As a person who loves to build and tinker with 3D printers and has recently built a Rook 180, I would say the joy of seeing the printer you built yourself print parts is priceless.
As a 350xx350 V2.4 owner, the best upgrades for me were the CNC tap, annex engineering panel clips, and the nevermore v6 mods. Actually glad I went voron over Bambu personally. I am not a fan of cloud printing or having to relinquish my ownership of my prints to a company just to print. Besides I love having the ability to change colors and upgrades at my will
I prefer my Voron 2.4 over X1C mostly because of the noise as I work in the same room. About cloud printing, you can run Bambu machines in LAN-only mode. But yeah if you love modding printers V2.4 is amazing, I am looking forward to making upgrades.
Lan only mode seems like a cop-out to me. It's gotten a bit better but you still lose features that you paid for just because you don't want all of your print data and camera feed collected to be used by Bambu and whoever else they decide to hand it over to. Also, if I understand correctly, you have to connect to the cloud to update the printer firmware. I don't trust that as soon as it gets reconnected that it won't send the entire available backlog of print data straight back to their servers.
Apples and oranges. I have both. You don’t need the cloud to print and I thought that was common knowledge by now. 🤷🏻♂️ Bambu has no access to my intellectual property or data. Bambu printers are for people that want to make and sell things, and for people that have no skills at manually dialing in a printer. Voron is for the pure hobbyist. I just added the K1 max to the arsenal too.
I admit to preferring the Duo V5, just seems like it assembles better than the V6. Maybe I just need some more dialing in on my printer, but especially the carbon part that weird sliding panel did not seem to like sliding.
As a Voron owner, as I see it Voron is for people who are into the the engineering and customisation of the printer, rather than other printers which are more for out of the box printing. I love that all the Voron designs are available to download and re-engineer ourselves, I've made new parts for my specific needs and contributed redesigned parts to the published design, something you couldnt do on mass produced printers.
@@williamluong7743 That entirely depends on what you use within the frame. You can totally and perfectly throw a speed setup into a Voron. You can even reengineer it to use ball screws on the Z-axis instead of belts for greater precision. It's an Open Source system. You aren't forced to use the parts that the manual lists. Voron 2.4 uses the CoreXY framework, just like MirageC's high speed HevORT printer does. The CoreXY is proven as an effective, precise platform for high speed printing. How you choose to build it is entirely up to you.
For me it is "Do you mind doing some tinkering and configuring". If so then you get a printer that is truly yours, you can upgrade it. You'll never run out of parts as it's all off the shelf and printable.
Great review, good comparisons. I own a voron trident and the main reason I chose it over the bambu was that I didnt mind building it and I prefer open source. DIY printers are the way to go if building it isnt a issue
I would agree to all except that the DIY printers are the way. For myself, yes. But others don't want any tinkering whatsoever. I am happy that those people finally have a good choice as 3d printing is awesome.
@@PrintingPerspectivelol. X1c looks like diy when you start having problems. Just changing a warped bed feels like assembling one from the scratch. And there are many people who got it and funding out that it involves a good amount of tinkering if you want your prints to be actually good. And if their printers would be actually like the way ccp bl advertising then support would not be so slow. 7 days and still waiting for the response. Stupid me fell for their lies.
Paused at 30 seconds to say this: FINALLY, THANK YOU! Thank you for doing an apples to apples comparison, and not a X1C vs Prusa (or any other bed slinger).
It’s apples to oranges. Bambu is a printer made for manufacturers and noobs. Vorons are for hobbyist. If I was building a farm, I would go with Bambu and not Voron. As a hobby, Voron all the way. So looking at it that way it’s apples and oranges to me.
The angles from which you can compare these two are multiple. From a consumer perspective I think Bambu vs. Prusa is a closer apples-to-apples, as both offer an experience where you buy a pre-buillt printer, join their ecosystem and get started printing stuff. From that perspective, a Voron is total nonsense to compare as you get a box of parts that require you to either print, or acquire a lot of additional printed parts and that'll take weeks to put together and possibly months to tune. From a technological or price perspective, yes the Vorons are closer to Bambulab in that they are both fully enclosed CoreXY printers, capably of printiing up to at least 300C. A Voron Trident would probably be an even better comparison as they both have the gantry fixed and a moving bed. Both comparisons are valid and valuable. Which one you value most in your purchasing decision is completely upt to you.
You know what would be AMAZING? A print files list showing what files are needed for what setups. Like ... If I want to use a fysetc 350 kit and go straight to a stealthburner with a carbon fiber tap setup knowing what parts I need to preprint would be amazing.
I have both and they fill different roles! But once you build a Voron you now can go with anything! Any and every problem that you can have you can now fix! This is what I think the biggest value of building a voron is!
I agree. I need a new printer to replace my Ender 3 Pro and I'm looking at building a Voron 2.4 as a replacement. I've already done multiple mods on my old E3Pro (including swapping out the mainboard for a Manta M8P, which also required me to completely reengineer the electronics enclosure), but there's only so much you can do to a Cartesian printer. I want greater quality at higher speeds, so it's time to go for a CoreXY frame and the Voron looks preferable design wise over the HevORT. I'll probably swap out the z-axis belts for ball screws though. Throw on an Oldham Coupler for ball screws and all wobble on Z should be gone
@@ogpennywiseAsa prints perfect on my x1c and my k1 max it’s 50/50. But on x1c Asa has no stringing and it is pretty smooth. What issues are you having?
Voron 2.4 is a slightly flawed design (Overconstrained gantry, not ideal kinematics for its size). The Voron Trident is: Cheaper than a 2.4 Less Complex than a 2.4 Better Kinematics than a 2.4 More reliable than a 2.4 Flying gantry CoreXY only starts to make sense for above 500mm^2 bed sizes.
To get a bit more detail on the voron, you can choose to use a less aggressive input shaper method. I have found I can get even better results than on my bambu printers. The stealthburner toolhead does have pretty poor cooling. Look into the mantis or XOL toolhead for better cooling if you want to print a lot of small PLA pieces
@@Flumphinatortrue, I stopped buying PLA in 2017 and I ain't bout to go back. Abs is just...better. in just about every way I care about it's better. Lol.
I print almost everything in ASA. If you need better part cooling for stealth burner. I recommend the CPAP mod. If you have a bed on a z-axis, a 120mm or 200mm side mounted part cooler.
i own a P1S and i love it - great workhorse. But i also built a "voronized" Ender 5 with the MercuryOne Mod, rocking a modified Stealthburner with a Rapido UHF and a 0.6mm CHT Volcano nozzle, that can put out 50mm³/s without breaking a sweat. Thats 250mm/s at 0.3mm layer height and 0.7mm line width. The max - before you can notice underextrusion - i was able to reach (with ABS) was 68mm³/s, which is totally bonkers. Another thing i love is the freedom of customization. Since everything is open source with Fusion files for anything i can mod the crap out of every tiny detail - something the Bambu printers can't offer you.
I think this is a very cool showcase of the most hyped printers of both ways of 3d printing: A printer as the hobby or the printer as a tool. Owner of a 2.4 though😂
To be honest, you would have been better using the LDO Voron kit for comparison as that's the officially mandated kit. Anything else is a bit variable in quality. My Formbot works well but it a more budget kit.
Formbot works great despite the budget. Where it falls short is the longevity of some parts such as the xy wire loom that often breaks wires from fatigue, clockwork bearings going bust at around 500 hours of print time, and questionable bondtech gears that may not be genuine.
For me the most important thing is: There is totally freedom, no specific eco-system like on other printers. you can use what Firmware you want, use what slicer you want, purchase spareparts what and from where you want, no need to use a chinese cloud service and so on
Im getting an X1C, even though I love modding and tuning printers and have 3 ender 3 pros ive spent way too much money on all running klipper with input shaping and other goodies I just want a fast printer that I never have to mess with and just prints well.
As a Voron user I can say that quality factors and usability are not on the same scale. Bambulabs are more relatable to a Prusa than a Voron and DYI projects are standalone. You did a good job but a 1k kit can’t compare to “pro” kits or self sourced builds and has to be said. If you’re willing to spend 3-5 grands and spend al lot in implementing your logics and macros you will end with a printer going almost twice as fast as a Bambu capable of high temp materials with restricted thermal expansion. But as soon as you start with cnc aluminum parts, grade 1 titanium backers, hywin rails etc the law of diminishing returns strikes. TLDR: Vorons/Ratrigs/Vzbot etc.. DIY printers can and will perform better than any bambulab but require skills, money, time and expertise, you sum it well saying “if you just wanna print go bambu” but is not like building a Prusa kit, is more like building your own machine from scrap like in 2015 and compiling your logics to make the printer run.
I'd say it depends. BambuLab X1C uses the same framework as the Voron printers does. Comparing an X1C to a Prusa may be sensible performance wise, but framework wise you're comparing a CoreXY to a Cartesian and Cartesians are known to perform worse than CoreXY.
@@AdventurePrinting Not exactly no. At the present moment there's nothing but personal opinions here. If you know that you are correct, I am sure you have the links to back it up?
@@Arterexius “Bambulabs uses the same framework as the Voron does” is factually false. This means you know nothing about the argument. If you think that the trident (just one of the Voron design has the same kinematics of an X1C that’s delusional.
@@AdventurePrinting Additionally, what's actually delusional, is your inability to understand what *Open Source* truly is, given that you apparently believe that anything that builds on Open Source systems, must be identical copies.
I would love to see a Voron build which uses 40x40mm heavy extrusions and/or fully solid milled aluminum parts to reduce vibration and ghosting in the prints and improve rigidity.
Input shaping can "smooth out" smaller details at more aggressive settings, which could be why the V2 wasn't as good at producing those details than the X1C. Be interesting to see the input shaping settings for each printer was and how much of a difference that makes
Yup, I would fully agree with this. AMS makes you lazy lol. It is that good. One just works and other things can be fun tinkering with. Both is good for a right person.
Only disadvantage of bamboo in terms of multi-material printing is that you can't install toolchanger or second head for idex on it If you only need multi color printing with the same material, it's pretty well integrated solution
@@shadyb On how many printers can you install a toolchanger or a second toolhead? Bambus goal wasn't to make the ultimate printer, it was to make a very good printer for a good price for the most usecases. Many people, including me, use the AMS mainly as a storage to be able to just print with different filaments without having to actually change it.
I know the voron guys dont all freak out that their machines will be obsoleted everytime an update gets announced. To me this is a huge advantage to foss. I really hope we dont see printer grave yards
Don't check only ringing on the accel tuning tower, but also at which height (acceleration) the gap widens. As I mentioned elsewhere, the X1C shows quite some smoothing in sharp corners due to excessive input shaper, so the V2.4 may still be the better one overall even if the prints from X1C are INCREDIBLY (I admit that) smooth.
I've built so many printers and spent countless nights building firmware and tuning. I bought a bambu and print via microsd and have never connected it to the Internet. I finally realized the beauty of plug and play.
Correct me if I’m wrong but after the printer is built and working as you want… there should be nothing left to do but use it…? I mean that’s the way both my vorons are…
There is no such thing as the Voron. Its your individual Voron, you build and modify it to your liking. The way of building and modifying is the goal. Everything about Voron is open source, no vendor lock in.
But until bambu labs makes a larger printer it’s just the voron that could do this well at this size, I’m building a 300 kit (would’ve loved a 350 but too large to fly to the uk) to make some parts in one piece
A few things about the comparison: Voron teams goals are about off the shelf part availability and long term reliability. Speed is nowhere in their mission statement. They were also designed to be self sourced with high quality materials, not purchased in a kit meant to cut as many corners as they can get away with. This doesn't invalidate any comparison, just worth understanding.
Yes, I am aware of that and that's amazing. And even despite that they still provide quality prints at higher speeds. I need to go more into DIY printers, I already miss building it. F... it is addicting haha!
