Thanks for bringing this to the community! Do you think you'll ever offer your frames in BNF versions, perhaps partnering with well-known manufactures, like what Dave C did with Recon FPV?
Yes, the BT3 is awesome (until you beat them up a LOT - but that's like 50+ crashes). My favorite of Bob's superlight frames. I do wish he made a chonky TP3 setup with beefy arms.
Came here to say thank you for this frame, I built a 3 inch naked vista toothpick and it flew so bad and the only way I could get it to stop shaking was to lower the PIDS the point the quad felt sluggish and no fun. Than I moved ll the parts to your T3 which I got from CNCdrones and like a magic, I can now fly with default BF 4.3 PIDS and the quad is fun :) Saved my build, thanks!
I have always been a 5" guy but I've been really interested in 3"/toothpick style and your t3 looks awesome and very durable (probably more important than resonance for me cuz u rarely tune lol) keep up the great work, you are very well spoken and smart and explain things well, helping me understand all of the filtering we use on our drones and how to relate real world flying and bb data to tune the way you should. 🤯👍
A mechanical solution would be a tuned mass damper. This does not need to add weight. Typically, the weight of the tmd is 1/10th to 1/5th the apparent moving mass. This added mass can come from already existing material in the frame by creating strategically chosen compliance and stiff areas. FEM is of great help here.
@@ChrisRosser looking forward to it!! Would love a design on and prop guarded 2inch 2S ultralight. Safer at parks, relatively quiet. But as the beta85 and UZ85 kit showed us there alot of fun a performance to be had in a powerwhoop even in 75mm whoop 2S can be very capable. I love them as flying around urban areas just makes me worry less and send it more.
That little guy flies pretty dang good even if no one ever buys one the feeling of accomplishment should be enough to leave u feeling satisfied because u did that no body else just you
There have been a lot of different toothpick frames and some have tried to strengthen the arms a bit like this. It's definitely a lot of weight in the middle to carry. It's a tough task for sure. Looks like a good option and at least you provide the resonance range to help people during tuning.
Beautiful frame and really good points about resonance being the key issue in toothpick frames. I didn't understand this when I dremeled off the support struts off a Happymodel Sailfly-X frame to make my own lightweight 2S toothpick build. Had heaps of trouble tuning it and it wasn't until I hooked up an openlager and looked at the gyro scaled spectrum that I discovered the horrible resonance at around 70 Hz which like you said is almost impossible to filter out. Dropping the P-gain and D-gain (as you've pointed out) was the only way to reduce it. I also discovered my TPU canopy with 3 mount points was contributing to resonance: a trick I learned was placing it on my sub-woofer and doing slow 20 - 200 hz audio tone sweep while lightly touching the canopy to feel for when it hits its resonance frequency. A proper 4 point mount (at a tiny weight increase) fixed that problem.
I think resonance is one of the most important but least talked about perfromance parameters for a frame. It can really prevent you getting a great tune. Glad to hear you were able to address your issues. I like the subwoofer sweep!
My semantic argument about 'filters don't perform that well at lower frequencies' is that this isn't the case, so much as the effective spectral content present when these
You're absolutely correct of course. I wasn't being very precise with my language there. The quad is what doesn't perform well with a lot of filtering applied at low frequencies. The filters themselveswork fine.
I will also vote for an unmet need for AOS to meet. A 2S racing whoop with great crash resistance and excellent crash-flip turtle mode capability. In my personal experience the best solution would come in the format of a well thought out 2.5" whoop frame. It is tougher to make reliable than smaller whoops but it is doable. If interested in challenge I will give my input (from 3 years pursuing such) for you to consider without any obligation to yourself.
My frame has arrived yesterday. Very quick shipping from Canada to Sweden. Looks exciting, when seeing it in the flesh so to say. A TuneRC Poly board has just arrived. Will use T-Motor F1303 3S motors and probably a RunCam Racer Nano 2 or 3 camera, depending on what I can get hold of in these semiconductor crazy times... Have some GNB 550 mAh 3S 90C packs waiting for this, I think this will be an epic little laser pointer in the air :-)
This is interesting. So, the FPVCycle TP3 is about 3g lighter. However they make braces for the frame that add about 5g that, I assume, give it a somewhat comparable resonance profile to this frame. So, when flying VERY light, 100-105g AUWg 3s toothpick, you get away with quite low pids (d in the mid-liw 40s) and bring your dynamic notch below 125hz and it flies fantastic. Adding weight (like using the braces) even in the sake of resonance management, makes it fly worse overall because of the drivetrain and such, the lighter build with a less loaded prop is managed by the motor better. 100g with D's in the 40s flies better than 105g with D's in the 50's. However, once you clear the 105-110g mark, you need higher pids to compensate for the weight (at least on the digipick I built). A naked toothpick frame cannot handle this. You HAVE to have some sort of brace or trussed design, and at that point you already blew the weight threshold so what's 3-5g? I guess what I'm getting at is, if you are tying to be absolutely as light as possible, you get away with a noisey frame and it will fly fantastic. But if you want a digipick, or are carrying a heavy analog DVR, adding braces, or choosing a design such as this is pretty helpful in being able to push the pids up to get it to fly well. If I didn't have 40+ spare tp3 arms already, I'd pick one of these up for sure. I'll probably try one out this summer as info through arms pretty quickly.
I actually picked one up, will arrive in a month or two, probably just in time for decent weather where drive to fly will outweigh the lazyness. I still suspect 3.5'@3s might be the target for digipicks (not tested what so ever, still cant find where I put the frame lol), very interested in comparing. That said my main experience with toothpicks is a 50g AUW 1s pick (520mah, 1202 motors + HM 2g4 AIO 5a with ELRS and VTX built in, plastic and titanium hardware e.t.c.), that TBH flies surprisingly well, apart from me wanting a bit more powah and well.. not analog :)
@@ChrisRosser yeah it's like 10g with hardware. Not having flown your frame, but having flown a braced tp3 at 15g, I still feel like if you can hit the 100g mark (for 13mm 5000kv 3s 3"), that is worth staying on a lighter and perhaps louder frame. If flying 1s, going super light like a babytooth unibody is still worth it. But if you are clearing 105g on your build, something like your frame makes a lot of sense. Looks easier to maintain and less likely to be claimed by a tree (big triangles catch branches) than a tp3 with braces. I also really like how you did the 20mm mounting as well. Very nice work.
