The counter mechanic seems a bit archaic and outdated to me in Elden Ring, considering how much tracking most thrusting weapons have. It was initally introduced to compensate for the poor tracking they had in early FS titles. Now the tracking is godlike but the counter-hit mechaic remains
@@thegk-verse4216 I don't think it's intentional. I don't think what's good and bad in this game represents a conscious choice by the developers. It's practically random. PvP balance in these games has always been implemented in a very sloppy way. This game is certainly a bit more polished, which makes sense as from soft has grown progressively, especially since its release. But it's still extremely sloppy, and while they have maybe double the resources they had for DS3, with Elden Ring they have like 5 times as many things to balance. That's why there are still tons of bugs. Think about aim punch, that was present for over a year I think. A catastrophic bug that completely neutralized multiple weapon classes for PvP. And those are weapon classes that are already next to useless in PvE, since you can't safely trade blows with a giant dragon that deals 70% of your HP bar and stuns you with each attack. The ONLY point of colossal weapons was to trade with other players, and they couldn't even get that right for over a year, thanks to a bug that made it so you frequently did zero damage if you tried to trade. And it still hasn't been fully fixed, it's still possible to miss, they just attenuated the rig distortion so it's like 10% as bad as it used to be. So anyway, we're not dealing with an intentional design philosophy that favors small weapons. If anything, from soft favors big heavy weapons. After all, these games are inspired by Berserk. We wouldn't have massive boss weapons in these games if they didn't like big heavy weapons. But the big heavy weapons were bad in this game by accident. They've gotten progressively better since launch, except for the fix for their broken crouch poke. Which of course needed to be fixed. Before that was fixed, the only attack worth doing with a colossal sword or serpent hunter was the crouch poke. Now it's more balanced overall, the weapon's overall moveset is more usable. With the extra absorption during hyper armor attacks, it got a lot better. But it's still not as good in duels as fast weapons, nor is it as good in invasions as sorceries or incantations. I think there are just too many things in this game for them to correctly balance anything. Too many things to keep straight. Too many weapons and spells and modifiers. Everything has to be considered in terms of all the other things it can be combined with. Jump attacks have to be considered in light of the claw talisman (or had to be, before its gigantic nerf lol). Everything has to be considered in light of the wide variety of buffs that can go crazy. In invasions, dragon breath and giantsflame incantations are insane, easily one-shotting overleveled phantoms at high arcane/faith levels. But if they were nerfed, they'd be useless for more normal builds. How do you balance RL125 without imbalancing RL200 or RL400? It's just a lot, the game is too big to be balanced by such a small team. And there's no incentive for them to hire more and put more heads on this project, as they've already cashed out on it. Finally balancing Elden Ring PvP is not going to make them any more money, they already got your money, and it's not like they're gonna sell a "Shadow of the Fixed PvP" DLC for $15, but even if they did, it would probably still be broken, since they're just not capable of fixing one thing without breaking another.
Btw I will say colossals are much better in invasions than in duels, they are definitely usable, so you can certainly win lots of invasions with a strength build. It may not be the best thing you can do, but there are some really strong ashes of war that you can only use on colossals, like waves of darkness or golden land. They're not the best by any means, like bloodboon ritual is still ridiculously strong even after a nerf, and if you use it right, endure + dragon breath is the most broken thing in the game. But strength is still viable, and it doesn't really matter what's the best, all that matters is can you win an invasion with it. So anything that is good for turn-and-burns, knocking people off ledges, stunning and damaging multiple players at once, etc., is gonna be viable. And in invasions, thrusting swords aren't that great. I mean, once you've killed all the phantoms, they're really good for chasing down a running host. So you certainly want one in your repertoire. But they're not good at keeping you alive, which is what matters most. A good invasion build has to have a lot of different tools, and you can certainly do a colossal build that has the right tools. So I'd think about it in terms of balancing builds, not balancing weapons. The problem is just that duel builds mostly revolve around one or two weapons, there's not a lot of weapon swapping, since duels are a very static encounter compared to invasions, which are very dynamic. And so duels are always going to highlight the imbalances between weapons in a way that invasions don't, since there's no reason to swap weapons, you just build around one thing, maybe two. That's why I just don't play duels anymore, I don't really find it fun even if it was well balanced so you'd see a lot of variety and get to play with whatever you want. I don't like the spirit ash colosseum either, mainly because it's imbalanced, but it's never not gonna be imbalanced, since spirit ashes are part of the PvE progression. If every spirit ash was equally good, there'd be no excitement around getting the mimic tear or the dung eater puppet.
