Volleyball Coach Reacts to NCAA Double Contact Rule Change
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- Опубліковано 14 бер 2024
- I'm a Volleyball Coach and Player who provides analysis and my perspective on the new NCAA Women's Volleyball rule change to allow doubles on the second contact (see full article here www.ncaa.org/news/2024/2/20/m...)
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I believe another youtuber discribed it as "It lowers the entry point to the sport, without raising the ceiling". I play in a amateur neigborhood club and since many are begginnets we were forced to play 6-0 to avoid confuision. I am not good at setting, i am still training that skill and i remember the moment i got to position 3 and got called doubles 3 times in a row. It's not a pleasent feeling and it and it made me even more anxious. This rule change doesn't affect where i play yet but i feel like it would help a lot of people getting into the sport
That's a very nice way to put it!
I play in a lot of amateur leagues and we just don't call doubles. I can confirm that as I've gotten better at setting I double less, but a lot of people just don't really learn to set properly. But that's probably because they don't really care...
Imagine in in football that refs penalize quaterbacks for throwing the football without a perfect spin. That's basically what the rule is. The penalty for a non-perfect spin is exactly that; It's not perfect and it'll be harder for the receiver to catch. In the exact same vein that a less-than-perfect set in volleyball (AKA a doubled set) is already a penalty in and of itself because the ball will be harder for the attackers to spike. The refs don't need to be involved, at all, in that scenario and it's baffling that this type of rule even exists. This is a great change and I hope it's applied to every volleyball league.
Very well said. There was a quote I read that was something along the lines of "Having to clean up your setter's doubled set is a penalty in and of itself".
Like the rule. What grinds my gears right now are those stupid power dumps or whatever you want to call them. Throwing the ball should be punished more strictly then occasionally double-touching.
A rule change I remember back in the day (in the 80s if I recall... I'm dating myself with this 😁) was when you used to be able to block a serve, or even spike off a serve if it doesn't have a lot of speed. I recall some hard jump serves that were close to the net that would nowadays be a great serve, but back then could be easily kill blocked, negating the skill it took to serve like that. That would have impeded the advancement of serves as an offensive weapon over the past 30-some years. I think of how different the game would be now if that rule stayed!
I guess this goes to show that rule changes are always a part of sports. They evolve as things like strategies, overall skill levels, equipment, or even typical human physique in the sport evolves. Many people don't even remember many of the past changes you mentioned. While the double contact rule has resulted in some people grumbling about it now, after a while it just becomes part of the game.
I love the comment about the referee's ego > the game being played. The best referee advise I ever got was "If both teams finish the game and can't remember who the referee was, you did your job well."
LOVE the Asian old man filter! 56 yo coach and playa whose wife still vividly remembers all the times I was late picking her up from the train after work because of side out beach scoring...I'd have one less strike against me if we had rally scoring then. I hate hate hate whiny players and coaches and if this rule change just eliminates the number of times I hear the whines from a team just feeling entitled to a point because they think the other team isn't the same level because of a iffy double that wasn't called, the sport would be better for me.
For me this change in the rule helps me, I have played basketball for about 10 years and volleyball I've barely been playing one and I am a setter and my main problem when setting was to remove the spin on the ball because no one taught me as such and I learned by adapting the technique of basketball shooting, but left the wrist that made the ball spin when setting, I have been correcting but still it still happens when you have to set very far and now that this error is no longer penalized I benefit, obviously if the rule is also modified where I play
I'm all for this rule change. I find that the double contact rule is a curious case in sports, as it punished bad technique. Doubles are bad form, they don't give you an advantage, so, with this rule change, doubles are now their own punishment. If you double on a set, you are going to have bad and inconsistent sets, nad are probably going to lose the point. And, if your hitters manage to score from a bad set, props to them.
Thanks for sharing your opinion! Agreed, there's actually a disadvantage when doubles are really bad.
@@ElevateYourselfOfficial I think it's also interesting that they still don't allow doubles if the ball crosses the net, as, just like it's hard for an attacker to hit a doubled set, because it can be unpredictable, as it's undercontrolled, the defense might have trouble saving it for the same reasons, so it could be an advantage.
