You should measure to the wall and ceiling if you have in-wall/in-ceiling speakers. If you have box speakers (bookshelf, tower etc) then you should measure to the front of the speaker.
These are Steven Smith's (HT Guru) measurements as well. The .7 multiplier for Atmos equates to 55 degrees, 45 degrees would be multiplier of 1. Not everyone watches his great tutorials so good that you presented as well.
George, I went and double checked my theater and it matches up perfectly with the .58 and .7 for the heights! I did the .7 from Steve Smith (Home Theater Gurus) which gives you 55 degrees which is closer in than Dolby says on the home spec which is 45. Steve got 55 from the Atmos studio spec sheet. When I checked my bed layer I was surprised that the L&R and rears were exactly the .58! I positioned the L&R to be right next to the screen so it just happened to be at that exact spot to get the .58(30 degree angle). Then for the rears, I originally had them closer in per Anthony Grimani’s recommendation but found they were a little too close. I literally just moved them a bit to where it seemed right and they were exactly at 30 degrees! My sides and rears are all equidistant to each other. One thing I would add to your method is that you only should measure to the wall/ceiling if you’re doing in wall speakers. If you are doing any sort of box speaker (monitor, bookshelf, tower) you need to measure distance to the front of the speaker box, not the wall. So if you’re doing bookshelf speakers for Atmos and they are 10 inches deep, subtract 10 inches from your measurement of mlp to ceiling.
That’s awesome! And thanks for adding the tip. I will add you recommendation as a pinned comment and hopefully people will see it. Thanks for letting me know about your setup. So cool it happened to follow this method and it sounds great 👍
Wish a video like this existed before I built my HT. My atmos speakers unfortunately fall into those awful dolby diagrams but still very happy with the performance. Acoustic treatment and DIRAC Live has helped a ton. Thanks for the info!
Hello and good day, thank you for all your awesome and very informative content. You mentioned that these formulas are for a 9.2.4 set up. I have a 5.2.4 set up and was wondering if you have a set of formulas for a 5.2.4 set up?? I would greatly appreciate your input/assistance Thank you
Hello and good day,thanks for all your information about the speaker placements and the formula you explain is very clear to understand for 9.2.4,and wondering if you have a set of formula for 7.2.4 set up?i would greatly appreciate your input/assistance,Thank you.
Sir, I believe you are on the right track here. During the past ten years or so I have been attempting to find the optimum placement for my speakers from 2.1 to 7.2.4. I've watched dozens of videos, read several forums, downloaded all of the Dolby speaker placement guides (the home guide is total BS), asked a couple of the "Big Guys" for advice and currently I am set-up using the results from the Audio Advice Home Theater layout calculator online. The only set-up I really think is correct is the Dolby Atmos Studio guide. If you don't hear it exactly as the Audio Engineer did how can anyone expect to hear the sound track correctly? As I said, I like your layout math and I am sure it works great for 9.x.4 or even 9.x.6. It's depressingly unfortunate that my 6 channel amp is in "sick bay" awaiting my attention. So, I am now down to 5.1. Bummer, but better than nothing. Really not that bad. I do have a thought on the front Left and Right speaker placement in systems 2.1, 3.1, 5.1 and 7.1. May experience has been it is best to have them close to the sides of a TV no more than a foot away as the characters and sounds moving off screen follow smoothly. I don't have any experience with a projector, but I'm thinking the same thing even if the speakers are behind the screen. Just my useless 2 cents. All the best, Kevin
That's a good point.. considering I have a 65 inch tv and not a projector (I prefer quality over size and my budget on sound) it might sound a bit off with the layout. But I'll mix parts of one and another and see what results it gives me. Also great explanation in the video super simple and it gives everyone who's new to this hobby a good starting point (things I wish I knew before I built my HT completely agree lol)
@@BADIDEAPRODUCTIONS1 Thanks. I hope you have a great deal of fun in your HT journey. At times frustrating, other times happy tears. All the best to you and yours, Kevin
Very nice tutorial, easy to understand. I love it. 👏 I would be happy if you can do some more tutorials like this. Like how to find the MLP. Viewing angles & avoiding sound dipp and peak. And a other one like what's the hight position on the Side walls if you have one or two rows of seats. Or how to align the speaker to the MLP and what's the benefits if you do.
Trinnov has determined, through trial and error, that the Front Wides should be placed approximately half way between the front left and right screen speakers and your first pair of side surround speakers, aimed toward the Main Listening Position. So, that makes this speaker location easy to determine. The Front Wides were implemented to fill in the sonic hole created because the distance between those speakers were normally too great for seamless panning. If your system is in a small room, the Front Wides are really not necessary.
Also note that to measurements should be based on the front of speaker (tweeter) because a bigger tower, for example, is going to affect calculations if you are going by the wall distance. Keep up to great work!
Question! Creating a DOME of speakers with this calculating formula seems like it makes sense. However. Technodad advice creating a cube/rectangle, setting heights in line with main speakers and also not closer to the listener compared to the main front speakers. Reasoning being if the sound moves straight up, with a dome, the sound will move up and towards you, rather than straight up from front speakers to the front height. Does his arguments make sense? He has done this for a long time and have been experimenting, but i mean thid formula you show here also makes the most sense to get evenly distributed sound.
Do you have any tips for placing speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen? How much space do you usually need for this setup? Is it easy to access or adjust the speakers once they’re installed?
