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@@isaacsteele7986 basically it can be a backdoor for hackers to access ur PC. Capcom put one on the PCs of Steam users to counteract fight money cheating and whatnot. not worth it.
I remember when SF4 first came out they said one of the reasons none of the new characters had DPs was to move away from invincible reversals being a norm and diversify the characters more. This idea is something that's been on their minds for a very long time.
Now characters are made better than the old ones because of this. That's the reason that most new characters are top tier and old characters that benefit from not being punished for being aggresive.
@@Hillthugsta That' not my problem with sf5. My problem with it is that it feels empty and cheap. Winning doesn't feel satisfying and losing feels cheap and humiliating no matter how good you get. You can lose to "garbage" that would never work in any other game because it's designed that way. Tekken won't make someone standing close to my character a 50/50 or mashing jab dangerous. I literally put it down the other day because I thought about how I shouldn't have to take it as a paying customer.
Every single character that had a meterless dp had their toolkit and frame data designed around it. Kind of. This is why Akuma was a better shotto than both Ryu and Ken is season 2, also they recevied significant nerfs even though Capcom promised they were not going to do that. Truth be told, they kept that promise with season 3, which is why Akuma, Cammy etc are listed still as top tiers in later seasons.
@@bobbyshewan4229 yo is your name a raekwon reference (who was Bobby in the wu)? I started with king years back but play kazuya (highest at genbu) ArMor king, heihachi and yoshi. Just been trying to learn Hank..
The problem with SFV is that they insist on taking away features that people really like in order to serve their vision. I don't think this is a bad thing necessarily, but the game shouldn't have been released as a work in progress. I'm fine with where it is now design-wise, but it feels bad that it started from such a different place and led players on that were expecting different things.
*the problem with every fighting game updates I mean, even in SF2 the difference between each version was significant. I remember people not touching Super Turbo because it doesn't have the BS you could do in Champion Edition
literally every street fighter removes or tweaks core aspects of the previous game's skill or design. people thought 3rd strike parries ruined the game when it came out.
And the majority of people who quit the game were Ryu mains, because they didn't give him anything to compensate for the moveset creep or his loss in power. Ryu was already and always was extremely EX hungry. That's why his most popular movesets across fighting games were always ones that complemented his meter. For example, in SF3:3rd Strike, Ryu's used Shinku over the others specifically BECAUSE he's so meter dependent. Shin Shoryu is an incredible move. But Shinku lets you have a super stock and still have access to EX moves. One of the primary ways that Ryu was able to survive without meter despite average (by design) normals was that he had an invincible Shoryuken. And when you look at Ryu's placing in SF5, it makes a lot of sense. I just wish they kept Ryu's invicible Shoryuken, and instead fixed the guard crush interaction in that specific case. His other options, like the horrid version of parry that they gave him, just absolutely blows.
That's true, but if we're talking 3rd Strike, that's a game where Ryu could be played in a totally different way if we consider Denjin. Denjin, even tho' it needs a lotta skill to setup, is a really strong super, it's worth it even if Ryu wouldn't have access to a lot of EX moves, because one Denjin opportunity could mean the round for Ryu. You could say Denjin is the optimal way of playing Ryu in 3S, just watch Kuni and Vanao, the 2 best Ryu players and you'll see, that said, Shinkuu Ryu has a place, and it's a really well-designed character, but I think USFIV Ryu better represents that design with his meter usage.
Fine point in theory but bad example. Ryu doesn't have a meterless invincible reversal and In tournament footage, I've seen Denjin picked hundreds of times and Shinku picked like... 10-20.
Shinku is second used since you get more damage output from denjin consistently. While denjin does around 2/3rd or half the damage shinkuu does, Ryu can get more out of a successful stun route than an optimal shinkuu combo.
@@Phoenix-kv3ou when Master Roshi came out, almost everyone got a buff and/or changed in some way. Could changed shit there or atleast in the most recent patch for baby. But they nerfed Roshi instead
@@Fudgaboutit You really shouldn't write off the director just for being a woman. We know nothing about her either, AND game making isn't the static process you make it out to be, with all the feedback from Pros they can collect etc. Not to mention Dragon Ball FighterZ's director is a woman, and that game is not only very successful but also in its most well-liked and balanced state yet.
Imagine how much work they'll be able to accomplish when the devs can stand to be in the same room as their director! The game will drop in 2021 but will be from 2060!
I still feel 3rd strike was able to achieve an aggressive gameplay loop significantly better. And it was able to do that through mechanical design encouraging more aggressive decisions in neutral rather than limiting player options in disadvantage situations.
Aegis Reflector unblockables, the Makoto freight train, the Dudley Flow chart, the Oro juggle, Machine Gun Remy, the Akuma vortex, the number one Chunner, Arnold SchwarzeNecro, Twinsanity, the Ibuki Blender, the Elena effect, and if Hugo or Q go Mastered Ultra Instinct, get ready to get folded like a lawn chair.
@@niceboy5559 Kara throws, kara command throws, super jumps cancels, parry OS, charge partitions, unblockable mix-ups, instant stun combos, It depends how deep the rabbit hole you wanna go.
That’s sorta how they can get away with whitewashing the franchise, because afa fgs go, sf will always be a draw. Yet still compared to other sf titles in the past, sfv does very poorly.
@@stolensentience I think SFV is in a good place currently and it can't be all that bad if people continue to play it. The only fighting game I've seen with equal or greater numbers online consistently is Tekken 7.
So I've seen 3rd Strike, and its DPs specifically, mentioned a bit in the comments, but not enough for the point I'd like to make: In 3rd Strike, there are exactly two fully invincible, damage-dealing moves that do not require meter. They are Ken's fierce DP, and Akuma's fierce DP. These two are actually used very sparingly for defense, even compared to their other DPs, and this is due to their nuanced design. Each of these DPs deals three hits, but only the third hit launches. This is for the sake of combos that go "DP>super" without launching the opponent out. However, if a non-launch hit connects against a properly spaced opponent, it is very likely that the opponent will be pushed out before they're launched, and Akuma/Ken will be left completely punishable (unless they burn bar to super cancel, which is still punishable on block). It's very easy for a lot of characters, if not everyone, to position their meaty attacks such that Ken/Akuma will be punishable on hit for attempting a reversal fierce DP, and get hit if they do anything else. Therefore, you only really use these (raw) if A: you expect the opponent to be RIGHT on top of you and/or airborne, B: you expect them to be grounded, attempting an attack, and you can cancel into a super, or C: they're at low enough life that you can KO with chip damage (just don't get parried) I wanted to bring this up because it's an example of a very exclusive meterless invincible move, in a Street Fighter game, that doesn't heavily skew the meta in favor of those who have it, and still has sufficient application to be a noteworthy part of their movesets, by having a specific weakness that makes its use more nuanced.
3S = Parry. You can parry while jumping in 3S so how dps worked in ST greatly differs from 3S. In 3S, it's more efficient to use dps for combos, canceling supers into combos and mind games compared to ST as it was the go-to AA move (note the jump into parry in 3S).
@@jinkazama7587 While it is an important mechanic, parry isn't the defining factor of the 3S metagame, and it doesn't make reversals redundant. It takes a different read to use one or the other, and they have a different balance of risk and reward. Attempting high/low parry is very risky against Dudley's powerful high/low pressure or Makoto's hit/grab game, for example (throw in delays to bait parries and it's even risker), but DP changes the read to a simpler close/far with a lower reward, instead of high/low/delayed/grab/multihit/etc with a full punish reward from parry. As a side note, DPs also still see use as anti-air in 3S since they often have upper-body invul and cover a lot of vertical space, and you can beat air parries by AA'ing them later/earlier than they expect to get hit.
@@stolensentience Capcom should hire actual pros, not me. One of the main Yatagarasu staff is a pro 3S player, to my knowledge, and I like that game a lot.
Great video, but the "get out of jail free card" thing is just flat-out wrong. DP's have always been high risk/high reward, and especially in the later games where damage is lower. The big exception to this being FADC's--which required meter and was later toned down in Ultra.
New players just don't like having to think about their okizeme. In older games where there were invincible reversals and 1-frame throws, you had to alter your approach to a knockdown depending on the character you were fighting and the wakeup options that character had. Now it's just "hurr durr 1-size fits all until they get meter"
Jammers is wrong about a meterless invincible reversal being a ‘get out of jail free’ card. If you get baited into doing one, you get punished hard. There’s something incredibly poetic about your most powerful move potentially also being your biggest downfall at the same time. Think back to sets you’ve seen when someone gets baited and loses because they’ve cracked due to the pressure and thrown out a DP. It means their opponent has conditioned them sufficiently enough to force them into doing it, and that’s an amazing and integral part of the cycle of yomi in FGs.
Yea but In SFV it’s really kinda stupid, because you get about 4-5 options as you wake up. Block a crushing blow, grab, reversal, block low, or wake-up normals. If you don’t reversal or wake-up norms, you have to be at your opponents mercy for a very long block string that doesn’t let you challenge with anything you have because the block string includes most of the time a crushing blow. Or, dash grab. I don’t know, it was just waaay different in Third Strike, and Ultra.
Exactly. He's trying to make something remedial and shallow sound more challenging and it's funny. Sounds like someone who never learned to bait properly and still doesn't understand why he got hit on wake ups and would call it, "mashing." This occurred in SF2, since no one seems to know. All up until SF2:HF, there were inescapable tick throw loops. Some characters had longer throw ranges so, you can't reverse, or even jump out of the tick. So, characters with normal throw ranges and no invincible moves could be put in situations that would end the entire round, with no strategic way to defend against it other than to avoid the situation, entirely(i.e. never get knocked down, once). So come ST, what did they do to fix this? They added tech throws and an invincible reversal for the ENTIRE CAST. Instead of making situations more mindless and less deep by removing options, they allowed everyone but Bison, to have one. The whole point was that you couldn't even use correct moves, mindlessly. The point was to remove situations where a player was forced to hold offense due to frame advantage. Even attacking with frame advantage had to consider the invincible reversals. The analysis is SO bad but I don't think most will notice, as you have.
@@OGSF_Apoc yeah he goes a long way to play both sides of the fence for views when the arguments, while sounding solid, are actually paper thin. They aren’t entirely without merit, but they really don’t say anything of substance and they certainly don’t make a compelling case either for sfv, or against it.
I feel like since they removed frame 1 invincibility on meterless uppercuts then they should have removed Crush Counter state on meterless uppercuts also and add it to Super's instead.
@@SoenTharthar yeah the counter hit with a HP or HK is like a semi crush counter and it gives enough time confirm into a bit extra dmg. If in SFV the crush counters worked similar it will be waaay better, even with scaling nerf to cc's is dumb to be able to have a free combo
The meterless DP's that are still Crush Counter punishable have some form of invincibility for example Ryus Light DP has throw invincibility from frame 1, Medium is to air attack from frame 1, Heavy is invincible to buttons and fireballs from frame 3. ircc Ken, Cammy, Akuma, Necalli are the same
I'm pretty curious in what value you gain from examining new characters in older versions. Akuma would be way too good with meterless DPs because Akuma was designed without them in mind. Presumably in the design process they gave Akuma other features as a tradeoff for the legacy DPs.
I can see the logic behind what Jammerz and fully admit that he would definitely know more about the game than I do. I take issue with removing meterless invincible reversals and then not reworking the characters in order to match this change. I also take issue with the fact that meterless dps still have counter hit recovery despite lacking full invincibility. If the logic is that they have some form of invincibility thus they should have counter hit recovery, then why don't supers have that too? It seems inconsistent. I also find the logic of because everyone does not have meterless invincible reversals, they should be taken out to be flawed and ignores the nuances that differences between characters brings in fighting games. Hell, not every character has a one bar invincible reversal, and the ones without a 3 frame jab are extra shit out of luck. Should this be allowed too?
To your question at the end: frankly, no. The only characters in this game I can think of that don't have either a 3f jab or an invincible reversal are Alex and Nash, and you see how that works out. Every character should have either one or both of those traits.
Also, about the supers: my reasoning for why they're invincible and yet not counter-hit punishable is that you spend 3 bars on them. It would feel kind of shitty to spend all that meter on them and have them barely give any more utility than a 1-bar invincible reversal.
