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Let's Build Another Stratocaster, Highline Guitars Is 100% Wrong!
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- Опубліковано 12 сер 2024
- The other day Chris at Highline Guitars was razzing me about how ancient my beloved pin router is and how it belongs in a museum. We have a ton of respect for Chris and love his guitars but I will go to my grave thinking that the pin router is the most sexy and versatile tools in the guitar shop.
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Texas Toast Guitars is an independent guitar shop and this channel is a place for people with common interests to come together and discuss their mutual hobbies, toys, and opinions. All are welcome.
Original score: Electric Boogie Dawgs & The Born Readies
Artwork: Paul Shellooe
DISCLAIMER: Our videos are strictly for documentary, educational, and entertainment purposes only. Imitation or the use of any acts depicted in these videos is solely AT YOUR OWN RISK. All work with power tools should be carried out by trained users.
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Remember, we are showing you what we do, not how to do it. If you do not possess the necessary skills to perform work at this level, do not attempt to replicate what you see here. If you're going to be dumb, you have to be TOUGH.
Wood knows when it's been cut on a CNC machine, and it lets all the tone leak out. To make good sounding guitars, you have to use tone chisels. Chisels made from forged billets produce better sounding guitars that chisels made entirely by stock removal. A grey beard and wireframe glasses can compensate, though. Unless they're stainless steel. You'd need to be barefoot and outdoors to make up for the tone loss caused by stainless chisels!
Absolutely!!! Finally someone talking with a good scientifical foundation.
Also the same reason you have to use genuine fender vintage pots. The cheap pots you get online have micro holes all over the casing that slowly let's the electrons leak out over time.
That’s great. Being left handed, when G&L was making guitars like this, they would build me anything! The guys in the shop were so cool. Ever since new management went to CNC machines years back, when a new model comes out, l’m told if I want one, I have to pay 3 to 4 k to get one from the custom shop. I guess no one wants to pay to have the CNC programmed for a lefty. Keep your hand in still making guitars this way, enjoyed seeing the process.
Pin router should be in a museum....The Museum of Awesomeness!!!!!
The only advantage in production that a CNC gives you, if that you can do other stuff while it is working. But, for speed, the old school method is faster. Setup takes a lot longer with a CNC. Now, if you step into the world of large factory CNC's. That is a different story as for speed, but these are for production factories, that will be running the same body or couple body shapes all the time. In the end, I love my pin router, and will continue to use it for years to come.
Pin router is fast with simple forms but CNC is much more capable with complex forms. I mean things like a compound radius fingerboard, blind fret slots, compensated nuts, carved tops, self centering/locking neck joints (Tom Anderson)... CNC can deliver unrivaled accuracy when making things like those. I really like a good chisel, but I also like CNC a lot. If you don’t want to have tons of machinery, one CNC can do a lot.
With all the tools and experience you have you should keep building body's by hand, BUT you can and should make cool new designed templates with the CNC!
Awesome video Matt, thanks. I started building guitars when lockdown started last year and I'm just about to start my 4th build. You guys have been an a priceless resource
I purchased a cnc 5 yrs ago and have yet to cut anything but a tele body, I
am not a computer programmer and found it was actually keeping me from building guitars. As I
have a pin router, I am able to build a guitar body in a fraction of the time all but more expensive cnc's can, and with yrs of making and perfecting my jigs, I have the same results with my necks. Not knocking anyone who builds with one, I tried, just not for me.
I don't have a CNC machine, *or* a pin router! If I had to choose between the two, *and* they were the same cost, I'd go with the pin router. I'm a Printed Circuit Board designer for a living so I'm always in front of a computer designing things using a CAD program that creates files that feed machines that make things. Building guitars is my way to escape from all that. I looked into going with the cheapest CNC system, even bought Rhino. Even if I eventually got everything up and running, having tried to figure out Rhino, by the time I was able to be productive with Rhino I'd have built three through-neck guitars, (even more difficult to learn than Allegro). A pin router is the apex of technology shy of involving machine code, so it makes the job a lot easier, but without having to learn yet another CAD tool or be concerned with file formats, machine/OS compatibility and all the other craziness. That said, if I were making guitars for a living, and I calculated that I'd eventually be more productive with a CNC machine, I'd get a CNC machine. But at this point I can't afford either, but that's okay, I'm doing fine right now with my router table and Triton router.