Coming back to this video just to say that it's wild that pre-DLC they nerfed Thrusting Swords slightly to where they weren't nearly as braindead and broken, and then immediately buffed them again (for some reason) after the DLC's release to poise-break everyone Because Miyazaki wants PvP to involve everyone wearing full Solitude armor while using solely Shamshirs and Cleanrot Knight Swords
good take about the thrusting swords, i've been thinking that probably from all of them no thrusting sword is bad, sure as you said, cleanrot is probably the strongest one, but even with that the other ones are pretty good options, like; antspur for scarlet rot build up, rapier for a reliable weapon and for fishing/ripostes, rogiers which has an interesting heavy attack, or even the frozen needle which is the weakest and almost the shortest from all of them, it has a projectile that gives 3/4 times its own range with not fp cost, and if you know how to free-aim it is a pretty interesting weapon to play with.
ArcDominuz has a tutorial on the frozen needle, very interesting weapon. All of the Thrusting Swords are good to great, the cleanrot is just the best though
Thrusting swords both hand take less stamina than daggers both hand I'm not good this weapon yet but now i use this weapon (blood infuse ) to bleed the great dragon lying in Dragon Barrow.
I’m pretty sure I ran into you last night while you where getting footage for this because I recognize the character I also immediately thought “wow 2h cleanrot what a shitter” no hard feelings lol.
@SgtJager-pq7tt I'm a huge fan of Bionicle. Have been since I was yay high. Those things have stuck with me for years. Along with the soundtrack from the original 3 films and the Mask of Light Video game ost 😁
Thrusting swords have always been a top-tier weapon for the reasons you laid out in the video. In DS 3 the name of the game was getting quick hit stun to pressure/panic your opponent. With the changes in 1.10 they do the same here. Any weapon that is at the frontier of what can be reaction rolled becomes an insanely deadly threat. When I started using offstoc in DS 3 it was such a game-changer for me, and it helped me understand the game better than I ever had. Against an experienced opponent it is a strong weapon but it is a total noob slayer. Noobs just panic roll, and I understand why. Side note - in DS 3 people often rocked either offstoc or offhand hand axe. The hand axe was sweeping while obviously estoc was thrusting. Hand axe was preferrable on PS4 because at 30 fps, the estoc was more easily strafed. On PC @ 60 fps, the tracking was soooo good, and it made estoc the stronger option.
Speed is king when it comes to the viability of a weapon, especially in 1v1s. I agree 100% Bro ds3 estoc was such good weapon balance, I wish ers resembled it at least in the tracking department. Wait your FPS made estoc track better? That's actually crazy.
@@SgtJager00 yes Estoc was so much stronger at 60 fps. I didn’t understand why more ps4 players didn’t use estoc until I started talking to them about it. That’s when we realized how important the frame rate was for tracking.
@@Dautar748 thrusting swords...meh? In DS 3? They're insanely strong. PK and murky are the only weapons that are stronger imo. Estoc pairs well with a shield, or you can use the estoc in your offhand and pressure the everliving shit out of your opponent.
Awesome video, I would like to point out that another reason thrusting weapons are overpowered besides what you already mentioned is also due to latency and phantom reach because, meaning that if you encounter someone with a bad connection and a thrusting sword or a heavy thrusting sword will be a nightmare to handle. Fun fact thrusting weapons were an issue for similar reasons in Dark Souls 2 for similar reasons DS2 have the same graphic motor as Elden Ring as far as I am aware.
honestly the real problem TS have in regards to ER pvp is simply the fact that its start up and recovery is blazing fast compared to anything else but has relatively the same dmg plus counters. imagine TS with around the same speed as a SS and it's suddenly not as oppressive (glitches and bugs aside ofc) this was almost the same problem it had in DS3 where in it was so fast that nothing could compete with even when your animation started before they swung they would still be able to get out due to its quick recovery, this also resulted in a far more grievous problem is that if spammed it caught people at the end of their rolls almost exactly the same way it does in ER. this leads to an absolutely oppressive weapon that it borders on abuse. a 2 frame nerf to its start up and around 2-5 to its recovery would still make it a great catching or initiating weapon but turns it into a hit and run which also lends to its "speedy" playstyle. dropping down to dagger will simply replace daggers thus deleting another weapon class from seeing the light of day.
There's this one guy I run into sometimes who's fully mushroom bodied out with a bhs bleed cleanrot and my goal when fighting them is to beat my previous record of hits landed. Pretty sure my best was 7 hits! I think I've beaten them once, but I guarantee it was a fluke because every subsequent attempt was business as usual. There's also this other guy who's poise maxed out with a bleed Antspur who shield pokes behind fingerprint but that's a whole other can o worms.
I fought you earlier today in the arena and you won. You were using the cleanrot and I was using dual lances and it literally felt like there was nothing I could do. It’s insane how good thrusting swords
My go to when struggling with a boss is always a thrusting sword because the dmg is pretty good and the speed is insane. Poke -> dodge -> poke -> dodge Works every time. Sure, strength builds are fun, but the amount of punish windows you have with a thrusting sword like the estoc or cleanrot sword is almost always twice or thrice as much as something like a great or colossal sword/weapon. It's also great for status effects like bleed because during bigger openings you can get 2 or 3 hits in.
