Phoenix Wright is my favourite character in UMVC3 just because he's the perfect example of translating a character from a non-fighting game into a fighting game... And their playstyle makes it feel like you're still kinda playing the source game. Yeah, characters like Zero, Dante and Vergil still feel like they stepped out of their home games with minimal changes to their movesets, but Phoenix Wright just takes it to a whole new level. Also, he's the most unique take on a stance character I've ever seen, even if that's mostly just from centering around both a stance *AND* an Install.
@@victormiranda4664 unironically, also one of my top 5 favorites from the series. So my top 10 favorite Marvel vs Capcom characters in no particular order..... Phoenix Wright Amingo Captain Commando Jin Venom Serve bot Anakaris Frank West Chris Redfield Nemesis
Apparently we almost got Apollo Justice as a DLC character in MvC Infinite, but they cancelled the 2nd wave of DLC (which would've also included Asura from Asura's Wrath, and Ant Man, who might have made for an interesting gimmick character) due to the game's issues. I know it wasn't exactly well-received, but I'm still sad we didn't get to see Ace Attorney in a fighting game again.
As someone who appreciates the genre but isn’t a dedicated player, I will always be fascinated by how the FGC sees fighting games. To you guys, these are pretty much dynamic puzzles!
Your talk about losing individuality is something I've believed for a while. It's why I'm strongly against common sentiments like giving Videl a normal push block or giving Arthur in UMVC3 a normal dash. Them having weird eccentricities gives them personality.
eccentricities can exist without being at the cost of the character’s performance. Videl’s spot dodge is almost universally held to be a detriment to her character’s performance, the reason being that there’s little to get her out of trouble directly after the dodge. Potemkin in guilty gear has no forward dash and no air dash; he’s HIGHLY immobile, but he has tools that more than make up for not having these basic functions. granted it would be fucking weird if videl of all characters pushblocked a whole ass spirit bomb, so i get where you’re coming from.
@@logandunlap9156 What I've realized about Guilty Gear is that it's system mechanics basically exist to give the freedom of a team fighter in a 1-on-1 game. Roman Cancels basically turn certain moves into your own assists, both in terms of neutral or combo extension, and the variety of defense options means that while character counters have an easier time, it's very possible to survive your worst matchups. It's pretty interesting that despite the intense character variety, it's not like any character is considered truly unviable competitively.
Its also fun when 2 characters that are connected in lore directly cover eachothers weaknesses. In BBTag I use Yang/Blake. At the time I started I wasn't that in to fighting games, I just bought the game for RWBY and since they were my 2 favourites on the roster (Arksys please add Team JNPR) and that they are partners in the series, (+Blake having a Ren costume) I was attracted to them. What I found was Yang had good rushdown but pitiful range meanwhile Blake was an amazing Zoner especially for the worst character to fight as Yang in the entire game, Tager
The aspect of team-composition in team fighting games is actually why I have such an affinity for them. It helps that I cut my teeth properly on fighting games playing games like King of Fighters 98 and XIII and Marvel vs Capcom 2 & 3, but there is a magic to the mentality that goes into making a team composition that is interesting. I particularly like the way King of Fighters does teams, because without tag-ins, the order of characters suddenly becomes really important. Picking your order of characters becomes a rock, paper, scissors game all it's own, as the opponent could potentially counter-pick your first character to try and cut off momentum. Then you have to consider how resource-dependent characters are, as you generally want that kind of character as an anchor and you'll at least wanna consider having someone not too meter-dependent on the front.
And i'm just like "Iori has a fireball, a combo starting command grab, invincible reversals, an air normal for crossups and fast backdashes, an overhead and standing low mixup to start combos. Roles were always mushy.Sol Badguy too.
For real tho, it kinda sucks that every couple years an nrs game becomes outdated. Injustice 2 is fun as all hell, but its a shame that no one makes content for it anymore. Just look at street fighter, there every numbered game has an active community. I know ppl have problems with mk gore but i swear to god there will be a milion more ppl playing nrs games if their shelf life was longer
Bro hands down i justice 2 with team battles would have been the most over the top fun shit ever. I love the injustice combo systen because you could punish hard and combo into everything. Mk11 is so slow feeling even tekken is faster for me personally i can only play duck duck grab for so long half the damn cast in mk11 you block low and crouch punch and have priority like why is that even viable ffs
@@Morrigan101 i personally find fighterz more fun but MvCI is also really fun and it makes me happy that it has its community has started to grow because it totally deserves a big following
Being able to keep half or 2/3 of your team and trying out one new character at a time is also a huge factor in making team games easy to stick to once you get into them. You get to have a nice mix of novelty and familiarity every time you want to.
I think one important aspect of unique characters that's worth mentioning is that you can give characters tools to cover bad matchups that instead strengthen their identity. Take Potemkin from Guilty Gear, for example, and particularly +R (as Strive has changed the tools quite a bit). Potemkin has a full suite of tools to deal with both zoning and runaway that are both powerful, but specific, which is very fitting for an archetype as lopsided as a grappler.
0:14 Great video, but I got one nitpick. Just because a character can do something, doesn’t mean they’re good at it. Guile can rush down, but no one would ever call him a rushdown character for obvious reasons. In the opposite way, Wolverine could try playing at full screen using assists but basically everyone agrees he’s rushdown.
I feel like Blazblue cross tag battle actually also fits really well as an example of a team game and archetypes! if you like anime fighters and haven't tried it you should give it a try!
