"I used to think I was saving the world with Scientology. Now I think I'm saving the world From Scientology." - Mike Rinder I strongly believe these malignant organizations attract good-hearted people who then bring it to a stop. It's truly a beautiful process of the light winning over darkness like it always will.
I’ve been a “cult”/high demand organization student for years. Began with FLDS and have now read/watched every single book, shows, podcasts, UA-cam channels on all the things-Scientology, yoga, Nxvim, Jim Jones, Mormons, Lularoe, Way Down, Hillsong, JW, etc. etc. I have never been involved in any of these, I’m just fascinated by the workings of the human mind and the eternal search for community, for certainty, for answers, for improvement. I have such respect for these two gentlemen and all the brave voices who have spoken up with vigilance and compassion and unrelenting drive to bring the light and the truth. Thank you both.
Rarely have I clicked on a video so quickly. I am very glad to see NXIVM whistleblowers talking to Scientology whistleblowers. Obviously the groups are not exactly the same, but I think they have a lot more in common than they have differences. I think it's good that you guys are supporting and learning from each other.
I totally agree!! There are SO many similarities that would attract a similar type of person. As an improvement-oriented, non-religious person myself, these are the only two cults I could hypothetically see myself getting sucked into if I was the right age at the right time / before there was negative publicity. Absolutely fascinating conversation
I’ve been following the story of Mike Rinder for a while now. He’s a very brave man & I admire his courage. I kind of love that he’s your first podcast guest. I believe that by keeping the conversation going you will continually bring the truth to light. Bravo!!
Coming from a narcissist family who used religion as a tool for control, so much of this hits home and is comforting to hear people talking openly about it. Thank you, both.
My children and I live a mile from one of NXIVM homes. I kept an eye on my kids and everyone else's because I grew up with all kinds of abuse and felt like something was lurking. I cannot believe how close this evil was. I dont relish having been right but was so ostracized for being hyper aware. The kids in my neighborhood ('trash' as Maxwell would call them) would have fought against bars but then walk right into the manipulation involved in these things. I appreciate hearing grown men speak about the mental abuse being so real. Thank you.
Mark- I just want to say thank you to both you and Mike, as well as all of the other brave souls who are JUST that- brave souls- to literally be in Hell on earth and somehow find the strength to pull your souls out of the depths of hell. It is just like the character in Stranger Things who fights for her soul and ultimately prevails over evil. I know you both still have a very long road of healing ahead of you, but many of us out here are praying for you all daily. Keep going! This IS now your purpose and your lifes work. Maybe, just maybe it all happens to certain people of soul strength TO be able to serve as healers. GOD bless.
I ve been following Mike Rinder for years-and have read his amazing book. This is by far, the most authentic, informative and wise interview with him I’ve seen yet. You guys are an amazing team.
This was incredible! Thank you both! As a writer I especially loved Mike talking about his "editing/therapy" process and the anxieties he had to work through as he was writing, the "holes he didn't want to go down" I think Mark put it. Such a valuable conversation!! 💛🙏✌
Love Mike Rinder! He is a true inspiration! His perseverance , fortitude and tenacity through all he has been through is nothing short of incredible/incredulous! The candor in which he narrates his life story is truly humbling and admirable! I purchased the audible version and it is the best book I’ve ever „read“
The book writing is the same with me. OMG. I keep stopping because of the trapped nightmares. It took forever to get out of the emotionless I did this, he did that sort of thing. I wasn't in a cult. But I did have narcissistic abuse. I couldn't even write about me. I had to write about my domestic violence and child abuse patients. Those are amazing insights.
Excellent book and well written! It is an incredible story of perseverance, yet heartbreaking. I also had that reaction of ‘get out! Get out! Get out!’. Thankfully he did! I hope his children get out one day too. Edit: the fact that Keith Rainieri still has followers is crazy, but not surprising. Charles Manson did too after he went to jail and did up until he died.
I agree with Mark that the 2nd season of The Vow went rather easy on Nancy Salzman. She was an enforcer for Raniere (which she touches on), but she also made buckets of money from ESP/NXIVM. When her house was raided they found an astonishing load of cash. She knew she was breaking laws.
Not to mention the emotional abuse she visited on people. Some will excuse that, saying it was all at Raniere's behest. But even so, I think she enjoyed the power rush of her "Prefect" status. And I think, just a personal hunch, that if she had not joined a cult proper, she would still have been an emotionally abusive person to be around. Some people who've had moral injuries identify with her. But I wonder if they're being entirely fair on themselves. Because I don't think the injuries NS had, as shown on The Vow, were moral injuries. They were consequence injuries, which are real. Her emotions were real. But they were all for herself. To this day, I don't think other people factor into her thinking at all, unless someone forces it by asking her uncomfortable questions.
The Vow and Mark’s podcast have helped me realise that not only was my mother probably a narcissist, but also that I gee up in a high control environment. Thanks!
Mark - I found you because I am a Mike Rinder fan and supporter. Judging by this interview, I think you definitely should do more interviews because you are gifted in that area. Building background, asking pointed questions, and allowing your guest to answer the question fully and completely. This has been my favorite interview with Mike. You earned a subscription with this podcast. You are a natural.
Mark said he could go on talking to Mike forever. I could listen to Mike or Mark talk forever. Both of you talking is just a wonderful bonus. Thank you both so much for all that you do. It does matter! Keep up the great work!
Mark, i remember in The Vow your mother being a little bit harsh on the phone with you, along the lines of "good, now you can stop giving all your time to that bullshit". If you do another Q&A i'd like to know, how did your family respond to the whole thing? It sounds like your mother was aware that what you were in wasn't healthy. And what was it like for them having the whole thing exposed in the media?
“What did you do to pull it in?” I had a friend who was in no way associated with Scientology and he insisted that in personal conflicts of any kind, each party was equally culpable. 50/50 he said. It got to be too much.
I too have never belonged to a cult but have watched a few of these types of channels where members of Scientology have broken free with interest and empathy. Mike Rinder is a great explainer and the conversation between you two is very insightful. Given the right circumstances, I can understand how people get pulled into a cults and congratulations on finding your purpose.
Insightful! What a pleasure from decades of pain! Having been a fervent member than defect; I would come to a realization, “ I just dedicated my life, 30-40 years to a scam! Where is the tallest building to jump off?”
