PS Audio Power Plant P12 Measurements
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- There have been a lot of questions regarding proper measurements of the PS Audio Power Plant P12. We're here to show how the measurements should be done and what those results are. Join PS Audio's CEO and Chief engineer to find out the real story.
- Наука та технологія
Clearly the video is a response to the ASR review of the P12. I mention this because some of the commentors don’t seem to be aware of that.
Instead of countering the arguments made in the ASR review, the video is focused on “let’s show you how and what we measure” (partly using multimeters and partly on the display of their own device). As a result, in my and (according to the comments below) many others’ view, it falls short of countering the arguments made by the ASR. In retrospect, from a marketing point, it would have been better not to respond and leave some doubt that there may be some tangible benefits overlooked by the ASR review.
Sounds like you should be making PS Audio's PR decisions for them. IMO this video only further proved that these guys have a poor grasp on how input AC affects equipment with proper power supplies (hint: it doesn't, and Amir proved it).
This is a lame demonstration compared to what Audiosciencereview did. PS Audio is trying to sell expensive snake oil. If they don't follow up with evidence, proper measurements this looks really really bad for PS Audio, creates major loss of trust.
I think they may be smoking plants.
@@r423sdex that makes even an AM radio sound better.
You measured regulation, not impedance. An Engineer would know this.
They did the impedance calculation at around 9:30. An Engineer would know this.
Keep in mind when someone preaches the wondrous magic of Audioquest cables, you will get videos like this to "prove' the wondrous magic of power conditioning. Amir: 1, PS Audio: 0
Holding your breath for the follow up to that inductor coupling and its merits in assessing RF interference in terminated speaker cables cliffhanger from Danny, Gene ?
Sometimes quality cables do make an audible difference. Enough of a difference to justify their price? That is up for debate...
After begging for revenue on a Go Fund Me a year ago, you must have recovered well. You’re well enough to go and try to ruin someone else’s business. Didnt your own hardship teach you any humility?
@@veniceog that’s rough … at least he is willing to speak out about PSA and AQ snakeoil
@@veniceog One could argue, that selling an expensive product under a false premise is as dishonest as it gets and getting caught eventually is what usually follows. Whether it makes an audible difference is of no consequence - output impedance orders of magnitude higher, than stated is, just like evident noise and harmonics spectrum contradicting "regeneration" claims, which would likely entail unit enclosure the size of a washing machine.
Classic BS Audio
Well Amir has responded to this nonsense presented here.
So in conclusion $6000 for a P12 is a total waste of money -It effectively does nothing.
Come on. If you're going to respond, do it properly. This just makes me more skeptical that this is just snake oil.
Wow, I am sorry to say that PS Audio is losing a lot of credibility with this response. Paul does not address any of Amir's points and in no way proves that this device is of help in an audio setup. Sad...
I feel like this video just helped confirm ASRs conclusion.
Indeed. Paul might have been smarter not to draw further attention to the ASR review and just pretend it doesn't exist. This woo non-reply doesn't do PS Audio any credit.
@@thisisnev agreed - In fact this video actually does much more damage to PS Audio’s reputation than the ASR review/measurements. On this issue they either apologise for getting it badly wrong or they will simply loose trust across the industry. This P12 saga has completely opened my eyes. This could badly damage their reputation forever.
I was just about to upgrade my Powerplant…definitely seeking other options now.
@Tobi Gibbons Well, if they are useless (which is very likely the case here it seems) that's not even the real issue. The point is that even if you ARE going to release an entirely useless product to market that no one really needs, then the least you can do is make absolutely sure that it actually DOES whatever useless thing you claim that it's going to do - and that it does it right. If you can't even manage to get that part right...then you're in very serious trouble.
Hi Paul, quick question. Why did you not measure the High Current outlet? This video is doing more damage than good for your brand. I think PS Audio is in need of a new head of marketing.
It’s amazing how PS audio still haven’t actually addressed the objective data produced by ASR. It’s not opinion at all it’s measurable time and time again. So the results shown hold much more value compared to vacuous marketing claims made by PS audio marketing team.
@@srmitch9260 I think it's time for PS Audio to finally stop dancing around these issues (that are clearly out in the public forum now) and just hire Amir to come on-board as a design consultant for their NEXT generation of products. That's the single best thing that could come out of all of this - for everyone. I sure hope they are wise enough to do that?
The measurement of how overpriced it is based on what it does is about $5000.
As an electronic engineer I was disappointed with this demonstration. Bob looks uncomfortable throughout. Then I watched the Audio Science Review response which confirmed my disappointment. I normally applaud PS Audio's commitment to excellence but pushing these power regenerators without detailed convincing testing evidence supported by blind testing does PS Audio no favours at all.
It would have worked better if they used their $1000 power cables.
PS audio have dug themselves into the ground with this video… it actually makes them look even worse than they already so with a mountain of objective data against them which they have no response for.
@@srmitch9260 True. This isn't a battle that they are ever going to win (they should have been smart enough to know that right from the very start). I just hope they are wise enough now to stop fighting about it and just hire Amir on as a design consultant. He could be so incredibly helpful with their next generation of products.