As someone who plays the game all the time to this day, the game is shit and that’s why we love it. It’s wacky, it’s janky, it’s fanservice. It’s also one of my favorite games.
Seeing a match where both opponents used, and somehow blocked, Cross Combo mechanic at EVO was one of the best things I saw, and made me realise how stupidly fun tag games are when they create gameplay gimmicks based on the team (regardless of balance)
Street Fighter had such beautiful art styles in the past. The sprites in the alpha series and third strike are gorgeous, and I loved the thick lines in SF4. Compared to them, SFV looks a little bit samey. Hopefully, they'll have a nice art style again in SF6. 4:06 can't agree more, if characters can solve their bad match-ups with ease thanks to specifically created tools, part of their character is lost. Even part of the very essence of fighting games is lost. It's not fun to have only strong traits. I play Ibuki in 3s, and it's very stressing to pressure with her due to her low life, but when you hit a combo and successfully get your opponent in a mix-up, my god, the thrill of having walked the line and succeeding. Without weaknesses, we would value our strengths less, and our improvements and achievements would mean less as well. Great video as always!
I think what you said early in the video about overcoming your character's weakness was the most resonating idea. The rest you go on to say feels like what devolpers are trying to do without adding teams. The best case scenario to me would be having characters you can play and understanding their flaws and overcoming.
Great video, the same can easily be said for the underexplored metagames of Melee/Project M Doubles and other Smash games. So many fun character and player combos to be seen.
While I respect your view on characters, I really don't think what Capcom have done to street fighters over the years is homogenizing them, and I also wouldn't make it out to be some kind of industry-wide trend. With each game the offensive options of different characters needs to evolve, or you may as well have not made a new fighting game. When a new game comes out people wanna see the new tech their characters have gotten, and for Geif invincible moves make him stronger in your face as well as being able to stop fireballs. These moves benefit him in his primary game-plan. There are still characters like Mika who have to try really hard to get in, and that's good too, but Geif has turned into a s character who walls his way in, which is still pretty unique. You can argue Guile has gotten more generic over time but that's also because since street fighter 2, basically every game has had weaker fireball options, and they've had to give something back to guile whilst making his sonic booms less amazing. I agree the strength of match-ups has been lessened over the years, but back in the day it was more common to see top tiers having 8-2 or 7-3 matchups rather than 6-4s or 5.5-4.5s. It's not about making characters more bland, it's about showing off player skill versus completely folding to an 2-8 match-up.
I very much agree. Match-ups can still be hard, gief still struggles to get in against characters that are good at keeping him out. He just has tools now that change how he can get in. Like you said, its just about making 8-2 match-ups not be 8-2 anymore, which isn't really homogenizing the entire cast.
Your talk of characters becoming too homogenized is right on point, and one of the reasons I no longer play Tekken 7. With each new patch they balance by just giving characters tools that they didn't have before to round them out, reducing individuality. Take Marduk, whose whole shtick is that he's a powerful grappler with ridiculous damage on his combos, with the offset being that his punishment tools are weak. His standing 10f is okay and has throw setups, but his 13f has short range and limited setups and his WS punishment is the worst in the entire game. And that's fine! It didn't stop him from being a force to be reckoned with. But what did Namco do? They gave him a really strong 12f punisher that can also be used from WS. Weakness averted. Or what about Kazuya, who was made as a character that had amazing tools but required difficult and consistent execution to play? Watching top players perfect their electric punishes and pull off insane combos was always hype. So what happened? He was gifted with easy mode combos that were more effective than the difficult combos and a 15f punisher with an easy follow up.
I've been loving your videos, and I've been binge-watching. I love how much love SFxT gets on this channel, too. It's likely one of my favorite fighting games, despite its rough launch and reputation
I feel like you can get a similar effect outside of tag games by including grooves/moons, allowing characters to tailor their "universal" mechanics to their character, or with non playable strikers. Alternatively you can do whatever Arcana Heart's system is, choosing a preset that gives you extra special moves and passive buffs.
This extends to KOF too in some level. Were we have the "Control (1st)-Battery(2nd)-Anchor(3rd)" composition. If you check any KOF meta, there are characters that probably wouldn't stand in a 1x1 game but are widely used as Control, because you don really expect "much" out of then. This way Kof players can have the luxury of changing their control characters with some freedom, witch is nice. I always pick control at random, for example. (This is more true to kof13 and 14 however)
I love the game actually. Kof XI is really special and few other team games compare. You still have the 1x1 that is classic to Kof, considering that tagging is quite slow and does not regenerate health. So you don't "gain" attributes from your team members like you do in SFxTekken during defense. You do gain the ability to counter pick during match, and of course, perform combos with some flexibility between members and be safe on guard by tagging, witch keeps the game fresh even after years, in my opinion.
Great video, really enjoyed it. Another way this can sometimes come up is in counterpicking within a ft2/ft3 etc. Since the winner is character locked this can be an opportunity to turn losing the first game into an advantage by counterpicking.
I did not know what I was expecting for what you looked like, but I did not expect you to look like that. I was already prepared to put a ring on that finger just based on your voice, but I'm glad what's attached to it looks the way it does. Hello!
FACTS. I hate most team game's assist system. Simply because of the fact you are at such an extreme disadvantage for not playing meta and the fact your favorite characters may never work together. Team games feel like they limit you to like 5 presets because most combinations are unviable.
