Timeline Heresies: The Pact & the Hammer of the Waters
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2020
- This is my best overall reorganization of the pre-Andal Westerosi timeline: The Dawn Age & Age of Heroes, The Pact between First Men and children of the Forest, the Hammer of the Waters, the Long Night and the creation of the Night's Watch, the founding of the great houses, the building of Moat Cailin, Castle Pyke, and Storm's End, and more. This will be a scripted, extensively researched livestream, and I'll be taking questions in between sections and at the end so y'all can react to the many heresies that will be uttered.
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God's eye lake & Isle of faces likely to have been formed from a meteorite strike too. An island in middle of a lake is an IRL geographical feature of a meteor strike.
and a volcano
This makes a lot of sense!
I have seen a discussion with a theologist who pointed out a lot of quotes from the bible, where God told the humans that he did not want blood sacrifice, or at least no human sacrifice (sacrificed animals are bloody too). And the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa causing catastrophic events could be how whatever deiety there is in the World of Ice and Fire telling people that he/she does not approve of blood sacrifice.
Nearly all human cultures had blood sacrifices at some time - in Europe skelettons have been found that have clear signs that these people were sacrificed in some kind of ceremony. And the same is true for the Maya and Inca cultures. And the biblical stories of human sacrifices certainly have their roots in the real life history of the middle east. At some point in time mankind has abandoned this. And the same thing happened in Westeros - there were cultures that practiced blood sacrifice, and then something happened and they more or less stopped it.
What happened is...the Romans conquered them!
I think outright war erupted between the Children and the First Men with the power grab of Garth the Green. That is, his assult on the Children for magical power.
There is no God in asoiaf though. Only Gods created by men
I never expected to comment this on a place other than a Preston Jacob video, but... HISTORICAL MATERIALISM GANG!
I love that LML finally explains his timeline in detail, I've been waiting a while for this!
I had an interesting thought while you were talking about the Iron Islanders coming from west of Westeros. If Westeros is sort of like Europe, that would make any continent to its west analogous to the Americas. The Ironborn remind me of vikings cranked up to 11, and the vikings once tried to colonize North America long before the Europeans even knew it existed. It would be a cool inversion if instead the ASOIAF vikings came from the "new world" and they were just a colony of some other civilization that either still exists, if they arrived after the Long Night, or that was wiped out by the Long Night if they came before. Given the difficulty sailors have crossing the sunset sea that we saw in Fire and Blood, it would make sense that whatever nation the Ironborn originated from wouldn't have been able to contact them once they were in Westeros, and vice versa. How and why such a colony could have ended up in Westeros is utterly beyond me, but I still find it interesting to think about.
They could be from a forgotten island that was cut off during the hammer of the waters, have a rough ocean between them and westeros. They're technically west of westeros and yet from the old world, perhaps in a chain of Islands like Iceland.
I don't think so.
I think the Iron Islanders are First Men.
Though I do think the Long Night meteor drowned the Drowned God, but instead of *ever* woshiping the Old Gods like the mainlanders, the Ironmen kept worshipping their dead god.
I definitely laughed out loud (lovingly) when David says “time for the conclusion”, with ~35 minutes to go. 😂🎉
This early era of the ASOIAF is amazing. Would love to see more of this era. Makes so much more sense than what the Maesters would have us believe.
That Irish Elk. Damn.
Hi LML, not sure if you've mentioned this before (you have tons of content so its hard to remember), but the gaelic mythology behind the name "Cailin" is quite interesting. I googled "Cailin" and the first result is from wikipedia: the gaelic name "Cailleach" which is a "divine hag (witch, old ugly woman) and ancestor, associated with the creation of the landscape and with the weather, especially storms and winter. In modern Scottish folklore studies, she is also known as Beira, Queen of Winter." Also from a different source: "The Cailleach appears primarily as a veiled old woman, sometimes with only one eye. Her skin was deathly pale or blue, while her teeth were red (drinking weirwood paste?) and her clothes adourned with skulls. She could leap across mountains snd ride through storms. (Sounds like a greenseer to me) In the Manx tradition, the Cailleach was a shapeshifter capable of transforming into a giant bird." "The Cailleach was also remarkably similar to the Norse deity Skady, the goddess of winter and darkness, as well as the Germanic Holle, wife of Wotan (Odin) and master of winter's cold. Though her stormy hammer closely resembled Thor's hammer, Mjolnir, the Cailleach's bevavior and appearance were closer to that of Thor's foes, the frost giants." Mind=blown. Sounds like a Nissa-Nissa-turned-vengeful to me.
Yeah that’s exactly what I was thinking as I read this, and I think I’ve come across her before. Moat Night Queen, hahaha. But yeah one day I should collect all the winter goddess together and see what we have, think about NQ and all that
@@DavidLightbringer My thoughts exactly. Definitely NQ archetype. Like a female Odin.
