Working on Spider-Verse Was "Hell" | Why 'Beyond the Spider-Verse' Will Be Delayed
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2024
- David Chen discusses a recent piece at Vulture about the working conditions for 'Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse' and why 'Beyond the Spider-Verse' will probably be delayed.
Read the Vulture piece: www.vulture.com/2023/06/spide... - Фільми й анімація
Hey Dave I worked on that movie for four months and didn’t even get a screen credit. Producers and supervisors got wise at the end and kept as many people away from Phil as possible but I still had a couple meetings where I could hear his notes and tenor and he was insufferable. I had multiple friends in positions of leadership and they were barely holding themselves together. Good movie, great art, didn’t need to be that difficult to make it. Zero chance part two comes out next year.
I'm so sorry that all happened to you I really did enjoy the movie
Honestly I don’t think it’s going to come out at all.
@@swampwaffle74 What exact evidence do you have for that
@@kingj9664 I don’t have evidence, I just think it’s not gonna come out. Not saying I’m right, but I don’t think I’m wrong.
@@swampwaffle74 I mean probably won't come out this year but it is coming out but I don't know this is just a weird statement to make
Man, that’s a bummer. Was hoping everyone involved would be celebrating right now. Didn’t even imagine the people responsible for bringing it to life would be feeling like this.
they should be happy that they made the best movie ever
@@ibrake4rappers but the whole thing here is: a lot of them probably didn't even make much of the movie; their work and contributions were likely cut out because of all the changes made
Something felt wrong when I saw 1000 artists and a budget of 100 million dollars. Some people got underpaid and I know they had to work very hard regardless.
@@metacitizend1095 good point
If anyone that worked on the series sees this i wanna let you know that you guys did one hell of a job, and nothing makes me as happy as i am when i saw these 2 films. You guys did really good with all the pressure and ty for at least staying as long as you did as a guy thats studying art and inspired by animations id put spiderverse at the top. Nothing compares to this masterpice
I get the “ keep working on it until it’s right” I’m an animation student, and it’s super important that everything makes sense and looks the part. HOWEVER. You do those major changes before the animation, vfx and so on.
Crazy how inhumane producers can be, artists poured their souls and life into something that was just thrown away like nothing.
This is a shame hearing this because whatever they're doing is clearly working as far as the final product goes. But is it worth it if you're making people miserable?
Danm dude u wise and your right they should be enjoying doing it. If I ever get good enough to make a show or something I want something that will make people that struggle with being happy find joy in a show but my hopes are low for that ever happening its just a distant dream probably not reachable
@@trainwreckintime9348 There is some sort of middle ground that I'm sure is very difficult to achieve when making a movie this big.
In those industries crunch is normal and expected, tho what's sad is that 1000 artists worked on it and the budget was 100 million. Lots of them got underpaid and lowballed. That should really change on the next film.
Even as someone whom wants Beyond the Spider Verse really badly, I’d still be happy if it was delayed to 2025-26 if it meant the people working on it have less stress put on them.
@@tookie1gselfish
Animators are some the most used, abused, neglected and forgotten artists in the movie indistry.
If people were working 5 to 7 hours a day, 4 to 5 days a week, (while making a 'better than living wage') I would have no problem with Ms. Pascal's "Welcome to making a movie" attitude.
It's sad to see that a movie that made me so happy and excited had a bad work environment and that artists and workers were almost "suffering" to make the movie.
Fr tho. If animators/artists complain about bad working conditions, more often than not it is 100% true. Pascal's response to this was absolutely ridiculous.
So the age old movie making process is to blame and not the incompetent management? How convenient lmao.
My heart goes out to all the artists on this project. The world thinks your hard work shines through this film. :)
So disappointing. Makes me wonder if this was the way Lord and Miller made Lego Movie 1 and 2. These guys are brilliant but it sounds like working for them is demoralizing. It’ll be hard to watch these movies again without thinking about that.
And Lego Movie 2 is considered one of their worst sequels. Lord & Miller are lucky that ATSV even has positive reception.
@@rommix0 it’s probably their lowest rated but I still absolutely love that movie. Despite this disappointing account from these animators, I still think Lord and Miller are brilliant and some of the best writer/director duos out there.
Is that why they got fired from Solo?
@@Maw0 who knows, this article makes me think this directing style could be part of the reason, but I doubt it. I always assumed that with Solo they were trying to make some meta commentary on Star Wars and that Disney didn’t like it. I have no evidence, just a theory.
@@rommix0 I'm pretty sure they didn't direct the second one
Man this is disappointing. I’m an Animator and VFX artist and this makes me happy I didn’t pursue film or even video games hearing stories like this. That’s no way to have a happy staff.
For someone learning how to use AI, this is why animators need AI assisted tools. The potential is there and will speed things up without compromising quality.
