Oh how I wish there could have been cameras in the court room! This trial would have been fascinating to watch real time! I have so much respect for you Mark and every person that had the courage to walk away from this cult and try to rescue as many as you could.
They reaped reward while they could, then ran when that ended, before posing as 'victims' to reap more reward: protection from prosecution, then suing remaining members for recompense, even though they were as much or more sinning against than being sinned against
Do you realize that you have.changed the world. The impact you have had is incredible. You should be proud of that, give yourself due credit. Your a great man!!
Hi Mark. I’m so glad you and Bonnie are out, and doing great things. My favorite part of The Vow was when you found stuff in storage. She said something like “I must tell the rebels” or similar. It was a glimmer in all the dead dirt. Thanks again. PS I love What the Bleep !
Thank you for making this. I heard you on Dr Ramani's podcast as I learn about narcissism. The whole story fascinates me because I now see the patterns and the games these people play with other's lives. I have not seen the vow yet but I heard the lawyer speak on the CBC podcast showing Sarah's perspective and you took the words out of my mouth: he bought it! At first I thought: tell me you don't know about coersive control without telling me you don't know about coersive control. But then the more he spoke my hair stood on end and I became angry and then it hit me how Keith had brainwashed him the same way he had others. How his charm (blergh narcissist) and his whole spiel fooled him. It makes me angry to hear him say all this because it takes so much wway from those who were hurt. It is not an easy story but actually, I have to thank you personally because you told Dr Ramani that speaking out was the scariest thing you have ever done but also the best. This pushed me to speak up about my narcissistic therapist to the overseeing board. We will see. What you all did is incredible and I feel relief to know it worked and you can focus on healing.
Hi Mark. You impressed me so much while watching the Vow (part 1), that I always listened to podcasts when I saw you were the guest. I wish you and Bonnie all the best.
Hello! I have watched both seasons of The Vow, and I am so happy that you survived, and more importantly your marriage! Little things in life test every facet of our beings, but to overcome what you have and to maintain your marriage, all while helping many women to escape this "mad man" is highly commendable! God Bless both you and Bonnie! P.S. Tell Bonnie I am the hugest Star Wars geek!
I studied law for a year at university. When I spoke candidly to barristers, as I was aiming to be a barrister, they talked me out of a career in law. I changed to Linguistics and did a BA in that. One barrister told me he didn’t think I could stand defending a guilty person who had some some awful stuff. He was right.
You are 200% correct that Agnifolo was brain washed!! I thought that the whole time! When he said KR said to him " my life is in your hands" it screamed that he was sucked in.
And he parroted KR's word salad justifications, instead of attacking the 'sex trafficking' with no money involved precedent - or book reports as 'forced labor'. He wasn't thinking of the legal logistics. 'It's not charged' he says repeatedly, what was charged then? Sex trafficking and racketeering.
Thank you so much for doing these. The past few years I have been trying to leave abusive, cult-like situations, and these podcasts are helping more than you can imagine. Thank you again.
I love what you say at 22:00. Their level of tenacity/rigidity/inflexibility around their beliefs or “tech” does not invite/allow for doubt/nuance/inquiry. They take a kind of comfort/refuge in that kind of absolutism. There is so much of this going around now. Your insights have far reaching implications for the world culture!
@@markvicente7 love you mark. If you find a movement that has the good benefits of nxivm that’s actually not a cult or brainwashing network, let me know, because some of the things that enticed you to nxivm look great. Like community, friendship etc…it’s hard to find in this age of technology. I’m halfway kidding, but I understand how these things can be drawing and enticing to all types of people. It’s the psychos in the back pulling the strings that ruin a lot of things that could of been good, but after all these things coming out I wouldn’t trust joining any type of group. I do need friends though, if you ever need an extra female actress or extra in one of your movies let me know. I’d love to get on a project or help out with something. I have dated a psychopath before, but I know that’s not the criteria for your current film. If you ever need any other stories let us all know, because I’ve been through a whole lot of love to be able to share one day.
I only just found these debriefs. I'm glad you discussed Allison Mack's apology. I was a huge fan of her prior to her arrest but when I read her apology the thing that jumped out at me is that it felt written by a lawyer and not actually a heartfelt apology. I do hope I'm wrong and that she's actually trying to process what she did because I'm a big believer in redemption, but that apology felt too polished.
Thank you for sharing your story. This topic of NXIVM really struck me, I think because I was in a close relationship with an abusive narcissist for years. KR's demeanor, speaking, etc. makes my blood run cold because of how similar it is. If my ex were more organized he could have created something similar. I understand all too well how easy it is to be taken in by someone like that. I hope as a society we can learn more about the early development of such individuals so we can avoid creating more of them.
I have now watched Seasons 1 and 2 of The Vow twice each, all the way through. I just wanna say to you Mark, thank you, thank you, thank you. I think what you did was so frickin hard and scary. But so many possible future victims are now safe and won't be victims because you walked through the fire until KR was behind bars. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I Love the fact that you’re doing this show. I’m 23 and in all my years this is one of the most fascinating topics I’ve ever delved into. The vow season 1 was so eye opening. Not to the extent of Kieth Raniere, but I feel like we all know someone who can’t ever admit they are wrong. That is the scary part to me.
Mark, I don't know you personally, but it heartens me to know that you are finding solace in the support you're getting from the online community. You seem like a genuinely good soul and really smart and I wish you and Bonnie healing and happiness.
Mark, in one episode of season one, you said, with tears, that no one join a cult, they join a group of people trying do good thing, and you no longer know what is right what is wrong. I was so touched by your words. I'm living in China now and never joined a cult. But after reading and practicing so many self help methods from books, I no longer know what is wrong or right. My value system and my common sense are messed up. Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Keep on going.
Another great pod ! The relief when I don’t have to trawl through Netflix to find something to watch and I can watch this instead - something I’m actually fascinated by. First may I congratulate you on the wonderful tonal quality of your video, the T shirt, the glasses, the mirror, the eyes, the wall and skin tone - it’s so pleasing ! 😂 I really want to know more about how you guys confused them on your plans after you left! 🕵️ The whole meta data thing they are hanging on to is so frustrating - I hope the doc quashes that once and for all 🙏 for me one of his emails to Ivy was all that I needed to know he was evil or his texts to Camilla. Can’t wait to read your book ! Many thanks for the content once again ❤️
I'm so glad to hear someone say Agnifilo was brainwashed because I felt it deeply and I have tried to see if he ever came out of it. In a different episode it seems he starts to.
Incredible rundown! I especially commend you Mark for your comments about the impact of coercive control in cults. Knowing about coercive control and indoctrination is extremely important to know when analyzing Nxivm or any cult for that matter. I’ve noticed a lot of people doing that when talking about DOS or Nxivm at large saying it was all consensual or that people who fell for Keith Raniere’s tricks are stupid when that’s the furthest from the truth. Thank you so much for all you do Mark and I look forward to more episodes!
Thanks so much Mark. Where can we find the Court transcripts? You are so brave to stand up and speak the truth. Being so deeply betrayed by a man you saw as a friend and mentor would shred most people into inaction.
I got told to watch as much as I can on this to save me from ending up in a weird situation which is heading this way - so thank you :) It's really showing me what is happening!
I am fascinated by cult stories and this was such a wild ride. All of you are brave to speak out about your experiences and the insidious acts done by Raniere and Nancy Saltzman.
I don't think Nicki will ever break away from Keith. I honestly believe at this point that she won't come back from this because she's still so brainwashed. It's really sad to hear her defending Keith. I noticed when she said she was proud of her decisions in this episode that she didn't sound like she was proud of them. She was speaking in a tone that was anything but confident and it almost sounded like a question. I may have said this in another comment in one of these videos, but I find it very interesting that the man who said we will not choose to be victim is now acting and behaving like a victim. Nicki is treating him and portraying him like a victim. She goes to anyone that will listen to her and keeps talking about how poor innocent Keith is having all of this trouble in prison. It's prison. Prisons often have to keep child abusers away from the rest of the prisoners. He is getting hate becuase of that. Nicki continues to say Keith didn't do anything wrong and the government set him up. It's always someone else's fault when it comes to narcissists. They don't know how to take responsibility or accountability for their actions.