Moat Cailin = Night's Queen's Moat
I have a theory, maybe you have thought the same. In the show, Bloodraven's cave is a safe place from the Other's(and the books? Haven't read that far just yet), and in the books the castles are all built around Weirwood trees, could it be they built the castles there, not due to worship and religion, but because they were safe havens where humanity could survive? Part of the growth/conversion of the religion could be because attributed to this too.
Also what if the Hammer of the Waters was meant to keep the Other's out of Essos as part of the pact?
well it's basically the same thing, because I am saying the First en worshipped the old gods because they literally saved them during the Long Night. I do tend to think places other than Storms End and the all will turn out to be magically warded
@@DavidLightbringer It would make sense, leaders of those havens became leaders after the Long Night. I have to say, your works inspire me more than GRRM's own works.
@@iRiDiKi I like that idea, and I think there was also some wargy/ mind control magic involved in the Pact and First Men worshipping the Old Gods. I think the Andals figured this out and that's why they destroyed Weirwood trees.
Bloodraven is in Harrenhal/Castle black. Which is right outside the gods eye (MAYBE) He is the god, just fell in love and wants to be with them. The others don't exist. The only reason we thought so is due to the nature god Bael. The wights only came back AFTER they came back through the gates, remember? The people beyond the wall are the only ones that see it, unless they pass through that weird gate. Torrhen Knelt for a reason. It wasn't dragons, they couldn't see them unless the wall came down. The Hammer of waters is just the Shattering. It's what happens when the walls come down. Weir means a circular stake trap that catches fish. That and smalls dams built to help guide water upstream. They are trying to make us better people by putting us in endless cycles of violence to see how we react.
Very true, especially when we see in CoK (I think) the village of Whitetree beyond the wall built entirely under a weirwood, and when Sam is fleeing the Fist of the First men he sees another village also built under a weirwood
Iron is use against Fair folks in irl folklore. And in the cripts to keep the spirits of the kings from hunting the castle.
Edit: I think Yin was were the Bloodstone Emperor reigned, Stygi was the Palace and Ashai the capital. The betrayal happened in Westeros while they were supposed to be learning with the children of the forest.
Something like that, yeah
@@DavidLightbringer I didn't word it properly. Yin would be where he was living with his Tiger woman after the blood betrayal. Stygi was the Amethyst Empress palace, probably a temple too since they were God Emperor's. Ashai the "capital" because I think Stygi was probably off limits to the common people. The betrayal happened in Westeros. And after a few years of his reign he ended up dying in Westeros. Since we don't know how long the long night actually was. He could've been the 13 Lord commander for 13 years at the end of hi reign. Or the 13 Lord commander was his son who overthrew him and in turn got overthrown by another family member.
Love the Monty Python reference for Storm’s End! I had never picked up on that before.👍
"Knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights."
It makes me think of the Norman conquest of Britain and the coopting and reimagining of indigenous Brythonic legends into their own cultural context
@@feral7523 well I suppose you could consider Romans to be an early template for knights but it's a bit of a stretch imo, although Saint Maurice who supposedly commanded the Roman Theban Legion of the 3rd century was I believe sort of held up as a paradigm of chivalric values. That being said, here in Britain the ideas and imagery of knights and knighthood were really introduced by the Normans and popularised by means of their taking indigenous Brythonic (Celtic) legends - Arthurian tales - and adapting them to include these elements of their own culture, romanticizing them as it were
Actually, on second thought, Romans as early templates for knights is not that much of a stretch
Moat Cailin is now one of my favorites. That description reminds me of when they first discovered pyramids in South America. The maesters say there was a hammer of the waters event there as well, based on the same points you made about moat cailin. It’s starting to make sense why George takes so long on this stuff. Every line is PACKED
The part about the children fighting the first men right up untill the arrival of the others also fit the idea that the long night is what separates the dawn age from the age of heroes. It would make sense for the children to go away and break the pact after the andal invasion, since many first men converted and cut down weirwoods. It would also explain the show spoiler that the others are a weapon made by the children to stop humanity. Maybe the children went overboard and nearly destroyed the world, agreeing eventually to help men put a stop to what they both had made. What followed was the pact, which was broken by the andal invasion.
I know you don't like show canon but such a major plotpoint is unlikely to slip by accidentally. I think one of the big reveal is the truth that the others are a creation of the children, and that all of andal history is a lie.
Not quite a lie, but certainly the PR of ignorant Andals who had no way of knowing all this over a thousand years later and no reason to give a shit.
So they reduced all of Westeros under the First Men to "Bar Bar Bar shut up and cut down the trees."
,Green Zombies is totally a thing. It explains so much about how Cold Hand is what he is and what probably happened to Brandon and will happen to Jon Snow.
