Catan Placement Strategy: Advanced SECRETS
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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Change how you think about Catan, your opponents, and level up your play!
In this video, we learn Catan advanced strategy tactics to help us out of 3 tough situations in game. Watch the video to learn how to beat all 3 scenarios and learn the advanced secrets of settlement placements!
Catan Strategy Tip #1 - Create ________ ____ ___________ roads by _________ a trade!
This is tip essential to bail you out of tough situations. If used correctly, both you and your opponent will benefit quite a bit putting you two ahead in the game. Since this is still a bit uncommon, opponents will not see this coming.
Catan Strategy Tip #2 - Gain value through __________ with ________ settlement placements!
Here is another tip that will gain you extra value and can potentially balance the game at no cost to you. You can bluff using this move to gain extra value at the beginning of the game.
Catan Strategy Tip #3 - Combine __________ and ___________ to get a huge advantage at the __________ of the game!
Using both of these tactics will bring you a huge advantage at the beginning of the game as you generated a lot of free value to accelerate your game. These look like crazy ideas, but at the top of competitive play, these tactics are used all the time!
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Check out the multiple time 🏆North American Champion’s Book! 🏆(amzn.to/3mJZTXH)
Change how you think about Catan, your opponents, and level up your play!
Thx for the recommendation! I read the book in the 30 minutes after I watched this video!
I checked that there was only one official CATAN Americana Championship, and its not won by Mark Oxer, www.catan.com/tournaments-events/catan-championships/cac-nation-rankings#cac-2019
Hey I'm gonna buy it but 2 questions 1) Are there sufficient illustrations/ pictures or only text? 2) How about the Kindle version? I have Kindle gift card which is in USD exclusively but I live in Canada. What should I do?
I've never thought about playing like this. This is advanced stuff indeed
Thanks Jacob!’
@@DyLightedCatan
yeah good talking is far more than just trading ressoures. Getting friends without directly betraying them can be far more benefitial.
Nah not really it’s not a binding trade
I can't imagine the extortion technique would go over well after just setting up a game with family, friends, or at a board game meet up. 😂
Hahah yea it doesn’t work well in casual games.
My family already hates my playing 😂🤓
@@DyLightedCatan if you tried that shit on me I’d agree to whatever trade and then not trade it to you lmao
I have no clue, but here is a comment for the algorithm
Thanks! Your comments are always appreciated!
Wow, these plays are getting more and more big-brained! It's amazing to see Dylan back in action with these high level strategies, you've earned a sub for sure.
Thanks Aaron! I appreciate it man! I’m glad I could earn your subscription!
Although this is a good tactic, I have to feel it is a sure fire way to get everyone to team against you from the start
I think you’re right! If you are playing against people who will get upset if you do this, then don’t do it! Or present it in a very nice manner.
Great strategy! , any strategies on howto recuperate your friends after extortionating them? 😁
Haha well when you extort them, you have to not treat it as pointing a gun at them. But rather doing a deal that helps both players out, this way you can maintain that healthy relationship in the game.
Awesome stuff Dylan! Great new animations, I think they add a ton of value to your content. I can also confirm he used the saying at the end of the video and didn't pull that out of this air.
Thanks Treeck! I appreciate it!
In the third scenario, we can extort blue by threatening to take the 3/4/11, locking them out of wheat. The better play is to take the 6/4/2 since if green gets their hand on sheep, it's very strong. But since you're lacking wood, you can demand that as their first trade, you give blue a wheat (maybe wheat+sheep if they're reluctant) for a road so that you can cut green off to the sheep port.
Edit: Oh, well, half right I guess!
Yep!!! Nice job! Extorting one of them is key!
@@DyLightedCatan I am wondering how often does this backfire by the player actually not trading you in the first round after initially accepting the deal. And how to act on this.
@@sifly4331 I am curious if this has ever happened before in this scenario and what usually happens in a competitive scene when it does over table talk
@sifly I was wondering that as well. I personally am not looking to be in a competitive situation any time soon but if this happened with my friends I think they would be seen as a sort of a cheater. We would probably invalidate their win if they won or just make fun of them if they still didn’t win.
That’s really just a scummy play but you’re right - sometimes in competition it is ‘anything it takes to win’. I would just hope that if someone repeatedly makes scummy plays like that, then the community wouldn’t support players like that.
This is a fantastic video. Wowowow. Never thought about an artificial road trade. My opponents are to dumb to take it. They just want to block me cause I’m the best
Heya Sam! Hahaha this comment was hilarious 😆
Same here, I play with family and friends mostly and they always gang up against me because i've lost like 2 games on I would say 65 games with them.
Instead of saying something about the video: 🙃
2:50
nice hair cut, man ✂️😍😂
Instructions unclear. I ended up going on the 9/12 for my 2nd settlement and got cut off immediately
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
1:24 "Okay Green, if I leave you the 9/4/11, you're gonna take it right? 5 resources, good production, balanced roads...