I don't understand this. You say the point is not speed, but also that the point is to build it with high quality parts...what could the benefit of those parts possibly be besides speed? Precision? Even an Ender prints pretty much as precisely as FDM will go. Sounds an awful lot like "we are using fancy parts for no reason". If you're gonna spend that kind of money, an Annex is actually fast. Everything is still "off the shelf" as you say...all these parts are standard on any printer...bearings, idlers, pulleys, rails...what could possibly be "not off the shelf"? Honestly, I think the actual Voron goal is "coolness". Which, fine, but it's not for me...not at that price. I want performance.
@geometerfpv2804 I didn't say I agree with the goals or that voron is ideal. I only clarified vorons stated goals and what they did to achieve them. Weather you agree with the goals, what they succeeded, etc, is an entirely different discussion.
I just found this video, but I think there is something to building and tuning a 3D printer that is in itself rewarding. The Bambu is better, but the Voron will become your own and you can take a little pride in that. It's like building a hot rod, it doesn't need to be better, it was the journey that made it fun.
Both amazing and revolutionising products, anyway i would also consider a ratrig if i was on the market for a good 3d printer. I feel like it is positioned in the middle of those two in terms of software, hardware and personalizzation. Anyway they are all amaziong products quality wise and the choice should depend only on the specific personal needs.
THIS! These two printers are for completely different markets. It is not black and white, like one is good other is bad. I don't get why people take a stance for one or another. It is so crazy for me. It always depends on the buyer's needs. But if anyone is in between those two markets this is the video with the performance of both.
I'd say a voron is about 50 hours less good than the x1c to account for the build time. However, it is infinitely better if understanding how these machines work is worth learning.
I just finished my third Voron. Already had 2 V2.4 and went for a Trident this time. I May get a Bambu sometime in the future IF it proves it's that better than a K1 that justifies costing more than twice the price.
Nice, I want to make more Vorons too. :) Where I live P1S (€749 / $785) costs ~18% more compared to K1 (€540 / $565). Maybe you looked at the P1S + AMS combo price? Creality has quite decent hardware, and the printer is nice, but the software/firmware is far from Bambu printers. K1's bed leveling is average at best and the heatbed doesn't even use the PID control method, but rather ancient BANG-BANG which makes layers look horrible. If K1 had a stock Klipper where you could easily fix all the things Creality broke and add new features it would be actually a great choice for people who have knowledge of Klipper. But now they don't fully know what they are doing and they are not letting people who understand things easily fix their printers, lol. That is my main issue with the K1 series printers. :D I need just to root it instead of waiting for Creality to fix things... :/
The real difference between the two is Build Volume, and Color. Voron is going to be able to build a bigger object, with the 350mm version giving you a very large build area with only a handful of other printers out there being bigger, but also slower. The X1C has its 4 color AMS allowing you to print, literally IN COLOR for your print, and while it will slow the print down because it has to purge between changes. The fact you CAN natively print something in color is amazing. Another good plus is its build volume isn't too shabby either (256mm) vs other printers. Both printers can do 500mm speeds, Voron needs a lot of programming to do it, while the X1 does it right out of the box. As far as I know the Pallet 3 (can use 8 colors) wouldn't be able to keep up with the speed of the Voron, much less be able to use its software needed to set purge towers ect for changing the color as it does need to plug in to USB on the printer.
I own multiple Vorons and the Bambu Lab X1C w/ AMS. I am VERY experienced in building, designing, and modding printers. It is two completely different philosophies. Not really comparable. One is you get what you get. Jack of all trades and master of none. Want it to do X, maybe it is possible, maybe note, because proprietary. The other is as good as the effort you put into it. You want it to be able to do X, you can do that if you put in the effort. Also once you can print ABS reliably there is no point in PLA anymore. Its only good quality is you can print it on cheap printers. That is the only reason it is popular. If the melt temp isn't an issue PLAs problem with conforming to stress is. Makes it terrible for almost all functional parts. Hope you are into printing useless nicknacks. Get a resin printer and an air brush for that stuff. Also the key to high quality fast prints is stupid slow external walls first and stupid fast internals last. Where the quality does not matter as long as you can push the plastic fast enough. Do that right and you can even read the "3D Benchy" on the back of the model :)... and you will start running into the limitations of stepper motors and there resonance frequencies.
I may be going with klicky probe instead of the TAP to reduce toolhead wight. Do some CPAP cooling for part cooling. I will also run the CAN bus board to make life more simple and reduce the X gantry weight because of not having the cable chain and all the cables inside that chain.
I went for klicky. Works well. I am not sure I understand the hype around TAP. It adds weight, seems to be problematic for toolhead rigidity and not to forget, your measuring reliability is suddenly getting a new problem which is oozing.
@@sagichnicht6748my X1C has a PETG bulge problem. Clicky sound like it would be fine for me. Plus I’m doing the ERCF system with a blob purge system. So the hotend will only heat up just before it start to go
stealthburner is a reshape of the old abbn toolhead which is several years old and a dated design underneath. its not a very good toolhead on modern diy standards- its heavy, clunky, bad resonance performance, and poor cooling. its better than the old afterburner but its not a competitive toolhead in modern designs. tap is not an upgrade, its a downgrade and depending on what parts you use to build a tap setup, it will introduce a tremendous amount of printer problems in terms of surface quality. tap cuts resonance/ringing performance essentially in half at the expense of convenience of not using a probe, a problem that wasnt a problem. want a good voron? run a good, light toolhead like mantis, xol, or archetype. half the weight and +50% - 350% more cooling at the same time. run a good probe like a klicky or a beacon. you'll have much more control and quality on the printer over the bambu on this case. if you take the recommended shaper from those charts instead of doing it manually and tuning to mzv, you' will get tremendous ringing on your voron because 3 hump is meant to specify for both 3 spikes, and a high bandwidth, high smoothing setup that will also screw all your parts up. the move would be to increase your belt tension and use better quality and higher preload linear rails, to get narrower spikes, so that the shaper curve covers the whole spike. you can set your shaper curve to the apex of the curve, but then set your max accel below anywhere that isnt covered by the shaper curve. given that you have a slope almost from the start, you're going to have ringing albeit suppressed, along the entire curve. this is a tuning problem, and a problem with your particular kit and particular build, not the printer design. kits use shit rails and this is a big impact too. most kits use zf rails with basicaly no preload, which is way too sloppy. should note, i was a day 1 x1c+ams kickstarter, and i have multiple vorons and have been in the voron community since 2021. both are great machines, but the voron is going to be highly dependent on how you build it.
great video. please can you clarify what the zhop test was trying to show? Is it that printers might not return to the correct z height after a hop, hence inconsistency in layer lines? thanks
Yes, you're correct. In almost all cases a printer will never return into the exact previous spot, so the test show how consistently it can do z hops. Inconsistent extrusion or any other related variables can also negatively impact results, so you need to test for those first.
The Voron 2.4 is quite expensive when you use good quality components. When you have a Voron build with lower gade components (like mine) the printer is not that fast and not reliable enough for big prints and you spend quite a lot time on troubleshooting and repairing. The BambuLab X1 carbon is comparable in price and just prints fast and reliable. I sold mine and replaced it with a Prusa XL. A very sturdy and reliable machine with multiple tool heads instead of a filament changer. Not as fast as a Voron 2.4, but capable of printing 24/7 without any issue.
When I think of building a Voron, I'm intimidated. Everything could go wrong. And I've read about seasoned printer builders get called idiots by Voron fanatics. It does not make me want to take that leap. I really want to build one and put in the work. I keep coming back to Vorons. It's what my nerd heart wants but my knowledge is lacking. It's frustrating. I love 3d design and printing. But what I love more is learning how 3d printers work and how to solve problems.
I'm finishing my 3rd Core XY Voron and I'm still intimidated. More relating to the different mods available and the config changes for each of them. I've also historically messed up my bed plates the first time I print something, lol. The discord or FB groups may have some less than helpful folks, but there are still a ton of great people to help if you need it.
I was a Kickstarter X1C/AMS backer. I've had NOTHING but problems. My printer will only print on the cool plate. Initially, bambu said it was due to firmware, and it would be fixed with updates. Now over a year later and like 20 Textured and smooth PEI plates. It still wont adhere to any of them. I have been begging Bambu for help the entire time. I always got canned responses to slow down speeds and dont raise the bed temps to over 65c (I never did). Finally after a year, and sending dozens (hundreds?) of support messages along with printer logs, they said they're going to send me a new bed. I don't know what they found in these logs that were different in the dozens (hundreds?) of other logs. I just hope this gets my printer working. I purchased a qudi 3 max and love it. I'm really thinking about building a voron next.
Interesting. I too am a KS backer with 3700+ hours printing on the X1CC. I have tried cool/black pei/peo/engineering plate and zero issues with sticking. So you have a video up? Maybe I can help.
@@ashleys3dprintshop I am totally stuck atm. My KS printer was different from their guide. Biggest being the right side panel, the guide shows only 11 screws, but mine had 14. So When I tried to pull the panel off it broke some screw connectors. I can get that back on as they obviously did away with those connections in later revisions, but it sucks they broke. However, they glued the hotbed connector sensor wire to the pcb. I cannot get it off without risking the integrity of the entire board (I've pulled hard and tried to pry it off with tweezers). At this point I'm out a printer. I've been messaging them non stop for a week asking how to proceed and they've gone completely radio silent. I can certainly document everything (already have for them), and email you.
I too have built a v2.4. Personally i see the trident as the superior choice. The fixed gantry allows for auxiliary fans, poop opening for mmu printing, you can reinforce the fram with braces, in built volume filament storage as well as secondary use as dry box (spool under bed). Also the trident actually reaches the advertised z height, the v2 is most of the time around 40mm too short, the reverse bowden would be bent otherwise. I agree with you, the stealthburner isn't that great for pla, you may want to look at the mantis toolhead, but keep in mind that the two front corners cant be reached. The config is truly bare bones, not even a bed mesh is configured, although the stock inductive probe is heavily influenced by ambient temperature, so they skipped it. There are ways to counter thermal expansion, you can install backer or cheapo rails on y, so your two y axis beams won't form a banana and for x you could use a carbon beam, simon from vez3d test thermal deformation with an aluminium beam and carbon fiber beam, the carbon one did only deform around 0,1mm, lightweight aluminium beam was 0,6 or more. As for heatsoaking, im skipping that, even though i have the larger 350mm version. First layer was excellent and sticks most of the time too well. The only noticeable defect i get from that is you can see the x axis bending, but i plan on fixing that with a carbon x beam As always great informative video, im just a bit disappointed that the v2.4 always get the spotlight while the trident is the forgotten child
Agree. Flying gantry is cool, but less performant. The only reason you'd need it is if you have a stupid heavy bed in the case of a massive build volume. Doesn't make sense at 2.4 typical sizes.
@@geometerfpv2804 yep, mostly cool factor. Not even sure if you save a noticeable amount of money since the 80t pulleys are hard to get. For heavy beds, you can still use ball screws and at the size you need ball screws, you can definitely afford them.
Honestly I wanted the heated volume to be more controllable, and with the trident the bed moving makes it much harder to precisely control air movement inside the enclosure to heat/cool as needed and not overheat for twitchy or experimental materials. Also heat control is the key to maximum strength for plastic FDM parts... And strength matters to me because I mostly print for component parts that tend to have at least somewhat structural use. The trident was the cheaper kit, but I needed the 2.4. also the extra z axis height...100mm makes a difference for automotive parts. ^_^
@@NeoIsrafil you didn't gain 100mm in, you gained only 60mm. Try to move your toolhead to z300 and have a look at the reverse bowden. You can only achieve the for 350mm without a direct drive as the v2 was originally designed around a bowden setup and had two ramps boards. As far as temperature control goes, a chamber heater might not be needed. In the summer i reached over 60 to 65c with passive heating (record was 68, ebb cpu was reporting 90c cpu temperature), although i should add that the room was over 30c, its a conservatory with three sides of glass. As for temperature control, im not sure how the z axis movement should disturb the temperature control. The qidi x plus 3 and max 3 have also a chamber heater, but that one is in the bottom corner, probably so the freshly printed part wont be hit with a hot air gun or so. Also most industrial high temp printers have the bed as z axis and i would expect them to know more about printing at elevated temperatures than us two hobbyists
And if the X1 eats it’s pcbs again, like they like to do, speaking from experience, you’re screwed and can’t fix it yourself. You’re alway in need of a backup machine. My X1 is down for weeks again. I’m grateful for my solid Ender fleet to take over.
