big jump forward. he tells me that the catches are super soft
It's wild that there's no backup knot on the tube slide catches.
Running out of compliments that are high enough to pay you, Ben. So rather, I'll just encourage others who appreciate how exceptional these videos are to start supporting you on Patreon as I do.
Awesome presentation. I would point out that combining deflecting the lead rope with the non-breaking hand, sitting into and standing out of the loading, as well as controlling the friction or slip of a tube were all learned with abseiling once upon a time. You would work up to taking large jumps while abseiling with the belay device on a similar rope. Best to have a fireman's belay at least. It is not without risk.
Oh that's such a great idea!
With my son (45kg), I (70kg) take slack (up to 1 to 2 meters of slack, situation dependant) in the lead hand and even let it slide through my hand. I wear gloves + tube.
Also I move constantly, forward or backward to adjust the needed slack.
Doing this in a proper manner, you can let your climber land almost anywhere you want, if there's a legde or a corner etc...
I really appreciate how detailed your videos are! I was wondering if you could investigate the case of a heavy climber and light belayer (+30% weight difference). We currently use the Edelrid Ohm, but it is difficult to give soft catches and I am wondering what alternatives there are. Thanks!
Very nice work very useful, I wondering if you ll do a masterclass on how to clean up the route at the end of a climbing session 😊
Thanks, and yes will Do ;)
thanks you 🙏
I don't think anything in here was too surprising, I think the biggest issues with running forward were mentioned, it's hard to have control, I often see people who intend to do it who are heavier just end up not doing anything and therefore give a hard catch. Also there are certainly situations where you can't move back, belaying on a ledge, etc. But it's pretty rare to not be able to jump.
I'm glad you mentioned the squatting though. I'm often the heavier belayer, and I recently-ish learned the idea of squatting or belaying on one knee to give a softer catch and they both work well. So once the climber is high enough for a soft catch I'll often get down on a knee.
Another downside for the stepping forward method is that the climber could land on the rope if the climber is low on the route and risks rope burn (unfortunately speaking from experience).
Yeah, a pink scar mark on my leg is a good reminder of that as well 😅
I would love to see more information on how an Ohm impacts this data
It's worth noting that the tube slide is what is recommended by the IFSC and used by all belayers at world cups. Also, any technique used with a grigri can be performed with a tube slide by simply locking the tube and running/stepping etc. It seemed clear from the video (at least to me) that the experienced tube slide belayer could give significantly softer falls.
I suppose that the reason they use the tube sliding method is that once the climber falls, it's over, they don't continue projecting like most regular climbers + guaranteed (?) soft catch with proper technique.
the experience tube slide belayer should use gloves by the way, because falls aren´t always so cute and tiny like those testfalls.
after falling (accelerating) over some distance, the rope in the belayers hand start from 0 to run with that same speed as the climbers fall in zero time.
that´s the point where tube belaying can become dangerous. a belayer unaware of how fast the rope can be, will burn his hand and perhaps let go.
you won´t believe how often people ask me, why i belay with gloves (1 to be precise) when belaying with tube.
for the same reason ifsc belayers wear gloves.
belaying without gloves is possible tohugh too.
but it´s very dependent on weight, friction, device, and rope diameter condition.
a new skinny rope therfore can become very dangerous when a noob is belaying with a tube without having enough experience to know what can happen.
mostly nothing happens, because falls mostly are tiny and still pretty controllable.
what makes the belayer think it will always be like that, and that can become an error pretty fast.
just wanted to add that to your, of course correct, statement.
want see me belaying ?
ua-cam.com/video/qeUXC0KzwFc/v-deo.html
Danke!
Bite and danke!
I guess the take home message is that no device makes you a good belayer but the tecnique aswell as your versatility.
Therefore Climb-Fall-Belay-Repeat.
Whats a shortcoming of the laboratorylike situation is the perfectly timed fall.
I wonder if all of us stand with deeply bent knees, transfixed on the climber for the 25minute onsight go of our partne ready to jump like a frog.
For all others i guess its best to use the metod we can perform moderately well in any situation.
Thanx for all the work and graphix.
another very impressive video from hard is easy. thank you.
some additonal thoughts of mine.
research in climbing is way older than youtube. And beside all those (fantastic) measuring, the most important factors in belaying are the human factor.
in a test scenario, everyone is aware of what will happen soon. The leverl of awareness is way higher than on a normal day climbing.
people are talking, there are interesting things to watch beside the climber.
so, of course, every method work pretty good, as long as you:
- are aware !