I find Scientology fascinating because of LRH and his wild adventures combined with his formation of Scientology and the Sea Org. The legal battles and government battles. The elaborate properties. The flag orders…It’s just so deep snd complex and I never run out of new stuff to discover. It’s crazy! I HIGHLY recommend Rinder’s book
Mark, I found a very interesting thread among college students regarding A Capella Inovations. Keith himself commented in his usual word salad vernacular. Those college kids kinda handed Keith and everyone else commenting their asses. I would love to know what Keith said at the time. Any tender morsels you can give up will be quickly consumed as I am down the rabbit hole.
Mr.Vicente! It is soooo nice to see you back. Hopefully the break you took helped you clear your mind a bit from all of this constant recognition. You guys are freaking amazing and I am so glad that you are back and with such an enthusiasm about moving on. Great episode & great interview! Good to see you guys working together!
Mike and Mark, thank you so much for bringing the toxic snare of cults to public awareness. You give people still trapped the courage to go. I escaped a cult (Jehovah's Witnesses) where I invested 23 years of my life - I was a true believer, but now I've been out about an equal amount of time. I agree with Mike about psych help, I never found the right fit - it seems almost impossible for someone to "get" it unless they've either been in it or spent time close to it. On the other hand, there are prob many excellent therapists out there - I just couldn't find them. There were scant resources for cult victims back in 1996, but I stumbled "Cults In Our Midst" at the bookstore and that started breaking up my cognitive dissonance. Though I've recovered, the one thing that stills creeps back in sometimes are the regrets, for the wasted years and all the ways that has impacted my life and my children. Staying busy with personal growth and volunteering for good causes helps a lot (i don't JOIN anything, tho ;) ). Love you guys.
I watched this when it first came out and I just watched it again. Such a great conversation! And such a pleasure hearing Mike talking at length. I miss his voice out there. Here's to him feeling better soon and to all of us hearing from him again soon! #TeamMike
Yay! My old favorite (Mike Rinder!) and one of my new favorites! (Mark) (Not that Mike is ‘old’ chronologically, just that he’s been a crusader for a long time). 😊
Mike I LISTENED to your book as well as Leah's because I wanted to hear in your own words. It put me almost in those places with you. I've never been in a cult but I've been in bad places in my life. Your words helped me understand and come to terms with that trauma. Thank you for your hard work and sacrifice. ❤️🙏
I just finished listening Mike's book today and I started listening yesterday. It was really hard to pause for to sleep because it is so interesting and touching, especially the letter is touching me because I am a mom. I first bought ebook but when I heard in one of the YT videos that he narrates it himself in the audiobook, I had to get that as well. I absolutely recommend it to anyone who is interested in knowing about what was and is still going on inside of Scientology. I have been against Scientology based on everything I myself think about cults and cult like religions for almostt three decades but never knew the true depth of things. I have my fairly light experience of two different Christian churches with cult like treatment,which of one really ruined my grandpa's marriage. My step grandma gave all their money to the church and when my grandpa died and my dad and aunt gave step grandma money for a gravestone,it didn't happen. They waited for two years and eventually she stopped answering the calls and was never opening the door. So they had to buy it themselves. Later she paid it back but the trust was gone, and I had nothing to do with her after my grandpa's funeral. I was very disappointed and disgusted with her for that, because I had had a good relationship with her as a child, then she changed and all she talked about was the church but I had never thought she would do that. There also some other things that happened that I found out later,like she had attacked grandpa with knife and stuff like that. The other experience is mine. I was hanging with other teens in a cafe made specifically for this church. At first they were so nice and welcoming and I thought I found new friends. I went even to this summer event with them with thousands of people there talking about how good and welcoming they were and what good they do. Eventually however I ended up extremely lonely and abandoned after I was sort of made to, or asked to not to come back, because I refused to dive in their altar pool to be baptized or become a member of the church and I didn't otherwise fit into their A4 form, though "everyone is welcome" and "one doesn't have to join to come in our church" I also saw some things that I maybe shouldn't have. They were very manipulative. I was going there about 1 and half year until those "friends"just turned their back on me. Later on when I saw some of them, almost all of them had left the church. These my experiences are not very bad but they made me look into cult like religions more deeply and have also protected me from them. Sadly I still did fell into one more cult like thing, MLM. They have a very similar concept though they are not a religion. It is because I wasn't aware enough, the knowledge of it was not as widely spread on internet back then yet. Plus unfortunately I had seen a successful MLM story from aside, my earlier best friend's dad was a country rep for one very known MLM because he went in the right time,and became a millionaire. I got to enjoy some of the benefits of that, like skiing trips etc. He was also constantly trying to get me to join but I refused. Later on I joined another one by sort of accidentally joining their website while buying a product and thought that I can just as well try. I really shouldn't have because as anyone can guess,it left me in debt and feeling bad about myself. Well anyway these my experiences are not even close to the horrors these survivors of Scientology or NXIVM or some other violent cults have gone trough. To me one of the common nominators to all cults and alike is that they try to stop one from leaving or cut all the contact/ shun and make one feel very ashamed of leaving or not living to the expectations. The guilt play and manipulation are very strongly present, one starts to doubt oneself and believe everything what the leader or those in higher status says because they have to know better and I'm just not good enough,don't work enough, everything is my own fault and I just gotta try more and better. There's always that love bombing phase where everything is so wonderful and you are a special chosen one finding out a special secret.. how long it lasts varies. And then there's the isolation and mentally breaking a person down and then molding them to be a submissive follower who has no opinions , thoughts or needs. I hate cults and the way they break people, families and friendships. They are like a leech that gets stuck on you and slowly sucks you dry until your self or identity fades away.