@@Freefork dbfz sorta changes that imo, most characters have a decent assist, and if they dont you can play them on point, so you barely have to use their awful assist. therefore you can usually have a good team with whoever you want!
@@deepwebwhirlpool (and Leith) True, but DBFZ makes all the assist feel way to samey. Kinda wish development time was spent on something else other than Beam Assists... LOL.
stuff like this is why skullgirls is my favorite fighter. matches can be as balanced or tilted as you want depending on who you pick on your team, or whether you even have a team at all
@@TheoryFighter on the off-chance you read this and can look past the eye-wateringly godawful band name then "fvneral fvkk" did an album called "carnal confessions" and it may just be the dopest doom metal release known to man within years.
The game is still like a 1v1 game. There’s no tag system unless we’re talking specific titles in the franchise like KOF XI, which is one of the most godtier titles imo.
There's very little interplay between your characters in KOF. Meter management is literally the only effect one character can have on another. It completely lacks the character interplay that he's talking about in this video.
This was an awesome video! Though, I don't think calling "Phoenix" pre-transformation an "average" character is fair. I mean, base Phoenix only has like, 300k HP in a game where the average is somewhere around 900k-1m. She's straight-up the worst character in the game which is why her team composition matters even more.
I think a lot of the reason why characters are getting less focused to their archetypes is also the shifting ideology of the design of fighting games. As people are vying for more spectator-friendly games, we're seeing a lot of design choices made that encourage playing offensively and giving everyone more combos since people like to see a slugfest. Though what I can tell some of these changes come in subtle ways. Like say for instance the change that Dhalsim got to Yoga Fire in SFV - it combines while also omitting his old full-screen fireball that was heavily for making his zoning safer as well as his Yoga Blast anti-air and combines them into a tool that is made more for mixups to nudge Dhalsim if only a little bit closer to opponents. At least, that's the impression I get from some of those sort of design decisions.
Yeah Sim is more of a rangy rushdown char in SFV than in SF4. But thing is he doesn't get to play the game as well as most of the cast. SF4 Sim is more a legacy style gameplay but you can see blueprints for match-ups that favor him (Ryu, Gief) and even find outplay in somewhat unfavorable ones. Then u go back to SF A3 (alpha 3) and Sim was king in that game though in a weird way since a bigger part of the game is finding out how to work the grooves/Custom Combos for your offense. However he was def a rushdown anime style char in a game that didn't have much to defend against that.
This is one of the problems I think plagues Mortal Kombat 11. All characters kinda play the same in that game, there's no variety, no archetypes. The game revolves so heavily around the strike/throw mixup that even the hard zoning characters have to rely on staggers eventually.
Is there any examples of 1v1 games having the ability to switch archetypes mid-match? I know about stuff like SFV Zeku and Ultimate Hero, but are there any more examples from more niche fighting games? I felt this way is a much more simplistic way of doing the Team composition to counter weakness concept applied to 1v1s.
@@jpedroalm Yeah. Otane could become Super Otane after grabbing someone. Really cool but it sucks if you mained a transformation character like Poochy as you can't play who you want until you grab.
Man, from the title I thought you were going to talk about Super Smash Bros Melee’s doubles. I wish more games had 2v2 player modes. It’s another example of where bad characters can thrive if they have a teammate that overcomes their issues.
I use to consider myself a casual fgc member since I mainly played smash competitively for nearly a decade. I for the life of me COULD NOT understand team based games. It was very foreign environment to me so I naturally gravitated towards traditional fighters. Now, that I’m a bit more mature and rooted in my frequent analysis of game study, team comp makes more sense. It also helps that the smash series traditionally has team modes which gives me a taste of these concepts. I guess my point here is this video visually breaks down so well that I feel like my fgc 3rd eye is activating 😂. I LOVE how you explained these concepts. Bless man. This makes me want to give team games another go. ☺️
I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, because this video is fantastic, and easily one of your most interesting and informative. The music used in the background is incredibly distracting, and the lack of contrast in tone makes your narration feel monotone, even when it really isn't. You have a deeper voice, so perhaps consider using higher pitched music? or at the least change the music when the topic shifts? It's my hope that this is taken in completely good faith, but listening to 13 minutes of the same backing track becomes grating after about. two.
Yo fr tho that utilisation of Cross Assault sounds sick as shit. Being able to immediately grab when your opponent is blocking your rapid attacks sounds broken and I love it
As a fighting game noobie, team fighters allways seemed very intimidating, even more so than traditional ones. The idea of learning multiple characters well seemed impossible, but now with progect L and videos like this sparking my interest i might give them a try!
usf4 x tekken is the dream. I swear the first ever gameplay they showed of sfxt was just a modded sf4 engine with the camera pushed back, if only thats what we got :(
ay man, new sub and love your videos, but you gotta look into using a de-esser on your audio. there's almost certainly an easy function for it in whatever editor you use (ive previously used it in adobe audition, most of the time you just click a button). those S whistles come through real strong on my laptop speakers
MVCI had similar concepts, just on the marvel level of craziness, but also the examples of "putting two overly cracked characters together makes something with 0 counter play", like doing invincible comboing Haggar lariat on block and having Dante 50/50 you 2 or 3 times inside of it, or the Dormammu carpet ... or I guess just any dumb move with pre-nerf Dante. Hopefully 2KXO creates a tag game that will have even a year of life in the FGC.