@@rommix0they already use AI to make spiderverse its the only reason the movie came out in 5 years and not 30
@@Silva-avliS Definitely. I was saying that in another comment section, but was harassed there by being called a nerd. Thankfully that thread don't exist no more as I reported it for harassment.
I've watched these movies like 12 times until now. And when you talk about working conditions, I kinda get that part too. I'm a writer.
Whenever something great is being made, there are going to be multiple editing and cut of scenes and then being rebuilt so that it's good, then better and then even better. That's what makes the movie so great. I'm sure Phil must also be in a lot of pressure of changing scenes and doing his stuff. Everyone has it hard. You chose this life for yourself when you become an animator. And I'm not saying that your exhaustion is nothing or that you don't deserve to have time for yourself. I understand that you are human too. But sometimes, our job can be so hard that we 'have' to give extra time and effort. That's what makes the end product so valuable.
Even for spiderman(even if he is fictional), in the comics, it's shown how Miles doesn't even get proper sleep because of his job, it must be exausting for him too.. Ok, spiderman isn't real, but police are, they do the same.
The day you become an animator, you chose this hard life for yourself, so please don't blame your higher ups, they are also having a hard time with their jobs, they aren't enjoying while you are working your butt off.
With love,
- A perspective fan
Love this quick hits format you’ve been doing more of lately. Keep it up Dave! And thanks for doing 60FPS 👏
You noticed!
@@davechensky always! It’s the same difference as people who instantly disable Motion-Smoothing on TVs vs those who don’t know! It’s 2023, 60FPS or bust.
@@davechensky You didn't want to go the Way of Water and flip flop between multiple frame rates?? ;)
Curious if Phil Lord is malicious or if he's just that ignorant to the animation process
While neither is good for someone that powerful in that position
If it is ignorance. I hope this is a wake up call, and he respects the animators and treats them better for the next one
He is most likely malicious. This ain't his first rodeo.
@@lk5388 Not sure if it's completely malicious, but I wonder what kind of pressure from the studio execs he has on his shoulders to maximize the project's profits. I'm sure the that is certainly a focus, along with the quality of the final product (obviously, because it was amazing) more than the quality of life for the team is, unfortunately.
Welp. Glass shattered. What a shitty, privileged, typically dismissive and toxic comment from Pascal. I know this is probably typical abuse most animators endure on different levels, but still absolutely awful to hear. Unions man, vital!
@@hotballs69 They did, but not their bosses. You're beginning to sound as dismissive and tone deaf as our former insurrectionist president Donald J Trump.
"He knew what he signed up for." - Donald Trump (2017)
That is extremely disheartening to hear. Folks who put any effort into shaping the film should've received credit. I suppose they achieved some form of perfection with this mindset as the film was absolutely incredible, but you definitely need to ask if it's worth it when it is burning through an entire pool of talent like a raging wildfire. Personally, I am excited for the 3rd film and hope the conditions producing it are better, but the reality is that they're probably worse now that this film was such a wild success. Nobody on the leadership team is going to accept anything short of perfection on the 3rd film, and the people putting in the leg work are likely going to feel it.
Obviously I haven't been behind the closed doors, so take me with a grain of salt. Pascal's stupid quote aside;
From the sound of it Phil Lord isn't malicious. As someone who wants to work in this medium I completely understand the "work on it 'till it's just right" perfectionist mindset. However, working on scenes until it's finished just to scrap it is immensely frustrating, So I have faith in him to work on it differently next time and have that mindset, but not suffer at the expense of the animators.
How much longer can VFX Artists go on for without forming their own Union?!
How much longer to animators and VFX artists have before an algorithm takes their gig?
@@DanJackson1977 that’s most of our jobs at this point though
They're trying.
@@DanJackson1977no algorithm can be produce stuff like that 😂
@@DanJackson1977algorithms will never replace artists
I really hope that the artists get better conditions. Who cares if it comes out in 2025 or 2050. I will still go see it, but not if it was the result of many physically and mentally burnt out artists
It’s sad to hear that I hope the people recover from all that hard work
If the videogame industry is any model for Sony movies, the film will come out on-time (through crunch alone) wildly incomplete, be disappointing, then get a Cats-style second-release after it blew its chance.
Hopefully not, i'd rather it taking a few years more and get the same quality as before, as long as the animators get better working conditions i don't mind waiting, wishful thinking though.
Isn't this why they weren't chosen for Star Wars? I mean, considering their background, behavior makes sense.
Well this is going to be a disgrace from Disney as they warned them if delaying it will have to pay a refund
They made an announcement. It's gonna take 3 or 4 years.... 😢
That’s fine
@@vince11harrisyeah like i can wait, hell ill probably enjoy it more bein older and less brain dead
We truly anime now.
Oh, we have been. Always have been.
Those hours will test the resolve of any one who is tuff 😂
Oml, they should’ve just finished both of the films first before releasing ATSV, then release BTSV a couple of months after.
