I mean, what he's saying is true. DBS Goku is way more akin to how Toriyama wanted him and wrote him to be. He even said that TOEI ruined the character.
@@teeboz6237all do respect to Akira he made our childhoods but clearly based off the community in general most would say z or og dragon ball Goku overall was enjoyable for more reasons then super Goku. Like for example z Goku in the Goku black arc would have felt much more intense like the arc should have felt sure he had small moments but there was plenty times super Goku's antics and obviousness and childishness messes it up. Example: when Goku met Goku black for the first time instead of being excited for a fight (even Goku has lines he draws) he should have immediately been on guard and asking questions before the fight (it's literally himself, in a black and red suit with a Kai earring Goku would be smart enough to be skeptical and serious considering trunks panicking when he attacked him) super Goku was way too overly lighthearted and childish. Not saying Goku isn't lighthearted and childish but they turned that stupid meter up a million with him. When I genuinely enjoyed Goku in super was ultra instinct or battle of gods movie
also gt dub is ass 💀 has the same problems as the og DBZ dub, it tries too much to make Goku angry Superman and in general alters the characters', well, character, way too much for the worse, it's as if they're _trying_ to beat around the bush. Since we don't have GT Kai, the best "adaptation" is just the sub since it's a more direct translation
People just mad because we enjoy more stuff than they. "You are a real dragon ball fan only if you like half of the series" is what they think. Great video brother, keep up the good work.
I agree with most of what's said in the video but you left out stuff like him not being Able to figure out monaka is weak and that beerus is fighting him in a monaka suit even when Vegeta and Piccolo make it even more obvious, and him getting scratched by a bullet before the top when even as a kid he only ever got a bump on the head or bruise from them never have they ever scratched him or worse. Stuff like that where he's just being dumb for super to write him as childlike stupid. He was raised in the mountains but in z did he ever get as bad a read on someone to not figure out someone with such a familiar and stand out ish energy ad beerus or get hurt by stuff as silly as you pointed out the ray gun or a common bullet? I think that's more of what's being said like dude acts like the world's biggest idiot sometimes in Super they legit write him to say he's never had a kiss and doesn't know what it is when he has 2 kids and has had a wife for soooo long.
Goku Black already knows the instant transmission, you literally see him try to use it in his first apperance. I'm not saying DBS Goku is dumb, but what you said isn't true.
@@acegameravery9488Kais can already use Instant Transmission tho. It’s probably a natural ability they have like how the Angels have a natural form of Ultra Instinct.
The ToP thing has always annoyed me and left me baffled as to how the rumour Goku suggested the ToP initially/was his fault even came to be. Champa challenges Beerus to a tournament. Goku and Vegeta just happen to be there and agree to participate. Zeno sees this tournament and HE says he wants to throw his own. Again, Goku just happens to be present and agrees to participate. Goku just reminds him of it which yes, ends up saving the multiverse as a whole. The fact that U7 was in jeopardy in the first place was because Beerus was rubbish at his job. Add on top of that the U6 tournament was Beerus and Champas doing, Beerus literally had nobody to blame but himself.
I will defend super Goku on that, it wasn’t his fault for putting any of the universe in danger. If anything the tournament saved all of them since the zenos we’re going to erase the ones with a low mortal count anyway
Yeah the tournament was the only reason any of them had a chance which if I remember right an angel reminded one of the gods of destruction of that and they just ignored them, and I agree with this take that goku has so more interesting moves he uses showcasing his fight smarts more and having more peace and superiority complex time, but he really left out shit like goku getting hurt by a bullet basically worse than he ever did as a child, and when he legit couldn't figure out Beerus was in a monaka suit fighting him.
Goku: Vegeta, put your shitty pride aside and fuse with me to avenge our friends and family!!! Goku immediately after: Nah, it's important to my pride that I fight Majin Buu alone... Fuck fusion!
@@superkamijacobAlso people forget that z Goku does just as many stupid things as super Goku if not more. 1. Not heeding the Supreme Kai's warning about buu. 2. Crushing the potara earrings when fighting buu. 3. Forgetting to take his heart medicine. 4. Not going super saiyan three against Majin Vegeta. 5. Not defeating fat buu when he had the chance. 6. Leaving his family for 10 yrs to train uub when he has instant transmission. And many more.
@@Freegrace421the heart medicine one you are definitely wrong about and this is a painfully common misconception among the fanbase. Trunks instructs goku to take the meds when symptoms appear. Its a cure, not preventative. Goku FIGHTING with the virus is the stupid mistake. That being said, the rest is more or less accurate and i agree
“I miss when goku was creative with his skills” “I miss when the fights were hand to hand and not beams only” “I miss when goku was serious and not a child” - Mfs that enever watched Z or Super. Goku redirecting the Kamehameha and using it as a shield to protect himself. Rof’s movie had some amazing hand to hand and one episode i can think of right off the top of my head (pre TOP) was goku vs hit in episode 70 something. Goku in the hospital, and on his way to namek have to be some of the goofiest ive see him, and thats just from early Z. Its like some poeple just want goku to have one character trait 100% of the time instead of letting that trait shine when its really called for. Just so happens its called for in alot of Z.
The Tournament of Power is a perfect example for this. No light-hearted jokes from him (besides Ribrianne moments), no dumb decisions like in the Cell Saga, no overestimating or underestimating like in the Buu Saga, instead just sheer focus and concentration on protecting his universe against equals/stronger opponents. Hell, he outright states he wants to protect his friend first and foremost. He got scared when Master Rochi was falling behind, AND WAS READY TO PUMEL HIS ENEMY IN SSJ BLUE TO SAVE THE MAN. It's like using a nuke to blow up a damn cockroach. Super Goku is "dumber" only because he actually has opportunities to essentially be himself, just like you've said. And now that his allies are around his strength, he knows his friends and the Earth will be protected without him (callback to Buu Saga maybe????), and so, he can fuck around and find out whenever he wants.
Not only that, but Gohan is also stepping up once more to be a defender of earth. And he's made his father proud of him to say that he knows earth will be protected once he's gone. And that's great.
Ngl. I LOVE the "I am the hope of the universe" speech! I know its not how Goku is supossed to be but It gives me chills when I hear him say, "ALLY TO GOOD! NIGHMARE TO YOU!"
And that is fine! You can absolutely have your own opinion. I prefer Kai, but I'm not denying that a large part of that is because I grew up watching it
I really really got into it and watched it after both came out and dragon ball was in a dry state, and I can say after watching and consuming a lot of db content I do prefer kai
Holy shit somone finally says it, I'm tired of the whole "Super Goku isn't Goku bs" people will see like an edited clip of Goku being super serious in GT and go "man i miss THIS Goku" like god shut up
@superkamijacob eh that was never a big issue for me even if it didn't end up changing all to much overall, I think the biggest crime of GT is how emotional and actually good the Super 17 arc could've been, all those moments with 18 and 17 were actually really good and it's also Insane to me how those same GT fanboys lump the greatness of not only Baby but his whole arc as equal with the the rest of GT now if I did have one genuine complaint with Super as well just to play devils advocate "more of a personal thing" I really wish they just adapted the best bits of the manga and anime "mainly the manga" into a sorta DBS revamp akin to the likes of FMA Brotherhood
@ you meant he saved them you didn’t mention he didn’t know the consequences of losing goku is selfish but is not narcissistic he still cares to a certain degree and by the Moro arc he does gain a sense of justice
Well I focused on the results, not just the understanding. If I did a full in depth analysis, I would talk about how the furry basically gaslit everyone into believing Goku was a villain when in reality, his suggestion saved the universes. Additionally, he just wanted a tournament, but that much was already obvious so i didn't think it was worth mentioning
The reason why Goku acts the way he does in Super is because times are just now different now😭 Z had much higher stakes and everybody was constantly in danger and Goku was even dead the majority of the series due to such danger. Super only had one true villian which was Black and that was only because Goku literally chose to fight and stop him since it was a different timeline. Goku is obviously going to be a lot happier and goofier because he actually CAN now.
@@Top_E_Official In the first instance, time got reversed by Whis, further proving our point that the literal deities on Goku's side give him a sense of security. In the second instance, Goku was fully serious for the full duration of the tournament. That's the point, right? RIGHT?
They called me a fool... they called me a bunch of stuff because *i know how to read my favorite series.* 1st: people never rewatched Z again aftee rewatching Super. Making alot of their takes based on what they remember. 2: Most of fans who say Z wa serious are ENG watchers. That shit changed the entire image of goku. Japanese Z goku = Super goku
Didn't Goku literally regret doing that as he realized pretty quickly that Gohan wasn't built for that ass beating. And didn't Goku literally have to help defeat Cell even though he's entire plan to have Gohan do it failed badly. The senzu bean was a character mistake made to hype up Cell and Gohans fight. It was a bad writing choice.
For the Buu saga, I genuinely put the blame on everyone who could have ended the saga earlier, especially since in Future Trunks’ timeline, he managed to kill Babbabi and Daurba before they unleashed Buu, so Buu saga could have been avoided if the Z fighters weren’t too busy messing around and being too damn cocky.
People will hate you for saying it, but yeah, goku is largely just as smart in super ad in Z and id say hes even smarter when it comes to combat. Also, the whole "goku forgot how to meditate" thing, couldve been a valid argument, had it not been a misinterpretation. It was that he was shocked that vegeta was meditating, he didnt even think vegeta knew what it is, so vegeta explained what it was but goku obvioiusly knows. In the super hero movie the staff likely just misinterpreted what the doalogue was supposed to be, but the manga fixed that. Similar scenario with goku not knowing what a kiss is. Bro has 2 kids, itd be wild of he didnt know what a kiss was. It was a joke about trunks bird feeding that was lost in translation so they made it so that goku didnt know what a kiss was. Dbzs dub made goku look greater than he was, while supers dub makes goku look like less than what he is.
The mental gymnastics DBSlop fans have to do to defend DBS 47IQ Goku 😂😂 Defend him forgetting the senzu beans on the toilet and the Mafuba seal in the Goku Black arc lol
I’ll give you the senzu, but the Mafuba was wholeheartedly Roshi’s fault because he in a manga page and in the anime in the Tournament of Power, showed that he could’ve given Goku a jar that already had the seal on it.
well he dont know what a kiss or intimate relations is... he is that pure. so chichi been graping all this time. its sad ok 😟😁 this is why he is allowed to ride nimbus. lol. glad the manga fixed his mediatation statements. that was part of his first training with a god in og db.
@@universalshadow I mean Goku also passed the universe 6 vs 7 per tournament exam. the test had college level questions on it and Goku solved one in particular most people can't solve. dudes not stupid in super, hes just relaxed.
One thing I disagree with you is that Goku is not a hero. He is not a super hero by any means but he often does things that goes against his own desires, making him a hero.
Heonot the traditional “save the world goody two shoes superman”, but since his debut he’s had a strong sense of right and wrong and does have a strong and pure desire to help people.