Gg ac plus R had something that isn’t often mentioned but had gg mode ggx mode and ac mode thus helps alpha three had same thing style and meter differences thus helps balance out weakness same with cap vs SNK two it had different t meter and other things that go along with it. Other ways to balance out weaknesses
am i the only person who gets annoyed when gimmick characters exist, but they are only ever used in a certain team composition making them practically feel like just a cheese strat? Say Frank and Dante from umvc3, he is 9 times out of 10 used with him meaning you see them together every match solely to land the team super
Heihachi with mixups and bad movement is an abomination. A 2d Heihachi would have broken fast and advantageous overheads, a standing plus on block launcher with good range, no good lows or throws, and a walk speed to die for. Rushdown with no mixups but can force you into the corner like a bulldozer.
I was wondering if this vid was gonna be about unique archetypes in team games, like "anchors" and "batteries", and was pleased to see that it isn't. Is there some room for discussion about KoF here? Order matters but you don't have the direct ability to cover each others' weaknesses.
I get the usefulness of teams, but I've yet to see a game who handled team mechanics in a nice way. From support summons, to character swapping, it's always awkward and clunky. Which fighting games are known to be in the first place lol
Turning Chun into a grappler using cross assault is STUPID
I love it
Chungief for life!
Same, I was actually surprised at seeing that chun-li is actually a grappler
The best part is that it works with EVERYONE.
As long as they are unique why not give people lots of diffrent tooos for diffrent things as long as you can keep the game fun and unique
"Is this an excuse to talk about how good is SFxT?" yes, but actually yes
@Socialists, Communists and Nationalists are low IQ Sadly, Not Rollback, so not great :(
Lol I've been playing on ps vita
@Socialists, Communists and Nationalists are low IQ Idk about PC but I still play on PS3...
Marvel 2 and cvs2 are better
This made me want to play SFxT. I let the negative press on release prevent me from playing the game and I ended up just sticking to Tekken.
Why wouldn't want a team of phoenix wright, hulk, and viewtiful joe. Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series.
And knuckles
@@LxstMxmxry New Funky Mode & Tom & Jerry, Deluxe edition,
@@LunaMinuna electric boogaloo
@@LxstMxmxry + Bowsers fury
@@iseegreen5297 game of the year edition
Phoenix Wright is one of if not the greatest fighting game characters ever put to conception!
I agree 100%
Phoenix Wright is my favourite character in UMVC3 just because he's the perfect example of translating a character from a non-fighting game into a fighting game... And their playstyle makes it feel like you're still kinda playing the source game.
Yeah, characters like Zero, Dante and Vergil still feel like they stepped out of their home games with minimal changes to their movesets, but Phoenix Wright just takes it to a whole new level.
Also, he's the most unique take on a stance character I've ever seen, even if that's mostly just from centering around both a stance *AND* an Install.
Amingo
@@victormiranda4664 unironically, also one of my top 5 favorites from the series. So my top 10 favorite Marvel vs Capcom characters in no particular order.....
Phoenix Wright
Amingo
Captain Commando
Jin
Venom
Serve bot
Anakaris
Frank West
Chris Redfield
Nemesis
Apparently we almost got Apollo Justice as a DLC character in MvC Infinite, but they cancelled the 2nd wave of DLC (which would've also included Asura from Asura's Wrath, and Ant Man, who might have made for an interesting gimmick character) due to the game's issues. I know it wasn't exactly well-received, but I'm still sad we didn't get to see Ace Attorney in a fighting game again.
i appreciate the variety of ways you come up with to secretly evangelize cross tekken
As someone who appreciates the genre but isn’t a dedicated player, I will always be fascinated by how the FGC sees fighting games. To you guys, these are pretty much dynamic puzzles!
Your talk about losing individuality is something I've believed for a while. It's why I'm strongly against common sentiments like giving Videl a normal push block or giving Arthur in UMVC3 a normal dash. Them having weird eccentricities gives them personality.
eccentricities can exist without being at the cost of the character’s performance. Videl’s spot dodge is almost universally held to be a detriment to her character’s performance, the reason being that there’s little to get her out of trouble directly after the dodge. Potemkin in guilty gear has no forward dash and no air dash; he’s HIGHLY immobile, but he has tools that more than make up for not having these basic functions. granted it would be fucking weird if videl of all characters pushblocked a whole ass spirit bomb, so i get where you’re coming from.
@@logandunlap9156 What I've realized about Guilty Gear is that it's system mechanics basically exist to give the freedom of a team fighter in a 1-on-1 game. Roman Cancels basically turn certain moves into your own assists, both in terms of neutral or combo extension, and the variety of defense options means that while character counters have an easier time, it's very possible to survive your worst matchups. It's pretty interesting that despite the intense character variety, it's not like any character is considered truly unviable competitively.
@@logandunlap9156 You know, Videl might be able to push block a spirit bomb. If you're not evil, it's possible. 4 year old Gohan did it
@@KaitouKaijuisn't the requirement to create a spirit bomb to be pure?
@@chillaxboi2109 yeah, which Videl might be. What he’s saying is that deflecting a Spirit Bomb isn’t a matter of strength.
