"There are a number of products out there that are very expensive and they are not high-end and There are a number of products out there that are very inexpensive and they are high-end" ~ very honest words from Paul Sir....🙏
In the 90s I had Adcom separates and thought they were good, but about 14 years ago I sold everything and got the Outlaw Audio 990 PreAmp/Processor and 7500 Balanced amp ($1000 each), B&W 804S speakers ($4500/pr) and HTM3S center ($1500), and the Oppo BDP-95 ($1000) for CD/SACD & movies. Plus all the balanced cables, interconnects, and biwire speaker cables. Total would be about $10k and sounds fantastic. No "listening fatigue" or over brightness that some people say they get with Bowers Wilkins speakers.
One trick to navigating high end audio, is not being fooled into thinking it needs to be expensive because other enthusiasts seem to spare no expense when buying their components.
I love my system. Not flash but after having my speakers rebuilt after 30 years of use they really do sound fantastic now! My tt is a nice denon and my amp is a home theatre amp but caters for my phono and cassette player. Having ribbon tweeters installed into my speaker boxes as an upgrade made a vast improvement over the previous sound. I’m chuffed with my sound now and it didn’t cost a great deal.
The starting point for high end audio happens when we have more brains than budget. Then we have researched enough, listened enough to make a decision. We can have SPECTACULAR results with a budget system. That is very much high end. It is a beginning of a journey. My first high end system was some electrostatic headphones, a turntable and a great preamp.
The era of terribly sounding earbuds and Bluetooth speakers has dominated music consumption for especially younger customers reaching now a couple of decades. I have a daily exercise trip and have been using my AirPods Pro 2 while on the go. Actually I decided to try them after watching some online review and for non-critical listening while exercising, they do a fair job. I'm hopeful that especially younger people will start to realize there is so much more quality to achieve when spending more money. Personally I became audiophile after investing in some Stax electrostatic headphone in the 1980s in my teens and soon I wanted to invest in a stereo system also.
GM ☕️🍩 Money isn’t always synonymous with quality or something that you like . Good music and enjoyable sound can be had for ,as you’ve stated , for a small investment in a good dongle and IEM’s 👍👍 Great video
Do your homework regardless of the price of any component by reading reviews by trusted sources. Then if you purchase make sure you get a trial period to return any component if it does not sound the way you would like in your system. I just purchased a $1500 solid-state amplifier to take the place of a $9000 Audio research tube amp and I am staggered by the sound of my entire system. Sometimes I think I’m dreaming that this inexpensive amplifier could be so incredible. It can be a crapshoot make sure you cover your behind
High end isn't about price, it's absolutely about performance and quality. The key to assembling a great audio system isn't just going out and buying the most expensive stuff you can afford, it's researching the equipment and if possibly trying everything out before you buy it. My theater system is all Pinnacle speakers. Out of business now, but at the time I bought them I can tell you I thought they sounded better than the B&Ws my brother had which were 3 times the price. And other people who've been to both our houses agreed with me (quietly of course). But I never told him lol.
@@joe6096 it’s like Buchardt who are a fairly new speaker manufacturer, their first S300 Mk2s which I have, no bracing, cheaply designed cabinets, but they put all the money into the drivers and cross overs, and the sound they achieve is remarkable for the price. They’ve now been able to hugely improve the cabinetry and bracing, but obviously price has increased along with it. But still very good value vs the performance
Nice piece of wisdom from the Master and beautiful and true definition of high-end audio! I love it! I will keep it in mind when I shop audio next time! Thanks, ML, Olivier, Belgium 😉🙂
Great advice. 👍🏽 Another thing to consider is budget. If someone has no financial limit, it’s easy to experiment and see what works or doesn’t without worrying about money. However, for many of us (myself included), we might only have X number of dollars to spend so it’s important to find the best quality possible for the money. And of course one must consider the law of diminishing returns.
He's right, how does it perform, does it have a high end sound that knocks your socks off. I heard a system once yrs ago that had an insanely good high end sound and it wasn't expensive equipment that produced it but it was so stunning.
I’ve chosen my DAC and pre-amp because they both accept 12au7 tubes and the other accepts a rectifier tube. I found a quality powered speaker that uses an AMT tweeter. Plus, a sub company that also provides good customer service. Spent around $2300 total for components and speakers. I’ve probably spent the same amount on tweaks like cables, tube rolling, fuses, and various accessories. Of course I’ve made mistakes. I don’t want to count nor mention those. All in all, I love my sound.
@@SpyderTracks I like the 12au7 in particular. That tube has the highest variety of sound signatures by every tube manufacture ever. Surprisingly, not many audio component manufacturers ever used the 12au7 to sweeten up their sound.
'High end' can vary dependent on the amount of budget/R&D put into the sound rather than the design/casing etc, and also performance requirements like what sort of space do you want it to fill at how loud and low. Not forgetting the room and positioning of course...