Just finished watching the whole season. I found the remaining follower's "composure" to be quite unsettling to be honest. They didn't seem to be human to me, and I was very uncomfortable with almost everything they said.
Mark I’m so happy to see you have your own podcast and are talking about this. I wish much love to you and Bonnie.💜 Even as I watched the most recent episode of season 2 episode 4 and all that’s come out about dos and the truth of what Keith was really doing. I’m still shocked that he has women fervently supporting him and it’s sad to see women like Nikki clyne who claims what she is doing is her choice and for her she doing it for personal growth when in reality it’s just down to Keith ranieres sexual preferences and need to control these women. There are two types of people I think, those that wake up and those that don’t. Those awake know the truth and trying to get those who are not to wake up is never easy because we can see the reality and they can’t or won’t so when they try and defend this man from that viewpoint that is why they won’t get anywhere. How is a man telling her how many calories to eat, how thin she needs to be and the way she has to obey him, his god damn initials on her groin how is that for personal growth??! For her to sit and say that no one would care if men were doing it. What a ridiculous thing to say. I doubt they are being made to have group sex! This is not female empowerment, that is women ultimately being controlled by a man and for what? Sex and power. He liked having power and control over people. That’s what it came down to. The “collateral” is the difference, which is blackmail and that’s why it’s criminal. That’s is not consent. That is not okay. Nothing dos was doing which was so many despicable things, was okay. The criminal complaint took me months to get through. I understand she’s still clearly in a cult mindset because if she wasn’t she would see how completely wrong this picture is. She reminds me of the Manson girls who all stuck with him for years after he was arrested and seeing them with crosses cut into their foreheads and shaved heads whilst they maintained what a great man he was. I really don’t see any difference with those girls and women like Nikki clyne. Anyone who still hasn’t separated from nxivm or Keith because they believe he’s such a great ethical being, I just hope they wake up one day and get help. I’ll never understand why anyone saw anything in Keith, he would be nothing without the amazing work of the community that did all the work for him and the credibility they all gave him. Some of them gave up the best years of their lives based on Keith’s false promises of children, or relationships etc, he is psychopath and a malignant force in the world and I’m glad he will never get out of prison.
Its so important that you have made this series of videos. alot of people are leaving other cults and your videos are helping them - INcluding Sarah and Nippy.
It’s so interesting hearing you and watching you now with this clarity and you look so much healthier than the person I saw in the Vow, particularly in season 1. You looked so hollow and lacking in identity and it was so sad to watch, but you look so much healthier mentally now and it’s so good to see!
❤your so brave when I was 14 I was recruited into a cult called the Moonies I still to this day don’t understand how I fell for such idiotic crap but then looking back I probably couldn’t of got out of it when I did I’m so glad that you were able to see the light and let’s remind everybody who is here on this channel we are all vulnerable we are all potential victims and nobody is free from being scammed one way or another the only difference between me now and when I was 14 I don’t seek anything anymore outside of my own mind I don’t seek external stimulation or gratification I just seek to be the best person I can be and that keeps me safe from outside influences anyway well done Mark all of your hard work and tenacity thank you for your braveness
That was amazing Mark!! Great episode! I have so many questions that are very niche. Here are 2: 1- why did Keith change his looks and cut his hair at some point. 2- I heard you mentionned once that all the names Keith gave to the programs were an inside joke to himself. Why was it called NXIVM? Why was it called Jness? Could you expand on what you found out? I thought it was fascinating. Thanks! :)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I really appreciate it because I’m having trouble processing the hideous information that’s revealed during the trial (just watched episode 2). That said, take all the time you need to recover from each episode release. I just listened to your episode 2 debrief and I absolutely understand the need to do a gentle retreat especially after that episode.
Hi Mark! I happy to mow that you and Bonnie are doing well and that you are healing through sharing your experiences in this cult (I know Nancy said there is no definition for the word, but sure there is a she is part in creating one). I was very confused that Nancy is part of the Vow season 2 or I should say the portrayal of her part in the whole thing. It seems to me that she is claiming to be a victim and not know what was happening, which I don’t believe at all!! But also very surprised that the HBO producers are letting her off the hook and run with it, so I’m very interested in your opinion about that.
@@AlwaysAnonymously Far from it. HBO's The Vow has if anything been too soft on them, due to their reliance on a small number of ex-members for most of their content. At least in series one (I've yet to see series two). Is there any mention of possible murders they committed, for instance?
It was just so crazy to me to how Nikki is still so entrenched. Im heartbroken for her. The way she was sniffing his damn jacket, not even sure it was really his. She seems almost deranged. Like a different person than she was 15 years ago.
He is not delusional. Definitely. He says what he thinks has an effect. It is the only way he can use the language. He doesn't function like you. Thank you for sharing all this.
If that’s Bonnie working out in the reflection in the t.v tell her thank you for getting your husband out of there and starting this awakening to get out to the people you care about. I believe you are a key player to this and helped a lot of people.
I'm a lawyer. It is not true that lawyers can lie in court. We have a duty of Candor to the Tribunal as officers of the court. This is found in rule of professional responsibility 3.3.
You look so much more healthy now that you are out. And you look happier. And calmer. I hope you have gained the confidence in yourself and will just research your own questions and ask real experts if you have a question. And I know more than likely you will vet people now before you believe in their qualifications before you just take them at their word. Because of how Keith Raniere lied about being a karate expert and classical pianist and karate expert and scientist, etc. I’m so happy you and your wife Bonnie got out.
The term "tech", as used by NXIVM & Scientology, is so grating to me. Philosophy, religion, ethics lessons,, way of being, etc. are all much more accurate verbiage. They use the term "tech" to make it seem scientific and more credible as well as quietly playing to one's secret desire to be seen as just a bit smarter than others. The disconnect these women had is still so shocking. They were in a "relationship" with Keith but could not talk about it to others or be publicly acknowledged by their love. The ones who knew he was not monogamous had to remain so all while telling the world how ethical he was!! Wow....
I’m watching this now two months after watching season 2. Three things stood out to me about season 2: 1. I still don’t know how to feel about Nancy and the fact that she said she holds more anger towards Sarah kind of made me less sympathetic. I’m aware that she is still grappling with waking up but she seems defensive still and maybe not wanting to take as much accountability as she should. 2. A black woman being part of this and holding on to the ideals of this cult. While I was watching her I kept thinking that maybe she’s holding on so strongly because admitting to herself that she was willing to participate in this master slave relationships is harder. It’s so bizarre. Specially when Raniere seems kind of racist. I’m 💯 sure he did not seek out a relationship with her. He was surrounded by skinny white women and white passing hispanics. It’s such a dichotomy to see her being participant and still holding on. That blew my mind. 3. The longer the trial went Raniere’s layer seemed more and more dejected. I bet he was a nightmare of a client. Manipulative and not disclosing everything. And I bet he was controlling as hell. One person I really felt sorry for was Nicki. She seems like a lost soul. I hope she wakes up and gets the help she needs. I don’t know if she was as awful as Allison and Lauren (I know they were completely manipulated but they also committed abuse to others) but she has this childlike air to her. At least that’s how it came across to me. I just felt bad for her. I’m glad you guys are putting all this out there to educate people. I’ve never been part of a straight up cult but back in my native country I was part of a church that adopted this doctrine that turned out to be a massive pyramid scheme. I listened to my gut and left before everything exploded but they were also not programming us to not listen to our gut. It was called G12 in South America.
after watching the first season, seeing how far the women's group went, I wonder what the men's group were supposed to end up doing. Mark do you have any theories?