This is nice to hear and you have very good points! I also find it funny how you have this absolute BEEF with Great Ape Vegeta in dragon ball sparking zero.
completely ignore the fact that goku in super is not only demented (forgetting things he learned from his experience) but apparently also lacks even more brain cells than he did in Z. Not overhated, kind of deserved.
It is an honest shit take. This is the problem with all the sheep nowadays. They see a youtuber upload a video with a title about an opinion and instantly attribute intelligence to the youtuber without doing their own research. It is valid that many people jump on a bandwagon of an opinion with no foreknowledge or thought of their own. I'm arguing that in the case of not just Goku, but super as a whole, is an organic criticism that dragonball as a franchise has become nothing more than a souless cash grab. From multiple character assasinations, to contrived plots with zero to no resolution, to asspull transformations for the sole purpose of selling more toys and dlcs, laziness and no direction. You are making the argument that super goku is not only overhated, but actually better than Z goku. Especially the point that Super goku actually saved the universes because the plot decided to give him the W. Goku had NO knowledge whatsoever about Zeno's plan to test the universes. So in the end, it was Zeno and Android 17 who saved all of the universes with the selfless wish. Goku acted reckless to a multiversal degree because he was told by Beerus and even WHIS to NOT mess around with Zeno as Zeno is an unpredictable being who is not like anyone else. What did Goku do with this information? "But that's Zenny, he would never." As he proceeded to disregard the orders of the god of destruction and his master whis. Beerus saw goku so much so as a threat to existence that beerus was going to eliminate him there. That's when goku pulled the zeno switch trick on beerus and left to go remind zeno of the tournament. Z wasn't perfec by any means, but there's a reason why it is the most beloved of all the dragonball series' and its not just because of the action. And I don't care if you put a "pin of shame" on me because super goku is trash and way better than Z goku and I'll die on that hill. Make your arguments.
Damn, u really made this whole argument just for it to fall apart because of subjectivity and blue wolf propaganda. U can have ur own opinion about Goku, I don't really care. But to sit here and say that none of my videos is valid while addressing zero of my arguments is dishonest. Also bout the Goku universe thing? In case u missed it, Zeno was gonna erase all the universes, but Goku proposed the tournament of power which gave him the idea to get them another chance.
@superkamijacob super dishonest. Bad take, bud. You're gonna sit here and say goku proposed the idea of the top? It was Zeno who wanted that back at the end of the u6 tournament after seeing the champa tournament. Zeno was already set in giving the universes this opportunity. All goku did was remind zeno of the tournament, which was reckless because he did not care about beerus and whis' warning about zeno. I'm not accusing goku of being malicious or anything, but he was reckless in that regard. You made another point about Goku saying the reason they didn't go beat up gero before he made the androids was for 2 things, 1. They don't know where he is, bulma said maybe they could use the dragonball to find his base. 2. Goku said that he didn't believe in beating up someone if they haven't done anything wrong yet, which is in character for him and a moral position. Goku giving cell the senzu was because he was 100% about gohans potential and he wouldn't have done it if he wasn't 100%. The buu saga was goku simply trying to set up the next generation of heroes as he's not even supposed to be there on earth. You see it as a bad thing because youre only thinking short term. Goku intended this to be a more than long term more like permanent strategy to prepare his children for adversities without goku. Let's say goku did destroy majin buu as a ssj3, then what? Goten and trunks can't fuse, don't have what it takes to protect the earth because they haven't gone through adversity. Gohan will just cancel his training with the kais and go home as goku already beat buu. Gohan would have turned out the same way, if not worse than how he was in superhero where he says "why should I train, my dad and vegeta will handle it." Then freiza is resurrected and destroys them all. Even though in hindsight we know goku stays alive, his plan was for the next generation to be able to protect the earth as he wasn't planning on coming back until he had to near the end of the saga. Give him some credit at least for the intention he had for his actions in the buu saga
I heard of a theory saying that goku actually kinda went insane during his time in the afterlife explaining his odd behaviours in the buu arc and super. And the fact that he lost any sense time or general meaning to life and treats everything as if it won't have any impactful consequences.
15:54 wtf are you talking about that was “the only time he got to show this kind of love to his children”. He went fishing with Gohan in the cell saga, which he said he would do in the saiyan saga.
That's fair, but to be fair, it was a pretty small event so it's easy to forget about (and it was happening with the tension of the cell games in the air)
Thank you for this. The really terrible characterization of Goku in the original Z Dub rotted the brains of DB Fans, they all expect Goku to act like batman, rip all his opponents to shreds instantly, and talk like Z Broly all the time. Somethings I'd like to comment on - Goku letting his guard down was pretty justified in ROF, firstly he did do this with Frieza on Namek could actually sense the ki coming towards him while in ROF Goku was exhausted and got shot at by a laser beam (not ki) from someone who had barely any ki signal. He also had 0 reason to think someone like a Frieza solider could sneak up on him because he literally saw Frieza obliterate most of them by just transforming - Goku forgetting the seal is more forgetful than stupid - Goku "forgetting" meditation was actually a mistranslation that was fixed in the manga Good Video overall, its nice to see a DB Yter who doesn't spew misinformation that brainrots DB Fans
Especially when talking about manga Goku, he smiled only once in the goku black arc because he knew how serious the situation was. Z Goku would've AT THE VERY LEAST made some jokes here and there
bruh. Did you really need to bring up my 90s bills here. That shit still hurts me to this day, specially my brother I was like barely conscious for when the Bills were good in the 90s.
Z Goku was a young adult on a place where being effortlessly planetary was the biggest threat on the universe Super Goku is a man in his 40's who isn't suprised at galaxy busters and just tries to have fun even when he is aware of how much things are stacked against him
“GoKu ShOwEd A lOt MoRe InTeLgEnSe In DrAgOn BaLl SuPeR” what do you mean?! He only showed more battle intelligence and probably only in the anime and he’s actually intelligentsia is even lower than in Z
I completely agree that goku didn't have time to be goofy or stupid in Z so his dumbass moments in Z aren't too outlandish when you come off of Dragon Ball. DB Super Goku does get time to be goofy and stupid, but the issue is, in comparison to OG dragon ball goku is overly stupid way too much (not all the time, but too much)
I can somewhat agree with that. However, the tone of super as a whole is way different than Z so I believe it causes fans to cherry pick whatever they can to say that super goku is stupid
DBS was written and managed like shit, although yes some can be excused because regardless Toriyama did give some work. Not all of it can be hand waved
Goku has maybe 3 or 4 stupid moments in the manga of super (and 2 of them make alot of sense considering he doesnt have education past maybe first grade level from roshi.) I have only seen the ToP for the anime, but goku was smarter in the anime version of the ToP than he EVER was in Z, so idk where this "Goku was handled poorly in super" comes from, especially since goku was suppossed to be even dumber than he is, yet tactically goku is smarter than ever.
@@rednaxela5960 I think it mostly stems from the Goku Black Saga where Goku forgets important things like the Senzu Beans and the sealing tag for the Mafuba.
2:43 Are you deadass? His eyebrows are slanted to give off a regretful expression as opposed to the anime's stern look. The caption doesn't help me tell if you're joking or not
Hang on, I remember Bulma suggesting *using the Dragon Balls to figure out where Gero was.* I don't think she would've suggested that if she knew where he lived.
Cool video, but some really dumb points are made (This is a yap session) How can Super Goku be more accurate than the Goku Toriyama both wrote and drew when writing the original manga? Of course, the Z dub is really inaccurate and unfaithful to the characters, but even so, Super itself is also unfaithful to the characters. At least when considering the development they did go through in the original story. Something I could point on in Super, is Goku's choice to practically make the TOP a thing. While it ended up being a good decision, the Goku by the end of the Boo arc, and therefore the one whom enters Super would not make this choice given his knowledge. Goku learned over the course of his youth and adulthood about the importance of saving the earth and keeping it peaceful, it's a main narrative plot point for his struggles, especially during the Saiyan and Namek arc. You notice in the Cell and Buu arcs, Goku practically never lets an opponent away or get stronger for the reason of wanting to best them himself, it's always a motive that involves someone else. Goku had no idea his decision would end up saving the universes, and in no way would he want to make such a thing happen when it could mean the destruction of everything he loves. As much as he loves to fight, he'd already learned to mature and make decisions that were more important than his own instincts. I just can't see Goku being so oblivious and stupid even, making that decision, much like how he is in a lot of Super. The next problem with Super Goku is the one everyone always mentions, but it is valid. He's just stupid, in a lot of scenes. Which is not who Goku is, at least how he is characterized in the original manga of Dragon Ball. Goku was never stupid, he was naive and ignorant, that is it. In fact he is characterized by making a handful of good and even intelligent situations in scenes, or being the mature figure like when Majin Vegeta killed those innocents in the Budokai. The Super Saiyan 3 point was always dumb to me, because hello? Babadi needs energy, guess what generates and takes an amount of energy almost no one can produce at the time... The Super Saiyan 3 transformation, that would have filled Babadi's meter way quicker than just two SSJ2 fighters, no matter how quickly one thinks he'd beat Vegeta in that form. The OTHER Super Saiyan 3 point is more valid, but it isn't an actual writing flaw but a genuine mistake on Goku's end. He had good intent, but he was ignorant of how unready the kids really were to face Buu. In such a dire, unprepped situation he had to get them as strong as possible and hope for the best. Yeah, SSJ3 Goku could beat Buu. But that would be bad writing, why would you want him to end the arc there with no narrative satisfaction. Just he beat's Buu, doesn't learn anything with the help of Vegeta and Hercule. Gotenks and Gohan's power, along with Vegito don't exist. It just makes the arc really short and an unfinished arc at that. And the Potara thing is just Goku and Vegeta's character dynamic growing into an even more flourished one after their fusion, yeah it's dumb but that's the point. The pride of the Saiyan is something that they respect, and making a dumb decision wont change that. Also it's not like Goku doesn't make bad decisions earlier. Goku spares Vegeta Goku tries to spare the Ginyu force Goku tries to spare Freeza Goku gives Cell the Senzu bean(Despite this one being a part of his plan that is proven to be right) Goku chooses to stay dead(This one being valid at the time but being disproven the next arc on purpose) Those are just some I can think off the top of my head, that no one ever questions besides the Senzu bean moment. And I know it may sound inconsistent, Goku knowing the importance of peace on earth, but crushing the Potara? Yeah, it's a moment that is supposed to focus on Goku and Vegeta's relationship. Their both confident in their strengths and think they can defeat Buu on their own, again it's not a good decision but it's not a decision that you need to look in to much to understand. Also Goku 'disregarding the deaths' of his loved ones is really just him being mature yet again. There's no time to sit around and cry when Boo could destroy the earth at any moment, at this point in time, Goku is a mentor, he's trying to teach the kids what it means to save the world just as he learned in the King Piccolo arc. It's tying in Goku's character which is the main thing I can draw all this back to. Every decision is made to make the narrative come together, and to make the story much better written. Remove those decisions and you get a really badly executed story and Goku literally puts his need to fight over his friends and family in the Saiyan and Namek arcs. He doesn't in the later 2 arcs, that's the whole point, he grows over that. He literally spared Vegeta because he wanted to fight him, Goku knew it was selfish and he still wanted it to happen. In Namek, he let Freeza reach 100 percent of his power and even refused the help of the Dragon Balls to have a full power battle with Freeza as he was most struggling with his Saiyan nature at this point in time. So when it comes to Dragon Ball's Manga or Z as most would put it. Yeah Goku isn't some heroic guy, but he is heavily misunderstood and mischaracterized by many who watch the anime.