For me, high end gear alone would never be considered high end if the synergy with the room, setup and all others gear are not matching! Like you said Paul, price is not the point with high end. I like to be amazed, surprise and emotionally disturbed with ‘high end’ and Patience to achieve it is my motto, not throwing money where the hype is! In the end, it’s all about how we feel about our audio setup, everything else doesn’t matter!
Excellent video but I wish Paul would have gone a step further. He said high end is performance based. Based upon what criteria? What are some specifics?
I wouldn't go by price, and if I did then I would look at how much marketing they do because that's going to be a Major player in the price (as well as the salary for all the bean counters who only wants to cut corners to increase profits). 🤷🏼♂️😄 It was actually a funny thing today from Jimmy Kimmel where they stood on the sidewalk and asked people if they wanted to try the new iPhone. Behind their back they cleaned their old and put on a new cover and handed it back, and they were all really impressed with the new technology. 😂
*"High-end" is a phrase which is used with multiple meanings.* Many people use it as a marker for _social status_ , so in that case price really is the topic. Here Paul is trying to use it to mean "audiophile", that is, a product for someone who is a lover of sound.
In this case Paul is spot on! Price has zero to do with what is considered "high-end". I have heard $60,000 speakers set up in a proper room and everything and they sounded like crap. I have heard a $399 speakers in a hotel room sound spectacular. It runs the gamut. High-end is performance as Paul said and price doesn't always equal performance. The other thing about what is considered "high-end" unfortunately is what self-proclaimed "audiophiles" say what is considered "high-end" and that is always based on price. The other problem with that is that it is dynamic, it changes every week to every day. Example: That amp or preamp or DAC or speakers or turntable or whatever you just bought for say $5000 or $10,000 or $20,000, etc. because everyone in a stupid "audiophile" forum said was "high-end" and if you don't have it you are not one of them? Yeah, the minute you buy it and tell everyone you did is the minute it becomes considered a pile of cheap junk and "you should have gotten this instead". Part of the point is do NOT listen to "audiophiles" or look on forums in this hobby either. Do your own research and talk to folks in the know who do not advertise.
@@alanpatterson820 I don't recall the model because it was about 5 years ago, but the brand was Magico in that particular case. Keep in mind that just because one model of speaker within a line is bad doesn't necessarily mean they are all bad. Designs change over the years. Also, it could have been a bad set up, one can't tell just by looking. Bad or good setups don't reveal themselves until one listens. An example of this is Paradigm. I found the ultimate speakers for me in the Paradigm Studio V5s in my opinion (fortunately, this was back when could spend months demoing the crap out of oneself. Sadly, that is now history). Then they brought in a new designer from some high school or something and came out with new lines. Being curious I heard their top shelf speaker models and not counting room setup, they were awful! Sounded like listening to two transistor radios. I thought a driver wasn't working only to learn that was the native signature. I'll never figure out why a company would want to kill their most popular product or whatever. One excuse I got was the reason was due to the cabinet being hard to manufacture, the rounded back (it was done in house like everything for the Studio and Signature lines). The new lines are all squared cabinets. I also thought though that they could not be nearly as hard as those funny looking things B&W make that look more at home on the bow of a sailing ship than in a room. (No, I'm not knocking those, they are good speakers, just a little limited in what they sound good with). I have heard the Paradigm Personas and the Premiers, both sounded terrible to me, but I have yet to hear the Founders line. Those might sound good, I don't know.
There’s at least 1 digital products company with 3 letter brand name with absurd prices for extremely subpar performance. There’s a lot of folks that define them as “high end” but I doubt most have actually done SxS comparison with actual high end digital equipment. There’s a company just down the road from PS Audio, that I suspect Paul’s comment was referring to. They make amps & preamps priced more than many homes. They have really exceptionally cnc’d cases. The electronics inside that case are a series of PCB’s assembled by pick n place automation then the PCB’s are connected by ribbon cables. Essentially built like a cheap computer and the sound presentation is closer to a Pioneer receiver than a quality amp. I suspect most consumers consider them “high-end” 🤦♂️
The reason you see variation in price so much are tons of differences. Some manufacturers have pretty outside casing but the guts on the inside are junk. They do this also with car audio. Some manufacturers like Parasound used to have parts made overseas with cheaper labor. They can us high quality parts but save on the labor and that is what makes their 11,000 amp sound like a 20 to 25k amp from a different brand. In the United States the labor is very expensive with pension, unemployment, insurance, etc. Also if manufacturer is smaller then when they buy parts the parts are mor expensive because they don't have order volume to get costs down. When parts companies sell items in bulk they can do on smaller margins of profit. Another thing that can happen is a brand name gets bought out and has bad vintage years or decades of product. This happened to Mcintosh. The company was putting out quality and then got bought out and that person mismanaged things so the product offerings weren't that good and took awhile to get back on track. That is why certain vintage years of product are highly coveted and others are not. Sometimes a brand is bought and they just rape the brand. What does that mean? it's like Breyers ice cream the ingredients used to be pure but now it's a bunch of chemicals on back. After an equity type company bought them they kept the name and prices but switched to junk ingredients. Bottom line due your research and ask lots of questions especially when you start spending tend to hundreds of thousands on a system. If you buy junk for 300 or 500 bucks it's not the end of the world. There are lots of scammers out there at all price ranges. Look for independent reviews that are not paid reviews and not real short and basic. Those are often shills for a company fake pumping the product. I like companies that have been in business awhile just because they have proven quality over time ( unless they get sold or something else happens ) and they stand behind their product.