Great tip for matching neck pocket edge to the neck!
Glad it was helpful!
Yeah I’m using this tip this week!
The pin router was the main tool at Charvel/Jackson in 1985.
Pin router is basically an inverted router is what I am seeing. Nice, but not needed with a hand router and router table. The CNC is great but it takes time to setup the cut and do the design. In your case you have templates that you can use for that parts, so likely quicker to do it using them.
Appropriate use of technology.
Once I took a tour of a ukulele factory in Hawaii. When we got to where necks were shaped the owner talked about how CNC was great for creating repeatability but said the wood removal was slow. “I can carve them faster by hand, but they are not as uniform.” Your pin router gives you both speed and uniformity. Can you imagine trying to make the hand fit neck pocket you demonstrated with a CNC? A lengthy process to revise code verify tool path etc…. You are wise.
Great video!
Thanks Keith
A thought occurred while watching you rout this custom Strat-type body... why not put a 24.75 scale neck on Fender-style bodies? A lot of people with smaller or maybe arthritic hands would appreciate that option I think. One of the reasons I prefer Les Paul style single-cut guitars besides the trad body shape is the shorter scale length. Not always a problem but for some things a shorter scale is easier or more fun to play. Now don't get me all wrong, I have a Tele and love it but to me a Tele- or Strat-style body with a 24.75 scale neck would be fantastic and I think you could still get 21 or 22 frets on it by subtle adjustments in pickup and bridge location and the neck joint. I have a Squier Mustang with a 24" scale I bought cheap at the pawn and it's easy to really fly around the middle and bottom of the neck and stretch into some new chord voicings. Oh well, any thoughts on this?
Definitely made short work for a custom body. A lot of neat features in that one.
Paul Reed Smith still uses pin routers in their rework department. Because they're so much faster to set up for one off jobs. Pin routers are by far, still the best of time for very short production runs requiring multiple machine set-ups and break-downs.
A high quality CNC router is great for for highly accurate precision like your inlay work, and for large production runs using moderately skilled operators as employees instead of highly paid skilled artisans of the trade.
Chris has a bit of confirmation bias going there at Highline about production CNC work with small shop custom guitars :-)
The more you do it the better you get
It's probably just me but that 'pssst' sound as the cutter changes depth is really cool.
It's me too brotherman
I feel the best way with a CNC is the gray area. I've played phenomenal guitars cut with CNC and handmade with original tools and luthiership. Routing out pick up/electrical cavities with a CNC is one thing but the body cut and touch-up with old methods outside of that matters a lot. 100% one way or another will only give two types of results.
Totally agree!
You can also use a pin with a truncated conical shape ground on it. The height it sits above the table will dictate the offset to the cutter. Fantastic fun. The one I used to use was a massive Wadkin. The head was brought down by a bar attached to a footplate with a mechanical lockdown. It also had a mechanical brake on the spindle which was just a pad against a cam (basically). I had one time when I had a 2" cutter in the head, and it slowly started dropping down in the collet (coming loose!). I had to switch off immediately and work out whether it was less risky to let it wind down, or to use the brake. Tense moment!
I should get one
I've had an ash body explode out of my hand using a pin router. Scary close call. IMO you can't beat heavy iron. Nice job.
agree mate i see a use for the CNC and all of the old school methods, horses for courses so to speak. Overhead/pin router is a one trick pony but honestly it can do a lot of things faster than a CNC if you use it correctly.
For one off things it sure does
I appreciate that your customer wanted to avoid the swimming pool route and that you were able to find a creative solution to give him what he wanted. Well done!
Thanks for watching
Hard to beat the shaper for speed, the CNC would be making pass after pass after pass...
The shaper is a monster tool
Keep fingers outta there
True, but it’s also less accurate, more dangerous and a lot more cumbersome when you’re dealing with one-offs or more complex shapes.