Meterless (heavy) DPs do still have full invincibility, it's just that it's not on frame one (it's frame three), mediums are antiair invincible frame 1, lights are throw invincible frame 1. All DPs do still follow the invincible=counterhit rule. Sakura's DPs have zero invincibility, and are not counterhit punishable. Supers, rather than being CH punishable, often have larger possible punishes than a crush counter instead. And as said a few replies up, they cost three bars.
I don't understand why when it comes to sfv everyone forgets that this is not the first time that invicible DP aren t a thing, in sfiii there s only two characters with meterless reversals but for some reason now that sfv did the same they pretend that never happened
It's not that they pretend that it never happened, but that SF3 had parries so you still had a very strong universal defensive tool. SFV doesn't have that, even the characters who have parries as their V-skill are notably weaker than the parries in SF3
The fact that there were two characters with invincible DPs in SF3, invalidates your use of SF3 as a previous example of invincible DPs not being a thing.
@@millefune oh you're right the fact that 2 characters out if 17 actually had invincibile dps completely invalidates my point around the whole meta of the game
@@ultimategeass24 Only Akuma has a truly invincible meterless reversal in third strike (the teleport), Ken's HP DP is just very high priority. To add to that it can be punished ever if it does work.
That’s true of every game. This was meant to tweak risk/reward. In sfiv you could minimize risk and vastly increase reward on dp. These changes take it back to be more like 3S, where dps required much more commitment.
@@Pacemaker_fgc true. I mainly play guilty gear, not street fighter so I'm not quite knowledgeable on sf. Just seems like a strange statement to make though, since someone could crush counter you and take 50% health. Wouldn't necessarily call it "free".
@@happycamperds9917 Changed her from a rush down fighter into a storage character. You cant just let a fireball or pinwheel spin loose now when you want to, you have to telegraph to your opponent that you are storing a fireball or two other moves (they can see them above your bar afterall) so once you land a combo you literally have to retreat to reload so to speak, killing any pressure you had going. They removed her dive kick which would not only allow you to throw off your opponent if you were going to do one or all three of the kicks but you could also use it to hit confirm and close the distance. She went from a great character to "why bother" which is such a shame, she used to be one of my mains.
As a 3rd Strike Necro main: I'd just like to have him as a playable character and not a npc in the background. At least they haven't handicapped my character... well... not yet anyway.
I had no idea you could meaty jab to cover reversals in SFII, very interesting! By the way, that mechanic is present in SFV as well, you can pressure with a meaty jab on the likes of Urien, Falke, Ed and still be safe from a EX reversal, due to the slow startup.
The other reason they removed it was because of the general 3 frame input buffer window. It made DPs real easy to mash them out of block strings or frame traps. Any tiny amount of pressure that is oh so slightly minus on block... "SHORYUKEN"! I really wish they just fixed that flaw in the code along with removing Ryu's ability to super cancel his shoryu on block. Also... they did SORT of revert it... Or at least made it suck less than it was at the beginning of Season 2. All they did was make everyone's uppercuts work like Necalli's; light beats throws, medium beats jump ins, and heavy beats slow players.
@@intensellylit4100 Heavy DPs only become invincible on the third frame. Which is total garbage, so it's only good against scrubs that can't time their meaties. That's what I mean by slow.
The problem with eliminating meterless reversals is that the game already lacks defensive options. There are meterless reversals in other games WITH startup to them (guilty gear), but they have other defensive options to make up for their situational usefulness and timing requirements.
@@MansMan42069 changing wake up timing is not a new or unique defensive tool. It exist in practically every game in the series except for the SF2 series. And while yes you may need to use a different setup depending on the wakeup in SF5, many characters have options that beat both quick rise and back recovery. Now compare that to SFA which had back and forward rolls, alpha counters and invincible reversals, SF3 that had a quick rise that had a slight back roll and parries, and SF4 that had quick rise, delayed wake up, delayed quick rise, invincible reversals, and focus. SF5 is severely lacking. Of course his character benefits from being able to do a full screen special to get in safely for free so he has reasons to act like SF5 defense is fine. It benefits him that there are no real defensive tools.
@@anotherinternetperson8495 I've tried other characters. Labbed and played with most of them online. But the only character I am truly comfortable playing with is Nash.
10:43 okay here, at this part i do agree with you. back in 1993 and 1994, absolutely nothing about the fighting game genre was formalized/set in stone. there were FGs with input commands we’d never see in any game after them, there were FGs with beat-em-up style 2D-freeroam, there were even 1-on-1 FGs where u fought entirely with projectiles/fireballs and zero normal attacks whatsoever. i wanna play FGs that throw out every assumption about the genre. nothing should be sacred. get rid of the joystick AND the buttons, make me play entirely with bluetooth iphone touchscreen integration with my PS4, who cares as long as it rules?
Imagine liking fighting games and not being a hardcore traditionalist. I agree. The very first games had a lot of weird and cool ideas (not necessarily with good executions) that unfortunately got lost as the genre became more standardized.
@@fernandobanda5734 Fatal Fury comes to mind when it came to doing different stuff. A lot of stuff introduced in those would later become standard in 3D fighting games
I think the main reason people quit is because the update didn't fix any of the things that were wrong with the game (dulled down game mechanics to make it more accessible to noobs. High focus on pressure and rushdown with a low emphasis on neutral and footsies), and it clearly showed the direction that Capcom was taking for SFV. People hated SFV in season 1 but were hoping things would get fixed with updates. When things didn't change in season 2, that's when the majority quit (myself included).
Yeah the game lost a lot of depth and became very dumbed down from SF4 (the street fighter I grew up on). I still stuck with it but quit after Season 2 since I was becoming even more annoyed with characters like Abigail merely existing lol. Though I bought Championship Edition for around $20 on sale because of Season 5 announcement and I'm starting to find joy in it now thanks to Gill and Kolin for being interesting fun characters (more so Gill) and plus just their being a bunch of more content (multiple v skills/triggers). Though despite all this I still lowkey don't like SF5's gameplay generally but everything else is amazing (stages, music, most characters, etc.)
@@TiredCoffeeMug yea it’s not going to be your cup of tea tbh. SF historically isn’t mechanic heavy and sf4 isn’t super heavy, was the most. After s2, s3 started to make the game more neutral again. Nerf throw loops, nerf damage, nerf cc, increase push back for a lot of normals, etc and s4 made more neutral related changes, gameplay isn’t like S1/2 (which I wasn’t a huge fan)
EVERY season, I just said, "please put in defensive mechanics. " After season 3, I put 2 and 2 together when I noticed that a crush counter sweep gives a hard knockdown and they gave Lucia a command run: They don't WANT defensive mechanics. I put it down ever since.
Ey! You got Jammerz! Shoto-sweep is cancellable in Smash Ultimate (also CvS2 IIRC). It's neat. I miss Ryu having something going for him. Meterless invincible moves could work if the characters or defense were different, but it is what it is.
@@RengokuGS It's pretty insane. Sweep can be cancelled before hitting (Kara Cancels), SmashUlt allows it to be cancelled into Focus Attack since that's a special, Sweep can hit someone off a ledge and start pressure with a projectile or end then with a Shoryuken. The shield break system makes it valuable as well since FADC doesn't cost meter (the only qualifier is you can't cancel specials, not a big deal since it is an armoured air dash mix up tool).
Remember how characters in SFIV without reversals just straight up sucked or had to have ridiculous other tools? Ryu sucks because he doesn't have much else going for him.
I think it comes down to the defense in SFV too. There’s not a lot of defensive options in V, so the removal of meterless invil DP means some characters have, no meterless defensive options
I like both, I think it made Meter more important to the pace of a fight and could have extended further to using an EX Special to Chip Out an opponent, change even more attacks to different attacks (IE: Shoryuken > Shin Shoryuken) or extend what was once a shorter combo for even more characters. On the other side, I see how people want to keep tradition of what was in SFII. Even if it's unfair to characters with less options.
I played blanka in sf4 and just started playing sfv two weeks ago. I was going crazy getting my dp stuffed by simple attacks and losing to almost perfect in the conners. Now the tier list makes sense to me. Those who can take advantage of this mechanic are top tier. Blanka's normal dp are literally useless. They are active for so long and you get hit out of them.
I totally forgot you didn't have to spend bar in S1. Personally I think meterless reversals are part of SF as well as metered ones. At least the true shotos should have one and in that case it shouldn't be about balance, but rather about identity of the archetype.
Only the noobs that can't deal with the move that capcom listened to because they want to attract new players. Yep kinda giving them the silver spoon treatment right there.
I would agree that Ryu should keep it... but that's it. SFV gave the other shotos some seriously good offensive options. So much so that I think they are far more balanced having to spend the meter for their defense.
I *love* the maturity of your content. Being able to comment so positively on changes that you didn't personally desire is breathtakingly aware! Love it! 🖤
The assertion that the homogenization of wakeup reversals was a good thing is an odd one. Half the fun of fighting games is character specific situations. Not everyone needed it, but the characters that had it were special because of it. That'd be like making every fireball recover at the same speed because of some inferred "fairness." I dunno, just doesn't sit well with me at all. Homogenization is rarely something I greet with applause and such. Personal gripe, but what do I care? I don't play SFV anymore. Guess that's the point you made at the end there; there are more options than ever before. The only issue is that SF has this massive following because of its name, and if Accent Core hadn't had this massive leap in playerbase, I'd be stuck with making matches in Discord servers or playing SFV because at least it has said playerbase size. I believe that's why I hold it in such low regards. I liked a lot of what they removed, but they kept all the players so it was easy to feel "stuck" playing this game I hate. lol
Can't agree with DPS being a "Get out of jail free card", specially in SF5 since they leave you in a counter hit state during landing so if it gets blocked you're eating a lot of damage. I can't help but to feel that the change was too harsh, mainly since SF5 doesn't have any particularly strong defensive mechanic. The whole issue with V trigger ryu cancelling the DP into super could have been nerfed way more elegantly I think
@@anotherinternetperson8495 I use them all the time and part of the joke of one is that a dp might be thrown at any time, without those it can become very dull to go for frametraps. Multiple games have frame-traps, invincible dps and nuanced defensive mechanics. SFV just removing invincible DPS from the equation is an incredibly lazy way to deal with the issue that dps were presenting to the game.
I think the problem isn't that invincible meterless dps are too risk free, it's that it makes characters without meterless invincible so helpless on knockdown compared to those who don't, especially ones with no reversal at all.
I haven't played SF5 since season 1. Seeing that Ryu anti-oki confirm was hilarious for all the wrong reasons. I do not blame you for moving on to Guilty Gear.
@@stolensentience You mean Dive Kick specifically or games other than SF5 in general? Either way, I agree. So bored of Street Fighter. IMO, I prefer air dashers, but there are better footsie games too.
Nah, no meterless reversals just makes moment to moment gameplay less engaging and characters less different. Homogenization for balance sucks, I bet when we get to street fighter 7 SFV’s identity will be “the one no one really wants to go back to play.”
Absolutely disagree. The meta of how to spend v-reversals, both offensively and defensively, has evolved a lot due to not being able to yolo dp everytime. When taking into account back roll, quick rise, wake up buttons, backdash and possibly jump as your average wake up options, there way more leeway for characters to be good at certain things then the "my meterless invincible dp wins 50% of the time%. I particularly hate seeing someone constantly wake up with dps in sf4 and be successful because well, why not? More powerful then normal buttons, risking it to be wrong doesn't grant enough benefits for the attacker. There is, in my opinion, a middle ground to be reached, but I like it invincibility being a resource way more then a simple tool
i dunno the video provides a really good counter to this and saying that removing meterless reversals makes characters "less different" might be true in the strictest sense of the word but there's countless ways to differentiate characters in a game, not just whether they have a get-out-of-jail-free card on wake up or not
@@KTSamurai1 don't disagree with that. My feeling playing the game is that it's best left as a restricted option, but that's how I feel. You could make dps unsafe with way less damage on wake up, for all I care, but as I said, I do think there's a middle ground
I am at that stage already despite giving the game multiple chances. I went back to USF4 and it was like night and day, SF was suddenly fun again. I can only hope SF6 corrects the direction they went with 5 because I really hate not liking the game anymore.
@@KTSamurai1 there is a lot of ways to make characters less different, but removing way for characters to be different objectively makes them less different. Also a DP is not a get out of jail free card. The whole balance of a DP is that if your DP is blocked, you eat a whole combo no holds barred. It is inherently risky, and that's what ameks it a read.
