Wish I had seen these at the beginning of my crisis! I think this is something that you need to point people to every do often! Because there’s so much golden info in this! Thank you so much!! I don’t live in Utah or Idaho at this time so I’m not thrown into this running into people from the church and have to engage and they aren’t like Utah or Idaho anyways.. they pretty much leave you alone so I’m not threatened in any way.. but love the role plays and the way you go about setting boundaries..
I am glad you mentioned compassion being a valid reason to not disclose. I have a grandma who I have intentionally not disclosed to because there is no point in putting her through the trauma of thinking I will now be torn from her heavenly existence when she is likely going to pass on soon. There is also no point in convincing someone who spent 90 years following the church, that it was all a lie right before she dies. At that point, it is almost selfish of me to put her through that. She is so excited to go to the celestial kingdom. She believes it 100% and she talks about how excited she is to go through that process. I just nod and smile because at this point, ignorance is bliss for her. It is not worth tearing her from that fairy tale. For my parents and siblings it is different because we still have a lot of life to live together and things can be salvaged, but some people it is actually better if they continue to believe that you are active.
I joined tiktok, in part to vent my own frustrations with other exmos who have similar hurts, but also in part to spread awareness and share my experiences which tends to not quite align with other people's experiences so others that might hear me won't feel alone, and it can be helpful for them
I think your insightful knowledge is applicable to multiple denominational churches! Although I identify as a Roman Catholic due to my upbringing but your content speaks to me. I have a grown daughter who has her PhD (Philosophy/Psychology), she is LBGT+, teaches for Goddard University, teaches in a local Community College and is in a non-profit counseling practice with her partner. She resides in Emerald Isle, NC. I sent her the link to your podcast because I thought she & her partner would benefit listening to Natasha’s trial.Thank you for being such loving people and so real!
LOVE the role playing, and seeing the various styles. I'm a John-style, and a people pleaser/over explainer; but I can also see how Margi can end things faster with her more direct approach. Making, and enforcing, boundaries is one of my most difficult challenges, still. Thanks for these podcasts!
When you say things like, "Everything is fine" or "It's just a timing issue," I personally would not be able to get those words to come out of my mouth. It would be lying. Timing has nothing to do with the truth claims of the church being false. I'm scrupulously honest, so I'm wondering how you can be honest and authentic while talking to members who keep pressing.
I loved the role playing!! Gave me great ideas for engaging with those trying to pry!!! Love everything you guys do 😍 Thank you for all you do in this channel to help us with our new courses in life ❤️
Your reciprocal role plays were awesome. I love how Margie says she wants the persistent nosy ward member “to feel my boundary!” Repeating and redirecting is easiest and will soon exhaust the aggressive person!
When Margie (sp?) was doing the roleplay and said, "Be Careful" I burst out laughing. It was so funny because that really happens! I also loved John's response to the person at the grocery store. ❤️
I stopped believing and started disagreeing with what was said at church when I was RS 2nd counselor. 1:08:00 hr mark is what I experienced. After I told the Bishop I didn’t believe and to release me from my calling I was happy and I was able to sleep and felt peace.
Love the comparison of The Giving Tree. I'm definitely not one, I've usually put myself first in most things in my life (I'm not a mother yet but I know that's a huge thing with motherhood). My mom was a giving tree for most of her life and it's taken a long time for her to start learning to stand up for herself and be selfish every once in awhile. My stepmom is a giving tree as well, and I know many other women in the church who are like that.
I told my wife a month ago that I didnt believe the truth claims of the church and she told me she wished we had never met and that I am being spiritually unfaithful to her, that I might as well be cheating on her... It has been rough. Then my dad died and she really was happy about it because she hoped it would "draw me back to the truth" and feel of "his spirit", when I said I feel nothing she just got angry at me... I dont know what to do!
That is so rough. I’m so sorry. My father died when I was a teen and I find it so interesting how most of my family found comfort in the church’s teachings of eternity while I on the other hand experienced my first actual doubt that the church was true or that my father still existed anywhere. I couldn’t express this until I was a married adult in my 30’s. It’s too bad that loved ones hold their beliefs as hard facts rather than personal feelings.
I never asked to be released, I told them I was no longer available for that calling. I didn’t realize until AFTER that you just “don’t do that” my husband thought it was hilarious cause I was very innocent in it all.