Oh dear Paul, you have undermined any authority you have by not answering the issues that ASR brought up.
Why should we buy any of your products if you will not answer the concerns raised about the efficacy of your equipment?
Exactly. If you can't prove that ASR's measurements and conclusions are wrong, just shut up. Stop discrediting yourself further...sad.
You are seriously risking making yourselves a laughing stock here.
A quick apology to both your customers and ASR would have been a better response.
I had planned on buying some PSA equipment but their Power Plant products are so insulting that I can’t find myself buying anything from them. I have been in military and medical electronics development and manufacturing and this video is ridiculous.
Spot on
Exactly
It’s shocking. Who knows after this video basically making themselves look even worse, that their other products aren’t doing what they are supposed to be doing. PS audio better step up and produce some objective data and tests to show what exactly we are paying for.
YESSSSSSSSS
you're digging your own grave
RIP ps audio...
You got burn and bad. Im looking for a way to file charges against you in EU as P12 owner. Your specs are basically full on lies aka scams and that is an criminal act in EU. This is not ok Paul. Not at all.
In the ASR response video, Amir speculates that the P12 is only doing partial regeneration since the noise signature is very similar for the mains and the P12. Paul admits to that in his forum. I suppose if you read between the lines in the documentation, you might be able to figure that out, but I think is very deceptive to call this a regenerator, as it is actually a hybrid/partial regenerator and more accurately some form of reconditioner. The EU law is a little stricter about false advertising.
If this was a debunking video about amir's analisys you debunked anything, if anything you showed you don't know how to analyse your own equipents. Always liked your videos, but this is a huge no-no.
Lame attempt of trying to debunk a critical review of one of your products. By avoiding the negative issues from the critic you, Paul, give the appearance that the criticism is justified
I was considering purchasing a PS Audio Directstream Dac but after seeing this I would not even consider a PSA device. Truly shocking
I also read PMCG’s forum post re AVR … again absolute joke from someone who posts about audio and appears sincere.
This video was embarrassing and not proper test equipment used to refute anything. … says a lot about your design process.
Amir wipes the floor with you and you resort to slander and swipes
Would not even consider a PSA device. Your pricing model is ridiculous
My advice stay off YT in future
It regenerates $6000 into a very poor boat anchor.
Would have been nice to see real test equipment connected to the output instead of using the internal P12 display for the AC waveform and THD.
Yes no scope noise measurements etc on his test bench
Agreed. An external oscilloscope connected to the output of it that showed the output waveform would've been nice to see!
ikr? Using the equipment to measure the equipment. "Its perfect because it says so! See, it says it right there..."
@@pauldavies6037 There was at least a couple of scopes on the shelf above the desk.
But, yes, a real scope should have been used.
I have a Techtronix scope at home and I can verify that the screen is a good indicator of what I see on my scope. Too bad you don’t have a different line coming in that shows how filthy your voltage is coming into the building. The way form that I have at any outlet even my audio wall outlet is a horror show next to a beautiful sign waves that I get at the output.
I used to own two P 300s which were your first power plant. The first time I heard the differences was one of the five George dropping moments in my audio history.one of the jaw dropping moments in my 60 years of being and what are you enthusiast
I find it hard to believe that in the case of a reviling high-end stereo system. Wouldn't it already have a well-filtered & regulated DC power supply that would solve these problems? My point is is it really necessary to spend thousands of dollars to regulate such a small amount of AC voltage differences?🤓
It's always good to add crazy expensive bling to make believe high performance and dazzle the uninitiated. Like adding a huge spoiler and big wheels on cars. Will it really go faster and handle better? Makes it look the part though!
No
In my SET amp I can hear the difference between rectifier tubes. What you are suggesting would mean *each* piece of equipment in your system would need redesigned power supplies - the cost would not be insignificant. The point of a power conditioner or regenerator is to deliver “better” power to each component.
@@PanAmStyle And does this device do this adequately for the price it asks? Is cleaning up the 'dirty mains' by say 5% worth all that?
@@jabezhane That’s what a listening evaluation and one’s individual budget will determine.
Getting my popcorn ready while I wait for Amir's response ;)
@@BrentLeVasseur I just posted this video link on the ASR website lol
Who is Amir and where is that link? (What is his channel, what does he do, etc?)(I've never heard of the guy, but you're not the only one mentioning his name in these comments so I'm curious... What am I missing?)
A lot of sales talk but not substantiated. Loved Amir’s take on this and exposing the weaknesses on these unnecessary products.
@@JoeJ-8282 Audio science review, he tore this a new arse..
@@chefsteve8381 OK. I see. I'm gonna have to check that 3rd party review out I guess, because knowing a good bit about electricity and how it works myself, I thought that this product made perfect sense in this video, at least in theory, and of course as long as it ACTUALLY does what he was claiming it does by simply showing the front panel display and what it (supposedly) does... But it still would've been MUCH better and even more believeable if that output waveform and distortion was shown on an external dedicated oscilloscope, at least in addition to the front panel display!