DP are not aget out of jail free card in any SF. And in the specific example with Ryu's super, the actual problem there was his super not the Shoryuken. Practical unblockables are hard to balance in any fighting game.
Honestly I can get behind no meterless reversals, it's always nice to have a DP on deck but similarly, you can definitely still balance a game around no/few meterless reversals. IIRC, Rev2 itself only has a couple (Sol's Volcanic Viper, Ky's DP whatever the name of it is, I think Jam carded 623k too? Among a couple others), and the game's top 3 (Johnny, Elphelt, Venom, third place can be debated but that's my opinion at least) has 0 meterless, even tho Johnny and El have great metered ones. It works fine, considering they designed the chars around it, and I think it can work for SF too if designed well. Poor Ryu just needs some buffs to compensate cause he's pretty shit rn.
That is my main argument against removing meterless invincible dps. Sure, if most of the cast/shotos have it then a lot of matchups will have the "issue" that your wake up offense can be stopped by one often, but if only a small handful of characters have them then this is actually making you think differently when you fight these few characters. Ryu right now doesn't have the zoning capabilities of Sagat or Guile but he also lacks the offensive potential of Akuma, Evil Ryu or Ken. Making him the only character with an invincible dp (or one of the few) would make him feel more unique rather than what he currently is, a very mediocre jack of all trades, master of none. As a side note, love how even some characters with meterless reversals in GG still have weaknesses, for example Ky's DP can be low-profiled by some moves.
@FrMZ Yeah cause you're using a "get the fuck off me" move for free. Very cheap way to get out of pressure. Playing against a SF2 Ryu spastically doing dp over and over isn't fun it's just annoying imo.
Capcom did the same thing in Super Street Fighter 2, which pissed off Ryu/Ken mains. Previously in SF1, SF2WW, SF2CE, and SF2HF, the Shoryuken was invincible from frame 1 all the way up the rise. A lot of shoto players quit playing after the dragon punch was nerfed in 1993, myself included. Nevertheless, the game continued on, as will SFV.
@@Fudgaboutit Have you played Pokémon Sword or Shield? Not judging if you haven't due to them being the laziest games in the main series, but outright avoiding all the memes about it since it's release is actually fucking amazing...
I was referring to the point he made later in the video, when he said Street Fighter has taken many forms, and it's essentially a variant of the mechanic that should be appreciated for this specific game, for giving it it's identity. Sword and Shield are terrible compared to the other main series games, but even if Dynamax isn't personally in my Top 20 reasons why that's the case, it still gives Galar it's identity, and I feel it should still should be celebrated because of that, despite how garbage Smogon thinks that mechanic is. That'd be like banning Gems from Gen 5. Like, come on. Gigantamax stuff IS Gen 8, whether you like it or not.
The system not supporting DPs well just screams again that SFV wasn't finished when it was released and it needed substantially more play testing than it got. Like Ryu mains should be pissed in the sense he's a character at least partially designed around that mechanic, and Capcom rushed out SFV, neutered him and didn't even give him anything as compensation even now he's alright but is it Ryu without an invincible DP? idk, like based off the way capcom talked about mvc:i they seem to think characters are functions so Ryu's function as a character just looks and feels off because he was designed for a game that doesn't exist anymore. And Capcom could have probably figured that out, and rebalanced him around not having it while feeling like Ryu if they'd not rushed out SFV. It's on them, and I think the frustration is warranted game balance or not.
Isnt the whole point of a DP to be invincible? It pretty much set the standard for other fighting games to have a 'get off me' tool. I cant imagine a Shoruken that's not invulnerable.
When updating a game like street fighter, straight up removing things rarely ends well. This was a bummer back in the arcade era, but at least there was the understanding that drastic changes would happen with little warning. SF5 is different in that it happened while people were still playing. They had something one minute and lost it the next. The worst part is that nothing came along to replace it. A few characters just suddenly had mechanics and options taken away. Sure, they now play more like the rest of the cast, but their individuality and unique playstyles have been gutted, putting those specific characters at a disadvantage.
Funny thing I noticed the video mentions that shoto sweeps used to be special cancelible. Well oddly enough in smash bros they let the shotos sweep in a random patch. It’s a weird example of a legacy mechanic being added after release.
Jammer's analysis here is just wrong. SRK was never a "get out of jail free" card... you got crushed countered and lost like 300 life if you didn't hit with it! DPs are the riskiest they've ever been in SFV. Baiting a DP never felt more impactful than it did in SFV, you got a lot easy damage off the Crush Counter combo. So making them cost meter post Season 2, while keeping the Crush Counter state, was a just terrible decision because they now had to spend meter just to take a huge risk for not much reward. (The only time DPs were ever a "get out of jail free" card was in SF4 because SRK > FADC was really stupid: for two bars you can not only make your DP safe, but potentially lead into like 500 damage. Even then they eventually nerfed the frame data on DP FADC so you could punish it if you were quick.) He brings up Season 1 Ryu's ability to mash wakeup DP into V-Trigger super. And it's like... that doesn't mean they had to do a system-wide nerf of DPs! They could have just took away Ryu's ability to cancel SRK into super on block. Easy fix. But then again, considering Ryu was garbage for like 4 years straight until recently, nerfing the ever living hell out of Ryu was probably always on the agenda. I think the devs just really hate getting hit by wake up SRK and there really was never much more to it than that. People shouldn't try to rationalize SFV's dumb decisions. It was pretty clear they were just trying to make a game full of mindless rushdown, and taking away meterless DPs just made the rushdown even better. The DP nerf was also paired with a shitload of buffs to rushdown characters like Laura and Balrog. That wasn't an accident, just admit what's obvious instead of try to rationalize away how this game is designed. In retrospect, it's kind of obvious that the game was balanced by a professional Millia Rage player.
In my personal opinion, meterless reversal are a good thing if its design well. I know a lot of new players feel that invincible dp is brainless, but its not guaranteed. If anything if you learn to bait that option out you get a bigger punish and make them scared to use it. I think with sfv design with v triggers its hard to keep them, but they do a poor job giving characters that use to have meterless reversal something to compensate for it. Ryu was never good again because they nerfed him harshly, but cammy who was already god tier gave her more tools. To conclude this I feel meterless reversals keep the game interesting and bring an dichotomy to both offensive and defensive.
I agree. And those with less answers are low tier. This mechanic decides who is top tier or not. I was a blanka main in sf4 and started playing sfv two weeks ago. I was getting frustrated getting my dp stuffed by meaty attacks and not knowing why. I never would have thought they remove invincibility frames from them. At least I know now and not try to use his useless dp.
on the other hand, update *_2.5_* gave zangief a new special move AND made him viable in highlevel play until he was nerfed again, so THAT update was kinda fun. im nowhere near highlevel so i still play him sometimes now
@@HeirofDacia ya!!! it fuckin rules i love that thing. 100% only for stylin on people. t’was _not_ what made him viable in that update; that update buffed him: ua-cam.com/video/Q8nSFP42cMk/v-deo.html
@@oneslickhero4276 of course I have. I have it on SF 30th. I’d play that vs SFV any day lol. But on a serious note... for it being the latest sf all of the other including sf movie are better than sfv. Sfv altered original moves, took a lot of them out, replaced... music sucks, the stages are garbage.. some of the characters look okay, but it just doesn’t feel like a SF to me. I probably sound real biased towards the games but.. I’m stuck in my old ways. CVS2 for life. Lol
Can you make a video regarding proximity blocking. If a game like ST didn't have proximity blocking would this fundamentally change the way the game is played. Would this improve footsies in some way.
@@lewissteward65 I dont think removing meterless invincible dps it hampers defensive play. Sf x tekken removed and it was a very intensive defensive game.
Fair enough on that point, but also keep in mind in Season 3 they also globally nerfed anti-air jabs. I feel that was hugely unnecessary, and it should have been a nerf by context. If we're talking about say, Bison. Fair enough (and I main Bison along with Alex). But Alex's standing LP is 4F, and the animation is high angle and can be ducked under by small characters. It was designed to be an anti-air, and when they nerfed it, they didn't make the hitbox any better for ground usage, so you're almost always better served with crouching LP instead. If anything, the nerfs to Alex in S2, followed by the global nerf to anti-airs completely broke Alex's design philosophy of being a big guy with better normal frames than grappler stereotypes in exchange for having a command throw that resets his frame advantage. Over the years, Capcom kept buffing Alex's offense to make up for his poor defense and lack of neutral tools instead of actually reexamining his design philosophy and fixing him properly. Take a look at his VT2 DDT for example. They can give it a hitbox against crouching opponents but make it blockable, and it'd still be a lot more useful than it is now. Alex is the prime example where you can't just force a global nerf without examining the specific circumstances to a character, because even if his anti-air jab wasn't nerfed, he still wouldn't be anywhere near mid, much less top tier. He just wouldn't suck as much.
Very interesting video, agreed that this was the most controversial update. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts of my own. Now, I wasn't very happy at first but it ended up making a lot of sense. Now every version of dp has a distinct usage, it's not like meterless dps are useless. HiFight's video explains it way better than I can, you should check it out: ua-cam.com/video/wG688r5_3-o/v-deo.html Finally, I disagree with Jammerz. The game did shift into a more offensive style in season 2, but after that they have been consistently toning down offensive pressure and damage.
3 роки тому+7
As I’ve casually watched SFV per season, at the time I didn’t like the deviation from the standard, but then I remember every SF game is a deviation from the standard lmao. And it really was an important change for the volatile nature of the game.
It'll may be a dumb argument but I feel like those unbalanced/uninformized moves are nice to have for lower (and sometimes mid) level players. It's a strong mechanic that people can use while learning the rest of the game that are strong enough so that they can feel like they're playing the game and have fun while at it. I'm not saying that games are not fun without them, but the learning process is tedious if the "first" steps in the game you have to lear to take an edge over the middle players are all subtle differences with wakeup timings, meter management and all. With strong (and sometimes dumb mechanics) you have a tool to fight and also a mechanic to learn to counter which is (imo) fun to deal with in both cases, unlike if I have to learn how to recognize the wakeup timings and learn the timing for them. Basically meterless dps goes brrrr, it's overshadows some things in the game and may be unbalanced but it's fun to use at any point of your progression and offer a base tool while learning the rest if the player wants to, if not it's just fun to mess with.
Hot take: if those new experiences keep being dogshit then there's gotta be a time where gotta just got back to the basics. (Not about SF in particular)
As a shoto player in sfv I like the fact we don’t get a meter less reversal. It’s not brain dead for the lower ranks anymore and each DP serves a different purpose. I love the mind games behind it.
I played Claw in SFV and I thought this change was bad even though it helped my main. Getting CC'd off of a DP punish in SFV was instant loss and risk is exciting. You used to have Momochi (fundamentals low risk) and Eita (high risk all the time) playing Ken and then immediately Eita stopped winning and dropped the game. This all speaking about S2 without talking about it's "Urien will be the best character period" agenda.
You don't need to make everyone the same to make the game balanced. In Fantasy Strike strong offensive characters like DeGrey, Valerie and Setsuki don't have a meterless reversal (as well as Argagarg, who is a strong zoner and hard to get in on), while more shoto-like characters like Geiger, Grave and Jaina do have them.
As a person who typically plays characters without a meterless reversal (usually grapplers but not always) in most games, It really was disheartening in the early days of V as a lower skill player (at the time) and feeling so brickwalled by the threat of a meterless reversal, which was so easy to access compared to the discipline required to bait them. Now, when I play GG or similar game with meterless reversals I am more experienced and can do safejumps so its okay, but not having to choose between stopping my gameplan to bait a dp (the only option in SFV at that time or for a player that doesn't have safejumps down) and risking it getting stopped anyways by said dp if I continue, really made me feel that I had to work twice as hard as my opponent to keep or take back momentum. SFV takes one route that it kind of has to because of how few safejumps are in the game from the various wakeups being available. Comparing playing SFV now to SFV in 2016, not only have my fundamentals improved and allowed me to not get so frustrated, but the change to DPs means I can actually have a fun time playing zangief against a lower level shoto because my pressure isn't nullified by such a powerful and easily accessible option.
enter48 Way to completely miss the point. It doesn’t matter how much damage the punish is, the potency and ease of access of the DP in SFV’s context was huge, despite the obvious risk.