I loved the focus on Nancy mostly because I’ve been so curious about her journey. Personally I would love a deep dive of many peoples journey - I’d watch infinite seasons. I’d love to see more about Barbra bushe and the other woman who dated Keith right when all of this started. Would also love seasons that dig into some of the suspicious deaths surrounding NXIVM also. Everyone’s story in this is fascinating and has a lot to teach us about manipulation and identity and cult psych. Thank you so much you guys. You’re hero’s to me and love hearing both of you discuss these topics. 💖💖💖
Both of you are absolutely making a difference exposing the insidious practices of these groups! The NXIVM case and prosecution of Keith is groundbreaking as far as the law. I hope that it set a president in the US justice system to hold these groups accountable. Thank you for all of your hard work guys and I hope you have best possible scenario with your work going forward. 💖💖💖
I love that mike is the first guest on wtf is on my mind, because you guys can relate to each other so well given your positions in each of the organizations you were in. Your episode on the fair game podcast is still one of my favorites. And i love that if anyone has seen john sweeney’s first doc on Scientology, mike looked scary and overworked and terrible and seeing him since then even in the second doc john Sweeney made, he looks so much better and genuinely sounds happy. Previously it sounded like he was forcing the happiness which he was but even though he still fighting the good fight, he is in a place of almost zen. I cannot wait to read his book especially since i just finished Sarah’s book.
The common thread through the therapy I've had was "write it down." #journaling Once you get the "thoughts" out of your head and onto paper/computer, the trauma can release, at least somewhat. Hopefully, Mike did this without realizing by writing his book! The memories can be recalled in the writing if you need them, but they are not living in your brain anymore. Not saying this would work for everyone, but it is a beginning. Thank you both for this great interview! #FreeYourMind
I remember watching the movie Escape from Sobibor and at the end when people are escaping the concentration camp kone character was screaming at some people to run and they just stood in confusion and couldn’t run. That is what I think about when hear you say some people don’t want to be saved. Maybe they are too damaged to go.
Fantastic podcast. I'm such a "fan" of Mike ( is that weird, i don't know, maybe i should call it admiration?) and of course i've watched the Vow as well. I've had my personal ( very negative) experience with Scientology, and like said, it's remarkably similar. Thanks for this great conversation, i enjoyed it a lot.
I feel so close to both of you guys and the other vocal survivors of NXIVM and Scientology. You have become like my brothers because I have been following your stories so closely over the last few years. I have not been part of a cult, but I absolutely could have. Something touches me so deeply about your bravery and relentlessness.
I have loved and admired Mike since he first appeared on A&E. I have since followed the Vow. I admire you as well Mark. You both seem to be incredibly, authentic, people. Thank you for this interview. I too finished Mike's book in just a few days.
I've always been fascinated with shows on cults as I feel it can happen to anyone .I've followed everything on Scientology and have so much respect for Mike and Leah. Now I also have alot of respect for you Mark and everyone speaking out on your years in Nxivm. This truly is saving people who can find their selfs in similar situations. I wish all of you complete happiness in your futures.
I've been a professional "SP" ever since Liddle' tommy jumped on Oprah's couch. It's a badge that I wear with honor. Thank you SO much for this interview …
Cant thank you both enough for the self reflection and insights you share in this interview. Its hard not to get emotional when Mike starts talking about his mother, so kind in his delivery and words it more or less brought me to tears. Both of your perspectives are very much needed in the discussions of cult or "high intensity religions"! I just wanted to say thank you for a very good listen 💛✌
Please keep getting these experiences out. The light needs to continue to shine on these organizations until they change or shut down. Allow the truth to keep coming out and keep this relevant! The Strength of the survivors needs to outshine the BS of these organizations.
I've listened to a few of Mike's interviews, and this one had my heart ache for him the most. And I'm glad it wasn't another "what is Tom Cruise like" interview.
Seeing you two together is like a “ cult awareness dream team”! Thanks so much. Now for something a little off topic, but whenever I see Elizabeth Moss act, I see her Scientology training coming through. The ability to subdue expression and yet the “ face acting” as everyone calls it all looks fake to me. She almost never owns up to being part of Scientology, but you can see it all there. Mark, I can’t wait to see how you build your channel.
Thank you so much for all the videos. I have been following Mike Rinder and Leah Remini's A & E Series, read her book and now am following the NXIUM expose story. I think its important to expose Scientology as well. I love Mike Rinder and Leah--- but I think HBO decided to give her a voice especially because she turned on Keith in the end. I felt sorry for Nancy in the end - she lost so many years with her parents and hurt her daughters.
The comment about "kick-ass"Sarah is the EXACT comment I made!! Especially Nancy's message!! I think she & Nippy are BOTH kickass. Hope they are doing okay & know exactly that....seemed to very good parents too. ❤️
Here via Mike. WOW! I had the nightmares of 'visiting' my 'friends' at the Org and having this dreadful feeling of being sucked back in there if I didn't remove myself from the environment immediately. Sometimes the dreams depicted them in squalor (beyond what we PHYSICALLY went through, but it was really telling of how their minds and lives were in fact playing out. They were really nice (as usual in reality - unless the proverbial shit hit the fan about 6 times a year), and I felt for them but couldn't express to them what they were involved in. MANY differing nightmares in different locations, but ALWAYS harrowing in a similar way. I was only involved for around 10 years, and on staff for around 8 as a senior Exec, (I knew your family rather well, I liked them, and have some stories you may be interested in... I considered your mum a good friend, she suffered the same heart condition my mother couldn't be saved from as a young 41 y/o - there's more personal feelings to that story, but I digress (MY GOD! you are talking about her RIGHT NOW! She wanted to die after you blew and refused to eat - hospitalized for some time as a result. Sea Org were swarming for weeks trying to handle her. She was dead already in her own estimation after 'losing you' as some sort of overnight 'Suppressive Person'. The place was HOT with blue suited Sea Org Flag Staff members, and closed-door executive meetings for hours on end, day in, day out with your family members corralled in there, and nobody knew what tf was going on except a few. I just happened to be a sounding board to one or two family members, and somewhat privy in my position at the time. She loved you so much Mike! They got to her. Of course they did! there were too many other family members at stake now - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM as you've stated, just as designed by destructive Cults. I was told about your father and how he died, by a family member. Tragic. And I saw how your mother's wanting to die after losing you was treated and seen by family too. I sit here stunned in a numb sense, as I can't get my head around it right now...I can't begin to imagine your experience having been raised in Scio for all of your recollective life Mike. But here you are, "Flourishing and Prospering'' for the first time in your life since leaving that supremely destructive Cult. Drop me a line if you'd like me to elaborate, I'm open to full discussion in private my friend. It's the least I can do for all you have done for me.