Even with that being said however, the actual difference in any component's sound quality that this product may make, (debateable, I know), is most likely quite small, and would probably realistically ONLY be noticed under extreme conditions, and with super revealing, super high-end gear and speakers, AND with a fully trained ear from someone who knows exactly what differences to listen for AND who actually IS actively listening for those differences, but it probably would NOT make any noticeable difference to "ordinary" level equipment and speakers, and/or to anyone who wasn't REALLY carefully listening for any claimed differences...
This product is obviously only intended for those people who want to get that very last 0.01% or so of sound quality out of their system... AND they already have the equipment caliber level needed to even be able to sense/hear those differences in the first place... Obviously most people don't have that. (ability OR equipment)
I’m unsubscribing to your channel.
Nothing like blurring the facts with hyperbole.
More like with sinusoid ;)
The "miles and miles of stuff" between you and the power company comment ignores the fact that the power is coming from medium and high tension lines that are at anywhere from 6kV to 1MV of voltage, and the power you use doesn't come into existence until it meets the round metal can hanging out on the telephone pole in front of your house. Relative to your amplifier, the pole transformer's impedance and short circuit current are somewhere between *OMG* and "Call the fire department!" so it can be considered a perfect voltage source unless there are lots of other people being greedy with the power. Any drops you have will then be determined by the feeders to your power panel (usually not an issue unless you have a 2kW class-A amplifier) and the romex behind the wall outlet. If you are having substantial voltage drop issues, the regenerator will "solve" those, but at the expense of having even MORE voltage drop as it has to perform an impedance matching between the sagging outlet and what you are powering with it as the regenerator will pull more current than the amp would have. This will have the unintended consequence of arcing, melting the plug, welding the prongs into the outlet, etc. If its already overloaded, the regenerator will just make it that much worse. I cant see any hi-fi setups that could have that issue outside of something like a line array of REL subs or something, but if you did, the regenerator would be a very poor solution. Better would be to call a qualified electrician to install a dedicated feeder and outlet so you can have all the happy volts your equipment needs.
This.
"I cant see any hi-fi setups that could have that issue outside of something like a line array of REL subs or something" - I'm seeing a surprising number of people now installing multiple subwoofers, especially in home theaters. 6kW of subs may be more common than you think.
But I do also think that the best solution is not an add-on box this side of the room outlet. Best to get a qualified electrician out and run dedicated lines from the power company outside the house/condo to one's listening room. You may even need to upgrade the panel.
You are missing the fundamental issue that the absolutely lowest impedance (as this unit attempts) is not really a good thing. It causes more issues than it solves, hence why they created multi-wave to add back in harmonics which is essentially reducing the impedance.
Bingo! My dad is an electrician. We ran 2 dedicated 20amp circuits on 10awg wire for each amp. That’s the best power you’re going to get. Not this snake oil they’re trying to sell.
Now I fell lucky that I got a distribution transfo on a pole in my yard 😅
What does multi-wave effectively do ... wait for it ... wait for it ... wait for it ... it effectively increases the impedance of the AC line. So you pay a ton of money to reduce harmonics and have the impedance reduced .... so that you can increase the harmonics (multi-wave) and effectively increase the AC impedance (multi-wave). You guys know that actual working engineers watch these videos?
Care to explain?
Do working engineers actually listen to the equipment? Changing the multi-wave setting changes the sound stage...something that is easily heard. It is the only reason why I have one. For instance I like a huge, wide stage when I listen to orchestra music, and a smaller deeper one for most vocals. Anything it does on a visual piece of measuring equipment is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. I ONLY care how my equipment sounds to me.
Sergey, have you actually listened to a system with a powe plant in it? If you have and you think it is snake oil, fine. If you haven't your opinion is worthless.
@@jerrystecher6782 Claims without evidence. Dismissed.
@@jerrystecher6782 "Do working engineers actually listen to the equipment?" I am getting so tired of this statement. Of course they do. You think a design engineer would invest the hundreds of hours and the R&D expense on an audio product and not even listen to it? That's absurd! But they also know what the numbers mean and how they correlate to established sound quality standards. Plus they know what current electronics technology is capable of. So if the bench numbers are poor, why bother with critical listening at this point? You know the design is not good enough yet. Keep working on it.
This test is pointless as the wrong test point is used. The test should be on the DC output from the audio equipment power supply. Any well designed power supply will measure exactly the same voltage and quality with or without this expensive box. The final test is on audio quality. If an improvement can really be heard then spend your money on better equipment with a good power supply. This box is a solution looking for a problem, a problem that does not exist in quality audio equipment.
"Any well designed power supply " - the phrase _well designed_ is doing a lot of work there.
I don’t think many power regenerator owners from PS Audio would agree with you Geoff. Seems to me that you’d rather use your eyes than your ears to get a musical experience that you can agree with. Spend your money on more test equipment surrounding you’re a whole set-up 24/7. That’ll be a giant help for you😂
@@TheDanEdwards Nah. Your toaster's power supply does the job just fine.
@@TheDanEdwards Power supply design is very well understood and all competent manufacturers os audio equipment use power supplies that can handle dirty mains. Is PS equipment sounds better with this expensive magic box then their power supplies are very poor.
@@stimpy1226 you are correct, it is called confirmation bias.
This video is an embarrassment to PS Audio, please do some more !. So basically it does absolutely nothing !.