And the issue was that some players, like yourself at the time, only saw meterless invincible reversals as a "get out of jail free card" as opposed to the actual risk/reward involved and the potential benefit of baiting for a punish vs getting hit for relatively low damage (this has been a constant in every version of Street Fighter). When you understand exactly how the game works and the role of those moves, it's no longer an issue. But, the lower level players with less knowledge/understanding were the loudest and gained the developers attention.
@@View619 Even with more experience, I agree with the changes they implemented to SFV. Don't condescend to me like I don't know how to play or my position is invalid because I was talking about my early experience. SFV would be a terrible game if they hadn't have implemented that change for the reasons addressed in my comment and in the video. also, it hasn't "been a constant for every street fighter." Third strike doesn't have meterless reversals, but that is less relevant in that game because of the presence of parries. The reality is that meterless reversals in SFV were too powerful, as the threat of them (again, if you actually watched the video or read my comment) Force the attacker (who had to win neutral to get where they are already, which for a character like Zangief is a lot of work against a character with a DP) has to stop their momentum to bait the DP, and actually doesn't have enough offensive options to maintain their advantage. Put on top of that the fact that SFV has fewer true block strings and is mainly frame trap based and maybe you can see why having a meterless invincible move might be a little too strong in that situation.
@@maxpflughoeft6806 You're free to agree with it, doesn't mean it was a good decision at the end of the day. Players who lack knowledge of how the tools work (note this is not YOU specifically) shouldn't be who the developers go to for feedback that will shape gameplay at all levels. But it's a money-making business at the end of the day and the lower level players are the most numerous/profitable group. Risk/reward actually matters, and the risk of mashing out a meter-less DP and being punished is a sizable factor that must be taken into consideration regardless of the situation. And Zangief's issues in particular aren't related to meter-less reversals, he just sucks in SFV full-stop. Having your pressure end because you LANDED your strongest tool (the jab SPD in this case) is the same type of design decision behind nerfing meterless reversals; because a large group of players think it's unfair without understanding the bigger picture.
I thought it was going to be about capcom doing a netcode fix but all they did was patch out the fanmade netcode and not fix the real issue with their netcode
I can't wait for Street Fighter 6 to come out so people who hated this change can go complain on the new game, every SF has had people complaining about how terrible the new game is. I remember when people were complaining about 4 and how bad it was, but then SFV comes out and everyone starts praising 4 because V didn't fit their image of a perfect Street Fighter game. People regard SF3 Third Strike so highly but that game was part of the reason SF4 didn't come out for almost another decade. (you know, that drought that everyone praises 4 for stopping and for starting some "Golden Era" in fighting games) Meter-less invincible Dragon Punches wouldn't work in V like stated in the video due to some of the characters we ended up getting (some of these characters would be way too strong) and the way the game is played. When Jammerz said "Get out of Jail free card", I don't think he meant you can just spam it on wake up like it was without consequence. SFV is heavily momentum based and the fact that someone has to bait out a meter-less invincible option every time they get a knock down means that person attacking can never truly gather momentum on offense. Every bait is allowing your opponent time to assess what's happening and just walk away from pressure (or Reversal). Every meaty is a real risk due to certain characters having that option to just wake up Dragon Punch. Also, every one is looking at it from the defensive side alone. A "defensive" tool in SFV can and will be used on the offensive side as well. V-Reversals as a defensive tool are meant to stop your opponent from just pressuring you continuously with buttons or allow you a breather to avoid getting stunned, but V-Reversals are also often used to shutdown the opponent's attempt to start a comeback or start their pressure. With meter-less DPs being invulnerable, characters facing those DPs would have to basically guess on defense as well. Ryu throws out a move that's -2? I guess I have to guess whether or not I can take my turn back. Oh, I didn't attack and he didn't DP, I guess I have to take more offensive pressure due to me guessing wrong. (lol) People already cry enough about the likes of Urien busting out an EX Chariot Tackle and then busting out EX Dangerous Headbutt (That's a 2 bar commitment), imagine dealing with something similar (a move that's minus on block) and then the THREAT of an invincible reversal throughout the ENTIRE match? (And Urien's headbutt is truly bait-able, not like Dragon Punches) Street Fighter V is not IV or III or even SFII, the game is different and like the other games have played differently. The ones that say "But it's tradition...", these are video games and stuff changes over time. If tradition is so important, then the old games are still there to play to your heart's content. The problem with fighting games is that the people playing them see every change as a drastic departure from their normal. No change goes un-scrutinized from people playing these games and we will continue to see people bashing the new Street Fighter as no Street Fighter is ever truly the same.
*"Fighting games to constantly evolve in different directions. if sometimes that just doesn't fit our personal desires because if we get too caught up in legacy we're gonna lose the luxury of new experiences."* Then what is the point of playing other fighting games if legacy continue to change to fit those games niches? That the problem I have with modern fighting games is that they feel like they play the same one another. Instead of sticking into their lane of what got people into it to begin with. People need to allow newer Fighting games to fill in those niches so they can get the player base they really needed, not Legacy. It a reason why the Street fighter Community is so divisive.
Looking at the tittle. I thought there was a new recent update that happened that was mad controversial but i watched the video more and realized “ohh it’s just the controversy concerning meterless reversals” lmao. I haven’t been keeping up with sf5 much. Last time I played it frequently was season 2.
Could SF be the series where games are the most different to each other? Pretty much every other fighting game series I can think of are reusing assets from previous games in some way.
People are lucky they can cry about a game and a patch happens like 100x. Growing up a game came out and that’s what you get and you either, get good at it or go play with little baby games.
Yo, say it for the people in the back. That's the ONLY reason fighting games are falling off, too much crying and not enough learning to overcome obstacles. The world (mainly America) is getting more bitch made, which is causing these games to be garbage due to their constant complaints and demands for unnecessary buffs and nerfs. Just another outcome of what happens when people are born out of wedlock. Soy mothafuckas who would rather complain than just get gud.
@@CGImpala for real... and I will be real honest. Being somebody that grew up when games first appeared and when SF first graced us with its presence, SFV is such a learning curve for me because I am so used to the strict game mechanics, things not being so easy to do, way faster movements, moves not altered around or taken completely out from a character.. etc it’s basically a totally different game to me lol. As much as I hate SFV, the fighter in my blood still makes me try to get better at the game. I’m only good at all of the other SF games and go right back to those masterpieces. Patches are the worst thing to ever happen imo... but really tho.. a V-skill just to do Balrogs head butt????????????? Lol and Vegas signature wall dive moves done like a regular fireball?? And kick flip taken out? Lol, I’m done with my rant. But these newer players won’t understand the meaning of difficulty since the games get patches left and right.
@@joeresio Like I said in another thread related to this, let casuals have their own games that evolve around doing what they want and play at their own pace, while us players who are competitive and are dedicated to fully learning complex mechanics can have our own without easy mechanics, buffs, and nerfs ruining the game.
@@joeresio anyone that played older SF games know that Capcom likes to add/remove moves all the time. Chun lost spinning bird kick in alpha. She didn’t have fireball in OG sf2. Bison didn’t have psycho crusher as a normal special. He got a fireball instead in alpha. Some examples but It’s always different
Also non-invulnerable reversals is a third strike thing that carried over to Street Fighter 4. honestly Capcom makes way too many games where the shows are strong and version one and then they Nerf them down too hard by the final version.just make the freaking hard Punch version the one with the invuln that way there's some risk involved
Not gonna lie, thought this was going to be about the rootkit.
Rootkit?
@@isaacsteele7986 basically it can be a backdoor for hackers to access ur PC. Capcom put one on the PCs of Steam users to counteract fight money cheating and whatnot. not worth it.
Because of this, had to disable the antivirus everytime playing the game. Antivirus companies still don't believe the game!
The famous Ryukit!
Uninstalled the game. Sad I can’t refund.
I remember when SF4 first came out they said one of the reasons none of the new characters had DPs was to move away from invincible reversals being a norm and diversify the characters more. This idea is something that's been on their minds for a very long time.
Now characters are made better than the old ones because of this. That's the reason that most new characters are top tier and old characters that benefit from not being punished for being aggresive.
....so in other words, if we didn't like SF5 then don't get our hopes up for SF6 and just switch to Tekken 100%. Got it. Thanks!
@@DrumLuv23 bruh, tekken has the same issue when it comes to new characters being more powerful than older ones
@@Hillthugsta That' not my problem with sf5. My problem with it is that it feels empty and cheap. Winning doesn't feel satisfying and losing feels cheap and humiliating no matter how good you get. You can lose to "garbage" that would never work in any other game because it's designed that way. Tekken won't make someone standing close to my character a 50/50 or mashing jab dangerous. I literally put it down the other day because I thought about how I shouldn't have to take it as a paying customer.
@@DrumLuv23 It's a participation trophy fighting game, intentionally designed to remove skill differences and let scrubs get robbery victories.
Every single character that had a meterless dp had their toolkit and frame data designed around it. Kind of. This is why Akuma was a better shotto than both Ryu and Ken is season 2, also they recevied significant nerfs even though Capcom promised they were not going to do that. Truth be told, they kept that promise with season 3, which is why Akuma, Cammy etc are listed still as top tiers in later seasons.
Awesome! New content... I love this kinda meta FGC stuff, I don’t play SF (play tekken) but watch multiple channels about it. Keep it up
Who do you main on Tekken? I play Jin and Kazuya
Same, i only play Tekken but like to see everything going on in the FGC
@@bobbyshewan4229 yo is your name a raekwon reference (who was Bobby in the wu)?
I started with king years back but play kazuya (highest at genbu) ArMor king, heihachi and yoshi. Just been trying to learn Hank..
Anyone play on Xbox?? 😅
this dog is sick af damn
The problem with SFV is that they insist on taking away features that people really like in order to serve their vision. I don't think this is a bad thing necessarily, but the game shouldn't have been released as a work in progress. I'm fine with where it is now design-wise, but it feels bad that it started from such a different place and led players on that were expecting different things.
Yup so if u bought it with the intentions of enjoying it as it was at release well ur shit out of luck. Pretty bad choice imo.
*the problem with every fighting game updates
I mean, even in SF2 the difference between each version was significant. I remember people not touching Super Turbo because it doesn't have the BS you could do in Champion Edition
literally every street fighter removes or tweaks core aspects of the previous game's skill or design. people thought 3rd strike parries ruined the game when it came out.
And the majority of people who quit the game were Ryu mains, because they didn't give him anything to compensate for the moveset creep or his loss in power. Ryu was already and always was extremely EX hungry. That's why his most popular movesets across fighting games were always ones that complemented his meter.
For example, in SF3:3rd Strike, Ryu's used Shinku over the others specifically BECAUSE he's so meter dependent. Shin Shoryu is an incredible move. But Shinku lets you have a super stock and still have access to EX moves. One of the primary ways that Ryu was able to survive without meter despite average (by design) normals was that he had an invincible Shoryuken. And when you look at Ryu's placing in SF5, it makes a lot of sense.
I just wish they kept Ryu's invicible Shoryuken, and instead fixed the guard crush interaction in that specific case. His other options, like the horrid version of parry that they gave him, just absolutely blows.
That's true, but if we're talking 3rd Strike, that's a game where Ryu could be played in a totally different way if we consider Denjin. Denjin, even tho' it needs a lotta skill to setup, is a really strong super, it's worth it even if Ryu wouldn't have access to a lot of EX moves, because one Denjin opportunity could mean the round for Ryu. You could say Denjin is the optimal way of playing Ryu in 3S, just watch Kuni and Vanao, the 2 best Ryu players and you'll see, that said, Shinkuu Ryu has a place, and it's a really well-designed character, but I think USFIV Ryu better represents that design with his meter usage.
Fine point in theory but bad example. Ryu doesn't have a meterless invincible reversal and In tournament footage, I've seen Denjin picked hundreds of times and Shinku picked like... 10-20.
I wish they gave him fake fireball, honestly.
Have you played 3S Ryu? None of his meterless dps are invincible.
Shinku is second used since you get more damage output from denjin consistently. While denjin does around 2/3rd or half the damage shinkuu does, Ryu can get more out of a successful stun route than an optimal shinkuu combo.
"Or that top tier you've been complaining about somehow escaped nerfs"
**slowly looks over at Ultra Instinct Goku**
It's almost like there hasn't been a balance patch since he's released.