Hmmm.. I understand what you're saying Paul - and I agree with you. But you haven't really answered the question. What is it about the SOUND that makes a product high end? Surely there is a spectrum of performance ranging from, er, rubbish to transcendental. Is there a clear point on that spectrum where you move from average to high end? Or is it just a matter of opinion?
Excellent response Paul, a whole lot of silly audiophiles tend to think price decides what is high end or not, when it solely has to do with performance. They will buy complete trash sounding gear if it is priced high enough.
Hell yeh brother! It is a great time to be an audiophile. You can have a great audio experience with $1.5k. And if you wish and have the resources you can also have a great experience for $1.5m. You can have a great sports car for $30k and if you wish and have the resources you can have a great sports car for $3m. I could have tons of fun in a used Porsche Boxster and given the resources thoroughly enjoy a GTA T.50.
High end probably means something different for different listeners. In my experience you need to spend a fair amount of money i.e over 20 k to design a revealing system with a wide sound stage, good instruments separation and holographic sound.
I would prefer to use the term “end game” than “high end.” High end is a loaded term with no set meaning for anyone. People can disagree on what is a “high end” product as there is no definition of high end and certainly no agreement on a price point where it begins. “End game” at least in my definition, is personal to the consumer. It speaks to how far you will go down the audio rabbit hole. That could be financial as in an unwillingness to spend over $10,000 for a speaker or a recognition that you just can’t hear the difference between a $10,000 piece of equipment and one costing far more. Who cares if, on paper, a piece of equipment is better if you can’t hear it??? The other aspect of term “high end” that I don’t like is that it implies that high end equipment will address all of your needs. It won’t. Speakers are a good example of this. “High end” speakers will not automatically address room size, room configuration issues, sonic qualities of the room, ideal placement within the room, or address any limitations you may have on where the speakers can be placed in your room for reasons like SAF. A “high end” DAC is not going to magically transform your music in all likelihood if it doesn’t fit in with all the other pieces in your electronic chain. “High end” does little to address the work you, as an audiophile, need to put in to make your system meet your needs in your listening environment. Personally, I’d take the term “high end” and toss it out the nearest window.
Enjoying and appreciating what one has is the greatest investment in just about anything. Plus there's hedonic treadmill / habituation. As I've gone up the audio chain price/quality-wise, I've found greatly diminishing returns, as my early, more modest gear was of good sonic quality.
In my opinion, I think the amplifier is the first thing you need to get right. You can have 200 dollars speakers sound high end on a good amplifier. 1000 dollar speakers can be seriously underwhelming on a low end amp.
Well, here's a question for ya. If you're a person who's not familiar with what high-end equipment sounds like, but want to achieve it in your home, how do you know when you've arrived?
1. You'll never "arrive" - it's always a journey 2. Visit a audio show or a high-end dealer 3. Use the "send back" policy from PS Audio or others to try out stuff at home
Those of us that know designers and the quest for simple great sound .. can tell you to start with vintage american products or vintage japanese..or ...see where im going..just like race cars.. modern options are somewhat better...but that comes with a price.. I suggest you start simple..and start enjoying music again..little by little..youll find expensive crap..and expensive gold as you climb the ladder of real audio . Good luck..
Adrian from Audio Excellence did a good bad ugly review on Legacy speakers and one of the ugly complaints from audiophile reviews was they weren't expensive enough for what they are. 🤷♀️ Crazy world it is 😊🙄
I would agree that it’s not about price it’s about performance but , then how do you judge any audio component or speaker based on sound quality ? Well although there are certain aspects of sound that are important there is some aspects of sound that are subjective and personal preference. I have my criteria’s that are important in sound quality and someone else may have other aspects of sound quality that are more important to them ! For me first is the ability to reproduce the natural tones of instruments, followed closely with detail or resolving power. There are many highly resolving audio products but do not reproduce the sound of instruments with a natural balanced sound and sound very artificial and unrealistic. So tone quality must be number one in my eye. If it does that well at least it’s musical and listenable.
“ Hey Paul Who Sets The Substandard Threshold for High End Stereo “ Paul “ Expensive Doesn’t Equate Quality and Quality Does Not Equate Expensive “” Hence Who Sets The Substandard Threshold of High End Stereos…..!😮
Without examples though... The question remains unanswered. How would the average person listen to a set of speakers or DAC and say "yes" that's a "High end" product??? That would just be their "average person, ears" opinion.