(Part 2) Now for Super The reason Super is hated is not because of just the decisions, but the regression of character's growth being so ungodly awful. Goku's first battle against Beerus. He acts cocky and arrogant about his strength, the very thing he almost never did in the original story. He was complacent in the very first arcs, and the king piccolo arc, that was it. That's when he learned and actualized the message Kami and Popo gave to him, why is he all of a sudden back to his kid self? This is where the trend begins, it's just him being regressed over and over and over and that's why Super is badly written. The movie version of Battle of Gods is still a more accurate Goku than the anime, even considering the stakes. After Goku gave it literally everything he could, he still lost fair and square. As much as he prioritizes the safety of earth, he still does love a battle but in this case, he just lost. He couldn't do any more, what do you expect him to do? It gives him a more mature and satisfying send off to this battle than the anime. Now Super apparently giving him more time to be a character is hilarious, most of those moments are somewhat forgettable fillers that while are cute and heart warming, don't do much to the actual character. People love Goku from Z because he has a character arc and a story that is fulfilled and well written. In fact, his fatherhood and adulthood is a part of his character. He is a father to Gohan, a flawed one but what can you expect considering his alien heritage and the situations he's put in? Most importantly, once given the chance he waits for 10 whole years to meet a being he created to nurture and train him like he should. That being the situation with Uub. Plus there's more with Goku than just Gohan in the beginning of Z, like him with Gohan in the Namek arc, the Cell arc, and ya know, the Buu arc. They have great moments together, those moments are just overshined by more important, narrative driven plot points.
Super introduction Beerus and Zeno literally goes against the main idea of Goku's character. Which would be to keep going and surpassing your limits, it's even a main theme stated by Roshi. It is cool seeing Goku get stronger to match them, but once he does, then what? I guess it's okay though, It's not to bad of a thing to introduce but depending on it's execution it could be really badly written. Super Goku is by far dumber than Z Goku. He's always off guard, always ignorant and always naive. It's just traits that Goku had as a kid being applied to his adult self, the Ultra Instinct, especially in the manga is idiotic. He's already learned that type of training, his search for power is also stupid. Goku was never one who thought power was all one needed to succeed like he does against Jiren, the closest you can get is in the Boo and Cell arcs where Goku with not much time has to get the youth ready to battle of a earth threatening enemy. Sure he could do better, but with the time and pressure he had, he did all he could. Goku magically forgetting meditation is so, so stupid that it on it's own is nearly as dumb as any mistake Goku made in Z. How can he forget something so crucial and something he does often? It's also a good way to train yourself, and Goku does not just forget techniques like that..? Especially the way he criticized Vegeta for doing it, that makes it 100x more stupid. Super Goku could never dream of having more depth than Z, I don't even have to say why, just go read the manga. It's not that Super Goku should act the same as he did in Z, it's that Super Goku should be like how he was and be even better than he was in Z. He should be a competent fighter all the time, he should be a mature thinker when the situations get rough. Making mistakes is okay, he should do that to. But he shouldn't be so clueless and regressed most of the time. Now Super Goku does have a few good moments, but a few good moments is nothing compared to a fully fleshed out, well written character that the Goku in the original story is. I'll give you this one though, in Super he does use lots of intelligent techniques, comparable to those in Z, maybe even better. But the afterimage is an outlier, he does that many times as a kid. But just some techniques aren't the whole character, and I can't excuse the many flaws in the depiction of Goku that is DBS Goku. No, DBS Goku is not the same guy. He's an overly ignorant, sometime arrogant man child whom has some resemblance to the man that Z Goku was at times but doesn't hold up at all. And that's only concerning his actions and character traits. As a written character, built around a narrative, Super Goku is literally nothing compared to Goku from the original dragon ball manga. Anyways cool video, I liked it and Rest well Toriyama.
@@SlickSaiyan-ou2zcand first off it isn't character regression your just throwing the word around because super never takes away from his character z literally changes this. It can't be character regression if it was never his character to begin with dragon ball super goku is the same goku from dragon ball z they act the same and we literally never see gokus smarts in even z stop comparing dragon ball z and super compare it with the true anime dragon ball z kai
I’m not super interested in how they match up to the creators vision. If the Lord him self, Mr. Toriyama, said super goku is the exact proper intended portrayal, that doesn’t mean it’s good. Just intended.
The problem in super is that they play on gokus Immaturity way too much and it feels forced. In Z he has moments like that but its just moments. it feels like in Z theres more to his character than being goofy
I find it funny to see DBS fans defending Goku so much in DBS. If you read the original manga and then watch DBS, yes it's night and day. This comes more from the fact that Goku is treated by Toei and not by Toriyama. He has clearly become a parody of himself. He only thinks about fighting, is irresponsible, stupid, he provoked the tournament of power on a whim and even worse he goes looking for Freezer, namely the one who genocided his race. I'm not saying this to be condescending but you should sincerely read the original manga. I can see the reactions of DBS fans on Daima and this proves once again that dbs fans have entered the DB universe with a parody where Daima is consistent with the personality of Goku and the other. Remember, Goku chose not to kill Buu so that the following generations would not rely on him, he is mature enough to understand that ego is a bad thing,he likes to fight but is not irresponsible he is able to stop for the common good . he was the rational man in dragon ball.
im convinced that some of the lower comments didnt even finish watching the vid and went straight to commenting lol. also people do need to realize you can like one thing without bringing or shitting on another
That’s exactly what we’re doing we’re just stating our opinions and how we see things. We don’t have to agree to everything that this guy says in the video like your doing
@@joshuahill6020 stating your opinion? My guy, I’ve seen your other comments you’re just being a jerk and putting down people who actually enjoy super and actually understand that he wasn’t being stupid because we don’t have the freaking nostalgia glasses on.
@@joshuahill6020 stating your opinion? My guy, I’ve seen your other comments you’re just being a jerk and putting down people who actually enjoy super and actually understand that he wasn’t being stupid because we don’t have the freaking nostalgia glasses on.
Super Goku is perfectly hated maybe a bit but not overhated the reason is for us old dbz fans etc it was hard to see Goku become such an idiot after all he's gone through and do some things that even og Goku barely does it's like starting from square one while it might be good for kids/some newcomers it's pretty boring and sad to see for the ones especially who care about this and admire it some might even say it's their favorite the character regression of many characters in super is horrendous even Vegeta infact was regressed far beyond his end of Z self and isn't planning to change we already seen that in things like superhero
The entire way he acts in the Goku Black anime is never gonna make me see eye to eye with this. Never has Goku been so insufferable to watch on screen before. He's way too dumb The way he acts when Whis and Beerus visit Gowasu to find out who is Black really gets on my nerves, he's like a toddler who wants to get his way by whining, something he hasn't done before Super. He became so much better in the Tournament of Power, though, and manga Goku Black Goku gave him more braincells than he did in the anime, and I respect that highly
That's what I see people around the whole freaking media be saying, they're nostalgia of the old z dub and only watching super from clips made people hateful for dbs and their blind love for gt and dbz, also on the meditation part, that was a mistranslation bc he was surprised that vegeta of all people meditates
Na Super Goku is so out of character. Like the man is 50 still acting like a fish out of water as if it’s chapter 1 of the manga. Even GT got Goku’s silliness and seriousness more balanced than Super did. Nice try tho.
Bro I just don’t like that he’s extremely dumb to the point where it isn’t just naivety like it is in the og manga He doesn’t have to be a good person he just doesn’t have to be blatantly stupid
Bro Z Goku aint any better 😭 Goku: Vegeta cast aside your pride, We need to fuse to avenge our families and friends!!! Goku after: Yeah im gonna fight buu myself, Fuck fusion
ngl i am a db super goku hater but after watching this me saying you didnt make valid points that kinda made me realize super goku isnt as bad as ppl say, would make me delusional
Something that has bothered me is people who say that DBZ Abridged is better (Some people even arguing it's better than Super itself) when that version of Goku is horrible in comparison to Goku in Super.
Reading some of the comments make me realize that the coping is so real that people take the best part of z comparing it to the worse part of Super to justify their statement 💀😂 W Vid 👍💯
Wellp, he's got my sub. I grew up on the old Toonami dub but I only really got into Z with Kai as an adult. I like Super Goku, or Toriyama's Goku a hell of a lot more than I like the old U.S. version. I think another reason why the goofy, carefree, bumpkin Goku is better is because he's different. Toriyama's Goku is great because he's flawed, because he isn't completely stoic all the time, because he's selfish at times, arrogant at others and prone to extreme carelessness. That's a much more interesting character than "I'm the light in the darkness, I am here to slay evil while Deftones plays in the background." Goku. It's also why I prefer Goku to Gohan in literally all cases, even though Gohan is equally misunderstood. I think a lot of the contradictions even between dub/sub is because of how off-the-cuff Toriyama was about writing the manga, I think "idiot Goku" is a core part of what makes Dragon Ball so special. That's not to say I don't like the "totally badass warrior guy" version of the character, the old school dub oozed charm and I'll forever prefer the Falcouner score. Excellent video.
Super Goku claims to not understand what a kiss is (Zamasu arc when he sees trunks and mai, and has a conversation with vegeta), couldn't tell when fighting monaka that it was just a costume, lost tons of fighting experience to make training under whis seem relevant, forgot what meditation is, cant understand basic social queues to a way more extreme extent than in z, etc etc. Hes gotten so one dimensional that when gohan, his son that hes gone through so much with, tells him that hes having a kid he stares blankly and says some stupid line about food and laughs. But this issue isn't exclusive to goku, it never was. Most characters in the cast of dragonball have experienced an overexaggeration of their personalities despite any character development they got in Z. Its not like goku was never stupid at any point in z, but now thats ALL he is, an airhead.
I hate that kiss comparison so much 🤦 goku dose NOT know what mamma birding a sensu bean is. And this is the same guy who thought marriage was a food btw. Your just nip picking super gokus air headedness while goku in Z was just as dumb. And when was it the last time goku has ever seen vegeta meditate? Can u explain the whole whis thing again like what do you mean he lost a lot of experience
@Purple_23184 In that kiss scene, vegeta straight up asks goku if hes ever kissed someone. He didn't ask if he's ever fed someone with his mouth, he asked if he's ever kissed anyone. Goku's response is "No, people do that?". Goku knows ATLEAST three married couples and IS married, and doesn't have any idea what a kiss is? Also the whole not knowing what marriage is back in OG dragon ball is excusable because he's still adjusting to society and theres no one in his life that would be married unlike a normal person raised in civilization.