@roxy5154 I don't even remember watching this video, but I must have, since I see my "likes" everywhere from a previous viewing! I want to thank you for sharing this little bit with Mike (& us). I really, really hope you got to talk to Mike, personally. I wondered what they did to the rest of his family after he blew. I feared for them, as I read Mike's book. Cried the entire way through it. My God, have mercy, what hell he went through! What terrible hell...what almost everyone in Sci goes through! All ex-Scis, all still-ins, are still in my daily prayers; that they can heal from the years of mental high-jacking, mistreatment. The mental f*ckery that was a daily dose of unreality and disfunction. I pray for the day the whole structure goes down in flames!
I've watched bunch of Mikes interviews promoting his book the last few months. You can tell when he is speaking to a friend of someone he is familiar with. His body is more relaxed, he laughs more, and overall just seems to be having a conversation rather then an interview. I love watching him with Aaron on Growing Up in Scientology for this same reason. Mike is such a great speaker, but listening to Mike and Mark talk really feels like being part of a conversation.
Yay I’m so happy for another podcast episode! I just finished your vow debrief and was anticipating whatever you decided to put out next. Glad you and Mark have found a friendship out of the horrible circumstances you both faced. I believe you two have been a force for good for many people leaving abusive environments. You may never know how many people you positively affected but I can say for myself, both of your stories have been a life raft for a sea of self doubt. I never joined an abusive organization but your stories are more relatable than you may realize. Hope your families are doing well and you both remember to give yourself grace on the days you feel you don’t deserve any.
I have been waiting for this interview!!! SIMPLY AMAZING!!!! I admired you both so much for all you went through and still came back as grateful and wonderful human beings. Sal your experiences are so heartbreaking and at the same time so encouraging to me and I know for sure to many others and the fact that you guys share all of that with the world is so kind, so THANK YOU!!! Please keep it coming. I hope I can see you guys together soon 💕🙏🏻
Thank you so much!!! I love Mike Render and have his book. When you two we’re discussing what could be in the psyche of a person who doesn’t want to escape Scientology even though they are being mistreated and they know it, Mike said that it’s probably because they have every detail of their lives controlled and set for them so they don’t have to think. They have the false comfort of slavery instead of having to take full responsibility and perhaps get themselves out and then deal with their lives sans Scientology. This is the same with drug addicts. They know they are imprisoned by the drug in every detail of their lives. Part of the reason I believe that they can’t just quit is because of this comfortable prison that dictates their every move of everyday. They fear that they don’t have it in them to live their own lives where they would be responsible for each thing they do each day. It feels like way too much for them I believe.
What you are both describing is called being in a relationship with a narcissistic abuser. Every single person that has been in any kind of relationship with a narcissist (friendship, romantic, work, etc.), has been systematically conditioned to think anything and everything is their fault and the narcissist can do no wrong. You don't have to be in a cult to experience this kind of abuse, but most certainly everyone that has been in a cult has experienced it. It's all about power and control.
I'm coming to this later, but what a great conversation. It's very important to discuss these things because it is so very easy to get mind fucked. Looking forward to reading Mike's book. Thank you.
Thank you to both of you. Mark, can you possibly do a future episode about money and these organizations? Financial crimes were a part of the trial but not completely clear in the Vow. Obviously money was generated through the courses, but were the individual EM sessions monetized as in Scientology? Was there an income source like the books in Scientology? The stash of money in Nancy's house -- thoughts on that? Sorry, I know I'm asking a lot but just curious about your perspective on the role of money in general in these organizations. Thank you for providing such thoughtful and thought provoking content.
My friend who was in NEXIVM told me that Keith Reneire was IN Scientology at one point in this life. Are there any records of this to find out for sure?
Addendum: I often wonder, what happened to ppl like Hubbard, Miscavage and Raniere to develop into this special kind of evil? What kind of childhood did they have? Were they born as malignant narcissists/sociopaths/psychopaths?
I just got the book and am excited to get into it. I just finished Jenna Miscavages book. I read Captive by Catherine Oxenbergs - all fascinating accounts. I’ve read a lot about all these cults and was married to a JW. Blows my mind. I have such respect to you both as well as Leah Remini ( I’ll read her book eventually too) and all the others who broke out from such oppressive mind bending practices. Great fortune to you both and all the others. Thank you for your bravery.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
"I used to think I was saving the world with Scientology. Now I think I'm saving the world From Scientology." - Mike Rinder
I strongly believe these malignant organizations attract good-hearted people who then bring it to a stop. It's truly a beautiful process of the light winning over darkness like it always will.
I’ve been a “cult”/high demand organization student for years. Began with FLDS and have now read/watched every single book, shows, podcasts, UA-cam channels on all the things-Scientology, yoga, Nxvim, Jim Jones, Mormons, Lularoe, Way Down, Hillsong, JW, etc. etc. I have never been involved in any of these, I’m just fascinated by the workings of the human mind and the eternal search for community, for certainty, for answers, for improvement. I have such respect for these two gentlemen and all the brave voices who have spoken up with vigilance and compassion and unrelenting drive to bring the light and the truth. Thank you both.
Me too haha.
Would say Hillsong can be categorised as a cult or high demand organisation?That seems like a stretch to me
That’s me! It all fascinating.
ive been a grocery shopper for many years - I love the varieties of fresh fruits in the grocery store
@@bodythetan it definitely can be. 100%
Rarely have I clicked on a video so quickly. I am very glad to see NXIVM whistleblowers talking to Scientology whistleblowers. Obviously the groups are not exactly the same, but I think they have a lot more in common than they have differences. I think it's good that you guys are supporting and learning from each other.
I totally agree!! There are SO many similarities that would attract a similar type of person. As an improvement-oriented, non-religious person myself, these are the only two cults I could hypothetically see myself getting sucked into if I was the right age at the right time / before there was negative publicity. Absolutely fascinating conversation
Oh, believe me, nxium founder completely copied the Scientology founder, just double check the vocabulary that is a copy / paste
I’ve been following the story of Mike Rinder for a while now. He’s a very brave man & I admire his courage.
I kind of love that he’s your first podcast guest. I believe that by keeping the conversation going you will continually bring the truth to light. Bravo!!
Two of my favorite whistleblowers/people on the interwebs 🥰
You two are very powerful together. Great podcast. Well done to you both for "keeping on keeping on", despite all you've been through.
Thank You!
Coming from a narcissist family who used religion as a tool for control, so much of this hits home and is comforting to hear people talking openly about it. Thank you, both.