Why is PS Audio is not responding to any of the many valid criticisms posted below?
Because they can't without admitting they are totally full of shit.
@Tobi Gibbons its America. No such option.
I watched the reaction of Amir to this measurements and what he says makes sense. I hope PS Audio is capable of giving some convincing argumenst to prevent me from starting to think they are in the snake oil business...
They sell a pair 33k speaker cables...
Think that boat has sailed … shocking amateur video
@@sergeysmelnik Noise Grabber, that magic LED blinking lite, talk about charlatans,Oy Vey
Is there a reason why the high current output wasn't tested? Because this is the output that has come into question. It has poor resistance and doesn't have as much burst power demand as a wall outlet. Also, why are we trusting a front panel display that has limited accuracy? Should we be using something much more accurate to measure this?
Yes because the impedance is higher than the others.
Surely you mean the 'high *current* output rather than the high voltage?
@Scott Stumpf Yeah Scott, I'm shocked that they're testing it this way to show how the product works.
Probably most people are not aware PS Audio sneaked in a firmware release that fixes the issue with bypassing the inrush current protection of the high current outputs. So ASR's measurements and analysis were right on that.
@@4everB2 Thats interesting, very good to know, thanks Geert.
In uk our Ring main sockets in our houses are rated at 30A 240v we are not getting voltage drop using hifi. I think this is just a waste of money.
Yeah, unsubscribing.
Since this is an HiFi channel may I suggest everyone listen to the Doors “The End” while pondering the end of PS audio’s credibility.
I don't understand what is supposed to be taken from this. The ASR video clearly shows the impact to audio equipment. This doesn't seem to address any of that.
This is a lame demonstration compared to what Audiosciencereview did. You guys are trying to sell expensive snake oil. If you don't follow up with evidence, proper measurements this looks really really bad for PS Audio, creates major loss of trust.
I have one and it’s night and day difference, people who can not hear a difference is your system isn’t revelling enough!
PS Audio can't afford an Audio Precision Analyzer? I know the ears are the most important factor but I also thought professional audio gear designers would use precise reference measuring tools as a guideline.
Well they own at least one. Paul often has it in the background of his videos. I mean what an opportunity here. PS Audio could have used the same test gear ASR used rather than a couple of commodity multimeters.
A lot of unsubstantiated claims there Paul. It is a solution looking for a problem and an environmental waste. Audio equipment power supplies really don't care about the purity of the incoming waveform. A slightly distorted waveform may create a tiny little bit of additional heat for an iron core transformer but so what. And a SMPS doesn't care less what the input power looks like. A half an ohm of line resistance is no big deal but you make it out like it is without proof. Well, what about the circuit that includes the soft start, How much internal resistance does that circuit introduce? Please stop with the fear mongering of the power that feeds audio equipment. Its senseless unsubstantiated nonsense leading middle aged men to fork over excess wealth absolutely needlessly. Its all in your head. Yes, more snake oil.
So, I get that the plant provides more stable voltage regardless of current, but why is that an issue. Eg each piece of equipment I own has its own power supply, that can deal with voltage variations from the city power. Why does providing more consistent power matter to devices that are designed to perform with city power?
There was a talk at the 2019 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest by Ken Rendel on exactly this subject that I recorded. ua-cam.com/video/-6G3WEKcm0E/v-deo.html
It shouldn't matter unless the device connected has a very poorly designed power supply.
Usually power amplifiers don’t have regulated power supply circuit inside and if this was a real issue, PS audio could simply add some high power voltage regulators inside their power amps. In actuality that would be even better as you would avoid the power cable impedance completely.
@@ThinkingBetter
Add to their own equipment that's fine, but what about the dozens of other brands. I have three different brands in my system.
@@Mark-lq3sb The issue of mains power wiring impedance is only a relevant topic for the power amplifier. Of course, almost all power amps operate without internal voltage regulation and fluctuations can cause some tiny fraction of a dB impact. Good power amps have solid banks of capacitors that will smoothen any momentary voltage fluctuation and fluctuations in the voltage that spans over longer time won’t be actually audible anyway as it will be a tiny fraction of a dB of amplification drop when playing really loud. This topic is most real when you use a crappy amplifier with bad internal power supply where it becomes extra sensitive to such issue. Great amps have great capacitor banks for great voltage stabilization!
Poor Bob, looks like a hostage video
This response video, combined with Amir follow up vide, is causing BS Audio much more damage than Amir's original review of this directshit regulator....
Direct shit regulator ....dude, you won the internet that day.
Paul goes “we maintain the quality of the sine wave, may be I could flip the camera around and lets see the distortion levels”
Viewer expectations- “wow its gonna be a state of the art apparatus to measure the sine wave”
Viewer when the camera zooms into the touch screen - meh… nothing shouts scam more than this.
I saw a guy with an oscilloscope measure the sign waves before and after the connection of a PS Audio regenerator.
Before had an ugly sign wave with flat spots. After was perfectly smooth.
These devices do as they are advertised and Paul's explanation of what they do makes sense to me as an electrician
the designer's priceless comment on how the screen's annoying...probably shouldn't have bothered with it then lol.
I find it amusing to watch PS Audio attempt to compete with the audio competence of ASR.