I have been using mine over a month and I didn't even had a single problem (knocking on wood). How long you have been using yours? What problems you encountered?
@@PrintingPerspective 1 year. And it’s already a replacement unit. There have been plenty of issues besides the total electronic breakdown. The hms causes more issues than it solves, especially with False alerts. The mechanics is fixable, but not electronics and firmware. Actually my current unit has probably been bricked by a firmware update, which is of course not reverseable. You’re dependent of the support which still isn’t staffed enough.
This is the main reason not to go with a X1 imo, your totally locked into relying on Bamboolabs for replacement parts and whatever quality control they have. At least with a Voron you could swap parts to something else if you found they break often.
I've built different 3D printers, from kits and from parts I sourced myself like the Willson 2 I build, designed by Martin Rice, I change it from Marlin to Klipper but Now I need to move on from tinkering to just print and design so my next printer is going to be a Bambulab, I know Vorons are great but I don't have the time for building one, also for the price you can't beat a bambulab with the AMS. One thing it makes bambu printers so good is the precision in the frame and the light weight X axis which allows fast speed without much ringing, I build a Kit 8 years ago, the creality 7 a tiny printer 120x120mm, it was slow but the print quality was even better that the one for bambulab and the reason is x and y axes were supper light weight. you cant beat the laws of physics jus with software compensations, if you want quality go slow and light and the Vorons to me are on the heavy side.
They are not comparable in human sense. I have p1p and waiting for my Voron kit (siboor). Bambu is the choice that can't go wrong. Bambu as good as stock commercial product could be. But Voron completely different beast. For me, half of it's price is just opportunity to build it. If you can't enjoy this process - it's not for you. I don't know what I'll get at the end, but having Bambu in mind and all the mods available and vision how it must look like - I have great goal and optimism to achieve it. And enjoy the process. So, just choose wise: whether you want best result possible out of box for a fixed price or you want to achieve your own vision on implementation and enjoy the process
Inspired by this video, I rebuilt my Voron 2.4 and switched from Revo Voron to a Bambulab hotend (the TZ 2.0 + CHT clone). It works great. But it's so fast heating that the Klipper PID_CALIBRATE didn't find so good PID parameters. The temp fluctuates so much that I have to wait a while until prints start. Have you found some good PID parameters?
I never liked Klipper's PID tuning, I feel like Marlin had so much more precise control. If you tune to the printing temp, at least mine fluctuates only max of -1 to +1 degrees. It is a powerful heater with a low thermal mass of the heatblock. What you can do is add this code that replaces M109 (wait for hotend temp). It still waits for the set temp with M104 but it doesn't wait for temperatures to stabilize. The code is from the Ellis Print Tuning Guide. [gcode_macro M109] rename_existing: M99109 gcode: #Parameters {% set s = params.S|float %} M104 {% for p in params %}{'%s%s' % (p, params[p])}{% endfor %} ; Set hotend temp {% if s != 0 %} TEMPERATURE_WAIT SENSOR=extruder MINIMUM={s} MAXIMUM={s+1} ; Wait for hotend temp (within 1 degree) {% endif %}
Thank you @@PrintingPerspective. This is an alternative. But what PID params do you actually use now for your Stealthburner with TZ2.0 hotend? I experimented with the parameters and found a setting (pid_kp = 8.5, pid_ki = 2.62, pid_kd = 22.0) which starts with an overshot but is very stable after that.
Google and read up on the theory. Don't just use other people's numbers. You need the means to. plot temperature over time. Start with I and D at zero and keep making P larger until you get oscillation, then back off. There is more but that is what Googler is for. Basically, you need a systematic approach, not just trying some numbers. PID tuning is a big field and is used for "everything from heating to electric motor control. It was invented for steering ships at sea, so there is. aton of theory out there to read.
why do you need filament load and unload macros? - filament load - heat up the hotend beyond the melting point of the plastic that's in it, unlock the extruder, pull the old filament out, insert the new filament, pushing it through the hotend until it comes out, lock the extruder. done. the only macro you really need is the integrated one that's "heat hotend for pla or abs depending on what filament you're printing with.
Love the look of voron printers,but all the building and mods you need to do scrambled my mind. If i had more time in my daily life maybe i could learn but its not a reality for me. So i went with a x1c and i am happy.
The 2.4 is not as fast, however what it is not in speed its not slow either, and to be honest after owning a few 2.4's, Tridents and now an X1C, they one thing they have on the X1C is far superior quality of prints and quiet operation. I have gotten passable prints on the X1C but not quality prints, mostly due to the motion system and FVA lines on the X axis which if you do your homework and read up on it, is super common on both X and P series Bambu printers. However my go to is my X1C for general prints. For absolute quality prints my 2.4 and Trident. For draft prints my X1C and Sovol Sv06 (which is almost a switchwire now)....
its a machined metal part, it holds your toolhead and also acts as the probe, its what lets your toolhead go up and down 1mm or so without breaking things or scratching beds
The Sovol SV08 is the best of both worlds Voron 2.4 variant with a good out of the box experience And, there is a mod you can use to use regular Bambu nozzles :)
As a small company with around 35 printers of different brands, we are now shifting some of our printers to Bambulabs. Time is money and we don't want our team to work on building machines that will pay for themselves in a couple of weeks time. We just get the good printers then dial our own settings and start producing products.
The time spent building our machines was easily worth it when we integrated our Klipper machines with our central business systems. It all depends on the way you look at things. For us a well documented API, readily available open market parts and having people learn the skills of building and maintaining a printer easily beat the convenience of the closed, proprietary plug and play solution (even if our test printers we had from bambu hadn't been such a nuisance)
@@CGMediaUK You missed the point, mate. Please read carefully. It's not about reliability, but rather maintenance and cost. Voron 2.4 parts are much more expensive, and any maintenance task-which is inevitable for any printer with heavy usage-takes hours on the 2.4. We have both, and while we print a lot on them, we avoid using our Vorons whenever possible, exactly for this reason.
@@axelSixtySix Voron parts are more expensive because theyre better designed and higher quality, after all the corexy bambu printers are just voron legacy with a few minor modifications, an 8 year old design
@@CGMediaUK Look, I don’t want to come across as harsh or inconsiderate, but here’s the thing and it’s quite remarkable. Sometimes, you put forth a comment, offer clarifications, and what you get in return are responses rooted in pre-packaged, predetermined ideas, which these individuals hold as immutable truths. They become, in essence, the zealous guardians of something. In this case, it’s Voron. Elsewhere, it might be some other brand of tool, a fishing rod, or a particular travel destination. Now, I’m an engineer by training, and I built my first 3D printer back in 2008. In our print farm, we’ve been running four Voron 2.4 machines for three years now. What I’m sharing here is based on intensive use, albeit less intensive than anticipated, and there’s a reason for that. I’m sorry if this bursts your bubble of Voron enthusiasm, but whether you like it or not, it’s the reality we’re dealing with after nearly 10,000 hours of print time on each of these machines. If you're good at math, you’ll notice they don’t run as frequently as we expected when we invested in them. Some of our Bambu machines have run over 6,700 hours in a single year... So NO, the parts from the Voron project aren’t superior. In fact, they’re unnecessarily complex, simply because 3D printing allows for convoluted designs. Given the limitations of plastic, these printed parts are 20 times weaker than equivalent aluminum parts, which could have been designed in a much more rational way. This unnecessary complexity also permeates the machine’s assembly and construction-something that would never be viable in an industrial setting. And while that doesn’t detract from the technical sophistication or performance of the machine, it’s an important observation from an engineering standpoint. When it comes to 3rd parts' quality, there’s the price-to-replacement-time ratio, which can disqualify many of Voron’s part choices. In other words, if an expensive part doesn’t last significantly longer: like a ruby nozzle or an Obsidian one, you’re better off using a cheaper option that needs replacing just as often. That’s exactly what happens with Bambu Lab’s hardened hotend except that they cost a fraction of the price.. Now, let’s talk about usage, and this is where things take a real turn. What most Voron zealots fail to recognize is that these machines are an absolute nightmare to maintain. Spare me the anecdotes about how you’ve never had to do maintenance or that some overpriced accessory has spared you from it. Either you’re Pinocchio’s long-lost descendant, or you simply print so little that you haven’t faced these issues yet. The real problem with Voron machines, aside from their unnecessarily convoluted design, is that routine maintenance takes an inordinate amount of time compared to better-designed machines. Even something as simple as changing a hotend can take ten to twenty times longer than it would on a more streamlined machine. And don’t even get me started on changing a rail or replacing belts-tasks that can easily consume an entire workday. That’s the fundamental issue with Voron: it’s the maintenance. Feel free to deny it if it offends your sensibilities, but that won’t change the reality of the situation.
The 2.4 is a little bit overengineered but a great machine. But the 0.2 is a printer without real alternative. I just love that thing. It's small fast and reliable. Just spits out abs parts like nothing else in that small of a footprint. You buy a bambu if you want something that works out of box. The vorons are for thinkerers.
I love your videos, you focus on details that are very difficult to hear from many 3D printing UA-camrs. What is your opinion of the Creality K1? I bought it very cheap with the idea of customizing the firmware and hardware to have a silent and precise printer. Do you think this will be possible with the linear rail system? Thank you very much and sorry for my English
Thanks! That is what I am trying to do here! :) I still testing K1, I think it is better than most people would think at first, but it still has issues. About the fans, they are insanely loud but they also push a lot of air. So I feel like you have to slow them down as much as you can. You can fine-tune them to find a cooling/noise sweet spot with my overhand test print if you are printing PLA. When printing ABS it is not that loud, Bambu is definitely more irritating if you are in the same room. About the motion system, you can't escape the reality that it will make noise at higher speeds. Also, a good idea would be to use foam tape like on Vorons to reduce vibrations on those side panels as they can act as loudspeakers.
@@PrintingPerspective brilliant! I will apply your ideas. The truth is, I think that the Creality K1 is a printer that offers hardware for a price that is impossible to find in any other way. I think it is a cheap printer with great potential, just like the Kingroon KP3S. Thank you for your words
Grrr, no you didn't help me make the choice :). I am in the process of switching from a Creality CR6-SE to a corexy. The Voron V2.4 and Bambu lab X1C or P1S are highest on the list. I am a tinkerer but for the foreseeable future will be very busy with work... So yes 2 years ago the Voron was a no brainer for me, now I might "have to" settle for the X1C or P1S not to end up with a half built printer. Maybe I should wait till the Xmas holidays...
I have the X1C for 4 months now and it's been great. I'm new to 3D printing so it just made sense to go with this one and at the time I didn't even have a clue what a Voron was. I would say the X1C will treat you well for a reliable workhorse and would be a great addition to any fleet. I have since been diving deeper into the whole open source printing aspect as well as fine tuning beyond just using the micro LiDAR for the Ai hassle free printing to get better quality from the printer. I will eventually venture into making a large coreXY like the Voron or potentially the VZBot AWD but I will definitely keep the X1C around for its ease of send it and just get what I need from it. I feel like Voron or any DIY kit shouldn't be your sole printer because some problems can leave you out of the loop until replacement parts arrive or troubleshooting rectifies the potential issues. I also love the fact I can send something to it to test fit at ludicrous speed and refine my models to iron out fitment or design flaws. AMS is also something you need to take into consideration because ATM its basically the easiest and least expensive way to multi color or multi material print. As long as you take care of the X1C it will just do what its meant to from my experience (cleaning and maintenance).