Chris I’d love to see what you could do creating lightweight versions of some of your frames, I’m sure they wouldn’t have quite the same resonance characteristics but weight is so important in the 3” or 3.5” it might fly even better!
I just lost my previous custom toothpick in a river. Perfect timing for a new one. I'm going full aluminum on the bolts and roku 1203 motors with 3018 props.
Hello Chris, i am building this frame but using the walk snail VTX, not the 1s VTX but the full V2, i do not plan to de-case it which means more weight, than your built. Should i go for different motors than the one you recommend or is it still ok if the weight with battery is about 140g?. What would you suggest i change to achieve a good flight performance
Hi chris, thanks for your great work. I hope you are also designing a cinewhoop which is one of the types of frame that most of all have a very bad flight... we have already prepared the money for that!
I just ordered this frame in blue carbon fiber. I can't wait! It's been 2 years since this video was uploaded - are there updated recommendations on set-up including motors and PID in BF 4.4+?
I Love the AOS T3!! It is currently my favorite quad to fly. The only complaint I have is that the arms are too thin. I love to fly my toothpicks fast, and I have broken about 4 arms already. Please for the next version see if you can increase the arm strength so they don't break so easily. Because I love to fly this quad so much I ordered 6 new arms. Thanks
Funny thing about toothpicks is that the front motors are in view and I've actually SEEN the arm-twisting bending mode in my DVR frame-by-frame review. My current 2.5" Pyro Apex frame has no resonance under 200hz but the arms are wide and afaik isn't produced anymore. This looks promising as a replacement; I'd put emax 3" biblades on the 1103.5 8000kv motors for 2s performance. Edit: this would be for an analog toothpick but now I think I'll move my retired analog tadpole build to this frame for a naked vista. It has 1204 5150kv motors for 3-4s on 3" and I'd probably run the same on the toothpick build
Sounds like a great plan you definitely have the motors and you should feel a postive difference with 3" biblades vs 2.5" triblades! I hope it flies great for you 😁
Is this frame open design? I have local cabron cnc, it would be awesome if I can but the scheme of this frame or smth. It too hard to buy from US to Russia.
Thanks for the interesting frame design! Can you share the PID-F settings for this build? I am flying a low-budget 2s Crux3 (analog) and just went through some PID tuning (also thanks to your tutorial ;-)
Hi Chris, I'm building a toothpick and using your recommended parts for HDZero. If I'm planning on using the 450 mAh 3S battery, do you need I still require a capacitor on the battery leads, or will I be OK without a capacitor? Thanks
@@ChrisRosser Hi Chris, I just saw your video on Gyros "Gyro shootout" and you had some recommendation for the BMI Gyro. Because my toothpick build uses the iFlight Beast F7 V2 which contains a BMI270 i wanted to implement your recommendations like using 3.2K mode and the low pass filter settings. For some reason BF 4.3 won't allow me to change the default frequency from 500 to 250. also i don't know how to change to 3.2 k mode or where that is configured. Thanks again for all the great knowledge your passing on to everyone.
Dear Chris, I have bought 4 of the toothpick frame and they are under shipping:) 2 questions: 1) can your setup carry a 650mah 3s battery aswell? 2) what are your settings in BF? Share? Thanks /Martin
@@ChrisRosser , definitely! On mobile I couldn't really tell hence me asking. Also the fairly smooth flying added to the illusion of being filmed on an action camera.
That´s a very well thought out concept but for me there is missing the comparison to other frames. Maybe you can compare the resonance performance to some other frames of that size to make clear that your concept is really the better one.
Hi Chris, Great video and definitely interested in this tiny frame. What are your thoughts on a build using the HGLRC Zeus35 Pro AIO FC, RunCam Link Caddx Vista MPI System, Newbeedrone 1404 3000KV motors and crossfire Nano RX Receiver? Also if I purchased the frame, would it be possible to purchase a canopy that would support the HGLRC Zeus35 Pro 20x20 mounting pattern? Thanks.
I would say that's a good build but I would choose 5000KV motors and maybe 1204 or 1303 (1404 is too big for 3" biblade in my opinion and will add too much weight). Canopies are available from Brain3D.
@@ChrisRosser Hi Chris, Sorry to bother you again. A couple of quick questions: (1) Will 1105 5000KV be to small? (2) I contacted Brain 3D and they don’t have a 20mmx20mm size canopy that supports a 19mm camera. That size is only available for the 25mmx25mm canopy. Is there a reason for this? Thanks. Sam
@@ChrisRosser do you have a rough estimate when will it happen? shipping to germany its a little bit costly, if it would be available in a few weeks, I could wait for it
@@danka901 It will certainly be several weeks as chinese manufacturing is shut down for chinese new year. You can contact support@prime-cnc.co.uk to maybe order one from Sam in the UK as he's just started cutting parts for me.
Hi Chris.Have you done any testing on soft mounting of motors?It was all the rage a couple of years ago and worked but you don't hear anything about it now.Some people used electrical tape or tpu 3d print.
I've had good results with a smear of mechanical damping grease underneath the motors but the best thing for vibration is damping grease where the arms meet the frame.
Very nice Chris! If I had not just finished a toothpick build I would get this. Maybe I need another🤔. You said you were flying this on stock Betaflight 4.2 pids and filters. Can you recommend a starting point for pids and filters using 4.3? I have the same flight controller as you do on this build is why I ask. Thanks
The opposite in fact. Joints add damping which reduces vibrations. Solid frames like the marmotte or chameleon have bad resonance problems as a result.
@@MrOlisko1980 yes, I used everything except props, ofc lighter 3s battery might be better, but comparing to alpha, T3 flight much much better, it is fast and precise
@@szymonwesoowski4628 have you made caddx vista naked?:) Have you printed your own cannopy for camera? So you are using 4s 450mah? Just trying to find out what additional parts I need besides the frame:)
This looks great Chris! I have some Emax RS1106 4500kv motors from an old babyhawk that Id like to find a new frame for, and in my noobish mind, I think this would work well but would love your input to know if this is an ok fit?