Amir’s rebuttal video nails it when he reveals (just by looking at the input spectrum vs output spectrum) that this device is not a true regenerator. Even if it were, there would be no detectable improvement for your system.
So the device is shown to be both (worse than) useless and misrepresented.
There’s a sucker born every minute. Some of them become PS Audio customers?
Two things (at least) came to mind: the ASR review was not referred to specifically, which allows the uncurious to not seek out what prompted this vague response video, and therefore wouldn’t be informed of the points ASR is making nor given a chance to be convinced of the arguments presented. Secondly, since the ASR video is not referred to directly, there is no obligation to answer nor dispute ASR’s testing method or contention that “clean” or “dirty” power entering another unit is going to be handled by its own power supply and thus what happens before it is of no consequence.
So you're defending their deflection of responsibility to answer all the questions Amir had? This video seems like a long-winded way of backpedaling after they got backed into a corner by someone who actually understands how audio equipment works.
Can’t help thinking this may be a fulcrum point for PS Audio and their fortunes. Time they apologised immediately before the damage is irreversible.
What damage?
The single best "apology" they can make here (to their customers and to the audiophile community) is to simply just hire Amir to come on-board at PS Audio as a design consultant. Clearly, he has very valuable insight that could be of tremendous value to the company going forward.
Seems like this video didn’t really address Amir’s issues. Using a dmm to measure this stuff is fine. But Amir was using far different equipment Oscilloscope etc to show noise introduced etc. Using the dmm is kinda only part of the story.
Who in the world is Amir? And what did he say?
@@JoeJ-8282Audio Science Review on UA-cam
@@NalinKhurb Is that the channel? I'm gonna have to check that out.
@@JoeJ-8282 He is the reason this video exists 😂
Its also a forum where this product is talked about as well
the P12 once introduced to audio system makes it sound "snakeoily". Similar to adding audioquest cables.
Thats funny cause bs audio sells the snake oil audioquest cables on their site. They have a pair for 33k
I would not employ such a chief engineer. Why don't you show results on the audio spectrum analyser. So what you are saying is you need to match the transmission line else it will.... what a load of crap. You can get by with a uninterruptible power supply (UPS) at a fraction of the cost and have the same zero results.
Ridiculous! YOU GUYS SHOULD BE THOROUGHLY ASHAMED
Dear Paul, I understand that these power plants might help if someone has a device with a too small power supply. But how about PS Audio devices? Aren't they all designed with high quality big enough power supplies? It seems you and your company also use your power plants with your own devices. Why? Do your PS Audio devices have bad power supplies which need external help? What am I missing here?
It's not for equipment power supplies. It's for the incoming power coming out of your wall..
So if a piece of equipment has a internal power supply that is to small, a Powerplant won't do much to help that..
It's all about getting solid clean power to your equipment.
@@purplehazeffc So Paul is just lying? ua-cam.com/video/C8Gede0IQio/v-deo.html
@John Bravo Sure, you don't need the Powerplant if you're willing to settle for lower quality sound. I have the P12 and I'm telling you that the sound difference before and after is eye opening! It's worth the cost to have a Powerplant in your kit.
@@gregnagley3906 Then Greg, go ahead and settle this matter once for all, do the proper blind test, and prove to the whole world you can tell the difference, Amir would have to do a formal apology. You will be an Audiophile hero, I would buy the P12 for sure, and you will be remember forever as Golden-ear Greg
@@Lauren080508 No need for that. The difference in sound quality is clear enough that you can hear it as soon as the music starts. I didn't believe it before I bought the P12 just like the other naysayers on here, but when the music started what I heard was no mere imagination. I wish you had a chance to hear it yourself. You would become an instant believer.
See the response from Amir and you understand who know electricity and how to measure and who does not.
As a professional , educated electronic expert with over 20 years of field experience in servicing and maintaining studio equipment , DC/DC converters etc. i must say - WHAT DA.. F... ? HAHAHAHAHA
Every pro audio today uses SMPS with excelent rail regulation... Even older equipment had a quite good capacitor bank and regulated pre amp stages so that voltage "sag" can only impact peak power of device...We are not talking about NASA lab power line, or CERN equipment .. Audio Hi-Fi is meant to be listened at home ,so audiophoolery shouldn't be here in 2022..i thought it is eradicated by now :)
Cheers
I'm a big fan of Paul, the storyteller. I've found many of his videos helpful and authentic. In other words, he comes across as a good person! But for the first time, I must say this video raises doubts about how truly useful such product line is. Can't say I'm convinced about the P12 raison d'être! And its price tag is ludicrous vs what else one could buy to improve one's system. Just my two cents.
Richard Gray.
Agreed 100%
Man this video is so insulting. I wish Paul didn’t do this video.
this engineer is about to cry, so his voice trembles
This won't look good on his cv.
I really liked PS Audio. This is a real bummer on what they did on these substandard tests. It is always the right time to correct things. I hope they do and I would reconsider purchasing their products in the future. .
Instead of scolding Amir they should be hiring him as a design consultant to come on-board and help them improve their products going forward. He clearly has some very important insights that would be incredibly valuable towards an effort to make their NEXT generation of products far superior to what they are offering now. That's what really should be the result of all this back and forth. PS Audio: Please hire/retain Amir for this exact purpose. Everybody wins in that scenario.