- have experience and practice in what you need to do now.
- know the possible errors
as in every test scenario people will be more aware than usual, the german alpine club made a experiment on how good belayers can handle "sudden" falls, as good as possible.
and this test way very interesting too. even when the average climber knew, that soon a fall would happen, a lot of them did not cope with the belay to well.
and furthermore, asking the belayers how they can belay, a lot of them thought, they are pretty good belayers already.
so there is a misconception from what a belayer think he can do, to what he will be able to do in a sudden fall scenario. even it was not really sudden, as everyone knew what would come soon.
And that´s alsowhat you experienced in your testing. not every belayer can belay best on spot. some needs some trying to get a good result. And that while exactly knowing what would happen.
you did handle that topic in other videos for sure, i just missed that statement here. it´s way to important not to be mentioned over and over.
good belaying needs awareness all the time, and if someone thinks he is good at belaying he is likely wrong !
belaying (good) needs a lot of training and you have at least, to have dealt with a lot of SUDDEN not expected falls, before you even come close to be an experienced belayer.
so thank you hard and easy for investigating that topic in an entertaining format, that the younger generation will more likely watch, than reading this dusty papers (already existing btw).
can´t find the research in english, sorry, but for the german speaking watchers, here´s the link
bergsteigerbund.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Panorama-4-2016-Sicherheitsforschung-Kletterhallenstudie-2015.pdf
( using google you can translate it into english, i will not host the translated doc myself due to copyright reasons )
Bedankt
Thank you so much!
This has been a great series to follow!!! As a multi-pitch trad climber I would be curious to see how the methods and devices fair when used in a multi-pitch trad anchor. Typically the belayer has an opposition piece of gear below them preventing the belayer from moving up past the gear anchor. The concern here is for a soft catch and a reduced load on the gear holding the climber. Would love to see any material on this
The tube slide method would obviously be the best as the motion required by other two methods is limited and therefore will give even harder catches than in these tests. Also the movement required in those methods will transfer loading to the anchor. If you watch the outdoor section of this video again you will see the experienced tube slide belayer is able to stand in one spot (so no load on gear anchor) and give a soft catch.
on petzl website there are measuring data, whats happening at the anchors. grigri vs. tube
The opposite piece of gear is on the anchor itself in typical situations, not on the belayer. The belayer could also choose to extend their attachment to the anchor and hang a few meters below it so they could fly up quite a distance (if belaying from the harness)
It's crazy that we get all this for free. Thanks!!
Thanks for making this video! Much food for thought. I want all my climbing partners to watch this series!
As a light belayer now I'm curious about more optimal catches and am going to try practicing and experimenting with better jumping technique. Although you referenced anecdotal evidence that sometimes light belayers give hard catches, I'd be very interested to see more graphs and better understand the physics of this.
Finally, if you're looking for more topics along these lines, I've been trying to figure out how to give a softer catch if my climber is using the Ohm. Similar to your rope zigzag, it makes it a challenge.
Yea ohm, zigzaging and other similar devices are on my in progress atm ;)
17:49 this test shows how important increasing the time of deceleration softens the catch. The force of the fall was initiated on the belayer from the bottom of their squat all the way till they stopped going up. It’s like slamming on the brakes in the car vs easing onto the breaks, even if you are going 2 mph.
I would love a comparison when catching low falls. From the first, second and third bolt. When there is an actual risk of decking/hitting your belayer.
04:35 thank you for doing all the tests that way and being nice to us, nit-picking geeks :D
Your videos inspired me in thinking about physics that are contained in climbing and these kind of stuff, it's a really interesting topic to see done and thought of.
It would be interesting to study what happens on a multipich: load on the last protection, on the anchor: in particular for trad and how to make a soft catch if tied to the anchor with a clove hitch knot or longe, in the midle of the ascent far from the ground.
I think it's more complicated than just jumping or running.. so much is about timing, distance run.. runner contacting the wall, amount of jump, weight of belayer and climber, friction of runner, position of climber relative to last bolt position of last bolt relative to the wall when impacted.