@ Yeah but still it’s Goku we are talking about and it’s not excusable Goku was NEVER smart in OG, Z, GT or Super y’all acting like he was ever smart period? Goku was serious in Z because they always had to stress over the fact the earth was always in danger or Goku was just straight up dead. In Super Goku is serious but not like he was in Z because everyone was pretty much dependable at that point in time like Vegeta
DBS Goku is so hated, like I cant stop seeing that edited scan comparing Z Goku acting serious while DBS Goku is mostly oblivious and just wants to fight freeza. (Which, even Z Goku does at times, as he was excited to fight people stronger than Vegeta)
Also imo, English Dub/s Goku sucks, they take away a lot of his personality and just add lines that go hard, but thats it, its cool but it adds nothing to the original.
5:50 I hate this argument He did not know that It's a coincidence And what if someone like Frieza from another universe won it? 9:38 problem isn't him making mistakes It's him not learning from them Watch OG dragon ball King piccolo saga he kept learning From his past and managed to grow from it
Sorry i have disrespectfully disagree. Super goku didnt know what meditation was. Akira's goku literally mediates in his training. And goku has moments IN the manga of him being mature. Like when he realized gohan was scared of cell and was going to step in. Or when he was regretful about trying to kill frieza. Not just showing emotions by getting angry like z. Or when goku instantly saw through vegeta's lies when he spoke about why he let babidi controlled him. Super goku would be like "uhh i dont really get it but i just gotta fight you right?" Get outta here
for the meditation part it was a mistranslation/misinterpretation, that part was actually him surprised that Vegeta even knows whats a meditation is, so ya can thank the localizers for that one
Eh agree with some of your points but overall disagree. You say read the manga but then gloss over a bunch of moments. For example while he did want to fihgt kid buu in the manga he goes straight for the kill not wasting time, then after realizing he couldn't win, he lame to that he was trying to look cool in front of vegeta and shouldn't have destroyed the potara. He is learning his lesson and wasn't, asking decisions off of selfish desire.
Well you're taking action he did later to justify his actions from earlier which is dumb because he still makes the same mistake twice. Bro prioritizes "looking cool in front of vegeta" over the death of his literal entire family and the earth according to your arguement
In the end no matter what happens...no matter what you or me, or literally ANYONE else that did research says....the old saying will always stand for most of the other "fans" "Dont mess with us Dragon Ball fans, we havent watched our own show"
Goku giving cell a sensu bean isn’t that dumb when you take into account that every villian Goku has fought made the planet a hostage when they got backed into a corner which is what cell ends up doing.
You underestimate how bad the meditation scene really is because in comparison to DBZ goku sees Vageta and knows whether he's meditating or not when he is on the rock, and the Vageta scene in Z is more important than him just being arrogant, its telling Vageta to not overwork one's muscles when he was going into the chamber again which now in the scene which is telling Goku not to do, not to mention his db training. There is a far better barbaric strong monster right next to them ahem BROLY who can learn so much more from this than the guy who we saw multiple times do this. I also dislike super gokus mannerisms like the kiss thing when he literally kissed Chichi in Z or the way he talks like a 3-year-old and feels like he doesn't know what's happening. Like his line where he's training with krillian in Super and gets annoyed when he's restricted and bumbed out he cant transform and I feel like Z Goku or I guess Goku in general would enjoy a challenge like that. I will give you this he does have a smart scene like him convincing Freiza to join the tournament very good smart Goku scene there. Overall I do agree that Goku has always been prideful of his strength and I do like that of him but his mannerisms are annoying to me in super. This is a pretty good video and argument for Super Goku. I definitely disagree with the bad father argument that everyone gives Goku since he has repeatedly shown to care for his sons (ahem buu saga sucks). The Buu saga is very very flawed compared to the rest of the saga and is a downward spiral when looking at it. Senzu Bean is less bad than people think since he was technically right Gohan completely shits on cell and he makes up for it by sacrificing himself. Another stupid super Goku scene is literally in the manga where he gets UI by remembering he is a martial artist and another far worse Senzu Bean scene.
Bro you don't get the point. Goku by the end of the original dragon ball I'd say is supposed to be an experienced fighter, and in all of Z you can clearly see it (even when he makes mistakes). In super they dumbed him down and now he suddenly has a problem with not keeping his guard up or doesn't understand meditating. There are also stupid shit like not knowing what a kiss is despite having 2 kids. In Z he was an adult even if he was a bit goofy sometimes and did make mistakes, in super he is like a child who is mature for his age. Those two types seem similar but give off very different vibes.
Also the fights in Super are pretty well thought out. Got to give props to Toei. I especially like the Black saga how Trunks and Zamasu are weaker than Goku, Vegeta and Black and it shows during the fights and it stays pretty consistent. When Goku got pissed and started beating the crap out of Black and Zamasu, Goku mostly kept Zamasu out of the way and fought Black hand to hand because he knew the former is immortal, but weaker, and the latter is a lot stronger.
As someone who actually watched through all of Dragon Ball, Z (not kai) and Super for the first time in their lives this year, I think you're right. I'd heard horror stories about how bad Goku was in Super, and while I will fully admit to preferring him in Z overall, he wasn't anywhere near as bad as I had been led on to believe over the last few years.
That was a translation error, Goku in the Sub was commenting on Trunks mama birding Mai and Vegeta thought that Goku was referring to a kiss, leaving Goku thoroughly confused, I mean we literally see him kiss Chi Chi in the forehead in the anime.
Bros been smoking that pilaf pack with this take 💀
Goated
Not the Pilaf pack. The King Picolo pack💀
I mean, what he's saying is true. DBS Goku is way more akin to how Toriyama wanted him and wrote him to be. He even said that TOEI ruined the character.
@@teeboz6237all do respect to Akira he made our childhoods but clearly based off the community in general most would say z or og dragon ball Goku overall was enjoyable for more reasons then super Goku. Like for example z Goku in the Goku black arc would have felt much more intense like the arc should have felt sure he had small moments but there was plenty times super Goku's antics and obviousness and childishness messes it up.
Example: when Goku met Goku black for the first time instead of being excited for a fight (even Goku has lines he draws) he should have immediately been on guard and asking questions before the fight (it's literally himself, in a black and red suit with a Kai earring Goku would be smart enough to be skeptical and serious considering trunks panicking when he attacked him) super Goku was way too overly lighthearted and childish. Not saying Goku isn't lighthearted and childish but they turned that stupid meter up a million with him. When I genuinely enjoyed Goku in super was ultra instinct or battle of gods movie
conclusion is gohan's fault in The majin buu saga
The worst part is. People would usually take the best goku clip from z or GT while then using a bad clip from super
Exactly
Its annoying when they compare GT to Super
also gt dub is ass 💀 has the same problems as the og DBZ dub, it tries too much to make Goku angry Superman and in general alters the characters', well, character, way too much for the worse, it's as if they're _trying_ to beat around the bush. Since we don't have GT Kai, the best "adaptation" is just the sub since it's a more direct translation
@@beibkk0Every dub of GT represents Goku as heroic. They went all out with GT hero Goku.
Because there isnt a good clip from super 🗿🗿🗿🗿
People just mad because we enjoy more stuff than they.
"You are a real dragon ball fan only if you like half of the series" is what they think.
Great video brother, keep up the good work.
Well said. Thank you!
I agree with most of what's said in the video but you left out stuff like him not being Able to figure out monaka is weak and that beerus is fighting him in a monaka suit even when Vegeta and Piccolo make it even more obvious, and him getting scratched by a bullet before the top when even as a kid he only ever got a bump on the head or bruise from them never have they ever scratched him or worse. Stuff like that where he's just being dumb for super to write him as childlike stupid. He was raised in the mountains but in z did he ever get as bad a read on someone to not figure out someone with such a familiar and stand out ish energy ad beerus or get hurt by stuff as silly as you pointed out the ray gun or a common bullet? I think that's more of what's being said like dude acts like the world's biggest idiot sometimes in Super they legit write him to say he's never had a kiss and doesn't know what it is when he has 2 kids and has had a wife for soooo long.
The fact that Goku didn't use kiaoken against zamasu until they fused just so goku black couldn't copy it is proof enough
Didn’t even think of that😮
Goku Black already knows the instant transmission, you literally see him try to use it in his first apperance. I'm not saying DBS Goku is dumb, but what you said isn't true.
supreme kais and their assistant can use instant transmission. like shin and kibito.
Shin and Kibito have demonstrated that they already know how to teleport, it may be a natural ability that a Kaioshin already learns.
@@acegameravery9488Kais can already use Instant Transmission tho. It’s probably a natural ability they have like how the Angels have a natural form of Ultra Instinct.
The ToP thing has always annoyed me and left me baffled as to how the rumour Goku suggested the ToP initially/was his fault even came to be.
Champa challenges Beerus to a tournament. Goku and Vegeta just happen to be there and agree to participate. Zeno sees this tournament and HE says he wants to throw his own. Again, Goku just happens to be present and agrees to participate.
Goku just reminds him of it which yes, ends up saving the multiverse as a whole. The fact that U7 was in jeopardy in the first place was because Beerus was rubbish at his job. Add on top of that the U6 tournament was Beerus and Champas doing, Beerus literally had nobody to blame but himself.
HMMMMM! let em cook
THIS
I will defend super Goku on that, it wasn’t his fault for putting any of the universe in danger. If anything the tournament saved all of them since the zenos we’re going to erase the ones with a low mortal count anyway
Yeah the tournament was the only reason any of them had a chance which if I remember right an angel reminded one of the gods of destruction of that and they just ignored them, and I agree with this take that goku has so more interesting moves he uses showcasing his fight smarts more and having more peace and superiority complex time, but he really left out shit like goku getting hurt by a bullet basically worse than he ever did as a child, and when he legit couldn't figure out Beerus was in a monaka suit fighting him.
So he did with vegeta and frieza. He literally spared them which can just one day blow up the earth in secret if they wanted to.
Facts. DBS Goku is just Goku enjoying his life to the fullest if you think of it
Fax
Exactly why I like Pre-Cell Games Goku
Yeah dbs goku seems like he is just vibing fr fr.
Nah he's dumbed down fr fr. The lowest of goku z doesn't compare to the lowest of goku super
Just Vibin with people's lives
You actually bring up some very good points
Thank you good sir
Goku: Vegeta, put your shitty pride aside and fuse with me to avenge our friends and family!!!
Goku immediately after: Nah, it's important to my pride that I fight Majin Buu alone... Fuck fusion!
YES FR!
@@superkamijacobAlso people forget that z Goku does just as many stupid things as super Goku if not more.
