Is Horror Too Problematic to Enjoy?
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2020
- Transgender representation in horror -- Dead Meat Podcast:
• Transgender Representa...
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/ @intellectualdarkwave - Фільми й анімація
So wait, the movie is trying to say that forcing someone to be the opposite gender identity is psychologically harmful to them and is morally unjustifiable?
I think the writers inadvertently self-owned.
Watching it...I got the sense it was intended to be a story of the evils of humanity. Little boy loses his family, his evil aunt forces him to live not just as a girl, but as his own dead twin sister...but by the time it got to print, the scenes that established it were so batshit that you almost have to ignore it to stay in the moment.
When I watched it that was my interpretation as well. I actually thought it had good messaging. Obviously intense ongoing psychological trauma usually leads a person to be a victim and not a killer, but that's pretty par for the course in horror.
Like this kid has been being forcibly misgendered and its caused him a lot of pain. I think the fact he is shown as being a cis guy might hell cis viewers relate more to his struggle. Also, Angela is portrayed as a likeable and sympathetic character throughout the movie all the way through until the reveal. Just my take. I know my bf at the time was shocked when I liked it lol. I think he was trying to get under my skin since I'm such an SJW lol!
How did they self own? I don't recall their stance on transgenderism being obvious other than what the movie states
If it were made by a Trans person today, maybe, but as presented, the movie plays into the transphobic narrative of abusive adults forcing/coercing children to transition. The kind of shit fear-mongering that leads to the NHS cutting support for Trans children. I could honestly buy this being made by a well-intentioned Egg or Trans, or Trans folks latching onto this movie as part of their journey, but the way the film itself plays out is not a great look. But more power to any Trans folks who had a positive experience with it!
I don't think it is a self-own since the message is that Angela was turned insane because of the mistreatment of her psychotic mother. Whether she stayed a boy but was forced to be a girl (like in the movie), or wanted to be a girl but was forced to stay a boy (for example, in a pro-trans scenario), either way it's the impact of neglect to gender identity enforced by the mother to the unwilling child that in the end created this murdering psychopath. I don't think the "she was a boy being a girl" was the issue all along, but the neglect of the parent. In that way, I think you could consider the message to be less anti-trans and more so anti-child abuse (which could be a pro-trans stance if they were to remake the film with a tweaked scenario). However, it still feels kind of wrong either way when talking about gender identity connected to being a murdering savage, especially when horror does have a track record of cross-dressing being seen as an "evil" characteristic (take Silence of the Lambs or even Psycho with Norman bates dressing up as his mother).
This is an interesting topic of criticism in any genre. For example, "Oliver Twist" advocates for social reform and women's rights while also being massively racist.
That seems to be Dickens in general, too. Especially when you hear his opinions on various uprisings by India & Jamaica against the British Empire in the mid 19th century.
Dickens was also incredibly sexist and classist himself, so it's kinda baffling that he wrote so much about those topics.
@@kittygrimm7301 Dickens got paid by the word to write commercial work for the masses. he may have largely just been writing stories he thought would sell
Can't get better at something if you didn't fail first. Nothing wrong with liking the good parts of something, and not liking the bad ones... that's the whole point of constructive criticism: so that the next generation of whatever you're making keeps the good bits and dumps the bad ones.
Yeah, reform blind spots are prevalent enough thing to justify its own trope page.
They didn't superimpose her face. They made a mask of the actress, it's actually the best effect in the movie and yet there's still something horribly wrong with it when you pause it to take it in.
Also the actor playing Angela in that scene was actually kinda drunk, apparently that was the only way to convice himself to play the part
That’s a big reason why the end always sticks with me (beyond the transphobia). Her face is so disturbing and uncanny valley and in that moment.
I thought the horribly wrong look was the point?
I’ve seen just about every horror movie possible in my 43 years but this is the only movie to actually “scare” me,it was this ending scene that did it…to this day I STILL feel the need to look away from the screen 😳 now knowing that this is the reason makes sense to me now….things mimicking humans freaks me out completely lol
May on her channel NyxFears also has a video on her perspective on Sleepaway Camp as a trans woman that I would highly recommend
Yes! Her video was great
She’s the best.
Thanks. Good tip :-)
All hail the Queen. One simply must Stan.
I love her so much im glad someone else was gonna reccomend that video
I like horror because a lot of it passes the Bechdel test. The women talk about survival instead of boys/men 😆
Is there a horror film where the women don't discuss survival at all and only discuss boys/men?
@@robbaldwin2402 Probably, but I'd imagine they'd die in the first 10 mins!