Especially if I go on the 4/11/Brickport, right? Like if you're gonna go for a defensive 9/10 placement against me, you're just kingmaking for Black who's not been making or hit by any defensive settlements. So let's just Black, you, and me play a normal game of Catan, you go on the 9/4/11, and I get the other brick and then the 9/10."
Ok yeah you've secured a much higher-producing spot with the same expansion spots, using a much riskier sounding incentivization and also using the trust that your promise has value. You are a bit slower than me on the brick for the 9/10 expansion though...
Those are some great thoughts!
One of my favourite things about this channel is how up front he is about algorithm etc- it's so refreshing to hear someone just be real about it and straight up ask for some support
Really great examples, thanks so much for posting! A small question - how honest are people at high level tournaments? Fulfilling their end of the bargain later in the game is not part of the rules, is it? Sure, nobody would want to play with a liar in the future, but officially nothing would prevent them from registering for future tournaments, right?
Good question, most people I talk to are pretty truthful and will follow up on the deal. However only ever once in an actual tournament someone didn’t follow through on the deal, and I’ve done deals like this countless times.
They don't have to follow through with it. I think this makes situation 2 too risky for my personal tastes. However, people are generally honest for some reason so it will probably work out against most normal people since most people aren't playing logically.
Dang the 1st situation is BIG BRAIN. Blue is so done.
The second situation, I would take the 5/9/10 in a heartbeat, but that setup is so strong I might get blocked non-stop during the game (8 ore is a robber magnet) and put me in a big disadvantage with no cities. Plus the outs are terrible (thank you desert). So the extortion tactic does make sense!
The third situation, I initially thought of extorting Green for not putting on the 6/4/2, but didn't see that I could extort Blue too.
Question: What happens if they initially agree to the deal but refuse to trade later, though?
Yea, so the weakness of extortion is people lying and not following through. Usually people are pretty trustworthy though but sometimes you encounter a situation where people lie. In games for money, don’t be surprised if people lie to you. It’s a sad truth but I personally try to never break the extortion deals I made.
Definitely agree on the second scenario, just take 5/9/10 and run with it. It looks like an untouchable setup but I’m guessing it did not work out that way 😏
First off you are super great to do this for everyone. Bringing light to the depths of strategy to Catan is huge, thank you.
The book seems like a sweet idea and a good gift.
Now the important stuff. I’ll say you are doing this to open minds, give ideas, share potential strategies and we should take these as suggestions and not “the best play possible”. If you see them as “the correct moves and anything different is subpar” then here are some thoughts.
Scenario 1: letting green have the 6/9 wheat and the 3:1 port when they have a 5/8 sheep/stone is too good. It’s better for everyone if green takes the 9/10 stone/wheat. As far as where you should then place, the 9/11/4 seems like the best spot. Letting blue take the 6/2 wheat/sheep means they will get robbed. And yeah your future 9 stone gets blocked but trade green the wheats they won’t have from their 10 getting blocked and you have plenty from double up on the 9. Or you know trade black because we haven’t talked about them and that makes them the weak position idk. Heck 8 could go blank the whole game and 6 rolls so blue wins.
Scenario 2: you did note “for this video“ so I assume you were asking for leniency here. You need to place at the 5/9/10 b/c the 8/4/2 only gives you four unique numbers, even after you expand to the brick/sheep or stone port. Feast or famine sure but not in a high stakes game right, you want to be balanced? 5/9/10 is objectively better for you. It’s strong o-w-s, double the 5, you get a 3:1 port and you get 5 unique numbers. Then 6 and 7 once you get the 2 and 4 off the 3:1/brick ports respectively. I also don’t think there’s that much danger in black eating the Bridgeport. You mentioned if I four rolls they could use the double road and cut you off but that is there only one number and yes it’s possible but I think everyone would be willing to risk it. Black could roll at seven and try to steal from blue/red to get a brick but in total that is a 2/6 chance. Again risk it. Additionally I don’t see how black is beating green to the 5/9/2 and red to the 8/4. Green will focus on getting to the sheep port first while black focuses on the 8/4 first per your suggestion. If they don’t then they then focus on the 5/9/2 first which gives red the time to focus on the 8/4. You didn’t really say black would get both but trying to emphasize their potential.
Scenario 3: naturally I thought you would extort green and didn’t even pay attention to red. Thanks for adding a potential no response scenario because I personally think people won’t make deals. I probably lack persuasive ability. Objectively it’s better to do the 6/4/2 B/C green getting that port and getting the spot is bonkers good. If you don’t settle there that seems like green has the game. Curious to what you would say a player would realistically give you from the start of the game that is more than two cards? I forgot your wording specifically but you leaned into the idea of leveraging a lot from your opponents. Would someone really give you their starting three cards just to not settle in a particular spot? If you think of it over the course of a game is that spot worth three cards to them, well sure it will likely produce more than three cards for them not to mention of points from that spot due to trades and settling etc. So the person gives you three cards not to go there, but how much more do you think you could get from them? Their next _ resource? Not to rob you the first time they can rob someone; but what if you aren’t the person worth robbing anyways? Ask for a one time no denying trade with the emphasis it’s a 2:1 or 3:2 “fair” deal?