Thank Chris, I think I am going to build one of these but I was wondering what you think about putting the fpvcycle 13mm motors on there. what about a 500mAh battery. thanks so much for what you do :)
My two cents on battery mounting.. I designed a frame with a similar slot for a piece of velcro. Instead of umagrip, I printed a piece of tpu as tall as the socket head m2 bolts and fit it over the bolts. Then I set the velcro strap tightness so that I can slide the lipos in and out but they are very snug. This isn't possible with sticky battery pad solution.
I flew loose battery for years. It is fine for level flight. However, performance is much better with the battery tied tightly to the frame for bando flying.
The frame geometry is rotationally symmetric so there are no issues on the yaw axis. The motors are exactly where you would expect them to be on a typical design so roll and pitch are unaffected. The only effect is a unique look to the drone.
@@ChrisRosser thought about it once more. The rotational symmetry does not imply yaw stability or balance. you could design a frame that is shaped such that the first mode would bend the arms with a non zero z axis torque. Of course this must be 99% neglectable in this frame design, just from a theory point of view I was suprised you went that route.
@@charlesmarseille123 Vibrational modes are a different topic than stability and balance in yaw moves and best approached with FEA and balckbox analysis. Stability and balance are more related to CoG, CoT and MoI.
Fun design! It's reminiscent of the Diatone with the funny arms. Would you not benefit from slightly longer arms? That would make the airflow further away from the branch. Also is there any difference between a y shaped arm and an arm like the ones you have (it's more like a runic letter than a y)?
Why not 1303 5000KV for 3S? My TP3 weighs 105g AUW with 3S 450mAh and 3016 tri-blades, on 5000KV it blasts through the air, loads of fun. Still getting 5 minutes of freestyle. Smooth tune too on BF4.3.
@@ChrisRosser Ah! Yes was surprised it flew that way in the footage.. thought 3000KV would be too low, now I understand :) Yeah around 110g AUW is sweet spot with 5000KV 3S, but 115-120g still flies great 👍🏾 especially if you have stiffer arms and can up the P/D like you said. Below 105g it gets really fun.
I flew toothpicks for the first 3 months of fpv. Don't you think the f7 Beast aio is a little overkill for such a build though? Surely you could get away with something cheaper. Though I guess you get blackbox and other benefits using the f7 Beast
@@ChrisRosser ah yea I forgot the plug it has for digital. Keeps it very simple. After looking at the weight of some other aios suppose the extra gram from the beast aio is worth it in the end for benefits. Especially if you are going to be running digital. Weight becomes less of a issue since you're already pretty heavy. Definitely will be grabbing one of these frames. How do you think it'll perform on 1s? My current 1s 3 inch is heavier than all hell (82g awu) but still flies quite amazing surprisingly enough.
TBH I really like JHEMCU GHF405AIO Pro, it's cheap enough, more amps that you'll ever need on a TP and has all the bells and whistles you might want. I have that on couple of my builds like Toothfairy 2 350g AUW build and some others. Been solid so far. There is an H7 variant, but TBH you dont really need that.
@@ChrisRosser that makes a lot more sense. However if you have a light 450mah 4S give it a go... In my experience it will work really well with a 3016 😁🚀
@@ChrisRosser also thanks for this video, it explains why my custom 3" frame flies so well. I don't seem to be able to post a link on here, but take a look at build 28832 on rotor builds. I'm most proud of the screwless hanging system for the FC.
I've had best results with 3" props using 1404 motors on 4S with KV's around 4,000. I’ve done about 10 of these now looking for what I consider the perfect combo.
I'm just a troll (who also happens to build and fly almost exclusively micros), but I would argue, that a 4mm single plate frame would have a similarly good resonance characteristics while still being lighter, far less complicated, cheaper, better looking and sooo much more durable (with this bulk, or anything above 70g all up weight, these 2.5 arms will be snapping in crashes like nobody's businesses!). It's a nice first attempt, but toothpick frames these days are really mature products - especiallly from designers, who focus exclusively on these kind of frames - just check out e.g. Quad 66 War Pig frame design (obsesively tested and perfected with BB analysis). ...And if you think your FC mounting system is clever - you are in for a surprise.....
@@nikotttin I am just about to do it for the first time (i.e. naked Vista on a 4mm WP 124), so I will see for myself... I thought if I use a typical 25.5 AIO - it should be no problem... Also - who says toothpicks must be with digital video?
@@onemanmob6756 not me :)) I have a heavy Toothpick (4s, 1205 5000kv on a Petrel120x frame) in the weight range shown above. It is not as snappy and happy in the air as the ultralight pig. I'm hoping 4.3 will change this...
In my experience unibody designs have poor resonance perfromance because there are no joints to create damping. The Armattan Chameleon and Marmotte are good examples of this issue. Perhaps a 4mm arm solves the problem?
@@ChrisRosser the two Armattan frames are a bit... dated in their design, but nevertheless, a single-plate frame will probably never be as good at damping resonances as a multi-plate/bolted design, however a 4mm single-plate frame's resonant frequcies should be shifted to way higher frequcies and their amplitudes should also be reduced significantly.... Now, how about this: two identical, single-plate frames, with different thicknesses (say 2mm and 1.5mm) 'sandwiched' together with (and/or without) dampening grease in between them, no additional bolts to fix the frames together, just the motor-mounting bolts and stack bolts? Could it be as good (better?) at dampening resonances than a multi-plate/bolted frame? Its weight should be comparable to a single-plate frame of the combined thickness of the two frames (in this example: a 3.5mm)
@@ChrisRosser was about to order a couple from CNC madness, but the shipping came to USD17 for 2 frames to the UK :( Hope these become available in the UK one day
@@OliverDathe Glad to hear it. The great thing about cut to order is stuff rarely goes out of stock but the tradeoff is dispatch times are a little slower :D
Because there are more paths to vibration management than just FEA. The TP3 formula is about balance of the entire drivetrain and specifically not adding so much power they you now need to worry about resonance issues or further hassle. 1303 5000kv 3s 3018 or 3016 props on something that's ~110g auw with a 3S 450-550mah battery is going to fly well regardless of the frame it's on. It's boarderline power where you start having issues where you need further frame management and a significant capacitor for electronic noise too.