@@ElementalWhispers I feel like there's room for a really funny, subversive film here along the lines of Cabin in the Woods
That's very true. But it's also dissappointing how little horror is created by women and BIPOC
Surviving male violence is somewhat about boys/men.
I think this is exactly why sites like "does the dog die" are a great thing for personally vetting the content you wanna see! Plus, it's a great way to give back by contributing notes for it if you notice something in it that wasn't on the list. Ao3 tagging has me spoiled, people deserve to filter their own media consumption the same way though I think
I kind of want AO3 tags for All the Things, because it would make finding stuff I want to watch or read much easier. Mysterious blurbs on books do not tell me if the weird niche crap I am Here For is in it, which means I probably miss a lot of books I would love.
Also AO3 tags can contextualise the content so you can distinguish between portrayals of something that would trigger or upset you vs portrayals of it that you actively seek and enjoy. A somewhat finer tool than just boilerplate content warnings.
I googled it and still couldn't figure out what Ao3 tagging is, could you give a quick explanation of what that means?
@@tomroadrunner87 oh! Ao3 stands for Archive Of Our Own, it's a fanfiction website where authors are expected to assign tags to their own fics to indicate topics, tropes, characters, ships, warnings, etc. that are included in their work. This allows the system to group the fics that share the same tags, and the user can then request the inclusion or exclusion of any of those tags in their searches.
It's like the warnings at the beginnings of movies, but way more specific, and you can filter the works by those warnings
So, if I want to read a story that includes a specific character, I can search for that, with the option to also exclude another character who I'm not interested in reading about. Don't want to see any mention of violence today? Exclude that from the search, easy. Want to ONLY look at fics tagged with werewolves and also ghosts? Easy, include them! It allows a LOT of control over what the reader wants to see, and it's on the author to provide that information correctly so that people better know what they're going to get. And even within those searches, you can scroll past things that don't look interesting or fit what you're looking for. Summaries don't always cut it, but tags as a supplement to that can be way more specific without necessarily being a spoiler.
Hope this all makes sense! It's a big community effort to make this possible, but it works pretty well!
Unconsenting Media is the one I use to avoid or be aware of sexual assault & rape.
Eat comments and live, Matt
Sometimes I am turned off by horror movies that depict mental illness as dangerous to people around the victim. It's an ongoing inescapable trope, which is very stigmatising
I felt that way watching Hannibal, and I loved Hannibal. TV shows that need a horrific murder a week to drive the plot so that the murder cops can solve gives off the illusion that we live in an extremely violent, random world. And we really don't. But I was willing to accept the fact that a lot of the murders had something to do with the murderers psychological issues because they needed to be for plot reasons.
I'm so tired of this trope! I have watched two movies about it lately and I just lose all interest because it's something we see over and over again!
Or when someone has a scar, deformity or missing a limb, are some how inherently evil.
That's a really good example of horror putting a magnifying glass on bigotry, I think (I'm not a part of this particular group, I think, but I've seen a lot of this take from people in it). It's problematic, absolutely.
I feel it's like picking at a scab. The itching directs you to it, and then you pick.
You know it's not a good idea, intellectually.It's not healthy.
But you keep doing it.
Hopefully we can direct enough will to correct it, and how people like you, who know, give thoughtful critique towards it really help along that discourse. Not that anyone is required to see it. I know in my marginalized areas I have times where I just have to tell everyone else to Fuck Off. Trigger warnings and tags are necessary for vetting content. But for people in marginalized groups who can stomach bigoted content against themselves and explain to us ignorant folk what's really going on? I can't express how grateful I am.
@JohnnyTheWolf that's true. The worst thing is that they can be helpful too, but you have to look for a therapist who suits you but that cost money and time and the mayority have none of these things :c
One reason I really love horror is that there are so many fun female leads! I just wish that the people chasing them weren’t always charchitures of disabled people
Yeah! Most murderers have no mental health diagnosis. Just anger management issues and a lack of empathy.
@@darlalathan6143 well actually its more like stereotypical psychopathy were they cant feel anything and have no remorse for their actions
"Watching a movie is not activism" Damn dude, say it louder.
"It is both possible, and indeed necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media, while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects"
-Anita Sarkeesian
I was about to quote this! Thank you
Yes! Thank you!
Every piece of media is going to have something problematic or pernicious because it was made by people whose thoughts and biases are going to bleed into their work regardless of their intention.
Mmmm hail the Reverend Mother!
I was just about to go looking for this quote to post here.
I think if you’re quoting Anita Sarkeesian then you’ve already lost the debate.