Thank you so much for this video! I was waiting for this one and you made it so simple to follow the steps you outlined, I really appreciate it! Can't wait to put these steps into action. Building out my first home theater over the next month and I'll be sure to revisit this video when I am picking speaker locations! Just a quick question, have you had the pleasure of being in a theater that implemented the placement locations you point on this video, and if so, what did you think? Thanks!
Thanks, so glad you enjoyed it! Good luck with your build! I went to MWAVE a couple months ago and the various vendors had demo rooms set up. I’m not sure what formula they used for the speaker placement but they all sounded amazing. Thanks for watching!
Great video! Thanks for explaining it so simply. We don’t have a dedicated theater so doing the best we can in the living room. With that we have to place our side surrounds in the ceiling. I know it’s not ideal but it’s what our room will allow. Do you have any guide to how far to the left or right from the MLP they should be placed?
Glad you enjoyed it! For Side Surround speakers that have to go in the ceiling, there’s no industry standard (that I know of) for where they should be placed. Are you doing Height channels as well?
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Thanks for the quick reply. I will be installing height speakers. Would like to have a .4 atmos but our sofa has to be very close to the wall so not sure I will benefit by the rear atmos.
Very good explanation. How important are the wides? I was planning on going 7.2.4. If you eliminate the wides how would that change your L-R-side placement?
For pure sound ideally the front LR would be 30 degrees off centre, or 60 degrees between each other (same thing). However, anchoring them to the sides of the screen is more important for cohesion with what you're seeing. Given most people don't have a 60 degree viewing angle that creates a big gap between the L/R and side surrounds. The purpose of the wides is to fill that gap. It also means anyone sitting near a side surround hears some sound from in front from the wide instead of it all being right next to their head. So they're fairly important either way. But I also wouldn't lose sleep over not having them if you don't have the channels to spare.
Hi! Thank you for very good information video :) I wonder if these calculations can be used with Auro 3D / Auro-Matic setups as well? I know that Auro 3D and Dolby have somewhat different specification in layout, but if I understand you correctly, you have “corrected” Dolby's description to simplify placement. I currently have a 5.2.4 setup and use Auro-Matic upmixing in all the content I watch, even native Atmos as I simply think Auro-Matic upmixing is more engaging than Atmos. Speaker placement is not optimal, but in 3 months I will be moving, and the new room will have a little better space for speakers. Today I have the surround speakers right on the back wall near the couch, while in the new room they will actually be behind. I am therefore considering the possibility of 7.2.4 in the new room. Then I will probably also have the opportunity to place speakers based on the calculations you refer to in your video - if it also fits well with the Auro-Matic recommended placement. Thank you in advance :)
Awesome video, thank you!! Curious how you came up with the length of your riser for the second row given your room size. Planning for a similar layout like yours with mini bar behind second row. Any specific calculation for design of riser length/depth by chance that you may have used?
Thanks, glad you liked it! For my riser I set up chairs in the space and moved them around to find where I wanted them located and then built the riser around where they were placed.
is the 'main listening position' always assumed to be centered on the screen? What if it isn't - would you still put your center channel directly in front of the MLP or would it be better to center it to the screen?
The Center channel should typically be placed in the middle of the screen. For those rare times when the MLP is not centered relative to the screen, I would still place the Center channel in the middle of the screen.
Great video. Given the larger gap between the sides and the rears (with 9 vs 11 bed layer) couldn't you move the sides to be a little behind the mlp row to even out the gap a bit? That would also help with anyone in the left or right chairs in the mlp row from being too overwhelmed by the side speakers which are so close to those seats.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! Yeah, that’s a good idea. I personally like having the Sides slightly forward of the MLP but these angles aren’t set in stone so they can be adjusted to personal taste.
That is indeed how it should be done as per Dolby. Not less than 90 but up to 110. I move them JUST so I can see the tweeter so the person next to me doesnt block it. That also, like you said, allows me to keep a 60º from speaker to speaker for best panning
Quick follow-up question, can you please confirm the angles we would get between the MLP and the speakers when multiplying .58 for the ear level speakers versus what the angle would be when multiplying by .7 for the height speakers. Thank you!
It's the same multiplication whether using meter or feet, in fact you could use any measurement. You just multiply it by .58 and .7 and it'll give you the measurements in meters
Great video. Question about side surrounds. What if you don’t have side walls. Open concept. My mains are at 30 degrees. MLP 12 feet. How far would the sides be then? My couch is 12ft long.
Place your Sides directly to the side of your MLP, perpendicular to the Center channel location. You could set them a couple feet away from the edge of your couch and that should work fine.
You gave the distance to place the atmos speakers to the left and right of the listeners but not in front or behind. Is it the same formula in placing them to the front and back of the listeners.
Great video. I will double check my angles just in case. FYI I was able to solve the Atmos issue in my AVM70 and it was caused by a setting in my Sony player.
Great video! I learned alot and you definitely helped me figure out placement. Question: so I am setting up my living room, which unfortunately has vaulted ceilings. We have 10' walls and roughly a 10' vaulted ceiling. MLP sit roughly 115" from center, fronts are perfect (I guessed and got it, lol). But my atmos will have to go on the top of the wall above fronts. How far out on the wall from center (top of wall) should they go?
Great, glad you enjoyed it! If the Height speakers must be placed on the front wall, you’re probably good to place them directly over the Mains. So the Left Atmos would go directly over the Left Main and the Right Atmos would go directly over the Right main. Have you considered mounting bookshelf speakers to your vaulted ceiling for the Atmos speakers? That would be ideal. I made a video explaining how to do it. ua-cam.com/video/Dsd1iiMGVBo/v-deo.html
@GeorgeTheaterAtHome ok, that's what I figured. Luckily, this is just a living room setup so it's not a full on HT. But I still want to make it good. Due to design, I'm stuck doing 5.2.4 (maybe 7.2.4). As for the ceiling, it may be ideal. But what's ideal to me and ideal to my wife. Ahhhhhh, there's the kicker, lol.