Oh wait..
Except, y'know. There has. A rather large one, infact.
@@owry3144 No, there was not.
The last major balance patch came with the release of UI Goku.
@@Phoenix-kv3ou master roshi patch?
@@Phoenix-kv3ou when Master Roshi came out, almost everyone got a buff and/or changed in some way. Could changed shit there or atleast in the most recent patch for baby. But they nerfed Roshi instead
I'm just curious where the series is gonna go when we eventually get to SF6, especially considering the change in game director
@@Fudgaboutit You really shouldn't write off the director just for being a woman. We know nothing about her either, AND game making isn't the static process you make it out to be, with all the feedback from Pros they can collect etc.
Not to mention Dragon Ball FighterZ's director is a woman, and that game is not only very successful but also in its most well-liked and balanced state yet.
If we extrapolate from SFV, the obvious answer is that SF6 will remove blocking.
@@AaronRotenberg Spend bar to block, VI-Trigger auto wins you the round
@@raveelemental4928 "Meterless blocking was such a scrub mechanic!"
Imagine how much work they'll be able to accomplish when the devs can stand to be in the same room as their director! The game will drop in 2021 but will be from 2060!
I still feel 3rd strike was able to achieve an aggressive gameplay loop significantly better. And it was able to do that through mechanical design encouraging more aggressive decisions in neutral rather than limiting player options in disadvantage situations.
If anything 3rd strike is hyper defensive at higher level due to using parry oses to cover your ass on every single thing you do
Aegis Reflector unblockables, the Makoto freight train, the Dudley Flow chart, the Oro juggle, Machine Gun Remy, the Akuma vortex, the number one Chunner, Arnold SchwarzeNecro, Twinsanity, the Ibuki Blender, the Elena effect, and if Hugo or Q go Mastered Ultra Instinct, get ready to get folded like a lawn chair.
@@SunChipss I didn't know sf3 was that deep
@@niceboy5559 Kara throws, kara command throws, super jumps cancels, parry OS, charge partitions, unblockable mix-ups, instant stun combos, It depends how deep the rabbit hole you wanna go.
@@Zenondikar ok most of that I knew besides Kara command throw and super jump cancel
For the amount of complaints this game gets there sure is hella people online Everyday, all day. Shit I wish Calibur had half of the fan base.
I know I can hardly find a ranked match
Lol agreed
That’s sorta how they can get away with whitewashing the franchise, because afa fgs go, sf will always be a draw.
Yet still compared to other sf titles in the past, sfv does very poorly.
@ZiggyKick92 I been working overtime trying to get people into it. I've only gotten 3 people so far tho lol
@@stolensentience I think SFV is in a good place currently and it can't be all that bad if people continue to play it. The only fighting game I've seen with equal or greater numbers online consistently is Tekken 7.
So I've seen 3rd Strike, and its DPs specifically, mentioned a bit in the comments, but not enough for the point I'd like to make:
In 3rd Strike, there are exactly two fully invincible, damage-dealing moves that do not require meter. They are Ken's fierce DP, and Akuma's fierce DP. These two are actually used very sparingly for defense, even compared to their other DPs, and this is due to their nuanced design. Each of these DPs deals three hits, but only the third hit launches. This is for the sake of combos that go "DP>super" without launching the opponent out.
However, if a non-launch hit connects against a properly spaced opponent, it is very likely that the opponent will be pushed out before they're launched, and Akuma/Ken will be left completely punishable (unless they burn bar to super cancel, which is still punishable on block). It's very easy for a lot of characters, if not everyone, to position their meaty attacks such that Ken/Akuma will be punishable on hit for attempting a reversal fierce DP, and get hit if they do anything else.
Therefore, you only really use these (raw) if A: you expect the opponent to be RIGHT on top of you and/or airborne, B: you expect them to be grounded, attempting an attack, and you can cancel into a super, or C: they're at low enough life that you can KO with chip damage (just don't get parried)
I wanted to bring this up because it's an example of a very exclusive meterless invincible move, in a Street Fighter game, that doesn't heavily skew the meta in favor of those who have it, and still has sufficient application to be a noteworthy part of their movesets, by having a specific weakness that makes its use more nuanced.
3S = Parry. You can parry while jumping in 3S so how dps worked in ST greatly differs from 3S. In 3S, it's more efficient to use dps for combos, canceling supers into combos and mind games compared to ST as it was the go-to AA move (note the jump into parry in 3S).
Capcom hire this man
@@jinkazama7587 While it is an important mechanic, parry isn't the defining factor of the 3S metagame, and it doesn't make reversals redundant. It takes a different read to use one or the other, and they have a different balance of risk and reward. Attempting high/low parry is very risky against Dudley's powerful high/low pressure or Makoto's hit/grab game, for example (throw in delays to bait parries and it's even risker), but DP changes the read to a simpler close/far with a lower reward, instead of high/low/delayed/grab/multihit/etc with a full punish reward from parry.
As a side note, DPs also still see use as anti-air in 3S since they often have upper-body invul and cover a lot of vertical space, and you can beat air parries by AA'ing them later/earlier than they expect to get hit.
@@stolensentience Capcom should hire actual pros, not me. One of the main Yatagarasu staff is a pro 3S player, to my knowledge, and I like that game a lot.
@@Ihavenolifeorvideos yeah I’m jp capcom would never hire someone with game knowledge to work on a game scheduled for success
Great video, but the "get out of jail free card" thing is just flat-out wrong. DP's have always been high risk/high reward, and especially in the later games where damage is lower. The big exception to this being FADC's--which required meter and was later toned down in Ultra.
New players just don't like having to think about their okizeme. In older games where there were invincible reversals and 1-frame throws, you had to alter your approach to a knockdown depending on the character you were fighting and the wakeup options that character had. Now it's just "hurr durr 1-size fits all until they get meter"
@@sabishiihito How much time is spent each round with 0 meter?
DPs are still invincible, but now, there's more specificity.
Video suggestion: Discussing proximity normals and SFV's removal of them (and also the removal of jump specific air normals)
There's nothing good about proximity normals
Why do you think so?
That's a good change
Jammers is wrong about a meterless invincible reversal being a ‘get out of jail free’ card. If you get baited into doing one, you get punished hard.
There’s something incredibly poetic about your most powerful move potentially also being your biggest downfall at the same time.
Think back to sets you’ve seen when someone gets baited and loses because they’ve cracked due to the pressure and thrown out a DP.
It means their opponent has conditioned them sufficiently enough to force them into doing it, and that’s an amazing and integral part of the cycle of yomi in FGs.
This. Anyone who can’t understand this can’t understand sf.
100%. USF4 you could raw Ultra counter a whiff Dp
Yea but In SFV it’s really kinda stupid, because you get about 4-5 options as you wake up. Block a crushing blow, grab, reversal, block low, or wake-up normals. If you don’t reversal or wake-up norms, you have to be at your opponents mercy for a very long block string that doesn’t let you challenge with anything you have because the block string includes most of the time a crushing blow. Or, dash grab. I don’t know, it was just waaay different in Third Strike, and Ultra.
Exactly. He's trying to make something remedial and shallow sound more challenging and it's funny. Sounds like someone who never learned to bait properly and still doesn't understand why he got hit on wake ups and would call it, "mashing."
This occurred in SF2, since no one seems to know. All up until SF2:HF, there were inescapable tick throw loops. Some characters had longer throw ranges so, you can't reverse, or even jump out of the tick. So, characters with normal throw ranges and no invincible moves could be put in situations that would end the entire round, with no strategic way to defend against it other than to avoid the situation, entirely(i.e. never get knocked down, once).
So come ST, what did they do to fix this? They added tech throws and an invincible reversal for the ENTIRE CAST. Instead of making situations more mindless and less deep by removing options, they allowed everyone but Bison, to have one.
The whole point was that you couldn't even use correct moves, mindlessly. The point was to remove situations where a player was forced to hold offense due to frame advantage. Even attacking with frame advantage had to consider the invincible reversals.
The analysis is SO bad but I don't think most will notice, as you have.
@@OGSF_Apoc yeah he goes a long way to play both sides of the fence for views when the arguments, while sounding solid, are actually paper thin. They aren’t entirely without merit, but they really don’t say anything of substance and they certainly don’t make a compelling case either for sfv, or against it.
RIP Ryu Mains
Again!? Dammit!
Its hard being a Ryu out here meng
Why not just give ryu the invulnerable dps? He became trash anyway why not let him keep that part of his game.
they been resting in peace since 2016
@@last7509 no the fuck we havnt
i said this video was gonna be about fighting games
godlike reads
q why you so anon. everything about you is ?
@@PortCityBalrog what??
That's ridiculous this video is clearly about first person shooters. ;)
@@Sinn0100 hadoken wars the game
I feel like since they removed frame 1 invincibility on meterless uppercuts then they should have removed Crush Counter state on meterless uppercuts also and add it to Super's instead.
They did nerf damage scaling on crush counters, they are less rewarding now.
I feel like crush counters were their method of replacing meterless reversals.
@@PrimeTF CCs kind of were in alpha 3. And there were meterless invincible reversals back then.
@@SoenTharthar yeah the counter hit with a HP or HK is like a semi crush counter and it gives enough time confirm into a bit extra dmg. If in SFV the crush counters worked similar it will be waaay better, even with scaling nerf to cc's is dumb to be able to have a free combo
The meterless DP's that are still Crush Counter punishable have some form of invincibility for example Ryus Light DP has throw invincibility from frame 1, Medium is to air attack from frame 1, Heavy is invincible to buttons and fireballs from frame 3. ircc Ken, Cammy, Akuma, Necalli are the same
I'm pretty curious in what value you gain from examining new characters in older versions. Akuma would be way too good with meterless DPs because Akuma was designed without them in mind. Presumably in the design process they gave Akuma other features as a tradeoff for the legacy DPs.
I can see the logic behind what Jammerz and fully admit that he would definitely know more about the game than I do. I take issue with removing meterless invincible reversals and then not reworking the characters in order to match this change. I also take issue with the fact that meterless dps still have counter hit recovery despite lacking full invincibility. If the logic is that they have some form of invincibility thus they should have counter hit recovery, then why don't supers have that too? It seems inconsistent. I also find the logic of because everyone does not have meterless invincible reversals, they should be taken out to be flawed and ignores the nuances that differences between characters brings in fighting games. Hell, not every character has a one bar invincible reversal, and the ones without a 3 frame jab are extra shit out of luck. Should this be allowed too?
I’ve mastered the game. I’ve been playing it for nearly 28 years. The changes all make sense l. Stop complaining.
To your question at the end: frankly, no. The only characters in this game I can think of that don't have either a 3f jab or an invincible reversal are Alex and Nash, and you see how that works out. Every character should have either one or both of those traits.
Also, about the supers: my reasoning for why they're invincible and yet not counter-hit punishable is that you spend 3 bars on them. It would feel kind of shitty to spend all that meter on them and have them barely give any more utility than a 1-bar invincible reversal.
@@drywalleater2661 You can meaty nash super safety with a 4 frame light if I recall correctly
Meterless (heavy) DPs do still have full invincibility, it's just that it's not on frame one (it's frame three), mediums are antiair invincible frame 1, lights are throw invincible frame 1. All DPs do still follow the invincible=counterhit rule. Sakura's DPs have zero invincibility, and are not counterhit punishable. Supers, rather than being CH punishable, often have larger possible punishes than a crush counter instead. And as said a few replies up, they cost three bars.
I don't understand why when it comes to sfv everyone forgets that this is not the first time that invicible DP aren t a thing, in sfiii there s only two characters with meterless reversals but for some reason now that sfv did the same they pretend that never happened
How many of these people played SF3 when that game was relevant lol I bet more people didn't know than forgot.
It's not that they pretend that it never happened, but that SF3 had parries so you still had a very strong universal defensive tool. SFV doesn't have that, even the characters who have parries as their V-skill are notably weaker than the parries in SF3
The fact that there were two characters with invincible DPs in SF3, invalidates your use of SF3 as a previous example of invincible DPs not being a thing.
@@millefune oh you're right the fact that 2 characters out if 17 actually had invincibile dps completely invalidates my point around the whole meta of the game
@@ultimategeass24 Only Akuma has a truly invincible meterless reversal in third strike (the teleport), Ken's HP DP is just very high priority. To add to that it can be punished ever if it does work.