It seems like a sound theory and it’s stood up well over time... and yeah, I mean, Jon IS going to be a resurrected skinchanger NW brother, so positing that Coldhands is one too isn’t exactly tinfoil
I've literally never heard the spaceship theory. Now I'm just imagining it ending with a full on Close Encounters style ship decending on Kings Landing after Jon kept inexplicably sculpting the Red Keep with his mashed potatoes all book
No no, see, Dany and Jon will turn the red keep into a mashed potato sculpture with dragon fire
They need Rhaegar’s harp to play that little 5 note melody for the aliens hahaha
Thanks, that was very interesting! Your whole timeline makes sense.
Re burning tree, I've just remembered that in Christian theology, at least in the Orthodox church, the burning bush is called the Unburnt Bush and its taken to be the symbol of the Virgin Mary as mother of God. She had the divine fire inside her and didn't die but brought new life to the world. Daenerys is also an unburnt mother of fire, obviously. So is the burning tree her symbol as well?
In the sense that she represents Nissa Nissa, yes. She was a cotf I think. I’d love to see Danys plot intersect with weirwood magic at some point
I had a boss named Cockburn. Maybe he is Azor Ahai?
Great stream as always. I caught half live and half on a replay !!! Thanks Lml ... Awesome, way to sift through all that info and get a coherent timeline!!!!
Wow, LML. Some of your best work ever. Amazing. Moat Cailin was my favorite part.
Seen docs recently on how advanced South America were. Fascinating
(someone has probably already commented this but) In response to 1:54:30, you speculate on the mystery of the builders of Baratheon castle. It's interesting because there's also the Baratheon founding myth (which you also mentioned elsewhere) that the Children of the Forest helped the mythical hero build the castle.
I always miss your live streams but also want you to know I watch them all on replay. Love ya LML. Well done ,and please keep on going.
Your idea about the wedding between Dany and Jon is EPIC. You, Sir, are very perceptive when thinking there would not be enough time to have children. Wonderful content !!
Omg just got to the part where you mention 8ce spiders and them actually just being trees, reminded me so much of odin and his horse
I think that’s the idea, yeah. If Yggdrasil can be a horse, a frozen weirwood can be an ice spider. They make the world wide weir webs.
Had to revisit this after the epic sequel that just dropped
me too 😂
Okay Lucifer oh, you brought me great joy in the first few minutes of your show I adore the remix. I I'm coming to get in until I finish listening to a few other videos I just want you to know I adore you and we'll definitely have to look at Andal history.
I think the Grey King/Weirwood stuff might be a sort of parallel to Euron, showing us an Iron Islander who became a greenseer and “forced” their way into the weirwoodnet.
My man, your videos are the best!
Your channel has been my saving grace during these trying times.
100 days and nights might be more moon phase symbolism.
I remember a book I read in Hs; iirc it was called People of the Ice, that was about the comet that caused the younger Dryas and was speculative fiction about what it may have been like to live during the massive floods it caused- I really hope GRRM gives us some devastation on that level.
Gonna need to watch this one a few times for sure. Lots to digest.
Missed it! Oh well, watching now and will catch y'all on the next one.
P.S. Ice Spiders are real ;)
I almost never get to watch your livestream but I ALWAYS catch it on the replay. Love your content and love the Tool shirt. 🤘
I missed the stream but am here now.
Storms End not the only Monty Python ref is it? 🤣 Have you ever noticed when the BHWB visit Lord Lychesters castle looking for Beric in ASOS. The old knight describes a scene where he took six wounds holding the bridge against the other knight, before he killed Ser Maynard. It reads just like the Black Knight scene in the The Holy Grail. I love George for these moments because you know exactly what he was thinking when he wrote it. Have a look see what you think 😆 Arya IV ASOS
The Long Night, the winter that lasted generations, and the hammer of the waters all sound a lot like the Younger Dryas Impact Theory. A comet or meteor swarm (created by deteriorated comets) impact on the ice cap. The impact itself causes the long night, a nuclear winter, a massive tsunami (the hammer of the waters aka a hammer of water), and pushes the inhabitants of the icy north (the Others) south to survive.
Edit: lol and you talk about it at the end of the stream. Also about the Moon Meteors, meteor swarms are named for where they appear to originate so it would seem that these meteors would be coming from behind the moon and the meteors also impact the back of the moon and the rest appear to come from the edges of the moon, thus the moon "cracking open and spilling out dragons".
On the Others and Children, pulling from The Dresden Files the Others would be the Winter Sidhe and the Children would be the Summer Sidhe. Neither are good or evil just alien and they are polar enemies. To humans what is alien is scary, bad, evil, ect. But the Children are more familer and so are less "alien" than the Others. It would be natural for the Children to oppose the Others when they moved south and the humans would side with the Children because they were the less "alien".
@@post-leftluddite True, but that doesn't mean that GRRM didn't draw from it.
I think you have a great voice, and I love that song.
Iron is use against Fair folks in irl folklore. And in the cripts to keep the spirits of the kings from hunting the castle.
Now that I've watched your videos I've really started rereading the series differently. I remember you mentioned in a video how often GRRM uses "others" in descriptive terms.