I think when considering a design that is an evolution of a concept it always makes sense to ask if this is going to be a meaningful upgrade for you. If you feel your current setup flies amazing then no need to upgrade. The reason I embarked on this project was because a couple of my Patrons felt that their toothpick builds needed better vibration performance to get the quad where they wanted it to be. Those guys already have their TP3s and I hope that they think I did them justice! As Bob rightly says the benefits of FEA and simulation really come into their own as you push power/weight/tuning and start to find the limits of a build.
Ultralight frames are surprisingly durable because they don't carry that much energy into a crash. If the motor mount proves to be a weak spot I'll beef up that area a little (as I've done with the AOS 3.5 recently).
@@ChrisRosser yeah, that's true of course if the auw was below 85g it might not be an issue but at 120g? we'll see :) the arms ending right at the attachment holes was a bit weird to me, too but it obviously works and flies quite well ...
The motors I used on this build are 5000KV not 3000KV. I misread the bell on the motor and didn't catch the mistake. Sorry about that!
Is there any way to get these arms made for 3.5" props?
@@noahreinhart3555 It's like you're seeing the future...
Lol I was just watching this video and was like wait a minute 3000kv? I jumped to the comments to see what others said
This video made me buy 3 of them. Two is flying and the third will be built soon. Very nice frame. They are now my favorite quads. Thank you.
Thanks for bringing this to the community! Do you think you'll ever offer your frames in BNF versions, perhaps partnering with well-known manufactures, like what Dave C did with Recon FPV?
The 3mm FPVcycle Baby Tooth frame has an excellent resonance profile. I'm able to turn off low pass filtering, and use minimal Dterm filtering.
Yes, the BT3 is awesome (until you beat them up a LOT - but that's like 50+ crashes). My favorite of Bob's superlight frames.
I do wish he made a chonky TP3 setup with beefy arms.
Thanks for all you do for the hobby Chris. Just ordered two T3's along with your AOS 4 & 7" from Cncmadness, can't wait!!!
Awesome! Thank you!
Just got my frame in the mail 5 min ago. Very excited for my first DJI micro build. Thanks Chris! 🙏
Great stuff Chris! Can't wait to see the 3.5" version that will party on 1404 motors!
Well done, Chris! That’s a very interesting little frame.
Came here to say thank you for this frame, I built a 3 inch naked vista toothpick and it flew so bad and the only way I could get it to stop shaking was to lower the PIDS the point the quad felt sluggish and no fun. Than I moved ll the parts to your T3 which I got from CNCdrones and like a magic, I can now fly with default BF 4.3 PIDS and the quad is fun :) Saved my build, thanks!
A good frame Chris, it’s great to see all the analytics that go into making a frame.
Thanks, I don't know whether other designers do the same analyses but I think I'm the only person who shares them.
Fully agree with your love for 3" quadcopters. From all my quadcopters, different in size ranging from 2"- 5" the 3" is my favourite pick!
Very nice looking frame, and a great video as always. May be something in my very neat future, I like the way that flies.
For vista antenna you can use simple whoop style dipole, it works just fine for the typical range of toothpick, it is lighter and smaller
Thanks for the tip, every gram helps!
@@ChrisRosser The VSWR matching tends to be better too, ironically enough
I have always been a 5" guy but I've been really interested in 3"/toothpick style and your t3 looks awesome and very durable (probably more important than resonance for me cuz u rarely tune lol) keep up the great work, you are very well spoken and smart and explain things well, helping me understand all of the filtering we use on our drones and how to relate real world flying and bb data to tune the way you should. 🤯👍
A mechanical solution would be a tuned mass damper. This does not need to add weight. Typically, the weight of the tmd is 1/10th to 1/5th the apparent moving mass. This added mass can come from already existing material in the frame by creating strategically chosen compliance and stiff areas. FEM is of great help here.
This is remarkable! Thank you Chris. I love how you drilled out the corners of the Air Unit for 20x20.
So scary!!!
Yeah, you can do it if you go carefully and it'll fit 25.5x25.5mm perfectly.
Yeah that's what I meant to type was 25x25!
Thanks for giving the micro some attention mate! Loving the content, hope you stick around in the hobbie and keep enjoying FPv flight.
Thanks, will do! I'm hoping to launch a few more ultralights in the next few months so stay tuned 😁
@@ChrisRosser looking forward to it!! Would love a design on and prop guarded 2inch 2S ultralight. Safer at parks, relatively quiet. But as the beta85 and UZ85 kit showed us there alot of fun a performance to be had in a powerwhoop even in 75mm whoop 2S can be very capable. I love them as flying around urban areas just makes me worry less and send it more.
That little guy flies pretty dang good even if no one ever buys one the feeling of accomplishment should be enough to leave u feeling satisfied because u did that no body else just you
There have been a lot of different toothpick frames and some have tried to strengthen the arms a bit like this. It's definitely a lot of weight in the middle to carry. It's a tough task for sure. Looks like a good option and at least you provide the resonance range to help people during tuning.
Any option for doing 3 or 3.5 mm arms? (For running slightly larger motors for a little heavier build)
I'm sure you can. Just ask Nick at cnc drones to do you a special version.
Beautiful frame and really good points about resonance being the key issue in toothpick frames. I didn't understand this when I dremeled off the support struts off a Happymodel Sailfly-X frame to make my own lightweight 2S toothpick build. Had heaps of trouble tuning it and it wasn't until I hooked up an openlager and looked at the gyro scaled spectrum that I discovered the horrible resonance at around 70 Hz which like you said is almost impossible to filter out. Dropping the P-gain and D-gain (as you've pointed out) was the only way to reduce it. I also discovered my TPU canopy with 3 mount points was contributing to resonance: a trick I learned was placing it on my sub-woofer and doing slow 20 - 200 hz audio tone sweep while lightly touching the canopy to feel for when it hits its resonance frequency. A proper 4 point mount (at a tiny weight increase) fixed that problem.
I think resonance is one of the most important but least talked about perfromance parameters for a frame. It can really prevent you getting a great tune. Glad to hear you were able to address your issues. I like the subwoofer sweep!