"There's no ethical consumption under capitalism" applies to horror movies and media too
I would say there's no ethical consumption of media EVER, I think it's fundamentally impossible for media to be unproblematic because of the dialectics in it. Opinion and media are in constant motion, SOMETHING from some period of time must be problematic and every film must be problematic at some point.
@@thatyoutubechannel9953 I think without even considering time passing this is true. There are too many varying experiences out there, not to mention all the other variables like who was involved in creating or who profits from it etc.
@@QuestingRefuge Well I think it's possible for a film to be entirely inoffensive at some point in time, in theory at least. An entire society may completely disregard who was involved in a work of art's creation and the movie could theoretically be wholly in line with what every single person on the planet believed. This is practically impossible and incredibly hard to imagine in most societies today and in the past , but is in no way logically inconsistent.
@@thatyoutubechannel9953 Just wanted to say, that's a really good point. I agree with it in general, but do you think there are no stories whatsoever (as stories, nevermind the medium) so far that are exempt from being or becoming problematic?
@@dunningdunning4711 well in practice there could be some incredibly basic story which could never be meaningfully challenged as problematic, so essentially noncomplex and inoffensive that we're likely to go extinct before they're offensive; when you go by the assumption that mankind will never transcend problematic things and will never go extinct, though - two things we cannot precisely predict so are useless to assume in this context - we must assume it is, has been, or will be problematic.
To me this was well explained and logical--thanks Scaredy Matt.
To me, it's all based on a false premise.
Matt sets up a dichotomy between enjoying a work and some people finding it offensive. This is despite his honest representation of the other side of the argument at the start of the video: promoting material which spreads misconceptions and encourages feelings of disgust towards other, blameless human beings (such as the transphobia example) is harmful. Promoting, not enjoying. Concrete harm, not nebulous "offence."
I don't care whether someone does or does not enjoy a movie. I do care about the promotion misinformation and dehumanisation. They try to say that it is the "promoter's" responsibility to somehow acknowledge the problematic aspects of a work but this is never properly fleshed out or articulated and the entire video comes across as muddled.
As much as I like Matt's content, all authors are fallible and prone to blurring otherwise clear lines in defence of their personal choices and "freedom." This is unfortunate as Matt is so close to acknowledging that he could have challenged the chauvinistic elements of movies he has boosted in past videos. Instead they attempt to convince us that doing so isn't really important but their only real argument is the self defeating and confused one previously mentioned. It's not a big deal at the end of the day as I do believe Matt's heart is in the right place, it just sets off alarm bells when someone rushes out a defensive piece like this seemingly á propos of nothing. (Although perhaps he is under attack by clout chasing abusers of cancel culture, I certainly hope not as he doesn't deserve that. But we, collectively, deserve, and must take responsibility for, a nuanced discussion where anti chauvinist principles are not lost among frantic arguments about someone's personal moral standing as wholly good or wholly bad. That's a very protestant, puritanical way of going about things which is a unique blight on Anglo-American culture, or at least that's how it seems from here in the UK.)
@@jimcrelm9478 At least to my ears Matt made it pretty clear that the "promoter" must acknowledge the problematic aspects of a work. But maybe I'm mistaken.
Haunted Doll Watch shirt??
I see you, too, are a person of culture.
I want to point out that May Leitz / Nyx Fears also has a video all about Sleepaway Camp as a trans film, and Rani Baker wrote a *wonderful* series on trans villains in horror and her complicated feelings about the trope. I highly recommend both of those to anyone who's inclined to think about transphobia / transmisogyny in films.
Thank you for bring Bakers series to my attention. I am going to go find it.
Thanks so much.
What are some other examples of trans villains in horror? Just curious because I’ve just never heard of any lol.
@@toxicsugarart2103 Well, there's Dressed to Kill which is mixing both gender identity and bipolar disorder.
There's a few crossdressing horror movie killers as well. Norman Bates and the Bride from the Insidious movies being obvious examples. For a technicality, Pennywise also counts. Leatherface did go this phase for Texas Chainsaw 3.
I don't know where Glenn/Glenda fits in from Seed of Chucky.
Buffalo Bill often gets mistaken for this despite the movie saying he is not trans. The problem is that doesn't really do a "spot the difference" or have a trans individual who would serve as the real thing.
It's not really that there's so many. More so that, when these characters are in horror, they're usually the villains.
Christopher Bennett interesting, thanks for the info!
I'm trans and honestly, I love Silence of The Lambs so much that I'm planning on getting a Deaths-head hawkmoth tattoo and I plan on it being a sort of private joke with myself because of the transphobia and personal dysphoria.