One of the BEST and most objective interviewers alive! Far superior to the grossly overstated, overpaid hacks in the major media!
Rinder's book is excellent.
I absolutely love listening to Mike Rinder. Thank you for having him on Mark.
My children and I live a mile from one of NXIVM homes. I kept an eye on my kids and everyone else's because I grew up with all kinds of abuse and felt like something was lurking. I cannot believe how close this evil was. I dont relish having been right but was so ostracized for being hyper aware. The kids in my neighborhood ('trash' as Maxwell would call them) would have fought against bars but then walk right into the manipulation involved in these things. I appreciate hearing grown men speak about the mental abuse being so real. Thank you.
Love Mike!! Thankyou 🫶🏼🫶🏼🫶🏼💯💯💯all I want for Christmas is a bobblehead🎶💯✌️👍🏽🙋♀️
The fact you made Mark Rinder your first guest on you’re Podcast… made me a subscriber Mark !
Mark- I just want to say thank you to both you and Mike, as well as all of the other brave souls who are JUST that- brave souls- to literally be in Hell on earth and somehow find the strength to pull your souls out of the depths of hell. It is just like the character in Stranger Things who fights for her soul and ultimately prevails over evil. I know you both still have a very long road of healing ahead of you, but many of us out here are praying for you all daily. Keep going! This IS now your purpose and your lifes work. Maybe, just maybe it all happens to certain people of soul strength TO be able to serve as healers. GOD bless.
I ve been following Mike Rinder for years-and have read his amazing book. This is by far, the most authentic, informative and wise interview with him I’ve seen yet. You guys are an amazing team.
Also. Nicki and her sad cohort is the NXIVM answer to the Scientology “Inch Wives” (see CNN interview with Mike and other former exes).
Yes!!! And beyond! Thankyou for your dedication and heart felt concern for others who may need help and support!! Beautiful beautiful
Been following him since John Sweeney. So glad he decided to talk to him. It made all this happen.
This was incredible! Thank you both! As a writer I especially loved Mike talking about his "editing/therapy" process and the anxieties he had to work through as he was writing, the "holes he didn't want to go down" I think Mark put it. Such a valuable conversation!! 💛🙏✌
Love Mike Rinder! He is a true inspiration! His perseverance , fortitude and tenacity through all he has been through is nothing short of incredible/incredulous! The candor in which he narrates his life story is truly humbling and admirable! I purchased the audible version and it is the best book I’ve ever „read“
Well said!
The book writing is the same with me. OMG. I keep stopping because of the trapped nightmares. It took forever to get out of the emotionless I did this, he did that sort of thing.
I wasn't in a cult. But I did have narcissistic abuse. I couldn't even write about me. I had to write about my domestic violence and child abuse patients. Those are amazing insights.
Two heroes👏
Excellent book and well written! It is an incredible story of perseverance, yet heartbreaking. I also had that reaction of ‘get out! Get out! Get out!’. Thankfully he did! I hope his children get out one day too.
Edit: the fact that Keith Rainieri still has followers is crazy, but not surprising. Charles Manson did too after he went to jail and did up until he died.
Glad to subscribe to your channel Mark. I too watched The Vow. And I was in the Sea Org for 25 years and Scientology for 38.
I agree with Mark that the 2nd season of The Vow went rather easy on Nancy Salzman. She was an enforcer for Raniere (which she touches on), but she also made buckets of money from ESP/NXIVM. When her house was raided they found an astonishing load of cash. She knew she was breaking laws.
Half a million
Not to mention the emotional abuse she visited on people. Some will excuse that, saying it was all at Raniere's behest. But even so, I think she enjoyed the power rush of her "Prefect" status. And I think, just a personal hunch, that if she had not joined a cult proper, she would still have been an emotionally abusive person to be around. Some people who've had moral injuries identify with her. But I wonder if they're being entirely fair on themselves.
Because I don't think the injuries NS had, as shown on The Vow, were moral injuries. They were consequence injuries, which are real. Her emotions were real. But they were all for herself. To this day, I don't think other people factor into her thinking at all, unless someone forces it by asking her uncomfortable questions.
@@cygnelle1232 correlation between people that study NLP and controlling people I think is high
The Vow and Mark’s podcast have helped me realise that not only was my mother probably a narcissist, but also that I gee up in a high control environment. Thanks!
Mark - I found you because I am a Mike Rinder fan and supporter. Judging by this interview, I think you definitely should do more interviews because you are gifted in that area. Building background, asking pointed questions, and allowing your guest to answer the question fully and completely. This has been my favorite interview with Mike. You earned a subscription with this podcast. You are a natural.
Mark said he could go on talking to Mike forever. I could listen to Mike or Mark talk forever. Both of you talking is just a wonderful bonus. Thank you both so much for all that you do. It does matter! Keep up the great work!
Mark, i remember in The Vow your mother being a little bit harsh on the phone with you, along the lines of "good, now you can stop giving all your time to that bullshit". If you do another Q&A i'd like to know, how did your family respond to the whole thing? It sounds like your mother was aware that what you were in wasn't healthy. And what was it like for them having the whole thing exposed in the media?
Keep going Mark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These comparisons are VITAL! (Mike Rinder's book is a great read for all those unsure of how this "scam" works)
“What did you do to pull it in?”
I had a friend who was in no way associated with Scientology and he insisted that in personal conflicts of any kind, each party was equally culpable. 50/50 he said. It got to be too much.
I too have never belonged to a cult but have watched a few of these types of channels where members of Scientology have broken free with interest and empathy. Mike Rinder is a great explainer and the conversation between you two is very insightful. Given the right circumstances, I can understand how people get pulled into a cults and congratulations on finding your purpose.
Insightful! What a pleasure from decades of pain!
Having been a fervent member than defect; I would come to a realization, “ I just dedicated my life, 30-40 years to a scam! Where is the tallest building to jump off?”
Ya couldn't have had a better first guest my friend 💪. Fantastic discussion fellas. Got my Sub ✌️ Appreciate ya OLD G 😉
I find Scientology fascinating because of LRH and his wild adventures combined with his formation of Scientology and the Sea Org. The legal battles and government battles. The elaborate properties. The flag orders…It’s just so deep snd complex and I never run out of new stuff to discover. It’s crazy! I HIGHLY recommend Rinder’s book
Mark, I found a very interesting thread among college students regarding A Capella Inovations. Keith himself commented in his usual word salad vernacular. Those college kids kinda handed Keith and everyone else commenting their asses. I would love to know what Keith said at the time. Any tender morsels you can give up will be quickly consumed as I am down the rabbit hole.