I think as a matter of language this is just mistaken. "High end" refers to price. So something could be high-end and still be a piece of crap. Calling something "high-end" is not an evaluation of quality. It describes what market it belongs to. The same thing applies to watches or to any other consumer good. Designer companies make high-end handbags. That doesn't mean these are higher quality handbags than inexpensive handbags
In my experience, first, never get a china based company dac at any price. They simply rely on number and measurements, a meh product. Until you hear chord, ps audio, etc. that really take their time and know what sounds great and not just numbers. Youll know high end audio when you hear it. Separation, imaging, depth, noise floor, sound stage, etc. are more important than any measuring device.
We Are Back Yet Once Again With The Mr. Rogers of High Infidelity None Other Than The All Knowing The All Seeing Guru Himself Paul McGowan 😮 Where We Take a Journey Through The Out Skirts Of Pauls Storage Room of Nuts and Bolts as Paul Meanders Through His Junk Drawers and Reads One of The Millions of Letters Paul Gets Daily as Only The Male Species of Cro/magnum Seem Too Write ✍️ Paul With Yet a Heart Wrenching Moving Question That Has Kept Me Up At Night As Well “” Hey Paul Who Set The Substandard Threshold For High End Stereo “” 😮 Please Paul We All Know You Are Tightly Wound and Just One Letter Short of Completely Loosing Your Mind….So Be Kind Tender and Gentle With Your Answer Paul As Only You Can Do…..
First of all, old vintage receivers are not high end. Just because you wasted 6000usd for receiver doesnt make it high end. Buy integrated , modern. Thats good start
Well. Depends..Please dont be biased. Products need to work well together.. I have early onkyo receiver I love and I have project/one integrated I love..and stacks of expensive gear those 2 easily surpass..but..its the law of deminishing returns..and many people throw money at products but get upset when they hear my 50 year old system.. its not fair comparison. I LOVE AUDIO.. BUILD AUDIO..REPAIR..AND MOD AUDIO.. ALL MY LIFE.. yes yes..I own a soundcraftsmen m5002..and yamaha m80 they sit in a pile with carver amp.. I play the amp I built in 1988 ..rockford fosgate rf 2000. Haha..
@@davidstevens7809i listened to so called vintage . My modern full balanced amp with A class preamp sounds better. Better resolution, better transparency, better holography
IMO "High End" is not a meaningful term. Just like "significant" isn't a meaningful word, such as claiming their amp is "significantly" better than another amp. These are imprecise terms and add little value because everyone has their own definition of what is "high end" and what isn't. I think we let these kinds of imprecise words steer us in the wrong direction. My advice - audition the components you are considering buying and buy the best sounding component you can afford within your budget. Who cares if someone else would label it "high end"?
Paul's not gonna name names when it comes to expensive crap, but I will: Bose. Aside from their noise cancelling, their audio equipment is absolute garbage. It baffles me that people think it sounds good.
Dodged the question. High end means being at the limit of what is possibe and this comes at a high price. In cars that could mean ultimate proformance or ultra comfort or even both.
With your reasoning why do the Ferrari guys say a Corvette Z06 that is faster than their car at a lower price is not a high end car? I think price has to play a lot to the term "high end". Can a guy on welfare own a high end stereo by your definition? So everyone with a $700 spout really has a high end system? I have seen a $25 Timex watch keep better time then a Rolex watch so because the Timex performs better it is now a high end watch? Something doesn't sound right. I think this is a question you should have avoided or is this the 1% that is not true?
"There are a number of products out there that are very expensive and they are not high-end and There are a number of products out there that are very inexpensive and they are high-end" ~ very honest words from Paul Sir....🙏
I've always wondered this, and never been able to put together the words to ask the question! 🤣Great job, Piere!! Lee UK
Schiit audio do some incredible low cost options that definitely broach on high end.
The Mjolnir 3 is incredible for detail retrieval
Good example.
In the 90s I had Adcom separates and thought they were good, but about 14 years ago I sold everything and got the Outlaw Audio 990 PreAmp/Processor and 7500 Balanced amp ($1000 each), B&W 804S speakers ($4500/pr) and HTM3S center ($1500), and the Oppo BDP-95 ($1000) for CD/SACD & movies. Plus all the balanced cables, interconnects, and biwire speaker cables. Total would be about $10k and sounds fantastic. No "listening fatigue" or over brightness that some people say they get with Bowers Wilkins speakers.
High - End to me is Good Synergy between the equipment, room , and listening habits.
One trick to navigating high end audio, is not being fooled into thinking it needs to be expensive because other enthusiasts seem to spare no expense when buying their components.
I love my system. Not flash but after having my speakers rebuilt after 30 years of use they really do sound fantastic now!
My tt is a nice denon and my amp is a home theatre amp but caters for my phono and cassette player. Having ribbon tweeters installed into my speaker boxes as an upgrade made a vast improvement over the previous sound. I’m chuffed with my sound now and it didn’t cost a great deal.
The starting point for high end audio happens when we have more brains than budget. Then we have researched enough, listened enough to make a decision. We can have SPECTACULAR results with a budget system. That is very much high end. It is a beginning of a journey. My first high end system was some electrostatic headphones, a turntable and a great preamp.
Well said sir. To many people dismiss products based on price. This is audio, not jewelry. How does it sound, not how much does it cost.....