I simply don't get the decision behind the ghost hitbox. And this applies to all weapons. Why can't the hitbox be... just the actual size of the weapon? If it's a big mallet, then let the hitbox be a big a** cube. If it's a tiny toothpick, let it be thin and narrow, easily staifable. You know, just do things that make sense.
The early ash of war cancel also happens with raptors of the mist and unlike bhs and quickstep this means it can reliably escape frame traps with zero end lag.
That's why for tournament and ladder matches cleanrot is not allowed in main hand and estoc ,cleanrot ,Nobel thrusting swords and not allowed in offhand🙏
It’s funny that people looked to ER’s ash system to give other weapons a shot but now what we have is a longer range, higher damage murky with counter damage lol
On my arc/dex character the estoc slightly outdoes the cleanrot sword's damage on a bleed infusion, though thats the only time I've seen that happen. I think one way to balance out thrusting swords would be by massively speeding up the animation for the Moonveil L2. It would make thrusting swords more reasonable and give Moonveil a much needed buff. Win win, really.
Great video, I was just thinking about this bc I meet so many players in the arena that will wield offstoc or 2h thrusting swords and I have no idea how to counter it (it's oppressive af mald inducing honestly, or a skill issue). Here's to hoping they get fixed/nerfed in the near future, meanwhile I was wondering what would you say is a good (temporary) counter to this kind of playstyle/setup?
The only thing i can think of is sleep and madness phantom hits. Even then i dont even think it’ll work if the other guy is really good. Plus the thrusting sword guy can just use his own sleep buffs.
I recently got into pvp after beating the game a few times, felt like i had enough skill and was invaded enough times to know how to handle anything. I actually have a pretty good record of id say winning about 60-70% of all my matches. However, i think out of about 15 or so matches against a thrusting sword ive only beaten one or two. They’re ridiculous and i know thrusting in general is great which is why i use a piercing fang ash of war but when its the entire moveset it just gets insane. Thanks for the info glad im not alone
Edit: offstoc bug is in the game for like the 7th month now. It is kinda absurd lol TS is borked due to the offhand glitch : |. It can be really dumb in invasions. HTS can also be a meme at times
@@SgtJager00 I know right, it is as if they WANT this game to be perceived as PVE only lol. Balance in shambles, bugs everywhere... meh I lost hope when that last small patch came out on PC... it felt like an actual slap to the face
On same grounds why no one questions psss as bugged, like offstock the psss dose same poise damage on all hits and that too more than 133,they can keep mashing without a worry in the world 🙏
thrusting swords have always been a bit of a nightmare to balance in souls titles, it's either damage output, being able to poise through attacks to out trade the other person or simply being able to break someone elses poise, this is kinda the reason why you see lionel with thrusting swords as it is a call back to old builds of how people used to wear heavy armor with a thrusting sword as to be able to continue thrusting without getting their poise broken, this is also why one of the most infamous regular enemies in the game are thrusting swords enemies with unexplicably high poise namely the page guy, the weird thing is that you can't really replicate this in pve which makes the thrusting swords kinda meh in pve, but you can sort of abuse this in pvp.
I main hand a zweihander And offhand a estoc Idk about how good that is in the meta But it definitely feels almost busted Trade Then thrust And the poise changes means if you challenge it Youll just get poked repeatedly But if they back off they live off the trade
I remember running dual estocs with quick step and the pressure was insane The only ppl that could escape was those who light rolled backwards Anything else And I was just glued to you Genuinely no escape
They can't be countered really under any circumstances, players magically run 3x faster with them it seems, the damage doesn't stop and they do like 1000 dmg a hit. There's no way around saying they need to be greatly nerfed.
Not only are they cracked but they’re very very very hard to parry even with the broken parry ashes compared to similarly fast and spammable r1s like psss and claws running r1 I’ve almost never been parried or parried consistently when running cleanrot
I remember the first time I tried cleanrot after being used to antspur. I instantly found my fav weapon lol they ain’t as good as this guy says tho. They def have counters and certain setups they don’t do well again
this is one of the issues with having both pve and pvp in a game like this, they're pretty mid in pve but overpowered in pvp so if you nerf it for pvp the pve side suffers for no reason I know they separated pve and pvp nerfs for some things in elden ring but nerfs to tracking and speed would most likely be applied to both
From a point of outsider who barely started the game, ER pvp seems like a buggy and laggy mess which will never be balanced. Maybe its time to wipe the slate clean and not allow anything bigger than a dagger as your off hand?
These are good changes but only when they are considered in a vacuum. I would rather thrusting swords be stupid and good-looking, while setups like sleep halberd, bleed starfist, and paired spears are even dumber and extremely ugly and take absolutely no skill. I think the same thing about the shamshir (though that sword in particular is really ugly). It should not be nerfed while those other setups exist.