Best tutorial ever 💪 In my case I follow the speaker placement according to the image diagram on my Denon X3800H and sound really great , I don't think my wife allow me to change the way the ceiling is again 🤤
I just returned from CEDIA 2024 in Denver. I have been attending CEDIA since 1992. ALL of these questions are addressed in the CEDIA "recommended practice 22" (RP 22). If you are serious about placement of speakers, you will obtain this document. It is the state of the art at this time. It took a couple of years of true experts to formulate this paper. It can be downloaded free. USE IT! Learn from the experts! The experts are now referring to "zones" and tend to avoid exact "angles". Good luck!
Good video, I think I'm going to have to shift that square forward a bit due to the back row being basically against the back wall. Distance from MLP ear level to ceiling is about 90" so 63" offset to speaker locations. Problem is, the rear pair would be about 6" from the base of the rear speakers so I definitely have to move the rear pair forward. The front pair can work at 63" but this places them a touch far back for the front row. I'm thinking maybe just move the whole square forward 18".
What if I don't have front wides I mean if I am running a 7.1.4 system then does the entire calculation change for the speaker placement in the bed layer and also the height speakers? and what if i am using the auro 3D placement (front height &rear heights ) does the same calculation method count please advise 🙏
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome what about the auro 3D speaker layout (front heights &rear heights) does this mean that I have to pull the front heights very near to the listening position
I don’t have an Auro 3D capable processor so I haven’t looked into how that format integrates into the Atmos layout. I’m sorry I’m not sure the best placement.
@@GAVhometheatreguide8226but why use Auro3d layout if pretty much every movie is done with Atmos? "Upmixing" Atmos movies with Auro3d is a terrible idea of that is your goal.
For a $1k budget, your best option is to purchase used equipment. I built out a great used 5.1.2 Atmos build for $700. Here’s the video. ua-cam.com/video/pdNzQCOq3SU/v-deo.html
Hi i have 11' wide by 17' long. Seating position 135"inches from center approx. These results give me 79" approx from center to left and right is too much. I have 120" diagonal awol screen. What is your suggestion. Respectfully Frank Rivera
No room is perfect, so your best option is probably to set the speakers as wide as you can at the front corners of the room. Also set the speakers out away from the walls, so they have about a foot of separation.
I watch primarily atomos content. Would it be better to run a 7.2.4 or a 5.2.6? I am currently running an Anthem MRX1140 with an all GoldenEar setup. I'm not sure the Anthem can do 6 atmos...
That’s a really good question. I think going from 5 bed layer speakers to 7 makes a noticeable difference and it is a big upgrade. I’m not sure if 6 Height channels is significantly better than 4. Me personally I would most likely prefer 7.1.4 over 5.1.6. Thanks for watching!
I have a concern that this method will place Atmos speakers in incorrect locations for Dolby Atmos mixes. Surely the Atmos speakers should go directly above your bed layer (ear level) speakers. If Atmos speakers are not directly above the bed layer for example if you place a front left Atmos speaker to the right of the Left front speaker then when a Dolby mix has a location panned directly up above your Left speaker then the sound will actually go up and to the right so more central which means it is not where the sound mixer intended the sound to come from. What do you think?
I believe the audio is mixed with the assumption the Height speakers will not be directly in line with the Side speakers. All of the documentation I have read indicates the Heights are not in line with the Sides.
The people mixing the movies are using the Dolby layout. Have you been watching joentell videos? He is spreading a lot of nonsense about atmos placement
Your main listening position distance appears to be longer than the separation between your mains, and therefore does not abide by the .58 rule. Is this just an illusion created by camera?
You’ve got a sharp eye. You are correct. When I designed this room I had a few challenges to overcome. One was a conflicting opinion of the seating arrangement. I wanted one row of seating, another person wanted two. I also did not understand the principles of angles, viewing angle, distances etc. But now that I have a better understanding, I’m sharing with others in the hope they can avoid my mistakes.
I don't take all these angles seriously. Why, because all rooms are not equal. Ceiling height, room dimensions, sometimes you don't even have a dedicated media room (but I do), acoustics, etc. I use 2 things, common sense and my ears as my best speaker angle tester. Nuff said! Enjoy!