Amateur hour. That LCD signal demo cracked me up.
I have had a long think about this... hmmm, I'm out, unsubscribed.
Looks like you need to do some proper measurements. Do not tell me what you have done, show me, and not with that little display on the front...You seem to have test equipment on the shelf, is it covered in dust?
I’m a little confused why we are expected to believe the figures shown on the screen of the products itself, when your adversary has claimed they aren’t correct.
I am not someone who believe measurements are the be all end all of components, especially with amps and speakers and what not. I feel if I like the way it sounds than I don’t care too much about how it measures. I do however enjoy learning about measurements. I couldn’t even dream of affording products like this or others that get tested, so I’m really just here out of interest.
That being said, a product like this exists almost entirely in the world of measurements. ASR showed measurements that do not improve any single aspect of performance. If you wanted to counter this than using the display on the actual component wasn’t the way to go. The first section of the video (when hooked up to the external meters) was effective. After that it was meaningless.
Not trying to take sides here. I don’t own any of your products but I also get annoyed by some of the people that will die on the hill of measurements over on ASR. I just thoroughly enjoy learning about the hobby, but I can’t see a way in which you’ve combated the current narrative against this product that’s going around.
because they didn't understand the testing done on ASR.
This video is silly, PS Audio is making a fool of themselves here
I'm currently (pun intended) watching the response to this response ua-cam.com/video/epIc-i390fg/v-deo.html. It's good to see a manufacturer's claims being investigated to expose the truth.
Man needs to decide if he wants UA-cam hits OR an audio company, because at the moment his narcissism is destroying his shit engineering gig, and vice versa.
It's obvious to anyone that understands electronics that these things can't possibly change anything about performance or sound quality. Not only that it runs quite hot, so is wasting power as well!
Biggest load of BS I ever heard. Debunked by many.. Waste of money..
Beware.. Amir from ASR is watching..
I agree about the low impedance compared to input line level but Amir's ASR tests show no improvements in noise levels only a double blind test would convince me of any improvements
I doubt humans could discern any noticeable difference. Perhaps it will protect your equipment from lightning strikes and power dips but thats the only reason I could think of to buy it.
Totally agree
@@Canadian_Eh_I in which case there's a lot of far cheaper devices than $4000, to protect against lightning surges.
That is because decreasing the impedance of the AC line will just about never reduce noise. There really is no justification for it. In most cases it will make it worse. That is why they add 3rd harmonic which effectively increases the impedance of the line.
@@Canadian_Eh_I Except it cannot protect from a full power dip.
So what you are saying, is that your power supplies in your electronics are so useless that you fiirst need to fix the incoming AC power to make them work properly
Maybe they should change the name to BS Audio.
Chief designer, well Bob !. Does it improve what comes out of my hifi system. Bob, did you really make something that does nothing. Paul, will you be taking this off the market and offering a refund.
ASR did real measurements of the p12 with proper equipment.
What are ‘real’ measurements?
So he says and that's all there is to it then. Good critical thinking skills.
@@nh18343 Can you answer the question please instead of straw manning it?
- What do you mean by ‘real’ measurements.
@@theaudiophilebarista2424 watch ASR's video "reviewing speakers - measurements and listening tests" where he refers to studies where measurements of speakers match listener preference
@@saschakrizsan7917 Look, I know both channels. I know what measurement are.
- Both videos do measurements. I just want to know what ‘real’ measurements are.
I stopped watching the moment 900 watts of resistive load was put into the test setup. Obviously it's going to sag the supply its 900w of resistive load. Question is how many of you listen to your amps at that level. Maybe it's relevant for PA systems, or for someone who just want to burn money because he has it. I won't be listening above 50W - 75W per channel and at these listening levels this doesn't matter. Anyway each to their own.
Plus when you look at the cost of the P12 it better be doing what is says on the tin. Not just some diluted version . Or worse still be doing nada . I to think Paul has done himself and the company A disservice by uploading A severely lacking explanation video with no defence of what your actually spending all those hard earned $$$$ for?
I really don't care about the signature of the sine wave coming from the socket because I mostly use switched mode power supplies in my devices. Even if I would only have half of the voltage or even dc, this is not important for me. If you use conventional power transformers this is also not very interesting for you if you have some head room left to get always enough power from the line.
And btw: it is not convenient to flatten the peaks of the sine wave, because conventional transformers live from the dV/dt. You loose induction if you flatten the curve and you treat your transformer with more heat load than necessary. So this multi-wave is not very convenient. You have to live with the current peaks through your rectifier and also your capacitors can handle it, if they dont have too much internal serial resistance.
If you flatten the curve and do not reduce peak voltage i assume dV/Dt must increase before and after the peak. I think that is what happens.
I agree with using SMPS in all your hifi. Most poweramps still have conventional PSUs though.
@@gioponti6359 You have to keep Vrms. The highest dV/dt is at zero crossing. The peak voltage is in general the point where dV/dt is the lowest. If you flatten the curve this situation becomes even worse.