You know, I know that everyone tried really hard to get India out, and eventually she was out. But when I was watching the whole "Seduced" series, I really couldn't help but think that she was editing a lot of details to not be perjuring herself in the court of public opinion and had changed her story around a lot to seem like she didn't know what was going on and was just doing what she was told blindly. But I honestly think she was continuing with DOS because of the collateral and also, was aware that she was already in trouble for all the things she was told to do. When she was telling the story, it just seems like she didn't want to get in trouble with Ali or the law so she kept going as long as she could until it really was safe to get out. I just feel like she could have been honest about it. Because yes, she was also a victim, but she was not just a victim, she was aware of what was going on and thats the part that I get vibes from. I just can't get over the feeling of her knowing a lot more about what was going on and she couldn't leave until people weren't holding collateral over her head. I just can't shake it. I usually follow my instincts about people and theyre screaming at me that she was being portrayed one way when really, she was a lot more aware than she was letting on, but if she admitted that then she could be held culpable and not be considered brainwashed. This is just my personal opinion. Ive watched The Vow, Seduced, The Lost Women of Nxivm, Cults and Extreme Beliefs: Nxivm, at least 5 times each. Listened to podcasts and UA-cam videos about it. Interviews. Read the trial transcripts twice. And I really like and feel for India, but I have a different opinion of her than I do of Mark or Sara or Nippy or Isabella. I just feel like that series tries to put her in a different light and makes sure the world knows she was a victim and not responsible for her actions. Which is smart, she didn't want to get charged like Lauren and Allison. But I think she knew that she would have been charged if she didn't turn those drives in and bring all the evidence to the state. And that was the right thing to do. I don't know where im going with this, but I just have to get my feelings out there. I feel for her and absolutely love her mother, but I just keep feeling like she spun it a little differently to keep herself out of jail, and I can't blame her for that. But that's just my opinion. Im glad to see the first episode of seduced is on UA-cam, and that I am not the only one over here thinking about this. Edit: my gosh ive got videos on a playlist to play as I'm walking around doing stuff and I was commenting on the first episode of "Seduced" and this video was next up in the queue and it changed over as I was posting it 😬 but because it is sort of related (I mean, it's the same subject and people, so.. related haha) I think I am going to leave it here too and just copy it for the last video. But Mark, you and Bonnie rock 🖤🖖
This episode of the Vow was unexpectedly hard for me to watch. Nikki and Michelle seemed wooden, rote and really, really sad to me...and I want so badly for them to get the support they need to break away from this monster. Keith is an incredibly powerful psychopath, and you can see it in these women's demeanors STILL. I won't forgive the things they did (and still do) to their fellow humans- particularly the attacks and harassment of the whistleblowers- but I'm also realizing how deep they're still "in". God bless Karen for waking up- her 40 years "in" will never be returned to her, but she can now work to figure out who she really is and what she wants out of life.
Also: Mark Agnifilo can justify is behavior as a "lawyer", but it won't help him look himself in the mirror. There's no way you can conduct yourself this way to keep a monster out of prison and still feel like a good person. Yes: everyone is entitled to a defense. No: It doesn't have to be YOU. Free will is a mother f*cker.
Why on earth was Keith willing to record audio of himself planning the branding? I mean I am thankful it’s there for the sake of his guilty verdict, but I never u understood this?
What truly bothers me more than anything is they continue to say there is no victims, everyone is lying and wouldn't acknowledge people were hurt and lives were destroyed. It's their right to follow Keith forever as they believe in him. But they themselves are heartless to talk against everyone who has left. I won't listen to anymore of what their saying as I have no respect for them. I'm truly sorry all of this happen to all of you. It's what you said before! Nobody joins a cult, you join a good thing . I wish you and Bonnie a wonderful future.
I didn't. I understand why she broke down like that, but...she was told by the judge about Lauren and was so offended and disagreed. The judge was right!
I was finally able to watch part 2. The one thing that got me with Kieth is the hair and the round glasses. Very John Lennon like or without glasses Jesus . he certainly acted like he was a god. My heart goes out to all who were hurt by Kieth. Also Mark you are good guy you choose Bonnie over your beliefs only a good man would do that.
I’m Mexican but living in the US for over 12 years now but I’m still upset that the high ranks in Mexico are free and nothing happened to them… I need they also have to be brought to justice
@@markvicente7 Michelle seemed to join NXIVM at a vulnerable time in her life, after a bad break up. Seems she is a follower and not a leader (not that there is anything wrong with that personality type, of bourse!) So hopefully her new husband can steer her into healthier waters.
Just that you think Raniere is delusional tells me that you have not worked through it all yet. He is and was NEVER unaware of what he was doing. I am sad you were all hurt so bad by this psychopath and I hope you are able to heal with time.
I haven't commented on this one before because I just can't with Nancy and her making it all about her "suffering" I"m sorry she has done this to herself but, I'm not buying into her crafted "sorrowful" take because she mostly seems upset at what SHE is going through. When she finally has to face up fully to what she did to others, I think I will be willing to listen to her more but, I just can't with her yet.
I'm late to the party on this nxvim stuff. What I want to know is if Nancy's NLP technique was somehow a form of hypnotism? Something Toni Natalie said about thinking she was in a room with KR for what she thought was maybe 15 min, someone else pointed out to her she was in the room with him for over an hour. Doesn't that sound like maybe she was hypnotized? Not much about this mentioned in either season
Two things: A) KR was always bad, abusive, and predatory; but he seems to have taken a darker turn in the later years. After Pam died, and in the footage even, there seems to be a shift in his behavior. Do you recall noticing this at the time? I’m curious if it only seems obvious now with all we know about dos and the escalation of victimization. B) I find it curious that those who are still on Keith’s side seem to have been very peripheral in terms of involvement in the group. Most of the closest individuals in his life have left. I wondered what your thoughts are. I also wonder what their counter arguments would look like against say Lauren’s testimony. The accusations they use against whistleblowers don’t apply to her as well? B)
Yes that is what they all do the little and the big one, they try to make you feel guilty… don’t let that under your skin!! I know what I am talking… this is what my brothers and my ex does…. Wanna let me look guilty!!! I know I am a good person with a good moral compass and I know who I am. My weaks my strength, my faults…. But I know what’s right or what’s wrong! I trust my self!!
So one of my other favorite docuseries is keep sweet, the documentary series about the flds and Keith being in jail and having all his followers still obey him and his wishes and still conducting teachings reminds me of warren Jeffs who is doing the same thing from his cell and not to mention they both have a lot in common. Seeing women as less than men, having harems of women (and not to be dismissive but I find it laughable that a group blowjob is female empowerment) controlling how women should look and also being total hypocrites. Like when you mentioned the sleep thing and in reality, Keith was sleeping during the day and doing nothing. Warren Jeff’s didn’t believe in secular thing or the color red is a sinful color yet when he was on the lamb, he had a red suv and was watching porn with his wives. But I love your insight on the episode. I can’t wait to hear how you feel about the Nancy interview and the rest of your letter.
Also you mentioned how Clare was always blamed for any wrongdoing by Keith because of the things with her dad and stuff, do you think that he’s doing a similar thing with nicki since I know in seduced, Catherine mentioned that nicki’s insta post on that Mexican sculpture was a factor on his arrest. I know in the vow the fédérale mentioned Allison’s presence in the area was another factor in determining that Keith was in the area. I personally believe he’s guilting nicki and maybe that’s just another layer of why she stays in.