Its Nice that only one single person is really geringonça the correct sound. 3 rows? 4 seats? No worries. 11 Will hear bad sound and only one. Probably the sponsor of the theater Will have a good experince
Dolby are wrong with speaker placement, plenty of actual audio science showing so. I also disagree with some of what you have said. Trinnov provide the best guide and explanation of speaker placement and this isn't the best way to do it. Their guide is free with a quick Google search. But in summary. All bed lair speakers go ear level if possible. Ideally no more than 1ft raised if clearing a raised rear seating etc. Obviously with multiple rows this can have to give. Obviously the centre goes in the centre as close to ear height as possible. The front left and right speakers go as close to the edge of the screen as possible regardless of angle. Preferably behind it at the edges if acoustically transparent. Anchoring to screen is more important than separation, the purpose of front wides is to fill the gap created by doing this. The sides go slightly forward or behind the side so peoples heads don't block. Whichever makes the most sense for your room. If there's no doors etc in the way forward is best as you likely sit further back in the room so it creates better separation of speakers. The front wides go exactly in the middle angularly between your sides and front l/rs to fill that gap. Rears are more flexible. Aim for a third into your room from each wall. Ideally you should have rear surrounds/rear wides too in between. Tops are zonal. No speakers should be in the wrong place for any seat including tops. So your top middle left should be to the left of all of your seats. Not just equidistant like a lot of people put them resulting in the left seat being under or to the left of the top middle left. Same rules for front and rear heights. Ideally equidistant but not if it means you have seats in front of your front tops, as they'll hear that sound from behind them. Heights are 30 to 40 degrees vertically above their associated bed lair speaker. Heights can replace front and rear tops in smaller rooms. Sound anchoring and zoning is more important than equal degrees of separation. Additional speakers can be added to fill in gaps. This gives the best sound for everyone whereas just doing degrees often gives the best sound for the MLP but compromises other seats. I'd recommend reading trinnovs guide it explains things better than I probably have here lol. Obviously different avrs are going to handle positioning like this differently so people may prefer your method for cheaper avrs like a Denon that don't do spatial audio, although Sony do so I'd never recommend D&M if on a budget if Sony's ES avrs are available in your region. Obviously something like a Trinnov or Storm if you can afford the upfront cost will obviously get you the best results when setting up using anchoring and zoning instead of degrees of separation.
0.7 on height I don't think is accurate.Please refer to Dolby Atmos Home Entertainment Studio Technical Guidelines 2021 for more accurate guideline.0.7 might get the top atmos way too far and loose the center image.
Actually, using .7 places the Height speakers at the closest distance together recommended by Dolby. The range of angles recommended by Dolby is between 30 to 55 degrees from the sidewall. Using .7 of the distance from the MLP to the ceiling places the speaker at a 55 degree from the side wall.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome hmmm,not sure how the math works on your side.I am using the tri angle formula to calculate the distance with the given height and angle.
I think it's unfortunately not that simple. I might be wrong of course. For example, a room that's say 15'x20' (mine)... with a MLP at around 14' your math puts LR on the side walls, well outside a 150" scope screen... A room that's narrower (common) gets worse. Say 13'x20' with a 13' back MLP... I think the even distribution is a good goal, but there is a reason Dolby and others have not simplified it to that level, because it doesn't work in many common room sizes. I suppose you could keep the 30 degree angle and place your L/R on the side walls at 30 degrees for example, but the ".58" measurement won't help you in determining where that is. You'll still have to use trig to get there. I'd probably suggest moving surrounds back 10 degrees (100 degrees from forward) to help fill in that rear gap, and keeping your L/R near screen edge to some degree depending on its size, and filling in with the wide halfway angle from LR and Surround. I stead of a 30 degree target, could be more like 40 degrees between all bed layer speakers with 9 at play. I think the point is, it's just not that simple. But I agree, it's a hell of a good way to think about it for a newbie. Another note, I think this may be more of the DTS:X layout spec than the Atomos layout... but I like DTS:X better for many reasons.
You are correct. For those instances where the room is too narrow, and the MLP is too far back, then the Mains will need to be placed on the side walls. To find the location, you measure the distance between the MLP and the side wall, and multiply that by 1.73. That value gives you the distance from the Side speaker to the Main along the side wall. These scenarios are fairly uncommon so I didn’t include it in the video. But yes, in those instances some modification will be necessary. Thanks for watching!
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
You should measure to the wall and ceiling if you have in-wall/in-ceiling speakers. If you have box speakers (bookshelf, tower etc) then you should measure to the front of the speaker.
These are Steven Smith's (HT Guru) measurements as well. The .7 multiplier for Atmos equates to 55 degrees, 45 degrees would be multiplier of 1. Not everyone watches his great tutorials so good that you presented as well.
George, I went and double checked my theater and it matches up perfectly with the .58 and .7 for the heights! I did the .7 from Steve Smith (Home Theater Gurus) which gives you 55 degrees which is closer in than Dolby says on the home spec which is 45. Steve got 55 from the Atmos studio spec sheet. When I checked my bed layer I was surprised that the L&R and rears were exactly the .58! I positioned the L&R to be right next to the screen so it just happened to be at that exact spot to get the .58(30 degree angle). Then for the rears, I originally had them closer in per Anthony Grimani’s recommendation but found they were a little too close. I literally just moved them a bit to where it seemed right and they were exactly at 30 degrees! My sides and rears are all equidistant to each other. One thing I would add to your method is that you only should measure to the wall/ceiling if you’re doing in wall speakers. If you are doing any sort of box speaker (monitor, bookshelf, tower) you need to measure distance to the front of the speaker box, not the wall. So if you’re doing bookshelf speakers for Atmos and they are 10 inches deep, subtract 10 inches from your measurement of mlp to ceiling.
That’s awesome! And thanks for adding the tip. I will add you recommendation as a pinned comment and hopefully people will see it. Thanks for letting me know about your setup. So cool it happened to follow this method and it sounds great 👍
very clear explanations...good job my friend!!!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Wish a video like this existed before I built my HT. My atmos speakers unfortunately fall into those awful dolby diagrams but still very happy with the performance. Acoustic treatment and DIRAC Live has helped a ton. Thanks for the info!
Enjoy your speaker placement 😆👍
Hello and good day, thank you for all your awesome and very informative content. You mentioned that these formulas are for a 9.2.4 set up. I have a 5.2.4 set up and was wondering if you have a set of formulas for a 5.2.4 set up?? I would greatly appreciate your input/assistance
Thank you
I will make a how-to video for the 5.2.4 setup. Thanks for watching and thanks for the suggestion!