You finally did it and flew under that bench XD
Next step: Powerlooping through that seating group ;D
You had me at "it fits a battery strap easily" 😆
I know. It's suprising how many toothpicks don't have battery strap slots.
My semantic argument about 'filters don't perform that well at lower frequencies' is that this isn't the case, so much as the effective spectral content present when these
You're absolutely correct of course. I wasn't being very precise with my language there. The quad is what doesn't perform well with a lot of filtering applied at low frequencies. The filters themselveswork fine.
I will also vote for an unmet need for AOS to meet. A 2S racing whoop with great crash resistance and excellent crash-flip turtle mode capability. In my personal experience the best solution would come in the format of a well thought out 2.5" whoop frame. It is tougher to make reliable than smaller whoops but it is doable. If interested in challenge I will give my input (from 3 years pursuing such) for you to consider without any obligation to yourself.
Okay, that was impressive!
Thanks!
@@ChrisRosser You're welcome!!
My frame has arrived yesterday. Very quick shipping from Canada to Sweden. Looks exciting, when seeing it in the flesh so to say. A TuneRC Poly board has just arrived. Will use T-Motor F1303 3S motors and probably a RunCam Racer Nano 2 or 3 camera, depending on what I can get hold of in these semiconductor crazy times...
Have some GNB 550 mAh 3S 90C packs waiting for this, I think this will be an epic little laser pointer in the air :-)
Hi Sir, can i use this frame for digital???
dude, GGood morning! omg, best sharing!😲
This is interesting. So, the FPVCycle TP3 is about 3g lighter. However they make braces for the frame that add about 5g that, I assume, give it a somewhat comparable resonance profile to this frame.
So, when flying VERY light, 100-105g AUWg 3s toothpick, you get away with quite low pids (d in the mid-liw 40s) and bring your dynamic notch below 125hz and it flies fantastic. Adding weight (like using the braces) even in the sake of resonance management, makes it fly worse overall because of the drivetrain and such, the lighter build with a less loaded prop is managed by the motor better. 100g with D's in the 40s flies better than 105g with D's in the 50's.
However, once you clear the 105-110g mark, you need higher pids to compensate for the weight (at least on the digipick I built). A naked toothpick frame cannot handle this. You HAVE to have some sort of brace or trussed design, and at that point you already blew the weight threshold so what's 3-5g?
I guess what I'm getting at is, if you are tying to be absolutely as light as possible, you get away with a noisey frame and it will fly fantastic. But if you want a digipick, or are carrying a heavy analog DVR, adding braces, or choosing a design such as this is pretty helpful in being able to push the pids up to get it to fly well.
If I didn't have 40+ spare tp3 arms already, I'd pick one of these up for sure. I'll probably try one out this summer as info through arms pretty quickly.
I actually picked one up, will arrive in a month or two, probably just in time for decent weather where drive to fly will outweigh the lazyness. I still suspect 3.5'@3s might be the target for digipicks (not tested what so ever, still cant find where I put the frame lol), very interested in comparing. That said my main experience with toothpicks is a 50g AUW 1s pick (520mah, 1202 motors + HM 2g4 AIO 5a with ELRS and VTX built in, plastic and titanium hardware e.t.c.), that TBH flies surprisingly well, apart from me wanting a bit more powah and well.. not analog :)
I think the TP3 is around 9-10g. Does that include the stack screws?
@@ChrisRosser yeah it's like 10g with hardware. Not having flown your frame, but having flown a braced tp3 at 15g, I still feel like if you can hit the 100g mark (for 13mm 5000kv 3s 3"), that is worth staying on a lighter and perhaps louder frame. If flying 1s, going super light like a babytooth unibody is still worth it. But if you are clearing 105g on your build, something like your frame makes a lot of sense. Looks easier to maintain and less likely to be claimed by a tree (big triangles catch branches) than a tp3 with braces.
I also really like how you did the 20mm mounting as well. Very nice work.
Chris I’d love to see what you could do creating lightweight versions of some of your frames, I’m sure they wouldn’t have quite the same resonance characteristics but weight is so important in the 3” or 3.5” it might fly even better!
I'm working on an light 5" frame. Hopefully that will be of interest.
I just lost my previous custom toothpick in a river. Perfect timing for a new one. I'm going full aluminum on the bolts and roku 1203 motors with 3018 props.
Right on! Super light weight build with aluminium hardware.
Hello Chris, i am building this frame but using the walk snail VTX, not the 1s VTX but the full V2, i do not plan to de-case it which means more weight, than your built. Should i go for different motors than the one you recommend or is it still ok if the weight with battery is about 140g?. What would you suggest i change to achieve a good flight performance
Looks like she Flys very well!!!
I think so. Can't wait to get out and do the tune and freestyle!
that is sick. I think one of those with the metioned FC and a TBS 69 would be epic.
Hi chris, thanks for your great work. I hope you are also designing a cinewhoop which is one of the types of frame that most of all have a very bad flight... we have already prepared the money for that!
I am!
Why not using 1404 motors with ~4500 KV? Have these laying around here and asking myself if i can use these for the T3.
I just ordered this frame in blue carbon fiber. I can't wait! It's been 2 years since this video was uploaded - are there updated recommendations on set-up including motors and PID in BF 4.4+?
The NewBeeDrone Savage Bee frame is a fantastic frame as well. It’s really heavy as well though at ~8g.
Hello! I'm doing your same build, is it possible to get your betaflight diff? Thank you so much!
metallica fans will apreciate the frame xD
I Love the AOS T3!! It is currently my favorite quad to fly. The only complaint I have is that the arms are too thin. I love to fly my toothpicks fast, and I have broken about 4 arms already. Please for the next version see if you can increase the arm strength so they don't break so easily. Because I love to fly this quad so much I ordered 6 new arms. Thanks
What du you think of designs like the Diatone gtb 339? Do these have any advantages over traditionall X Designs?
I have some 1105 5000kv motors with nothing to do. Do you all think that would work on this frame?
Won't mounting the antenna so close to the frame cause range issues when the quad is positioned in some orientations?