Again just some thoughts. It’s crazy to think of every single move and direction a game can go at any given roll of the dice. Thanks for your videos and what you do for the game. See you at Nationals (assuming this vaccine helps and Origins happens).
Love all the thoughts Robert! This is a super long comment with a lot of thoughts/questions. I don’t think I meant in the video that any of these options were “correct,” but rather ideas to help you boost your game and give you an advantage. I know in a few years the game will advance farther than I can imagine and a lot of the things we think are “correct” will have better options.
@@DyLightedCatan I didn’t think you thought these were the best/correct options, just when we break them down there seemed to be ideas and questions to discuss but again you are doing this for many levels of players and that is great.
3:31 Right now I don't have Wood, Brick, or Sheep yet, and I have a strong Ore/Wheat setup that could be complemented with strong Sheep. There's a lot of Wood and Brick on this map and 2 players have strong Road setups already, so I definitely want to go for OWS. If I take the 4/3/8, I'm gonna not have Wood but Wood is even more plentiful on this map than Brick, I'm gonna have a stronger OWS setup than Blue, and Blue's gonna struggle getting some Brick unless he wants to box himself in with the 11/4/5 when Green's probably gonna take the 10/9/11 or the 5/10/9. I have a great expansion spot with the last resource, a harbor, and good production, and I'm feeling pretty comfortable. I don't think Green or Blue wants to start on the 8/4/Brickport.
Great analysis Iwer! Thanks for always being the first few people to comment! I always wonder when you would show up
Oh yeah that pressure trade is a really strong improvement, with no concessions as we're getting the 4/3/8 either way. The odds of a 4 on the first 4 rolls are only 23%, but it's better to be safe. Even without trust in Green's word, this argument with inhibiting Black and getting twice as much production as Green gives up from the 11 Ore, this tabletalk will likely work. Great lesson!
1. I take the 2 10 9 so green takes the 10 9 11
2. 4 3 8 so I get the coordinated 8
3. 10 8 To get the Wood and you can cut off Purple with a road
Those are all great thoughts without the table talk. The first one, 2-9-10 is probably the best solution to save your 10-9.
Just for algorithms good job put some whole game +table talking
Wait for next week! I’m still deciding if I want to put out a game or a bit sized strategy video!
I have a question that I don't think gets asked/talked about much.
Is it bad manners/bad etiquette to propose a deal to a player and then fall back on that deal later on in the game?
Example in this video: Let's say in situation 2, green agrees to take the 5/9/10 and trade a wood for brick at the start of the game (so red doesn't take 5/9/10), but as the game starts, green does not do this trade.
I've seen a lot of these deals made, but I've never seen it broken. Just curious if there is etiquette around this.
Yes, it is very bad etiquette to not follow through on something you said. However strategically wise, this is the best counter to extortion. However most players don’t lie and follow through on their word.
Nice video! One question though:
What if blue agrees on the deal, but after you place and the game has started, refuses to trade with you? Since it's not a direct resource for recourse trade within a turn I don't believe there's any rules preventing this?
Just asking because I had had this happen before.
Yep! Your opponent can always back out of a deal since these deals are non binding, but most people follow through on their word.
These are evil and I wouldn't use them in my friendly Catan games... haha, jk extorting friends is fun. Nice video dude
Hahaha, now go have fun extorting your friends in Catan!
What is to stop people from bailing on deals prior to the starting of the game? Is it just common courtesy or are the obligated to do that?
The deals are non binding, but that’s a risk you have to take. Most players do go through with the deal though!
decision at 7:14:
I would consider taking the 10/8, but not the port spot as the ore port isn't worth it. this is for the instant free road to cut purple off to the 3/4. You can probably beat blue to the settlement here because they have no wheat and you have higher production to 4:1 brick for that missing sheep. This not only cripples both blue and purple but this would set you up for a strong LR game with plenty of space to expand on the right hand side and have lots of brick for the brick port.
my other thought would be the 6/4/2 to cut green off and get the missing sheep for a ore/wheat/sheep game. then you goal would be to get the wheat port so you can trade for the missing resources.
personally I prefer the first option, but I shall now play the video and see what you thought.
Have to say I haven't played with tabletalk at all so that's probably why I wasn't thinking along those lines. nice one.
Yea it hinges all on table talk as most competitive games involve it. The game changes when you can talk with your opponents. It’s a completely different game.
DylLighted for the 3rd scenario you forgot one key tip. That purple is Takeshi so you got on the 8-10 because you can't let him win after the Premier League Season 1 Final :)
Hahaha 😝
Last example. Haven't watched the answer yet. What I would do is I would go tell green That the 2/4/6 was looking juicy and that me taking it would be horrible for him or her. Then I would offer to settle in the 3/4/11 instead in exchange for one brick. That gives me two roads I can use to block blue from the port.