As a longtime fan of the black metal genre, I can relate. I love a nice cold blast beat with very low quality vocal recordings. I think Burzum's Filosofem album is a masterpiece, but I'd also spend a lot of time on his UA-cam page explaining the crypto-fascism shit he was talking about to the few people there who genuinely may not have understood he was preaching fascism and why it was actually very uncool to be a nazi. I also made sure to pirate all the fashy black metal and spend money on antifascist bands like Yovel and Feminazgul.
Thumbs up for Feminazgul
I've been wanting to explore metal for a while. Thanks for some rec's, and I'd love to hear more, if ya got em. Feminazgul sounds worth a listen on name alone
@@verager2493 Feminazgul is Margret Killjoy's black metal project. It's making fun of a lot of the fashy metal bands that were super into LotR. It's maybe not the first metal band I'd recommend to someone, but Yovel is pretty dang good. I also enjoy Sepultura, especially their Chaos AD album, and Samael and how they transitioned from black metal to super positive industrialish music on their Reign of Light album.
Being a Black Metal fan, but not liking Burzum does have it's benefits. Still not sure why foreginers seem to think it was *the* project of the Norwegian Black Metal movement.
I just wanna add Wildspeaker and Dryad to the list of leftist Black Metal (although they're really Blackened Crust).
I didn’t known HP Lovecraft created Facebook, mad respect
Actually, that makes a lot of sense.
It makes entirely too much sense.
It’s just another incomprehensible, eldritch horror. We should have known tbh.
He created the *first* facebook - made from human flesh and an actual face!
Frank Castle that’s both more and less disturbing than a website for men to rate women on their campus
ScaredyCancelled.
Nah, doesn't roll off the tongue well.
CancelledCats.
But no, I love cats, I don't wanna cancel them :(
@@snowblood74 I don't know, I love cats as well, but I'd really want to cancel Cats.
...the proble-Mattic fave
2020, where we don't cancel someone because the call-out isn't snappy enough. Sounds good to me
That's an interesting example, because as s trans person I feel very represented by a character that's filled with rage because they're being forced to play the female gender role by outside forces. Putting a little girl's face on a man's body is weird and fucked up though, yeah.
But I get that everyone sees and interprets things differently.
I'm cis so I'm not coming at this from personal experience, but I had the same thought.
That’s actually my take on Angela. If anything it’s a cautionary tale against forcing people to live with a gender identity they don’t have
as another trans person who has been forced to play a "female role", I can understand feeling validated by seeing a persons rage at being forced to act like a gender they aren't. however, I think youre ignoring the fact that angela is specifically intended to be a transmisogynistic stereotype of a trans woman. her character plays on the common idea that trans women aren't really women, they're men who were forced into a "female" role by their parents (usually their mothers) for whatever reason. im not saying you cant enjoy the movie or anything, but maybe you should think about why you, especially as someone who is tme (transmisogyny exempt, ie. not a trans woman) find comfort/representation in a character that's reason for being created is to pathologize trans women
I had the same interpretation, escpecially as the movie spends almost its entire runtime getting you to sympathize and like Angela.
I like to interpret Sleepaway Camp as a cautionary tale of the dangers of a) transphobia, and b) forcing people (whether cis, trans, or questioning) into rigid roles that run counter to their true desires and core identity.
the thing* that sucks about sleep away camp is that the effects that were used to make the ending scene (i’m pretty sure they made a mask of the actresses face and the actor wore it) actually make the scene SO deeply unsettling and in that way really good. (to clarify, i don’t mean the face/body matchup, i mean the way that she stands there staring with her mouth completely open and making a hissing noise. how her face is completely unmoving because it’s a mask hits some deeply unsettling uncanny valley area)
*obviously aside from all the things you mentioned in the video
"You know, it's an unpopular opinion but the subtle use of metaphor in Mein Kampf is really quite sublime"
*runs the full length of the room, grabbing your shirt and hissing mere centimetres from your face*
"BETTER THAN THE YOU KNOW WHOS COULD DO!"
yo where’d you get merch i’ve been looking
Scaredy Matt is officially canceled for promoting anti-Babadook sentiment. 😂
Thanks again for another nuanced take Scaredy Matt :D
That said, if you're looking for horror media that largely avoids the Big Problematics of sexism, transphobia, homophobia and other forms of exploitation horror... I HIGHLY recommend The Magnus Archives.
I know you're a movieperson, but it is the most delightfully scary podcast I have ever listened to. Hell, I think you could get a really good video out of how it expertly avoids the Bury Your Gays trope.