Its also fun when 2 characters that are connected in lore directly cover eachothers weaknesses. In BBTag I use Yang/Blake. At the time I started I wasn't that in to fighting games, I just bought the game for RWBY and since they were my 2 favourites on the roster (Arksys please add Team JNPR) and that they are partners in the series, (+Blake having a Ren costume) I was attracted to them. What I found was Yang had good rushdown but pitiful range meanwhile Blake was an amazing Zoner especially for the worst character to fight as Yang in the entire game, Tager
The aspect of team-composition in team fighting games is actually why I have such an affinity for them. It helps that I cut my teeth properly on fighting games playing games like King of Fighters 98 and XIII and Marvel vs Capcom 2 & 3, but there is a magic to the mentality that goes into making a team composition that is interesting. I particularly like the way King of Fighters does teams, because without tag-ins, the order of characters suddenly becomes really important. Picking your order of characters becomes a rock, paper, scissors game all it's own, as the opponent could potentially counter-pick your first character to try and cut off momentum. Then you have to consider how resource-dependent characters are, as you generally want that kind of character as an anchor and you'll at least wanna consider having someone not too meter-dependent on the front.
Team fighting games is as close to a balanced fighting as we’ll ever get
the funny thing is that mvc2 and mvc3 are really unbalanced and that's their charm
KOF when your teammates could jump in
(Never learned HOW though XD)
@@Ramsey276one stuff like this is why KOF 11 deserves a re release
@@alanzapreservationtheythem2861 YESS!
DIY balancing
And i'm just like "Iori has a fireball, a combo starting command grab, invincible reversals, an air normal for crossups and fast backdashes, an overhead and standing low mixup to start combos. Roles were always mushy.Sol Badguy too.
Terry is in mind the epitome of this as he has everything in his kit you could want but rising tackle is the one charge input
YOU DIDNT CLOSE YOUR " "
I wish mortal kombat would do a team fighting game, tag team mode was the most fun in mk9
im only praying NRS will bring bane into injustice 3 cause 2 is my first fighting game ever and i only know how to play a mid level bane
Mortal Alliances
For real tho, it kinda sucks that every couple years an nrs game becomes outdated. Injustice 2 is fun as all hell, but its a shame that no one makes content for it anymore. Just look at street fighter, there every numbered game has an active community. I know ppl have problems with mk gore but i swear to god there will be a milion more ppl playing nrs games if their shelf life was longer
Bro hands down i justice 2 with team battles would have been the most over the top fun shit ever. I love the injustice combo systen because you could punish hard and combo into everything. Mk11 is so slow feeling even tekken is faster for me personally i can only play duck duck grab for so long half the damn cast in mk11 you block low and crouch punch and have priority like why is that even viable ffs
MK1 looks pretty promising so you may get your wish
Meanwhile there is dbfz where everyone does everything
Maybe except effective zoning.
@@gansmith Frieza: *cries in corner*
and thats why MVCI has better gameplay than Fighterz
@@Morrigan101 I dunno man, Fighterz is pretty hype.
@@Morrigan101 i personally find fighterz more fun but MvCI is also really fun and it makes me happy that it has its community has started to grow because it totally deserves a big following
Being able to keep half or 2/3 of your team and trying out one new character at a time is also a huge factor in making team games easy to stick to once you get into them. You get to have a nice mix of novelty and familiarity every time you want to.
I think one important aspect of unique characters that's worth mentioning is that you can give characters tools to cover bad matchups that instead strengthen their identity. Take Potemkin from Guilty Gear, for example, and particularly +R (as Strive has changed the tools quite a bit). Potemkin has a full suite of tools to deal with both zoning and runaway that are both powerful, but specific, which is very fitting for an archetype as lopsided as a grappler.
You should check out the video Leon Massey did as part of the collab. He talked about that.
0:14 Great video, but I got one nitpick. Just because a character can do something, doesn’t mean they’re good at it. Guile can rush down, but no one would ever call him a rushdown character for obvious reasons. In the opposite way, Wolverine could try playing at full screen using assists but basically everyone agrees he’s rushdown.
I feel like Blazblue cross tag battle actually also fits really well as an example of a team game and archetypes! if you like anime fighters and haven't tried it you should give it a try!
I want to play just because I like RWBY, bought it at launch then realized my crappy laptop wouldn't run it faster than 20 fps.
As someone who plays the game all the time to this day, the game is shit and that’s why we love it. It’s wacky, it’s janky, it’s fanservice. It’s also one of my favorite games.
@@TheBelovedBun peak Kusoge and we love it
@@jouheikisaragi6075 Fuck yeah.
Seeing a match where both opponents used, and somehow blocked, Cross Combo mechanic at EVO was one of the best things I saw, and made me realise how stupidly fun tag games are when they create gameplay gimmicks based on the team (regardless of balance)
This is 2/3 in this collab effort. I love when channels I really like make a group effort like this
Street Fighter had such beautiful art styles in the past. The sprites in the alpha series and third strike are gorgeous, and I loved the thick lines in SF4. Compared to them, SFV looks a little bit samey. Hopefully, they'll have a nice art style again in SF6.
4:06 can't agree more, if characters can solve their bad match-ups with ease thanks to specifically created tools, part of their character is lost. Even part of the very essence of fighting games is lost. It's not fun to have only strong traits. I play Ibuki in 3s, and it's very stressing to pressure with her due to her low life, but when you hit a combo and successfully get your opponent in a mix-up, my god, the thrill of having walked the line and succeeding. Without weaknesses, we would value our strengths less, and our improvements and achievements would mean less as well.
Great video as always!
SFV is beautiful. You don't even know how to justify your opinion.
Theory Fighter and Leon Massey uploading at the same time...
The day is saved :)
Edit: Very nice collab
Novriltaki as well.