Mark id love to hear a conversation between you and Jon Atack!
Mr.Vicente! It is soooo nice to see you back. Hopefully the break you took helped you clear your mind a bit from all of this constant recognition. You guys are freaking amazing and I am so glad that you are back and with such an enthusiasm about moving on. Great episode & great interview! Good to see you guys working together!
You and Mike could and should do a multi-part series on your experiences. Outstanding insight and conversation!
Yaaasssss! Mike is Wonderful! This is amazing conversation with a power duo!
Mike and Mark, thank you so much for bringing the toxic snare of cults to public awareness. You give people still trapped the courage to go. I escaped a cult (Jehovah's Witnesses) where I invested 23 years of my life - I was a true believer, but now I've been out about an equal amount of time. I agree with Mike about psych help, I never found the right fit - it seems almost impossible for someone to "get" it unless they've either been in it or spent time close to it. On the other hand, there are prob many excellent therapists out there - I just couldn't find them. There were scant resources for cult victims back in 1996, but I stumbled "Cults In Our Midst" at the bookstore and that started breaking up my cognitive dissonance. Though I've recovered, the one thing that stills creeps back in sometimes are the regrets, for the wasted years and all the ways that has impacted my life and my children. Staying busy with personal growth and volunteering for good causes helps a lot (i don't JOIN anything, tho ;) ). Love you guys.
I watched this when it first came out and I just watched it again. Such a great conversation! And such a pleasure hearing Mike talking at length. I miss his voice out there.
Here's to him feeling better soon and to all of us hearing from him again soon! #TeamMike
Yay! My old favorite (Mike Rinder!) and one of my new favorites! (Mark)
(Not that Mike is ‘old’ chronologically, just that he’s been a crusader for a long time). 😊
Mike I LISTENED to your book as well as Leah's because I wanted to hear in your own words. It put me almost in those places with you. I've never been in a cult but I've been in bad places in my life. Your words helped me understand and come to terms with that trauma. Thank you for your hard work and sacrifice. ❤️🙏
I just finished listening Mike's book today and I started listening yesterday. It was really hard to pause for to sleep because it is so interesting and touching, especially the letter is touching me because I am a mom. I first bought ebook but when I heard in one of the YT videos that he narrates it himself in the audiobook, I had to get that as well. I absolutely recommend it to anyone who is interested in knowing about what was and is still going on inside of Scientology. I have been against Scientology based on everything I myself think about cults and cult like religions for almostt three decades but never knew the true depth of things. I have my fairly light experience of two different Christian churches with cult like treatment,which of one really ruined my grandpa's marriage. My step grandma gave all their money to the church and when my grandpa died and my dad and aunt gave step grandma money for a gravestone,it didn't happen. They waited for two years and eventually she stopped answering the calls and was never opening the door. So they had to buy it themselves. Later she paid it back but the trust was gone, and I had nothing to do with her after my grandpa's funeral. I was very disappointed and disgusted with her for that, because I had had a good relationship with her as a child, then she changed and all she talked about was the church but I had never thought she would do that. There also some other things that happened that I found out later,like she had attacked grandpa with knife and stuff like that.
The other experience is mine. I was hanging with other teens in a cafe made specifically for this church. At first they were so nice and welcoming and I thought I found new friends. I went even to this summer event with them with thousands of people there talking about how good and welcoming they were and what good they do. Eventually however I ended up extremely lonely and abandoned after I was sort of made to, or asked to not to come back, because I refused to dive in their altar pool to be baptized or become a member of the church and I didn't otherwise fit into their A4 form, though "everyone is welcome" and "one doesn't have to join to come in our church" I also saw some things that I maybe shouldn't have. They were very manipulative. I was going there about 1 and half year until those "friends"just turned their back on me. Later on when I saw some of them, almost all of them had left the church. These my experiences are not very bad but they made me look into cult like religions more deeply and have also protected me from them. Sadly I still did fell into one more cult like thing, MLM. They have a very similar concept though they are not a religion. It is because I wasn't aware enough, the knowledge of it was not as widely spread on internet back then yet. Plus unfortunately I had seen a successful MLM story from aside, my earlier best friend's dad was a country rep for one very known MLM because he went in the right time,and became a millionaire. I got to enjoy some of the benefits of that, like skiing trips etc. He was also constantly trying to get me to join but I refused. Later on I joined another one by sort of accidentally joining their website while buying a product and thought that I can just as well try. I really shouldn't have because as anyone can guess,it left me in debt and feeling bad about myself. Well anyway these my experiences are not even close to the horrors these survivors of Scientology or NXIVM or some other violent cults have gone trough. To me one of the common nominators to all cults and alike is that they try to stop one from leaving or cut all the contact/ shun and make one feel very ashamed of leaving or not living to the expectations. The guilt play and manipulation are very strongly present, one starts to doubt oneself and believe everything what the leader or those in higher status says because they have to know better and I'm just not good enough,don't work enough, everything is my own fault and I just gotta try more and better. There's always that love bombing phase where everything is so wonderful and you are a special chosen one finding out a special secret.. how long it lasts varies. And then there's the isolation and mentally breaking a person down and then molding them to be a submissive follower who has no opinions , thoughts or needs. I hate cults and the way they break people, families and friendships. They are like a leech that gets stuck on you and slowly sucks you dry until your self or identity fades away.
I loved the focus on Nancy mostly because I’ve been so curious about her journey. Personally I would love a deep dive of many peoples journey - I’d watch infinite seasons. I’d love to see more about Barbra bushe and the other woman who dated Keith right when all of this started. Would also love seasons that dig into some of the suspicious deaths surrounding NXIVM also. Everyone’s story in this is fascinating and has a lot to teach us about manipulation and identity and cult psych. Thank you so much you guys. You’re hero’s to me and love hearing both of you discuss these topics. 💖💖💖
Both of you are absolutely making a difference exposing the insidious practices of these groups! The NXIVM case and prosecution of Keith is groundbreaking as far as the law. I hope that it set a president in the US justice system to hold these groups accountable. Thank you for all of your hard work guys and I hope you have best possible scenario with your work going forward. 💖💖💖
Next stop for justice… David miscavige ! 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I agree. I could watch a whole documentary just on Nancy.