Hi Mr Vicente it’s Lasha. I’ve been doing some more research on the entirety of the subject in which you articulate so well see you Cults. And I have been following the girls Nikki Klein and I watched India Oxenberg story and I did this I think I told you this I did all of this while I was in a wheelchair and I was so lost and I was so isolated and the recovery was so long and there was no money and now here I am walking and starting to feel like a human being again and so I understand what human suffering is like but I still even haven’t reached the state of joy and you think that I would because would half and to me was so rare there were times where I felt in lightened but trauma doesn’t fade and Keith and his teachings are just so incongruent with reality as it were my point is when he said you can’t love without pain and pain is love and love is pain and Alison Max said she would mind it whispered in her ear I just thought that was so sick when I think about what I’ve been through because some surgeon made a mistake and didn’t say anything for five months fact never said anything at all and that’s a culture I’ll I don’t even know what to call that he did not keep his oath as a surgeon to do no harm to a patient so when I think about when I went through with that and with Jenny Craig and having my Jenny Craig face and it was all scripture and you couldn’t even really think for yourself and then when I listen to all of the things that you study and the fascination that you have with humanity in behaviour and so on I’m really looking forward to more podcasts and you can’t watch Sara in Edmondson‘s and nephews Nippy I feel so weird calling him that because I don’t know him I tried to find their podcast but I can’t what I’m saying is I followed all of the stories like a whole panoramic view and I am UGGs absolutely stunned and shocked bewildered sick and sad and terrified for Nikki in those women and and Scott Elliot and Mark Elliot I remember messaging him like six years ago anyway thank you for all the information I just wanted to share away as well because your story is my story my story is your story when you think about it all of our stories are connected in some way and I’ve just found this whole thing so very sad and dumb but I do believe one thing when I listen to what all of you are done with your lives and recovering from that at such will power inner will power strong strength and so anybody who puts you down for saying how could you be a part of this or that look at what a highly intelligent person you are the only thing I don’t understand is I guess because people met him before huge social media the way it is now he is not a licensed philosopher nor scientist like what were his real credentials how did he hide that so well it’s unbelievable with the colour this tea was it was like a big long con and he had actors any put everybody in a role he put Sara as he was like a recruiter any put everybody in a rule found their vulnerabilities and used to them I I feel so bad for Alison and Mark and for Lauren Stolzman and for Nancy and for Barb and that woman Sandy I love that woman and she won every single case I can’t remember what my point was but I’m just to recover from all of that is amazing and then he had you as a filmmaker and Daniella used to film before you and the indoctrination is so deep I remember when I was “laid off from Jenny Craig“ I couldn’t believe the hype poor Chrissy and we were allowed the Jenny Craig people weren’t allowed to talk to us and it was so bizarre I didn’t even know that I that that’s what that was on till this sorry that sounded like word vomit let’s just say my subconscious came to consciousSo I just wanna thank you and your wife
Don't you think that everyone needed time to really unwrap their heads around what they have gotten involved in. We see Nancy slowly unwrap during this season. I imagine It takes time to extricate yourself from this
Keith’s lawyer gives me the heebie jeebies. i think there’s something … off… about him. Just sayin. You and him in the bathroom… sounds like it came from a movie
There's too much to comment on with regards to KR and his psychopathy, his sociopath moron of a lawyer etc. This, that I'm about to say, is meant to be constructive criticism for the prosecuting attorney. She needs voice coaching. Her tight, in the throat voice, took away from her credibility. I hope someone helps her with it. She's smart and really gets what's going on in the case. Her voice will hold her back if she doesn't work on it.
13:56. Ha ha, nice word-play. Man=Human. A Woman is a special type of Human. In more modern times we have come to equate Man to Male, but Man refers to the species, well, it used to. In old English wer and wif were the different sexes of Man the species.
aw mark i feel bad for you. but don't pity them too much. waking up to a deception like this is so much worse than getting branded or giving blowjobs or being starved or ripped off or anything. waking up to such an evil is worse than anything. so don't feel bad for women who didn't wake up! be glad for them they were unable to suffer more! the mind is only capable of so much suffering. most people, women or not, just don't have a flexible mind. in a way, it's natural that would happen to them.
After watching this I feel like maybe I judged you a bit too hard. I can only imagine what your deprogramming journey has been and even the. I’m sure it doesn’t scratch the surface.
u said u offered u thought, what if Keith was a good guy? are u really this lost? hes a good and bad guy, just like u. and me. and the women in this trial, that's correct, there not victims who had good perfect intentions, they're good and bad too. were all capable of both. I seriously pray for us all, cause this trial shows exactly how sad this world is. Keith seemed to have a part of him where he did use his ability to help to get women to like him and have sex w them. but calling him a monster is turning u in to a monster urself. u see the world in such a childish way. it makes u such a kind man , but u are so lost. I'm no better but this trial is so clear and all of u wamted to make the world a better place, and u all did so much.good for so long. and then a few people like a katherine oxenberg got dropped by her boy toy amd all of a sudden wants her daughter in her life, so she uses her power and victimhood so well. if u dont forgive keith personally it would be a mistake. the whole branding wasnt criminal. it was stupid , corny, but so are a lot of things . I have no connection to any of us, but u all did so much many great things and still have the potential to do exactly what u wanted, change the world for the better, but this whole trial is disgusting. and if u love laws so much, then ur all going to jail for rico charges. the minute u built keith in to a god u couldnt challenge, instead of just a man this is what happened. this whole great organization had problems that needed to be fixed, but ur throwing all the good away . so stupid. and calling Keith a monster is making all of u in to monsters.
You seem to miss the entire point of deconstructing an actual cult built on the foundation of one man’s nefarious intentions and I’m guessing you probably see a lot of yourself in Keith which is what makes it so easy to defend him Good luck with this point of view on the world, I know you hope it shields you - it doesn’t
It is so easy for malevolent actors, like Keith, to do what they want when people like you have seem very wishy-washy about what is ethical, moral, decent &/or legal.
I sincerely feel for nippy, navy salzman, and Mark's wife, each seems to actual have morals. but raniere is a man, a flawed man who probably was given more power than anyone should have. and power definitely corrupts. but mark Vicente, I'm pretty sure ur the best victim I've ever seen. I dont think ur a bad man. but u guys thinking raniere was a god was u being naive. seriously. stop playing urself and grow up
People take power from others, who are loathe to give it away. Corruption comes from weakness, insofar as it amounts to attempts appear powerful under false pretenses
Oh how I wish there could have been cameras in the court room! This trial would have been fascinating to watch real time! I have so much respect for you Mark and every person that had the courage to walk away from this cult and try to rescue as many as you could.
They reaped reward while they could, then ran when that ended, before posing as 'victims' to reap more reward: protection from prosecution, then suing remaining members for recompense, even though they were as much or more sinning against than being sinned against
@@raynehell1217???
@@raynehell1217 🙄🧐🤨
Do you realize that you have.changed the world. The impact you have had is incredible. You should be proud of that, give yourself due credit. Your a great man!!
Hi Mark. I’m so glad you and Bonnie are out, and doing great things. My favorite part of The Vow was when you found stuff in storage. She said something like “I must tell the rebels” or similar. It was a glimmer in all the dead dirt. Thanks again. PS I love What the Bleep !
Thank you for making this. I heard you on Dr Ramani's podcast as I learn about narcissism. The whole story fascinates me because I now see the patterns and the games these people play with other's lives.
I have not seen the vow yet but I heard the lawyer speak on the CBC podcast showing Sarah's perspective and you took the words out of my mouth: he bought it!
At first I thought: tell me you don't know about coersive control without telling me you don't know about coersive control. But then the more he spoke my hair stood on end and I became angry and then it hit me how Keith had brainwashed him the same way he had others. How his charm (blergh narcissist) and his whole spiel fooled him. It makes me angry to hear him say all this because it takes so much wway from those who were hurt.
It is not an easy story but actually, I have to thank you personally because you told Dr Ramani that speaking out was the scariest thing you have ever done but also the best. This pushed me to speak up about my narcissistic therapist to the overseeing board. We will see.
What you all did is incredible and I feel relief to know it worked and you can focus on healing.