@@theredcomet844 *Novriltataki
Love the rhythm in how you showed zangief's options at 2:21, totally got me hooked
I think what you said early in the video about overcoming your character's weakness was the most resonating idea. The rest you go on to say feels like what devolpers are trying to do without adding teams. The best case scenario to me would be having characters you can play and understanding their flaws and overcoming.
Great video, the same can easily be said for the underexplored metagames of Melee/Project M Doubles and other Smash games. So many fun character and player combos to be seen.
This video is godlike. I always enjoy videos that focus on stuff like characters kits and their combat.
While I respect your view on characters, I really don't think what Capcom have done to street fighters over the years is homogenizing them, and I also wouldn't make it out to be some kind of industry-wide trend. With each game the offensive options of different characters needs to evolve, or you may as well have not made a new fighting game. When a new game comes out people wanna see the new tech their characters have gotten, and for Geif invincible moves make him stronger in your face as well as being able to stop fireballs. These moves benefit him in his primary game-plan. There are still characters like Mika who have to try really hard to get in, and that's good too, but Geif has turned into a s character who walls his way in, which is still pretty unique.
You can argue Guile has gotten more generic over time but that's also because since street fighter 2, basically every game has had weaker fireball options, and they've had to give something back to guile whilst making his sonic booms less amazing. I agree the strength of match-ups has been lessened over the years, but back in the day it was more common to see top tiers having 8-2 or 7-3 matchups rather than 6-4s or 5.5-4.5s. It's not about making characters more bland, it's about showing off player skill versus completely folding to an 2-8 match-up.
I very much agree. Match-ups can still be hard, gief still struggles to get in against characters that are good at keeping him out. He just has tools now that change how he can get in. Like you said, its just about making 8-2 match-ups not be 8-2 anymore, which isn't really homogenizing the entire cast.
Your talk of characters becoming too homogenized is right on point, and one of the reasons I no longer play Tekken 7. With each new patch they balance by just giving characters tools that they didn't have before to round them out, reducing individuality.
Take Marduk, whose whole shtick is that he's a powerful grappler with ridiculous damage on his combos, with the offset being that his punishment tools are weak. His standing 10f is okay and has throw setups, but his 13f has short range and limited setups and his WS punishment is the worst in the entire game. And that's fine! It didn't stop him from being a force to be reckoned with. But what did Namco do? They gave him a really strong 12f punisher that can also be used from WS. Weakness averted.
Or what about Kazuya, who was made as a character that had amazing tools but required difficult and consistent execution to play? Watching top players perfect their electric punishes and pull off insane combos was always hype. So what happened? He was gifted with easy mode combos that were more effective than the difficult combos and a 15f punisher with an easy follow up.
Agree with your points. I do feel that Capcom does balancing pretty well without reducing individuality too much
Just wanted to say I really appreciate the background music you use! Who knew doom and stoner metal goes so well with fighting game?
I've been loving your videos, and I've been binge-watching. I love how much love SFxT gets on this channel, too. It's likely one of my favorite fighting games, despite its rough launch and reputation
I love it when people find new ways to use characters. It breathes life into a game. It's one of the reasons melee has been along for so long.
Gimmick characters > literally everything else
I feel like you can get a similar effect outside of tag games by including grooves/moons, allowing characters to tailor their "universal" mechanics to their character, or with non playable strikers. Alternatively you can do whatever Arcana Heart's system is, choosing a preset that gives you extra special moves and passive buffs.
This extends to KOF too in some level. Were we have the "Control (1st)-Battery(2nd)-Anchor(3rd)" composition. If you check any KOF meta, there are characters that probably wouldn't stand in a 1x1 game but are widely used as Control, because you don really expect "much" out of then.
This way Kof players can have the luxury of changing their control characters with some freedom, witch is nice. I always pick control at random, for example.
(This is more true to kof13 and 14 however)
I love the game actually. Kof XI is really special and few other team games compare.
You still have the 1x1 that is classic to Kof, considering that tagging is quite slow and does not regenerate health. So you don't "gain" attributes from your team members like you do in SFxTekken during defense.
You do gain the ability to counter pick during match, and of course, perform combos with some flexibility between members and be safe on guard by tagging, witch keeps the game fresh even after years, in my opinion.
Dude I love how you keep your hype going the whole time. Subscribed. I need all the fighting games. 🧡
Great video, really enjoyed it. Another way this can sometimes come up is in counterpicking within a ft2/ft3 etc. Since the winner is character locked this can be an opportunity to turn losing the first game into an advantage by counterpicking.
I did not know what I was expecting for what you looked like, but I did not expect you to look like that. I was already prepared to put a ring on that finger just based on your voice, but I'm glad what's attached to it looks the way it does.
Hello!
Ultra sfxt would be a dream come true x_x
I wish that he made a video on the King Of Fighters series
Same
Same.
Yeah I bet you do wish that RUGAL
Team based fighting games with assists always turn me off a bit, since there's a good chance my three favorite characters just don't work on a team :(
FACTS. I hate most team game's assist system. Simply because of the fact you are at such an extreme disadvantage for not playing meta and the fact your favorite characters may never work together. Team games feel like they limit you to like 5 presets because most combinations are unviable.
@@Freefork dbfz sorta changes that imo, most characters have a decent assist, and if they dont you can play them on point, so you barely have to use their awful assist. therefore you can usually have a good team with whoever you want!
Also hate that you have to learn so many characters too
@@deepwebwhirlpool (and Leith) True, but DBFZ makes all the assist feel way to samey. Kinda wish development time was spent on something else other than Beam Assists... LOL.