I've always found it frustrating that the models don't match the hitboxes. Remember PKCS? Probably. It had insane ghost range. Remember the storm curved sword? Probably not. Visually it was very long, but the hotboxes disagree. So unintuitive!
nerf them into the ground. reduce tracking increase recovery slow the chain so you cant just spam r1 reduce the forward momentum so it dosent go 20 fucking feet and reduce horizontal hitbox
Elden Ring is balanced towards PvE, not PvP (despite all the patches updated in). PvP isn't meant to be competitive and never will be (Colosseum was meant to humor us). I don't participate in duels because of all this. That being said, I often Co-op and invade, usually between level 52-125, where damage, builds, and playstyles are at their best and most fun (for me). I don't have to care about balance if the game itself encourages me not to. However, I found overall balance at its best with Dark Souls 3. You couldn't slap on an ash of war on any weapon, thrusting weapons are less viable (especially Shield poke), plus boss fights didn't boil down to two things; hit and run, or spam a ranged AoW.
I mean, showcasing this is all well and good. But ultimately any "souls" game has always been primarily designed for PvE. The PvP aspect is secondary, and even the concept of an invasion is meant to be akin to a powerful PvE mini boss (Miyazaki's own words there). So I can understand the frustration in a purely "competitive" pvp environment. However, Elden ring and past souls games are NOT competitive. The only exception here is that From Soft has done great work in implementing PvP versions of the PvE mechanics. So perhaps the solution is to fix the thrusting swords when the PvP flag is toggled on. Apart from that, I have no issue with a thrusting sword doing what it currently does when I am just playing through the game normally.
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With so many cheese options in the game, thrusting swords are the last thing that need changed 😂.. just because a skilled player can be godly in pvp (only) doesn't need they need to "fix" or change the weapons.
Thrusting swords are NOT op if you use them honestly, ie not only two hand r1 spamming with BHS, tumble damage buffing and infused with rot, and when duel welding them they are actually severely underpowered, especially after patch 1.08. They have bad stun, bad hyper armour, terrible range, and could do more damage, especially charged attacks
@@___.51 I don't know what that means. But I switched to thrusting swords for duels for a while some time ago. I had never used them for that, but right away I was winning most matches. Sometimes I was winning against players that I thought were better than me. I stopped using thrusting swords in duels.
"cleanrot sword"
you were at my side all along
my true mentor
my guiding moonlight
Ahhhh... my true mentor... my guiding moonlight! *horse noises.*
The counter mechanic seems a bit archaic and outdated to me in Elden Ring, considering how much tracking most thrusting weapons have. It was initally introduced to compensate for the poor tracking they had in early FS titles. Now the tracking is godlike but the counter-hit mechaic remains
They can't handle a fast weapon not being top tier smh, meanwhile colossals
@@thegk-verse4216 I don't think it's intentional. I don't think what's good and bad in this game represents a conscious choice by the developers. It's practically random. PvP balance in these games has always been implemented in a very sloppy way. This game is certainly a bit more polished, which makes sense as from soft has grown progressively, especially since its release. But it's still extremely sloppy, and while they have maybe double the resources they had for DS3, with Elden Ring they have like 5 times as many things to balance. That's why there are still tons of bugs. Think about aim punch, that was present for over a year I think. A catastrophic bug that completely neutralized multiple weapon classes for PvP. And those are weapon classes that are already next to useless in PvE, since you can't safely trade blows with a giant dragon that deals 70% of your HP bar and stuns you with each attack. The ONLY point of colossal weapons was to trade with other players, and they couldn't even get that right for over a year, thanks to a bug that made it so you frequently did zero damage if you tried to trade. And it still hasn't been fully fixed, it's still possible to miss, they just attenuated the rig distortion so it's like 10% as bad as it used to be.
So anyway, we're not dealing with an intentional design philosophy that favors small weapons. If anything, from soft favors big heavy weapons. After all, these games are inspired by Berserk. We wouldn't have massive boss weapons in these games if they didn't like big heavy weapons. But the big heavy weapons were bad in this game by accident. They've gotten progressively better since launch, except for the fix for their broken crouch poke. Which of course needed to be fixed. Before that was fixed, the only attack worth doing with a colossal sword or serpent hunter was the crouch poke. Now it's more balanced overall, the weapon's overall moveset is more usable. With the extra absorption during hyper armor attacks, it got a lot better. But it's still not as good in duels as fast weapons, nor is it as good in invasions as sorceries or incantations.
I think there are just too many things in this game for them to correctly balance anything. Too many things to keep straight. Too many weapons and spells and modifiers. Everything has to be considered in terms of all the other things it can be combined with. Jump attacks have to be considered in light of the claw talisman (or had to be, before its gigantic nerf lol). Everything has to be considered in light of the wide variety of buffs that can go crazy. In invasions, dragon breath and giantsflame incantations are insane, easily one-shotting overleveled phantoms at high arcane/faith levels. But if they were nerfed, they'd be useless for more normal builds. How do you balance RL125 without imbalancing RL200 or RL400? It's just a lot, the game is too big to be balanced by such a small team. And there's no incentive for them to hire more and put more heads on this project, as they've already cashed out on it. Finally balancing Elden Ring PvP is not going to make them any more money, they already got your money, and it's not like they're gonna sell a "Shadow of the Fixed PvP" DLC for $15, but even if they did, it would probably still be broken, since they're just not capable of fixing one thing without breaking another.