True but we will be waiting till like 2025
Aw man :(
Plz dont tell me the film wont take to long
I don’t know it seems kinda fishy we don’t know if its true or not what they are saying
Weren't they doing both movies at the same time?
Perhaps the video will contain the answer to your question
@@davechensky Yep, you're right. My bad haha
😢😢😢😢booohooo 7 days a week 11 hours a day booohoooo
@@hiramrosajr8231 Wtf is wrong with you, a 70 hour work week should never be necessary except in life threatening emergencies.
@@hiramrosajr8231 Low Pay, And Stupid Deadlines.
I’m sure you love when ur boss rips ur work up and tells you to keep going this way now.
And i thought thats what storyboarding is tor 💀
Honestly imo if this was the working environment for the this film, then I don’t want beyond the spider verse. And tbh I don’t think we need it. I think across the spider verse ended well and that should be the end of it. So again, WE. DO. NOT. NEED. BEYOND THE SPIDER-VERSE. I don’t need it and want it. And I’m sure others feel the same way.
Good movie
It already Got delayed
@@hotballs69 Probably a year or two.
I sympathize with animators working hard and wanting to see their work and have a sense of accomplishment. At the end of the day it’s a job and as long as they are being paid fair wages and not being verbally or physically abused, I would have to agree with the producers. 11 hours a day 70 hours a week is the work schedule of every truck driver in America. That’s not a big deal. It sounds like that’s what it takes to make an amazing movie like that. If the movie was not good with great working conditions people would only be talking about how the movie was garbage compared to the first while tanking at the box office.
The article and the video both explain the hours were not the problem with the animators
Have you considered that maybe truck drivers and animators are both underpaid?
@@davechensky First I would like to say that I highly enjoy and appreciate your videos and many other podcasts that I have listened to for years. I have not had a chance to read the entire article but only watched this video. I am a truck driver which is why I used that comparison. To answer your question yes it is possible that both jobs are underpaid and I have considered that. I am unaware of what animators are generally paid. That’s why I mentioned as long as they are being paid fair wages and not abused in my comment. In my opinion long hours and their work not being used alone doesn’t sound like abuse to me just unfortunate. Like I said I sympathize with them but at the end of the day it’s a job. My intention was not to insult the animators but to compare what was said in the video with any other job where we have to just do the work to get paid to feed our families and pay bills. What happens to the final product may be out of our hands. I realize I may be in the minority in feeling this way. Thank you for responding and I will continue to watch and support your channel and podcasts.
@@MrRawwd If you're driving more than 60 hours a week, you are in violation of USDOT regulations. If you're driving that much in the EU, you are WAY over regulation driving time. Admittedly, working 70 hours a week as an animator is not as much of a safety issue, but still... I recognize that the time pressure is enormous (for both jobs!), but that doesn't mean that people should have to work unhealthy hours, regardless of compensation.
@@Ken_Bad we’re allowed to work 70 hours before time off for a restart not drive. I understand your point though.
This is the same thing that happens in live action film making. Re-shoots, costume changes, recasting, script revisions, etc. It’s just in animation you actually have to create things from scratch instead of just having an actor fly in for a half day of shooting. I don’t understand these complaints when it comes to filmmaking. It’s like a designer getting annoyed that he has to turn in 7 painted designs for a new model of car. “Ugh I put all this work into this painting and they’re not even gonna use it”. In the words of David Lynch - Get Real!
Animating is completely different than reshooting, film making, e.t.c animation takes days to even get progress on one scene.
@@hystic2728 yeah I know. Any art form that doesn’t involve physical objects that exist in the world requires constant adaptability and flexibility. You know how many times I do a painting before I finally land on the one I like? Dozens! You’re never done with something you create from whole cloth until it’s DONE. Sometimes you have to kill the entire thing and start over. Seems like Phil understands this and others on the team don’t.
@@TheOneTrueBeard making a single art and making multiple arts for animation are completely different.
@@hystic2728 As I said before, from-scratch art has process. I have done animation in the past digital, traditional, and stop-motion and I can tell you my point still stands.
@@TheOneTrueBeard well not all people are passionate of their skills and some get tired i mean heck they literally said it took em 2-3 yrs to make a single sequence of the film
imagine making art as a job and whining about it cry babies bruh you just get to sit down and make art for 11 hours??? Bro try working a summer job where you have to be physically in shape half of the artist prolly can’t do a push up
You're not him
@@enmunap aún?
@@jefferyandbob3137 lol go do some push ups
@@jefferyandbob3137 they have it so easy and they whine
babe. every job is a physical job in some aspect. sitting down, staring at a screen and clutching a pen for 11 hours straight can fuck you up too in the long run. carpal tunnel is real. they have a right to not want that for themselves. it doesnt have to be about who's having it worse, its normal to want to avoid suffering if you can