Thanks a lot for your information. I too have a 5.1.4 setup & would be grateful if you could help us.
Hello and good day,thanks for all your information about the speaker placements and the formula you explain is very clear to understand for 9.2.4,and wondering if you have a set of formula for 7.2.4 set up?i would greatly appreciate your input/assistance,Thank you.
Thanks!
Thank you!🙏
Sir, I believe you are on the right track here. During the past ten years or so I have been attempting to find the optimum placement for my speakers from 2.1 to 7.2.4. I've watched dozens of videos, read several forums, downloaded all of the Dolby speaker placement guides (the home guide is total BS), asked a couple of the "Big Guys" for advice and currently I am set-up using the results from the Audio Advice Home Theater layout calculator online. The only set-up I really think is correct is the Dolby Atmos Studio guide. If you don't hear it exactly as the Audio Engineer did how can anyone expect to hear the sound track correctly? As I said, I like your layout math and I am sure it works great for 9.x.4 or even 9.x.6.
It's depressingly unfortunate that my 6 channel amp is in "sick bay" awaiting my attention. So, I am now down to 5.1. Bummer, but better than nothing. Really not that bad.
I do have a thought on the front Left and Right speaker placement in systems 2.1, 3.1, 5.1 and 7.1. May experience has been it is best to have them close to the sides of a TV no more than a foot away as the characters and sounds moving off screen follow smoothly. I don't have any experience with a projector, but I'm thinking the same thing even if the speakers are behind the screen. Just my useless 2 cents.
All the best, Kevin
That's a good point.. considering I have a 65 inch tv and not a projector (I prefer quality over size and my budget on sound) it might sound a bit off with the layout. But I'll mix parts of one and another and see what results it gives me. Also great explanation in the video super simple and it gives everyone who's new to this hobby a good starting point (things I wish I knew before I built my HT completely agree lol)
@@BADIDEAPRODUCTIONS1 Thanks. I hope you have a great deal of fun in your HT journey. At times frustrating, other times happy tears.
All the best to you and yours, Kevin
Very Helpful! Saved this video for when I can finally build our dedicated home theater room! Thank you!
You’re welcome! Glad you enjoyed it. Good luck with your future build.
Very nice tutorial, easy to understand. I love it. 👏
I would be happy if you can do some more tutorials like this. Like how to find the MLP. Viewing angles & avoiding sound dipp and peak.
And a other one like what's the hight position on the Side walls if you have one or two rows of seats.
Or how to align the speaker to the MLP and what's the benefits if you do.
Thanks, happy to hear you liked it! I’ve got some other similar videos in process. Stay tuned!
Really nice content! I was just got curious about subwoofer placement. I really enjoyed your method though
Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
Do u have a video about subwoofer placement? Thanks
Trinnov has determined, through trial and error, that the Front Wides should be placed approximately half way between the front left and right screen speakers and your first pair of side surround speakers, aimed toward the Main Listening Position. So, that makes this speaker location easy to determine.
The Front Wides were implemented to fill in the sonic hole created because the distance between those speakers were normally too great for seamless panning.
If your system is in a small room, the Front Wides are really not necessary.
Also note that to measurements should be based on the front of speaker (tweeter) because a bigger tower, for example, is going to affect calculations if you are going by the wall distance.
Keep up to great work!
Yes, excellent point. Thanks for watching!
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome keep it up! :)
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome maybe you should do follow-up video of this little point, cause i do not know how many people read them . good job
Question! Creating a DOME of speakers with this calculating formula seems like it makes sense. However. Technodad advice creating a cube/rectangle, setting heights in line with main speakers and also not closer to the listener compared to the main front speakers. Reasoning being if the sound moves straight up, with a dome, the sound will move up and towards you, rather than straight up from front speakers to the front height.
Does his arguments make sense? He has done this for a long time and have been experimenting, but i mean thid formula you show here also makes the most sense to get evenly distributed sound.
I think it comes down to personal preference. Would be interesting to experiment with the different configurations to hear which sounds better.
Do you have any tips for placing speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen? How much space do you usually need for this setup? Is it easy to access or adjust the speakers once they’re installed?
Thank you so much for this video! I was waiting for this one and you made it so simple to follow the steps you outlined, I really appreciate it! Can't wait to put these steps into action. Building out my first home theater over the next month and I'll be sure to revisit this video when I am picking speaker locations!
Just a quick question, have you had the pleasure of being in a theater that implemented the placement locations you point on this video, and if so, what did you think? Thanks!
Thanks, so glad you enjoyed it! Good luck with your build! I went to MWAVE a couple months ago and the various vendors had demo rooms set up. I’m not sure what formula they used for the speaker placement but they all sounded amazing. Thanks for watching!
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome sounds good, thank you for sharing your insight!!
The sound won't "jump" from side to mains if you don't have wides. It will be a smooth pan provided proper location, calibration and capable speakers
Great video!!!
Very informative!
Great video! Thanks for explaining it so simply. We don’t have a dedicated theater so doing the best we can in the living room. With that we have to place our side surrounds in the ceiling. I know it’s not ideal but it’s what our room will allow. Do you have any guide to how far to the left or right from the MLP they should be placed?
Glad you enjoyed it! For Side Surround speakers that have to go in the ceiling, there’s no industry standard (that I know of) for where they should be placed. Are you doing Height channels as well?
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Thanks for the quick reply. I will be installing height speakers. Would like to have a .4 atmos but our sofa has to be very close to the wall so not sure I will benefit by the rear atmos.