Btw I will say colossals are much better in invasions than in duels, they are definitely usable, so you can certainly win lots of invasions with a strength build. It may not be the best thing you can do, but there are some really strong ashes of war that you can only use on colossals, like waves of darkness or golden land. They're not the best by any means, like bloodboon ritual is still ridiculously strong even after a nerf, and if you use it right, endure + dragon breath is the most broken thing in the game. But strength is still viable, and it doesn't really matter what's the best, all that matters is can you win an invasion with it. So anything that is good for turn-and-burns, knocking people off ledges, stunning and damaging multiple players at once, etc., is gonna be viable. And in invasions, thrusting swords aren't that great. I mean, once you've killed all the phantoms, they're really good for chasing down a running host. So you certainly want one in your repertoire. But they're not good at keeping you alive, which is what matters most. A good invasion build has to have a lot of different tools, and you can certainly do a colossal build that has the right tools.
So I'd think about it in terms of balancing builds, not balancing weapons. The problem is just that duel builds mostly revolve around one or two weapons, there's not a lot of weapon swapping, since duels are a very static encounter compared to invasions, which are very dynamic. And so duels are always going to highlight the imbalances between weapons in a way that invasions don't, since there's no reason to swap weapons, you just build around one thing, maybe two. That's why I just don't play duels anymore, I don't really find it fun even if it was well balanced so you'd see a lot of variety and get to play with whatever you want. I don't like the spirit ash colosseum either, mainly because it's imbalanced, but it's never not gonna be imbalanced, since spirit ashes are part of the PvE progression. If every spirit ash was equally good, there'd be no excitement around getting the mimic tear or the dung eater puppet.
@@ToxicallyMasculinelol very well said,and i know its been 4 months but the problems you mentioned are still a problem
Coming back to this video just to say that it's wild that pre-DLC they nerfed Thrusting Swords slightly to where they weren't nearly as braindead and broken, and then immediately buffed them again (for some reason) after the DLC's release to poise-break everyone
Because Miyazaki wants PvP to involve everyone wearing full Solitude armor while using solely Shamshirs and Cleanrot Knight Swords
Nice Bionicle music at the end. It's been many years, but I'll recognize the Bionicle Heroes soundtrack every time I hear it.
good take about the thrusting swords, i've been thinking that probably from all of them no thrusting sword is bad, sure as you said, cleanrot is probably the strongest one, but even with that the other ones are pretty good options, like; antspur for scarlet rot build up, rapier for a reliable weapon and for fishing/ripostes, rogiers which has an interesting heavy attack, or even the frozen needle which is the weakest and almost the shortest from all of them, it has a projectile that gives 3/4 times its own range with not fp cost, and if you know how to free-aim it is a pretty interesting weapon to play with.
ArcDominuz has a tutorial on the frozen needle, very interesting weapon.
All of the Thrusting Swords are good to great, the cleanrot is just the best though
Finally a video on this, I thought about making one myself but I didn't want to get flamed so I didn't LOL
The thrusting weapons we're gonna get from the dlc are gonna go crazy
Little did he know.. we got A thrusting weapon
this didnt age well
Thrusting swords both hand take less stamina than daggers both hand
I'm not good this weapon yet but now i use this weapon (blood infuse ) to bleed the great dragon lying in Dragon Barrow.
I’m pretty sure I ran into you last night while you where getting footage for this because I recognize the character I also immediately thought “wow 2h cleanrot what a shitter” no hard feelings lol.
What happened in the interaction? 😂
6:18 Thok's theme from Bionicle Heroes 😄
Sigh that takes me back.
That game had such a nice OST.
You are goated knowing that! I use the ost all the time lmao. Two other tracks playing in the back are from Vezoks levels😂
@SgtJager-pq7tt I'm a huge fan of Bionicle. Have been since I was yay high.
Those things have stuck with me for years. Along with the soundtrack from the original 3 films and the Mask of Light Video game ost 😁
Thrusting swords have always been a top-tier weapon for the reasons you laid out in the video. In DS 3 the name of the game was getting quick hit stun to pressure/panic your opponent. With the changes in 1.10 they do the same here. Any weapon that is at the frontier of what can be reaction rolled becomes an insanely deadly threat.
When I started using offstoc in DS 3 it was such a game-changer for me, and it helped me understand the game better than I ever had.
Against an experienced opponent it is a strong weapon but it is a total noob slayer. Noobs just panic roll, and I understand why.