Furthermore you torture your power transformer with 60 Hz harmonics which will increase the induction and iron core losses.
And btw: it is funny that PS does a lot of effort to reconstruct the sine wave of the voltage. And after it they try to tell you, that the redestruction of the sine wave by superposition of harmonics should be good as well.
@@gkdresden ok we have reached the ends of my sound understanding - i read your comments and understand and agree parts of them, the rest i accept and will think about. Tx
@@gioponti6359 it is not about the sound. It is about the input voltage of the power supply. It is not about the signal path. It is about the input power for the amplifier.
@@gkdresden
1) here with „sound“ I ment to say profound or rather „somewhat useful but limited“.
2) It is understood that the power supply is not the signal path; yet net voltage quality (or dare I say the one on the distributor with several nicely and not so nicely filtered SMPSs plugged into it?) provided to the powersupplies of hifi components affects SQ. If it does only in mine, than this is good for anybody else out there, i suppose; here i hear the difference when i swap a high quality SMPS (such as the 100€ ifi) for a linear psu - not because they would power a DAC, no, they are not driving anything in the hifi system, they power a tv setbox and are supplied by the same mains loop, but they affect voltage quality for the hifi components in different ways, meaning with different results on - yes - SQ.
The test everyone needs to show this wonderful openness & amazing sound you're so proud of is a 'with & without double blind' using a range of people including you, a bunch of audiophiles and random folk dragged off the street.
If I'd built something like this that's the first thing I'd do and I'd stick it on my website's home page. Front & centre.
Random people off the streets often don't have great ears, but 'random music students from CU' would work well
@@noahhorton8901 agree and disagree! Music students and musicians don’t know what to listen for they don’t care! all they do is their ability to produce their music and that’s all they care about hitting the right notes!
they don’t understand anything about dynamics, soundstage so you’re incorrect.
@@Nonsense62365 Wow. For someone who claims to be an audio solver, you sure hate musicians. Are you sure you're in the right line of work?
@@thisisnev please go away!
@@Nonsense62365 Soundstage is bogus.
We use a similar devise for our motorhome. It's the Hughes Autoformer. It maintains a constant voltage of 120v AC, even if the incoming voltage drops t0 100 volts. And it prevents voltage spikes. Not as precise as your power plant, but it protects all our electronic in our motorhome. We just went to a RV park were the voltage was 114 at the RV park plug, but right at 120 in our motorhome. We have the 220v version.
SNAKE OIL
There's a follow up video.. ua-cam.com/video/epIc-i390fg/v-deo.html
ASR posted a response.. it's goooood...
Dear Paul, obviously this is a response to ASR Audio Science Review Amir's tests and videos. Why don't you mention those tests and video and then give us some answers to what Amir pointed out? After all, you have a great product which makes the sound better so you should not be shy to comment about the tests and statements from Amir - or not?
exactly !
imo that’d just be fueling internet arguments. I prefer this plain explanation of what the unit is doing here, I’ll draw my own conclusions and choose to buy one or not, and wether to keep it or not.
@@ryN45678 Internet arguments? How about arguments and tests from engineers? Or would that be too scientific for you?
@@edgar9651 Let him take his own desicions, who you are nobody cares.
Indeed, it would be so helpful to address, in a very civilized manner, Amir's criticism on power regeneration point by point. I am left a bit confused as to where the truth is... Both Amir & Paul /PSAudio seem like decent, very above board persons. I don't know Amir's motivation for being critical other than he believes it to be the case. Regardless, it is very well done but seems incomplete to me.
I nearly bought a P15. Was pretty sceptical already, but now I will back down. I might borrow a unit from my dealer, but have no, or at best little, expectations. PSA should prove this Amir fellow wrong or admit he is right. Spec states 0.008 ohm.
and, howd your listening session go?
@@googoo-gjoob Hallo, I have not auditioned the P15 yet as I have more pressing issues to deal with in my audio system at this point.. but I also have very little expectations for any improvement. So of low priority.
Hi Paul, could you film some audioprecision tests?
Amir has already done that...
@@chefsteve8381 i know but I want to do if "Amir did wrong" or not
@@DougNoOnions Paul basically insulted amirm in ps audio forums as a response, those are the "measurements"
@@ezra8s I agree
Gotta justify selling snake oil somehow.
Products like this are just not feasible in a modern world. Power supply networks (in 1st world countries) these days are so well refined in their power output regulation that "conditioning" is not required. The voltage range is heavily monitored and controlled. Here in the UK, the declared voltage and tolerance for an electricity supply is 230 volts -6%, +10%. This gives an allowed voltage range of 216.2 volts to 253.0 volts.
All products that require a 230 volt power supply are designed to tolerate fluctuations in voltage and will operate perfectly well within the above tolerances. No "conditioning" is required at all.
This product is purely aimed at individuals who have too much money and nothing else to spend it on.
I will give Paul credit though, his marketing and friendly online appearance is charming and I can see how people can get sucked in.
It's a very good business strategy with a beautiful design to boot so what's not to like! Its just a shame that this product is just not needed at all in your audio chain.
Just my opinion........