Very good explanation. How important are the wides? I was planning on going 7.2.4. If you eliminate the wides how would that change your L-R-side placement?
Thanks! A 7.2.4 configuration is identical to this layout, but without the Wides
For pure sound ideally the front LR would be 30 degrees off centre, or 60 degrees between each other (same thing). However, anchoring them to the sides of the screen is more important for cohesion with what you're seeing.
Given most people don't have a 60 degree viewing angle that creates a big gap between the L/R and side surrounds. The purpose of the wides is to fill that gap. It also means anyone sitting near a side surround hears some sound from in front from the wide instead of it all being right next to their head. So they're fairly important either way. But I also wouldn't lose sleep over not having them if you don't have the channels to spare.
Hi!
Thank you for very good information video :)
I wonder if these calculations can be used with Auro 3D / Auro-Matic setups as well?
I know that Auro 3D and Dolby have somewhat different specification in layout, but if I understand you correctly, you have “corrected” Dolby's description to simplify placement.
I currently have a 5.2.4 setup and use Auro-Matic upmixing in all the content I watch, even native Atmos as I simply think Auro-Matic upmixing is more engaging than Atmos.
Speaker placement is not optimal, but in 3 months I will be moving, and the new room will have a little better space for speakers.
Today I have the surround speakers right on the back wall near the couch, while in the new room they will actually be behind. I am therefore considering the possibility of 7.2.4 in the new room.
Then I will probably also have the opportunity to place speakers based on the calculations you refer to in your video - if it also fits well with the Auro-Matic recommended placement.
Thank you in advance :)
Awesome video, thank you!! Curious how you came up with the length of your riser for the second row given your room size. Planning for a similar layout like yours with mini bar behind second row. Any specific calculation for design of riser length/depth by chance that you may have used?
Thanks, glad you liked it! For my riser I set up chairs in the space and moved them around to find where I wanted them located and then built the riser around where they were placed.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome I'm a little late I know, but thanks so much for the response!
is the 'main listening position' always assumed to be centered on the screen? What if it isn't - would you still put your center channel directly in front of the MLP or would it be better to center it to the screen?
The Center channel should typically be placed in the middle of the screen. For those rare times when the MLP is not centered relative to the screen, I would still place the Center channel in the middle of the screen.
Great video. Given the larger gap between the sides and the rears (with 9 vs 11 bed layer) couldn't you move the sides to be a little behind the mlp row to even out the gap a bit? That would also help with anyone in the left or right chairs in the mlp row from being too overwhelmed by the side speakers which are so close to those seats.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! Yeah, that’s a good idea. I personally like having the Sides slightly forward of the MLP but these angles aren’t set in stone so they can be adjusted to personal taste.
That is indeed how it should be done as per Dolby. Not less than 90 but up to 110. I move them JUST so I can see the tweeter so the person next to me doesnt block it. That also, like you said, allows me to keep a 60º from speaker to speaker for best panning
Quick follow-up question, can you please confirm the angles we would get between the MLP and the speakers when multiplying .58 for the ear level speakers versus what the angle would be when multiplying by .7 for the height speakers. Thank you!
.58 is for a 30 degree angle and .7 is for a 35 degree angle
Where are the measurements coming from i cant find it. I'm used to meters so this was hard to follow, but i cant find any.
.58 creates a 30 degree angle. .7 creates a 55 degree angle from the side wall.
It's the same multiplication whether using meter or feet, in fact you could use any measurement. You just multiply it by .58 and .7 and it'll give you the measurements in meters
Great video. Question about side surrounds. What if you don’t have side walls. Open concept. My mains are at 30 degrees. MLP 12 feet. How far would the sides be then? My couch is 12ft long.
Place your Sides directly to the side of your MLP, perpendicular to the Center channel location. You could set them a couple feet away from the edge of your couch and that should work fine.
What model In ceiling speakers are you guys using? I’m looking for something around 6” profile.
I have the GoldenEar Invisa 650 in-ceiling speakers.
You gave the distance to place the atmos speakers to the left and right of the listeners but not in front or behind. Is it the same formula in placing them to the front and back of the listeners.
Yes, same formula for calculating front and back.
Can you apply this same method for a 5.1.4 configuration
I’ve had a few requests for a 5.1.4 video so I will make one. Thanks for watching!
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome thank you for sharing 🙏
Great video. I will double check my angles just in case. FYI I was able to solve the Atmos issue in my AVM70 and it was caused by a setting in my Sony player.
Thanks glad you liked it! Happy to hear you found the issue. I was scratching my head on that one.
Great video! I learned alot and you definitely helped me figure out placement.
Question: so I am setting up my living room, which unfortunately has vaulted ceilings. We have 10' walls and roughly a 10' vaulted ceiling. MLP sit roughly 115" from center, fronts are perfect (I guessed and got it, lol). But my atmos will have to go on the top of the wall above fronts. How far out on the wall from center (top of wall) should they go?
Great, glad you enjoyed it! If the Height speakers must be placed on the front wall, you’re probably good to place them directly over the Mains. So the Left Atmos would go directly over the Left Main and the Right Atmos would go directly over the Right main. Have you considered mounting bookshelf speakers to your vaulted ceiling for the Atmos speakers? That would be ideal. I made a video explaining how to do it.
ua-cam.com/video/Dsd1iiMGVBo/v-deo.html
@GeorgeTheaterAtHome ok, that's what I figured. Luckily, this is just a living room setup so it's not a full on HT. But I still want to make it good. Due to design, I'm stuck doing 5.2.4 (maybe 7.2.4).