3:41 So I head 3 options in mind.
first I thought about the 4/5/11 bwo as it would guarantee to get to the port.
then I thought if this is enough to win as I had no sheep
so I looked for the good sheep spots.
I saw 5/9/10 as the best spot, though it really lacks bricks for road building, also as I dont have bricks I dont really need the brick port. With this Im basically locked into the ows game and hoping to get enough bricks from someone else.
I didnt thought about the 3/4/8 I think, as I was too focused over the 5/9/10. Or maybe I did, but fastly scrapped that as I would really need to get to the brick port for that to work out.
so well, you found the way to secure the brick port so. One step ahead. or maybe another 20 because you basically locked out everyone else except for green which was the least likely to have a good game anyway.
Great video! As green in the first scenario, I definitely would have taken the deal to place on the 9-10-2 and cut off blue. This would make it so I thought you were the biggest threat in the game, however. But with how many 7s came up in our game, I see you winning the game with you just having so much production and every resource
Your assuming I play with real people instead of AI all the time :(
That’s true, this strategy will not work without communication and bots. I recommend playing against real players though!
Wow this video is just AMAZING...King of the table talk! Wanna try it out but I'm super afraid of being targeted the rest of the game 😂 Looking forward to reading the book when it arrives January! 🤓
Thanks Rachel! Also thank you for checking out the book! I hope you find it useful! 😁
Are these deals binding though? In scenario 3 lets say you're green. Why not say you'll sell the farm to screw over blue? Then just say, nah.
I worry about placing suboptimally for an unbinding agreement.
Regardless, these are great examples to think over!
Yes! That’s a great thought. It’s the single biggest counter to extortion. However most players don’t lie and it’s also sort of bad etiquette to lie. Though if you’re playing for a ton of money, then it’s understandable. But most games people are pretty trustworthy.
I would say it is a very bad etiquette to extort people. Often players would team up against such a bully right from the start and that would be fair.
Definitely advanced stuff! I wonder how many tournament players are using these strategies and principles consistently 🤔
In the cash tournaments you commentate on it’s used less frequently, but in something called the Premiere league, a group of high level players, it’s used very frequently.
I got nothing. I’d just take the 3/4/11 but here’s a comment to help the algorithm.
Thanks Christopher! It’s a pretty hard spot so I just appreciate you giving me a comment!
not sure i'd allow talking during settlement placements if i was writing tournament rules.
wow that was advanced. seems like you can talk your way to win this game :D
Pause... I would tell green that if he takes the 9-10-2 wheat-wood-wood spot, and points their road towards the 3-1 port to cut off blue, I'd trade them the brick I'd start with on the 9-4-11 for any card of theirs so they can for sure cut off blue since green will go first... This seems equally beneficial to green and red, and only hurts blue... It's what blue gets for trying to be smart and placing a defensive initial settlement instead of just taking the production everyone would expect them to take... (jk blue)
Pause #2... I'd probably take the 8-4-3 sheep-brick-brick spot and point my road towards the coast... It goes well with the 8-4 expansion you're pointing towards at the top of the island, both because it produces brick to pair with the eventual wood, and because it gives you brick for the brick port on the 8-4... It's also the spot I'd least want blue to get as a 2nd settlement, since they're already on the very powerful 6-5-9 spot and the 8-4-3 would complete their 5 resources, and with both strong ore-wheat-sheep and strong wood-brick, along with very strong production, they'd be very difficult to stop... This would most likely leave green to take the 5-9-10 or 9-10-11, depending on if they prefer more sheep for their sheep port or a small amount of ore production... Then blue would most likely be left with the 5-4-11 to give them brick to go along with their wood and a free road to head to the 3-1 port, but this is much less strong than the 8-4-3, since they don't produce sheep and are doubled up on the 5-wood along with green, making it an ideal spot for the robber...
Pause #3... I'd tell green I'd rather take the 6-3 spot on the sheep port, over the 6-4-2, since there's so much sheep in the game and it will come in handy... Then tell them the only way I'll take the 6-4-2 and point my road towards the coast is if they trade me the wood they start with for a card of my choosing, so I can get to the 9-12, 3-1 port on the bottom right of the island... This ensures you get the wood you're missing in the early game, and gives you a more productive 2nd initial settlement anyways, worth 9 pips instead of 7... It will be more valuable later in the game, especially once it's upgraded to a city, so you're really not giving up anything to get the free wood trade from green... (but of course you have to make it seem like you are)...
Yeah after watching the end your leveraging makes a lot more sense... Green would want the 6-4-2 just as much as the 6-3 anyways, since they don't produce sheep to start, so the extortion I suggested wouldn't really work that well... They probably wouldn't agree to it and give you the wood you need...
Love that you tried all 3 scenarios! Thank you Ted!!
Is this allowed? I don't think the rules mention anything like this, but I have never heard of politics like this in a catan game :)
It’s allowed, but it’s nonbinding.
@@DyLightedCatan Is it common for people to go back on non binding deals in tournaments? Especially if they will lose if not?
@@aimeestenekes3746 not really, but it can happen.