1. Not heeding the Supreme Kai's warning about buu.
2. Crushing the potara earrings when fighting buu.
3. Forgetting to take his heart medicine.
4. Not going super saiyan three against Majin Vegeta.
5. Not defeating fat buu when he had the chance.
6. Leaving his family for 10 yrs to train uub when he has instant transmission.
And many more.
@@Freegrace421you take the L for the day
@@BrotherB1ackHeartSavage please tell me why I'm wrong.
@@Freegrace421the heart medicine one you are definitely wrong about and this is a painfully common misconception among the fanbase.
Trunks instructs goku to take the meds when symptoms appear. Its a cure, not preventative. Goku FIGHTING with the virus is the stupid mistake.
That being said, the rest is more or less accurate and i agree
An actual dragon ball fan with media literacy? Impossible!
I know right? Crazy
Don’t mess with us dragon ball fans we cant comprehend anything.
“I miss when goku was creative with his skills” “I miss when the fights were hand to hand and not beams only” “I miss when goku was serious and not a child” - Mfs that enever watched Z or Super.
Goku redirecting the Kamehameha and using it as a shield to protect himself.
Rof’s movie had some amazing hand to hand and one episode i can think of right off the top of my head (pre TOP) was goku vs hit in episode 70 something.
Goku in the hospital, and on his way to namek have to be some of the goofiest ive see him, and thats just from early Z.
Its like some poeple just want goku to have one character trait 100% of the time instead of letting that trait shine when its really called for. Just so happens its called for in alot of Z.
My guy went from fighting his own kind to a literal GOD and they are still demanding my man to fight hand to hand, like what???
@@IYIisterJackyMajority of Goku Vs Beerus in BoG was hand to hand🤦♂️
You must have stopped watching Z at that point. Z Goku was far better then Super Goku throughout Z.
@@user-im1hu8ci3g Thats because Beerus was holding back
@@user-im1hu8ci3g Im ngl I kinda dropped during the middle of Buu Saga
The Tournament of Power is a perfect example for this. No light-hearted jokes from him (besides Ribrianne moments), no dumb decisions like in the Cell Saga, no overestimating or underestimating like in the Buu Saga, instead just sheer focus and concentration on protecting his universe against equals/stronger opponents. Hell, he outright states he wants to protect his friend first and foremost. He got scared when Master Rochi was falling behind, AND WAS READY TO PUMEL HIS ENEMY IN SSJ BLUE TO SAVE THE MAN. It's like using a nuke to blow up a damn cockroach.
Super Goku is "dumber" only because he actually has opportunities to essentially be himself, just like you've said. And now that his allies are around his strength, he knows his friends and the Earth will be protected without him (callback to Buu Saga maybe????), and so, he can fuck around and find out whenever he wants.
YES!
Bro planted ki mines under Jiren, Ki mines!
Gt Goku ain't doing any of this
Not only that, but Gohan is also stepping up once more to be a defender of earth. And he's made his father proud of him to say that he knows earth will be protected once he's gone. And that's great.
@@wagy7519 fr he would have tp him outside the stadium right away
"he actually has opportunities to essentially be himself" adult goku was never portray to be that dumb
I have finally found YOU!!! A DRAGON BALL FAN THAT READS THE SERIES!!!
Mhm! Watched it many times
Frfr a true rarity
@@wwaltonfaxs
@@superkamijacob seems like we are the last of our kind. (i have watched DBZ Kai, super and currently watching daima and og db)
@@superkamijacob damn wish i could watch DBZ kai and og db the only DB i can watch is super and daima
Ngl. I LOVE the "I am the hope of the universe" speech! I know its not how Goku is supossed to be but It gives me chills when I hear him say, "ALLY TO GOOD! NIGHMARE TO YOU!"
The Kai version is FAR better
And that is fine! You can absolutely have your own opinion. I prefer Kai, but I'm not denying that a large part of that is because I grew up watching it
@@superkamijacobhumble af
I really really got into it and watched it after both came out and dragon ball was in a dry state, and I can say after watching and consuming a lot of db content I do prefer kai
Understandable, have a great day👍
Finally someone else who agrees that super Goku is in character
Damn rite
Holy shit somone finally says it, I'm tired of the whole "Super Goku isn't Goku bs" people will see like an edited clip of Goku being super serious in GT and go "man i miss THIS Goku" like god shut up
Basically, super saiyan 4 goku in GT
@superkamijacob and I like that one alot, it's my favorite form
Same, but probably mainly for the reason that I hated how they reverted goku to a kid
@superkamijacob eh that was never a big issue for me even if it didn't end up changing all to much overall, I think the biggest crime of GT is how emotional and actually good the Super 17 arc could've been, all those moments with 18 and 17 were actually really good and it's also Insane to me how those same GT fanboys lump the greatness of not only Baby but his whole arc as equal with the the rest of GT now if I did have one genuine complaint with Super as well just to play devils advocate "more of a personal thing" I really wish they just adapted the best bits of the manga and anime "mainly the manga" into a sorta DBS revamp akin to the likes of FMA Brotherhood
Yeah because he’s barley ever serious in super and treats every situation the same way
5:56 too be fair Goku didn’t know that the universes would be erased he thought it was a normal tournament
Yes, I made this point
@ you meant he saved them you didn’t mention he didn’t know the consequences of losing goku is selfish but is not narcissistic he still cares to a certain degree and by the Moro arc he does gain a sense of justice
Well I focused on the results, not just the understanding. If I did a full in depth analysis, I would talk about how the furry basically gaslit everyone into believing Goku was a villain when in reality, his suggestion saved the universes. Additionally, he just wanted a tournament, but that much was already obvious so i didn't think it was worth mentioning
he unknowingly saved the Multiverse
when he suggested a tournament
if tournament didn't happen, everything could've been erased
The reason why Goku acts the way he does in Super is because times are just now different now😭 Z had much higher stakes and everybody was constantly in danger and Goku was even dead the majority of the series due to such danger. Super only had one true villian which was Black and that was only because Goku literally chose to fight and stop him since it was a different timeline. Goku is obviously going to be a lot happier and goofier because he actually CAN now.
Exactly
What are you on about? The earth got freaking destroyed, and the entire multiverse was at the mercy of Zeno. DBS by no means was a peaceful time.
@@Top_E_Official In the first instance, time got reversed by Whis, further proving our point that the literal deities on Goku's side give him a sense of security.
In the second instance, Goku was fully serious for the full duration of the tournament. That's the point, right? RIGHT?
even in chill moment you dont see z or end of og goku acting like he does in super.
@@sc-1918yes you DO, it’s just rare because Z was constant stakes
They called me a fool... they called me a bunch of stuff because *i know how to read my favorite series.*
1st: people never rewatched Z again aftee rewatching Super. Making alot of their takes based on what they remember.
2: Most of fans who say Z wa serious are ENG watchers. That shit changed the entire image of goku. Japanese Z goku = Super goku
Giving cell a Sansu bean is not a mistake
Maybe not, but a lot of people considered it one
Why?
@@superkamijacobif you are counting what people think instead of what you think isn't that kind of hypocritical
Honestly I think it was a mistake since it just made it harder for gihan even though he could win but maybe it was blessing in disguise
Didn't Goku literally regret doing that as he realized pretty quickly that Gohan wasn't built for that ass beating. And didn't Goku literally have to help defeat Cell even though he's entire plan to have Gohan do it failed badly.
The senzu bean was a character mistake made to hype up Cell and Gohans fight. It was a bad writing choice.
For the Buu saga, I genuinely put the blame on everyone who could have ended the saga earlier, especially since in Future Trunks’ timeline, he managed to kill Babbabi and Daurba before they unleashed Buu, so Buu saga could have been avoided if the Z fighters weren’t too busy messing around and being too damn cocky.
People will hate you for saying it, but yeah, goku is largely just as smart in super ad in Z and id say hes even smarter when it comes to combat. Also, the whole "goku forgot how to meditate" thing, couldve been a valid argument, had it not been a misinterpretation. It was that he was shocked that vegeta was meditating, he didnt even think vegeta knew what it is, so vegeta explained what it was but goku obvioiusly knows. In the super hero movie the staff likely just misinterpreted what the doalogue was supposed to be, but the manga fixed that. Similar scenario with goku not knowing what a kiss is. Bro has 2 kids, itd be wild of he didnt know what a kiss was. It was a joke about trunks bird feeding that was lost in translation so they made it so that goku didnt know what a kiss was. Dbzs dub made goku look greater than he was, while supers dub makes goku look like less than what he is.
Couldn't agree more.
The mental gymnastics DBSlop fans have to do to defend DBS 47IQ Goku 😂😂
Defend him forgetting the senzu beans on the toilet and the Mafuba seal in the Goku Black arc lol
I’ll give you the senzu, but the Mafuba was wholeheartedly Roshi’s fault because he in a manga page and in the anime in the Tournament of Power, showed that he could’ve given Goku a jar that already had the seal on it.
well he dont know what a kiss or intimate relations is... he is that pure.
so chichi been graping all this time. its sad ok 😟😁
this is why he is allowed to ride nimbus. lol.
glad the manga fixed his mediatation statements. that was part of his first training with a god in og db.
@@universalshadow I mean Goku also passed the universe 6 vs 7 per tournament exam. the test had college level questions on it and Goku solved one in particular most people can't solve.
dudes not stupid in super, hes just relaxed.
One thing I disagree with you is that Goku is not a hero. He is not a super hero by any means but he often does things that goes against his own desires, making him a hero.
there is a good amount of mischaracterizations of Goku in Z rip
Heonot the traditional “save the world goody two shoes superman”, but since his debut he’s had a strong sense of right and wrong and does have a strong and pure desire to help people.
Awesome video, I also love super goku.
also, im so glad your using sonic and the black knights ost, that games get slept on so much
Damn right 😎
As a guy who got into Dragon Ball through my uncle’s hand me down manga, I appreciate you having actually seen the series
Of course 😎
This is nice to hear and you have very good points!
I also find it funny how you have this absolute BEEF with Great Ape Vegeta in dragon ball sparking zero.
Thank you! And yes, I hate him
@superkamijacob You're welcome lol!
completely ignore the fact that goku in super is not only demented (forgetting things he learned from his experience) but apparently also lacks even more brain cells than he did in Z. Not overhated, kind of deserved.