As for the ceiling, it may be ideal. But what's ideal to me and ideal to my wife. Ahhhhhh, there's the kicker, lol.
Best tutorial ever 💪 In my case I follow the speaker placement according to the image diagram on my Denon X3800H and sound really great , I don't think my wife allow me to change the way the ceiling is again 🤤
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
I just returned from CEDIA 2024 in Denver. I have been attending CEDIA since 1992. ALL of these questions are addressed in the CEDIA "recommended practice 22" (RP 22). If you are serious about placement of speakers, you will obtain this document. It is the state of the art at this time. It took a couple of years of true experts to formulate this paper. It can be downloaded free. USE IT! Learn from the experts! The experts are now referring to "zones" and tend to avoid exact "angles". Good luck!
Sounds good, thanks for the recommendation. I’ll check it out.
Would love to see the same info on a 5.1.4 system.
Ask and ye shall…
ua-cam.com/video/vuZ56_zHLTI/v-deo.html
I found your video. Thanks
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome thanks..love your channel!
Good video, I think I'm going to have to shift that square forward a bit due to the back row being basically against the back wall. Distance from MLP ear level to ceiling is about 90" so 63" offset to speaker locations. Problem is, the rear pair would be about 6" from the base of the rear speakers so I definitely have to move the rear pair forward. The front pair can work at 63" but this places them a touch far back for the front row. I'm thinking maybe just move the whole square forward 18".
Yeah, there are always compromises to be made. Sounds like it should still work well with the speakers shifted slightly forward.
Hello and thanks for this great Information, is it the same to the metric System ❤
Yes, it also works with the metric system
What if I don't have front wides I mean if I am running a 7.1.4 system then does the entire calculation change for the speaker placement in the bed layer and also the height speakers? and what if i am using the auro 3D placement (front height &rear heights ) does the same calculation method count please advise 🙏
The calculation for bed layer and Height speakers in a 7.1.4 configuration will be the same as in this video.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome what about the auro 3D speaker layout (front heights &rear heights) does this mean that I have to pull the front heights very near to the listening position
I don’t have an Auro 3D capable processor so I haven’t looked into how that format integrates into the Atmos layout. I’m sorry I’m not sure the best placement.
@@GAVhometheatreguide8226but why use Auro3d layout if pretty much every movie is done with Atmos?
"Upmixing" Atmos movies with Auro3d is a terrible idea of that is your goal.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome thank you for the prompt reply
That’s the Audessey supposed to adjust the sound wherever the speaker located?
Not exactly. You need proper installation or your speakers wont be able to "connect"the sound of the angle is too large
Could you recommend a budget of $1K Atmos Dolby build?
For a $1k budget, your best option is to purchase used equipment. I built out a great used 5.1.2 Atmos build for $700. Here’s the video.
ua-cam.com/video/pdNzQCOq3SU/v-deo.html
Hi i have 11' wide by 17' long. Seating position 135"inches from center approx. These results give me 79" approx from center to left and right is too much. I have 120" diagonal awol screen. What is your suggestion. Respectfully Frank Rivera
Can you move your seating position closer to the screen?
@GeorgeTheaterAtHome kind of difficult also too close to the screen
No room is perfect, so your best option is probably to set the speakers as wide as you can at the front corners of the room. Also set the speakers out away from the walls, so they have about a foot of separation.
Which wall speakers should I buy without breaking the bank?
Look into Elac on-wall speakers. I’ve listened to them and they are serious bang-for-your-buck value. amzn.to/3TwtnvB
I watch primarily atomos content. Would it be better to run a 7.2.4 or a 5.2.6? I am currently running an Anthem MRX1140 with an all GoldenEar setup. I'm not sure the Anthem can do 6 atmos...
That’s a really good question. I think going from 5 bed layer speakers to 7 makes a noticeable difference and it is a big upgrade. I’m not sure if 6 Height channels is significantly better than 4. Me personally I would most likely prefer 7.1.4 over 5.1.6. Thanks for watching!
I have a concern that this method will place Atmos speakers in incorrect locations for Dolby Atmos mixes. Surely the Atmos speakers should go directly above your bed layer (ear level) speakers.
If Atmos speakers are not directly above the bed layer for example if you place a front left Atmos speaker to the right of the Left front speaker then when a Dolby mix has a location panned directly up above your Left speaker then the sound will actually go up and to the right so more central which means it is not where the sound mixer intended the sound to come from.
What do you think?
I believe the audio is mixed with the assumption the Height speakers will not be directly in line with the Side speakers. All of the documentation I have read indicates the Heights are not in line with the Sides.
The people mixing the movies are using the Dolby layout. Have you been watching joentell videos? He is spreading a lot of nonsense about atmos placement
Your main listening position distance appears to be longer than the separation between your mains, and therefore does not abide by the .58 rule. Is this just an illusion created by camera?
You’ve got a sharp eye. You are correct. When I designed this room I had a few challenges to overcome. One was a conflicting opinion of the seating arrangement. I wanted one row of seating, another person wanted two. I also did not understand the principles of angles, viewing angle, distances etc. But now that I have a better understanding, I’m sharing with others in the hope they can avoid my mistakes.
Measure? Multiply? I thought this was supposed to be easy! 😂
Awesome video my friend. Could you possibly do one on acoustic treatments and where to place them??
Got that one in the works. New acoustic panels are being delivered today and hope to have the video out in the next week or two. Thanks for watching!