I use a 2" bearing bit to carve the rough shape of rhe body. I cut it close and then run it past the router. That has its draw backs at times. Do you usually make the neck first and then fit it to the body? Thats what I find is the easiest. I dont completely finish the neck just because sometimes neck angle needs to be adjusted a tad. I do find it easier and easier to figure it out the more I make though. Appreciate you sharing this with us
I'd love a pin router, but I wouldn't mind having a CNC router either. And what you guys have the CNC for is basically what I would want one for - inlay work and fretboard layout (precision slotting for any scale length, including multiscale). Well, and also template creation.
it's not a bad idea to have them all
that massive router bit thing is the scariest thing Ive ever seen. neat
Pin Router totally wins this fight. Just the setup alone on a CNC would take longer than your routing job.
HAHAHA Thanks Michael
So true!
Until you need to do a carved top...
Also depends on what you define as setup. Setting up your files? Yeah it takes longer. But if you count making your templates as setup then it takes longer.
Actual cutting would likely be quicker for one guitar on a CNC. If you're doing several I could see it being quicker with a band saw and pin router.
Other jobs like a fret board, are definetly quicker with Matt's tools and jigs. But that's a lot of specialized tools and jigs that add up costs in a hurry.
That being said, I love a good pin router as much as the next guy. It's a really cool tool. I mostly use a CNC machine extensively because it's the cheapest and most accurate way I have to build guitars. I mostly just want all of us to appreciate kickass custom guitars whether they're made on a CNC, a pin router, or completely by hand.
Since I’ve made this comment I’ve done both. I am finally over the learning curve on the CNC which is great. I’ve done things as complex as a SG body using a template and router and then carving the bevels by hand, and it was neither slow nor difficult nor inaccurate. But unless i’m buying the CNC SG body program, I sure wouldn’t want to try to program in those bevels. This is why they are great for factories and great for detail carving but no necessarily practical for someone like me who builds one guitar at a time
@@michaelmenkes8085 Yeah, I taught myself CAD starting when I was 14 and am currently studying aerospace engineering where I do a fair amount of it. So it's a bit different for me. I could model the bevels for an SG in about 30 minutes. Carved tops are a trickier but still doing it. Recently I've been perfecting a technique to model necks efficiently. I've got to the point where I can model a neck of about any scale length and neck profile in a few hours.
In terms of accuracy, I have a tendency (and I think many engineers do too) to over fixate on precision. In reality, for an electric guitar body, a few thousandths will make 0 difference. But we'll jump through a lot of hoops to eliminate them anyway.
You're right, it was worth the price of admission. Thanks!
The advantage of CNC is while the machine doing the work, you can be doing something else. Wile your sleeping at night it could be working. The disadvantage is making the files. This can take a ton of time.
That is what people say, however, if the operator sits and watches the machine work (which is what Chris and I do) it is hardly a huge time saver
No.....Do Not sleep while your machine is running!! Many a house and workshop has burned down ...If the work comes loose the bit will rub against it and all that sawdust will set fire Look into it! Do not do this anyone Look up the videos under CNC Fire
Or if its a Belt driven machine and a belt decides to break the same as....May Chinese machines have grounding issues that can send the gantry off into left field too Bad idea I can't advise against this enough Been around CNC for almost 20 years
CNC is great for inlays and that’s a good idea . I love working the guitars with my hands and using the old school machines
I do all my guitars with a router table I built with 1x12 pine and a harbor freight router. There's something about doing it that way that is satisfying to me.
That's cool
While cycling are great, there's something really satisfying doing it the old school way
Yup! From the beginning I've routed the body to the shape of the neck once the neck is in. It creates the illusion of perfect planning. ;)
Right on!
oh, the templates on the bottom... I was really confused how you seemed to just be free handing it and nailing the shape.
HAHAHA
I mean I'm good but not that good ;)
The gateway drug to CNC is when you start making custom templates instead of stacking existing templates. Then you'll try a body on the CNC because it's like a super thick template and then realize you can have the CNC cut you a body -- while you are making a neck. A guitar building assistant.