@@Freefork most assist these days arent beam assists but yeah i get where you're coming from
Nice, I've been wanting to see a video that analyzed MvC characters.
“Each game gives Zangied new tools against fireballs”
SFV: takes away his Green Glove
And gives him 3 more tools
@@TheoryFighter Absolutely...but we all miss the loyal Green Glove. It's just so good
(and I was shocked it was not his V-skill 2)
stuff like this is why skullgirls is my favorite fighter. matches can be as balanced or tilted as you want depending on who you pick on your team, or whether you even have a team at all
Your taste in music is awesome. What are your favorite doom/stoner metal bands? Trying to find some new ones
Electric wizard are the obvious S tier. Along with them, Bongripper, Windhand, Bongzilla and Thou are amazing.
@@TheoryFighter sick I haven't heard of a couple of these and will check em out.
@@TheoryFighter Windhand rules.
@@TheoryFighter on the off-chance you read this and can look past the eye-wateringly godawful band name then "fvneral fvkk" did an album called "carnal confessions" and it may just be the dopest doom metal release known to man within years.
I'll take a look :)
Never knew cross assault was instant startup. That shit is brilliant.
Video: Why characters in team fighting games are interesting
Comments: mvc & usf4xtk
*Sad King of Fighters noises*
Hah!
Shameful
XD
The game is still like a 1v1 game. There’s no tag system unless we’re talking specific titles in the franchise like KOF XI, which is one of the most godtier titles imo.
There's very little interplay between your characters in KOF. Meter management is literally the only effect one character can have on another. It completely lacks the character interplay that he's talking about in this video.
@@slithermayne2218 wait
I think there TWO KOF games with a tag system, so it would apply to those
(BTW, I replied to the wring comment earlier )
Q_q
@@Ramsey276one Yeah that's true, there a couple that do, but iirc it's generally not received very well, from what I've seen
It also just lets you have more characters. Who doesn’t love seeing more characters?
Wait cross assault is a pause button that gives you meter after and lets you super right after? How tf is it underused that sounds great
Meter hoarding??
Doesn't give you meter but it keeps what you had if i recall correctly
Character super costs 2/3
Team super costs 3/3
Skullgirls had the team system in place to make up for characters weaknesses. Though i like its optional
sfxt is such a neat game, i never even knew about that mechanic but its so cool that you can just slap a super on your point character with it lmao
This was an awesome video! Though, I don't think calling "Phoenix" pre-transformation an "average" character is fair. I mean, base Phoenix only has like, 300k HP in a game where the average is somewhere around 900k-1m. She's straight-up the worst character in the game which is why her team composition matters even more.
I think a lot of the reason why characters are getting less focused to their archetypes is also the shifting ideology of the design of fighting games. As people are vying for more spectator-friendly games, we're seeing a lot of design choices made that encourage playing offensively and giving everyone more combos since people like to see a slugfest. Though what I can tell some of these changes come in subtle ways. Like say for instance the change that Dhalsim got to Yoga Fire in SFV - it combines while also omitting his old full-screen fireball that was heavily for making his zoning safer as well as his Yoga Blast anti-air and combines them into a tool that is made more for mixups to nudge Dhalsim if only a little bit closer to opponents. At least, that's the impression I get from some of those sort of design decisions.
Yeah Sim is more of a rangy rushdown char in SFV than in SF4. But thing is he doesn't get to play the game as well as most of the cast. SF4 Sim is more a legacy style gameplay but you can see blueprints for match-ups that favor him (Ryu, Gief) and even find outplay in somewhat unfavorable ones. Then u go back to SF A3 (alpha 3) and Sim was king in that game though in a weird way since a bigger part of the game is finding out how to work the grooves/Custom Combos for your offense. However he was def a rushdown anime style char in a game that didn't have much to defend against that.
This is one of the problems I think plagues Mortal Kombat 11. All characters kinda play the same in that game, there's no variety, no archetypes. The game revolves so heavily around the strike/throw mixup that even the hard zoning characters have to rely on staggers eventually.
2:40 caught you teabagging during practice.
RyanLV's team single handedly made me want to play UMVC3 just by how cool it looks (that and Cloud805 timing out with Dante's infinite)
8:23 bruh, I got grabbed by that crossover setup and I don't even play this game.
Rival Schools team ups are amazing some unique team moves
Is there any examples of 1v1 games having the ability to switch archetypes mid-match? I know about stuff like SFV Zeku and Ultimate Hero, but are there any more examples from more niche fighting games? I felt this way is a much more simplistic way of doing the Team composition to counter weakness concept applied to 1v1s.
There's an old franchise called Power Instinct where some characters can transform mid match.
@@jpedroalm Yeah. Otane could become Super Otane after grabbing someone. Really cool but it sucks if you mained a transformation character like Poochy as you can't play who you want until you grab.
Dude, you need to cover BFTG, I picked it up recently and it is so simple yet so amazing
Man, from the title I thought you were going to talk about Super Smash Bros Melee’s doubles.
I wish more games had 2v2 player modes. It’s another example of where bad characters can thrive if they have a teammate that overcomes their issues.
Hey, nice to see your face, man! Reminded me of my friends. Also, great video! Loving to watch those video essays about fgc growing.
Wow, this video was pretty interesting, I really liked this explanation about team games
I wish zangief got green hand back.