This is good, but its worth mentioning that The Magnus Archives has some racist bits (specifically the Haans) and an absolutely horrific take on psychosis
Sure it's good with gay representation but it absolutely does dip into exploitation horror adjacency in how it absolutely revels in the suffering and death of psychotic people to the point where theres an entire fan favorite "monster" dedicated to making people psychotic (or appear psychotic) and then killing them
@@princelystatic4818 I will absolutely grant that. All media has problematic implications, and TMA is not a complete exceptions.
However, I would also like to point out that I think there is a distinct difference between "mentally ill people as an object of horror", and "mental illness as an object of horror". Much like how there's a difference between "sick/physically-disabled people as an object of horror" and "sickness/crippling bodily harm as an object of horror".
I don't think there would be anything wrong with a monster whose gimmick would be to remove a limb from their victims. That's fucking visceral and terrifying, not because you're somehow "lesser" as an amputee, but because most people like keeping their limbs. I think that a very similar case can be made for mental-illness based horror: You can fear your own mental breakdown (because most people like their own stable mental condition), without vilifying the mentally ill.
That said, yeah, TMA's handling of psychosis in particular is a bit of a Yikes. But there you go. There's my take.
"where do we draw the line" is a question that's been keeping me up at night for years when it comes to enjoying problematic things.
Alice Collins, a transwoman, recently wrote a great piece about Sleepaway Camp for Bloody Disgusting. I don't know if Matt has links automatically blocked in comments or not, so I won't link it here, but you'll find it if you search for it.
Love the haunted doll watch shirt every time it shows up
Another good video. I think having movies with problematic aspects, but some redeeming qualities, can be interesting from the standpoint that it lets you examine those subjects in a fairly safe way. I mean, Horror is all about experiencing fear in a safe environment.
on another note, saw you skateboarding on Curio's channel and that was kinda awesome.
I've always been a believer in the idea that you can enjoy problematic pieces of media. Provided you're aware, conscious, and not in denial that is in fact what you're doing. We all have our limits, though.
As a life long Lovecraft fan, who's only too aware of his vile views on race and culture, I am profoundly grateful for this video.
Why is this? I'm genuinely curious? I'm black and white people demand I read his work all the time. I always find it such a huge slap on the face. It's like this person thinks I'm subhuman and a whole population of people out there are OK with that. How should I feel about them?
raslalique I can’t speak for the other commenter but I guess I can share my own views? I’m white so be warned I might not have the best perspective on this. He’s my favourite author because of his wordy and old fashioned writing style, and a lot of his stories have genuinely interesting ideas and plot twists. I love reading his descriptions of creepy old towns and spooky fish monsters. And who else uses words like squamous and cyclopean?
That being said, lovecraft was disgustingly hateful, even for his time. It’s pretty shitty that anyone would demand that you read such a bigoted author. I constantly find myself picking fights online with other lovecraft fans who try to argue that he “wasn’t that bad” or “just a product of his time” so that they can go back to uncritically enjoying.
Lovecraft actually kinda helped open my eyes to exactly what Matt is saying in this video. You can enjoy things while also being critical of them. In lovecrafts case that means criticize the racism, hate the author, but enjoy the fish monsters (even when the fish monsters themselves can be considered a thinly veiled racist metaphor)
I’m fine with friends and family enjoying silence of the lambs because they think Hannibal lecter is cool, as long as they understand and are critical of the movies transphobia. I would still find it upsetting to have to watch it again, so I understand why lovecraft would be similarly off putting for just about any nonwhite person.
If lovecraft were alive today I’d sooner punch him in the face than shake his hand, but he left behind some fascinating (although very problematic) horror stories.
Lots of nerdy white guys are just really sketchy though and they don’t give a shit about nuance.
@@raslalique OMG, I would never demand anyone read his work. And I totally see why you would be disgusted by it. It really isn't just that Lovecraft has some trace elements of racism at the side, as a product of his time. The xenophobia and white supremacists chauvinism is baked fundamentally into the DNA of his stories. There is no defence for this. It is fucked up. But maybe that is why he works as a horror writer for me? I discovered Lovecraft at the end of the 80s, as a white teenager, from white, middle class background, and it took me a while to even become aware of the deep racism in his stories (as I was becoming aware of the deep racism of our societies) - but I think I felt the "call of evil" even before I understood it. Lovecraft's protagonists (even he wouldn't call them heroes) are awkward, antisocial, timid men, scared as much of women and sexuality in general as they are of black people, immigrants, and foreign cultures. The eldritch, tentacular, "squamous and rugose" monstrosities that not so much kill his protagonists but usually drive them insane because of their proximity and mere existence ARE the embodiment of those fears. To Lovecraft, of course, they were symbols of the PEOPLE and CULTURES he feared - but what he ended up describing was the horror INSIDE him, instead of any "out there". There is a reason why artists like Guillermo del Toro or Matt Ruff (or even Stephen King) are drawn to Lovecraft, and end up with works like "The Shape of Water" or "Lovecraft Country", that take strong anti-racist, pro-minority positions. Like Matt said his video, that is not to defend Lovecraft. He was a sad, bigoted, neurotic, hateful person. (He wasn't ONLY that - he apparently was also, e.g., a very good and loyal friend, very supportive of younger talents, etc. But this doesn't diminish his flaws either!) Still, to me, personally, his work is valuable and meaningful exactly because it draws out all the internalised racism, xenophobia, sexism, and the self-doubt and feelings of inferiority and failure that are the basis for these poisonous parts of myself. In Lovecraft's stories I am confronted with this darkness, and I find it both edifying and cathartic.