The era of terribly sounding earbuds and Bluetooth speakers has dominated music consumption for especially younger customers reaching now a couple of decades. I have a daily exercise trip and have been using my AirPods Pro 2 while on the go. Actually I decided to try them after watching some online review and for non-critical listening while exercising, they do a fair job. I'm hopeful that especially younger people will start to realize there is so much more quality to achieve when spending more money. Personally I became audiophile after investing in some Stax electrostatic headphone in the 1980s in my teens and soon I wanted to invest in a stereo system also.
An excellent way of classifying what high end or HiFi is and its starting point
GM ☕️🍩
Money isn’t always synonymous with quality or something that you like .
Good music and enjoyable sound can be had for ,as you’ve stated , for a small investment in a good dongle and IEM’s 👍👍
Great video
Do your homework regardless of the price of any component by reading reviews by trusted sources. Then if you purchase make sure you get a trial period to return any component if it does not sound the way you would like in your system. I just purchased a $1500 solid-state amplifier to take the place of a $9000 Audio research tube amp and I am staggered by the sound of my entire system. Sometimes I think I’m dreaming that this inexpensive amplifier could be so incredible. It can be a crapshoot make sure you cover your behind
High end isn't about price, it's absolutely about performance and quality. The key to assembling a great audio system isn't just going out and buying the most expensive stuff you can afford, it's researching the equipment and if possibly trying everything out before you buy it. My theater system is all Pinnacle speakers. Out of business now, but at the time I bought them I can tell you I thought they sounded better than the B&Ws my brother had which were 3 times the price. And other people who've been to both our houses agreed with me (quietly of course).
But I never told him lol.
Yes, I like that you added quality, which is required for longevity. Quality need not be expensive.
@@joe6096 it’s like Buchardt who are a fairly new speaker manufacturer, their first S300 Mk2s which I have, no bracing, cheaply designed cabinets, but they put all the money into the drivers and cross overs, and the sound they achieve is remarkable for the price. They’ve now been able to hugely improve the cabinetry and bracing, but obviously price has increased along with it. But still very good value vs the performance
Nice piece of wisdom from the Master and beautiful and true definition of high-end audio! I love it! I will keep it in mind when I shop audio next time! Thanks, ML, Olivier, Belgium 😉🙂
Great advice. 👍🏽
Another thing to consider is budget. If someone has no financial limit, it’s easy to experiment and see what works or doesn’t without worrying about money. However, for many of us (myself included), we might only have X number of dollars to spend so it’s important to find the best quality possible for the money.
And of course one must consider the law of diminishing returns.
Chord Mojo2 DAC for $6-700 and it sounds amazing...
He's right, how does it perform, does it have a high end sound that knocks your socks off. I heard a system once yrs ago that had an insanely good high end sound and it wasn't expensive equipment that produced it but it was so stunning.
Good Philosophy !! Performance based
Can't wait for the reply video from Joe Schmuckle
I’ve chosen my DAC and pre-amp because they both accept 12au7 tubes and the other accepts a rectifier tube.
I found a quality powered speaker that uses an AMT tweeter. Plus, a sub company that also provides good customer service.
Spent around $2300 total for components and speakers.
I’ve probably spent the same amount on tweaks like cables, tube rolling, fuses, and various accessories.
Of course I’ve made mistakes. I don’t want to count nor mention those.
All in all, I love my sound.
@@tubefreeeasy tubes is where it’s at for me
@@SpyderTracks
I like the 12au7 in particular. That tube has the highest variety of sound signatures by every tube manufacture ever.
Surprisingly, not many audio component manufacturers ever used the 12au7 to sweeten up their sound.
From my standpoint, many upper end av receivers also now qualify as “high end.” I wouldn’t have thought that about 20 or so years ago.
I think not focusing on what is or is not high end is better. Get stuff you enjoy listening to, and when and if you feel you want an upgrade, repeat.
Great comment and advice!
'High end' can vary dependent on the amount of budget/R&D put into the sound rather than the design/casing etc, and also performance requirements like what sort of space do you want it to fill at how loud and low. Not forgetting the room and positioning of course...
Yes and thank you. High end =high fidelity.
For me, high end gear alone would never be considered high end if the synergy with the room, setup and all others gear are not matching! Like you said Paul, price is not the point with high end. I like to be amazed, surprise and emotionally disturbed with ‘high end’ and Patience to achieve it is my motto, not throwing money where the hype is! In the end, it’s all about how we feel about our audio setup, everything else doesn’t matter!
Excellent video but I wish Paul would have gone a step further. He said high end is performance based. Based upon what criteria? What are some specifics?
Great advice 👍
I wouldn't go by price, and if I did then I would look at how much marketing they do because that's going to be a Major player in the price (as well as the salary for all the bean counters who only wants to cut corners to increase profits). 🤷🏼♂️😄
It was actually a funny thing today from Jimmy Kimmel where they stood on the sidewalk and asked people if they wanted to try the new iPhone.