Dang I remember using Dhalism,Spiderman,Strider in Marvel vs capcom 2 it was fun
I use to consider myself a casual fgc member since I mainly played smash competitively for nearly a decade. I for the life of me COULD NOT understand team based games.
It was very foreign environment to me so I naturally gravitated towards traditional fighters.
Now, that I’m a bit more mature and rooted in my frequent analysis of game study, team comp makes more sense. It also helps that the smash series traditionally has team modes which gives me a taste of these concepts.
I guess my point here is this video visually breaks down so well that I feel like my fgc 3rd eye is activating 😂. I LOVE how you explained these concepts. Bless man. This makes me want to give team games another go. ☺️
Never had thought about this perspective, amazing video.
Does kof count as a team game? I mean you don't tag in but it is 3 characters vs 3 characters and order tends to matter.
11:30 Morrigan Fanservice Strats!
2P: WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!
Morrigan: >;)
I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, because this video is fantastic, and easily one of your most interesting and informative. The music used in the background is incredibly distracting, and the lack of contrast in tone makes your narration feel monotone, even when it really isn't.
You have a deeper voice, so perhaps consider using higher pitched music? or at the least change the music when the topic shifts?
It's my hope that this is taken in completely good faith, but listening to 13 minutes of the same backing track becomes grating after about. two.
Personally, I like this style.
Honestly a great video about the strengths of team games I like what it does for mvci as well!
Kliff and ABA is the kinda of stuff I don't want FGC to abandon from fear seeing someone nail it within their conditions s just beautiful
7:26 Chun-Li is NOT playing fair with where that kick connected...
13:10 - hey it's my first time seeing your face! Dig the nose piercing
Yo fr tho that utilisation of Cross Assault sounds sick as shit. Being able to immediately grab when your opponent is blocking your rapid attacks sounds broken and I love it
Injustice should have played exactly like Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
I like how the combos feel in injustice, so much freedom.
It always puts a smile on my face seeing my boy carnage laying that smackdown!
As a fighting game noobie, team fighters allways seemed very intimidating, even more so than traditional ones. The idea of learning multiple characters well seemed impossible, but now with progect L and videos like this sparking my interest i might give them a try!
usf4 x tekken is the dream. I swear the first ever gameplay they showed of sfxt was just a modded sf4 engine with the camera pushed back, if only thats what we got :(
love the video. For me I typically pick characters I like or like their style. Adapting is the fun part.
King Of Fighters immediately comes to mind (and it's one of my favourite fighting games ever).
Although I haven't played KOF XI yet (I badly wanna try it though), it is a huge improvement from 2003.
ay man, new sub and love your videos, but you gotta look into using a de-esser on your audio. there's almost certainly an easy function for it in whatever editor you use (ive previously used it in adobe audition, most of the time you just click a button). those S whistles come through real strong on my laptop speakers
I knew I recognized Windhand, good to see fighting games and doom metal
I didn't play SFxT much, thank you for taking about it. I didn't know you could do that or how it could be used to punish.
There will always be a trade of between fun gameplay/character uniqueness and balanced gameplay/competitiveness.
MVCI had similar concepts, just on the marvel level of craziness, but also the examples of "putting two overly cracked characters together makes something with 0 counter play", like doing invincible comboing Haggar lariat on block and having Dante 50/50 you 2 or 3 times inside of it, or the Dormammu carpet ... or I guess just any dumb move with pre-nerf Dante. Hopefully 2KXO creates a tag game that will have even a year of life in the FGC.
Gg ac plus R had something that isn’t often mentioned but had gg mode ggx mode and ac mode thus helps alpha three had same thing style and meter differences thus helps balance out weakness same with cap vs SNK two it had different t meter and other things that go along with it. Other ways to balance out weaknesses
am i the only person who gets annoyed when gimmick characters exist, but they are only ever used in a certain team composition making them practically feel like just a cheese strat? Say Frank and Dante from umvc3, he is 9 times out of 10 used with him meaning you see them together every match solely to land the team super
Heihachi with mixups and bad movement is an abomination. A 2d Heihachi would have broken fast and advantageous overheads, a standing plus on block launcher with good range, no good lows or throws, and a walk speed to die for. Rushdown with no mixups but can force you into the corner like a bulldozer.
“You can say to someone with minimal fighting game knowledge and they’ll know what he is.”
Me: … yes.
11:03 - straight up turned into an american from the south when you said "Morgan"
That primeval longsleeve is tight
I was already subbed and really loving the content and then you pop up with a Venom Prison shirt on. Fucking rad 🤘
chun li running away to build meter for the best super in the game, where have i heard this before...
(nice venom prison shirt btw)
This is why I love KOF. 3v3 is so much fun
I was wondering if this vid was gonna be about unique archetypes in team games, like "anchors" and "batteries", and was pleased to see that it isn't. Is there some room for discussion about KoF here? Order matters but you don't have the direct ability to cover each others' weaknesses.
Love the wind hand
my team of blackheart/cammy/tron did a lot of work just by taking advantage of my great assists to support blackheart's oppressive pressure
port when
Lit work theory!! Keep going big man
I get the usefulness of teams, but I've yet to see a game who handled team mechanics in a nice way. From support summons, to character swapping, it's always awkward and clunky. Which fighting games are known to be in the first place lol
In team fighting games the gimmick characters supports are for some reason always good and useful
another great video....and the outro shocked me bc for some reason hearing your voice I always thought you were black LOL. anyways great channel .
Funny...
My son and I recently pick SxT again.
Underrated game, given the controversy. Also the stage selection sucks