Mark and Bonnie, you are changing the world. Thank you 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Bravo for waking up. It takes guts to admit and to do the right thing to fix. It's all part a big awakening in our time.
Hi Mark. You impressed me so much while watching the Vow (part 1), that I always listened to podcasts when I saw you were the guest. I wish you and Bonnie all the best.
Thank You
Hello! I have watched both seasons of The Vow, and I am so happy that you survived, and more importantly your marriage! Little things in life test every facet of our beings, but to overcome what you have and to maintain your marriage, all while helping many women to escape this "mad man" is highly commendable! God Bless both you and Bonnie! P.S. Tell Bonnie I am the hugest Star Wars geek!
I studied law for a year at university. When I spoke candidly to barristers, as I was aiming to be a barrister, they talked me out of a career in law. I changed to Linguistics and did a BA in that. One barrister told me he didn’t think I could stand defending a guilty person who had some some awful stuff. He was right.
My whole life I've been told I would have been a brilliant lawyer. I couldn't do it for the same reason you couldn't. I reverence truth and honesty.
You are 200% correct that Agnifolo was brain washed!! I thought that the whole time! When he said KR said to him " my life is in your hands" it screamed that he was sucked in.
And he parroted KR's word salad justifications, instead of attacking the 'sex trafficking' with no money involved precedent - or book reports as 'forced labor'. He wasn't thinking of the legal logistics. 'It's not charged' he says repeatedly, what was charged then? Sex trafficking and racketeering.
This. The cult leader got under his skin and into his head for sure.
I just watched this! Cannot wait to listen to your commentary! What a cliffhanger!! PS Bonnie is so extremely brave! But, you know that!!!
Thank you so much for doing these. The past few years I have been trying to leave abusive, cult-like situations, and these podcasts are helping more than you can imagine. Thank you again.
I love what you say at 22:00. Their level of tenacity/rigidity/inflexibility around their beliefs or “tech” does not invite/allow for doubt/nuance/inquiry. They take a kind of comfort/refuge in that kind of absolutism. There is so much of this going around now. Your insights have far reaching implications for the world culture!
You and Bonnie are warriors. Hold Bonnie tight, she’s a good women who helped you get out and keeps you balanced, never let her go.
That's the truth!
@@markvicente7 love you mark. If you find a movement that has the good benefits of nxivm that’s actually not a cult or brainwashing network, let me know, because some of the things that enticed you to nxivm look great. Like community, friendship etc…it’s hard to find in this age of technology. I’m halfway kidding, but I understand how these things can be drawing and enticing to all types of people. It’s the psychos in the back pulling the strings that ruin a lot of things that could of been good, but after all these things coming out I wouldn’t trust joining any type of group. I do need friends though, if you ever need an extra female actress or extra in one of your movies let me know. I’d love to get on a project or help out with something. I have dated a psychopath before, but I know that’s not the criteria for your current film. If you ever need any other stories let us all know, because I’ve been through a whole lot of love to be able to share one day.
I'm just so so glad Raneire chose to go to trial. That way he rec'd the max sentence.
I only just found these debriefs. I'm glad you discussed Allison Mack's apology. I was a huge fan of her prior to her arrest but when I read her apology the thing that jumped out at me is that it felt written by a lawyer and not actually a heartfelt apology. I do hope I'm wrong and that she's actually trying to process what she did because I'm a big believer in redemption, but that apology felt too polished.
Thank you for sharing your story. This topic of NXIVM really struck me, I think because I was in a close relationship with an abusive narcissist for years. KR's demeanor, speaking, etc. makes my blood run cold because of how similar it is. If my ex were more organized he could have created something similar. I understand all too well how easy it is to be taken in by someone like that. I hope as a society we can learn more about the early development of such individuals so we can avoid creating more of them.
I have now watched Seasons 1 and 2 of The Vow twice each, all the way through. I just wanna say to you Mark, thank you, thank you, thank you. I think what you did was so frickin hard and scary. But so many possible future victims are now safe and won't be victims because you walked through the fire until KR was behind bars. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I Love the fact that you’re doing this show. I’m 23 and in all my years this is one of the most fascinating topics I’ve ever delved into. The vow season 1 was so eye opening. Not to the extent of Kieth Raniere, but I feel like we all know someone who can’t ever admit they are wrong. That is the scary part to me.
Mark, I don't know you personally, but it heartens me to know that you are finding solace in the support you're getting from the online community. You seem like a genuinely good soul and really smart and I wish you and Bonnie healing and happiness.
Mark, in one episode of season one, you said, with tears, that no one join a cult, they join a group of people trying do good thing, and you no longer know what is right what is wrong. I was so touched by your words. I'm living in China now and never joined a cult. But after reading and practicing so many self help methods from books, I no longer know what is wrong or right. My value system and my common sense are messed up. Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Keep on going.
Another great pod ! The relief when I don’t have to trawl through Netflix to find something to watch and I can watch this instead - something I’m actually fascinated by. First may I congratulate you on the wonderful tonal quality of your video, the T shirt, the glasses, the mirror, the eyes, the wall and skin tone - it’s so pleasing ! 😂 I really want to know more about how you guys confused them on your plans after you left! 🕵️ The whole meta data thing they are hanging on to is so frustrating - I hope the doc quashes that once and for all 🙏 for me one of his emails to Ivy was all that I needed to know he was evil or his texts to Camilla. Can’t wait to read your book ! Many thanks for the content once again ❤️
I'm so glad to hear someone say Agnifilo was brainwashed because I felt it deeply and I have tried to see if he ever came out of it. In a different episode it seems he starts to.
Incredible rundown! I especially commend you Mark for your comments about the impact of coercive control in cults. Knowing about coercive control and indoctrination is extremely important to know when analyzing Nxivm or any cult for that matter. I’ve noticed a lot of people doing that when talking about DOS or Nxivm at large saying it was all consensual or that people who fell for Keith Raniere’s tricks are stupid when that’s the furthest from the truth. Thank you so much for all you do Mark and I look forward to more episodes!
Mark, your sense of humor absolutely slays me! 😂 Your honesty and bravery is a victory in itself. Blessings. ❤️
Thanks so much Mark. Where can we find the Court transcripts? You are so brave to stand up and speak the truth. Being so deeply betrayed by a man you saw as a friend and mentor would shred most people into inaction.
Love you mark. So happy you’re taking this awful event that happened to you and spreading awareness and trying to help others ❤
I got told to watch as much as I can on this to save me from ending up in a weird situation which is heading this way - so thank you :) It's really showing me what is happening!
Glad it was helpful!
So happy you’re doing this! Sending you much love!
Thank you so much!! xo
I am fascinated by cult stories and this was such a wild ride. All of you are brave to speak out about your experiences and the insidious acts done by Raniere and Nancy Saltzman.
I don't think Nicki will ever break away from Keith. I honestly believe at this point that she won't come back from this because she's still so brainwashed. It's really sad to hear her defending Keith. I noticed when she said she was proud of her decisions in this episode that she didn't sound like she was proud of them. She was speaking in a tone that was anything but confident and it almost sounded like a question.
I may have said this in another comment in one of these videos, but I find it very interesting that the man who said we will not choose to be victim is now acting and behaving like a victim. Nicki is treating him and portraying him like a victim. She goes to anyone that will listen to her and keeps talking about how poor innocent Keith is having all of this trouble in prison. It's prison. Prisons often have to keep child abusers away from the rest of the prisoners. He is getting hate becuase of that. Nicki continues to say Keith didn't do anything wrong and the government set him up. It's always someone else's fault when it comes to narcissists. They don't know how to take responsibility or accountability for their actions.
Just finished watching the whole season.
I found the remaining follower's "composure" to be quite unsettling to be honest. They didn't seem to be human to me, and I was very uncomfortable with almost everything they said.