Sacrificing for others is a mainstay in mormonism. When I started therapy, and my faith transition was only beginning, I said, "I HAVE to be SELF-LESS!" The therapist asked, "But, do you?" I was astonished that a professional would ask such a crazy thing! OF COURSE I need to be selfless! If I don't put everyone ahead of myself, that would make me selfish! I thought about getting a new therapist, but am glad that instead, I studied it out. I immediately looked in the scriptures and found that "selfless" isn't even in there. We are supposed to love others AS WE LOVE OURSELVES. The lds lessons on being selfless, sacrificing, being strictly obedient, and putting God and others before ourselves always left out the 2nd part of that commandment. It's still very hard to put my own well-being 1st, because those teachings are so internalized after decades of indoctrination.
I'm curious if there will be an episode discussing the highlights, benefits and positive outcomes regarding discussing the loss of faith with loved ones and friends? This episode felt very weighted toward all of the endless bad outcomes that are possible. If I were an active member of the Church, I'd just circulate this episode around to everyone to showcase just how horrible leaving the Church can be.
I hear what you’re saying. A more positive episode that highlights the benefits would be helpful. At the same time, I think discussing the negatives is also necessary because people need to understand the potential consequences (loss of intimacy and relationships with friends and family, etc.) of leaving the church.
Margie thank you for sharing that religions create a problem, that only they can fix. They want you you to believe that you need them. Mormonism induces fear and insecurity (anxiety and feeling worthless), it creates a dependency for “GOD” (or Mormonism). Also Mormonism is all about lying!!! Withholding information from your kids is wrong, @1:35:33 we owe them truth and letting them do their own research. Same with your spouse be honest and open about your conflicts, it’s painful but very hurtful if they find out your were hiding your discoveries years lter. This is what the “church” did, I felt betrayed!🤬
I don’t tell anyone about my lack of god beliefs, but one thing I will not do, is lie. Even if 80 year old grannie asks me, I will say what I truly believe. What I won’t do is “proselytize” and tell her she’s all wrong. But if asked, lying doesn’t work for me. A simple truth without pushing my beliefs is best in that case.
I wish I would have found this sooner. I definitely did it the wrong way and wrote my own little essay but at least now I understand why they reacted so poorly and now I know what to do in the future with other people.
I have a question not particularly related to this episode. I know that there are the handshakes. What is the church’s opinion of someone is disabled and can’t do the handshakes. Do they have God endorsed alternatives? I’m actually asking this seriously bc a few years ago I had an accident that caused me nerve damage in my right hand. For 6 months I couldn’t even squeeze my hand into a fist let alone have fine motor control. I know some people never regain pre-accident functionality. So what then?
Truth & empathy have been occupying top spots on my list of values for months, yet they frequently compete with each other in the real world. How do you balance truth & commpassion while experiencing either crisis or transition? You talk about compassion and personal safety as reasons for non-disclosure, and those are important. How do you square that with any criticism of Joseph Smith lying to Emma about his polygamous and polyandrous relationships? Was he just keeping her from feeling the pain of knowing? Was he just trying to avoid disrupting his marriage? Maybe this is grounds to just "give Brother Joseph a break?" I've experienced this, as my ex-husband kept major issues in his life from me for years, ending in intense pain for me and my children and the termination of the marriage as a result. He didn't save me from pain by not disclosing things, he intensified it. It seems this issue is not so easy to balance.
When JS was outright lying (or not disclosing) to Emma and many others, it wasn't out of campassion for her, although that's what a TBM would likely conclude. Those who do these behaviors are acting in their own selfish interests, not out of compassion for others. Btw, I experienced a similar thing.
Wish I had seen these at the beginning of my crisis! I think this is something that you need to point people to every do often! Because there’s so much golden info in this! Thank you so much!! I don’t live in Utah or Idaho at this time so I’m not thrown into this running into people from the church and have to engage and they aren’t like Utah or Idaho anyways.. they pretty much leave you alone so I’m not threatened in any way.. but love the role plays and the way you go about setting boundaries..