6:35 actually that’s a pretty good view point on the whole goku essentially dragging all these universes into a battlefield for their survival 😭
Well yes and no. Cuz some wolf guy made it propaganda against Goku when it was clear the universes were gonna be wiped out anyway
It is an honest shit take. This is the problem with all the sheep nowadays. They see a youtuber upload a video with a title about an opinion and instantly attribute intelligence to the youtuber without doing their own research. It is valid that many people jump on a bandwagon of an opinion with no foreknowledge or thought of their own. I'm arguing that in the case of not just Goku, but super as a whole, is an organic criticism that dragonball as a franchise has become nothing more than a souless cash grab. From multiple character assasinations, to contrived plots with zero to no resolution, to asspull transformations for the sole purpose of selling more toys and dlcs, laziness and no direction. You are making the argument that super goku is not only overhated, but actually better than Z goku. Especially the point that Super goku actually saved the universes because the plot decided to give him the W. Goku had NO knowledge whatsoever about Zeno's plan to test the universes. So in the end, it was Zeno and Android 17 who saved all of the universes with the selfless wish. Goku acted reckless to a multiversal degree because he was told by Beerus and even WHIS to NOT mess around with Zeno as Zeno is an unpredictable being who is not like anyone else. What did Goku do with this information? "But that's Zenny, he would never." As he proceeded to disregard the orders of the god of destruction and his master whis. Beerus saw goku so much so as a threat to existence that beerus was going to eliminate him there. That's when goku pulled the zeno switch trick on beerus and left to go remind zeno of the tournament. Z wasn't perfec by any means, but there's a reason why it is the most beloved of all the dragonball series' and its not just because of the action. And I don't care if you put a "pin of shame" on me because super goku is trash and way better than Z goku and I'll die on that hill. Make your arguments.
Damn, u really made this whole argument just for it to fall apart because of subjectivity and blue wolf propaganda.
U can have ur own opinion about Goku, I don't really care. But to sit here and say that none of my videos is valid while addressing zero of my arguments is dishonest.
Also bout the Goku universe thing? In case u missed it, Zeno was gonna erase all the universes, but Goku proposed the tournament of power which gave him the idea to get them another chance.
@superkamijacob super dishonest. Bad take, bud. You're gonna sit here and say goku proposed the idea of the top? It was Zeno who wanted that back at the end of the u6 tournament after seeing the champa tournament. Zeno was already set in giving the universes this opportunity. All goku did was remind zeno of the tournament, which was reckless because he did not care about beerus and whis' warning about zeno. I'm not accusing goku of being malicious or anything, but he was reckless in that regard.
You made another point about Goku saying the reason they didn't go beat up gero before he made the androids was for 2 things,
1. They don't know where he is, bulma said maybe they could use the dragonball to find his base.
2. Goku said that he didn't believe in beating up someone if they haven't done anything wrong yet, which is in character for him and a moral position.
Goku giving cell the senzu was because he was 100% about gohans potential and he wouldn't have done it if he wasn't 100%.
The buu saga was goku simply trying to set up the next generation of heroes as he's not even supposed to be there on earth. You see it as a bad thing because youre only thinking short term. Goku intended this to be a more than long term more like permanent strategy to prepare his children for adversities without goku. Let's say goku did destroy majin buu as a ssj3, then what? Goten and trunks can't fuse, don't have what it takes to protect the earth because they haven't gone through adversity. Gohan will just cancel his training with the kais and go home as goku already beat buu. Gohan would have turned out the same way, if not worse than how he was in superhero where he says "why should I train, my dad and vegeta will handle it." Then freiza is resurrected and destroys them all. Even though in hindsight we know goku stays alive, his plan was for the next generation to be able to protect the earth as he wasn't planning on coming back until he had to near the end of the saga. Give him some credit at least for the intention he had for his actions in the buu saga
3:50 „i am a warrior, pure of heart, Awakend by fury“ gues hard
God it's so good
Fun fact: in the goku black arc, the manga version has master roshi forget to give goku the talisman
Goku is an absolute mastermind capable of coming up with endless ways to abuse gnomes or escape live of a married man
Brotha what 😭
Ong ive been saying this for a while
People love to crap on Super Goku
Goku only Goes serious in fights when the situation calls for it
Exactly
23:24. did you really forgot about gero's legendary door?
lol
FINALLY BRUH SOMEONE AGREES WITH ME
😎
I heard of a theory saying that goku actually kinda went insane during his time in the afterlife explaining his odd behaviours in the buu arc and super. And the fact that he lost any sense time or general meaning to life and treats everything as if it won't have any impactful consequences.
Those nostalgia driven people are so annoying
Its not nostalgia, people just prefer the serious goku that didn't forget what meditation was🙏
@@yardite7777 translation error. He was surprised that Vegeta of all people would meditate
@@yardite7777try doing a quick google search, rather than making a fool of yourself
@@yardite7777Someone didn’t watch the video smh 🤦♂️
@@TotallyRealPerfectCell I didn't know that, what about goku becoming a man child in super then?
I think there was someone from when Kai was new who said that the old Funi dub was more faithful to the manga than Kai.
Interesting...
15:54 wtf are you talking about that was “the only time he got to show this kind of love to his children”. He went fishing with Gohan in the cell saga, which he said he would do in the saiyan saga.
thats filter and not cannon (anime only episode)
Do your own research, because I don't remember if what I just typed is correct 😅
That's fair, but to be fair, it was a pretty small event so it's easy to forget about (and it was happening with the tension of the cell games in the air)
I still wake up in cold sweats from krillin screaming help me😢
Thank you for this. The really terrible characterization of Goku in the original Z Dub rotted the brains of DB Fans, they all expect Goku to act like batman, rip all his opponents to shreds instantly, and talk like Z Broly all the time.
Somethings I'd like to comment on
- Goku letting his guard down was pretty justified in ROF, firstly he did do this with Frieza on Namek could actually sense the ki coming towards him while in ROF Goku was exhausted and got shot at by a laser beam (not ki) from someone who had barely any ki signal. He also had 0 reason to think someone like a Frieza solider could sneak up on him because he literally saw Frieza obliterate most of them by just transforming
- Goku forgetting the seal is more forgetful than stupid
- Goku "forgetting" meditation was actually a mistranslation that was fixed in the manga
Good Video overall, its nice to see a DB Yter who doesn't spew misinformation that brainrots DB Fans
Yeah man, I wanna present it straight
Watch Kai. Then you'll see why Super Goku is a lobotomization compared to Z Goku.
@@user-im1hu8ci3g already did. Goku in Z is still dumber than he is in Super
@@user-im1hu8ci3gwatch the series. Then you'll see why goku is dumb in certain instances in retrospect, and his stupidity peaks in z/kai
@user-im1hu8ci3g you need to rewatch Kai then.
Especially when talking about manga Goku, he smiled only once in the goku black arc because he knew how serious the situation was. Z Goku would've AT THE VERY LEAST made some jokes here and there
bruh.
Did you really need to bring up my 90s bills here.
That shit still hurts me to this day, specially my brother I was like barely conscious for when the Bills were good in the 90s.
Had to do it man
Z Goku was a young adult on a place where being effortlessly planetary was the biggest threat on the universe
Super Goku is a man in his 40's who isn't suprised at galaxy busters and just tries to have fun even when he is aware of how much things are stacked against him
I agree with this so much
“GoKu ShOwEd A lOt MoRe InTeLgEnSe In DrAgOn BaLl SuPeR” what do you mean?! He only showed more battle intelligence and probably only in the anime and he’s actually intelligentsia is even lower than in Z
It's almost like 90 percent the time, Goku is in battle. Also, nice of u to just ignore the other half of my points
I completely agree that goku didn't have time to be goofy or stupid in Z so his dumbass moments in Z aren't too outlandish when you come off of Dragon Ball. DB Super Goku does get time to be goofy and stupid, but the issue is, in comparison to OG dragon ball goku is overly stupid way too much (not all the time, but too much)
I can somewhat agree with that. However, the tone of super as a whole is way different than Z so I believe it causes fans to cherry pick whatever they can to say that super goku is stupid
DBS was written and managed like shit, although yes some can be excused because regardless Toriyama did give some work. Not all of it can be hand waved
Goku has maybe 3 or 4 stupid moments in the manga of super (and 2 of them make alot of sense considering he doesnt have education past maybe first grade level from roshi.) I have only seen the ToP for the anime, but goku was smarter in the anime version of the ToP than he EVER was in Z, so idk where this "Goku was handled poorly in super" comes from, especially since goku was suppossed to be even dumber than he is, yet tactically goku is smarter than ever.
@@rednaxela5960 I think it mostly stems from the Goku Black Saga where Goku forgets important things like the Senzu Beans and the sealing tag for the Mafuba.
@@kbashley720cap written great
you cant argue with dbz fans they dont even watch the show they just watch edits on the internet
Perhaps, but I'll still give a crack at it
Thank you for defending super Goku but most importantly understanding super goku. Subbed
Thanks for the sub!
LET THIS MAN COOK. THESE DBZ GOKU GLAZERS DELUSIONAL ASF🗣️
2:43 Are you deadass? His eyebrows are slanted to give off a regretful expression as opposed to the anime's stern look.
The caption doesn't help me tell if you're joking or not
Hang on, I remember Bulma suggesting *using the Dragon Balls to figure out where Gero was.* I don't think she would've suggested that if she knew where he lived.
That's correct, I got that part wrong
Cool video, but some really dumb points are made (This is a yap session)
How can Super Goku be more accurate than the Goku Toriyama both wrote and drew when writing the original manga?
Of course, the Z dub is really inaccurate and unfaithful to the characters, but even so, Super itself is also unfaithful to the characters. At least when considering the development they did go through in the original story.
Something I could point on in Super, is Goku's choice to practically make the TOP a thing. While it ended up being a good decision, the Goku by the end of the Boo arc, and therefore the one whom enters Super would not make this choice given his knowledge. Goku learned over the course of his youth and adulthood about the importance of saving the earth and keeping it peaceful, it's a main narrative plot point for his struggles, especially during the Saiyan and Namek arc. You notice in the Cell and Buu arcs, Goku practically never lets an opponent away or get stronger for the reason of wanting to best them himself, it's always a motive that involves someone else. Goku had no idea his decision would end up saving the universes, and in no way would he want to make such a thing happen when it could mean the destruction of everything he loves. As much as he loves to fight, he'd already learned to mature and make decisions that were more important than his own instincts. I just can't see Goku being so oblivious and stupid even, making that decision, much like how he is in a lot of Super.
The next problem with Super Goku is the one everyone always mentions, but it is valid. He's just stupid, in a lot of scenes. Which is not who Goku is, at least how he is characterized in the original manga of Dragon Ball. Goku was never stupid, he was naive and ignorant, that is it. In fact he is characterized by making a handful of good and even intelligent situations in scenes, or being the mature figure like when Majin Vegeta killed those innocents in the Budokai.
The Super Saiyan 3 point was always dumb to me, because hello? Babadi needs energy, guess what generates and takes an amount of energy almost no one can produce at the time... The Super Saiyan 3 transformation, that would have filled Babadi's meter way quicker than just two SSJ2 fighters, no matter how quickly one thinks he'd beat Vegeta in that form.
The OTHER Super Saiyan 3 point is more valid, but it isn't an actual writing flaw but a genuine mistake on Goku's end. He had good intent, but he was ignorant of how unready the kids really were to face Buu. In such a dire, unprepped situation he had to get them as strong as possible and hope for the best. Yeah, SSJ3 Goku could beat Buu. But that would be bad writing, why would you want him to end the arc there with no narrative satisfaction. Just he beat's Buu, doesn't learn anything with the help of Vegeta and Hercule. Gotenks and Gohan's power, along with Vegito don't exist. It just makes the arc really short and an unfinished arc at that. And the Potara thing is just Goku and Vegeta's character dynamic growing into an even more flourished one after their fusion, yeah it's dumb but that's the point. The pride of the Saiyan is something that they respect, and making a dumb decision wont change that. Also it's not like Goku doesn't make bad decisions earlier.