I guess we will see what we will see
bacchus and momose guitars are one of the highest end guitar brands in japan and all their Japan made stuff is jigs and pin routers and their work is fender custom shop quality. cnc MAYBE more precise and consistent but its not much faster or cheaper unless you have a production line of same model. on the other hand, to each is their own so rock on guys!
Maybe more precise is right
The only pin router I ever had any experience with was an overhead pin router. (reversed from yours, pin on top, router on the bottom). Would love to have one now
I've never had the chance to try an inverted pin router
@@TexasToastGuitars Much older than yours, and I was working for a cabinet shop in Knoxville that catered to salon furniture, and frame building for furniture manufacturers. You manually cranked down the spindle, and the pin on bottom followed your template/pattern. (about 50 years ago)
I have a feeling this relates to a HG video I watched the other day. Pin routers, CNC machines, etc, they're are all just tools and which is better essentially depends on what you're doing. To each their own.
More than 30 years, I've done various jobs/projects involving metals, woods, and plastics using all kinds of tools, including CNC machining. Personally, if it were me and I were making classic Fender-shaped-objects, as an example, I'd almost certainly go with a pin router. For the shapes like or similar to what Chris at HG makes--carved tops and set necks--I'd probably go with CNC.
Oh the doubters - Matt I've only been subscribed to this channel for a little over a year and I knew your beloved pin router wasn't going anywhere, cheers from Canada eh
Correct! Well worth the price of admission! Pin Routers RULE!
You know I love them
There's no better or worse in using either classic tools oder CNC - all that matters is the skills and the affection of the luthier to building the best instrument he possibly can.
Hahaha! Chris makes some really nice stuff with that new-fangled machinery, but the pin router rulez!
amazing, thanks for your awesome videos. Cheers from Toronto.
Man the pin router seems so much faster and more enjoyable than a Cnc.
I think so
DEFINITELY worth the Price of Admission!
Thanks Matt & Chris, I always look forward to your videos and feel I have learned a tremendous amount from your channel.
I appreciate that Steve
I think the pin router and the operator make great looking guitar bodies. Artisan and craftsmanship make guitar building more rewarding to me. Besides, I can’t afford a CNC machine. Great video.
CNC is totally overrated my friend
Hi, Nice video you got there. Im about too get a pin router for guitar building myself. Can I may ask what router bits you will recommend for this? Im gonna use it for trussrod slots aswell.
We don't discriminate when it comes to router bits, get something good and change it out regularly
How long would you say from blank to body using the pin router?
cnc, is that short for Off the Rack?
Hot pin router action! What was that modified double cut outline?
Do you ever have a problem with the guide bearing on your shaper cutter wearing depressions in your template where you start the cut? I've had that problem before. The heavy bearing has so much momentum that it is difficult for the template to stop it from spinning.
Never mind, I see where you did the final cut on your pin router. That's a good solution!
I’m currently saving up for a CnC. But let me say this...even though I own a jointer and planer doesn’t mean I stopped using my block and hand planes.
With all that being said, Texas toast and high line guitars are the top two guitar building channels on UA-cam IMO, and I’m very grateful for how you guys enrich the world with your knowledge and expertise.
We like Chris at Highline guitars
@@TexasToastGuitars ohh I totally understood that, was just giving both companies praise. You all rock!
“CNC Got Nothin On Me”..... it’s my new song.
Being a software engineer, I have nothing against CNC but every tool has its place. I would think if you're doing small runs and you are set up with all your templates, the pin router is probably more efficient use of your time. If you drop a couple hundred K on a big CNC router that can do automatic tool changes and hog through a body in 5 min, then you probably don't need a pin router! If I had to guess, most of your time is spent finishing, assembling and doing fret work anyway.