Mark I’m so happy to see you have your own podcast and are talking about this. I wish much love to you and Bonnie.💜
Even as I watched the most recent episode of season 2 episode 4 and all that’s come out about dos and the truth of what Keith was really doing. I’m still shocked that he has women fervently supporting him and it’s sad to see women like Nikki clyne who claims what she is doing is her choice and for her she doing it for personal growth when in reality it’s just down to Keith ranieres sexual preferences and need to control these women. There are two types of people I think, those that wake up and those that don’t. Those awake know the truth and trying to get those who are not to wake up is never easy because we can see the reality and they can’t or won’t so when they try and defend this man from that viewpoint that is why they won’t get anywhere. How is a man telling her how many calories to eat, how thin she needs to be and the way she has to obey him, his god damn initials on her groin how is that for personal growth??! For her to sit and say that no one would care if men were doing it. What a ridiculous thing to say. I doubt they are being made to have group sex! This is not female empowerment, that is women ultimately being controlled by a man and for what? Sex and power. He liked having power and control over people. That’s what it came down to. The “collateral” is the difference, which is blackmail and that’s why it’s criminal. That’s is not consent. That is not okay. Nothing dos was doing which was so many despicable things, was okay. The criminal complaint took me months to get through. I understand she’s still clearly in a cult mindset because if she wasn’t she would see how completely wrong this picture is. She reminds me of the Manson girls who all stuck with him for years after he was arrested and seeing them with crosses cut into their foreheads and shaved heads whilst they maintained what a great man he was. I really don’t see any difference with those girls and women like Nikki clyne. Anyone who still hasn’t separated from nxivm or Keith because they believe he’s such a great ethical being, I just hope they wake up one day and get help. I’ll never understand why anyone saw anything in Keith, he would be nothing without the amazing work of the community that did all the work for him and the credibility they all gave him. Some of them gave up the best years of their lives based on Keith’s false promises of children, or relationships etc, he is psychopath and a malignant force in the world and I’m glad he will never get out of prison.
Its so important that you have made this series of videos. alot of people are leaving other cults and your videos are helping them - INcluding Sarah and Nippy.
It’s so interesting hearing you and watching you now with this clarity and you look so much healthier than the person I saw in the Vow, particularly in season 1. You looked so hollow and lacking in identity and it was so sad to watch, but you look so much healthier mentally now and it’s so good to see!
Thank you Mark. Keep up the good work-you are appreciated.
❤your so brave when I was 14 I was recruited into a cult called the Moonies I still to this day don’t understand how I fell for such idiotic crap but then looking back I probably couldn’t of got out of it when I did I’m so glad that you were able to see the light and let’s remind everybody who is here on this channel we are all vulnerable we are all potential victims and nobody is free from being scammed one way or another the only difference between me now and when I was 14 I don’t seek anything anymore outside of my own mind I don’t seek external stimulation or gratification I just seek to be the best person I can be and that keeps me safe from outside influences anyway well done Mark all of your hard work and tenacity thank you for your braveness
Great podcast! It left me wanting more
Glad you enjoyed it!
That was amazing Mark!! Great episode!
I have so many questions that are very niche. Here are 2:
1- why did Keith change his looks and cut his hair at some point.
2- I heard you mentionned once that all the names Keith gave to the programs were an inside joke to himself. Why was it called NXIVM? Why was it called Jness? Could you expand on what you found out? I thought it was fascinating.
Thanks! :)
Jness sounds like the French word for youth, "jeuness" which was what I assumed was the hidden statement, again, of the preference for the nubile
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I really appreciate it because I’m having trouble processing the hideous information that’s revealed during the trial (just watched episode 2). That said, take all the time you need to recover from each episode release. I just listened to your episode 2 debrief and I absolutely understand the need to do a gentle retreat especially after that episode.
Hi Mark! I happy to mow that you and Bonnie are doing well and that you are healing through sharing your experiences in this cult (I know Nancy said there is no definition for the word, but sure there is a she is part in creating one). I was very confused that Nancy is part of the Vow season 2 or I should say the portrayal of her part in the whole thing. It seems to me that she is claiming to be a victim and not know what was happening, which I don’t believe at all!! But also very surprised that the HBO producers are letting her off the hook and run with it, so I’m very interested in your opinion about that.
HBO pandered to a few people's subjectively selective supposed 'truths' from the get go. Why would they change that for Season 2?
@@raynehell1217 I see someone still supports Keith and his cult.
@@AlwaysAnonymously Far from it. HBO's The Vow has if anything been too soft on them, due to their reliance on a small number of ex-members for most of their content. At least in series one (I've yet to see series two). Is there any mention of possible murders they committed, for instance?
I wish they released all episodes
It was just so crazy to me to how Nikki is still so entrenched. Im heartbroken for her. The way she was sniffing his damn jacket, not even sure it was really his. She seems almost deranged. Like a different person than she was 15 years ago.
She's been HBO'd
Mark, I hope you realize that all the women in DOS, would eventually be “expendable.”You saved their lives, and future members.
Thank You.
He is not delusional. Definitely. He says what he thinks has an effect. It is the only way he can use the language. He doesn't function like you.
Thank you for sharing all this.
If that’s Bonnie working out in the reflection in the t.v tell her thank you for getting your husband out of there and starting this awakening to get out to the people you care about. I believe you are a key player to this and helped a lot of people.
I'm a lawyer. It is not true that lawyers can lie in court. We have a duty of Candor to the Tribunal as officers of the court. This is found in rule of professional responsibility 3.3.
You look so much more healthy now that you are out. And you look happier. And calmer. I hope you have gained the confidence in yourself and will just research your own questions and ask real experts if you have a question. And I know more than likely you will vet people now before you believe in their qualifications before you just take them at their word. Because of how Keith Raniere lied about being a karate expert and classical pianist and karate expert and scientist, etc. I’m so happy you and your wife Bonnie got out.
The term "tech", as used by NXIVM & Scientology, is so grating to me.
Philosophy, religion, ethics lessons,, way of being, etc. are all much more accurate verbiage. They use the term "tech" to make it seem scientific and more credible as well as quietly playing to one's secret desire to be seen as just a bit smarter than others.
The disconnect these women had is still so shocking. They were in a "relationship" with Keith but could not talk about it to others or be publicly acknowledged by their love. The ones who knew he was not monogamous had to remain so all while telling the world how ethical he was!! Wow....
I’m watching this now two months after watching season 2. Three things stood out to me about season 2:
1. I still don’t know how to feel about Nancy and the fact that she said she holds more anger towards Sarah kind of made me less sympathetic. I’m aware that she is still grappling with waking up but she seems defensive still and maybe not wanting to take as much accountability as she should.
2. A black woman being part of this and holding on to the ideals of this cult. While I was watching her I kept thinking that maybe she’s holding on so strongly because admitting to herself that she was willing to participate in this master slave relationships is harder. It’s so bizarre. Specially when Raniere seems kind of racist. I’m 💯 sure he did not seek out a relationship with her. He was surrounded by skinny white women and white passing hispanics. It’s such a dichotomy to see her being participant and still holding on. That blew my mind.
3. The longer the trial went Raniere’s layer seemed more and more dejected. I bet he was a nightmare of a client. Manipulative and not disclosing everything. And I bet he was controlling as hell.
One person I really felt sorry for was Nicki. She seems like a lost soul. I hope she wakes up and gets the help she needs. I don’t know if she was as awful as Allison and Lauren (I know they were completely manipulated but they also committed abuse to others) but she has this childlike air to her. At least that’s how it came across to me. I just felt bad for her.
I’m glad you guys are putting all this out there to educate people. I’ve never been part of a straight up cult but back in my native country I was part of a church that adopted this doctrine that turned out to be a massive pyramid scheme. I listened to my gut and left before everything exploded but they were also not programming us to not listen to our gut. It was called G12 in South America.
after watching the first season, seeing how far the women's group went, I wonder what the men's group were supposed to end up doing. Mark do you have any theories?