Hi Dyl, I'm getting up-to-date with your videos, so I'm a little late to the party :P But hey, better late than never.
Personally, I'm not fond of these kind of strategies where you extort players. Never been. But then, I've never been to a competitive game and/or tournament. I'm more of a "have fun with friends & family" kind of player.
But I'm curious about these strategies.. Do you see them used very much in competitive games? What happens if the other player "accepts" the deal, but then doesn't do their part? From what I've read, there's nothing about this kind of deals in the rules, so there's no penalty for breaking a deal legally. What would happen if a deal is broken in a tournament? I imagine that every other player would act against that deal breaker. Have you seen or heard about something like this?
Even though I personally don't like these strategies, I still liked the video, because I believe they would be pretty useful in competitive games. And also I really like your strategy videos. Yours is one of my favorite Catan related channels.
Keep up the good work, man!
Hey Leonel! Thanks for commenting and watching my videos. If I recall correctly, you’re a long time viewer! Thanks for sticking with me. About the extortion tactics, unfortunately they are used ALL the time in strong competitive games. It’s certainly a different type of beast when you first encounter it. That I can say for sure.
These types of deals are “nonbinding” where none of the players actually have to follow through with them. However, I can say that most competitive players have integrity and will follow through on their deals.
The issue is that extortion generates a lot of extra value which is pretty game changing. At the higher levels, if you don’t use extortion then you play at a huge disadvantage. I hope that makes sense. Nothing actually happens if you don’t follow through on a deal. It just makes you less trustworthy to your opponents.
My idea for the first chqllenge was to take the 4/8/desert spot. This way, you give green the 4/9/11 spot, allowing him to start strong, and opening the 9/10 port to yourself. This allows you to play a diverse game without looking threatning, playing for tye longest road with possible cities and dev cards.
That’s not a bad thought! I think another fine alternative is to simply take the 3-10-11 to keep the 9-10 open.
In the third scenario, would you ever think about taking the 8-10, point your road right, and then use that free road on your first turn to build down towards the 3-4-11? I know this doesn't use either strategy, and obviously it's risky because you then have to engage in a race with blue for that spot (or just the 3-4), but if your numbers hit and you win the race then it seems you could have really affected the game plans of both blue and purple. If no, is part of the reason because starting with sheep access is too important given your first placement?
Good thought! You could always do this but it’s risky as you said. Another way is to simply extort blue by threatening to go on the 8-10.
Adding an advice of my own. Don't try this at home, or with friends. You won't be invited to play again. Lesson I learned long time ago. Otherwise, smart useful stuff for competitive games.
Yup! I 100% agree with you. No need to use such tryhard tactics at a causal home game! This is just meant for competitive play, or for people who are looking to play a bit more competitively.
I am wondering if there is a way to counter the extortion tactic by attacking the person who is trying to extort.
For example in the 3rd scenario, if I was green and red was proposing that deal to blue, I could counter offer to give my starting road to blue to backstab red’s extortion deal by giving blue two free roads to almost cut off red’s first settlement and work towards 912; assuming that red goes 642. Since red has no wood production, blue can get one more road to cut off red and go to 912. Also, green can get a road from production to cut off red to 63. Therefore, green and blue work together against red instead of being pitted against each other like a Saw situation.
Only thing that may be bad is that blue breaking a deal is unethical. But red trying to extort may also be unethical as well. But then again, blue may also backstab green and stick with red’s original plan.
Hahah yep. This is where you can go into a rabbit hole of strategy and ways to approach it differently. This is why I love Catan and find it interesting.
I place a comment in the valuable comment section as that will give DyLighted more opportunities with the rare UA-cam algorithm resource. Then, I extort DyLighted to make more strategy content videos by clicking on the like button.
🤣🤣🤣
@DyLighted - Catan
If you use extorsion and say this to the other player: 'if you give me a wood and a brick i won't cut you off' then what's the guarantee that he will keep his word and give you those resources? After you placed your settlement, you aren't a threat for him.
It’s a risk you have to take but most people will follow through on their word. You can always let them know the punishment for not following through is robbing 3 times, which incentives them to follow through or put both of you in a worse position.
[ A L G O R I T H M ]
This is so much like playing commander in mtg. Political players always out value their opponents xD
Hahah yep! By doing creative things like this, it helps you out value your opponents quite a bit!
I never thought of extorting people before placements, awesome video! Congrats on another brand deal and I think your new editor did a great job!
Thank you! I thought he did a good job too! I appreciate it :)
The obvious downside in all these deals here though is that you will need another player to stick to their word which they are not required to do according to the rules of the game or any tournament I have played in.
On a platform like King of Catan I have rarely seen someone not stick to their word since you will very quickly get a bad reputation and such deals will not be struck with you anymore.