Ahh, well maybe this will help. So the Voron 2.4 is a great printer, but if you never made one it will take A LOT of time. So you kinda have to build it slowly and don't burn out yourself especially if you encounter problems with the build. Then you will actually have fun assembling it. For most people, I feel like it is a long project that you can slowly work on, challenge yourself, and have an insane satisfaction when you finally make it. Meanwhile, Bambu machines are basically I don't care about anything, I just want to print! Take my money! They are loud and nobody knows about true longevity. But the fact that I can buy P1S+AMS for the same price as a cheap Fysetc Voron 2.4 kit that doesn't have the additional upgrades is kind of insane value. Plus you have to print high-quality parts for the Voron in the first place. But also you can order most of them with the Voron PIF program. It is a hard choice.
Just finished building mine last week. Went against the recommendations of just get it working and then mod... I went straight to Tap, Canbus and umbilical.... and to top it off I went with an Octopus Max EZ instead of an Octopus v1.1... so none of my configs applied. That being said, yes, the configs are a bit tedious. But I also made it more difficult than most, but by nature that's what I do LOL. The fact that these things are so extensible is just amazing though. And the cool thing is, once you build it, you can print off spare parts and if something breaks, you are good to go in no time. And the fact you built it, you will get that intimate knowledge of what makes it tick. Invaluable for a machine of this scope. If you go Voron, just remember to take your time. It's not a race. And be sure to use the Voron Discord if you have issues. They are a very helpful community. Watch Nero3D and Steve Builds on UA-cam (they are VoronDesign team memebrs). Mine is a LDO kit, but I borrowed pieces of configs from the LDO and the Magic Phoenix kits (they have configs for tap and the SB2209/2240) and made my own. The whole process has been very satisfying. Orcaslicer has been a dream come true too. :)
I'd like to build a Trident, but pricing honestly holds me back at the moment. I run a small 3D printing business and, while I have a pretty good working knowledge of FDM, I'd like to build a Voron and learn Klipper. But ~$1000 for the Formbot Trident kit (without printed parts) or $1500 for the LDO 2.4r2 kit is a bit much...
The largest Voron 2.4 has a print area 350x350. Rat Rig has a 400x400 and even a 500x500. I don't know of any other printers that large for such a low price.
I wouldn’t recommend a Voron in a print farm. Wonderful machine but you need scalability and if you get a big commission you cannot spend 50+ hs building a Voron requiring a kit and upgrades with undetermined shipping time. You need something like Sovol, Prusa and Bambu that can send you 10 printers in a week.
@@AdventurePrinting As a voron printfarm owner I'd have to disagree (We run tridents and v0.1s). By now we have all the jigs and practice in place to make building easy and the time invested is well spent as far as training people to do a better job in maintenance goes. We also have easy access to eu stock in kits. For us building a trident or building a mk4 hardly makes any difference at this point.
I recently built mine 2.4 350 with Tap and CAN mods and it was somewhat hard to switch between different manuals and it got complicated fast. Luckily I had already helped to build my firend's vanilla 2.4 350, so I had some experience and he helped me as well. I considered a Bambu, but the larger build volume was what I wanted and I'm also not super into the proprietary way of doing things that bambu is doing. That said, there's a difference between having 3D printers as a hobby and 3D printing as a hobby. Personally I loved the experience of building one and I love that it's so easy to mod parts and I have installed a The Filter active carbon filter and webcam. Not everyone wants to go through that ordeal just to 3D print stuff, though.
You learn the ins and outs, how thing were put together. Gives you generally more knowledge and will help when troubleshooting. Also you know what you get for your money
It's kinda like, "My Honda is better than a Porsche - after I replaced the block, crank, rods, head, added a turbo, went with an aftermarket ECU, replaced the transmission gears, upgraded the shocks, springs, brakes, wheels, tires, etc, etc." Sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison, really, as each party is after different things.
Um, not to mention _all_ the upgrades you can go with to fix most of the problems you mentioned. Such as even flatter bed and a kinematic system for thermal expansion, idler shafts instead of bolts/threads, the mods are endless. Also super awesome, it's free and open source, no sketchy Chinese servers with my data on them just to print something. I LOVE my vorons and would never buy a bambu let alone connect it to my network. It's known that stealthburner is not great for PLA/ part cooling - so many will go with XOL if you need insane cooling that would out perform bambu
The 2.4 is my machine, what i mean with this is, if i change a component (say a nozzle) the machine wont care, and will keep printing, the bambulab, well, its their machine, you just bought rhe right to use it (if u change a nozzle with a 3rd part adapter) the machine will notice it and complain about it
people should take notes on your sponsor ad insert. it went right with the content and is the first time i haven't just skipped it. i hate them but well done hope it helped your channel
Is 3D design your primary hobby and you need a TOOL to print your designs? Get a Bambu lab printer. Are 3D printers your main hobby and you like tinkering to make them better (and you have 2-3x the budget)? Build a Voron or RatRig. The Bambu printers out of the box will get you 75-80% of the way to the MAX quality you can push out of a Voron 2.4, and it will already be there 20 minutes after opening the box.
This comparison is flawed in so many areas.... Buys the cheapest kit for a Voron 2.4, when most kits cost double of what the kit shown in this video. Then correctly says that you need some experience building a Voron, but then complain the lack of scripts lol, well that is the point, you are free to customize it as you wish. Then proceeds to evaluate his Voron against a Bambu X1C without considering that this video creator experience will not be the same as the majority of Voron owners with better components. All this to say, that this video is flawed in the sense that it doesn't represent the average Voron build, mostly due to the cheaper kit. As such, it just shows this specific build, which is not surprising to loose in some aspect, which I also suspect being due to poor assembly.
Getting a cheap voron is like buying one of those nigerian DIY lamborghinis. Voron is meant to be a no compromise printer, getting cheap parts ruins the point
i wouldnt have nay other printer than a voron, it is for the people that enjoy building and modding their printers as much (if not more) than actually printing. it is a pretty hard challenge at time and not for the impatuient a all.
100% true. I love it a lot as I like tinker and mod stuff, but it's also nice that there is an option for people that wants none of that and just to print.
@@PrintingPerspective only really a mainboard swap which granted is a pain but you don't have to do that to get a good experience but do for full potential haha
Possibly...contact both companies and get printers sent and run that test. Just make sure the bambu has fire suppression near by incase it decides to start ghost printing on its own in the middle of the night 😊
Tough to say. BL printers run a lot harder on their internal components than Vorons due to higher accelerations and speeds for most setups. The Vorons use printed parts, but honestly they aren't the bottleneck to longevity in my experience. My bearings and belts are usually the first thing to give out after around 1500-2000 print hours. Would be interesting to see, but I'll tell ya from a technician's perspective I'd much rather work on a Voron that's broken than a BL that's broken.
@ferdinandhenkel4567 You have to clean carbon rods on Bambu printers, otherwise, they will act as abrasive dust and the X-axis will fail prematurely. So... you can't be running 24/7 the printer unless you intentionally want the X-axis to fail. :)
@AustinDennis "I'd much rather work on a Voron that's broken than a BL" that is 100% true. Especially if the problem is unknown and you have to figure out what is wrong with a machine in the first place.
Vorons and Bambulab do not even play in the same game. This has nothing to do with which one is better but rather with what they are. Bambulab is a ready out of the box printer for people whose hobby it is to print stuff, fast and well. Vorons can also print fast and well but they are perfect for people whose hobby is the printer itself (and possibly printing or designing stuff on top of it).
People that build vorons actually enjoy the hobby. People that jump straight to bambu just want plastic junk to fill their house up with. Using $5 in fillament to print a $2 toy.
Or, the people who buy a Bambu/Qidi because they want to print functional items and don't want to have to constantly fuck around with a Voron. But keep gatekeeping, I guess.
@@theglowcloud2215 Got any pics of all these functional prints you're making? I had no idea that multicolor was needed for function. It's a printer that won't even let you set offsets to get the dimensions accurate. But keep lying to yourself, I guess.
@@jessie38supercharged No need to be so rude. What's gotten you in such a bad mood? This kind of toxicity is just detrimental to the 3D printing community. "Got any pics" is a pretty weird question to ask in a comments section where you can't post pics or links. Like, what kind of response are you expecting? I use a Bambu X1C to print functional parts, and I don't see myself having the time to build a Voron. I haven't had any issues with dimensional accuracy whatsoever, and the AMS is great as a magazine for your most commonly used filaments. I sometimes use the multi-color function, but not very often. Reality is that the X1C is fantastic for people who want to have a fast 3D printer for making prototype stuff. Vorons are for people who are interested in building a printer.
So if the Bambu Lab printing output quality is better, why buy another that prints worse? (besides print size limitations). I'm a resin printer user looking for an FDM CoreXY, and to me the quality is the most important factor. Imagine buying a TV with very slighty blurred image in some places, versus a regular cristal clear one, and saying that the blurry one is better because you can fix it when it brokes.
As a person who loves to build and tinker with 3D printers and has recently built a Rook 180, I would say the joy of seeing the printer you built yourself print parts is priceless.
Yeah, it is an amazing feeling. :)
As a 350xx350 V2.4 owner, the best upgrades for me were the CNC tap, annex engineering panel clips, and the nevermore v6 mods. Actually glad I went voron over Bambu personally. I am not a fan of cloud printing or having to relinquish my ownership of my prints to a company just to print. Besides I love having the ability to change colors and upgrades at my will
I prefer my Voron 2.4 over X1C mostly because of the noise as I work in the same room. About cloud printing, you can run Bambu machines in LAN-only mode. But yeah if you love modding printers V2.4 is amazing, I am looking forward to making upgrades.
Lan only mode seems like a cop-out to me. It's gotten a bit better but you still lose features that you paid for just because you don't want all of your print data and camera feed collected to be used by Bambu and whoever else they decide to hand it over to. Also, if I understand correctly, you have to connect to the cloud to update the printer firmware. I don't trust that as soon as it gets reconnected that it won't send the entire available backlog of print data straight back to their servers.
Apples and oranges.
I have both.
You don’t need the cloud to print and I thought that was common knowledge by now. 🤷🏻♂️
Bambu has no access to my intellectual property or data.
Bambu printers are for people that want to make and sell things, and for people that have no skills at manually dialing in a printer. Voron is for the pure hobbyist.
I just added the K1 max to the arsenal too.
@@einbit What features do you lose?
I’m not missing anything. 🤷🏻♂️
I admit to preferring the Duo V5, just seems like it assembles better than the V6. Maybe I just need some more dialing in on my printer, but especially the carbon part that weird sliding panel did not seem to like sliding.
As a Voron owner, as I see it Voron is for people who are into the the engineering and customisation of the printer, rather than other printers which are more for out of the box printing. I love that all the Voron designs are available to download and re-engineer ourselves, I've made new parts for my specific needs and contributed redesigned parts to the published design, something you couldnt do on mass produced printers.
honestly... the vorons aren't speed printers.... there are a lot of other printers that are actually designed with speed in mind (vzbot, k3)
@@williamluong7743 That entirely depends on what you use within the frame. You can totally and perfectly throw a speed setup into a Voron. You can even reengineer it to use ball screws on the Z-axis instead of belts for greater precision. It's an Open Source system. You aren't forced to use the parts that the manual lists. Voron 2.4 uses the CoreXY framework, just like MirageC's high speed HevORT printer does. The CoreXY is proven as an effective, precise platform for high speed printing. How you choose to build it is entirely up to you.
Get a voron if you want a forever printer.
So, TLDR, The voron if you like 3D Printers, The Bambu if you like 3D Printing 😂
Also no cloud silliness with voron
Ok i had never thought about it like this and it makes total sense lol
For me it is "Do you mind doing some tinkering and configuring". If so then you get a printer that is truly yours, you can upgrade it. You'll never run out of parts as it's all off the shelf and printable.
@@6581punk meh, if you like "thinkering" just get a creality cr10 and enjoy thinkering 2h before each prints 🤣
Not quite.