Ryu was nerfed unfairly to dirt that why i hated it
Its hard being a Ryu main meng
Why would you kill a character that is practically the face of the franchise
@@luisvilca4467 They need to take Notes from Nintendo. Mario always Viable in every game lol.
Ryu V-Skill 2 is lmao
@@greennimbus2519 mario is only viable in smash 4 and ultimate. Hes trash in all the other ones
How on earth are dps a get out of jail free card. Having one baited is bad news
That’s true of every game. This was meant to tweak risk/reward. In sfiv you could minimize risk and vastly increase reward on dp. These changes take it back to be more like 3S, where dps required much more commitment.
@@Pacemaker_fgc true. I mainly play guilty gear, not street fighter so I'm not quite knowledgeable on sf. Just seems like a strange statement to make though, since someone could crush counter you and take 50% health. Wouldn't necessarily call it "free".
@@Pacemaker_fgc I do get your point though
@@Pacemaker_fgc 3s dp was an insane thing to do too, both on wake up and jump ins. It was an entirely different mind game because of parries.
i guess the get out jail idea is specifically regarding that it didn’t require meter back then.
As a SF4 Juri main:
Welcome to my world. Sucks not to have wake up options doesn't it?
They did our girl wrong my friend, it's good to know there are others who share our pain *cries manly tear*
Does Juri have options to make up for it, though?
I’m not familiar with the SF4 tier list.
@@happycamperds9917 Changed her from a rush down fighter into a storage character. You cant just let a fireball or pinwheel spin loose now when you want to, you have to telegraph to your opponent that you are storing a fireball or two other moves (they can see them above your bar afterall) so once you land a combo you literally have to retreat to reload so to speak, killing any pressure you had going.
They removed her dive kick which would not only allow you to throw off your opponent if you were going to do one or all three of the kicks but you could also use it to hit confirm and close the distance. She went from a great character to "why bother" which is such a shame, she used to be one of my mains.
Coughs in Balrog
As a 3rd Strike Necro main: I'd just like to have him as a playable character and not a npc in the background. At least they haven't handicapped my character... well... not yet anyway.
I had no idea you could meaty jab to cover reversals in SFII, very interesting!
By the way, that mechanic is present in SFV as well, you can pressure with a meaty jab on the likes of Urien, Falke, Ed and still be safe from a EX reversal, due to the slow startup.
The other reason they removed it was because of the general 3 frame input buffer window. It made DPs real easy to mash them out of block strings or frame traps. Any tiny amount of pressure that is oh so slightly minus on block... "SHORYUKEN"!
I really wish they just fixed that flaw in the code along with removing Ryu's ability to super cancel his shoryu on block.
Also... they did SORT of revert it... Or at least made it suck less than it was at the beginning of Season 2. All they did was make everyone's uppercuts work like Necalli's; light beats throws, medium beats jump ins, and heavy beats slow players.
Actually not every character abides by this. For example Zeku H DP is the one that beats jump ins.
@@omarcostilla8863 I completely forgot to mention that. I think they also later changed Cammy's Light DP to beat jump ins as well right?
Wdym slow players?
@@intensellylit4100 Heavy DPs only become invincible on the third frame. Which is total garbage, so it's only good against scrubs that can't time their meaties. That's what I mean by slow.
The problem with eliminating meterless reversals is that the game already lacks defensive options. There are meterless reversals in other games WITH startup to them (guilty gear), but they have other defensive options to make up for their situational usefulness and timing requirements.
Brian F literally made a video on why the idea of "SFV has no defensive options" is bogus.
Literally just hold back
@@MansMan42069 Brian F also mains a character with a full screen special that's completely safe on block
@@Demon_Curse and?
@@MansMan42069 changing wake up timing is not a new or unique defensive tool. It exist in practically every game in the series except for the SF2 series. And while yes you may need to use a different setup depending on the wakeup in SF5, many characters have options that beat both quick rise and back recovery. Now compare that to SFA which had back and forward rolls, alpha counters and invincible reversals, SF3 that had a quick rise that had a slight back roll and parries, and SF4 that had quick rise, delayed wake up, delayed quick rise, invincible reversals, and focus. SF5 is severely lacking. Of course his character benefits from being able to do a full screen special to get in safely for free so he has reasons to act like SF5 defense is fine. It benefits him that there are no real defensive tools.
Great video, I had forgotten about this change from Season 2.
Ill never drop Ryu. Always been my go to🔥
@@Fudgaboutit then we riot....or play as the closest shoto in proximity
@@Fudgaboutit Ryu and Ken have been in every game, and at this point, Akuma and Chun aren't behind. Why would they not be in SF6
@@Fudgaboutit that's the same as if you say.
Goku won't be in the next dbz fighting game.
I just wish they'd buff Nash just a teeny tiny bit.
As a fang main I feel your pain
Low tiers for better or worse
@@anotherinternetperson8495 I've tried other characters. Labbed and played with most of them online. But the only character I am truly comfortable playing with is Nash.
Na fuck nash
@@gallonthegreat7036 Why though?
@@SolidFake But it's still fun playing Nash even with all the hate. He's my main and I'm not afraid to say it.
Dude, sf x tekken removed fully invincible dps way before sf v
Underrated game too
@@mibbzx1493 underrated comment
What filter do you use on the sprite arcade games?
10:43 okay here, at this part i do agree with you. back in 1993 and 1994, absolutely nothing about the fighting game genre was formalized/set in stone. there were FGs with input commands we’d never see in any game after them, there were FGs with beat-em-up style 2D-freeroam, there were even 1-on-1 FGs where u fought entirely with projectiles/fireballs and zero normal attacks whatsoever.
i wanna play FGs that throw out every assumption about the genre. nothing should be sacred. get rid of the joystick AND the buttons, make me play entirely with bluetooth iphone touchscreen integration with my PS4, who cares as long as it rules?
Imagine liking fighting games and not being a hardcore traditionalist.
I agree. The very first games had a lot of weird and cool ideas (not necessarily with good executions) that unfortunately got lost as the genre became more standardized.
@@fernandobanda5734 Fatal Fury comes to mind when it came to doing different stuff. A lot of stuff introduced in those would later become standard in 3D fighting games
I think the main reason people quit is because the update didn't fix any of the things that were wrong with the game (dulled down game mechanics to make it more accessible to noobs. High focus on pressure and rushdown with a low emphasis on neutral and footsies), and it clearly showed the direction that Capcom was taking for SFV. People hated SFV in season 1 but were hoping things would get fixed with updates. When things didn't change in season 2, that's when the majority quit (myself included).
Yeah the game lost a lot of depth and became very dumbed down from SF4 (the street fighter I grew up on). I still stuck with it but quit after Season 2 since I was becoming even more annoyed with characters like Abigail merely existing lol. Though I bought Championship Edition for around $20 on sale because of Season 5 announcement and I'm starting to find joy in it now thanks to Gill and Kolin for being interesting fun characters (more so Gill) and plus just their being a bunch of more content (multiple v skills/triggers). Though despite all this I still lowkey don't like SF5's gameplay generally but everything else is amazing (stages, music, most characters, etc.)
did that change later on?
@@TiredCoffeeMug yea it’s not going to be your cup of tea tbh. SF historically isn’t mechanic heavy and sf4 isn’t super heavy, was the most.
After s2, s3 started to make the game more neutral again. Nerf throw loops, nerf damage, nerf cc, increase push back for a lot of normals, etc and s4 made more neutral related changes, gameplay isn’t like S1/2 (which I wasn’t a huge fan)
@@HaxHaunter they did, look at my other comment here
EVERY season, I just said, "please put in defensive mechanics. " After season 3, I put 2 and 2 together when I noticed that a crush counter sweep gives a hard knockdown and they gave Lucia a command run: They don't WANT defensive mechanics. I put it down ever since.
The day the series that created dps stopped having dps lol
Yeah but they reverted it after. Still a dumb move.
That's still all there is...
@@martmine4618 No they didn't. There are no meterless reversals in sfv
The worst sf game ever
Dude always love your BGM choice. wish sfv had music like this. you chose like perfect or near perfect music to my taste. thanks
Id be interested in hearing your thought's on sfv v shift mechanic.
Ey! You got Jammerz!
Shoto-sweep is cancellable in Smash Ultimate (also CvS2 IIRC). It's neat. I miss Ryu having something going for him.
Meterless invincible moves could work if the characters or defense were different, but it is what it is.
That's funny bc smashs hit stun system could make that very interesting.
@@RengokuGS It's pretty insane.
Sweep can be cancelled before hitting (Kara Cancels), SmashUlt allows it to be cancelled into Focus Attack since that's a special, Sweep can hit someone off a ledge and start pressure with a projectile or end then with a Shoryuken.
The shield break system makes it valuable as well since FADC doesn't cost meter (the only qualifier is you can't cancel specials, not a big deal since it is an armoured air dash mix up tool).
@@thelastgogeta that sounds so cool
Remember how characters in SFIV without reversals just straight up sucked or had to have ridiculous other tools?
Ryu sucks because he doesn't have much else going for him.
What's up with the censor bar in the top right at the 0:36 mark?
I think it comes down to the defense in SFV too. There’s not a lot of defensive options in V, so the removal of meterless invil DP means some characters have, no meterless defensive options
I like both, I think it made Meter more important to the pace of a fight and could have extended further to using an EX Special to Chip Out an opponent, change even more attacks to different attacks (IE: Shoryuken > Shin Shoryuken) or extend what was once a shorter combo for even more characters.
On the other side, I see how people want to keep tradition of what was in SFII. Even if it's unfair to characters with less options.
I played blanka in sf4 and just started playing sfv two weeks ago. I was going crazy getting my dp stuffed by simple attacks and losing to almost perfect in the conners. Now the tier list makes sense to me. Those who can take advantage of this mechanic are top tier. Blanka's normal dp are literally useless. They are active for so long and you get hit out of them.
I totally forgot you didn't have to spend bar in S1. Personally I think meterless reversals are part of SF as well as metered ones. At least the true shotos should have one and in that case it shouldn't be about balance, but rather about identity of the archetype.
Yeah, I agree. Just give it to Ryu only for fuck's sake, he desperately needs it more than any other shotos in the game
Only the noobs that can't deal with the move that capcom listened to because they want to attract new players. Yep kinda giving them the silver spoon treatment right there.
@@slyzertvoltrond8461 screw Ryu.
Ken is the dragon punch master.
Ken is the ONLY one who should have invincible DP
I would agree that Ryu should keep it... but that's it. SFV gave the other shotos some seriously good offensive options. So much so that I think they are far more balanced having to spend the meter for their defense.
Great video, loved the analysis.
Good to see a fellow Falke main on vid.
I *love* the maturity of your content. Being able to comment so positively on changes that you didn't personally desire is breathtakingly aware!
Love it! 🖤
The assertion that the homogenization of wakeup reversals was a good thing is an odd one. Half the fun of fighting games is character specific situations. Not everyone needed it, but the characters that had it were special because of it. That'd be like making every fireball recover at the same speed because of some inferred "fairness." I dunno, just doesn't sit well with me at all. Homogenization is rarely something I greet with applause and such. Personal gripe, but what do I care? I don't play SFV anymore. Guess that's the point you made at the end there; there are more options than ever before. The only issue is that SF has this massive following because of its name, and if Accent Core hadn't had this massive leap in playerbase, I'd be stuck with making matches in Discord servers or playing SFV because at least it has said playerbase size. I believe that's why I hold it in such low regards. I liked a lot of what they removed, but they kept all the players so it was easy to feel "stuck" playing this game I hate. lol
It looks so stupid how you can stop a cross up with a standing jab in this game.
I’m a dbfz and mk11 player and this shit is interesting, good Video man
Can't agree with DPS being a "Get out of jail free card", specially in SF5 since they leave you in a counter hit state during landing so if it gets blocked you're eating a lot of damage.
I can't help but to feel that the change was too harsh, mainly since SF5 doesn't have any particularly strong defensive mechanic. The whole issue with V trigger ryu cancelling the DP into super could have been nerfed way more elegantly I think
You my friend have never used a frame trap it would seem
@@anotherinternetperson8495 I use them all the time and part of the joke of one is that a dp might be thrown at any time, without those it can become very dull to go for frametraps. Multiple games have frame-traps, invincible dps and nuanced defensive mechanics. SFV just removing invincible DPS from the equation is an incredibly lazy way to deal with the issue that dps were presenting to the game.