I read the phase "The others followed, all but the bastard of the nightsong" (Davos ASOS) and it made me think of how jon will likely come back as an other or ice wight of sorts and how obviously he is raised as a bastard.
I also was surprised to see how close nightsong is to the ToJ when I looked into it further which really got my gears moving with the quote above.. but I'm probably reaching toward nothing lol
I don't know if anyone's commented on this before. But I do think the First Men, or at least on group of them, did have a written dialect other than the Runes. Similar to how Ancient Egyptians had Hieroglyphs for ceremonial records and Demotic script for everyday use. I mean, the Citadel supposedly dates back thousands of years before the Andals invaded, which was any time between 6000 BC to 2000 BC. I seriously doubt maesters could learn, never mind remember 2000-6000 years worth of information. So there must have been written records.
It's likely that when the Andals took control of Oldtown and House Hightower (Daemon the Devout died of "bad belly" which conjures up Jon Arryn vibes, and Septon Robeson ruled as regent for Triston Hightower for twenty years, meaning four years into Triston's adulthood when he should have stopped being regent) they rewrote and whitewashed several records.
Ahaaaa! Thiiiiiss is the one I been looking for
Yeah it’s my best attempt at tying things together without getting too too lost in the weeds
Bro I wanna become a patreon solely because of your shirt. You clearly got a good taste in music my brother!
Loved it!
yet again, timeline heresy is my safeword
"hammer my waters baby" 😂😂
@@DavidLightbringer wetter than the river rhoyne 😭
Great essay. Very well worded particularly to your voice🧐👍
I like the point made that Rhlorism is all about heat and light, making it likely to have sprung up during the Long Night. Can't remember who's video pointed that out.
Iron and steel in the historical really started when the Bronze Age collapse came. A combination of plagues, collapse of empire, a volcanic eruption (much like what destroyed Valeria), invasions, and the tin running out in the local mines. It might have been the same?
The two swords in the Elric Saga were named Mournblade and Stormbringer
At the brutality of the long night part. Have you seen “Threads”? UK TV movie made by scientists to show what the effects of Nuclear War would have. Exactly what you just mentioned.
Love the Tool shirt! As always, impeccable taste
Brynden Rivers Lord Rivers, ser
Great essay as always. I'd figured most of the timeline from your previous videos, but this one definitely organized everything in a succint way.
My biggest question though is about the chronology of bloodstone/Azor Ahai's life and the assassination of Nissa Nissa. Because if it happens in Westeros (which makes total sense as you pointed out) how does the story go back to Essos without being thought as a different legend? The confusion that comes right after her murder and the invasion of the weirwoods - either because it stirred the moon/meteors to colide with planetos, or because the Long Night was already occuring due to fallen meteors, and the expulsion of the Others - would make it impossible for the story of Nissa Nissa's murder to be known all the way down to Asshai before the end of the Long Night. By then, the surviving people of Westeros might not have the most coherent story/idea of what happened (unless the CotF told them) and would give faulty accounts to the rest of the world. I think that could justify having the story travel all the way to Asshai and be interpreted in their worldview - and thus they create the Azor Ahai myth - but doesn't make that much sense that they would relate that story with the Bloodstone emperor.
Unless he usurped his sister and killed her whilst still in the Great Empire of the Dawn, the Long Night is caused by him or is a natural event that occors so closely to his usurpation that he gets the blame for it; then he left Essos and came to Westeros to continue on his pursuit of magical powers, meets CotF Nissa Nissa, makes the ritualistic massacre, accidentaly creates the Others, and eventually dies/becomes the Night's King(?). My confusion lies on how do the essosi who wrote the GeotD's history knew about Nissa Nissa (assuming that she is the Tiger Lady he marries) if she was a westerosi CotF? Maybe she was captured by people from the GeotD who were exploring Westeros, or who were following Bloodstone's orders, brought to the GeotD were she was forcibly married to him, and then he came to Westeros with her to increase his magical powers (because thats where the weirwoods are)?
Unless the Tiger Lady was indeed from Leng. Then, the history books could still be truthful about that and the part of his life that occorred in Westeros was brought to Asshai and kept there within the Azor Ahai myth.
Also just to confirm, you think that the Night's King was the Bloodstone emperor after he invaded the weirwood net? Or it could be another guy, maybe his son? And do you still think it's possible that the Last Hero is related to the Bloodstone emperor?
Sorry for the lengthy comment 😩 (and also for any confusion; i might not have articulated my thoughts in the best way)
I know this is an older comment put you have articulated a lot of my own thoughts. The idea that azor hai, the night king and the last hero are the same person (perhaps azor hai being the cause of the long night and then the savior, with all the names of the saviors is the GeotD version of the story and the night king and last hero are the westorosi version of the story) or maybe their were multiply people who participated in starting the long night. All the fart eastern names for the last hero may just be hero’s who fight in the long night. So multiply last hero’s, combined into the singular Last hero, like the mono myth, how many mythology’s have similar stories and ideas.