The pin router is still sexier
@@TexasToastGuitars Absolutely sexier! My uncle "3 Finger Franky" always said so!
the cnc is great for making exact templates that can be used faster on the pin router..and of course the CNC can run in the background as you are doing other things..the cnc can do everything that a pin router can do as well as 3d shaping..but in a custom shop..the time that it takes to program the cnc to do a job can take more time than doing the job manually..for production it is invaluable..but then you will never be able to compete with Gibson for example that build such a huge number of guitars that they get discounts on material and such..in the modern world it is not so much the material costs, but the tax (and related acounting costs), logistic, marketing, and manpower costs that take up a huge share of the costs of producing an item..sales price less costs equals profits. Also a cnc can do all of the things that one needs for all of the shapers, routers, planers,etc used in this shop..if you want to pay the rent for a large shop to hold all of these machines, then no problem, but if you want to save a thousand every month using your garage instead..then maybe a cnc is the better option..a thousand a month adds up...and then, what is the price of a good tooling bit for the shaper?..better find out before buying one.
The chips flying out of the shaper was very satisfying. I think I need one in my shop now. Router table now not my favorite tool.
I really love the shaper, there is no way a router table could do all the things it can do. It is the one tool that I won't let other people use... not because it's so special to me but because it can get sideways really quick.
I hope you get one and enjoy it as much as I do.
Either CNC or old school both processes work its the quality over all that matters
I love watching shaper in action!
I might buy myself one and start doing PRS copies
By the way how I can find those red handles. I fired up my old planer thicknesser and would like to save my fingers
I think you can easily source them on like Amazon even
I agree with you, Pin Router is a class act.
BTW, I noticed a pic of Dan, from Guns and Guitars. I like his channel also, he's good people and even better, a Follower of Christ! You keep good company Sir.
Dan is a cool guy, a good man and great father. We spent the day with him and his family last summer and we hope to see them again soon.
I've only just got my first hand planes this year, that's how far behind I am lol.
You can do it
You’re lucky to still have pin routers available in America. We don’t find them anymore in France. I don’t even know what is the french word for it.
Comme d'habitude en Français, c'est pas simple c'est une "défonceuse sur table avec pion de copie"
Verrrry cool. Certainly worth the price of admission.
HAHAHA
That’s much faster than a CNC too.
Love the router tip. Just curious how much does the finished body weigh?
The Museum of the arcane is on Texas Toast shop
It's a regular vacation destination
Not to mention a pin router requires skill not a Vector file. CNC doesn't save you from a faulty Zero setting or measurement either. Nice to see somebody work with their hands.
Ideally, you have an operator who has some experience using each tool
@@TexasToastGuitars Agreed, but there is still something to be said for hand made. Craftsmanship is a dissappearing part of a lot of things.
It appears that this is not your first time doing this. Beautiful.
I think CNC is over rated. Thanks for all of your awesome videos. Very helpful.
Oh crap, there's my "duh" moment for the week! Have had that same issue with a neck pocket or two. Hats off to the guy you got the trick from!
Sometimes you have those "Why didn't I think of that" moments and that was certainly one of them
Try that with a cnc!
Hell Yeah, I love my cnc, my pin router, and my handheld routers. All are great.
Right on!
"This is worth the price of admission, right here", it certainly is, I think I'll be using that trick!
You should my friend it works great
You should make a custom fretboard that says "GET INLAID".
Don't bother wallowing in the mud; just keep making good, content-based stuff. Love your channel.
The pin router is WAY faster than the CNC. Everyone who uses CNC shows them running in a sped up video.
Another exceptional video ... btw ... you guys ever finish the resto-mod?
Chris has so much going on, working on the resto-mod is one of those projects that is on the back burner
Oh, man... At first, I didn't realize you had the template on the bottom and I was like, "How the actual #%&@ can anyone free-hand that so perfectly?"
custom fretboard inlay of the beloved pin router for Highline for Crimin present 😂
DO IT! 🤣
Great vids as usual Matt, I would love to take advantage of your custom inlay service but I’m in Europe... ☹️
Maybe one day!
You are an artist for certain. I am bringing my tent down there and camping out at your shop forever. Or until the police relocate me. He he. Great work.
I'd LOVE to have either of those pin routers! Just more than I can afford at my level. For now. :D
I could watch the Beloved Pin Router in action all day 🥰
Love the old school way !! CNC machines are cool to watch but I'd rather get my hands on my work !! CNC's kinda seem like they take the fun & personal touch (artistry/craftsmanship) out of making whatever it is you are doing !! You guys just keep doing what you do !! We love ya & all you do , just the way you do it !!