I think the problem isn't that invincible meterless dps are too risk free, it's that it makes characters without meterless invincible so helpless on knockdown compared to those who don't, especially ones with no reversal at all.
Brian F literally made a video on why the idea of "SFV has no defensive options" is bogus.
@@MansMan42069 and?
I haven't played SF5 since season 1. Seeing that Ryu anti-oki confirm was hilarious for all the wrong reasons.
I do not blame you for moving on to Guilty Gear.
Same. I’ve logged into SFIV, 3S and Tekken more than SFV.
@@JohnPedder Good man. I've legit spent more time in Dive Kick since then. (good game TBH)
@@bunnybreaker let’s be real. Footsies has more nuance to it than sfv
@@stolensentience You mean Dive Kick specifically or games other than SF5 in general? Either way, I agree. So bored of Street Fighter. IMO, I prefer air dashers, but there are better footsie games too.
2:36 "so I could further engage with a love for GOOEY GOO..."
I remember this patch, man I REMEMBER HOW TIGHT EVERYONE WAS
Found this kn my recommended Im goods
Nah, no meterless reversals just makes moment to moment gameplay less engaging and characters less different. Homogenization for balance sucks, I bet when we get to street fighter 7 SFV’s identity will be “the one no one really wants to go back to play.”
Absolutely disagree. The meta of how to spend v-reversals, both offensively and defensively, has evolved a lot due to not being able to yolo dp everytime.
When taking into account back roll, quick rise, wake up buttons, backdash and possibly jump as your average wake up options, there way more leeway for characters to be good at certain things then the "my meterless invincible dp wins 50% of the time%. I particularly hate seeing someone constantly wake up with dps in sf4 and be successful because well, why not? More powerful then normal buttons, risking it to be wrong doesn't grant enough benefits for the attacker.
There is, in my opinion, a middle ground to be reached, but I like it invincibility being a resource way more then a simple tool
i dunno the video provides a really good counter to this
and saying that removing meterless reversals makes characters "less different" might be true in the strictest sense of the word but there's countless ways to differentiate characters in a game, not just whether they have a get-out-of-jail-free card on wake up or not
@@KTSamurai1 don't disagree with that. My feeling playing the game is that it's best left as a restricted option, but that's how I feel.
You could make dps unsafe with way less damage on wake up, for all I care, but as I said, I do think there's a middle ground
I am at that stage already despite giving the game multiple chances. I went back to USF4 and it was like night and day, SF was suddenly fun again. I can only hope SF6 corrects the direction they went with 5 because I really hate not liking the game anymore.
@@KTSamurai1 there is a lot of ways to make characters less different, but removing way for characters to be different objectively makes them less different. Also a DP is not a get out of jail free card. The whole balance of a DP is that if your DP is blocked, you eat a whole combo no holds barred. It is inherently risky, and that's what ameks it a read.
Audio balance seems to be substantially better in this vid 👍
Awesome vid man, nice and balanced analysis.
DP are not aget out of jail free card in any SF. And in the specific example with Ryu's super, the actual problem there was his super not the Shoryuken. Practical unblockables are hard to balance in any fighting game.
Honestly I can get behind no meterless reversals, it's always nice to have a DP on deck but similarly, you can definitely still balance a game around no/few meterless reversals. IIRC, Rev2 itself only has a couple (Sol's Volcanic Viper, Ky's DP whatever the name of it is, I think Jam carded 623k too? Among a couple others), and the game's top 3 (Johnny, Elphelt, Venom, third place can be debated but that's my opinion at least) has 0 meterless, even tho Johnny and El have great metered ones. It works fine, considering they designed the chars around it, and I think it can work for SF too if designed well. Poor Ryu just needs some buffs to compensate cause he's pretty shit rn.
That is my main argument against removing meterless invincible dps. Sure, if most of the cast/shotos have it then a lot of matchups will have the "issue" that your wake up offense can be stopped by one often, but if only a small handful of characters have them then this is actually making you think differently when you fight these few characters.
Ryu right now doesn't have the zoning capabilities of Sagat or Guile but he also lacks the offensive potential of Akuma, Evil Ryu or Ken. Making him the only character with an invincible dp (or one of the few) would make him feel more unique rather than what he currently is, a very mediocre jack of all trades, master of none.
As a side note, love how even some characters with meterless reversals in GG still have weaknesses, for example Ky's DP can be low-profiled by some moves.
@FrMZ Yeah cause you're using a "get the fuck off me" move for free. Very cheap way to get out of pressure. Playing against a SF2 Ryu spastically doing dp over and over isn't fun it's just annoying imo.
I thought this was gonna be about the "march update" for some reason lol
So is it worth playing now? It's been sitting on my shelf for over a year
Capcom did the same thing in Super Street Fighter 2, which pissed off Ryu/Ken mains. Previously in SF1, SF2WW, SF2CE, and SF2HF, the Shoryuken was invincible from frame 1 all the way up the rise. A lot of shoto players quit playing after the dragon punch was nerfed in 1993, myself included. Nevertheless, the game continued on, as will SFV.
This video could have been about Dynamaxing in Pokémon, and it still would've worked, amazingly enough.
@@Fudgaboutit Have you played Pokémon Sword or Shield? Not judging if you haven't due to them being the laziest games in the main series, but outright avoiding all the memes about it since it's release is actually fucking amazing...
but this is a nerf, where dynamax is an outright overpowered gimmick that completely ignores regular play lol.
I was referring to the point he made later in the video, when he said Street Fighter has taken many forms, and it's essentially a variant of the mechanic that should be appreciated for this specific game, for giving it it's identity. Sword and Shield are terrible compared to the other main series games, but even if Dynamax isn't personally in my Top 20 reasons why that's the case, it still gives Galar it's identity, and I feel it should still should be celebrated because of that, despite how garbage Smogon thinks that mechanic is. That'd be like banning Gems from Gen 5. Like, come on. Gigantamax stuff IS Gen 8, whether you like it or not.
The system not supporting DPs well just screams again that SFV wasn't finished when it was released and it needed substantially more play testing than it got. Like Ryu mains should be pissed in the sense he's a character at least partially designed around that mechanic, and Capcom rushed out SFV, neutered him and didn't even give him anything as compensation even now he's alright but is it Ryu without an invincible DP? idk, like based off the way capcom talked about mvc:i they seem to think characters are functions so Ryu's function as a character just looks and feels off because he was designed for a game that doesn't exist anymore. And Capcom could have probably figured that out, and rebalanced him around not having it while feeling like Ryu if they'd not rushed out SFV. It's on them, and I think the frustration is warranted game balance or not.
Was there a recent patch in 2021 that changed things? Things seem a little different,.
Isnt the whole point of a DP to be invincible? It pretty much set the standard for other fighting games to have a 'get off me' tool. I cant imagine a Shoruken that's not invulnerable.
When updating a game like street fighter, straight up removing things rarely ends well. This was a bummer back in the arcade era, but at least there was the understanding that drastic changes would happen with little warning. SF5 is different in that it happened while people were still playing. They had something one minute and lost it the next.
The worst part is that nothing came along to replace it. A few characters just suddenly had mechanics and options taken away. Sure, they now play more like the rest of the cast, but their individuality and unique playstyles have been gutted, putting those specific characters at a disadvantage.
Funny thing I noticed the video mentions that shoto sweeps used to be special cancelible. Well oddly enough in smash bros they let the shotos sweep in a random patch. It’s a weird example of a legacy mechanic being added after release.
This is the best new FGC channel since roflmonger. Hope you hit 100k soon
Jammer's analysis here is just wrong. SRK was never a "get out of jail free" card... you got crushed countered and lost like 300 life if you didn't hit with it! DPs are the riskiest they've ever been in SFV. Baiting a DP never felt more impactful than it did in SFV, you got a lot easy damage off the Crush Counter combo. So making them cost meter post Season 2, while keeping the Crush Counter state, was a just terrible decision because they now had to spend meter just to take a huge risk for not much reward. (The only time DPs were ever a "get out of jail free" card was in SF4 because SRK > FADC was really stupid: for two bars you can not only make your DP safe, but potentially lead into like 500 damage. Even then they eventually nerfed the frame data on DP FADC so you could punish it if you were quick.)
He brings up Season 1 Ryu's ability to mash wakeup DP into V-Trigger super. And it's like... that doesn't mean they had to do a system-wide nerf of DPs! They could have just took away Ryu's ability to cancel SRK into super on block. Easy fix. But then again, considering Ryu was garbage for like 4 years straight until recently, nerfing the ever living hell out of Ryu was probably always on the agenda. I think the devs just really hate getting hit by wake up SRK and there really was never much more to it than that.
People shouldn't try to rationalize SFV's dumb decisions. It was pretty clear they were just trying to make a game full of mindless rushdown, and taking away meterless DPs just made the rushdown even better. The DP nerf was also paired with a shitload of buffs to rushdown characters like Laura and Balrog. That wasn't an accident, just admit what's obvious instead of try to rationalize away how this game is designed.
In retrospect, it's kind of obvious that the game was balanced by a professional Millia Rage player.
In my personal opinion, meterless reversal are a good thing if its design well. I know a lot of new players feel that invincible dp is brainless, but its not guaranteed. If anything if you learn to bait that option out you get a bigger punish and make them scared to use it. I think with sfv design with v triggers its hard to keep them, but they do a poor job giving characters that use to have meterless reversal something to compensate for it. Ryu was never good again because they nerfed him harshly, but cammy who was already god tier gave her more tools. To conclude this I feel meterless reversals keep the game interesting and bring an dichotomy to both offensive and defensive.
I agree. And those with less answers are low tier. This mechanic decides who is top tier or not. I was a blanka main in sf4 and started playing sfv two weeks ago. I was getting frustrated getting my dp stuffed by meaty attacks and not knowing why. I never would have thought they remove invincibility frames from them. At least I know now and not try to use his useless dp.
That blue singlet that zangeff is wearing at the end of the video, I would love to have one similar to it 0/
on the other hand, update *_2.5_* gave zangief a new special move AND made him viable in highlevel play until he was nerfed again, so THAT update was kinda fun. im nowhere near highlevel so i still play him sometimes now
Wasn't that new special move a borderline useless, hyper specific parry? One that only countered standing medium kicks or some shit?
@@HeirofDacia ya!!! it fuckin rules i love that thing. 100% only for stylin on people. t’was _not_ what made him viable in that update; that update buffed him: ua-cam.com/video/Q8nSFP42cMk/v-deo.html
this is a gold mine for ScrubQuotes
Sf4 was more fun imo
Sf4 was GOATED
SFV is the worst SF game in my opinion.
@@joeresio nah second maybe but have you ever played sf 1
@@oneslickhero4276 of course I have. I have it on SF 30th. I’d play that vs SFV any day lol. But on a serious note... for it being the latest sf all of the other including sf movie are better than sfv. Sfv altered original moves, took a lot of them out, replaced... music sucks, the stages are garbage.. some of the characters look okay, but it just doesn’t feel like a SF to me.
I probably sound real biased towards the games but.. I’m stuck in my old ways.
CVS2 for life. Lol
Can you make a video regarding proximity blocking. If a game like ST didn't have proximity blocking would this fundamentally change the way the game is played. Would this improve footsies in some way.
The best part of the change is that Akuma never had access to meterless invincible shoryukens. The character is already pretty strong without them
I absolutely miss that the shotos no longer have cancelable sweeps.
I like how this is a mostly positive spin on the removal of meterless invincible reversals and most of the comments are just shitting on it instead
Cause it was shitty change
Its like people forgot the shitfest mash dp/fadc on wakeup sf IV was.
And this guy is wrong, the first capcom game to have it removed was sf x tekken
@@laughingseal2282 and you see how that went (jokin of course)
@@lewissteward65 I dont think removing meterless invincible dps it hampers defensive play.
Sf x tekken removed and it was a very intensive defensive game.
@@laughingseal2282 because of game mechanics it self not because dps if you didn’t play defense you didn’t want to win
for the ryu vtrig uppercut to super guard break dillema you could just backdash the dp and punish instead of blocking?