So they are keeping it consistent and only allowing doubles when it's already disadvantageous to the team doubling
@@ElevateYourselfOfficial Doubles do give you an advantage. Do you remember the time you switch to underhand setting because you are not sure about overhand setting without double contact? With the new rule, when the pass is bad, even bad setters can set with overhand， instead of switching to underhand.
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I agree with almost everything you said. As someone who coached on an NCAA Final Four men's team to 14-year-old club girls and who reffed at the whole spectrum of those levels, I like the rule change. I think most people who hate it, have never blown a whistle. They have never tried to "set" a ball-handling level for an HS JV match (sometimes an impossibility). They have never had parents in their ears yelling "double" when they have no idea what they're talking about. The referee has ONE purpose, to make sure no team has an unfair advantage. I'd be curious about your take of how lenient NCAA men's officials are on setters bringing a tight, or actually over the net, ball back or who never whistle a double on a third ball taken over with hands. Some this week in Long Beach have been brutal.
I like the rule change because if you watch professional volleyball they double a lot more and barely get called. There is no competitive advantage to doubling a set so why stop the game for a double?
They actually don’t double. They just have insanely fast hands with an even release, which this is actually about. Calling double because of spin is wrong, only because of a faulty release is correct. Also a reason why the rule change makes sense; as a ref, it’s hard to really see that.
It definitely changes how blockers train to defend out of system attacks, a bump set tempo is different from a hand set from a non setter out of system. Goodluck to blockers on readblocking. D1 might see alot of one on one attacks in OOS with non-setters having good handles
Do you remember the times when the serve couldn't touch the net?
Yes, I do remember. Do you remember, when touching a ball, with a body part under the hip was a fault?
I still the rule not allowing serve to touch the net. Should reserve like any other NET sports.
@@sjsupaOther sports with a net have 1 player receiving, volleyball has 6
@@LifelessVeemo I don't see what difference does the number of receivers makes. Either way, redo the service would take the luck out.
@sjsupa there is far less luck involved with the net in volleyball, as more of the court is covered and the net is much higher from the ground. At higher levels, it is often a disadvantage to serve off the net as the other team tends to get an easy pass. Of course there's still some luck involved, but that's true for all aspects of the game, should the point be replayed if a free ball clips the tape when coming over and drops to the ground?
Was always jealous of liberos when that position came along. As an old school DS, we never got to play all that much unless we were scoring and were limited by the amount of subs. As for the double touch rule, I'm fine with the no call. It won't take away from a skilled setter, but it will possibly create opportunities to extend rallies.
I suspect the smart setters will use the greater leeway to "guide" the set. Same as smart coaches are using challenges as extra time outs. As for broadcast friendly game lengths, how about reducing points per game to 21?
If it's about doubles that where you finish the set by contacting the ball with one hand a fraction of a second longer, causing a bit of spin, sure, that's makes total sense.
The setter's possition has the steepest learning curve for new players, in my opinion, for that reason. Plus, even with this change, you still would need to perfect your technique to become more accurate and consistent, so is not like it would make high/competitive level less skillful.
But if they start ignoring really bad doubles, where you start contacting the ball with one hand and finish only contacting with the other, almost like a hot potato game, that could lead to some people abusing the new rule.
What would stop them from pretending to do a one hand set in one direction, then switch hands mid set to change direction to trick blockers?
Then it stops being about playing the ball by "single, non consecutive" contact. It's good they ease off a bit, but hopefully they will keep calling really obvious bad sets as doubles.
I'm sure the FIVB changed the rules in 2001 to make games a predictable length for TV. It was lots of fun playing doubles single games that took over an hour, though!
Love to hear your opinions on this coach! I think that the hate for the rule change is really just based in people not liking change. But you're right that its good for new players and non-players getting into or watching the game. Plus, as many have said, the punishment for the double is in the fact the set is bad, like a bad throw of a football, rather than the penalty itself. Plus, I think allowing setters to be more aggressive can help make rally's more exciting. It always sucks when you're in the middle of a great rally, and then somebody doubles. Even if you're on the other team, its just really unsatisfying.
100% with you, Donny!