However, if it is really a high stakes game or an important tournament you might just find yourself playing against someone who will tell you what you need to hear and then refuse the trade. How would you deal with that situation? Target and boycott that player for the rest of the game?
bjaki
Generally, I would recommend reading the table before doing something like this. If you think they will not follow through, then simply don’t do it. If they don’t follow through with the trade, you can always threaten “for the next 3 robbers I will rob you as a punishment for not following your word” as a scare tactic. It’s up to you if you actually want to follow through with that punishment though. There’s multiple ways to deal with this, this is just one that popped into my head.
Dylan, I have been introduced to Catan lately and I learn a lot from your videos. This one is a whole new layer. I understand, that those negotiated deals regarding initial placement, as well as the deals regarding being robbed, are not covered by the rules. What is the etiquette in high stakes tournaments? Are you expected to keep your word? What happens if you don't? In the cases described in this video you are in a strong negotiating position, but are there any means to make sure that the other side keeps their part of the deal?
Usually, most players follow through with their word. In higher stakes tournaments you can probably expect it to work less, depending on who you’re playing with. If they don’t keep their word it sucks for you, but it’s your job to incentive them to do so. If I think someone is sketchy and might break the deal, I’ll remind them the consequences of breaking a deal is 3 robber blocks/steal on them to give them a better incentive to follow through
Very interesting thoughts. I never thought about the game in those terms, because I thought agreements such as these are not binding. I also thought that extortion such as "give me a material so I don't hit you with a robber" are against the rules.
What is stopping the other players from not going through on the deal and you being stuck with sub-optimal placement? Is it the threat of you king-making?
Good questions! First off all of these are nonbinding, but most people follow their word. You can always arrange a punishment such as robbing the person 5 times. That’ll decrease the chance they screw you since you have the threat of gang robbing them back. Also, extortion is legal.
This is probably a better strategy against randos in tournaments than in your home game. While mild extortion is okay sparingly with my family, it wouldn't go over very well in large amounts like this and no one would want to play anymore. Aka - read the table before trying this.
Yes!! Perfectly said!
Any chance you will do videos on Cities and Knights? Most of this strategies don't translate well into C&K. I think it will be a good mini-series (like 3 to 5 videos maybe?) as there are very few videos on here that discuss strategies for that expansion.
I don’t really play cities and knight that often so I’m not qualified to teach it, but I’m sure I could learn from someone or have them teach it here.
@@DyLightedCatan please do !
In that last scenario, if I was blue I would say yes to the deal, but then I wouldn't trade you and extort something out of green to not do the trade, so he won't get cut off.
Most tournament players don't like what you're doing in the first place, so no grudges towards me either.
I think most tournament players wouldn’t really care and simply want to win. I like 100% take a deal like that if it improves my position. To back out of a deal is looked down upon though it’s perfectly valid, but at the same time you can threaten to punish the player if they don’t follow through such as robbing them 3-4 times if they backstab you on the deal.
Question is you make a deal before your turn then the other player ditches the deal with you. What then? Maybe you play with not so honorable people.
You have to know who you’re playing with, and also offer an incentive for them to follow through. Most people do follow through through!
In the second situation. I think the 8 and 10 could be good if you can get a free road negotiated from blue or green and cut off purple.
That is another idea I did see but didn’t mention in the video due to time. But great job pointing it out here!
What about if they say they'll make the deal, you place accordingly and then they don't deliver?
That’s always a risk you have to take, but you most players will follow through with the deal.
Your ideas are great! In the 3rd problem you can also put extortion on purple by treating to put on 8-10
Yes!!! Exactly right.
This can be super useful. I’ve just started trying to apply defensive placements in my games, extortion is something I only really think about mid game as opposed to in the start. Thanks for the tips!
Yep! It’s another way to use a strategy you previously learned, but applying it to a different context!
you do love the color red tough
but yeah for the first game the asnwer was obvious but i didn't get the reasoning good, the 2nd one i didn't get good either since i didn't see on the fact that you can screw over lime a for the 3rd one it's pretty interesting and one of them is screwed either way unless neither decide to take the deal and they help out each other instead
I’m glad you took the time to engage with the video!
For the last scenario I think I would take 6/2/4 Bc we have the wheat port right next to us
Thanks for taking the time to comment!
The last game is like "prisoners dilemma" for blue and green. In the long run, I think its best for neither of them to negotiate with you at all here.
Blue is risking the most by being locked out of wheat, but he could turn to green and say "If we both dont negotiate with red, we can help out each other. If he places on 642, Ill help you cut him off. But if he places on 3411, i need x amount of wheat trades".
Yes!!! Not all players will see this though. In fact, most don’t and are pretty unfamiliar with these situations and simply bend to the pressure given to them.
It feels a bit unsportsmanlike...
For the last one, I would go on the 6,4,2 because you get the sheep you need plus you get a total of three wheats on the map while your near a wheat port
Fundamentally it’s the best option! I would default place over therr
Table talk tips are super helpful. Love to learn it. Algorithm algorithm algorithm
Thank you thank you Caesar!!! Appreciate it a ton
This is a really great video mate, I can tell lots of effort went into it!
Thank you! I appreciate it!
6,4,2 or the 3,4,11 and ask blue or green for a starting deal?
Hey Dyl, great video!