Side note - in DS 3 people often rocked either offstoc or offhand hand axe. The hand axe was sweeping while obviously estoc was thrusting. Hand axe was preferrable on PS4 because at 30 fps, the estoc was more easily strafed. On PC @ 60 fps, the tracking was soooo good, and it made estoc the stronger option.
Speed is king when it comes to the viability of a weapon, especially in 1v1s. I agree 100%
Bro ds3 estoc was such good weapon balance, I wish ers resembled it at least in the tracking department.
Wait your FPS made estoc track better? That's actually crazy.
@@SgtJager00 yes Estoc was so much stronger at 60 fps. I didn’t understand why more ps4 players didn’t use estoc until I started talking to them about it. That’s when we realized how important the frame rate was for tracking.
They are meh in ds3 my guy
@@Dautar748 thrusting swords...meh? In DS 3? They're insanely strong. PK and murky are the only weapons that are stronger imo.
Estoc pairs well with a shield, or you can use the estoc in your offhand and pressure the everliving shit out of your opponent.
Awesome video, I would like to point out that another reason thrusting weapons are overpowered besides what you already mentioned is also due to latency and phantom reach because, meaning that if you encounter someone with a bad connection and a thrusting sword or a heavy thrusting sword will be a nightmare to handle. Fun fact thrusting weapons were an issue for similar reasons in Dark Souls 2 for similar reasons DS2 have the same graphic motor as Elden Ring as far as I am aware.
Graphic motor?
car@@Paddy656
Try fighting gugs on lag nothing is worse
@@Paddy656 Graphic motor? I think Graphic Engine.
Antspur rapier with poison/scarlet rot is one of my go tos in pvp. Good video
Great video bro, hope they still think about bring us balance
Ty broski! Crazy to think that we haven't received a patch in over 7 MONTHS
Glad I'm not the only one who grew up with Bionicle Heroes, man, they probably spent all their budget on the music and it shows
The ost is sooooo good!
People will abuse a bug until it gets fixed, that's just the nature of games these days
honestly the real problem TS have in regards to ER pvp is simply the fact that its start up and recovery is blazing fast compared to anything else but has relatively the same dmg plus counters. imagine TS with around the same speed as a SS and it's suddenly not as oppressive (glitches and bugs aside ofc) this was almost the same problem it had in DS3 where in it was so fast that nothing could compete with even when your animation started before they swung they would still be able to get out due to its quick recovery, this also resulted in a far more grievous problem is that if spammed it caught people at the end of their rolls almost exactly the same way it does in ER. this leads to an absolutely oppressive weapon that it borders on abuse. a 2 frame nerf to its start up and around 2-5 to its recovery would still make it a great catching or initiating weapon but turns it into a hit and run which also lends to its "speedy" playstyle. dropping down to dagger will simply replace daggers thus deleting another weapon class from seeing the light of day.
How did this get recommended to me the moment I start a rapier run..
There's this one guy I run into sometimes who's fully mushroom bodied out with a bhs bleed cleanrot and my goal when fighting them is to beat my previous record of hits landed. Pretty sure my best was 7 hits! I think I've beaten them once, but I guarantee it was a fluke because every subsequent attempt was business as usual.
There's also this other guy who's poise maxed out with a bleed Antspur who shield pokes behind fingerprint but that's a whole other can o worms.
Halberd Offstoc has been one of my favorite set ups since Dark Souls 2.
I'm surprised you can even 2h a thrusting sword at all. Alot of 2h stances look really weird, like you're holding a baseball bat.
I fought you earlier today in the arena and you won. You were using the cleanrot and I was using dual lances and it literally felt like there was nothing I could do. It’s insane how good thrusting swords
If bleed can be in the game as it is, so can off-stok or whatever.
My go to when struggling with a boss is always a thrusting sword because the dmg is pretty good and the speed is insane.
Poke -> dodge -> poke -> dodge
Works every time.
Sure, strength builds are fun, but the amount of punish windows you have with a thrusting sword like the estoc or cleanrot sword is almost always twice or thrice as much as something like a great or colossal sword/weapon.
It's also great for status effects like bleed because during bigger openings you can get 2 or 3 hits in.
Elden Ring being historically accurate
As someone who has never played elden ring pvp, I agree with you
I simply don't get the decision behind the ghost hitbox. And this applies to all weapons. Why can't the hitbox be... just the actual size of the weapon? If it's a big mallet, then let the hitbox be a big a** cube. If it's a tiny toothpick, let it be thin and narrow, easily staifable. You know, just do things that make sense.
"but but players can't face the thing they wanna kill" - fromsoft
The early ash of war cancel also happens with raptors of the mist and unlike bhs and quickstep this means it can reliably escape frame traps with zero end lag.
That's why for tournament and ladder matches cleanrot is not allowed in main hand and estoc ,cleanrot ,Nobel thrusting swords and not allowed in offhand🙏
I really like this video. Also you have a good voice. Definitely staying tuned 😅
Ty bro!