Yo ! The song during the credits rolling. What’s the name of it and who sings it..? Shit was crazy!!🔥🔥🔥🔥
You know, I know that everyone tried really hard to get India out, and eventually she was out. But when I was watching the whole "Seduced" series, I really couldn't help but think that she was editing a lot of details to not be perjuring herself in the court of public opinion and had changed her story around a lot to seem like she didn't know what was going on and was just doing what she was told blindly. But I honestly think she was continuing with DOS because of the collateral and also, was aware that she was already in trouble for all the things she was told to do. When she was telling the story, it just seems like she didn't want to get in trouble with Ali or the law so she kept going as long as she could until it really was safe to get out. I just feel like she could have been honest about it. Because yes, she was also a victim, but she was not just a victim, she was aware of what was going on and thats the part that I get vibes from. I just can't get over the feeling of her knowing a lot more about what was going on and she couldn't leave until people weren't holding collateral over her head. I just can't shake it. I usually follow my instincts about people and theyre screaming at me that she was being portrayed one way when really, she was a lot more aware than she was letting on, but if she admitted that then she could be held culpable and not be considered brainwashed.
This is just my personal opinion. Ive watched The Vow, Seduced, The Lost Women of Nxivm, Cults and Extreme Beliefs: Nxivm, at least 5 times each. Listened to podcasts and UA-cam videos about it. Interviews. Read the trial transcripts twice. And I really like and feel for India, but I have a different opinion of her than I do of Mark or Sara or Nippy or Isabella. I just feel like that series tries to put her in a different light and makes sure the world knows she was a victim and not responsible for her actions. Which is smart, she didn't want to get charged like Lauren and Allison. But I think she knew that she would have been charged if she didn't turn those drives in and bring all the evidence to the state. And that was the right thing to do.
I don't know where im going with this, but I just have to get my feelings out there. I feel for her and absolutely love her mother, but I just keep feeling like she spun it a little differently to keep herself out of jail, and I can't blame her for that. But that's just my opinion. Im glad to see the first episode of seduced is on UA-cam, and that I am not the only one over here thinking about this.
Edit: my gosh ive got videos on a playlist to play as I'm walking around doing stuff and I was commenting on the first episode of "Seduced" and this video was next up in the queue and it changed over as I was posting it 😬 but because it is sort of related (I mean, it's the same subject and people, so.. related haha) I think I am going to leave it here too and just copy it for the last video. But Mark, you and Bonnie rock 🖤🖖
I had exactly the same thought - we DO know why you're bad Keith Renire, you ruined people's lives.
Right!?
This episode of the Vow was unexpectedly hard for me to watch. Nikki and Michelle seemed wooden, rote and really, really sad to me...and I want so badly for them to get the support they need to break away from this monster. Keith is an incredibly powerful psychopath, and you can see it in these women's demeanors STILL. I won't forgive the things they did (and still do) to their fellow humans- particularly the attacks and harassment of the whistleblowers- but I'm also realizing how deep they're still "in". God bless Karen for waking up- her 40 years "in" will never be returned to her, but she can now work to figure out who she really is and what she wants out of life.
Also: Mark Agnifilo can justify is behavior as a "lawyer", but it won't help him look himself in the mirror. There's no way you can conduct yourself this way to keep a monster out of prison and still feel like a good person. Yes: everyone is entitled to a defense. No: It doesn't have to be YOU. Free will is a mother f*cker.
Are you watching the DOS commentary?
Why on earth was Keith willing to record audio of himself planning the branding? I mean I am thankful it’s there for the sake of his guilty verdict, but I never u understood this?
What truly bothers me more than anything is they continue to say there is no victims, everyone is lying and wouldn't acknowledge people were hurt and lives were destroyed. It's their right to follow Keith forever as they believe in him. But they themselves are heartless to talk against everyone who has left. I won't listen to anymore of what their saying as I have no respect for them. I'm truly sorry all of this happen to all of you. It's what you said before! Nobody joins a cult, you join a good thing . I wish you and Bonnie a wonderful future.
One woman openly exclaimed "I'm pregnant with KR's baby' at a module and she was removed from the classroom, and never seen again. No body found.
Mark just finished watch the last episode of the second season. I really cried and felt for Nancy. Wondering if you or anyone else felt the same?
I didn't. I understand why she broke down like that, but...she was told by the judge about Lauren and was so offended and disagreed. The judge was right!
I was finally able to watch part 2. The one thing that got me with Kieth is the hair and the round glasses. Very John Lennon like or without glasses Jesus . he certainly acted like he was a god. My heart goes out to all who were hurt by Kieth. Also Mark you are good guy you choose Bonnie over your beliefs only a good man would do that.
Also, what male sports team or military group gets "Branded" with a cauterizing tool with no anesthetic? (per the Defense) A tattoo is not a brand.
I’m Mexican but living in the US for over 12 years now but I’m still upset that the high ranks in Mexico are free and nothing happened to them… I need they also have to be brought to justice
Where can I find a read the court transcripts from the trial
Did they play the dos branding video in court
Can you write a book please
Nicki Clyne has now disavowed Renerie, and Michelle Hatchett has recently married, so maybe her new husband will give her something new to focus on?
Let's hope so - right?
@@markvicente7 Michelle seemed to join NXIVM at a vulnerable time in her life, after a bad break up. Seems she is a follower and not a leader (not that there is anything wrong with that personality type, of bourse!) So hopefully her new husband can steer her into healthier waters.
My take on Agnifilo was different. High priced lawyer defending the indefensible.
Just that you think Raniere is delusional tells me that you have not worked through it all yet. He is and was NEVER unaware of what he was doing. I am sad you were all hurt so bad by this psychopath and I hope you are able to heal with time.
Hell is definitely real.
I haven't commented on this one before because I just can't with Nancy and her making it all about her "suffering" I"m sorry she has done this to herself but, I'm not buying into her crafted "sorrowful" take because she mostly seems upset at what SHE is going through. When she finally has to face up fully to what she did to others, I think I will be willing to listen to her more but, I just can't with her yet.
Is it because the attorneys are not actually witnesses and therefore not under oath?
Been watching the vow and rewatching thinking why and how people can’t see that what they are doing is wrong like you and others
So many reasons! Betrayal Blindness, Trauma Bonding, Trance-like thinking that comes from Narcissistic Abuse. The list goes on and on!
If you are interested, Rick Ross 's book: "Cults Inside Out: How People Get in and Can Get Out" will answer many of your questions.
I'm late to the party on this nxvim stuff. What I want to know is if Nancy's NLP technique was somehow a form of hypnotism? Something Toni Natalie said about thinking she was in a room with KR for what she thought was maybe 15 min, someone else pointed out to her she was in the room with him for over an hour. Doesn't that sound like maybe she was hypnotized? Not much about this mentioned in either season
How come you aren’t in this season 😮 I loved season 1.
Two things:
A) KR was always bad, abusive, and predatory; but he seems to have taken a darker turn in the later years. After Pam died, and in the footage even, there seems to be a shift in his behavior. Do you recall noticing this at the time? I’m curious if it only seems obvious now with all we know about dos and the escalation of victimization.
B) I find it curious that those who are still on Keith’s side seem to have been very peripheral in terms of involvement in the group. Most of the closest individuals in his life have left. I wondered what your thoughts are. I also wonder what their counter arguments would look like against say Lauren’s testimony. The accusations they use against whistleblowers don’t apply to her as well?
B)
Yes that is what they all do the little and the big one, they try to make you feel guilty… don’t let that under your skin!! I know what I am talking… this is what my brothers and my ex does…. Wanna let me look guilty!!! I know I am a good person with a good moral compass and I know who I am. My weaks my strength, my faults…. But I know what’s right or what’s wrong! I trust my self!!