A bambu if you want a tool
A prusa or anything else if you want a project
A voron if you want both
Great review, good comparisons. I own a voron trident and the main reason I chose it over the bambu was that I didnt mind building it and I prefer open source. DIY printers are the way to go if building it isnt a issue
I would agree to all except that the DIY printers are the way. For myself, yes. But others don't want any tinkering whatsoever. I am happy that those people finally have a good choice as 3d printing is awesome.
@@PrintingPerspective yeah, bambu has really changed the market
@@PrintingPerspectivelol. X1c looks like diy when you start having problems. Just changing a warped bed feels like assembling one from the scratch. And there are many people who got it and funding out that it involves a good amount of tinkering if you want your prints to be actually good.
And if their printers would be actually like the way ccp bl advertising then support would not be so slow. 7 days and still waiting for the response. Stupid me fell for their lies.
Paused at 30 seconds to say this:
FINALLY, THANK YOU! Thank you for doing an apples to apples comparison, and not a X1C vs Prusa (or any other bed slinger).
Thank you for a nice comment! :)
It’s apples to oranges.
Bambu is a printer made for manufacturers and noobs.
Vorons are for hobbyist.
If I was building a farm, I would go with Bambu and not Voron. As a hobby, Voron all the way.
So looking at it that way it’s apples and oranges to me.
The angles from which you can compare these two are multiple. From a consumer perspective I think Bambu vs. Prusa is a closer apples-to-apples, as both offer an experience where you buy a pre-buillt printer, join their ecosystem and get started printing stuff. From that perspective, a Voron is total nonsense to compare as you get a box of parts that require you to either print, or acquire a lot of additional printed parts and that'll take weeks to put together and possibly months to tune.
From a technological or price perspective, yes the Vorons are closer to Bambulab in that they are both fully enclosed CoreXY printers, capably of printiing up to at least 300C. A Voron Trident would probably be an even better comparison as they both have the gantry fixed and a moving bed.
Both comparisons are valid and valuable. Which one you value most in your purchasing decision is completely upt to you.
@@dangerous8333 i think what he means is that they are both built for high speed printing as well as both being corexy
@SUB3CRIBE01 Yes. I'm looking at it from a technical standpoint. You are correct.
You know what would be AMAZING? A print files list showing what files are needed for what setups. Like ... If I want to use a fysetc 350 kit and go straight to a stealthburner with a carbon fiber tap setup knowing what parts I need to preprint would be amazing.
I have both and they fill different roles! But once you build a Voron you now can go with anything! Any and every problem that you can have you can now fix! This is what I think the biggest value of building a voron is!
I agree. I need a new printer to replace my Ender 3 Pro and I'm looking at building a Voron 2.4 as a replacement. I've already done multiple mods on my old E3Pro (including swapping out the mainboard for a Manta M8P, which also required me to completely reengineer the electronics enclosure), but there's only so much you can do to a Cartesian printer. I want greater quality at higher speeds, so it's time to go for a CoreXY frame and the Voron looks preferable design wise over the HevORT. I'll probably swap out the z-axis belts for ball screws though. Throw on an Oldham Coupler for ball screws and all wobble on Z should be gone
Bambu Labs: the best printers for printing your Voron parts 😉
Reminds me of the butter robot from Rick and Morty lol, I am literally making a Voron with a X1E as we speak.
like IE best browser for install chrome or firefox)
I wish. ASA doesn't seem to play well with any Bambu printer. ABS not so bad, but ASA is another story.
@@ogpennywiseAsa prints perfect on my x1c and my k1 max it’s 50/50.
But on x1c Asa has no stringing and it is pretty smooth.
What issues are you having?
Voron 2.4 is a slightly flawed design (Overconstrained gantry, not ideal kinematics for its size).
The Voron Trident is:
Cheaper than a 2.4
Less Complex than a 2.4
Better Kinematics than a 2.4
More reliable than a 2.4
Flying gantry CoreXY only starts to make sense for above 500mm^2 bed sizes.
To get a bit more detail on the voron, you can choose to use a less aggressive input shaper method. I have found I can get even better results than on my bambu printers.
The stealthburner toolhead does have pretty poor cooling. Look into the mantis or XOL toolhead for better cooling if you want to print a lot of small PLA pieces
The best Voron mod is to print ABS.
@@Flumphinatortrue, I stopped buying PLA in 2017 and I ain't bout to go back. Abs is just...better. in just about every way I care about it's better. Lol.
I print almost everything in ASA.
If you need better part cooling for stealth burner. I recommend the CPAP mod.
If you have a bed on a z-axis, a 120mm or 200mm side mounted part cooler.
i own a P1S and i love it - great workhorse. But i also built a "voronized" Ender 5 with the MercuryOne Mod, rocking a modified Stealthburner with a Rapido UHF and a 0.6mm CHT Volcano nozzle, that can put out 50mm³/s without breaking a sweat. Thats 250mm/s at 0.3mm layer height and 0.7mm line width. The max - before you can notice underextrusion - i was able to reach (with ABS) was 68mm³/s, which is totally bonkers. Another thing i love is the freedom of customization. Since everything is open source with Fusion files for anything i can mod the crap out of every tiny detail - something the Bambu printers can't offer you.
I think this is a very cool showcase of the most hyped printers of both ways of 3d printing: A printer as the hobby or the printer as a tool. Owner of a 2.4 though😂
Thanks. It's nice that we finally have a choice in 3d printing. People can just easily print stuff and others can happily tinker and print.
I've used your sponsor PCBway a few times. Their user interface is great and the PCB were perfect.
Thanks for the feedback, it is nice to hear that! :)
To be honest, you would have been better using the LDO Voron kit for comparison as that's the officially mandated kit. Anything else is a bit variable in quality. My Formbot works well but it a more budget kit.
Formbot works great despite the budget. Where it falls short is the longevity of some parts such as the xy wire loom that often breaks wires from fatigue, clockwork bearings going bust at around 500 hours of print time, and questionable bondtech gears that may not be genuine.
For me the most important thing is: There is totally freedom, no specific eco-system like on other printers. you can use what Firmware you want, use what slicer you want, purchase spareparts what and from where you want, no need to use a chinese cloud service and so on
The thermo cam app seems really solid, user-interface-wise.
Im getting an X1C, even though I love modding and tuning printers and have 3 ender 3 pros ive spent way too much money on all running klipper with input shaping and other goodies I just want a fast printer that I never have to mess with and just prints well.
As a Voron user I can say that quality factors and usability are not on the same scale. Bambulabs are more relatable to a Prusa than a Voron and DYI projects are standalone.
You did a good job but a 1k kit can’t compare to “pro” kits or self sourced builds and has to be said.
If you’re willing to spend 3-5 grands and spend al lot in implementing your logics and macros you will end with a printer going almost twice as fast as a Bambu capable of high temp materials with restricted thermal expansion. But as soon as you start with cnc aluminum parts, grade 1 titanium backers, hywin rails etc the law of diminishing returns strikes.
TLDR: Vorons/Ratrigs/Vzbot etc.. DIY printers can and will perform better than any bambulab but require skills, money, time and expertise, you sum it well saying “if you just wanna print go bambu” but is not like building a Prusa kit, is more like building your own machine from scrap like in 2015 and compiling your logics to make the printer run.
I'd say it depends. BambuLab X1C uses the same framework as the Voron printers does. Comparing an X1C to a Prusa may be sensible performance wise, but framework wise you're comparing a CoreXY to a Cartesian and Cartesians are known to perform worse than CoreXY.
@@Arterexius definitely wrong argument and still prove my point
@@AdventurePrinting Not exactly no. At the present moment there's nothing but personal opinions here. If you know that you are correct, I am sure you have the links to back it up?
@@Arterexius “Bambulabs uses the same framework as the Voron does” is factually false. This means you know nothing about the argument. If you think that the trident (just one of the Voron design has the same kinematics of an X1C that’s delusional.
@@AdventurePrinting Additionally, what's actually delusional, is your inability to understand what *Open Source* truly is, given that you apparently believe that anything that builds on Open Source systems, must be identical copies.
I would love to see a Voron build which uses 40x40mm heavy extrusions and/or fully solid milled aluminum parts to reduce vibration and ghosting in the prints and improve rigidity.
Input shaping can "smooth out" smaller details at more aggressive settings, which could be why the V2 wasn't as good at producing those details than the X1C. Be interesting to see the input shaping settings for each printer was and how much of a difference that makes
One thing to consider: there are open source projects for tool changers for the voron, where the the bamboo is stuck with AMS.
WIth an AMS that works very well and makes Multicolor prints as easy as they can be.
Again the same choice - tinkering a lot or just printing?
Yup, I would fully agree with this. AMS makes you lazy lol. It is that good. One just works and other things can be fun tinkering with. Both is good for a right person.
Only disadvantage of bamboo in terms of multi-material printing is that you can't install toolchanger or second head for idex on it
If you only need multi color printing with the same material, it's pretty well integrated solution
@@shadyb On how many printers can you install a toolchanger or a second toolhead?
Bambus goal wasn't to make the ultimate printer, it was to make a very good printer for a good price for the most usecases.
Many people, including me, use the AMS mainly as a storage to be able to just print with different filaments without having to actually change it.
@@Glasrandkante you can install those on whatever printer you have as long as it has open firmware and you can find or make mods for it
I know the voron guys dont all freak out that their machines will be obsoleted everytime an update gets announced. To me this is a huge advantage to foss. I really hope we dont see printer grave yards
As someone who likes to tinker with old/broken 3D printers, I have no problem raiding said graveyards for cheap to make my own Frankenstein monsters.
Nice and detailed test. Thank you. I’m a BLV Cube user but was interested how the Voron keeps up
After this video I've decided I'm happy with my V-core3. :D
It is a great printer, why wouldn't you ;D
I have both but I prefer the vcore
Don't check only ringing on the accel tuning tower, but also at which height (acceleration) the gap widens. As I mentioned elsewhere, the X1C shows quite some smoothing in sharp corners due to excessive input shaper, so the V2.4 may still be the better one overall even if the prints from X1C are INCREDIBLY (I admit that) smooth.
I've built so many printers and spent countless nights building firmware and tuning.
I bought a bambu and print via microsd and have never connected it to the Internet. I finally realized the beauty of plug and play.
Correct me if I’m wrong but after the printer is built and working as you want… there should be nothing left to do but use it…? I mean that’s the way both my vorons are…
There is no such thing as the Voron. Its your individual Voron, you build and modify it to your liking. The way of building and modifying is the goal.
Everything about Voron is open source, no vendor lock in.
But until bambu labs makes a larger printer it’s just the voron that could do this well at this size, I’m building a 300 kit (would’ve loved a 350 but too large to fly to the uk) to make some parts in one piece
As a Voron 2.4 owner, I can’t wait to get my hands on a VzBot
A few things about the comparison: Voron teams goals are about off the shelf part availability and long term reliability. Speed is nowhere in their mission statement.
They were also designed to be self sourced with high quality materials, not purchased in a kit meant to cut as many corners as they can get away with.
This doesn't invalidate any comparison, just worth understanding.
Yes, I am aware of that and that's amazing. And even despite that they still provide quality prints at higher speeds. I need to go more into DIY printers, I already miss building it. F... it is addicting haha!
I don't understand this. You say the point is not speed, but also that the point is to build it with high quality parts...what could the benefit of those parts possibly be besides speed? Precision? Even an Ender prints pretty much as precisely as FDM will go.
Sounds an awful lot like "we are using fancy parts for no reason". If you're gonna spend that kind of money, an Annex is actually fast. Everything is still "off the shelf" as you say...all these parts are standard on any printer...bearings, idlers, pulleys, rails...what could possibly be "not off the shelf"?
Honestly, I think the actual Voron goal is "coolness". Which, fine, but it's not for me...not at that price. I want performance.
@geometerfpv2804 I didn't say I agree with the goals or that voron is ideal. I only clarified vorons stated goals and what they did to achieve them. Weather you agree with the goals, what they succeeded, etc, is an entirely different discussion.
@@geometerfpv2804 Reliability & Consistency are two points other than speed.
I've built voron for myself for home and asked boss to buy x1c for work.