Is this vlog due to the Critique that was given by an online technical review (asr) over two parts that was an in depth look at whether these pieces of equipment could be classed as partial snake oil.
interesting presentation. I wonder if we can HEAR the music difference from all this? Can you please try to demonstrate this somehow? Thanks.
Sorry but paul doesn’t like to engage in a point to point argument with ASR findings.
Paul only presents measurement methods which are favorable to his product.
Cant blame the guy. He has a lot at stake.
@@berlyfredy7153 well, unfortunately for Paul the genie is out of the bottle. These products will not improve sound, just drain the wallet. Too bad
@@CyberBeep_kenshi Have you done a listening test with any of the power plants?
@@PanAmStyle yes, several, and no difference whatsoever. Including expensive power cabling. All on loan, so in my own room etc. Including a niagra1200 (if i spell it correctly).
It's in the listeners mind, wanting to hear something, or paying more attention than usual etc.
And for the record i DO hear loads of differences in analogue interlinks, speaker cables. So much that i completely fixed bass issues and other stuff (measuredas well).
@@CyberBeep_kenshi for the record, the spelling is niagAra :)
I have heard differences in power cables and changed from the stock courtesy cables of both my primary amplifiers. In both cases I wasn’t expecting to hear much if any difference, but I did. I guess it’s either the character and/or resolution of the amplifiers or it’s “in my head” :) To each their own, but I wouldn’t make absolutist statements about others experiences. The cheapest Power Plant is $2500 US - it’s not in my budget. My dealer carries the AQ products, and I will be trying out the PowerQuest 3 ($300) which *is* within my budget.
Really sad when you feel the need to highlight any comment that is remotely positive even if wrong.
Note that when comparing the voltage drop between directly from the mains and via the P12, the voltage/current test point is very close to the outlet of the P12, rather than via the P12's mains cable. This would probably not account for the difference, but it brings into question the accuracy and integrity of this test.
Handheld meter🤣
This has got to be right up there with gold plated speaker cables.
What is this for again? I don't get it. Are these for amplifiers that don't already have a regulated power supply? Seems pretty useless otherwise.
Paul, you guys did poorly on this. I've watched a TON of your videos and appreciate what you say but to attack Amir simply because he posted the test results that you and your engineer failed to test (because you tested it on the low side instead of the high side where the problem was found) is nonsense.
Not to mention that this thing is called a "regenerator" and clearly there's no AC being truly regenerated. If anything, it's being recombined AND YOU KNOW THAT.
What Amir does is great for the community. Companies such as yours should be tested, scrutinized, and see objective testing as a reason to keep doing well. Trying to use personal attacks against him because YOU are misrepresenting your product (not Amir) is terrible and as someone who's been following you and setting money aside for some FR30s I'm now left wondering what to do because I don't like supporting companies that push hogwash and then continue doing it when they've been caught.
More snake oil...
It took a 23 minute video for damage control puffery after Amir destroyed the uppityphile NONSENSE concerning these boxes of bells and whistles.
What goes in must come out. If you can afford these boxes you don't have power issues in your home. I love the word salad that gets tossed in these videos though. Always entertaining to watch just like a Ronco infomercial.
-✌🏼
'Dirty' mains Signal goes in and a 'perfect regenerated' power signal comes out that's...95% (whatever) the same as what went in. Yeah that's a lot of money to spend for that kind of cleaning performance. I'd stick to amps guys.
What about the high current outlet?
In the video at 20:55, your head engineer makes the claim that "your transformer is only getting half as hot." If this actually was tested, you would have something to stand on.
Of course it's been tested as well as a fairly simple matter of fact using little more than Ohm's Law. We can't say for certain the impedance of every transformer (obviously) but in general, what Bob is saying is absolutely true and a simple matter to verify.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio This is patently false. His 1/2 as hot is purely made up. The dynamic efficiency of the transformer, unless overloaded and in saturation, does not double by halving the current. The efficiency is what defines how hot it will get. 1/2 the current, you need to double the time. Same amount of heat if the efficiency is the same.
@@robertt7238 Sorry, Robert but you're incorrect. Yes, the transformer's efficiency is important but, at the end of the day, there is X amount of loss in any transformer. Whatever that loss may be if you change the amount of current or the time it is present you will change the amount of heat (which is the result of the loss). There's nothing tricky here at all. It's Ohm's Law.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Back it up with a video taking temperature measurements and a regulated load please, before someone else buys one of your units and makes that video.
Paul always says that he doesn't want to pitch his products during these videos, but it's always after he already has. 😋
ua-cam.com/video/12T7JFLGlf0/v-deo.html, here is a pitch for PAUL's SNAKE OIL
That Transformer heating comment is totally incorrect. There will be a small reduction in heat, but unless the transformer is saturating, it will be just that slight. 2 * 0.5 = 1 * 1 last time I checked. The total energy transmitted by the transformer is the same, all that changes is the transformer efficiency depending on loading. Dynamic efficiency will be better at lower currents, but not 2x lower as he implies. At typical loading, even load, the difference will be much less than 10%.
Amir is the most valuable reviewer on youtube. This overpriced snake oil products for audiostupids with too much money are insane.
I can see the future. I see a lot of returns!🤔🤪🤫😳
Another Power product and hifi product not working it appears.