I am really tired of hearing about how Lovecraft is racist. I don't think hes really that great or important, so it's weird to me that people need to torture themselves into justifying being able to read him. You can't just say "That guy sucks", "He's racist", or " I just like him." It has to always rehash the same conversation of apologetics. Idk.
@@JebeckyGranjola Hey, nobody is forcing you take part in that conversation. Many cephalopods in the sea, many other authors to obsess over (or video games, or real life issues, etc.) Certainly nobody has to be interested in the (anyway very slim) body of work of one weird dude almost a hundred years ago.
But for some reason, he does remain topical - from those Vincent Price Lovecraft-Poe smash-ups of the 1960s or 80s vintage fun trash like Re-Animator (and modern weird trash like Color out of Space) to the omnipresence of the Necronomicon (in anything from the Evil Dead films, Friday the 13th, Pumpkinhead, to Archie comics and Crichton novels), Cthulhoid references in anything from Digimon to Rick & Morty, and "serious" influences in the above mentioned works of Guillermo del Toro (not just "Shape of Water" but also eg. Hellboy II, but basically in the background of his entire filmography) or now in Lovecraft Country (but also great books like Paul La Farage's "The Night Ocean" or Victor LaValle's "The Ballad of Black Tom"). As I said, there is enough stuff out there for you to steer clear of Lovecraft, but you cannot claim that he isn't relevant.
Clearly, something about his work fascinates people and keeps them returning to his ideas. And the one thing that is not okay (I hope we can agree) is to just enjoy him WITHOUT acknowledging his monumental racism. If we want to enjoy what there is to enjoy in his stories, that can only happen by working through the "problematic" issues.
So, by all means, YOU can go ahead and say "this guy sucks", he's racist" and "I don't like him", and you would be very well justified in it. But for the rest of us, who DO like his stories... we're stuck with having to deal with his racism. :/
I have an honest, good faith question about Sleep Away Camp: The description given about Angela in the video is that she was driven insane by her mother forcing her to become a girl even though she was assigned male at birth. Now I have not seen the movie, keep that in mind, but from that description... doesn't the movie kind of validate trans people in a way? Or at the very least says something about forced gender identity? It's not the fact that Angela is trans that makes her a killer or insane because technically Angela *isn't* trans. Angela is really a cis boy, and it was his mother forcing him into a gender role other than the one he identified with that f***ed him up so badly. Angela isn't the true villain of the film, his *mother* is. It almost seems to me that the movie is saying, "Hey, maybe forcing people to identify as a gender they're not comfortable with can seriously mess them up, so maybe don't do it?" I don't know if that was the intended message of the film--in fact I'm pretty sure it wasn't, given the time period it was made--but isn't it possible to come away from this movie with that impression? This isn't a *defense* of the film, mind you, because, again, I haven't seen it myself (though I've seen reviews of it); I'm just curious if it could be interpreted in this way, or is there some huge, glaring detail I'm missing?
"we criticise because we love" - it doesn't make grammatical sense, but it sums up my feelings of how when I really like media for some reason (usually aesthetics), I'm more likely to pay attention to and acknowledge its flaws.
I often use this as a comeback to the idea that you can only completely love an entire piece of media or completely hate it and that everyone should have the same opinion on all of it, which is obviously completely rediculous.
don't neglect freddie's racism, above all else: never forget...
still waiting on the zombie apokolypse
I really think just slapping "problematic, you shouldn't watch it unless to insult it" is like ... So base level. It encourages people to not pay attention to what media they consume, not learn how to identify racism/ableism/homophobia/transphobia and just like, listen to what other people say and stop watching things.