Thanks Mike
If you are going to build old school guitars, you got to use old school tools
How is there a personal touch when you're using a template anyway? What is the difference between a template and a CNC program? I understand wanting to enjoy the process of doing it yourself, but the personal touch thing is hogwash unless you never use a template.
No way CNC is faster than that shaper!
Not a chance
The irony is that using the pin router is probably faster than using the CNC
It is absolutely faster than some CNC machines
If you want to give Highline guitars a good dig just begin every sentence with "however".
Who?
@@TexasToastGuitars LOL
Matt, what make and modal pin router is that?
It is a Jet pin router
Nice to finally see a respirator lol . gotta keep those lungs clean man .
CNC machines changes it from “hand crafted guitars” to become “hand assembled guitars”. Plus it takes ages for them to cut. I think the pin router cuts faster. Further to this, with a CNC you aren’t a guitar maker, you’re more a CNC programmer. True you can design in CAD for both styles of making but the skill is transferred to operating a computer more than operating tools. Just my two bits for what it’s worth. My apologies to CNC guitar builders.
This idea will make you some friends and enemies... ask me how I know HAHAHA
I have started to say that my pin router is sexier
Same hands, different tools and different brains => same shaped piece of wood. I don’t care if a luthier uses a bandsaw, rasp, chisels and sanding block or a CNC machine. The important thing is the end product. Does it function? Intonation, stay in tune, sustain, etc. Does it feel good? Especially important for the neck IMHO. Is it beautiful? Totally subjective and we all have our own opinions, but the production method is irrelevant to beauty of the end product. Unless you’re a troglodyte.
Love it Matt 🤙
That grain looks killer too man!
I know, you dig it the most baby
Abso-freakin-lutely!!!!! 🤣🤙
You should use your CNC machine to make templates for your pin router.
We certainly could do that
^this. Lower investment (time) repeatability for stuff you might expect to do a few more times. Maintain speed of using shaper and pin router
Love the logic and versatility of a pin router.
Yep, old school rules!
I think so too
Great video. I love that pin router.
Me too my friend
No reason not to have both if you have the shop space and can make good use of their individual strengths. Oh...
This is why I respect the hell out of you guys. I know people are going to give me shit for saying this, but is a guitar really a ‘hand crafted’ guitar if the main part of the build is done on a CNC machine? I really like Highline guitars because he has a lot of good info on his channel so I certainly hope he was just pulling your chain.
How is it any more "hand crafted" when using a PIN ROUTER? You're still using a template and a power tool.
Highline Guitars Chris was very insulting to me too! He wrote a bunch of comments calling me illiterate ,Stupid, Dumb and a few others , I screenshot everything. His posts might be informative but if you really look into them carefully you will realise that they are geared toward everybody being Stupid and Dumb but him! The wood tapping "Stop doing this" post is a prime example. He also claims if you have a xcarve you can throw all of your workshop bandsaws away? Like to know how he would rip a10" upright piece of wood down? Inventables even payed him to say this rubbish Its ridiculous actually... Kudos for this guy here calling him out ! Much respect
The pin router is 100 times faster than the CNC, it takes forever to out a body on the CNC then you still have to clean up all the tooling marks. I think CNC is an awesome tool no doubt and has it's place but I love building guitars why would I let my computer have all the fun?
Well... there are CNC machines and then there are CNC machines
Chris Monk's CNC would still be hacking away at a Strat body! Ha! The neck pocket trim with the neck in the pocket... Awesome!
I love ol' Banjo (The Jet)
Nice work, Matt. Love me some pin router.
Great video, thanks for posting. New subscriber😎
Awesome, thank you Randy
Strange how no one rags Ben at Crimson for having a CNC router, even though they use it for a lot of their products!
I'll rag on him HAHAHA
Actually, Ben once told me that he had a pin router for a while and it terrified him. I think those were the words he used?
I could tease him about that