I’m with you. The inside view of her journey was amazing
Me too!
I love that mike is the first guest on wtf is on my mind, because you guys can relate to each other so well given your positions in each of the organizations you were in. Your episode on the fair game podcast is still one of my favorites. And i love that if anyone has seen john sweeney’s first doc on Scientology, mike looked scary and overworked and terrible and seeing him since then even in the second doc john Sweeney made, he looks so much better and genuinely sounds happy. Previously it sounded like he was forcing the happiness which he was but even though he still fighting the good fight, he is in a place of almost zen. I cannot wait to read his book especially since i just finished Sarah’s book.
Excellent discussion from two men who have been through more than I could ever imagine and come out resilient, brave and courageous. Thank you!
The common thread through the therapy I've had was "write it down." #journaling Once you get the "thoughts" out of your head and onto paper/computer, the trauma can release, at least somewhat. Hopefully, Mike did this without realizing by writing his book! The memories can be recalled in the writing if you need them, but they are not living in your brain anymore. Not saying this would work for everyone, but it is a beginning. Thank you both for this great interview! #FreeYourMind
I remember watching the movie Escape from Sobibor and at the end when people are escaping the concentration camp kone character was screaming at some people to run and they just stood in confusion and couldn’t run. That is what I think about when hear you say some people don’t want to be saved. Maybe they are too damaged to go.
Fantastic podcast. I'm such a "fan" of Mike ( is that weird, i don't know, maybe i should call it admiration?) and of course i've watched the Vow as well. I've had my personal ( very negative) experience with Scientology, and like said, it's remarkably similar. Thanks for this great conversation, i enjoyed it a lot.
I feel so close to both of you guys and the other vocal survivors of NXIVM and Scientology. You have become like my brothers because I have been following your stories so closely over the last few years. I have not been part of a cult, but I absolutely could have. Something touches me so deeply about your bravery and relentlessness.
I have loved and admired Mike since he first appeared on A&E. I have since followed the Vow. I admire you as well Mark. You both seem to be incredibly, authentic, people. Thank you for this interview. I too finished Mike's book in just a few days.
I've always been fascinated with shows on cults as I feel it can happen to anyone .I've followed everything on Scientology and have so much respect for Mike and Leah. Now I also have alot of respect for you Mark and everyone speaking out on your years in Nxivm. This truly is saving people who can find their selfs in similar situations. I wish all of you complete happiness in your futures.
Loved Mike Rinders book.
I've been a professional "SP" ever since Liddle' tommy jumped on Oprah's couch. It's a badge that I wear with honor. Thank you SO much for this interview …
Thanks for having Mike Rinder on. I tried to ignore how cute he and his accent are and listen to his important story, but I admit it was hard.
Cant thank you both enough for the self reflection and insights you share in this interview. Its hard not to get emotional when Mike starts talking about his mother, so kind in his delivery and words it more or less brought me to tears. Both of your perspectives are very much needed in the discussions of cult or "high intensity religions"! I just wanted to say thank you for a very good listen 💛✌
So excited to hear the two of you have this conversation!
Two of my heroes!! Loved this episode. I cannot wait for Mark to interview Susan Dones!
Please keep getting these experiences out. The light needs to continue to shine on these organizations until they change or shut down. Allow the truth to keep coming out and keep this relevant! The Strength of the survivors needs to outshine the BS of these organizations.
Well done, Mark. Look forward to more of your podcasts.
Just found your channel! Binging is in my near future. Really enjoyed the Vow. Well as much one can enjoy learning about yet another destructive cult.
Right?! Thanks for joining.
I've listened to a few of Mike's interviews, and this one had my heart ache for him the most. And I'm glad it wasn't another "what is Tom Cruise like" interview.
This is an awesome & insightful interview! Thank you, Mike & Mark.
Best. Interview. Ever.
Seeing you two together is like a “ cult awareness dream team”! Thanks so much. Now for something a little off topic, but whenever I see Elizabeth Moss act, I see her Scientology training coming through. The ability to subdue expression and yet the “ face acting” as everyone calls it all looks fake to me. She almost never owns up to being part of Scientology, but you can see it all there. Mark, I can’t wait to see how you build your channel.
Yesss I thought the same the second I clicked on this video!! Absolutely amazing
You are both amazing people.
I have heard about the book on several channels but I just bought the book. The personal heartfelt comments made me realize I really need to read it.
Great book! Mark, you probably need to write one as well. I could imagine your work having a stronger emotional core than even Mike’s.
Great interview! Unheard previous info from Mike!!
Great interview
Thank you so much for all the videos. I have been following Mike Rinder and Leah Remini's A & E Series, read her book and now am following the NXIUM expose story. I think its important to expose Scientology as well. I love Mike Rinder and Leah--- but I think HBO decided to give her a voice especially because she turned on Keith in the end. I felt sorry for Nancy in the end - she lost so many years with her parents and hurt her daughters.
The comment about "kick-ass"Sarah is the EXACT comment I made!! Especially Nancy's message!! I think she & Nippy are BOTH kickass. Hope they are doing okay & know exactly that....seemed to very good parents too. ❤️
Here via Mike. WOW! I had the nightmares of 'visiting' my 'friends' at the Org and having this dreadful feeling of being sucked back in there if I didn't remove myself from the environment immediately. Sometimes the dreams depicted them in squalor (beyond what we PHYSICALLY went through, but it was really telling of how their minds and lives were in fact playing out. They were really nice (as usual in reality - unless the proverbial shit hit the fan about 6 times a year), and I felt for them but couldn't express to them what they were involved in. MANY differing nightmares in different locations, but ALWAYS harrowing in a similar way. I was only involved for around 10 years, and on staff for around 8 as a senior Exec, (I knew your family rather well, I liked them, and have some stories you may be interested in... I considered your mum a good friend, she suffered the same heart condition my mother couldn't be saved from as a young 41 y/o - there's more personal feelings to that story, but I digress (MY GOD! you are talking about her RIGHT NOW! She wanted to die after you blew and refused to eat - hospitalized for some time as a result. Sea Org were swarming for weeks trying to handle her. She was dead already in her own estimation after 'losing you' as some sort of overnight 'Suppressive Person'. The place was HOT with blue suited Sea Org Flag Staff members, and closed-door executive meetings for hours on end, day in, day out with your family members corralled in there, and nobody knew what tf was going on except a few. I just happened to be a sounding board to one or two family members, and somewhat privy in my position at the time. She loved you so much Mike! They got to her. Of course they did! there were too many other family members at stake now - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM as you've stated, just as designed by destructive Cults. I was told about your father and how he died, by a family member. Tragic. And I saw how your mother's wanting to die after losing you was treated and seen by family too. I sit here stunned in a numb sense, as I can't get my head around it right now...I can't begin to imagine your experience having been raised in Scio for all of your recollective life Mike. But here you are, "Flourishing and Prospering'' for the first time in your life since leaving that supremely destructive Cult. Drop me a line if you'd like me to elaborate, I'm open to full discussion in private my friend. It's the least I can do for all you have done for me.