You talk a lot about making the game TV friendly so I would ask you this - what percentage of volleyball is played on TV or streamed to consumers? I don't feel like it would be that high and as such I'm against making rules so that the game is more TV friendly. Having said that I'm fine with the rule change. It is interesting that the recent trend in international, professional volleyball is to basically remove officials from the game. No more linespeople (just challenge any calls on lines or touches) and I've heard that there is talking about eliminating the R2 (down official). With the FIVB also in the process of eliminating the double contact rule what is the role of the R1 official. No touches, no lines, no ball handling, etcetera. The scorekeeper could handle the substitution/timeout process, and a reply official (or AI) could handle all game play situations (rotations, net touches, back row attacker violations), out of bounds (off antennae specifically), and whether or not the ball hit the ground. the sole role of the R1 will soon be stripped down to indicating which side is serving next (but a scorekeeper could handle that). So all leagues with the $$ to implement it would have no game officials other than a scorekeeper or AI techie, while the other 95% of volleyball would be officiated by humans! Is that good or bad? Or irrelevant! Also, NCAA coaches don't really get paid to be volleyball innovators. They get paid to win matches so taking all of our cues from that group of coaches may not be the route either. Anyone remember 30 point games?
Rotation and strategies to deal with it is by far the most complicated part for new comers. How about keep the back and front court positions, but no rotations except for the server.
Coach and referee from Switzerland here, i love this rule change.
As a ref: i hate judgement calls, it's so subjective and hard to call consistently especially once athletes get tired or "cold" substitutes play.
There is literally no advantage for double contacts, a bad set is less accurate and harder to hit anyway so why penalize it?
The only advantage are unpredictable sets that go over the net which still will be called.
Also it make take out some frustration and discussions off the game when coaches or teams don't agree with a refs bar for calling doubles, which is an additional benefit.
As a coach this changes little for me, i will still work hard on my setters techniques, it will however allow me to bring in my subs earlier as well as promote my talented setters earlier which still might have inconsistent technique under pressure.
i hate judgement calls, then you should also hate the "over the net" rule then.
5:25 sounds like a message that applies to baseball.
What about a serve touching the net not being regarded as a fault? That was a pretty huge rule change...
And also the rule change that made it possible to recieve the serve with the hands (like a set)...
I'm pretty sure both of those rule changes came into play after side-out scoring was scrapped. So you should have experienced those as well.
Does this rule change only apply to women or does it impact men's NCAA volleyball as well?
Have you ever played with Hmong people? Uses many of the old rules, side out scoring, no over set, serve receive must be two hands together so no set receives, no net touch on serve, and very strict double rules especially on sets. It’s a lot harder than the modern volleyball rules but you really develop good fundamentals
When they reviewed the 2022 games and said it would only change a small number of calls, that was bad methodology. There was a small number when players expected to get called. Let the shenanigans begin.
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I'm against it too coach
I can't see any problems with this rule change, which should mean it's probably a really positive change. The point that players with poor technique actually don't get an advantage with this change is an important one. I predict that a lot of people is gonna have a really hard time realizing this. They will fail to see that the fact that players with poor technique now won't get called for a double 10 times every set is an advantage.
I also totally agree that keeping the refs from blowing their whistles as much as possible is also gonna be a positive. Refs making any kind of call is always gonna be detracting from the actual game. So there should have to be a really good reason for any kind of rule that would make the ref make a call imo. And in this case there is pretty much no upside to enforcing a stricter rule. So it makes total sense to make it more relaxed.
4:13 Yesss, I have tried to explain a double call, but to someone who actually plays the game, not professionally and calls every rotating ball a double even from 100 feet away without seeing the actual touch of the hands on the ball. They'll never ever GET IT!! Yes super frustrating!!
Now, I differ on how to make the game more watchable. Rally point didn't do it, shorting the court didn't do it either, even in the age of the internet streaming. Volleyball players and fans are not your typical athlete and fan base. The FIVB and every other ruling local association blamed their lack of innovative marketing skills to bring new and keep fans attending games, on the game. And believed that changes like those will bring new people to the game, it did not. Volleyball with the sideout score and the humongous court, WAS watchable and gave even more opportunities to teams to come from behind or give some outstanding kicks in the bu**s. That without the massive media that everyone enjoys today.