Funny thing about toothpicks is that the front motors are in view and I've actually SEEN the arm-twisting bending mode in my DVR frame-by-frame review. My current 2.5" Pyro Apex frame has no resonance under 200hz but the arms are wide and afaik isn't produced anymore. This looks promising as a replacement; I'd put emax 3" biblades on the 1103.5 8000kv motors for 2s performance.
Edit: this would be for an analog toothpick but now I think I'll move my retired analog tadpole build to this frame for a naked vista. It has 1204 5150kv motors for 3-4s on 3" and I'd probably run the same on the toothpick build
Sounds like a great plan you definitely have the motors and you should feel a postive difference with 3" biblades vs 2.5" triblades! I hope it flies great for you 😁
Beautiful KISS design !! I do not see wheelbase spec anywhere ?? What is the wheelbase ??
how loud is that drone and what max flight time can I get?
Any chance you have links to the hardware for those press nuts and screws?
I'm afraid my manufacturing partner sources those bits!
Already ordered.. can't wait to give it a whirl.
think I'm going to have to try the naked vista
Yeah, it's kind of awesome to have DJI HD on such a tiny and agile quad!
Just lost a 3 inch toothpick, looking forward another build with this frame.
I hope it flies great for you!
Is this frame open design? I have local cabron cnc, it would be awesome if I can but the scheme of this frame or smth.
It too hard to buy from US to Russia.
Is it compatible with caddx nebula pro complete and not naked? greetings from Chile.
Yes if you use the 20x20 stack.
Thanks for the interesting frame design! Can you share the PID-F settings for this build? I am flying a low-budget 2s Crux3 (analog) and just went through some PID tuning (also thanks to your tutorial ;-)
I will do when I finish the tune 👍
The Llama GTB 339 tune will work well on that - you can probably run much more aggressive filtering than that applies, but it will work.
Hi Chris, I got the exact same setup motors/frame. Do tou mind sharing your filter and pid setup for tjis frame?
can u consider making an even lower weight version for 1s builds? that would be heavenly Chris, heavenly; a ~5-6g frame = heaven on 1s! please?
I would like this as well.
Hi Chris,
I'm building a toothpick and using your recommended parts for HDZero. If I'm planning on using the 450 mAh 3S battery, do you need I still require a capacitor on the battery leads, or will I be OK without a capacitor? Thanks
If your AIO is 6S capable you won't need a capacitor on 3S.
@@ChrisRosser Hi Chris, I just saw your video on Gyros "Gyro shootout" and you had some recommendation for the BMI Gyro. Because my toothpick build uses the iFlight Beast F7 V2 which contains a BMI270 i wanted to implement your recommendations like using 3.2K mode and the low pass filter settings. For some reason BF 4.3 won't allow me to change the default frequency from 500 to 250. also i don't know how to change to 3.2 k mode or where that is configured. Thanks again for all the great knowledge your passing on to everyone.
Do we really need a 55A ESC for this build? I reckon 20 would be enough at this weight and motor size.
Dear Chris, I have bought 4 of the toothpick frame and they are under shipping:) 2 questions: 1) can your setup carry a 650mah 3s battery aswell? 2) what are your settings in BF? Share?
Thanks /Martin
For the freestyle footage is that the DJI DVR footage or did you stick an Insta 360 go or something similar onto it?
DJI DVR. Looks Ok I think!
@@ChrisRosser , definitely! On mobile I couldn't really tell hence me asking. Also the fairly smooth flying added to the illusion of being filmed on an action camera.
How do you secure the battery lead to the frame?
What do you think of the diatone 339 cube frame? (Resonance performance)
That´s a very well thought out concept but for me there is missing the comparison to other frames. Maybe you can compare the resonance performance to some other frames of that size to make clear that your concept is really the better one.
I wonder if we'll ever get an AOS whoop frame :P Maybe 85mm
Damn it Chris, just when I had convinced myself that I don't need a 3"...
If you're going to build one it might as well be the best flying one (in my opinion at least!) 👍
Flies great. Good work. If you get time on your lunch break how about a 3 inch rocket for 1408/1506? Just a thought.
Tiny Alta-X!
I'm surprised you went with such low KV motors compared to Bob's motors!
I misread the bell and didn't spot my mistake. They are 5000KV, I'll pin a comment!
Hi Chris,
Great video and definitely interested in this tiny frame.
What are your thoughts on a build using the HGLRC Zeus35 Pro AIO FC, RunCam Link Caddx Vista MPI System, Newbeedrone 1404 3000KV motors and crossfire Nano RX Receiver?
Also if I purchased the frame, would it be possible to purchase a canopy that would support the HGLRC Zeus35 Pro 20x20 mounting pattern?
Thanks.
I would say that's a good build but I would choose 5000KV motors and maybe 1204 or 1303 (1404 is too big for 3" biblade in my opinion and will add too much weight). Canopies are available from Brain3D.
@@ChrisRosser Thanks for the advice.
@@ChrisRosser Hi Chris,
Sorry to bother you again. A couple of quick questions:
(1) Will 1105 5000KV be to small?
(2) I contacted Brain 3D and they don’t have a 20mmx20mm size canopy that supports a 19mm camera. That size is only available for the 25mmx25mm canopy. Is there a reason for this?
Thanks.
Sam
Will it be available from banggood?
That's the plan 😁
@@ChrisRosser do you have a rough estimate when will it happen? shipping to germany its a little bit costly, if it would be available in a few weeks, I could wait for it
@@danka901 It will certainly be several weeks as chinese manufacturing is shut down for chinese new year. You can contact support@prime-cnc.co.uk to maybe order one from Sam in the UK as he's just started cutting parts for me.
Hi Chris.Have you done any testing on soft mounting of motors?It was all the rage a couple of years ago and worked but you don't hear anything about it now.Some people used electrical tape or tpu 3d print.
I've had good results with a smear of mechanical damping grease underneath the motors but the best thing for vibration is damping grease where the arms meet the frame.
Perhaps you could share your pids and filtering on this frame? I find it very hard to tune this without blackbox
Tuning without blackbox is not easy. Without blackbox all I would do is gradually increase the master slider.
@@ChrisRosser I got the same motors as you and an clean build mind sharing your progress on filtering and pid?