Behind their back they cleaned their old and put on a new cover and handed it back, and they were all really impressed with the new technology. 😂
*"High-end" is a phrase which is used with multiple meanings.* Many people use it as a marker for _social status_ , so in that case price really is the topic. Here Paul is trying to use it to mean "audiophile", that is, a product for someone who is a lover of sound.
👍Wait a minute! That’s an EXCELLENT point.
@@clickbeetle2720 I like that thought.
@@clickbeetle2720like all good words, audiophile too is maligned and lost its true meaning. All this indicates world is dominated by fools.
In this case Paul is spot on! Price has zero to do with what is considered "high-end". I have heard $60,000 speakers set up in a proper room and everything and they sounded like crap. I have heard a $399 speakers in a hotel room sound spectacular. It runs the gamut. High-end is performance as Paul said and price doesn't always equal performance.
The other thing about what is considered "high-end" unfortunately is what self-proclaimed "audiophiles" say what is considered "high-end" and that is always based on price. The other problem with that is that it is dynamic, it changes every week to every day. Example: That amp or preamp or DAC or speakers or turntable or whatever you just bought for say $5000 or $10,000 or $20,000, etc. because everyone in a stupid "audiophile" forum said was "high-end" and if you don't have it you are not one of them? Yeah, the minute you buy it and tell everyone you did is the minute it becomes considered a pile of cheap junk and "you should have gotten this instead". Part of the point is do NOT listen to "audiophiles" or look on forums in this hobby either. Do your own research and talk to folks in the know who do not advertise.
Please tell us what brand and model these crap speakers were please...
@@alanpatterson820 I don't recall the model because it was about 5 years ago, but the brand was Magico in that particular case. Keep in mind that just because one model of speaker within a line is bad doesn't necessarily mean they are all bad. Designs change over the years. Also, it could have been a bad set up, one can't tell just by looking. Bad or good setups don't reveal themselves until one listens. An example of this is Paradigm. I found the ultimate speakers for me in the Paradigm Studio V5s in my opinion (fortunately, this was back when could spend months demoing the crap out of oneself. Sadly, that is now history). Then they brought in a new designer from some high school or something and came out with new lines. Being curious I heard their top shelf speaker models and not counting room setup, they were awful! Sounded like listening to two transistor radios. I thought a driver wasn't working only to learn that was the native signature. I'll never figure out why a company would want to kill their most popular product or whatever. One excuse I got was the reason was due to the cabinet being hard to manufacture, the rounded back (it was done in house like everything for the Studio and Signature lines). The new lines are all squared cabinets. I also thought though that they could not be nearly as hard as those funny looking things B&W make that look more at home on the bow of a sailing ship than in a room. (No, I'm not knocking those, they are good speakers, just a little limited in what they sound good with).
I have heard the Paradigm Personas and the Premiers, both sounded terrible to me, but I have yet to hear the Founders line. Those might sound good, I don't know.
There’s at least 1 digital products company with 3 letter brand name with absurd prices for extremely subpar performance. There’s a lot of folks that define them as “high end” but I doubt most have actually done SxS comparison with actual high end digital equipment.
There’s a company just down the road from PS Audio, that I suspect Paul’s comment was referring to. They make amps & preamps priced more than many homes. They have really exceptionally cnc’d cases. The electronics inside that case are a series of PCB’s assembled by pick n place automation then the PCB’s are connected by ribbon cables. Essentially built like a cheap computer and the sound presentation is closer to a Pioneer receiver than a quality amp. I suspect most consumers consider them “high-end” 🤦♂️
The reason you see variation in price so much are tons of differences. Some manufacturers have pretty outside casing but the guts on the inside are junk. They do this also with car audio. Some manufacturers like Parasound used to have parts made overseas with cheaper labor. They can us high quality parts but save on the labor and that is what makes their 11,000 amp sound like a 20 to 25k amp from a different brand. In the United States the labor is very expensive with pension, unemployment, insurance, etc. Also if manufacturer is smaller then when they buy parts the parts are mor expensive because they don't have order volume to get costs down. When parts companies sell items in bulk they can do on smaller margins of profit. Another thing that can happen is a brand name gets bought out and has bad vintage years or decades of product. This happened to Mcintosh. The company was putting out quality and then got bought out and that person mismanaged things so the product offerings weren't that good and took awhile to get back on track. That is why certain vintage years of product are highly coveted and others are not. Sometimes a brand is bought and they just rape the brand. What does that mean? it's like Breyers ice cream the ingredients used to be pure but now it's a bunch of chemicals on back. After an equity type company bought them they kept the name and prices but switched to junk ingredients. Bottom line due your research and ask lots of questions especially when you start spending tend to hundreds of thousands on a system. If you buy junk for 300 or 500 bucks it's not the end of the world. There are lots of scammers out there at all price ranges. Look for independent reviews that are not paid reviews and not real short and basic. Those are often shills for a company fake pumping the product. I like companies that have been in business awhile just because they have proven quality over time ( unless they get sold or something else happens ) and they stand behind their product.