So one of my other favorite docuseries is keep sweet, the documentary series about the flds and Keith being in jail and having all his followers still obey him and his wishes and still conducting teachings reminds me of warren Jeffs who is doing the same thing from his cell and not to mention they both have a lot in common. Seeing women as less than men, having harems of women (and not to be dismissive but I find it laughable that a group blowjob is female empowerment) controlling how women should look and also being total hypocrites. Like when you mentioned the sleep thing and in reality, Keith was sleeping during the day and doing nothing. Warren Jeff’s didn’t believe in secular thing or the color red is a sinful color yet when he was on the lamb, he had a red suv and was watching porn with his wives.
But I love your insight on the episode. I can’t wait to hear how you feel about the Nancy interview and the rest of your letter.
Also you mentioned how Clare was always blamed for any wrongdoing by Keith because of the things with her dad and stuff, do you think that he’s doing a similar thing with nicki since I know in seduced, Catherine mentioned that nicki’s insta post on that Mexican sculpture was a factor on his arrest. I know in the vow the fédérale mentioned Allison’s presence in the area was another factor in determining that Keith was in the area. I personally believe he’s guilting nicki and maybe that’s just another layer of why she stays in.
Absolutely!
People break vows all the time. That's what happens when one gets divorced.
Hi Mr Vicente it’s Lasha. I’ve been doing some more research on the entirety of the subject in which you articulate so well see you Cults. And I have been following the girls Nikki Klein and I watched India Oxenberg story and I did this I think I told you this I did all of this while I was in a wheelchair and I was so lost and I was so isolated and the recovery was so long and there was no money and now here I am walking and starting to feel like a human being again and so I understand what human suffering is like but I still even haven’t reached the state of joy and you think that I would because would half and to me was so rare there were times where I felt in lightened but trauma doesn’t fade and Keith and his teachings are just so incongruent with reality as it were my point is when he said you can’t love without pain and pain is love and love is pain and Alison Max said she would mind it whispered in her ear I just thought that was so sick when I think about what I’ve been through because some surgeon made a mistake and didn’t say anything for five months fact never said anything at all and that’s a culture I’ll I don’t even know what to call that he did not keep his oath as a surgeon to do no harm to a patient so when I think about when I went through with that and with Jenny Craig and having my Jenny Craig face and it was all scripture and you couldn’t even really think for yourself and then when I listen to all of the things that you study and the fascination that you have with humanity in behaviour and so on I’m really looking forward to more podcasts and you can’t watch Sara in Edmondson‘s and nephews Nippy I feel so weird calling him that because I don’t know him I tried to find their podcast but I can’t what I’m saying is I followed all of the stories like a whole panoramic view and I am UGGs absolutely stunned and shocked bewildered sick and sad and terrified for Nikki in those women and and Scott Elliot and Mark Elliot I remember messaging him like six years ago anyway thank you for all the information I just wanted to share away as well because your story is my story my story is your story when you think about it all of our stories are connected in some way and I’ve just found this whole thing so very sad and dumb but I do believe one thing when I listen to what all of you are done with your lives and recovering from that at such will power inner will power strong strength and so anybody who puts you down for saying how could you be a part of this or that look at what a highly intelligent person you are the only thing I don’t understand is I guess because people met him before huge social media the way it is now he is not a licensed philosopher nor scientist like what were his real credentials how did he hide that so well it’s unbelievable with the colour this tea was it was like a big long con and he had actors any put everybody in a role he put Sara as he was like a recruiter any put everybody in a rule found their vulnerabilities and used to them I I feel so bad for Alison and Mark and for Lauren Stolzman and for Nancy and for Barb and that woman Sandy I love that woman and she won every single case I can’t remember what my point was but I’m just to recover from all of that is amazing and then he had you as a filmmaker and Daniella used to film before you and the indoctrination is so deep I remember when I was “laid off from Jenny Craig“ I couldn’t believe the hype poor Chrissy and we were allowed the Jenny Craig people weren’t allowed to talk to us and it was so bizarre I didn’t even know that I that that’s what that was on till this sorry that sounded like word vomit let’s just say my subconscious came to consciousSo I just wanna thank you and your wife
Que guapo es este tipo my dios santo
Don't you think that everyone needed time to really unwrap their heads around what they have gotten involved in. We see Nancy slowly unwrap during this season. I imagine It takes time to extricate yourself from this
Keith’s lawyer gives me the heebie jeebies. i think there’s something … off… about him. Just sayin. You and him in the bathroom… sounds like it came from a movie
There's too much to comment on with regards to KR and his psychopathy, his sociopath moron of a lawyer etc. This, that I'm about to say, is meant to be constructive criticism for the prosecuting attorney. She needs voice coaching. Her tight, in the throat voice, took away from her credibility. I hope someone helps her with it. She's smart and really gets what's going on in the case. Her voice will hold her back if she doesn't work on it.
in regards to defense lawyers vs wittness telling truth, its bc the burden of proof is on the prosecution
13:56. Ha ha, nice word-play. Man=Human. A Woman is a special type of Human. In more modern times we have come to equate Man to Male, but Man refers to the species, well, it used to. In old English wer and wif were the different sexes of Man the species.
aw mark i feel bad for you. but don't pity them too much. waking up to a deception like this is so much worse than getting branded or giving blowjobs or being starved or ripped off or anything. waking up to such an evil is worse than anything. so don't feel bad for women who didn't wake up! be glad for them they were unable to suffer more! the mind is only capable of so much suffering. most people, women or not, just don't have a flexible mind. in a way, it's natural that would happen to them.
After watching this I feel like maybe I judged you a bit too hard. I can only imagine what your deprogramming journey has been and even the. I’m sure it doesn’t scratch the surface.
I didn’t like Nancy, I don’t believe her. She’s as guilty as Keith
Your excessive swearing is extremely low vibration.
u said u offered u thought, what if Keith was a good guy? are u really this lost? hes a good and bad guy, just like u. and me. and the women in this trial, that's correct, there not victims who had good perfect intentions, they're good and bad too. were all capable of both. I seriously pray for us all, cause this trial shows exactly how sad this world is. Keith seemed to have a part of him where he did use his ability to help to get women to like him and have sex w them. but calling him a monster is turning u in to a monster urself. u see the world in such a childish way. it makes u such a kind man , but u are so lost. I'm no better but this trial is so clear and all of u wamted to make the world a better place, and u all did so much.good for so long. and then a few people like a katherine oxenberg got dropped by her boy toy amd all of a sudden wants her daughter in her life, so she uses her power and victimhood so well. if u dont forgive keith personally it would be a mistake. the whole branding wasnt criminal. it was stupid , corny, but so are a lot of things . I have no connection to any of us, but u all did so much many great things and still have the potential to do exactly what u wanted, change the world for the better, but this whole trial is disgusting. and if u love laws so much, then ur all going to jail for rico charges. the minute u built keith in to a god u couldnt challenge, instead of just a man this is what happened. this whole great organization had problems that needed to be fixed, but ur throwing all the good away . so stupid. and calling Keith a monster is making all of u in to monsters.
You seem to miss the entire point of deconstructing an actual cult built on the foundation of one man’s nefarious intentions and I’m guessing you probably see a lot of yourself in Keith which is what makes it so easy to defend him
Good luck with this point of view on the world, I know you hope it shields you - it doesn’t
It is so easy for malevolent actors, like Keith, to do what they want when people like you have seem very wishy-washy about what is ethical, moral, decent &/or legal.
I sincerely feel for nippy, navy salzman, and Mark's wife, each seems to actual have morals. but raniere is a man, a flawed man who probably was given more power than anyone should have. and power definitely corrupts. but mark Vicente, I'm pretty sure ur the best victim I've ever seen. I dont think ur a bad man. but u guys thinking raniere was a god was u being naive. seriously. stop playing urself and grow up
People take power from others, who are loathe to give it away.
Corruption comes from weakness, insofar as it amounts to attempts appear powerful under false pretenses