Testing using an ohm would be really interesting as a more consistent energy absorber.
thx for acknowledging me in the video, but actually there are more geeks in climbing, compared to other sports 😬
It's worth remembering that too much slack and standing far away from the wall can result in ground falls even if the climber is high on the wall. A experienced friend nearly dropped a climber doing just this... I hope he learned some belaying lessons here.
The most important aspect of belaying is to prevent them from hitting the ground remember!
Belaying on the first couple of runners it is going to be a harder catch but it's better than a hard pizza impression.
Would be interesting to see a physics simulation of these. Quite a bit of complexity paxked in here.
Thank you for all the work. Could you use the tube slide with a Revo?
Have not tried but my gut feeling said on small falls yes, on big once it will probably lock since the rope will be running already very fast
Spotted an Ohm in the background of some of the footage. Would love to see some tests done with it including how to give a soft catch with it (which I heard is possible but nobody has been able to explain to me how). Absolutely loving this series and agree that you should consider publishing it or collaborating with researchers, maybe groups interested in sports biomechanics.
I am into exploring that issue for some years now. esepcially the differences from OHM to ZORRO (aka BAUER), sadly lockdown made my friends unavailable for a long time and some moved away too. long story short, what i noticed when testing the OHM, the v groove grabs the rope, the OHM is flipping upwards and then pinches the rope pretty hard, depending on position of belayer. The ammount of friction added by the OHM is high, and it kicks in after a drop of some distance pretty suddenly. This jerk you just can´t handle as a belayer, it´s happening above you no matter what you do on the ground. But i sadly found no really heavy person for further testing.
So to this point i just can say, it´s not possible to give a soft belay with OHM when a normal climber falls. But then you won`t need a OHM anyway.
The BAUER (ZORRO evolution) should (depending on developer) be more sensitiv in the amount of friction it produces. But here i just had on testing session before my buddy moved away.
But exploring the physics of belaying heavy climbers, with OHM / BAUER / (and there is a new design out meanwhile too) would be a fantastic topic for hard is easy too.
My investigations got stuck, lacking people willing to do "science" and having the weight for those testing.
( testing started in spring 2020 right into lockdown and then never got stuck bauer.zorro.h773.de/ )
Yeap ohm and other devices are in the testing for a while... Don't want to give half explored conclusions :)
Nit-picky physicist here, just to say I'd love to see a study like these been replicated with a significant amount of data ✨
Also, as a 105 kg climber and belayer... you're not a very heavy belayer at all 😅
Love your videos, love your graphics ♥
Scientific studies targeting climbing are perfect for getting feedback from the targeted audience (i.e. the climbers) because a lot of climbers work/research in natural sciences, mathematics and engineering. In my mountaineering group about half the members are from this field. At least here in Switzerland.
Ill probably get yelled at for this, but a majority of the climbers around me are just jobless bums. The ones who work are mostly construction guys- roofers, framers. I still climb with my first boss, he took me out to devils tower for a "team building day" my last year working with him, lol.
Im sure the culture is different elsewhere in the country, but here on the USAs east coast, thats how things are.
It is the same in my climbing group in Spain, half of us are engineers or scientists , I guess it is normal since this types of jobs give us enough time to go to the climbing gym
@@jordi95 I envy you, man. We have wonderful features here in the US but Chulilla is one of my dream destinations, and not just for the climbing.
@@scumbaag I've never been there though, it is at least a 5h drive from where I live, I'm lucky enough to be near nice places like Margalef or Rodellar though
Thanks a lot for your videos!
What would be good method for a soft cath in a multipitch route if the belayer is just hanging from the belay station? In other words no chance to step over something.
Hey there, great video as always! I would be so happy if you made a video using the Edelrid Ohm - super light belayer with heavy climber.. is there a method for a soft catch?
Standing closer to the wall will give a softer catch with the ohm, but yea that video is in the making
very much looking forward to this!! thank you@@HardIsEasy
Great video! Was the first outdoor test made in la mojarra climbing park in Colombia??
And also I usually combine the stepping forward and tube slide method : I have my brake hand as far as a can on the break side rope and as I step forward I bring my hand closer to the device without actually letting the rope slide. Of course it depends on the type of the fall, where I want the climber to end up (for example if there's a sketchy ledge or something) and how much space i have to step forward. If I don't have a lot of space I would let the rope slide a little bit as I step forward what I can.
Haha yea it was ;)