Goku spares Vegeta
Goku tries to spare the Ginyu force
Goku tries to spare Freeza
Goku gives Cell the Senzu bean(Despite this one being a part of his plan that is proven to be right)
Goku chooses to stay dead(This one being valid at the time but being disproven the next arc on purpose)
Those are just some I can think off the top of my head, that no one ever questions besides the Senzu bean moment.
And I know it may sound inconsistent, Goku knowing the importance of peace on earth, but crushing the Potara? Yeah, it's a moment that is supposed to focus on Goku and Vegeta's relationship. Their both confident in their strengths and think they can defeat Buu on their own, again it's not a good decision but it's not a decision that you need to look in to much to understand.
Also Goku 'disregarding the deaths' of his loved ones is really just him being mature yet again. There's no time to sit around and cry when Boo could destroy the earth at any moment, at this point in time, Goku is a mentor, he's trying to teach the kids what it means to save the world just as he learned in the King Piccolo arc. It's tying in Goku's character which is the main thing I can draw all this back to. Every decision is made to make the narrative come together, and to make the story much better written. Remove those decisions and you get a really badly executed story and Goku literally puts his need to fight over his friends and family in the Saiyan and Namek arcs. He doesn't in the later 2 arcs, that's the whole point, he grows over that. He literally spared Vegeta because he wanted to fight him, Goku knew it was selfish and he still wanted it to happen. In Namek, he let Freeza reach 100 percent of his power and even refused the help of the Dragon Balls to have a full power battle with Freeza as he was most struggling with his Saiyan nature at this point in time.
So when it comes to Dragon Ball's Manga or Z as most would put it. Yeah Goku isn't some heroic guy, but he is heavily misunderstood and mischaracterized by many who watch the anime.
(Part 2) Now for Super
The reason Super is hated is not because of just the decisions, but the regression of character's growth being so ungodly awful. Goku's first battle against Beerus. He acts cocky and arrogant about his strength, the very thing he almost never did in the original story. He was complacent in the very first arcs, and the king piccolo arc, that was it. That's when he learned and actualized the message Kami and Popo gave to him, why is he all of a sudden back to his kid self? This is where the trend begins, it's just him being regressed over and over and over and that's why Super is badly written.
The movie version of Battle of Gods is still a more accurate Goku than the anime, even considering the stakes. After Goku gave it literally everything he could, he still lost fair and square. As much as he prioritizes the safety of earth, he still does love a battle but in this case, he just lost. He couldn't do any more, what do you expect him to do? It gives him a more mature and satisfying send off to this battle than the anime.
Now Super apparently giving him more time to be a character is hilarious, most of those moments are somewhat forgettable fillers that while are cute and heart warming, don't do much to the actual character. People love Goku from Z because he has a character arc and a story that is fulfilled and well written. In fact, his fatherhood and adulthood is a part of his character. He is a father to Gohan, a flawed one but what can you expect considering his alien heritage and the situations he's put in? Most importantly, once given the chance he waits for 10 whole years to meet a being he created to nurture and train him like he should. That being the situation with Uub.
Plus there's more with Goku than just Gohan in the beginning of Z, like him with Gohan in the Namek arc, the Cell arc, and ya know, the Buu arc. They have great moments together, those moments are just overshined by more important, narrative driven plot points.
Super introduction Beerus and Zeno literally goes against the main idea of Goku's character. Which would be to keep going and surpassing your limits, it's even a main theme stated by Roshi. It is cool seeing Goku get stronger to match them, but once he does, then what? I guess it's okay though, It's not to bad of a thing to introduce but depending on it's execution it could be really badly written.
Super Goku is by far dumber than Z Goku. He's always off guard, always ignorant and always naive. It's just traits that Goku had as a kid being applied to his adult self, the Ultra Instinct, especially in the manga is idiotic. He's already learned that type of training, his search for power is also stupid. Goku was never one who thought power was all one needed to succeed like he does against Jiren, the closest you can get is in the Boo and Cell arcs where Goku with not much time has to get the youth ready to battle of a earth threatening enemy. Sure he could do better, but with the time and pressure he had, he did all he could. Goku magically forgetting meditation is so, so stupid that it on it's own is nearly as dumb as any mistake Goku made in Z. How can he forget something so crucial and something he does often? It's also a good way to train yourself, and Goku does not just forget techniques like that..? Especially the way he criticized Vegeta for doing it, that makes it 100x more stupid.
Super Goku could never dream of having more depth than Z, I don't even have to say why, just go read the manga.
It's not that Super Goku should act the same as he did in Z, it's that Super Goku should be like how he was and be even better than he was in Z. He should be a competent fighter all the time, he should be a mature thinker when the situations get rough. Making mistakes is okay, he should do that to. But he shouldn't be so clueless and regressed most of the time. Now Super Goku does have a few good moments, but a few good moments is nothing compared to a fully fleshed out, well written character that the Goku in the original story is.
I'll give you this one though, in Super he does use lots of intelligent techniques, comparable to those in Z, maybe even better. But the afterimage is an outlier, he does that many times as a kid. But just some techniques aren't the whole character, and I can't excuse the many flaws in the depiction of Goku that is DBS Goku.
No, DBS Goku is not the same guy. He's an overly ignorant, sometime arrogant man child whom has some resemblance to the man that Z Goku was at times but doesn't hold up at all. And that's only concerning his actions and character traits. As a written character, built around a narrative, Super Goku is literally nothing compared to Goku from the original dragon ball manga.
Anyways cool video, I liked it and Rest well Toriyama.
Holy yap session, just make a video at this point.
@@GRIND9551 fr
So you never watched og dragon ball because in multiple episodes and manga panels goku is bluntly idiotic and called an idiot
@@SlickSaiyan-ou2zcand first off it isn't character regression your just throwing the word around because super never takes away from his character z literally changes this. It can't be character regression if it was never his character to begin with dragon ball super goku is the same goku from dragon ball z they act the same and we literally never see gokus smarts in even z stop comparing dragon ball z and super compare it with the true anime dragon ball z kai
1:04 PEAK SONG CHOICE
😎
I’m not super interested in how they match up to the creators vision. If the Lord him self, Mr. Toriyama, said super goku is the exact proper intended portrayal, that doesn’t mean it’s good. Just intended.
Agreed
The problem in super is that they play on gokus Immaturity way too much and it feels forced. In Z he has moments like that but its just moments. it feels like in Z theres more to his character than being goofy
Thank you. So many people don’t understand goku as a character and this video needed to be made
Gold medal 🥇 man you actually read the manga
I find it funny to see DBS fans defending Goku so much in DBS. If you read the original manga and then watch DBS, yes it's night and day. This comes more from the fact that Goku is treated by Toei and not by Toriyama. He has clearly become a parody of himself. He only thinks about fighting, is irresponsible, stupid, he provoked the tournament of power on a whim and even worse he goes looking for Freezer, namely the one who genocided his race.
I'm not saying this to be condescending but you should sincerely read the original manga. I can see the reactions of DBS fans on Daima and this proves once again that dbs fans have entered the DB universe with a parody where Daima is consistent with the personality of Goku and the other. Remember, Goku chose not to kill Buu so that the following generations would not rely on him, he is mature enough to understand that ego is a bad thing,he likes to fight but is not irresponsible he is able to stop for the common good . he was the rational man in dragon ball.
You spittin in this one gang
💯
im convinced that some of the lower comments didnt even finish watching the vid and went straight to commenting lol.
also people do need to realize you can like one thing without bringing or shitting on another
Fr man 😭
That’s exactly what we’re doing we’re just stating our opinions and how we see things. We don’t have to agree to everything that this guy says in the video like your doing
@@joshuahill6020 stating your opinion? My guy, I’ve seen your other comments you’re just being a jerk and putting down people who actually enjoy super and actually understand that he wasn’t being stupid because we don’t have the freaking nostalgia glasses on.
@@joshuahill6020 stating your opinion? My guy, I’ve seen your other comments you’re just being a jerk and putting down people who actually enjoy super and actually understand that he wasn’t being stupid because we don’t have the freaking nostalgia glasses on.
@@superkamijacob it trees a
goten and the juicebox caught me offguard lmao
🤣 u can also find him peaking behind me at some point
@@superkamijacob lmao i js found it
Super Goku is perfectly hated maybe a bit but not overhated the reason is for us old dbz fans etc it was hard to see Goku become such an idiot after all he's gone through and do some things that even og Goku barely does it's like starting from square one while it might be good for kids/some newcomers it's pretty boring and sad to see for the ones especially who care about this and admire it some might even say it's their favorite the character regression of many characters in super is horrendous even Vegeta infact was regressed far beyond his end of Z self and isn't planning to change we already seen that in things like superhero
The entire way he acts in the Goku Black anime is never gonna make me see eye to eye with this. Never has Goku been so insufferable to watch on screen before. He's way too dumb
The way he acts when Whis and Beerus visit Gowasu to find out who is Black really gets on my nerves, he's like a toddler who wants to get his way by whining, something he hasn't done before Super.
He became so much better in the Tournament of Power, though, and manga Goku Black Goku gave him more braincells than he did in the anime, and I respect that highly
And I respect that because I actually agree. For the sake of this video however, I took the position of defending him
I Agree with your statement
You're as dumb as dbs Goku then
😎
@@superkamijacob yup
That's what I see people around the whole freaking media be saying, they're nostalgia of the old z dub and only watching super from clips made people hateful for dbs and their blind love for gt and dbz, also on the meditation part, that was a mistranslation bc he was surprised that vegeta of all people meditates
I agree that some people (and by some i mean 90% of the fandom) are nostalgia blinded
The old Z dub is bad. Kai is the best way to watch it.
Also Z Goku is better
Wasn't that an error in the Japanese sub as well or am I mistaken?
@@Jake_the_ladZ Goku and Super Goku are the same. Super Goku has just already gone through his Majin Buu saga character arc.
@@thelettucebarrel7784 Except one is naive and the other is damn near retarded unless he's fighting.
Na Super Goku is so out of character. Like the man is 50 still acting like a fish out of water as if it’s chapter 1 of the manga.
Even GT got Goku’s silliness and seriousness more balanced than Super did. Nice try tho.
Bro I just don’t like that he’s extremely dumb to the point where it isn’t just naivety like it is in the og manga
He doesn’t have to be a good person he just doesn’t have to be blatantly stupid
Bro Z Goku aint any better 😭
Goku: Vegeta cast aside your pride, We need to fuse to avenge our families and friends!!!