Like you can't gain media literacy without participating in the media. This doesn't mean you have to watch everything or read everything. Draw your own lines to protect yourself, but learn how to identify these sort of things and understand that examining a work and liking an element of it is not an automatic endorsement of all other elements
Good thing that’s not what he said in the video
@@xbird532 I wasn't saying he did say that? I was agreeing with him.
Twisty Sunshine I read the comment as your interpretation of the video
@@xbird532 oh, that makes sense. Sorry, I was just agreeing.
Have you watched Nyx Fears video on sleepaway camp? She gave another trans perspective on the movie and it was actually somewhat positive.
Anyway, thanks for another interesting video!
I gotta say, being a xenophile and reading Lovecraft's work is a trip. Half the time he describes "horrible" stuff that i would honestly love to see and interact with. Like, could you imagine a conversation with a timeless fishperson. Some dude had AC based immortality. The whole city of elder beings full of strange geometry would give half the scientific community an orgasm. I get he was scared of everything, but damn, it's hard to wrap my head around it sometimes.
I always took Sleepaway Camp as meaning that Angela was driven insane because her aunt made her live as a girl when she was actually a cisgender boy.
This is exactly what it's about!
The weird thing is that the sequels ignored the forced part and made her a transgender woman.
@@VaderTheWhite because she was already criminally insane by then so it isn't out of her realm of possibility
@@doctorfeinstone6524 that's not how it works at all, trust me
@@VaderTheWhite it isn't set in stone. Different people do Different things
What was that thing some totally unknown person said on the internet that one time? It was something like "It's both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects." I'm a little hazy on the details.
Funnily enough, that was Antia Sarkesiaan apparently, but those people need the narrative of "SJWS ARE TRYING TO DESTROY OUR NERD CULTURE" so they wont acknlowdge it
wooosh
Here's my take on it: horror one of the few genres, that no matter the medium, is designed to make you uncomfortable. Some people can enjoy it without trouble. Others, like myself, not so much.
6:27 That’s actually not superimposed, that poor man is wearing a Felissa Rose mask.
I agree with you. People forget criticism also includes thoughtful analysis. There is nothing wrong with liking something, but also being critical of it. In fact, it makes me like horror even more because then I can discuss it. As long as something problematic is recognized and discussed, there is nothing wrong with liking the work of art it is a part of.
I would love to see you do "formal" movie reviews of some movies you like, or don't like but find interesting, or hate. Even just the little bit of recap you did for sleepaway camp was really fun.
Yeah, I get this with Lovecraftian stuff in particular.
Tentacle space monsters & playing with the fear of the unknown = cool
Having unhinged fits about interracial relationships, & generally being racist = definitely not cool
I think it's an instance where decoupling the monsters from their orignal symbolism is much better for it. We always can change its context where need be. Keep the monsters, dump the racist subtext.
Or just go watch birdbox lol
Sleep away camp was a trip, when that ending hit, my jaw was on the floor.
Nyx Fears reciently made a really interesting video about being a transgender woman who still enjoys Sleep Away Camp... y'all should check it out of this is interesting.
knew i was gonna love this from the moment i saw the thumbnail
The Phantasm playlist popping up reminded me of the fact that just a few days ago I made a comment that since summer is coming to a close now is the perfect time to watch Phantasm. Since it's a summer movie. To my spouse. With no context initially.
Yeah, I also don't know why I am the way I am. 😹
This also applies to non-problematic media made by problematic people.
I'd argue it's practically impossible for problematic people to keep their probelmatic views out of their work, but for the theoretical case such exits: yes, fully agreed.
@@snowblood74 I think it's possible if they're making art that's fully abstract, such as, for example, musical compositions.
The Cosby Show
I'm glad you cited *I Spit On Your Grave* (the 1970s original), albeit too briefly, because I made myself watch it for an "American history through film/TV" college course and...
To this day, I still couldn't tell you whether I "liked" the movie or not, or if I think it is even a "good" or "bad" movie. For God's sake, the core of the film is a serious of four gruesome revenge murders that follow a *15-20 minute scene of a nonstop violent gang r@pe.* It is so horrifying and so disgusting to witness, I am only glad I watched it as a ~27-year-old so that I was already prepared for it, but even so, it was still incredibly brutal to watch. However, it is because of this incredibly brutal sexual violence that the victim's gruesome killings of the men who perpetrated it is as much catharsis for the audience as it is cringe-inducing (in the traditional sense). We *want* to see those bastards die because they clearly deserve it, so we can cheer for the heroine even as she performs horrifying murders.