I was thinking of getting a voron after owning three bambu machines, this video changed my mind and I'm just gonna get another p1s. Thanks!
I just found this video, but I think there is something to building and tuning a 3D printer that is in itself rewarding. The Bambu is better, but the Voron will become your own and you can take a little pride in that. It's like building a hot rod, it doesn't need to be better, it was the journey that made it fun.
Wow great vid! Thanks for this
You can use titanium or steel backers to lower the thermal expansion.
Both amazing and revolutionising products, anyway i would also consider a ratrig if i was on the market for a good 3d printer.
I feel like it is positioned in the middle of those two in terms of software, hardware and personalizzation.
Anyway they are all amaziong products quality wise and the choice should depend only on the specific personal needs.
THIS! These two printers are for completely different markets. It is not black and white, like one is good other is bad. I don't get why people take a stance for one or another. It is so crazy for me. It always depends on the buyer's needs. But if anyone is in between those two markets this is the video with the performance of both.
I'd say a voron is about 50 hours less good than the x1c to account for the build time. However, it is infinitely better if understanding how these machines work is worth learning.
A filter doubling as a bed fan would help you get to temperature quicker and with a more uniform temperature across the surface.
I just finished my third Voron. Already had 2 V2.4 and went for a Trident this time. I May get a Bambu sometime in the future IF it proves it's that better than a K1 that justifies costing more than twice the price.
Nice, I want to make more Vorons too. :) Where I live P1S (€749 / $785) costs ~18% more compared to K1 (€540 / $565). Maybe you looked at the P1S + AMS combo price? Creality has quite decent hardware, and the printer is nice, but the software/firmware is far from Bambu printers. K1's bed leveling is average at best and the heatbed doesn't even use the PID control method, but rather ancient BANG-BANG which makes layers look horrible. If K1 had a stock Klipper where you could easily fix all the things Creality broke and add new features it would be actually a great choice for people who have knowledge of Klipper. But now they don't fully know what they are doing and they are not letting people who understand things easily fix their printers, lol. That is my main issue with the K1 series printers. :D I need just to root it instead of waiting for Creality to fix things... :/
The real difference between the two is Build Volume, and Color.
Voron is going to be able to build a bigger object, with the 350mm version giving you a very large build area with only a handful of other printers out there being bigger, but also slower.
The X1C has its 4 color AMS allowing you to print, literally IN COLOR for your print, and while it will slow the print down because it has to purge between changes. The fact you CAN natively print something in color is amazing. Another good plus is its build volume isn't too shabby either (256mm) vs other printers.
Both printers can do 500mm speeds, Voron needs a lot of programming to do it, while the X1 does it right out of the box. As far as I know the Pallet 3 (can use 8 colors) wouldn't be able to keep up with the speed of the Voron, much less be able to use its software needed to set purge towers ect for changing the color as it does need to plug in to USB on the printer.
U are so funny😂
I own multiple Vorons and the Bambu Lab X1C w/ AMS. I am VERY experienced in building, designing, and modding printers. It is two completely different philosophies. Not really comparable. One is you get what you get. Jack of all trades and master of none. Want it to do X, maybe it is possible, maybe note, because proprietary. The other is as good as the effort you put into it. You want it to be able to do X, you can do that if you put in the effort. Also once you can print ABS reliably there is no point in PLA anymore. Its only good quality is you can print it on cheap printers. That is the only reason it is popular. If the melt temp isn't an issue PLAs problem with conforming to stress is. Makes it terrible for almost all functional parts. Hope you are into printing useless nicknacks. Get a resin printer and an air brush for that stuff. Also the key to high quality fast prints is stupid slow external walls first and stupid fast internals last. Where the quality does not matter as long as you can push the plastic fast enough. Do that right and you can even read the "3D Benchy" on the back of the model :)... and you will start running into the limitations of stepper motors and there resonance frequencies.
I like your style
based comment
I may be going with klicky probe instead of the TAP to reduce toolhead wight. Do some CPAP cooling for part cooling. I will also run the CAN bus board to make life more simple and reduce the X gantry weight because of not having the cable chain and all the cables inside that chain.
I went for klicky. Works well. I am not sure I understand the hype around TAP. It adds weight, seems to be problematic for toolhead rigidity and not to forget, your measuring reliability is suddenly getting a new problem which is oozing.
@@sagichnicht6748my X1C has a PETG bulge problem. Clicky sound like it would be fine for me. Plus I’m doing the ERCF system with a blob purge system. So the hotend will only heat up just before it start to go
I bought a p1s and as a tinker it leaves a lot to be desire. Considering a voron or prusa xl now
Prusa XL is unmatched by anyone, truly in a class of its own. With actually useful multi material printing
stealthburner is a reshape of the old abbn toolhead which is several years old and a dated design underneath. its not a very good toolhead on modern diy standards- its heavy, clunky, bad resonance performance, and poor cooling. its better than the old afterburner but its not a competitive toolhead in modern designs. tap is not an upgrade, its a downgrade and depending on what parts you use to build a tap setup, it will introduce a tremendous amount of printer problems in terms of surface quality. tap cuts resonance/ringing performance essentially in half at the expense of convenience of not using a probe, a problem that wasnt a problem. want a good voron? run a good, light toolhead like mantis, xol, or archetype. half the weight and +50% - 350% more cooling at the same time. run a good probe like a klicky or a beacon. you'll have much more control and quality on the printer over the bambu on this case. if you take the recommended shaper from those charts instead of doing it manually and tuning to mzv, you' will get tremendous ringing on your voron because 3 hump is meant to specify for both 3 spikes, and a high bandwidth, high smoothing setup that will also screw all your parts up. the move would be to increase your belt tension and use better quality and higher preload linear rails, to get narrower spikes, so that the shaper curve covers the whole spike. you can set your shaper curve to the apex of the curve, but then set your max accel below anywhere that isnt covered by the shaper curve. given that you have a slope almost from the start, you're going to have ringing albeit suppressed, along the entire curve. this is a tuning problem, and a problem with your particular kit and particular build, not the printer design. kits use shit rails and this is a big impact too. most kits use zf rails with basicaly no preload, which is way too sloppy. should note, i was a day 1 x1c+ams kickstarter, and i have multiple vorons and have been in the voron community since 2021. both are great machines, but the voron is going to be highly dependent on how you build it.
great video. please can you clarify what the zhop test was trying to show? Is it that printers might not return to the correct z height after a hop, hence inconsistency in layer lines? thanks
Yes, you're correct. In almost all cases a printer will never return into the exact previous spot, so the test show how consistently it can do z hops. Inconsistent extrusion or any other related variables can also negatively impact results, so you need to test for those first.
The Voron 2.4 is quite expensive when you use good quality components. When you have a Voron build with lower gade components (like mine) the printer is not that fast and not reliable enough for big prints and you spend quite a lot time on troubleshooting and repairing. The BambuLab X1 carbon is comparable in price and just prints fast and reliable. I sold mine and replaced it with a Prusa XL. A very sturdy and reliable machine with multiple tool heads instead of a filament changer. Not as fast as a Voron 2.4, but capable of printing 24/7 without any issue.
Maintenance of Prusa XL is a nightmare. From the printing factory's perspective, Prusa is already behind the times.
When I think of building a Voron, I'm intimidated. Everything could go wrong. And I've read about seasoned printer builders get called idiots by Voron fanatics. It does not make me want to take that leap.
I really want to build one and put in the work. I keep coming back to Vorons. It's what my nerd heart wants but my knowledge is lacking. It's frustrating.
I love 3d design and printing. But what I love more is learning how 3d printers work and how to solve problems.
I'm finishing my 3rd Core XY Voron and I'm still intimidated. More relating to the different mods available and the config changes for each of them. I've also historically messed up my bed plates the first time I print something, lol. The discord or FB groups may have some less than helpful folks, but there are still a ton of great people to help if you need it.
I was a Kickstarter X1C/AMS backer. I've had NOTHING but problems. My printer will only print on the cool plate. Initially, bambu said it was due to firmware, and it would be fixed with updates. Now over a year later and like 20 Textured and smooth PEI plates. It still wont adhere to any of them. I have been begging Bambu for help the entire time. I always got canned responses to slow down speeds and dont raise the bed temps to over 65c (I never did). Finally after a year, and sending dozens (hundreds?) of support messages along with printer logs, they said they're going to send me a new bed. I don't know what they found in these logs that were different in the dozens (hundreds?) of other logs. I just hope this gets my printer working. I purchased a qudi 3 max and love it. I'm really thinking about building a voron next.
Interesting. I too am a KS backer with 3700+ hours printing on the X1CC. I have tried cool/black pei/peo/engineering plate and zero issues with sticking. So you have a video up? Maybe I can help.
@@ashleys3dprintshop I am totally stuck atm. My KS printer was different from their guide. Biggest being the right side panel, the guide shows only 11 screws, but mine had 14. So When I tried to pull the panel off it broke some screw connectors. I can get that back on as they obviously did away with those connections in later revisions, but it sucks they broke. However, they glued the hotbed connector sensor wire to the pcb. I cannot get it off without risking the integrity of the entire board (I've pulled hard and tried to pry it off with tweezers). At this point I'm out a printer. I've been messaging them non stop for a week asking how to proceed and they've gone completely radio silent. I can certainly document everything (already have for them), and email you.
I too have built a v2.4. Personally i see the trident as the superior choice. The fixed gantry allows for auxiliary fans, poop opening for mmu printing, you can reinforce the fram with braces, in built volume filament storage as well as secondary use as dry box (spool under bed). Also the trident actually reaches the advertised z height, the v2 is most of the time around 40mm too short, the reverse bowden would be bent otherwise.
I agree with you, the stealthburner isn't that great for pla, you may want to look at the mantis toolhead, but keep in mind that the two front corners cant be reached.
The config is truly bare bones, not even a bed mesh is configured, although the stock inductive probe is heavily influenced by ambient temperature, so they skipped it.
There are ways to counter thermal expansion, you can install backer or cheapo rails on y, so your two y axis beams won't form a banana and for x you could use a carbon beam, simon from vez3d test thermal deformation with an aluminium beam and carbon fiber beam, the carbon one did only deform around 0,1mm, lightweight aluminium beam was 0,6 or more.
As for heatsoaking, im skipping that, even though i have the larger 350mm version. First layer was excellent and sticks most of the time too well. The only noticeable defect i get from that is you can see the x axis bending, but i plan on fixing that with a carbon x beam
As always great informative video, im just a bit disappointed that the v2.4 always get the spotlight while the trident is the forgotten child
Agree. Flying gantry is cool, but less performant. The only reason you'd need it is if you have a stupid heavy bed in the case of a massive build volume. Doesn't make sense at 2.4 typical sizes.
@@geometerfpv2804 yep, mostly cool factor. Not even sure if you save a noticeable amount of money since the 80t pulleys are hard to get. For heavy beds, you can still use ball screws and at the size you need ball screws, you can definitely afford them.
Honestly I wanted the heated volume to be more controllable, and with the trident the bed moving makes it much harder to precisely control air movement inside the enclosure to heat/cool as needed and not overheat for twitchy or experimental materials. Also heat control is the key to maximum strength for plastic FDM parts... And strength matters to me because I mostly print for component parts that tend to have at least somewhat structural use.
The trident was the cheaper kit, but I needed the 2.4. also the extra z axis height...100mm makes a difference for automotive parts. ^_^
@@NeoIsrafil you didn't gain 100mm in, you gained only 60mm. Try to move your toolhead to z300 and have a look at the reverse bowden. You can only achieve the for 350mm without a direct drive as the v2 was originally designed around a bowden setup and had two ramps boards.
As far as temperature control goes, a chamber heater might not be needed. In the summer i reached over 60 to 65c with passive heating (record was 68, ebb cpu was reporting 90c cpu temperature), although i should add that the room was over 30c, its a conservatory with three sides of glass.