This is such a vast and open topic it’s hard to say that one idea is more true than any other. Hell, maybe before the long night there was one super landform like Pangea, which would make the spreading of news of the long night spreading more feasible and how everyone has the same story. Or perhaps civilization was a lot more advanced than what we think, like winterfell having heated walls and a green house, storms end having “magic” wards against storms, any technology significantly advance enough is indiscernible from magic.
Dang it. Missed the livestream 😑
I think I was watching your Arianne II chapter read where you spoke about carved faces in stone. Maybe you're about to talk about it and I'm preempting you, (1:52:30), but if the crypts are the oldest part of Winterfell and everything else was built around it: 1. Maybe there're stone carved faces in the deepest levels, and 2: is Winterfell the Heart of Winter? Why tf it got that name? Is that what's in the deepest levels?
I recently went through your signs and portals stuff, it sounded like that a third one was meant to come- did it? Also starting listening to your Weirwood goddess stuff and didn’t realise the books had completely different payer of catpaw to the show! Does make me interested to see any big differences like that in coming books
Wow just found a thread about rideable ungulates with pictures of mounted elk. There's quite a few that have been tried in Africa, such as various antelopes and Zebra. Neat.
this is terrific!
They said I was a fool to build a castle in the swamp....
2:09:40 when you talk about a godlike figure slaying a serpent like sea monster with thunder, that is actually a recurring event in a lot of Indo-European mythology: jahwe and the leviathan, zeus and typhon, thor and the midgard serpent... And there's something in the sumerian mythology but I don't know that
Oh yes, absolutely! If you go back the Weirwood Compendium: Grey King and the Sea Dragon, I spent 20 min at least going through all that mythology. You're 100% spot on, and it's really fascinating stuff. The moon ends up being Tiamat in ASOIAF, essentially.
@@DavidLightbringer Oh cool! :) I've only learned about this stuff a few weeks ago but I had a feeling you knew this. I hadn't had a chance to watch all your compendiums yet, you are too prolific :) which is absolutely a compliment, I just don't have as much time as I want
There's also Ra and Apophis in Egyptian mithology
@@VictoriaTraducciones sadly I'm not familiar with that one, but thanks for pointing that out
LML repping Tool. Love it.
Another thing, it's not possible that the languages of the Thenns, the Skagosi and the Giants are all the same language, even if they call it "the old tongue".
It feels like "the old tongue" is whatever people spoke before adopting the Andal language
Time After Time by David Lightbringer #1 on hot 100, we been knew.
OH WE’LL BE WAITING...
Loved this (duh). Could it be that the First Men were actually two groups of people? One of them on the run from Essos to escape a life of slavery under the Great Empire of the Dawn, and the other the ever-expanding Great Empire of the Dawn itself. It is after all called the Great Empire of the Dawn (Age). This could explain something like Moat Cailin and the base of the Hightower (as you have already argued in earlier videos), and also why some Westerosi families (like Dayne, Hightower, possibly Lannister) are hinted to be rooted in the Great Empire. Perhaps it was the people who were on the run from them (most of them from The North, I guess) who made the pact with the Children. The Hammer falls / moon meteors fall, and basically ends the Great Empire of the Dawn (Age) and the Dawn Age itself. Mission accomplished, although at great cost (almost everybody dies).
Very interesting.... nice horns!
Valyria also clearly has parallels to Pompeii as well
Love your head wear!
Would you ever consider create a video with an updated timeline?
I mean this is as close as I’ll ever come probably
I love ANAGRAMS. I was writing down names of characters as GRRM pays careful attention to them, and noticed that when you take the name DAYNE. and add the letters for SER. You get the name DAENERYS. which leads me to believe SER Arthur Dayne is her father and she would be the DAYNE HEIRESS. see the sound of DAYNE HEIRESS. it’s right there when you say that aloud. Did Dany’s mom have an affair with SER Arthur DAYNE. Hmm. You can also make a name that sounds like RAYDER with Arthur. It’s RHATUR. if you say that aloud it sounds kind of like RAYDER. 🤔 aren’t anagrams fun!!
The hammer story ALWAYS seemed wrong to me I love this analysis. I also think it can be explained in an interesting way that maybe the children of the forrest and the green seers sheltered on the isle of faces when the long night commenced. It was like their holy site. And then the apocalypse happens and people saw the magic people go to that island and blamed them by correlation. Isle of faces seems very lore important but who can say why yaknow.