I am glad you mentioned compassion being a valid reason to not disclose. I have a grandma who I have intentionally not disclosed to because there is no point in putting her through the trauma of thinking I will now be torn from her heavenly existence when she is likely going to pass on soon. There is also no point in convincing someone who spent 90 years following the church, that it was all a lie right before she dies. At that point, it is almost selfish of me to put her through that. She is so excited to go to the celestial kingdom. She believes it 100% and she talks about how excited she is to go through that process. I just nod and smile because at this point, ignorance is bliss for her. It is not worth tearing her from that fairy tale.
For my parents and siblings it is different because we still have a lot of life to live together and things can be salvaged, but some people it is actually better if they continue to believe that you are active.
I don't know if you guys understand how valuable these podcasts are. ❤
1:29:40 - my favorite part of this episode. it's so true that parenting within the church assumes that the child is sinful inherently.
I joined tiktok, in part to vent my own frustrations with other exmos who have similar hurts, but also in part to spread awareness and share my experiences which tends to not quite align with other people's experiences so others that might hear me won't feel alone, and it can be helpful for them
Baker Street reminds me of my childhood. So pure. What a great time to be alive.
I think your insightful knowledge is applicable to multiple denominational churches! Although I identify as a Roman Catholic due to my upbringing but your content speaks to me. I have a grown daughter who has her PhD (Philosophy/Psychology), she is LBGT+, teaches for Goddard University, teaches in a local Community College and is in a non-profit counseling practice with her partner. She resides in Emerald Isle, NC. I sent her the link to your podcast because I thought she & her partner would benefit listening to Natasha’s trial.Thank you for being such loving people and so real!
LOVE the role playing, and seeing the various styles. I'm a John-style, and a people pleaser/over explainer; but I can also see how Margi can end things faster with her more direct approach. Making, and enforcing, boundaries is one of my most difficult challenges, still. Thanks for these podcasts!
When you say things like, "Everything is fine" or "It's just a timing issue," I personally would not be able to get those words to come out of my mouth. It would be lying. Timing has nothing to do with the truth claims of the church being false. I'm scrupulously honest, so I'm wondering how you can be honest and authentic while talking to members who keep pressing.
I loved the role playing!! Gave me great ideas for engaging with those trying to pry!!!
Love everything you guys do 😍
Thank you for all you do in this channel to help us with our new courses in life ❤️
This has been incredibly helpful. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Wait mormon stories started when I was 2? Love this, it's very useful as a college student leaving the church!
Welcome!!!! Yes! Started in 2005!!!
I think "coming out" is great terminology .I've come out both as LGBTQ+ and as an atheist and they were very analogous to me
Your reciprocal role plays were awesome. I love how Margie says she wants the persistent nosy ward member “to feel my boundary!” Repeating and redirecting is easiest and will soon exhaust the aggressive person!
I just love Margie's boundaries. It really comes close to how people go Grey Rock with Narcissists. It's kind of my favorite.
I'm so glad you discovered Mark Nebo. He's wonderful.
When Margie (sp?) was doing the roleplay and said, "Be Careful" I burst out laughing. It was so funny because that really happens! I also loved John's response to the person at the grocery store. ❤️
I stopped believing and started disagreeing with what was said at church when I was RS 2nd counselor. 1:08:00 hr mark is what I experienced. After I told the Bishop I didn’t believe and to release me from my calling I was happy and I was able to sleep and felt peace.
Bbbb
This sounds like so much fun!
I wish I can be there in the flesh, but since I can't I'll be there in spirit! 💜
Have fun!
ExJW Solidarity! 💪
Love the comparison of The Giving Tree. I'm definitely not one, I've usually put myself first in most things in my life (I'm not a mother yet but I know that's a huge thing with motherhood). My mom was a giving tree for most of her life and it's taken a long time for her to start learning to stand up for herself and be selfish every once in awhile. My stepmom is a giving tree as well, and I know many other women in the church who are like that.
I told my wife a month ago that I didnt believe the truth claims of the church and she told me she wished we had never met and that I am being spiritually unfaithful to her, that I might as well be cheating on her... It has been rough. Then my dad died and she really was happy about it because she hoped it would "draw me back to the truth" and feel of "his spirit", when I said I feel nothing she just got angry at me... I dont know what to do!
Hi Jim,
Tough situation, sorry!
That is so rough. I’m so sorry. My father died when I was a teen and I find it so interesting how most of my family found comfort in the church’s teachings of eternity while I on the other hand experienced my first actual doubt that the church was true or that my father still existed anywhere. I couldn’t express this until I was a married adult in my 30’s. It’s too bad that loved ones hold their beliefs as hard facts rather than personal feelings.