Goku after: Yeah im gonna fight buu myself, Fuck fusion
ngl i am a db super goku hater but after watching this me saying you didnt make valid points that kinda made me realize super goku isnt as bad as ppl say, would make me delusional
I appreciate that
Something that has bothered me is people who say that DBZ Abridged is better (Some people even arguing it's better than Super itself) when that version of Goku is horrible in comparison to Goku in Super.
I honestly just look at it like its own series at this point
GT Goku is the perfect version of Goku with a better balance of serious and unserious moments than any other version of Goku
This is the goku who insulted Gohan and forgot pan
Pan in Japanese is Bread. Goku's grandfather was Japanese, he thought they were talking about food, he didn't forget his granddaughter
I think Goku's getting dumber as he gets older.
Probably because of the brain injury he had when he was a child. Because it's getting worse.
☠️
😭
Also for the Goku not wanting in DBZ to go to Gero's lab Gero if already a android would've killed them all.
Reading some of the comments make me realize that the coping is so real that people take the best part of z comparing it to the worse part of Super to justify their statement 💀😂
W Vid 👍💯
Fr ☠️
11:43 THE DRNK MENTIONED!!!!! 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥💯💯💯💯💯🍺🍻🍻🍷🍷🍸🍸🍹🍹🥂🥂🍾🥃🍶☕️🍵🧉🥛🧃🫖🧊🧊🧊
9:24 THE JUICEBOX😭
Damn right ✅️
“Outside of meditation, outside of getting blasted by a raygun” yeah, when you remove 2 crucial parts of the story you can morph any point you want
Wellp, he's got my sub.
I grew up on the old Toonami dub but I only really got into Z with Kai as an adult. I like Super Goku, or Toriyama's Goku a hell of a lot more than I like the old U.S. version. I think another reason why the goofy, carefree, bumpkin Goku is better is because he's different. Toriyama's Goku is great because he's flawed, because he isn't completely stoic all the time, because he's selfish at times, arrogant at others and prone to extreme carelessness. That's a much more interesting character than "I'm the light in the darkness, I am here to slay evil while Deftones plays in the background." Goku. It's also why I prefer Goku to Gohan in literally all cases, even though Gohan is equally misunderstood.
I think a lot of the contradictions even between dub/sub is because of how off-the-cuff Toriyama was about writing the manga, I think "idiot Goku" is a core part of what makes Dragon Ball so special.
That's not to say I don't like the "totally badass warrior guy" version of the character, the old school dub oozed charm and I'll forever prefer the Falcouner score.
Excellent video.
Well said!
Completely agree with your thesis, and that characterization is why the serious moments in Super hit so much harder.
8:05 oh, so you aware of the whole "Ridiculously strong, on a whole other level" delema
Oh yeah 🤣
damn bro u coocked in this vid 🔥
Thank u!
Coocked nothing 💀
Super Goku claims to not understand what a kiss is (Zamasu arc when he sees trunks and mai, and has a conversation with vegeta), couldn't tell when fighting monaka that it was just a costume, lost tons of fighting experience to make training under whis seem relevant, forgot what meditation is, cant understand basic social queues to a way more extreme extent than in z, etc etc. Hes gotten so one dimensional that when gohan, his son that hes gone through so much with, tells him that hes having a kid he stares blankly and says some stupid line about food and laughs.
But this issue isn't exclusive to goku, it never was. Most characters in the cast of dragonball have experienced an overexaggeration of their personalities despite any character development they got in Z. Its not like goku was never stupid at any point in z, but now thats ALL he is, an airhead.
I hate that kiss comparison so much 🤦 goku dose NOT know what mamma birding a sensu bean is. And this is the same guy who thought marriage was a food btw. Your just nip picking super gokus air headedness while goku in Z was just as dumb. And when was it the last time goku has ever seen vegeta meditate? Can u explain the whole whis thing again like what do you mean he lost a lot of experience
@Purple_23184
In that kiss scene, vegeta straight up asks goku if hes ever kissed someone. He didn't ask if he's ever fed someone with his mouth, he asked if he's ever kissed anyone. Goku's response is "No, people do that?". Goku knows ATLEAST three married couples and IS married, and doesn't have any idea what a kiss is? Also the whole not knowing what marriage is back in OG dragon ball is excusable because he's still adjusting to society and theres no one in his life that would be married unlike a normal person raised in civilization.
@ Yeah but still it’s Goku we are talking about and it’s not excusable Goku was NEVER smart in OG, Z, GT or Super y’all acting like he was ever smart period? Goku was serious in Z because they always had to stress over the fact the earth was always in danger or Goku was just straight up dead. In Super Goku is serious but not like he was in Z because everyone was pretty much dependable at that point in time like Vegeta
DBS Goku is so hated, like I cant stop seeing that edited scan comparing Z Goku acting serious while DBS Goku is mostly oblivious and just wants to fight freeza.
(Which, even Z Goku does at times, as he was excited to fight people stronger than Vegeta)
Also imo, English Dub/s Goku sucks, they take away a lot of his personality and just add lines that go hard, but thats it, its cool but it adds nothing to the original.
nope he doesn't get enough hate.
neither do you
@@a-randomdude-on-the-internetnot an argument
@@Randomaccount9470 who invited you bro
@@Randomaccount9470 who is lil bro?
Agreed dude, they ate blinded by nostalgia
5:50 I hate this argument
He did not know that
It's a coincidence
And what if someone like Frieza from another universe won it?
9:38 problem isn't him making mistakes
It's him not learning from them
Watch OG dragon ball
King piccolo saga he kept learning
From his past and managed to grow from it
Sorry i have disrespectfully disagree. Super goku didnt know what meditation was. Akira's goku literally mediates in his training. And goku has moments IN the manga of him being mature. Like when he realized gohan was scared of cell and was going to step in. Or when he was regretful about trying to kill frieza. Not just showing emotions by getting angry like z. Or when goku instantly saw through vegeta's lies when he spoke about why he let babidi controlled him. Super goku would be like "uhh i dont really get it but i just gotta fight you right?" Get outta here
for the meditation part it was a mistranslation/misinterpretation, that part was actually him surprised that Vegeta even knows whats a meditation is, so ya can thank the localizers for that one
@Notaro_D_Ryogami I heard that it was changed after they realized their mistake
Eh agree with some of your points but overall disagree. You say read the manga but then gloss over a bunch of moments. For example while he did want to fihgt kid buu in the manga he goes straight for the kill not wasting time, then after realizing he couldn't win, he lame to that he was trying to look cool in front of vegeta and shouldn't have destroyed the potara. He is learning his lesson and wasn't, asking decisions off of selfish desire.
Well you're taking action he did later to justify his actions from earlier which is dumb because he still makes the same mistake twice. Bro prioritizes "looking cool in front of vegeta" over the death of his literal entire family and the earth according to your arguement
In the end no matter what happens...no matter what you or me, or literally ANYONE else that did research says....the old saying will always stand for most of the other "fans"
"Dont mess with us Dragon Ball fans, we havent watched our own show"
Perhaps that's true, but im still gonna try
@@superkamijacob good luck 👍
9:16 JUICEBOX REFERENCED!!!!!! 🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥💯💯💯💯💯🧃🧃🧃🧃
Omg I found a SMART DRAGON BALL FAN!!!!!
🧠
Goku giving cell a sensu bean isn’t that dumb when you take into account that every villian Goku has fought made the planet a hostage when they got backed into a corner which is what cell ends up doing.
Yall acting like goku wasn’t spending time with his son before the cell games and in the buu saga
Sorry but I just don't agree with ya
And u are entitled to ur own opinion
You underestimate how bad the meditation scene really is because in comparison to DBZ goku sees Vageta and knows whether he's meditating or not when he is on the rock, and the Vageta scene in Z is more important than him just being arrogant, its telling Vageta to not overwork one's muscles when he was going into the chamber again which now in the scene which is telling Goku not to do, not to mention his db training. There is a far better barbaric strong monster right next to them ahem BROLY who can learn so much more from this than the guy who we saw multiple times do this. I also dislike super gokus mannerisms like the kiss thing when he literally kissed Chichi in Z or the way he talks like a 3-year-old and feels like he doesn't know what's happening. Like his line where he's training with krillian in Super and gets annoyed when he's restricted and bumbed out he cant transform and I feel like Z Goku or I guess Goku in general would enjoy a challenge like that. I will give you this he does have a smart scene like him convincing Freiza to join the tournament very good smart Goku scene there. Overall I do agree that Goku has always been prideful of his strength and I do like that of him but his mannerisms are annoying to me in super. This is a pretty good video and argument for Super Goku. I definitely disagree with the bad father argument that everyone gives Goku since he has repeatedly shown to care for his sons (ahem buu saga sucks). The Buu saga is very very flawed compared to the rest of the saga and is a downward spiral when looking at it. Senzu Bean is less bad than people think since he was technically right Gohan completely shits on cell and he makes up for it by sacrificing himself. Another stupid super Goku scene is literally in the manga where he gets UI by remembering he is a martial artist and another far worse Senzu Bean scene.
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO ACUALLY UNDERSTANDS DRAGON BALL!!!!
Bro you don't get the point. Goku by the end of the original dragon ball I'd say is supposed to be an experienced fighter, and in all of Z you can clearly see it (even when he makes mistakes). In super they dumbed him down and now he suddenly has a problem with not keeping his guard up or doesn't understand meditating. There are also stupid shit like not knowing what a kiss is despite having 2 kids. In Z he was an adult even if he was a bit goofy sometimes and did make mistakes, in super he is like a child who is mature for his age. Those two types seem similar but give off very different vibes.
Also the fights in Super are pretty well thought out. Got to give props to Toei. I especially like the Black saga how Trunks and Zamasu are weaker than Goku, Vegeta and Black and it shows during the fights and it stays pretty consistent. When Goku got pissed and started beating the crap out of Black and Zamasu, Goku mostly kept Zamasu out of the way and fought Black hand to hand because he knew the former is immortal, but weaker, and the latter is a lot stronger.
As someone who actually watched through all of Dragon Ball, Z (not kai) and Super for the first time in their lives this year, I think you're right. I'd heard horror stories about how bad Goku was in Super, and while I will fully admit to preferring him in Z overall, he wasn't anywhere near as bad as I had been led on to believe over the last few years.
Fr, people been blowing shit so outta proportion
This man does not understand Z goku 😭😭
Wanna give a rebuttal?
As much as I hate to admit it, you have valid points.
I just don't like some of the jokes that make goku seem dumb
(mainly the kissing thing)
That was a translation error, Goku in the Sub was commenting on Trunks mama birding Mai and Vegeta thought that Goku was referring to a kiss, leaving Goku thoroughly confused, I mean we literally see him kiss Chi Chi in the forehead in the anime.
Ay ill take it
@ Nice vid btw, it’s really disappointing how people still hate on Goku’s character.
Thank u :)
Goku has always been dumb(to a degree) But not where fighting is concerned.
Personally, I Enjoy the Z Movie Version or Daima Goku(If we even count Daima.) but this is definitely an Eye-Opener
Still waiting on Daima to come out fully personally