In another video, I think it was the one with the 2018 world championship first settlement analyse, you said you'd link a playlist of interesting tournament games in the description, but I think you forgot it.
Could you show me the link?
I'd love to watch some more high level gameplay now I've watched most of your videos😅.
Merry Christmas from Germany
Bastian
ua-cam.com/play/PLabQHPHk0xMky0rraR6jK_QiS3YAER3JE.html
Here you go!
@@DyLightedCatan thanks a lot!
Why wouldn't the other players agree to your deal but then refuse the agreed upon trade after your placement?
You have to trust them, but you can also say “if you don’t follow through, I will be forced to rob you 5 consecutive times this game” as a scare tactic/punishment. This way they will be more incentivized to go through with the trade.
Random comment for the algorithm, just keep scrolling
Thank you! I appreciate it!
Thanks for another great video Dylighted!
Thank you!!
I thought this video was really cool - especially that last scenario where it seemed to me that neither the 3,4,11 nor the 6,4,2 were great spots in isolation; but coupled with the threat of hurting blue and green suddenly you are the one controlling the situation!
Yes! Since everyone is working in their self interest you can easily take control of the situation and profit.
As red you offer green the 2-9-10 and you take 4911, tell him you'll sell the brick 1:1 to cut off black
You got it!
in #3 I saw the move for threatening green, but not threatening blue. Didn't occur to me that I could threaten more than one player
Yes! You can extort all 3 players here actually. You can extort using the 8-10 free road too!
6:57 The defensive settlement placement here would be the 2/6/4, blocking Green's best expansion spot and cutting him off Sheep. I could also go on the 10/8/Brickport, which gives me the strongest Road setup, good production, a pretty much ideal port, and I have enough expansion spots in the southeast. I can't extort a Sheep from Green though, as Green doesn't have Sheep yet... However, if a 9 or 10 rolls, I can ask for another Wood and cut off Purple to the 5 Sheep... idk I'm pretty stumped here, as I don't really see a use for the previous 2 lessons here
7 points of production without good road balance or OWS balance? That spot (4/3/11)... went pretty much over my head, I considered it briefly but I found it way too weak for me
Ohh that's an ore port
I'm not convinced that either Green or Blue will hold their promise and actually trade me the road. All they have to do is sound more convincing than the other of the two for that one time, and then just never play me again
Hahaha yea. It’s pretty player dependent. If you know someone is pretty honest, then go ahead and take a deal with them. If you know someone has the potential to scam you, then don’t do it with them. I personally recommend building up a reputation that can be trusted and following through with your deals.
You dont have to heart every comment dyllan :D we get it, you're a nice guy
Hahaha thanks! I took a break from commenting and hearting after reading this. I’m just coming back to this comment after 4 days. I really appreciate what you’re saying though!
Have you had a situation where a player seemingly agrees with your tabletalk demands but doesn't follow through? I.e. in the last example, blue agrees to trade his road for your wheat. You place on the 6-4-2, screwing over green, then when your turn/blue's turn comes along he doesn't trade you. In that case, you screw over green, and blue still gets on the 4-3. Big fan of your vids btw! Definitely has helped me get much better at Catan.
Thanks! Yes - that happened to me in tournament before. Always sort of sucks, but it can happen. I would say lying is probably the biggest counter to extortion.
@@DyLightedCatan on the other hand, players unintegrious don't tend to get offered trades later on, it usually doesn't pay off in the game and in general
I literally just bought the book before I watch this video.
Thanks for supporting Mark!
Hey dylighted .. what about catanVR Players? We under go the element of F2f play it's super emotional.
We have several catanVR LEAGUE champions .
You should go to catanVR.CLUB ... With our disadvantage in comparison to CU or colonist lack of F2f , would we be able to qualify for this competition? Lol not me tho
For the third scenario, immediately I am attracted to the 3,4,11 because it patches up sheep and wood and strengthens wheat; but when I think of my eventual game plan, I don’t particularly like this setup for either dev cards or longest road. The strong wheat seems attractive but I fear that I would get the robber placed on me a lot.
However, it looks like green will be in a strong position with an early expansion to the 6,4,3 and the 3:1 port.
This idea of bargaining resources for starting placements is a little foreign to me. First, I didn’t recognize how much I could hurt blue with the 3,4,11. But your trade offer of cutting green off and building a road is really good. I couldn’t spot that.
I’ve been playing a lot more Colonist.io due to COVID, do you recommend balanced or random dice? Which is more normal?
Balanced dice is artificially balanced and normal dice can have more variance. I am pretty neutral on both dice.
@@DyLightedCatan much appreciated. My buddy noticed 5, 9, and 10 get rolled pretty regularly on the Random setting.
This is why there should be a long timer on placements
I totally agree!