Sorry for the Biblical like long comment and thanks for your knowledge and good vibes!
As a MB, I approve the change. Bring it into men's game as well!
I personally don't like it...I've been s setter for 15 years at high school, collegiate, and now adult leagues. How do you improve your setting? Work harder, get your body to the ball faster so you have a good foundation. There are still times where it happens, but not nearly as often if you're agile and get to the ball.
I get the "for" arguments, and I respect them. But referees call what they think they see, not what they actually see. Adjust accordingly.
I started playing when kicking the ball was not allowed.😅
No net faults on serves was also a good change!
I mean, the rules were already so loose that this was basically a yawn. On the other hand, the rule changes to the game have generally elbowed out skill players - who tended to be smaller - in favor of having large, less skilled players hitting and blocking. Maybe that's better, maybe that's not. I think that the rule changes have by and large made the game much less interesting to watch. Compare the 1989 Rhode Island Open to any AVP event today. Regarding the argument that fans are too dumb to figure rules out, American football has to be one of the most complex sports. People still watch.
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If people hate judgement calls so much, then please propose to get rid of the "over the net touch" rule. Even professional players argue about it in official games, more than doubles.
so lower the skills required to attract more players. I guess….but i aint gonna catch myself slacking making double sets though
The era of specialization of position play at such an early age comes with a price, and MB's and OOH's trying to handset a second ball seems to be where this rule is aimed at, as killing a rally because they cannot cleanly set a ball is a bit of a buzzkill. That being said, lowering skill requirements for any sports (anyone watched the egregious travelling in the NBA in the last few years?) will have a detrimental effect on the game. Will it be a huge impact? Probably not, but an impact nonetheless.
The problem was that refs didn't call it. IMO we will see even more "misdirection" setting by good setters, make blocking quicks harder and benefitting the offense. I don't see what will prevent setters from being able to provide good sets on even bad passes as they "deep dish' everything.. I don't like it because it dilutes the need for good passing, good setting, and playing out of system.
That is my point also. i don't mind the rule is relax in the lower level clubs or even youngsters. But not in the high level of playing.
Wait, but carrying is different from double contacting isn’t it?
I am totally for this rule change. Here's my view: Violations like stepping across the line when serving, feet across the net, net touch, etc, gives somewhat an advantage to the offended team. Having spin during a set not only does not give advantage to that team, but even put disadvantage to themselves. I can guarantee, 10/10 players would rather hit a ball without spin than a spinning one. There's just thousands of arguments about referees call on doubles throughout the years, because there's no specific standard for the referees to follow. This rule change definitely improves the excitement of the game, and reduce the pressure and frustration towards the referee and players.
Anyone that doesn’t have the skill will like the rule. Kinda similar like a change in basketball would be walking extra steps without dribbling… Skills are skills…
Absolutely a good change. Inconsistent doubles have been terrible for years. This makes it much easier for refs
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Well, this is youtube - so I like the rule change. Those guys on the other social media platforms clearly like to argue about referee calls or no-calls and like to stop the play. Instead of whining about double touches those weird "open hand - throwing the ball into the opponents field" dump plays should be banned. They even start to invade beachvolleyball nowadays. ..
Double calls have always been somewhat subjective and not always applied uniformly so I understand wanting to mostly eliminate them for flow of the match.
At College and higher levels the setters should be so skilled that doubles will be a rarity anyway.
Ref calls hopefully do not determine the outcome of a match, it should be player skill and team work that accomplish that.
I actually enjoy playing with qualified refs so all players, especially setters(who touch the ball more than any other player) have to develop good skills. If you keep getting called for doubles, work on your skills, bump set or get someone else to set, simple as that.
I am an older player so I started my journey with side out scoring,
No libero
The serve could not hit the tape but you got a second toss if the first one was bad and you had to serve from the service box.
Service receive was treated as any other contact so overhead service receive would likely be called as a double so forearm passing was much more common.
Over time the rules seem to be giving the defenders more leeway.
I was a setter in university and I always enjoyed trying to make it through a tournament without getting called for any mishandling of the ball. I guess they will still calls lifts? ;)
Oh and in old school volleyball the ball was always white and usually leather.