I never asked to be released, I told them I was no longer available for that calling. I didn’t realize until AFTER that you just “don’t do that” my husband thought it was hilarious cause I was very innocent in it all.
Sacrificing for others is a mainstay in mormonism. When I started therapy, and my faith transition was only beginning, I said, "I HAVE to be SELF-LESS!" The therapist asked, "But, do you?" I was astonished that a professional would ask such a crazy thing! OF COURSE I need to be selfless! If I don't put everyone ahead of myself, that would make me selfish! I thought about getting a new therapist, but am glad that instead, I studied it out. I immediately looked in the scriptures and found that "selfless" isn't even in there. We are supposed to love others AS WE LOVE OURSELVES. The lds lessons on being selfless, sacrificing, being strictly obedient, and putting God and others before ourselves always left out the 2nd part of that commandment. It's still very hard to put my own well-being 1st, because those teachings are so internalized after decades of indoctrination.
Oh the Ensigns. I got MAILED ensigns for 5 or 6 years. They all went straight in the trash outside. Didn’t even see the inside of my house.
I'm curious if there will be an episode discussing the highlights, benefits and positive outcomes regarding discussing the loss of faith with loved ones and friends? This episode felt very weighted toward all of the endless bad outcomes that are possible. If I were an active member of the Church, I'd just circulate this episode around to everyone to showcase just how horrible leaving the Church can be.
I hear what you’re saying. A more positive episode that highlights the benefits would be helpful.
At the same time, I think discussing the negatives is also necessary because people need to understand the potential consequences (loss of intimacy and relationships with friends and family, etc.) of leaving the church.
Margie thank you for sharing that religions create a problem, that only they can fix. They want you you to believe that you need them. Mormonism induces fear and insecurity (anxiety and feeling worthless), it creates a dependency for “GOD” (or Mormonism). Also Mormonism is all about lying!!! Withholding information from your kids is wrong, @1:35:33 we owe them truth and letting them do their own research. Same with your spouse be honest and open about your conflicts, it’s painful but very hurtful if they find out your were hiding your discoveries years lter. This is what the “church” did, I felt betrayed!🤬
I don’t tell anyone about my lack of god beliefs, but one thing I will not do, is lie. Even if 80 year old grannie asks me, I will say what I truly believe. What I won’t do is “proselytize” and tell her she’s all wrong. But if asked, lying doesn’t work for me. A simple truth without pushing my beliefs is best in that case.
I wish I would have found this sooner. I definitely did it the wrong way and wrote my own little essay but at least now I understand why they reacted so poorly and now I know what to do in the future with other people.
I have a question not particularly related to this episode. I know that there are the handshakes. What is the church’s opinion of someone is disabled and can’t do the handshakes. Do they have God endorsed alternatives? I’m actually asking this seriously bc a few years ago I had an accident that caused me nerve damage in my right hand. For 6 months I couldn’t even squeeze my hand into a fist let alone have fine motor control. I know some people never regain pre-accident functionality. So what then?
Truth & empathy have been occupying top spots on my list of values for months, yet they frequently compete with each other in the real world. How do you balance truth & commpassion while experiencing either crisis or transition?
You talk about compassion and personal safety as reasons for non-disclosure, and those are important. How do you square that with any criticism of Joseph Smith lying to Emma about his polygamous and polyandrous relationships? Was he just keeping her from feeling the pain of knowing? Was he just trying to avoid disrupting his marriage? Maybe this is grounds to just "give Brother Joseph a break?"
I've experienced this, as my ex-husband kept major issues in his life from me for years, ending in intense pain for me and my children and the termination of the marriage as a result. He didn't save me from pain by not disclosing things, he intensified it. It seems this issue is not so easy to balance.
When JS was outright lying (or not disclosing) to Emma and many others, it wasn't out of campassion for her, although that's what a TBM would likely conclude. Those who do these behaviors are acting in their own selfish interests, not out of compassion for others. Btw, I experienced a similar thing.
Is part 1 missing? I can't find it anywhere.
Here's the link to part 1:
ua-cam.com/video/f1dTJAYuBzk/v-deo.html
fuuuuunnnnnny (Margie and John's intro)