I know the end result probably doesn't change, but wouldn't it be better to open the bidding war right away in the last scenario? If you talk to either player first, I think you're screwing yourself. Say you talk to blue first and says no as you said. Green now has leverage over you because he knows that's not your ideal placement because of how you talked to blue about moving away from his spot. Or maybe if you open a bidding war right away there's a weird psychological thing where they both just decline and kinda turn on you? Just something to think about, great vids as always, love your content Dylan
Really interesting! I think you’re right that you would lose some leverage if someone said “no” to you. I think your idea might be slightly better!
@@DyLightedCatan Appreciate the reply! Love your work and everything you do for the Catan community and competitive scene! Happy to see you grow like you have and getting those sweet sweet endorsement deals, you deserve it all.
@@mateomonterrubio8383 Thank you so much Mateo! I'm just truly grateful for all the support I receive!
The problem with the extortion in game 2 is that green can just agree to the deal then just not do it and leave you far worse off and himself far better off. Then what do you do? Kick yourself for not taking the 9/5/10? Kingmake somebody else?
This is my favourite video so far. So advanced.
Glad you could enjoy it D Pilon! This was one I enjoyed quite a bit too
There is one problem with these "deals".1.What if they dont go through with it?They can betray you without any penalty 2.Everyone else gets pissed at you and plays against you all game.
People who betray deals are shunned due to dishonesty/lack of integrity is a very bad trait
Yea usually you can make these deals without any consequence especially if you develop a solid reputation for always following through with your word. Against feel players, you just have to talk carefully and make sure not to annoy them too much.
@@DyLightedCatan I am just saying this is a very risky strategy. In a tournament with money on the line and people you ve never seen, "betrayal" is veeery possible.
This social part of the game can really backfire imo.
Also you have limited time for placements and actions and the long discussions-negotiations of friendly games are not possible.
Lastly the biggest mistake on high level is to think you are smarter and you can manipulate things your way. It will backfire. Trust me.
Just my two cents.
Ps.I dont even know if this kind of "deals", "extortion" etc are allowed on big tournaments but even if they are they can surely backfire big time.
2 videos in one week?! I guess this is Christmas
Haha thanks Jason.
For last board place in 10 brick 8 wood and cut off purple with starting road in 1st position and u will likelmey beat blue
7:17 play: tell green that I will not go on the 624, blocking them out of their needed wheat and sheep to pair with higher ore rolls if they trade their brick with me. I then take the 3411 for access to the brick port
Just watched your analysis, love that idea of pitting players against each other when you have to cut one of them off
Also I love the 10 minute video length! Feels accessible to watch anytime I get a chance
Thanks for all the comments and love. I just posted another quick 10 minute one! :)
In the second scenario, why would you go for the brick port instead of the ore port if you’re on that 8 ore?
Great video, never thought of these concepts myself!
Thank you!!! I appreciate it man!
I thought that the 6-4-2 spot was great, and it jumped out to me right away. I don't like the 3-4-11 because it's lower production, and I don't care about making deals since I grew up playing board games without table talk. I would take the 6-4-2 and point up towards the 3-1 port instead of getting a 2-1 port since I will get cut off without negotiating. However, I am a beginner player and don't know much about the game. DyLighted, do you have any thoughts about my thought process here? Is the 3-4-11 still better, and why?
Dylighted how can I Donate you my $$$??
I recently inherited a Huge Sum & LOVE CATAN & Want to Support the Best CatanTuber
This was very interesting. I actually made similar or even the exact same moves in every case but for different reasons. This game has incredible depth and strategy. So fun
Great video. Hope to see more videos of you commenting on your gameplay/reasoning in games, as I love to hear your thoughts not only on single decisions (like in this video) but a series of decisions throughout the game and your gameplan. Thank you for your channel, I've been enjoying your content a lot and I'm glad you're back :)
First off, thank you for the comment! Hopefully more gameplay videos will be coming soon! I appreciate all the support man!
Algorithm
Thanks Ysa!! Always appreciated.
Actually paused to comment because you did such a good job of selling it- my answer is to black mail purple by threatening to take the 8/10 ore port. Instead, you should take the 6/3 sheep port on the condition that purple trades you their wood on the first turn of the game, allowing you to cut off green and build aggressively toward the 6/4/2 spot, effectively cutting green out of the game entirely. This gives you by far the strongest O/W/S setup on the board, while also preserving purple’s win condition with a longest road strategy
What about planning the trade with green but instead of placing it on the 3,4,11 you place it only on the 3,4 and on your first turn build a road to the 8,10 wood brick. You basically eliminate blue and purple with that move. Or is it too risky because purple will still chase the 8,10 even tho he is 2 roads behind?
It's awesome to see a game played with negotiations going like that!! At 5:29 you show us how to deal with difficult situation number 2. My question is: what if you put your 2nd settlement on 3/4/8 and green does NOT honor the deal. Are they allowed to? What would be the consequences of that?
Tell green he can have the 9-11-4 & take the 4-8 desert spot instead
Telling green to cut off blue with a trade makes sense, but wouldn't work with my family, they'd cut me off instead for sure unless I left spot open
7:12 would def place on the 8 10 ore port spot, there are plenty sheep spaces you can still build to and youll likely be able to trade for them easily