As for temperature control, im not sure how the z axis movement should disturb the temperature control. The qidi x plus 3 and max 3 have also a chamber heater, but that one is in the bottom corner, probably so the freshly printed part wont be hit with a hot air gun or so. Also most industrial high temp printers have the bed as z axis and i would expect them to know more about printing at elevated temperatures than us two hobbyists
Awesome Video, thank you for that. 👍
Its open source vsthe bamboo closed source microwave appliance.
And if the X1 eats it’s pcbs again, like they like to do, speaking from experience, you’re screwed and can’t fix it yourself. You’re alway in need of a backup machine. My X1 is down for weeks again. I’m grateful for my solid Ender fleet to take over.
I have been using mine over a month and I didn't even had a single problem (knocking on wood). How long you have been using yours? What problems you encountered?
@@PrintingPerspective 1 year. And it’s already a replacement unit. There have been plenty of issues besides the total electronic breakdown. The hms causes more issues than it solves, especially with False alerts. The mechanics is fixable, but not electronics and firmware. Actually my current unit has probably been bricked by a firmware update, which is of course not reverseable. You’re dependent of the support which still isn’t staffed enough.
Well, we will see how mine will last. Electronic problems are a nightmare...
This is the main reason not to go with a X1 imo, your totally locked into relying on Bamboolabs for replacement parts and whatever quality control they have. At least with a Voron you could swap parts to something else if you found they break often.
I've built different 3D printers, from kits and from parts I sourced myself like the Willson 2 I build, designed by Martin Rice, I change it from Marlin to Klipper but Now I need to move on from tinkering to just print and design so my next printer is going to be a Bambulab, I know Vorons are great but I don't have the time for building one, also for the price you can't beat a bambulab with the AMS. One thing it makes bambu printers so good is the precision in the frame and the light weight X axis which allows fast speed without much ringing, I build a Kit 8 years ago, the creality 7 a tiny printer 120x120mm, it was slow but the print quality was even better that the one for bambulab and the reason is x and y axes were supper light weight. you cant beat the laws of physics jus with software compensations, if you want quality go slow and light and the Vorons to me are on the heavy side.
What temp range is safe?
Maybe depends on location uses of the device or cable and current flowing through it
They are not comparable in human sense. I have p1p and waiting for my Voron kit (siboor). Bambu is the choice that can't go wrong. Bambu as good as stock commercial product could be. But Voron completely different beast. For me, half of it's price is just opportunity to build it. If you can't enjoy this process - it's not for you. I don't know what I'll get at the end, but having Bambu in mind and all the mods available and vision how it must look like - I have great goal and optimism to achieve it. And enjoy the process. So, just choose wise: whether you want best result possible out of box for a fixed price or you want to achieve your own vision on implementation and enjoy the process
Inspired by this video, I rebuilt my Voron 2.4 and switched from Revo Voron to a Bambulab hotend (the TZ 2.0 + CHT clone). It works great. But it's so fast heating that the Klipper PID_CALIBRATE didn't find so good PID parameters. The temp fluctuates so much that I have to wait a while until prints start. Have you found some good PID parameters?
I never liked Klipper's PID tuning, I feel like Marlin had so much more precise control. If you tune to the printing temp, at least mine fluctuates only max of -1 to +1 degrees. It is a powerful heater with a low thermal mass of the heatblock. What you can do is add this code that replaces M109 (wait for hotend temp). It still waits for the set temp with M104 but it doesn't wait for temperatures to stabilize. The code is from the Ellis Print Tuning Guide.
[gcode_macro M109]
rename_existing: M99109
gcode:
#Parameters
{% set s = params.S|float %}
M104 {% for p in params %}{'%s%s' % (p, params[p])}{% endfor %} ; Set hotend temp
{% if s != 0 %}
TEMPERATURE_WAIT SENSOR=extruder MINIMUM={s} MAXIMUM={s+1} ; Wait for hotend temp (within 1 degree)
{% endif %}
Thank you @@PrintingPerspective. This is an alternative. But what PID params do you actually use now for your Stealthburner with TZ2.0 hotend? I experimented with the parameters and found a setting (pid_kp = 8.5, pid_ki = 2.62, pid_kd = 22.0) which starts with an overshot but is very stable after that.
I just use whatever Klipper PID gives. In my case they are:
pid_kp = 27.298
pid_ki = 9.578
pid_kd = 19.450
Google and read up on the theory. Don't just use other people's numbers. You need the means to. plot temperature over time. Start with I and D at zero and keep making P larger until you get oscillation, then back off. There is more but that is what Googler is for. Basically, you need a systematic approach, not just trying some numbers. PID tuning is a big field and is used for "everything from heating to electric motor control. It was invented for steering ships at sea, so there is. aton of theory out there to read.
why do you need filament load and unload macros? - filament load - heat up the hotend beyond the melting point of the plastic that's in it, unlock the extruder, pull the old filament out, insert the new filament, pushing it through the hotend until it comes out, lock the extruder. done. the only macro you really need is the integrated one that's "heat hotend for pla or abs depending on what filament you're printing with.
The Bambu lab was with the Auxiliar Fan on?
Love the look of voron printers,but all the building and mods you need to do scrambled my mind. If i had more time in my daily life maybe i could learn but its not a reality for me.
So i went with a x1c and i am happy.
The 2.4 is not as fast, however what it is not in speed its not slow either, and to be honest after owning a few 2.4's, Tridents and now an X1C, they one thing they have on the X1C is far superior quality of prints and quiet operation. I have gotten passable prints on the X1C but not quality prints, mostly due to the motion system and FVA lines on the X axis which if you do your homework and read up on it, is super common on both X and P series Bambu printers. However my go to is my X1C for general prints. For absolute quality prints my 2.4 and Trident. For draft prints my X1C and Sovol Sv06 (which is almost a switchwire now)....
What is cnc tap? I'm trying to learn. Planning on building a Big voron 2.4 over the next year
CNC machined from aluminum instead of 3D printed from plastic.
its a machined metal part, it holds your toolhead and also acts as the probe, its what lets your toolhead go up and down 1mm or so without breaking things or scratching beds
The Sovol SV08 is the best of both worlds
Voron 2.4 variant with a good out of the box experience
And, there is a mod you can use to use regular Bambu nozzles :)
the can board upgrades have made a lot of the wiring mess more manageable.
I am very happy with my Bambu. one day i willl get a Voron.
As a small company with around 35 printers of different brands, we are now shifting some of our printers to Bambulabs. Time is money and we don't want our team to work on building machines that will pay for themselves in a couple of weeks time. We just get the good printers then dial our own settings and start producing products.
The time spent building our machines was easily worth it when we integrated our Klipper machines with our central business systems. It all depends on the way you look at things. For us a well documented API, readily available open market parts and having people learn the skills of building and maintaining a printer easily beat the convenience of the closed, proprietary plug and play solution (even if our test printers we had from bambu hadn't been such a nuisance)
the voron won’t snitch on you to the alphabet boys. anything that goes wrong on your voron is your fault, because you built it.
Thanks, Dale Gribble
snitch on you to the alphabet boys? what does this word salad even mean
Good thing we are all ethical makers here 😫
@@logitech4873 FBI, CIA, ATF, MIB and all other agencies
2 mins into the video and im already looking at the A1. I don’t want to deal with all this crap! I just want a thing that works.
The untold issue of the voron is maintenance : very time consuming and expensive parts while X1C repairs within seconds for cheap.
Wrong, the 2.4 kinematics are much more robust and reliable than any bambu, remember the x1c is basically a voron 1.6
@@CGMediaUK You missed the point, mate. Please read carefully. It's not about reliability, but rather maintenance and cost. Voron 2.4 parts are much more expensive, and any maintenance task-which is inevitable for any printer with heavy usage-takes hours on the 2.4. We have both, and while we print a lot on them, we avoid using our Vorons whenever possible, exactly for this reason.
@@axelSixtySix Voron parts are more expensive because theyre better designed and higher quality, after all the corexy bambu printers are just voron legacy with a few minor modifications, an 8 year old design
@@CGMediaUK Look, I don’t want to come across as harsh or inconsiderate, but here’s the thing and it’s quite remarkable. Sometimes, you put forth a comment, offer clarifications, and what you get in return are responses rooted in pre-packaged, predetermined ideas, which these individuals hold as immutable truths. They become, in essence, the zealous guardians of something. In this case, it’s Voron. Elsewhere, it might be some other brand of tool, a fishing rod, or a particular travel destination.
Now, I’m an engineer by training, and I built my first 3D printer back in 2008. In our print farm, we’ve been running four Voron 2.4 machines for three years now. What I’m sharing here is based on intensive use, albeit less intensive than anticipated, and there’s a reason for that. I’m sorry if this bursts your bubble of Voron enthusiasm, but whether you like it or not, it’s the reality we’re dealing with after nearly 10,000 hours of print time on each of these machines. If you're good at math, you’ll notice they don’t run as frequently as we expected when we invested in them. Some of our Bambu machines have run over 6,700 hours in a single year...
So NO, the parts from the Voron project aren’t superior. In fact, they’re unnecessarily complex, simply because 3D printing allows for convoluted designs. Given the limitations of plastic, these printed parts are 20 times weaker than equivalent aluminum parts, which could have been designed in a much more rational way. This unnecessary complexity also permeates the machine’s assembly and construction-something that would never be viable in an industrial setting. And while that doesn’t detract from the technical sophistication or performance of the machine, it’s an important observation from an engineering standpoint. When it comes to 3rd parts' quality, there’s the price-to-replacement-time ratio, which can disqualify many of Voron’s part choices. In other words, if an expensive part doesn’t last significantly longer: like a ruby nozzle or an Obsidian one, you’re better off using a cheaper option that needs replacing just as often. That’s exactly what happens with Bambu Lab’s hardened hotend except that they cost a fraction of the price..
Now, let’s talk about usage, and this is where things take a real turn. What most Voron zealots fail to recognize is that these machines are an absolute nightmare to maintain. Spare me the anecdotes about how you’ve never had to do maintenance or that some overpriced accessory has spared you from it. Either you’re Pinocchio’s long-lost descendant, or you simply print so little that you haven’t faced these issues yet. The real problem with Voron machines, aside from their unnecessarily convoluted design, is that routine maintenance takes an inordinate amount of time compared to better-designed machines. Even something as simple as changing a hotend can take ten to twenty times longer than it would on a more streamlined machine. And don’t even get me started on changing a rail or replacing belts-tasks that can easily consume an entire workday. That’s the fundamental issue with Voron: it’s the maintenance. Feel free to deny it if it offends your sensibilities, but that won’t change the reality of the situation.
The 2.4 is a little bit overengineered but a great machine.
But the 0.2 is a printer without real alternative. I just love that thing. It's small fast and reliable. Just spits out abs parts like nothing else in that small of a footprint.
You buy a bambu if you want something that works out of box. The vorons are for thinkerers.
I love your videos, you focus on details that are very difficult to hear from many 3D printing UA-camrs.
What is your opinion of the Creality K1? I bought it very cheap with the idea of customizing the firmware and hardware to have a silent and precise printer.
Do you think this will be possible with the linear rail system?
Thank you very much and sorry for my English
Thanks! That is what I am trying to do here! :)
I still testing K1, I think it is better than most people would think at first, but it still has issues. About the fans, they are insanely loud but they also push a lot of air. So I feel like you have to slow them down as much as you can. You can fine-tune them to find a cooling/noise sweet spot with my overhand test print if you are printing PLA. When printing ABS it is not that loud, Bambu is definitely more irritating if you are in the same room. About the motion system, you can't escape the reality that it will make noise at higher speeds. Also, a good idea would be to use foam tape like on Vorons to reduce vibrations on those side panels as they can act as loudspeakers.
@@PrintingPerspective brilliant! I will apply your ideas. The truth is, I think that the Creality K1 is a printer that offers hardware for a price that is impossible to find in any other way. I think it is a cheap printer with great potential, just like the Kingroon KP3S. Thank you for your words
Grrr, no you didn't help me make the choice :).