Fair enough on that point, but also keep in mind in Season 3 they also globally nerfed anti-air jabs. I feel that was hugely unnecessary, and it should have been a nerf by context. If we're talking about say, Bison. Fair enough (and I main Bison along with Alex).
But Alex's standing LP is 4F, and the animation is high angle and can be ducked under by small characters. It was designed to be an anti-air, and when they nerfed it, they didn't make the hitbox any better for ground usage, so you're almost always better served with crouching LP instead. If anything, the nerfs to Alex in S2, followed by the global nerf to anti-airs completely broke Alex's design philosophy of being a big guy with better normal frames than grappler stereotypes in exchange for having a command throw that resets his frame advantage.
Over the years, Capcom kept buffing Alex's offense to make up for his poor defense and lack of neutral tools instead of actually reexamining his design philosophy and fixing him properly. Take a look at his VT2 DDT for example. They can give it a hitbox against crouching opponents but make it blockable, and it'd still be a lot more useful than it is now. Alex is the prime example where you can't just force a global nerf without examining the specific circumstances to a character, because even if his anti-air jab wasn't nerfed, he still wouldn't be anywhere near mid, much less top tier. He just wouldn't suck as much.
Very interesting video, agreed that this was the most controversial update. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts of my own.
Now, I wasn't very happy at first but it ended up making a lot of sense. Now every version of dp has a distinct usage, it's not like meterless dps are useless. HiFight's video explains it way better than I can, you should check it out: ua-cam.com/video/wG688r5_3-o/v-deo.html
Finally, I disagree with Jammerz. The game did shift into a more offensive style in season 2, but after that they have been consistently toning down offensive pressure and damage.
As I’ve casually watched SFV per season, at the time I didn’t like the deviation from the standard, but then I remember every SF game is a deviation from the standard lmao. And it really was an important change for the volatile nature of the game.
Next version, only 1 fireball per round
It'll may be a dumb argument but I feel like those unbalanced/uninformized moves are nice to have for lower (and sometimes mid) level players. It's a strong mechanic that people can use while learning the rest of the game that are strong enough so that they can feel like they're playing the game and have fun while at it.
I'm not saying that games are not fun without them, but the learning process is tedious if the "first" steps in the game you have to lear to take an edge over the middle players are all subtle differences with wakeup timings, meter management and all. With strong (and sometimes dumb mechanics) you have a tool to fight and also a mechanic to learn to counter which is (imo) fun to deal with in both cases, unlike if I have to learn how to recognize the wakeup timings and learn the timing for them.
Basically meterless dps goes brrrr, it's overshadows some things in the game and may be unbalanced but it's fun to use at any point of your progression and offer a base tool while learning the rest if the player wants to, if not it's just fun to mess with.
Underrated take
Hot take: if those new experiences keep being dogshit then there's gotta be a time where gotta just got back to the basics. (Not about SF in particular)
As a shoto player in sfv I like the fact we don’t get a meter less reversal. It’s not brain dead for the lower ranks anymore and each DP serves a different purpose. I love the mind games behind it.
I played Claw in SFV and I thought this change was bad even though it helped my main. Getting CC'd off of a DP punish in SFV was instant loss and risk is exciting. You used to have Momochi (fundamentals low risk) and Eita (high risk all the time) playing Ken and then immediately Eita stopped winning and dropped the game. This all speaking about S2 without talking about it's "Urien will be the best character period" agenda.
You don't need to make everyone the same to make the game balanced. In Fantasy Strike strong offensive characters like DeGrey, Valerie and Setsuki don't have a meterless reversal (as well as Argagarg, who is a strong zoner and hard to get in on), while more shoto-like characters like Geiger, Grave and Jaina do have them.
Loved this update
As a person who typically plays characters without a meterless reversal (usually grapplers but not always) in most games, It really was disheartening in the early days of V as a lower skill player (at the time) and feeling so brickwalled by the threat of a meterless reversal, which was so easy to access compared to the discipline required to bait them. Now, when I play GG or similar game with meterless reversals I am more experienced and can do safejumps so its okay, but not having to choose between stopping my gameplan to bait a dp (the only option in SFV at that time or for a player that doesn't have safejumps down) and risking it getting stopped anyways by said dp if I continue, really made me feel that I had to work twice as hard as my opponent to keep or take back momentum. SFV takes one route that it kind of has to because of how few safejumps are in the game from the various wakeups being available. Comparing playing SFV now to SFV in 2016, not only have my fundamentals improved and allowed me to not get so frustrated, but the change to DPs means I can actually have a fun time playing zangief against a lower level shoto because my pressure isn't nullified by such a powerful and easily accessible option.
lol are you talking about the game that added "crush counters" to street fighter? miss one uppercut, eat 50% dmg
enter48 Way to completely miss the point. It doesn’t matter how much damage the punish is, the potency and ease of access of the DP in SFV’s context was huge, despite the obvious risk.
And the issue was that some players, like yourself at the time, only saw meterless invincible reversals as a "get out of jail free card" as opposed to the actual risk/reward involved and the potential benefit of baiting for a punish vs getting hit for relatively low damage (this has been a constant in every version of Street Fighter). When you understand exactly how the game works and the role of those moves, it's no longer an issue. But, the lower level players with less knowledge/understanding were the loudest and gained the developers attention.
@@View619 Even with more experience, I agree with the changes they implemented to SFV. Don't condescend to me like I don't know how to play or my position is invalid because I was talking about my early experience. SFV would be a terrible game if they hadn't have implemented that change for the reasons addressed in my comment and in the video. also, it hasn't "been a constant for every street fighter." Third strike doesn't have meterless reversals, but that is less relevant in that game because of the presence of parries. The reality is that meterless reversals in SFV were too powerful, as the threat of them (again, if you actually watched the video or read my comment) Force the attacker (who had to win neutral to get where they are already, which for a character like Zangief is a lot of work against a character with a DP) has to stop their momentum to bait the DP, and actually doesn't have enough offensive options to maintain their advantage. Put on top of that the fact that SFV has fewer true block strings and is mainly frame trap based and maybe you can see why having a meterless invincible move might be a little too strong in that situation.
@@maxpflughoeft6806 You're free to agree with it, doesn't mean it was a good decision at the end of the day. Players who lack knowledge of how the tools work (note this is not YOU specifically) shouldn't be who the developers go to for feedback that will shape gameplay at all levels. But it's a money-making business at the end of the day and the lower level players are the most numerous/profitable group. Risk/reward actually matters, and the risk of mashing out a meter-less DP and being punished is a sizable factor that must be taken into consideration regardless of the situation.
And Zangief's issues in particular aren't related to meter-less reversals, he just sucks in SFV full-stop. Having your pressure end because you LANDED your strongest tool (the jab SPD in this case) is the same type of design decision behind nerfing meterless reversals; because a large group of players think it's unfair without understanding the bigger picture.
I thought it was going to be about capcom doing a netcode fix but all they did was patch out the fanmade netcode and not fix the real issue with their netcode
Dang the analysis was big enough to make OG Apoc right another essay about how SFV and young players ruined everything
I can't wait for Street Fighter 6 to come out so people who hated this change can go complain on the new game, every SF has had people complaining about how terrible the new game is. I remember when people were complaining about 4 and how bad it was, but then SFV comes out and everyone starts praising 4 because V didn't fit their image of a perfect Street Fighter game. People regard SF3 Third Strike so highly but that game was part of the reason SF4 didn't come out for almost another decade. (you know, that drought that everyone praises 4 for stopping and for starting some "Golden Era" in fighting games)
Meter-less invincible Dragon Punches wouldn't work in V like stated in the video due to some of the characters we ended up getting (some of these characters would be way too strong) and the way the game is played. When Jammerz said "Get out of Jail free card", I don't think he meant you can just spam it on wake up like it was without consequence. SFV is heavily momentum based and the fact that someone has to bait out a meter-less invincible option every time they get a knock down means that person attacking can never truly gather momentum on offense. Every bait is allowing your opponent time to assess what's happening and just walk away from pressure (or Reversal). Every meaty is a real risk due to certain characters having that option to just wake up Dragon Punch. Also, every one is looking at it from the defensive side alone. A "defensive" tool in SFV can and will be used on the offensive side as well. V-Reversals as a defensive tool are meant to stop your opponent from just pressuring you continuously with buttons or allow you a breather to avoid getting stunned, but V-Reversals are also often used to shutdown the opponent's attempt to start a comeback or start their pressure. With meter-less DPs being invulnerable, characters facing those DPs would have to basically guess on defense as well. Ryu throws out a move that's -2? I guess I have to guess whether or not I can take my turn back. Oh, I didn't attack and he didn't DP, I guess I have to take more offensive pressure due to me guessing wrong. (lol)
People already cry enough about the likes of Urien busting out an EX Chariot Tackle and then busting out EX Dangerous Headbutt (That's a 2 bar commitment), imagine dealing with something similar (a move that's minus on block) and then the THREAT of an invincible reversal throughout the ENTIRE match? (And Urien's headbutt is truly bait-able, not like Dragon Punches) Street Fighter V is not IV or III or even SFII, the game is different and like the other games have played differently. The ones that say "But it's tradition...", these are video games and stuff changes over time. If tradition is so important, then the old games are still there to play to your heart's content. The problem with fighting games is that the people playing them see every change as a drastic departure from their normal. No change goes un-scrutinized from people playing these games and we will continue to see people bashing the new Street Fighter as no Street Fighter is ever truly the same.
*"Fighting games to constantly evolve in different directions. if sometimes that just doesn't fit our personal desires because if we get too caught up in legacy we're gonna lose the luxury of new experiences."*
Then what is the point of playing other fighting games if legacy continue to change to fit those games niches? That the problem I have with modern fighting games is that they feel like they play the same one another. Instead of sticking into their lane of what got people into it to begin with. People need to allow newer Fighting games to fill in those niches so they can get the player base they really needed, not Legacy. It a reason why the Street fighter Community is so divisive.
Looking at the tittle. I thought there was a new recent update that happened that was mad controversial but i watched the video more and realized “ohh it’s just the controversy concerning meterless reversals” lmao. I haven’t been keeping up with sf5 much. Last time I played it frequently was season 2.
Could SF be the series where games are the most different to each other? Pretty much every other fighting game series I can think of are reusing assets from previous games in some way.
People are lucky they can cry about a game and a patch happens like 100x. Growing up a game came out and that’s what you get and you either, get good at it or go play with little baby games.
Yo, say it for the people in the back. That's the ONLY reason fighting games are falling off, too much crying and not enough learning to overcome obstacles. The world (mainly America) is getting more bitch made, which is causing these games to be garbage due to their constant complaints and demands for unnecessary buffs and nerfs. Just another outcome of what happens when people are born out of wedlock. Soy mothafuckas who would rather complain than just get gud.
@@CGImpala for real... and I will be real honest. Being somebody that grew up when games first appeared and when SF first graced us with its presence, SFV is such a learning curve for me because I am so used to the strict game mechanics, things not being so easy to do, way faster movements, moves not altered around or taken completely out from a character.. etc it’s basically a totally different game to me lol. As much as I hate SFV, the fighter in my blood still makes me try to get better at the game. I’m only good at all of the other SF games and go right back to those masterpieces.
Patches are the worst thing to ever happen imo... but really tho.. a V-skill just to do Balrogs head butt????????????? Lol and Vegas signature wall dive moves done like a regular fireball?? And kick flip taken out? Lol, I’m done with my rant. But these newer players won’t understand the meaning of difficulty since the games get patches left and right.
@@joeresio Like I said in another thread related to this, let casuals have their own games that evolve around doing what they want and play at their own pace, while us players who are competitive and are dedicated to fully learning complex mechanics can have our own without easy mechanics, buffs, and nerfs ruining the game.
@@CGImpala I wish!
@@joeresio anyone that played older SF games know that Capcom likes to add/remove moves all the time. Chun lost spinning bird kick in alpha. She didn’t have fireball in OG sf2. Bison didn’t have psycho crusher as a normal special. He got a fireball instead in alpha. Some examples but It’s always different
They actually made the game fun? Aw no they didnt.
Is it worth to buy in 2021?
Also non-invulnerable reversals is a third strike thing that carried over to Street Fighter 4.
honestly Capcom makes way too many games where the shows are strong and version one and then they Nerf them down too hard by the final version.just make the freaking hard Punch version the one with the invuln that way there's some risk involved