Hi LML, really enjoying your ideas here, as per usual! You've totally sold me on the rearranged time line - that makes perfect sense. I'm interested in your saying you don't think Jon & Dany will have a baby coz they don't have enough time. Ok, i doubt they'll have a baby (for other reasons) - but wouldn't a genuine "long night" allow time for babies? Did not old nan say that babes were born, and lived their lives, and died without ever seeing the sun in the last one? Or you think she's just exaggerating? I'm sure the book long night will be longer than the pitifully short one on the show - i was thinking for it to have a really devastating impact it would need to be a couple of years at least. Long enough so that people are desperate enough to want to "work things out" with the Others rather than just needing to defeat them. Or you think the long night is only likely to be some months?
The problem is when the others get beyond the wall it seems like it's kind of game over if everybody's not teamed up already. Also I think it's been stated that there won't be any major time jumps in the series.
I wonder if there is any connection between the men of the night's watch swearing to father no children and the practice of sacrificing babies to the others (ala Craster's sons). Your discussion of the night's watch oaths being sworn directly to the heart trees made me think about the oaths in a different context so thanks for that! Interesting stuff.
There’s a theory that the no wife and no children thing was added to the original vows after the incident with the Nights King. When Sam crosses through the wierwood gate at the Night Fort he only recites the part of being the sword in the darkness, the watcher on the wall, the shield that guards the realms of men.
Didn’t realise they took third of super chats. Remember seeing a sight called ko-fi which allowed donating too. Maybe worth looking at that too?
The perfumes seneschal is the name of the name of the ship Tyrion sails to Meereen. Moqorro explains the name to him.
So good, thank you! Move further North to Kalifornia II (aka: Oregon) 😁
IMO stay far away from those places
Always appreciate the songs about ASOIF 🤣
A thought that occurred to me while listening to you is that R'lhor and his Nameless Enemy that Melsandre speaks of (calling the Others his children) may be lovecraftian entities. Thoughts?
Also, how closely do you think The Children of the Forest and Giants are related to humans as species?
100% agree on the first. And the second must have to do with the green men
Did you know there is also a big mystery surrounding the age of the Irish round towers too - although thought to be late medieval - there are those that believe some are actually much earlier relating to the Celtic period & the druids. I do wonder if George incorporated some of that into his 'question' over the age of the round towers of Storms End & Pyke.
ua-cam.com/video/EnmZjvZC-eQ/v-deo.html
Without a doubt, the others are taken from Irish folklore as is the wall. I love history which I would say is far more interesting than any fantasy story except for ASOIAF. Because George draws of actual history for his inspiration of his fictional world. It’s a sort of alternative history with legend and mythology mixed in.
@David: Could it be that changing of the weather was the true intention of the Hammer of the Waters? Costal areas are usually milder in climate, maybe it was a try to defeat the others and the cold?
I don’t think so. It makes sense by itself but doesn’t fit with anything else we know about the event.
What if the power azor wanted is the weirwood network right , kills Nissa for access to it and then the others are like the antibodies or defense mechanism in response 🤔
Love it
It's like George wanted a connecting theme throughout his epic story encompassing all the ASOIAF books. And , you know, that he likes mythology and astronomy. Perhaps got from his sailing days?
You could attempt to just get inside the head of every single character that has anything to do with events of any importance over tens of thousands of fictional years. Or you could draw upon a framework to help you get an idea what will happen next in this vast stretching narrative. And to bring an inner 'logic' to it all. I put logic in quote marks because this ancient religion stuff is deeper than just logic.
Any theories as to why the ironmen didn't pick up the worship of the old gods? And why unlike "continental" Westeros they seem to hate weirwoods? (based on the legend of Igg anyway)
You make a fine case and may have me convinced. I do have a question: we have no mention of the Long Night in what little remains of Valyrian writing, no surprise there. The Long Night is not mentioned in all the time Daenerys spends in Slavers Bay, or with the dothraki. No it is mentioned in Quarth, where I would expect an unbroken history from the end of the Long Night at least.
I wonder why not, Sir Author certainly had room to say something about such a big event in the past.
Also, Valyria is called the Land of the Long Summer. Could the Long Night have not affected Valyria the same way? Perhaps moon meteors fell around the time summer would be approaching so most of the world would not have that growing season they count on. Perhaps moon meteors did not fall close to Valyria and Quarth, sparing them a lot of cloud cover and that could mean Ghis would have time to build an empire that would be ancient when Valyria started causing trouble.
What do you think?
Maybe it’s like the biblical flood, where either the people writing about it were being hyperbolic and/or they simply saw a phenomenon affecting their local area and since that was basically their entire world, they interpreted it as global? And that that idea of a ‘global’ phenomenon then got taken literally by later generations, and as our world expanded to beyond what the original writers could have even imagined, we’re left to try and explain how a localised phenomenon was somehow global?
Considering dragons were around planetwide during both the Dawn Age and the Age of Heroes, Valyria probably wasn't big yet. Essos has a lot of that. Big empire collapses, little state takes over.
After the Empire of the Dawn fell in the aftermath of the Long Night, Valyria rose, and may or may not have gathered all the dragons.