@roxy5154
I don't even remember watching this video, but I must have, since I see my "likes" everywhere from a previous viewing!
I want to thank you for sharing this little bit with Mike (& us). I really, really hope you got to talk to Mike, personally.
I wondered what they did to the rest of his family after he blew. I feared for them, as I read Mike's book. Cried the entire way through it. My God, have mercy, what hell he went through! What terrible hell...what almost everyone in Sci goes through!
All ex-Scis, all still-ins, are still in my daily prayers; that they can heal from the years of mental high-jacking, mistreatment. The mental f*ckery that was a daily dose of unreality and disfunction. I pray for the day the whole structure goes down in flames!
This was brilliant! Thank you both.
Been waiting for this conversation. So happy it is finally here.
Excellent interview
I’ve read Mike’s book twice and am looking forward to this podcast. You both are so interesting!
I've watched bunch of Mikes interviews promoting his book the last few months. You can tell when he is speaking to a friend of someone he is familiar with. His body is more relaxed, he laughs more, and overall just seems to be having a conversation rather then an interview. I love watching him with Aaron on Growing Up in Scientology for this same reason. Mike is such a great speaker, but listening to Mike and Mark talk really feels like being part of a conversation.
Great talk.
Yes, amazing!
Yay I’m so happy for another podcast episode! I just finished your vow debrief and was anticipating whatever you decided to put out next. Glad you and Mark have found a friendship out of the horrible circumstances you both faced. I believe you two have been a force for good for many people leaving abusive environments. You may never know how many people you positively affected but I can say for myself, both of your stories have been a life raft for a sea of self doubt. I never joined an abusive organization but your stories are more relatable than you may realize. Hope your families are doing well and you both remember to give yourself grace on the days you feel you don’t deserve any.
Mark, you were right, Mikes book is astonishing. Wow.
First and best❤ guest!
Great podcast.
Lol
You are looking a little bit culty in your matching outfits. Love seeing you together!
I have been waiting for this interview!!! SIMPLY AMAZING!!!! I admired you both so much for all you went through and still came back as grateful and wonderful human beings. Sal your experiences are so heartbreaking and at the same time so encouraging to me and I know for sure to many others and the fact that you guys share all of that with the world is so kind, so THANK YOU!!! Please keep it coming.
I hope I can see you guys together soon 💕🙏🏻
First, I absolutely love you❤
Thank you mark that was a really really informative and I’ll write down the specifics tomorrow morning
Thank you so much!!! I love Mike Render and have his book. When you two we’re discussing what could be in the psyche of a person who doesn’t want to escape Scientology even though they are being mistreated and they know it, Mike said that it’s probably because they have every detail of their lives controlled and set for them so they don’t have to think. They have the false comfort of slavery instead of having to take full responsibility and perhaps get themselves out and then deal with their lives sans Scientology. This is the same with drug addicts. They know they are imprisoned by the drug in every detail of their lives. Part of the reason I believe that they can’t just quit is because of this comfortable prison that dictates their every move of everyday. They fear that they don’t have it in them to live their own lives where they would be responsible for each thing they do each day. It feels like way too much for them I believe.
What you are both describing is called being in a relationship with a narcissistic abuser. Every single person that has been in any kind of relationship with a narcissist (friendship, romantic, work, etc.), has been systematically conditioned to think anything and everything is their fault and the narcissist can do no wrong. You don't have to be in a cult to experience this kind of abuse, but most certainly everyone that has been in a cult has experienced it. It's all about power and control.
@Luiza
Nailed it in one blow, Luiza. Being under the influence of a Narcissist in ANY circumstance is a recipe for disastrous consequences.
I'm coming to this later, but what a great conversation. It's very important to discuss these things because it is so very easy to get mind fucked. Looking forward to reading Mike's book. Thank you.
I just love Mike that how I found you.
Great video
Thank you to both of you. Mark, can you possibly do a future episode about money and these organizations? Financial crimes were a part of the trial but not completely clear in the Vow. Obviously money was generated through the courses, but were the individual EM sessions monetized as in Scientology? Was there an income source like the books in Scientology? The stash of money in Nancy's house -- thoughts on that? Sorry, I know I'm asking a lot but just curious about your perspective on the role of money in general in these organizations. Thank you for providing such thoughtful and thought provoking content.
So glad they both got out
Thanks x Just like AA which I left after 34 years. So many similar things. We are on a cult exposing tsunami! At last, Hurrah!
Just finished your book …it’s great read.
My friend who was in NEXIVM told me that Keith Reneire was IN Scientology at one point in this life. Are there any records of this to find out for sure?
Addendum: I often wonder, what happened to ppl like Hubbard, Miscavage and Raniere to develop into this special kind of evil? What kind of childhood did they have? Were they born as malignant narcissists/sociopaths/psychopaths?
I’ve never heard about this man before so I’m really interested to hear about it
I just got the book and am excited to get into it. I just finished Jenna Miscavages book. I read Captive by Catherine Oxenbergs - all fascinating accounts. I’ve read a lot about all these cults and was married to a JW. Blows my mind. I have such respect to you both as well as Leah Remini ( I’ll read her book eventually too) and all the others who broke out from such oppressive mind bending practices. Great fortune to you both and all the others. Thank you for your bravery.