Very nice Chris! If I had not just finished a toothpick build I would get this. Maybe I need another🤔. You said you were flying this on stock Betaflight 4.2 pids and filters. Can you recommend a starting point for pids and filters using 4.3? I have the same flight controller as you do on this build is why I ask. Thanks
I bought the frame. I have a question though - Aren't a lot of screws increase vibrations and resonance?
The opposite in fact. Joints add damping which reduces vibrations. Solid frames like the marmotte or chameleon have bad resonance problems as a result.
Will the 4s 450mah be also good for this build? I have those batteries from Alpha A85, I would like to move all components from it to this frame.
Im thinking to do the same.. Have you done that already? I would love to switch from Alpha A85 HD to toothpick! :)
@@MrOlisko1980 yes, I used everything except props, ofc lighter 3s battery might be better, but comparing to alpha, T3 flight much much better, it is fast and precise
@@szymonwesoowski4628 have you made caddx vista naked?:) Have you printed your own cannopy for camera? So you are using 4s 450mah? Just trying to find out what additional parts I need besides the frame:)
@@MrOlisko1980 yes, naked vista, printed canopy, 4s 450mah battery
@@szymonwesoowski4628 and last question: which props are you using?
This looks great Chris! I have some Emax RS1106 4500kv motors from an old babyhawk that Id like to find a new frame for, and in my noobish mind, I think this would work well but would love your input to know if this is an ok fit?
+1👍 💪 i like it ....
but the slogan could be _"Drives OCD symmetry people nuts"_ 🤣
It is rotationally symmetric! That must count for something, right? 🤣
Thank Chris, I think I am going to build one of these but I was wondering what you think about putting the fpvcycle 13mm motors on there. what about a 500mAh battery. thanks so much for what you do :)
Those motors should do great as they are designed for 3" biblade props. 500mAh 3S would be OK I think. 500mAh 2S would be fine also.
@@ChrisRosser thanks
My two cents on battery mounting.. I designed a frame with a similar slot for a piece of velcro. Instead of umagrip, I printed a piece of tpu as tall as the socket head m2 bolts and fit it over the bolts. Then I set the velcro strap tightness so that I can slide the lipos in and out but they are very snug. This isn't possible with sticky battery pad solution.
Cool idea thanks for sharing!
I flew loose battery for years. It is fine for level flight. However, performance is much better with the battery tied tightly to the frame for bando flying.
Asymmetric? won't this induce different characteristic modes for clockwise/anti-clockwise yaw moves in particular?
The frame geometry is rotationally symmetric so there are no issues on the yaw axis. The motors are exactly where you would expect them to be on a typical design so roll and pitch are unaffected. The only effect is a unique look to the drone.
@@ChrisRosser thought about it once more. The rotational symmetry does not imply yaw stability or balance. you could design a frame that is shaped such that the first mode would bend the arms with a non zero z axis torque. Of course this must be 99% neglectable in this frame design, just from a theory point of view I was suprised you went that route.
@@charlesmarseille123 Vibrational modes are a different topic than stability and balance in yaw moves and best approached with FEA and balckbox analysis. Stability and balance are more related to CoG, CoT and MoI.
Fun design! It's reminiscent of the Diatone with the funny arms.
Would you not benefit from slightly longer arms? That would make the airflow further away from the branch.
Also is there any difference between a y shaped arm and an arm like the ones you have (it's more like a runic letter than a y)?
A runic shape keeps continuous carbon fibre filament running along the length of the arm.
@@ChrisRosser Duh, I'm stupid.
That said arms a wee bit longer may still I think be beneficial.
Just ordered your t3 frame
Looks like a ninja 🥷 star
Should have called it the AOS Shuriken!
Why not 1303 5000KV for 3S? My TP3 weighs 105g AUW with 3S 450mAh and 3016 tri-blades, on 5000KV it blasts through the air, loads of fun. Still getting 5 minutes of freestyle. Smooth tune too on BF4.3.
Damn! you made me check and I misread the bell. They are 5000KV, I'll pin a comment!
@@ChrisRosser Ah! Yes was surprised it flew that way in the footage.. thought 3000KV would be too low, now I understand :) Yeah around 110g AUW is sweet spot with 5000KV 3S, but 115-120g still flies great 👍🏾 especially if you have stiffer arms and can up the P/D like you said. Below 105g it gets really fun.
Could you do a video about Component selection for maximum flight time?
I would like to see that too, but if its too much work, could you just share some toughts here in the comment section? :)
Use big bi-blade props and minimise weight wherever possible.
is this going to be available in the UK at some point?
I flew toothpicks for the first 3 months of fpv. Don't you think the f7 Beast aio is a little overkill for such a build though? Surely you could get away with something cheaper. Though I guess you get blackbox and other benefits using the f7 Beast
I'm sure you could use something cheaper. The F7 and blackbox are nice features though to be sure as well as the plug for DJI.
@@ChrisRosser ah yea I forgot the plug it has for digital. Keeps it very simple. After looking at the weight of some other aios suppose the extra gram from the beast aio is worth it in the end for benefits. Especially if you are going to be running digital. Weight becomes less of a issue since you're already pretty heavy. Definitely will be grabbing one of these frames. How do you think it'll perform on 1s? My current 1s 3 inch is heavier than all hell (82g awu) but still flies quite amazing surprisingly enough.
@@Brian-S Diatone has MAMBA AIO F722 MK1 35A and it comes with DJI plug. it's a lot cheaper than iflight F7 beast. It doesn't has blackbox though..
Personally I fly the Flywoo gnf745 with 40a 32 bit ESCs and black box.
I feel like if you have the money, bl32 and bbl are worth it for sure.
TBH I really like JHEMCU GHF405AIO Pro, it's cheap enough, more amps that you'll ever need on a TP and has all the bells and whistles you might want. I have that on couple of my builds like Toothfairy 2 350g AUW build and some others. Been solid so far. There is an H7 variant, but TBH you dont really need that.
Have you tried this on 4S? 3000kv 3" props should sing on 4S, though you may want to go for 3018 biblades.
I misread the bell. They are 5000KV not 3000KV, I'll pin a comment!