The funniest thing is I started use cleanrot sword because it weapon looks beautiful, didn't expect that could be sort of meta weapon :D
Antspur rapier with bloodhound step can be a real pest for your foes.
It’s funny that people looked to ER’s ash system to give other weapons a shot but now what we have is a longer range, higher damage murky with counter damage lol
On my arc/dex character the estoc slightly outdoes the cleanrot sword's damage on a bleed infusion, though thats the only time I've seen that happen.
I think one way to balance out thrusting swords would be by massively speeding up the animation for the Moonveil L2. It would make thrusting swords more reasonable and give Moonveil a much needed buff. Win win, really.
They need to give Moghs ash of war superarmor too
Great video, I was just thinking about this bc I meet so many players in the arena that will wield offstoc or 2h thrusting swords and I have no idea how to counter it (it's oppressive af mald inducing honestly, or a skill issue). Here's to hoping they get fixed/nerfed in the near future, meanwhile I was wondering what would you say is a good (temporary) counter to this kind of playstyle/setup?
There are no real counters to 2h ts, the main counter to offstoc is 108 poise and HA
The only thing i can think of is sleep and madness phantom hits. Even then i dont even think it’ll work if the other guy is really good. Plus the thrusting sword guy can just use his own sleep buffs.
Shamshir with sword dance is your best bet, but TS doesn't have a single losing matchup
I recently got into pvp after beating the game a few times, felt like i had enough skill and was invaded enough times to know how to handle anything. I actually have a pretty good record of id say winning about 60-70% of all my matches. However, i think out of about 15 or so matches against a thrusting sword ive only beaten one or two. They’re ridiculous and i know thrusting in general is great which is why i use a piercing fang ash of war but when its the entire moveset it just gets insane. Thanks for the info glad im not alone
If you like the estoc, try the great epée. It's slower, but its reach is ridiculous. You have to enter other weapon classes to outreach it.
heavy thrusting sword is a different weapon class my guy
@@Wacck I know. I didn't say it's the same weapon class as the estoc.
@@ETBrooD oh ok
Edit: offstoc bug is in the game for like the 7th month now. It is kinda absurd lol
TS is borked due to the offhand glitch : |. It can be really dumb in invasions. HTS can also be a meme at times
Ty pvp team, a patch a year is so amazing
@@SgtJager00 I know right, it is as if they WANT this game to be perceived as PVE only lol. Balance in shambles, bugs everywhere... meh I lost hope when that last small patch came out on PC... it felt like an actual slap to the face
On same grounds why no one questions psss as bugged, like offstock the psss dose same poise damage on all hits and that too more than 133,they can keep mashing without a worry in the world 🙏
Thrusting swords working in Elden Ring the same level of frustrating they work in real life HEMA/Fencing.
thrusting swords have always been a bit of a nightmare to balance in souls titles, it's either damage output, being able to poise through attacks to out trade the other person or simply being able to break someone elses poise, this is kinda the reason why you see lionel with thrusting swords as it is a call back to old builds of how people used to wear heavy armor with a thrusting sword as to be able to continue thrusting without getting their poise broken, this is also why one of the most infamous regular enemies in the game are thrusting swords enemies with unexplicably high poise namely the page guy, the weird thing is that you can't really replicate this in pve which makes the thrusting swords kinda meh in pve, but you can sort of abuse this in pvp.
Some of the hitboxes in this game are just straight busted
How times have changed.
Darksouls- R1 R1 R1 R1
Elden ring- L1 L1 L1 L1
Thrust attacks have been meta since ds2 ~
I main hand a zweihander
And offhand a estoc
Idk about how good that is in the meta
But it definitely feels almost busted
Trade
Then thrust
And the poise changes means if you challenge it
Youll just get poked repeatedly
But if they back off they live off the trade
I remember running dual estocs with quick step and the pressure was insane
The only ppl that could escape was those who light rolled backwards
Anything else
And I was just glued to you
Genuinely no escape
@B5afe yeah
If ppl think pvp is bad because of greatspears
They havent been bum rushed by 2 estocs with quickstep
That shit is inescapable
You should dragon halberd pvers NOW :LtgShmeky:
They can't be countered really under any circumstances, players magically run 3x faster with them it seems, the damage doesn't stop and they do like 1000 dmg a hit. There's no way around saying they need to be greatly nerfed.
Elden Ring in general is a balance nightmare since launch and proly always will be. 😢
Not only are they cracked but they’re very very very hard to parry even with the broken parry ashes compared to similarly fast and spammable r1s like psss and claws running r1 I’ve almost never been parried or parried consistently when running cleanrot
Hope pvp will pick up w dlc!
Started playing again. Academy courtyard is even silent these days. lvl 60. I’m on Xbox.