Praise the Garth! 🌳
Now I want to hear this spaceship theory you hate because I always thought it was the red comet that trigger the awakening of dragons n thus magic restore. A high maester told Sam that the candles are burning again. Maybe the comet is alive. Like some lovecraftian monster that summons others by its proximity
Nimble Dick took a stroll down to Most Caylin and gave them Squishers some business. Next he checked out Pike is what happened.
Late to the party here, but i have this theory that the significance of the Nights Watch saying their vows before weirwoods = the "password" to open the door through the Wall in the Night Fort.
off topic... Question: Lyanna lay in her death bed in Dorne holding blue roses, which ONLY grow in Winterfell... Where did they come from? Florists are a later development. The scent from them is mentioned, which means they were fresh. Isn't this a big inconsistency?
Ashara Dayne may have grown some. The Dayne keep is nearby, she's Arthur Dayne's sister and may or may not have briefly dated Ned 'blue roses' Stark.
Rewatch binge 🎉
Does anyone know who built the humble altar under the sept at kings landing? The sparrow shows the queen a stone altar with 4 suns or stars carved into it, it’s not in the books so why show it and why is it there, my guess is it’s a sun altar but it’s been built over and should be in sun light.
When bran wargs into hodor who do you think feels pain when something hurts them?
Both
Brynden Rivers thanks I guess? lol the way you went about it was pretty snobby in my opinion I was just being lazy and generalized the word warg and I’m pretty sure everyone understood what I was saying so I don’t see why that is important? ha it’s not like I’m trying to publish something it was just a comment on a video smh that people like to make themselves feel smart 🤦♀️
In the zodiac, Air and Fire signs (dragons) are male signs (azor ahai?), whereas Earth and Water signs (trees/Krakens/fish people/green men?) are feminine (Nissa Nissa?). Could this be a loose interpretation?? I mean the gemstone’s that the Emperors are based on somewhat coincide with the zodiac...
If GRRM wrote out the possibility that the timeline is wrong, via Sam, then isn't it almost a forgone conclusion that the proposed timeline is wrong? I have to assume so. Otherwise, he never would've suggested it in the first place.
yeah it's an obvious mystery for sure
Wait the first men cut down the Children's trees and gave them to the FIRE?! Lol were these First Men also invading at the counsel of a Fire Priestess?
I do think some of the “First Men vs the Children” stuff refers to the Great Empire of the Dawn, maybe
A thing to think about: If you came across an ancient battlefield and every iron weapon had been broken, but bronze weapons were left intact, you might fathom that the victors went out of their way to break the iron. you might think they hated iron... when exposed to liquid nitrogen, even high grades of steel become brittle and shatter easily. Bronze, however does not. It may be a useful form of armor against the weapons of the others.
yes, I've thought about the bronze - cold thing before, it's potentially why the First Men made bronze runic armor... that seems like the best thing you could make against the Others without V steel
@@DavidLightbringer definitely. there are reasons for the old ways.
Do you think GRRM might have bern inspired by Marija Gimbutas's notion of how europe was settled when describing the first men and the andals settling westeros? Her notions of the Old Europe culture before invasion from the pontic steppe, is that it was a culture of small scale chiefdoms, goddess worshiping, peaceful, perhaps matriarchal etc) do kind of remind me of the first men, in their closer relationship with nature and worship of what appears to be the gods of nature, though its not a perfect fit. she puts them in contrast to the later warlike partiarchal steppe invaders (the indo-europeans). And populations like the children then play the role of the Mesolithic European hunter gatherers, marginalised by the first wave settlers.
I don't think her cultural model quite stood the test of time but she does seem to have been more right that ppl gave her credit for at her time in the basic structure.
Timeline seems similar too, w the first wave being 9000 years ago, and the steppe invasion at 4000-5000yrs ago. Tech level is different, in reality the first wave were stone age farmers, and the 'invaders' mark the beginning of the Bronze age, but GRRM could have taken that poetic license I think.
I haven’t heard of this person but I’m aware of the general culture dispersal dynamics you’re referring to, so in a general sense, yeah there is some correlation I’d say
right exactly, its pretty common nowdays, but I think before paleogenomic evidence, most archeologists supported a notion of broad demographic continuity in europe since the neolithic, and the idea that indoeuropean language came with the first farmers from anatolia.
So I'm not sure what version of this steppe invasion would've been known to GRRM in the early-mid 90s. Prrsumably something derivative of her work
"Fearful of all...THE OTHERS."
Could the next meteor strike knock down the wall for the others? More likely than an undead dragon although the dragon was cool the way it ended in the show was silly
You might want to look at our own Bronze Age Collapse, which I believe is the primary inspiration for GRRM. The main over arching power structures collapsed, but the local powers survived and filled the power vacuum. Your assumption that pre Bottleneck structures couldn't survive is a little insulting for the tenacity George's humans. Hmm, Stormend's founding sounds like the Bloodstone Emperor
Well, I think the LN was more of a bottleneck than the Bronze Age collapse. We’re talking about 75% of humans dying out or more. Probably more like 95%.