I buy whatever sound good (to my ears) no matter the cost.... sometimes within my budget :) High-End... Yes, I think soo.
Hmmm.. I understand what you're saying Paul - and I agree with you. But you haven't really answered the question. What is it about the SOUND that makes a product high end? Surely there is a spectrum of performance ranging from, er, rubbish to transcendental. Is there a clear point on that spectrum where you move from average to high end? Or is it just a matter of opinion?
Excellent response Paul, a whole lot of silly audiophiles tend to think price decides what is high end or not, when it solely has to do with performance. They will buy complete trash sounding gear if it is priced high enough.
Hell yeh brother!
It is a great time to be an audiophile.
You can have a great audio experience with $1.5k. And if you wish and have the resources you can also have a great experience for $1.5m.
You can have a great sports car for $30k and if you wish and have the resources you can have a great sports car for $3m.
I could have tons of fun in a used Porsche Boxster and given the resources thoroughly enjoy a GTA T.50.
After purchased a DAC from PS audio and Cardas Clear cables... My system it's sooooo sexyyy
High end probably means something different for different listeners. In my experience you need to spend a fair amount of money i.e over 20 k to design a revealing system with a wide sound stage, good instruments separation and holographic sound.
Yes Sir.
I would prefer to use the term “end game” than “high end.” High end is a loaded term with no set meaning for anyone. People can disagree on what is a “high end” product as there is no definition of high end and certainly no agreement on a price point where it begins. “End game” at least in my definition, is personal to the consumer. It speaks to how far you will go down the audio rabbit hole. That could be financial as in an unwillingness to spend over $10,000 for a speaker or a recognition that you just can’t hear the difference between a $10,000 piece of equipment and one costing far more. Who cares if, on paper, a piece of equipment is better if you can’t hear it???
The other aspect of term “high end” that I don’t like is that it implies that high end equipment will address all of your needs. It won’t. Speakers are a good example of this. “High end” speakers will not automatically address room size, room configuration issues, sonic qualities of the room, ideal placement within the room, or address any limitations you may have on where the speakers can be placed in your room for reasons like SAF. A “high end” DAC is not going to magically transform your music in all likelihood if it doesn’t fit in with all the other pieces in your electronic chain. “High end” does little to address the work you, as an audiophile, need to put in to make your system meet your needs in your listening environment.
Personally, I’d take the term “high end” and toss it out the nearest window.
I had to learn the hard way😊
I wish my Schiit Bifrost 2 was a high-end dac
but despite its high performance, I'm still not sure
Enjoying and appreciating what one has is the greatest investment in just about anything. Plus there's hedonic treadmill / habituation. As I've gone up the audio chain price/quality-wise, I've found greatly diminishing returns, as my early, more modest gear was of good sonic quality.
In my opinion, I think the amplifier is the first thing you need to get right. You can have 200 dollars speakers sound high end on a good amplifier. 1000 dollar speakers can be seriously underwhelming on a low end amp.
What would one have to do to obtain your list of the overpriced ones and the high end stuff that is reasonably priced.
Well, here's a question for ya. If you're a person who's not familiar with what high-end equipment sounds like, but want to achieve it in your home, how do you know when you've arrived?
1. You'll never "arrive" - it's always a journey
2. Visit a audio show or a high-end dealer
3. Use the "send back" policy from PS Audio or others to try out stuff at home
P, SMSL DO200, here. Best, D.
Those of us that know designers and the quest for simple great sound .. can tell you to start with vintage american products or vintage japanese..or ...see where im going..just like race cars.. modern options are somewhat better...but that comes with a price.. I suggest you start simple..and start enjoying music again..little by little..youll find expensive crap..and expensive gold as you climb the ladder of real audio . Good luck..
Paul, would you please tell me who that guy is?
You have high end prices, and then you have high end performance.
In other words, the starting point of high end is the price of a PS Audio Sprout on the pre-owned market.
Adrian from Audio Excellence did a good bad ugly review on Legacy speakers and one of the ugly complaints from audiophile reviews was they weren't expensive enough for what they are. 🤷♀️ Crazy world it is 😊🙄
I would agree that it’s not about price it’s about performance but , then how do you judge any audio component or speaker based on sound quality ? Well although there are certain aspects of sound that are important there is some aspects of sound that are subjective and personal preference. I have my criteria’s that are important in sound quality and someone else may have other aspects of sound quality that are more important to them ! For me first is the ability to reproduce the natural tones of instruments, followed closely with detail or resolving power. There are many highly resolving audio products but do not reproduce the sound of instruments with a natural balanced sound and sound very artificial and unrealistic. So tone quality must be number one in my eye. If it does that well at least it’s musical and listenable.
All I know is that my cheap Chinese amp sounds WAY better than anything I could afford in previous decades.
Yup, tired of Chinese bashing. Don't misunderstand, they have a lot of junk like everyone else. But you get some good cost effective audio gear
Who is Joe Schmuckle, does anyone know? 🙂
Joe Schmuckle from Schmuckle's Hi-Fi audio, manufacturers of the Schmuckle DAC, very resolving.