@@Bonze661 seconding this video idea, can’t wait to watch that one!!
I don't take all these angles seriously. Why, because all rooms are not equal. Ceiling height, room dimensions, sometimes you don't even have a dedicated media room (but I do), acoustics, etc. I use 2 things, common sense and my ears as my best speaker angle tester. Nuff said! Enjoy!
Was thinking the same thing
What subwoofers do you use in your system and how many years have you had them?
I have the Episode 15” subs. I’ve had them about 2 1/2 years. Would like to eventually upgrade but we’ll see when/if I can make it happen.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome sweet have you been looking into the new klipsch rp1600sw those subs out perform the svs pb16 ultra.
Those Klipsch look beastly! I would love to give them a try. I’m also looking at the going the DIY route with the GSG subs.
Its Nice that only one single person is really geringonça the correct sound. 3 rows? 4 seats? No worries. 11 Will hear bad sound and only one. Probably the sponsor of the theater Will have a good experince
Dolby are wrong with speaker placement, plenty of actual audio science showing so. I also disagree with some of what you have said. Trinnov provide the best guide and explanation of speaker placement and this isn't the best way to do it. Their guide is free with a quick Google search. But in summary.
All bed lair speakers go ear level if possible. Ideally no more than 1ft raised if clearing a raised rear seating etc. Obviously with multiple rows this can have to give.
Obviously the centre goes in the centre as close to ear height as possible.
The front left and right speakers go as close to the edge of the screen as possible regardless of angle. Preferably behind it at the edges if acoustically transparent. Anchoring to screen is more important than separation, the purpose of front wides is to fill the gap created by doing this.
The sides go slightly forward or behind the side so peoples heads don't block. Whichever makes the most sense for your room. If there's no doors etc in the way forward is best as you likely sit further back in the room so it creates better separation of speakers.
The front wides go exactly in the middle angularly between your sides and front l/rs to fill that gap.
Rears are more flexible. Aim for a third into your room from each wall. Ideally you should have rear surrounds/rear wides too in between.
Tops are zonal. No speakers should be in the wrong place for any seat including tops. So your top middle left should be to the left of all of your seats. Not just equidistant like a lot of people put them resulting in the left seat being under or to the left of the top middle left. Same rules for front and rear heights. Ideally equidistant but not if it means you have seats in front of your front tops, as they'll hear that sound from behind them.
Heights are 30 to 40 degrees vertically above their associated bed lair speaker. Heights can replace front and rear tops in smaller rooms.
Sound anchoring and zoning is more important than equal degrees of separation. Additional speakers can be added to fill in gaps. This gives the best sound for everyone whereas just doing degrees often gives the best sound for the MLP but compromises other seats.
I'd recommend reading trinnovs guide it explains things better than I probably have here lol. Obviously different avrs are going to handle positioning like this differently so people may prefer your method for cheaper avrs like a Denon that don't do spatial audio, although Sony do so I'd never recommend D&M if on a budget if Sony's ES avrs are available in your region. Obviously something like a Trinnov or Storm if you can afford the upfront cost will obviously get you the best results when setting up using anchoring and zoning instead of degrees of separation.
0.7 on height I don't think is accurate.Please refer to Dolby Atmos Home Entertainment Studio Technical Guidelines 2021 for more accurate guideline.0.7 might get the top atmos way too far and loose the center image.
Actually, using .7 places the Height speakers at the closest distance together recommended by Dolby. The range of angles recommended by Dolby is between 30 to 55 degrees from the sidewall. Using .7 of the distance from the MLP to the ceiling places the speaker at a 55 degree from the side wall.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome hmmm,not sure how the math works on your side.I am using the tri angle formula to calculate the distance with the given height and angle.
Who's got room for 9.2.4.....Certainly nobody here in the UK 😆
How about 5.1.2?
ua-cam.com/video/vuZ56_zHLTI/v-deo.html
I'm not that lucky, I'm done with 7.1.2...
I think it's unfortunately not that simple. I might be wrong of course. For example, a room that's say 15'x20' (mine)... with a MLP at around 14' your math puts LR on the side walls, well outside a 150" scope screen... A room that's narrower (common) gets worse. Say 13'x20' with a 13' back MLP...
I think the even distribution is a good goal, but there is a reason Dolby and others have not simplified it to that level, because it doesn't work in many common room sizes. I suppose you could keep the 30 degree angle and place your L/R on the side walls at 30 degrees for example, but the ".58" measurement won't help you in determining where that is. You'll still have to use trig to get there. I'd probably suggest moving surrounds back 10 degrees (100 degrees from forward) to help fill in that rear gap, and keeping your L/R near screen edge to some degree depending on its size, and filling in with the wide halfway angle from LR and Surround. I stead of a 30 degree target, could be more like 40 degrees between all bed layer speakers with 9 at play. I think the point is, it's just not that simple. But I agree, it's a hell of a good way to think about it for a newbie.
Another note, I think this may be more of the DTS:X layout spec than the Atomos layout... but I like DTS:X better for many reasons.
You are correct. For those instances where the room is too narrow, and the MLP is too far back, then the Mains will need to be placed on the side walls. To find the location, you measure the distance between the MLP and the side wall, and multiply that by 1.73. That value gives you the distance from the Side speaker to the Main along the side wall. These scenarios are fairly uncommon so I didn’t include it in the video. But yes, in those instances some modification will be necessary. Thanks for watching!
That’s the Audessey supposed to adjust the sound wherever the speaker located?
The better the speaker placement the less Audessey has to tweak= better results.