I am in the process of switching from a Creality CR6-SE to a corexy. The Voron V2.4 and Bambu lab X1C or P1S are highest on the list. I am a tinkerer but for the foreseeable future will be very busy with work... So yes 2 years ago the Voron was a no brainer for me, now I might "have to" settle for the X1C or P1S not to end up with a half built printer. Maybe I should wait till the Xmas holidays...
I have the X1C for 4 months now and it's been great. I'm new to 3D printing so it just made sense to go with this one and at the time I didn't even have a clue what a Voron was. I would say the X1C will treat you well for a reliable workhorse and would be a great addition to any fleet. I have since been diving deeper into the whole open source printing aspect as well as fine tuning beyond just using the micro LiDAR for the Ai hassle free printing to get better quality from the printer. I will eventually venture into making a large coreXY like the Voron or potentially the VZBot AWD but I will definitely keep the X1C around for its ease of send it and just get what I need from it. I feel like Voron or any DIY kit shouldn't be your sole printer because some problems can leave you out of the loop until replacement parts arrive or troubleshooting rectifies the potential issues. I also love the fact I can send something to it to test fit at ludicrous speed and refine my models to iron out fitment or design flaws. AMS is also something you need to take into consideration because ATM its basically the easiest and least expensive way to multi color or multi material print. As long as you take care of the X1C it will just do what its meant to from my experience (cleaning and maintenance).
Ahh, well maybe this will help. So the Voron 2.4 is a great printer, but if you never made one it will take A LOT of time. So you kinda have to build it slowly and don't burn out yourself especially if you encounter problems with the build. Then you will actually have fun assembling it. For most people, I feel like it is a long project that you can slowly work on, challenge yourself, and have an insane satisfaction when you finally make it. Meanwhile, Bambu machines are basically I don't care about anything, I just want to print! Take my money! They are loud and nobody knows about true longevity. But the fact that I can buy P1S+AMS for the same price as a cheap Fysetc Voron 2.4 kit that doesn't have the additional upgrades is kind of insane value. Plus you have to print high-quality parts for the Voron in the first place. But also you can order most of them with the Voron PIF program. It is a hard choice.
Ratrig.
Just finished building mine last week. Went against the recommendations of just get it working and then mod...
I went straight to Tap, Canbus and umbilical.... and to top it off I went with an Octopus Max EZ instead of an Octopus v1.1... so none of my configs applied. That being said, yes, the configs are a bit tedious. But I also made it more difficult than most, but by nature that's what I do LOL. The fact that these things are so extensible is just amazing though. And the cool thing is, once you build it, you can print off spare parts and if something breaks, you are good to go in no time. And the fact you built it, you will get that intimate knowledge of what makes it tick. Invaluable for a machine of this scope.
If you go Voron, just remember to take your time. It's not a race. And be sure to use the Voron Discord if you have issues. They are a very helpful community. Watch Nero3D and Steve Builds on UA-cam (they are VoronDesign team memebrs). Mine is a LDO kit, but I borrowed pieces of configs from the LDO and the Magic Phoenix kits (they have configs for tap and the SB2209/2240) and made my own.
The whole process has been very satisfying. Orcaslicer has been a dream come true too. :)
Props to Bambu Lab for providing X1C for going head to head against the undisputed champion of hobbyist fdm printers.
I'd like to build a Trident, but pricing honestly holds me back at the moment. I run a small 3D printing business and, while I have a pretty good working knowledge of FDM, I'd like to build a Voron and learn Klipper. But ~$1000 for the Formbot Trident kit (without printed parts) or $1500 for the LDO 2.4r2 kit is a bit much...
buy a used kit/buy a v0
The largest Voron 2.4 has a print area 350x350. Rat Rig has a 400x400 and even a 500x500. I don't know of any other printers that large for such a low price.
I wouldn’t recommend a Voron in a print farm. Wonderful machine but you need scalability and if you get a big commission you cannot spend 50+ hs building a Voron requiring a kit and upgrades with undetermined shipping time. You need something like Sovol, Prusa and Bambu that can send you 10 printers in a week.
@@AdventurePrinting As a voron printfarm owner I'd have to disagree (We run tridents and v0.1s). By now we have all the jigs and practice in place to make building easy and the time invested is well spent as far as training people to do a better job in maintenance goes. We also have easy access to eu stock in kits. For us building a trident or building a mk4 hardly makes any difference at this point.
how do they compare to Troodon 2.0 from Formbot, the premade Voron
I recently built mine 2.4 350 with Tap and CAN mods and it was somewhat hard to switch between different manuals and it got complicated fast. Luckily I had already helped to build my firend's vanilla 2.4 350, so I had some experience and he helped me as well. I considered a Bambu, but the larger build volume was what I wanted and I'm also not super into the proprietary way of doing things that bambu is doing. That said, there's a difference between having 3D printers as a hobby and 3D printing as a hobby. Personally I loved the experience of building one and I love that it's so easy to mod parts and I have installed a The Filter active carbon filter and webcam. Not everyone wants to go through that ordeal just to 3D print stuff, though.
Is this printer purely just for hobbyists? Or is there actually any benefit to building it that you couldn't get off the shelf with another product?
You learn the ins and outs, how thing were put together. Gives you generally more knowledge and will help when troubleshooting. Also you know what you get for your money
It's kinda like, "My Honda is better than a Porsche - after I replaced the block, crank, rods, head, added a turbo, went with an aftermarket ECU, replaced the transmission gears, upgraded the shocks, springs, brakes, wheels, tires, etc, etc." Sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison, really, as each party is after different things.
Um, not to mention _all_ the upgrades you can go with to fix most of the problems you mentioned. Such as even flatter bed and a kinematic system for thermal expansion, idler shafts instead of bolts/threads, the mods are endless. Also super awesome, it's free and open source, no sketchy Chinese servers with my data on them just to print something. I LOVE my vorons and would never buy a bambu let alone connect it to my network. It's known that stealthburner is not great for PLA/ part cooling - so many will go with XOL if you need insane cooling that would out perform bambu
The bambu has a custom fan that pushes out more air.
The 2.4 is my machine, what i mean with this is, if i change a component (say a nozzle) the machine wont care, and will keep printing, the bambulab, well, its their machine, you just bought rhe right to use it (if u change a nozzle with a 3rd part adapter) the machine will notice it and complain about it
good perspective!
people should take notes on your sponsor ad insert. it went right with the content and is the first time i haven't just skipped it. i hate them but well done hope it helped your channel
open source(physical design and firmware) >>>>> all other things
2:02 if you don't have problem solving skills you will ALWAYS have problems with any machine.
Is 3D design your primary hobby and you need a TOOL to print your designs? Get a Bambu lab printer. Are 3D printers your main hobby and you like tinkering to make them better (and you have 2-3x the budget)? Build a Voron or RatRig. The Bambu printers out of the box will get you 75-80% of the way to the MAX quality you can push out of a Voron 2.4, and it will already be there 20 minutes after opening the box.
This comparison is flawed in so many areas....
Buys the cheapest kit for a Voron 2.4, when most kits cost double of what the kit shown in this video.
Then correctly says that you need some experience building a Voron, but then complain the lack of scripts lol, well that is the point, you are free to customize it as you wish.
Then proceeds to evaluate his Voron against a Bambu X1C without considering that this video creator experience will not be the same as the majority of Voron owners with better components.
All this to say, that this video is flawed in the sense that it doesn't represent the average Voron build, mostly due to the cheaper kit. As such, it just shows this specific build, which is not surprising to loose in some aspect, which I also suspect being due to poor assembly.
Getting a cheap voron is like buying one of those nigerian DIY lamborghinis. Voron is meant to be a no compromise printer, getting cheap parts ruins the point
@@giedrius2149 agreed, you are better served with a cheap Chinese printer like a Creality
Why not compare Bambu with Voron Trident ?Hopefully there will be videos in the future
Because everything said about Bamboo applies regardless of what you compare it to.
i wouldnt have nay other printer than a voron, it is for the people that enjoy building and modding their printers as much (if not more) than actually printing. it is a pretty hard challenge at time and not for the impatuient a all.
100% true. I love it a lot as I like tinker and mod stuff, but it's also nice that there is an option for people that wants none of that and just to print.
Should look into an Annex K3, might change your mind
You forgot to mentionthat the Voron can be built up to 350mm. If you need big parts the Bambu is not an option.
Looks like im shelling out some money and gonna be pulling my hair out.
if i was going to do a voron now i'd do a troodon as it's much easier to setup and then you can switch to klipper later :)
True, but the only downside is that it is not that easily moddable.
@@PrintingPerspective only really a mainboard swap which granted is a pain but you don't have to do that to get a good experience but do for full potential haha
Would be interesting to have a Bamboo and Voron simultaneously print 24/7 and see which one breaks first. My money would be on the Voron.
Possibly...contact both companies and get printers sent and run that test. Just make sure the bambu has fire suppression near by incase it decides to start ghost printing on its own in the middle of the night 😊
Tough to say. BL printers run a lot harder on their internal components than Vorons due to higher accelerations and speeds for most setups. The Vorons use printed parts, but honestly they aren't the bottleneck to longevity in my experience. My bearings and belts are usually the first thing to give out after around 1500-2000 print hours. Would be interesting to see, but I'll tell ya from a technician's perspective I'd much rather work on a Voron that's broken than a BL that's broken.
@ferdinandhenkel4567 You have to clean carbon rods on Bambu printers, otherwise, they will act as abrasive dust and the X-axis will fail prematurely. So... you can't be running 24/7 the printer unless you intentionally want the X-axis to fail. :)
@AustinDennis "I'd much rather work on a Voron that's broken than a BL" that is 100% true. Especially if the problem is unknown and you have to figure out what is wrong with a machine in the first place.
And then do a comparison on which one you can actually fix.
Vorons and Bambulab do not even play in the same game. This has nothing to do with which one is better but rather with what they are. Bambulab is a ready out of the box printer for people whose hobby it is to print stuff, fast and well. Vorons can also print fast and well but they are perfect for people whose hobby is the printer itself (and possibly printing or designing stuff on top of it).
Wow! Think I'll just stick with the 800 Bambu P1S.
A more accurate comparison would of been a trident 250 from ldo motors with speedy stepper motors for xy and high steppers for the xy as well.
The main differences were design and user experience...how does the trident differ?
Voron 2.4 is built to print ABS. That’s why part cooling is lacking when printing PLA.
Will we ever see a multi material system for a voron? Asking for a friend.
People already made some
People that build vorons actually enjoy the hobby. People that jump straight to bambu just want plastic junk to fill their house up with. Using $5 in fillament to print a $2 toy.
Or, the people who buy a Bambu/Qidi because they want to print functional items and don't want to have to constantly fuck around with a Voron. But keep gatekeeping, I guess.
@@theglowcloud2215 Got any pics of all these functional prints you're making? I had no idea that multicolor was needed for function. It's a printer that won't even let you set offsets to get the dimensions accurate. But keep lying to yourself, I guess.
@@jessie38supercharged No need to be so rude. What's gotten you in such a bad mood? This kind of toxicity is just detrimental to the 3D printing community.
"Got any pics" is a pretty weird question to ask in a comments section where you can't post pics or links. Like, what kind of response are you expecting?
I use a Bambu X1C to print functional parts, and I don't see myself having the time to build a Voron.
I haven't had any issues with dimensional accuracy whatsoever, and the AMS is great as a magazine for your most commonly used filaments. I sometimes use the multi-color function, but not very often.
Reality is that the X1C is fantastic for people who want to have a fast 3D printer for making prototype stuff. Vorons are for people who are interested in building a printer.
So if the Bambu Lab printing output quality is better, why buy another that prints worse? (besides print size limitations). I'm a resin printer user looking for an FDM CoreXY, and to me the quality is the most important factor. Imagine buying a TV with very slighty blurred image in some places, versus a regular cristal clear one, and saying that the blurry one is better because you can fix it when it brokes.
problem is as he said, Voron quality depends alot on the builder. He started with a dodgy budget kit and we don't know how well he put it together.