“ Hey Paul
Who Sets The Substandard Threshold for High End Stereo “
Paul “ Expensive Doesn’t Equate Quality and Quality Does Not Equate
Expensive “”
Hence Who Sets The Substandard Threshold of
High End Stereos…..!😮
Topping is by no means high end.....that we can all agree on 🙃
Name names, please!
Without examples though... The question remains unanswered. How would the average person listen to a set of speakers or DAC and say "yes" that's a "High end" product??? That would just be their "average person, ears" opinion.
McIntosh. Sorry it’s the only answer for me. LOL
I think as a matter of language this is just mistaken. "High end" refers to price. So something could be high-end and still be a piece of crap. Calling something "high-end" is not an evaluation of quality. It describes what market it belongs to. The same thing applies to watches or to any other consumer good. Designer companies make high-end handbags. That doesn't mean these are higher quality handbags than inexpensive handbags
In my experience, first, never get a china based company dac at any price. They simply rely on number and measurements, a meh product. Until you hear chord, ps audio, etc. that really take their time and know what sounds great and not just numbers. Youll know high end audio when you hear it. Separation, imaging, depth, noise floor, sound stage, etc. are more important than any measuring device.
Bose, not high end.
if the product is status symbol - regardless if it sounds good - then its the high end ......
How fast does your car need to go before it's considered a fast car? Your grandma might think anything over 70 mph is fast.
Yep - it's a moving target. Same is with audio.
We Are Back Yet Once Again With
The Mr. Rogers of
High Infidelity None Other Than The All Knowing The All Seeing Guru Himself
Paul McGowan 😮
Where We Take a Journey
Through The Out Skirts Of
Pauls Storage Room of
Nuts and Bolts as
Paul Meanders Through His Junk Drawers
and Reads One of The Millions of Letters Paul Gets Daily as Only The Male Species of
Cro/magnum Seem Too
Write ✍️ Paul
With Yet a Heart Wrenching Moving Question That Has Kept Me Up At Night As Well
“” Hey Paul
Who Set The Substandard
Threshold For
High End Stereo “” 😮
Please Paul We All Know You Are Tightly Wound and Just One Letter
Short of Completely Loosing Your
Mind….So Be Kind Tender and Gentle With Your
Answer Paul As Only You
Can Do…..
You should have proofread your comment- line 11 and 19. You’re not as clever as you think…
Funny, if your feel that way, why you here.
First of all, old vintage receivers are not high end. Just because you wasted 6000usd for receiver doesnt make it high end. Buy integrated , modern. Thats good start
Well. Depends..Please dont be biased. Products need to work well together.. I have early onkyo receiver I love and I have project/one integrated I love..and stacks of expensive gear those 2 easily surpass..but..its the law of deminishing returns..and many people throw money at products but get upset when they hear my 50 year old system.. its not fair comparison. I LOVE AUDIO.. BUILD AUDIO..REPAIR..AND MOD AUDIO.. ALL MY LIFE.. yes yes..I own a soundcraftsmen m5002..and yamaha m80 they sit in a pile with carver amp.. I play the amp I built in 1988 ..rockford fosgate rf 2000. Haha..
Time to give me an interview paul.
@@davidstevens7809
Rockford Fosgate! 😆
@@davidstevens7809i listened to so called vintage . My modern full balanced amp with A class preamp sounds better. Better resolution, better transparency, better holography
@@HareDeLune did you know they made a home amp? Some were badged hafler JF2000
IMO "High End" is not a meaningful term. Just like "significant" isn't a meaningful word, such as claiming their amp is "significantly" better than another amp. These are imprecise terms and add little value because everyone has their own definition of what is "high end" and what isn't. I think we let these kinds of imprecise words steer us in the wrong direction. My advice - audition the components you are considering buying and buy the best sounding component you can afford within your budget. Who cares if someone else would label it "high end"?
How do you even know if what you're listening to sounds good? It's all completely subjective.
Paul's not gonna name names when it comes to expensive crap, but I will: Bose. Aside from their noise cancelling, their audio equipment is absolute garbage. It baffles me that people think it sounds good.
How about naming some of that inexpensive stuff that IS high-end??
High-end marketing
@@HareDeLune Philharmonic speakers are high end at reasonable costs
It doesn't exist except on asr forum ,anything genuine high end is thousands these days ,that is what he means by inexpensive not 200 bucks
Dodged the question. High end means being at the limit of what is possibe and this comes at a high price. In cars that could mean ultimate proformance or ultra comfort or even both.
With your reasoning why do the Ferrari guys say a Corvette Z06 that is faster than their car at a lower price is not a high end car? I think price has to play a lot to the term "high end". Can a guy on welfare own a high end stereo by your definition? So everyone with a $700 spout really has a high end system? I have seen a $25 Timex watch keep better time then a Rolex watch so because the Timex performs better it is now a high end watch? Something doesn't sound right. I think this is a question you should have avoided or is this the 1% that is not true?
I hate Joe Smuckle Audio