Sounds like a very good change. Continuation of play is what is most important, and as long as proper contact is actually your best strategy, allowing rescues of varying kinds can only be good. It also helps the lower bracket of players to stress less about this aspect.
As long as they don't increase calls on "carries" / "Lifts" / etc etc.
As a player coach trainer and ref, I agree that “let them play” is a great base to rule from. As long as it’s an “accident” and not just shit technique I’m fine with it.
My most influential rule change was that serves that touch the net is ok. Going to rally scoring was pretty big too, going to 25 points instead of 15.
Should we really care even if its bad technique? We don't penalize people for bad passing form..
@@octogintillion pretty soon, double contact would be intentional. A lot of bad pass that can only be set underhand before, will soon be set overhand with double contact.
It's a bad idea; relaxing a rule always leads to lowered standards introducing sloppiness. Now anybody can set, LOL, who are the clowns who came up with this!
Gonna see ugly and unintentional sets play on. Those will be my cringe moments.
It's a pretty interesting rule change. One consequence might be more teams playing the 6-2 rotation, as you don't need an exceptional setter anymore.
That is a very interesting perspective
Idk, i feel like the limitations of 6-2 still stand, you need 2 good setters that are both able to spike just as well as a opposite hitter to stay even while giving up the possibility of a surprise setter dump. Most professional teams already play a kind of 6-2 where the Opposite and Setter are subbed out for the backup setter and Opposite for three rotations where you don't lose neither spiking power nor the quality of the set. I am unsure how this small rule change can realistically change the viability of 6-2
@@Gonioneitor you don't need two good setters that can spike well, you'll need two oppos that can set remotely well.
You will always need a execelent setter, since the majority of the passes are not on point.
Great setting who sends the block into the woods and frees up hitters is invaluable.
I’m pretty sure they removed the new rule last night it is back to normal
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I dont believe this rule is a good thing, good players will exploit this into reading a pass impossible, I believe to stop ruining a game you just choose a benchmark of quality you accept and what you don't to make it fair for everyone and to force every player to give there best shot at a proper set.
My biggest issue is that I believe the rule change will completely change the way people set. Even though in their 2022 trial they may not have seen significant amounts of calls being impacted, in the long run people will change how they set. While it is completely subjective whether this change will be positive or negative, I firmly believe it will make setting less standardized and overall less fun to watch
How do you believe people will set differently?
I really don't see how doubling will make a set better.. No one wants to hit a spinning ball all the time.
It's funny how over the years, the rules have changed to make volleyball more 'TV friendly'. There's no volleyball on TV folks. Not unless you pay for it.
The new rule is terrible for the game. And technically I could argue that a set that spins forward can fly more true than a floating clean set. Also that setting off balance with spin is an advantage. No more safe clean setting will stress the block and fast liberos or big middles who never could set can now. As a college coach now of over 20+ years I’m already changing my training to account for all this. You can’t change one of three major contacts to the game and not think it’s going to change the game.
"Terrible for the game". Do think calling doubles on newbies makes them like the sport and want to play more?
Blaming refs in Video. What a toxic coach.
Do you really believe that removing faults for double contact will bring more viewers to the sport? I don't think at all that it will influence that much. But for people who already follow the sport, the matches will become uglier for sure.
Coach, you definitely wrong about this. Look at the NBA and how trash it is now. You really want to go that route?
Care to explain why he's wrong or are you just going to waffle on about something completely unrelated and unknown to people who don't know what parts of the NBA you're even talking about?
Ok, going in my way-back machine rules from when I played. 1) you had to serve from only the back right 10 feet, not anywhere on the back line. 2) you could only play from the waist up. Feet and knees were not allowed, which was stupid. This was particularly bad when you made an incredible up, receiving a blast from a center hitter and the ref had to determine if the ball touched your knee between your elbows. 3j There was a transition period to rally scoring where they had both rally scoring AND a point cap. This meant you would have games where it was literally the last serve no matter what. Thankfully, this was short lived.
Like the double rule change! As a non-setter I got called way too often for this on good sets, which had some spin. Always felt refs have additional scrutiny when someone other than the setter gets the second hit.