@@DavidLightbringer the collapse lasted over 300 years, civilization (aside from Egypt) forgot how to write, and large construction (the Tower of Babel is the Great Zigarot of Babylon). Drought, famine, plagues, seismic storms, rebellions, invasion, and the loss of the main resource of the time Bronze through lack of Tin. That isn't even the first major collapse from the past, just the only one from history, as the others happened before evidence of writing. People compare the Bronze Age collapse to the Fall of Rome, that's like comparing a Hydrogen bomb with house fire. The critical thing I see is that GRRM people are either artificially suppressed, or very stupid/unlucky, as such catastrophic events ultimately benefit civilization and this doesn't appear to be true in GRRM world. Not to mention, if it was that catastrophic of loss the First Men would not exist, too little people and civilization will collapse and be unable to recover, let alone the genetic horror that would result, by the time the Andals arrive the First Men would make the Habsburgs seem like they had Jungle fever
@@DavidLightbringer also, why do you think there's so little ancestor worship in GRRM world? It was the norm for most pre Iron age religions, just an oddity I found
Just wondering, is there a reason why the mythological/ astronomical theories and sci-fi volcryn comet theory can't both be true?
Couldn't the comet itself literally be a volcryn, but all of the metaphorical astronomical elements still apply, due to the "in-world" perception being one of myth..not science?
I hope one day Preston Jacobs and LML can sit down and try to hammer out some kind of grand unified theory of ASOIAF. Both PJ and LML use mountains of evidence hiding in plain sight that nevertheless most readers don't put together on their first few read throughs. Maybe they could work together and produce a few videos for discussions and debates with a respectful 'agree-to-disagree' tone laid out beforehand. Both PJ and LML seem like level-headed dudes who would probably get along with one another in a conversational setting, even if coming at a topic from different angles. Both are clearly deeply in touch with what GRRM has been creating, and their two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. PJ's sci-fi contextualization and LML's mythological analysis actually really complement one another very well. PJ points out the two terms of sci-fi and fantasy were frequently used interchangeably back when GRRM was coming up as an author. PJ's theories form what I would consider the mechanical plot guts of the story, even if they're hidden deep in the ultra-distant background, reaching back pre EotD into the Interregnum of a collapsed spacefaring humanity degenerating in the wake of a catastrophic war with telepathic aliens that involved genetic WMDs. PJ's brutal 'magic-is-science-in-disguise' analysis is amazing and also (deliberately) disturbing to those who've mentally settled into a cozy 'Shire-like' fantasy world with ASOIAF. GRRM deliberately wants to eventually terrifyingly shock his readers out of the warm purely fantasy coziness of “the Shire” and into a colder bleaker reality, honestly almost akin to elements of WH40K, or roughly equivalent to MNS’s twist in “The Village.” On a side note, I’m neither a fan of WH40K nor MNS, but I think GRRM is engaged in pulling off something both of those universe’s attempt far less successfully. This would be the ultimate Lovecraftian perspective shift that drives both the characters in his story, and the readers of his books, into a genre bending/ breaking insanity which is ultimately very fulfilling especially with regards to GRRM’s anti-war hippy ethos. It also highlights both his respect for and differences with Tolkien. All of that said, LML can also add additional entire layers of appreciation from his in-depth knowledge of how mythological symbolism works in literature. In this way, LML's theories illuminate the premium mythological sheen that GRRM integrally weaves into his story to draw the audience further into the fantasy texture of his character archetypes, themes, and settings, etc. LML very effectively displays how GRRM deconstructs and reconstructs real world religions and folklore into a potent mythological distillation to draw in readers emotionally and psychologically by utilizing the most compelling elements of some of humanity’s oldest stories. A massive fantasy setting like ASOIAF can be infused with rich mythological references and parallels while simultaneously inhabiting a dark galactic wasteland littered with the shadow of telepathic aliens and the descendants of abandoned biowarfare programs. This seemingly extreme contrast does not prohibit one from existing alongside the other, but is in fact what actually makes GRRM’s work so incredibly amazing and impressive. He’s actually pulling off the combination of the two. Which is why I wish these two very skilled GRRM scholars could collaborate. Their joint content would be incredibly fascinating. Here’s some corny food for thought (Corn King corny food for genetically engineered telepathic thought?): PJ’s sci-fi contextualization is the colder bleaker and brutally more realistic point of view towards ASOIAF. Cold, like ice. LML’s mythological fantasy perspective is the warm cozy “Shire” point of view towards ASOIAF. Warm, like fire. If only the two could be combined somehow… maybe like a song… ASOIAF!!! A Story of Sci-Fi and Fantasy?!?!?! Lol. Oh well, I've never heard either one of them bring up the idea of collaborating though. One can hope...
❤ those horns on you, 🤘
Tigers don't have slitted eyes
Not sure if that's something George would know though