@@ChrisRosser that makes a lot more sense. However if you have a light 450mah 4S give it a go... In my experience it will work really well with a 3016 😁🚀
@@ChrisRosser also thanks for this video, it explains why my custom 3" frame flies so well. I don't seem to be able to post a link on here, but take a look at build 28832 on rotor builds. I'm most proud of the screwless hanging system for the FC.
How long until their in stock at Unmanned tech?
It will probably take several weeks. I'm working with prime-cnc (on facebook) so speak to Sam and he may be able to get you one faster.
@@ChrisRosser Thanks I've sent him a message.
nice .. it looks like a tibetan cross!
It does! Also looks a bit like a ninja star too.
I've had best results with 3" props using 1404 motors on 4S with KV's around 4,000. I’ve done about 10 of these now looking for what I consider the perfect combo.
I guess that's with triblade props though? 1404 is massive overkill for a biblade 3" prop in my experience.
@@ChrisRosser I pretty much only run biblade T3x3 with 1404’s. I like the way they respond and corner.
I see issue with most 25 by 25 FC that have USB pointing downwards!
Those are tiny whoop FC. The toothpick FC have the USB on the side.
@@NathansHVAC Not true, I have a 12A FC which can do 2S-4S paired with 1204 motors. So that being said, why limit the frame design.
I'm just a troll (who also happens to build and fly almost exclusively micros), but I would argue, that a 4mm single plate frame would have a similarly good resonance characteristics while still being lighter, far less complicated, cheaper, better looking and sooo much more durable (with this bulk, or anything above 70g all up weight, these 2.5 arms will be snapping in crashes like nobody's businesses!).
It's a nice first attempt, but toothpick frames these days are really mature products - especiallly from designers, who focus exclusively on these kind of frames - just check out e.g. Quad 66 War Pig frame design (obsesively tested and perfected with BB analysis). ...And if you think your FC mounting system is clever - you are in for a surprise.....
But mounting a vista on a warpig is hard :)
Quad66's design is excellent for
ultralight toothpicks. Mine is about 35g
@@nikotttin I am just about to do it for the first time (i.e. naked Vista on a 4mm WP 124), so I will see for myself...
I thought if I use a typical 25.5 AIO - it should be no problem...
Also - who says toothpicks must be with digital video?
@@onemanmob6756 not me :))
I have a heavy Toothpick (4s, 1205 5000kv on a Petrel120x frame) in the weight range shown above. It is not as snappy and happy in the air as the ultralight pig. I'm hoping 4.3 will change this...
In my experience unibody designs have poor resonance perfromance because there are no joints to create damping. The Armattan Chameleon and Marmotte are good examples of this issue. Perhaps a 4mm arm solves the problem?
@@ChrisRosser the two Armattan frames are a bit... dated in their design, but nevertheless, a single-plate frame will probably never be as good at damping resonances as a multi-plate/bolted design, however a 4mm single-plate frame's resonant frequcies should be shifted to way higher frequcies and their amplitudes should also be reduced significantly....
Now, how about this: two identical, single-plate frames, with different thicknesses (say 2mm and 1.5mm) 'sandwiched' together with (and/or without) dampening grease in between them, no additional bolts to fix the frames together, just the motor-mounting bolts and stack bolts? Could it be as good (better?) at dampening resonances than a multi-plate/bolted frame? Its weight should be comparable to a single-plate frame of the combined thickness of the two frames (in this example: a 3.5mm)
Will these be available in the UK any time soon?
It depends on UK FPV shops. Send your favourite one an email asking and hopefully they can order some in for you. I'll sort them out 👍
@@ChrisRosser will do
@@ChrisRosser was about to order a couple from CNC madness, but the shipping came to USD17 for 2 frames to the UK :(
Hope these become available in the UK one day
So glad your stuff is now available on Banggood, at least now 3rd world socially awkward freaks like me can buy too.
PEVX kicking a$$ with a tuning fork frame. Not hating, just saying. :D
Absolutely they are! My hope is that people will be able to do even more amazing things with a frame with improved performance.
Nice Frame, but...
All components are already there, only the frame is not available.
Here you go: www.cncdrones.com/aos-t3.html
@@ChrisRosser i know, I ordered two pieces but Not deliverable
I take back everything and claim the opposite. After 5 days, the frame is now also on its way.
@@OliverDathe Glad to hear it. The great thing about cut to order is stuff rarely goes out of stock but the tradeoff is dispatch times are a little slower :D
If these quads have so much vibration then why do they fly amazing? This whole vibration thing is beginning to seem like a grift.
Because there are more paths to vibration management than just FEA. The TP3 formula is about balance of the entire drivetrain and specifically not adding so much power they you now need to worry about resonance issues or further hassle. 1303 5000kv 3s 3018 or 3016 props on something that's ~110g auw with a 3S 450-550mah battery is going to fly well regardless of the frame it's on. It's boarderline power where you start having issues where you need further frame management and a significant capacitor for electronic noise too.
I think when considering a design that is an evolution of a concept it always makes sense to ask if this is going to be a meaningful upgrade for you. If you feel your current setup flies amazing then no need to upgrade. The reason I embarked on this project was because a couple of my Patrons felt that their toothpick builds needed better vibration performance to get the quad where they wanted it to be. Those guys already have their TP3s and I hope that they think I did them justice!
As Bob rightly says the benefits of FEA and simulation really come into their own as you push power/weight/tuning and start to find the limits of a build.
I would love to know the flight time of that little guy
My similar build with roku 1202.5 and 3018 props can get 15 minutes in a hover with Auline 11.4V 3S 1000mah 60C XT30 Bando is 8 minutes.
@@NathansHVAC with... The vista????????
@@NathansHVAC i can't find those motors, can you specify the name and kw?
me too :)
When T3 EVO?
Next release cycle is the AOS T3 V5 with AOS X-Cell.
oh those motor mounts will snap off
Ultralight frames are surprisingly durable because they don't carry that much energy into a crash. If the motor mount proves to be a weak spot I'll beef up that area a little (as I've done with the AOS 3.5 recently).
@@ChrisRosser yeah, that's true of course
if the auw was below 85g it might not be an issue
but at 120g? we'll see :)
the arms ending right at the attachment holes was a bit weird to me, too
but it obviously works and flies quite well ...