A one-handed thrusting sword on your left hand does like 109 poise 😂
As someone that just spent three hours inflicting 4 statuses on poor souls in the arena. I agree its broken. But oh so so fun 😂
2h ts r1 has 3 frames of recovery before you can roll out.
Ha try Roger’s rapier. Thang slaps
I remember the first time I tried cleanrot after being used to antspur. I instantly found my fav weapon lol they ain’t as good as this guy says tho. They def have counters and certain setups they don’t do well again
this is one of the issues with having both pve and pvp in a game like this, they're pretty mid in pve but overpowered in pvp so if you nerf it for pvp the pve side suffers for no reason
I know they separated pve and pvp nerfs for some things in elden ring but nerfs to tracking and speed would most likely be applied to both
so in PvE shields all but make the thrusting weapons useless...wouldn't that be the same in PvP?
Gotta love the poise changes nobody but ds3 sweats asked for ruining the fun/balance of the game
Nah
git gud poise abuser
From a point of outsider who barely started the game, ER pvp seems like a buggy and laggy mess which will never be balanced. Maybe its time to wipe the slate clean and not allow anything bigger than a dagger as your off hand?
These are good changes but only when they are considered in a vacuum. I would rather thrusting swords be stupid and good-looking, while setups like sleep halberd, bleed starfist, and paired spears are even dumber and extremely ugly and take absolutely no skill. I think the same thing about the shamshir (though that sword in particular is really ugly). It should not be nerfed while those other setups exist.
All you need to do
Is out damage them.
Trades ftw
you are right
Thrusting attacks in general are totally broken in this game.
I have a thrusting sword.
great stuff bro! time to go poke sum noobs >:)
I've always found it frustrating that the models don't match the hitboxes. Remember PKCS? Probably. It had insane ghost range. Remember the storm curved sword? Probably not. Visually it was very long, but the hotboxes disagree. So unintuitive!
nerf them into the ground.
reduce tracking
increase recovery
slow the chain so you cant just spam r1
reduce the forward momentum so it dosent go 20 fucking feet
and reduce horizontal hitbox
Everytime I saw ts I thought it was this shit and will only look at it this was
same old song again
Elden Ring is balanced towards PvE, not PvP (despite all the patches updated in). PvP isn't meant to be competitive and never will be (Colosseum was meant to humor us). I don't participate in duels because of all this.
That being said, I often Co-op and invade, usually between level 52-125, where damage, builds, and playstyles are at their best and most fun (for me). I don't have to care about balance if the game itself encourages me not to.
However, I found overall balance at its best with Dark Souls 3. You couldn't slap on an ash of war on any weapon, thrusting weapons are less viable (especially Shield poke), plus boss fights didn't boil down to two things; hit and run, or spam a ranged AoW.
I mean, showcasing this is all well and good. But ultimately any "souls" game has always been primarily designed for PvE. The PvP aspect is secondary, and even the concept of an invasion is meant to be akin to a powerful PvE mini boss (Miyazaki's own words there).
So I can understand the frustration in a purely "competitive" pvp environment. However, Elden ring and past souls games are NOT competitive.
The only exception here is that From Soft has done great work in implementing PvP versions of the PvE mechanics. So perhaps the solution is to fix the thrusting swords when the PvP flag is toggled on. Apart from that, I have no issue with a thrusting sword doing what it currently does when I am just playing through the game normally.
People i preach to you out of love. come to the lord Jesus christ who died for our sins, all have sinned and will perish but christ came so that who ever belives in him would not perish but have eternal life. (john 3:16-18) Christ is the only way to salvation you must humble yourself, confess you sins and repent and live according to christ you are never far gone please dont reject christ but make him your lord and trust in his work on the cross he died because he loves you and we are saved by gods grace bt our faith in christ please read these words and seek the words of the bible Jesus loves you
Found the faith build
I'll follow Jesus if ts get nerfed enough.
With so many cheese options in the game, thrusting swords are the last thing that need changed 😂.. just because a skilled player can be godly in pvp (only) doesn't need they need to "fix" or change the weapons.
Thrusting swords are NOT op if you use them honestly, ie not only two hand r1 spamming with BHS, tumble damage buffing and infused with rot, and when duel welding them they are actually severely underpowered, especially after patch 1.08. They have bad stun, bad hyper armour, terrible range, and could do more damage, especially charged attacks
I think you're just salty that there's a high skill weapon out there that punishes your weak reflexes lil bro
Thrusting swords do not take high skill.
@@spacedoohicky who hurt you?
Protecting the illusion of skill turns to life threatning mission in youtube comments (REAL)
@@___.51 I don't know what that means. But I switched to thrusting swords for duels for a while some time ago. I had never used them for that, but right away I was winning most matches. Sometimes I was winning against players that I thought were better than me. I stopped using thrusting swords in duels.
@@spacedoohicky wow that happened for sure
On behalf of probably 85% of players... go pound sand dude.
Asking for nerfs.....gd narc