A question/criticism that could easily be raised is, "Well, why did the r@pe scene need to be there? Why couldn't it just have been implied, or at worst, shortened to only a few minutes instead of half of a full act?" And I honestly couldn't tell you what would change. The revenge murders are justified in the movie's universe because of the great injustice the woman protagonist experienced, and most importantly, *we got to witness the horror as it happened to her.* If the gang r@pe scene were shortened down to only 2-3 minutes instead of ~15 minutes, would we still be able to cheer on the protagonist the same way? Or would her murder spree seem less satisfying and might even run the risk of making us not empathize with her?
And that's why I cannot say whether or not I think "I Spit On Your Grave" is a good or bad movie or if I even liked it. The film's entire premise rests upon you, the audience member, stomaching the most brutal, unjustifiable horror a woman could ever possibly experience...so that you can cheer on said woman as she takes brutal revenge on the perpetrators. If you can accept the premise, then I believe you will find the movie incredibly *effective,* though I cannot say whether you will find it "good" or "bad". If you cannot accept the premise, then the entire film just flat-out does not function at its very core, and I could not tell you whether you are right or wrong for feeling this way. It was directed by a man in the 1970s, maybe it would be different if it were directed by a woman, I don't know.
All I know is that the Barbara Streisand effect should be renamed the "Roger Ebert effect" because his scathing 0-star review of the film actually made its popularity explode--everyone just *had* to see the film *Roger Ebert* hated with such fiery passion.
Thank you for reading. Please stay safe, wear a mask, wash your hands, we love you. 🤍🖤
*EDIT:* If you want to know how actual real-life women feel about the film...read the comments of the 2010 remake trailer. So many women expressing their horror at the extended rape scene...but such gratifying and vicarious feelings of justice from the revenge murders. They got the message loud and clear, and they cheered the protagonist on every step of the way.
Spot on. Thank you for sharing complicated feelings and their leftovers
Roger Ebert seemed to have a massive hater borner for any counterculture/indepent movies. Most of his low scores are for those, while all his high ones are for hollywood movies, though maybe by the 70s he already was "too old" to get it.
Theres alot of articles going into his I Spit on Your Grave review since most of what he claims to have seen at his screening is highly misreprensative and made up.
He claimed people were "getting off" to THAT scene
Liked and commented. Feed the algorithm.
Feed the algorithm!
I was literally just talking about this exactly yesterday with the boyfriend and wishing there was a trans person's perspective available somewhere on Sleepaway Camp. Perfectttttt
nyxfears has also talked about sleepaway camp, her perspective was interesting
I was going to suggest Nyx Fears video as well
Have to just throw it in. Nyx Fears is Queen.
I kind of like the first 90% of the movie as a totally cheesy, really early slasher. There's a moment around 1987 where slashers coalesced into the formula we know today, and Scream COMPLETELY ruined the genre with its 'rules', but the original Halloween imitators were a totally different class of slasher, and I appreciate how different they are.
Unfortunately, Sleepaway Camp in its last few minutes states pretty unequivocally that I am a monster. Even worse, nobody even seems to remember the first 90% of the movie which is good clean fun where we boil a child molester and stab some chick with a curling iron. It's literally just remembered as "That movie with the evil trap," and I enjoy the film, but I despise its legacy.
@@StarDustOwl All trans dorm? Now THAT is how you get stabbed with a curling iron =P
Yep, that's kind of how I still read Lovecraft despite everything. His writing style is so weirdly attuned to my inner voice, the first time I read his writing it really took me aback.
Thanks for the content warnings. While personally I do not have any triggers, I have friends with very serious triggers that affect their mental well being. The fact you consistently provide the warnings ahead of time gives me confidence in recommending your channel to those that otherwise wouldn't be able to explore the horror genre. So yeah, thank you, please don't stop!
I really appreciate you taking a serious swing at the topic! Im so used to people either getting completely puritanical, or endlessly moaning about "the SJW's". Sure it's true that horror *is* very often driven by what sells - including fears founded in prejudice that it can then reinforce. But the genre is also broad enough that plenty of people can access it and create their own horror media. It's a known phenomenon that there are Lovecraftian horror fans who are racial minorities or LGBT, women who are fascinated by the true crime genre, and so on. Horror lets people work through their fears, explore weird things, and have creative conversations about what society Fears and Others.
hello scaredy matt it's me scaredy cats (sample of one)
What's your Standard Deviation? ;)
I personally enjoy I Spit On Your Grave as a revenge film. It does portray sexual assault rather realistically which will turn some people off, however even if people don't watch the film I think it is good for people to know that the main character gets revenge and lives on.
People should know it is a crappy film.
I love that you mentioned Dead Meat. Horror channels getting along great. I love it.
My trans woman take on Sleepaway Camp: I will never watch it, but I do not care if other people enjoy it as long as that doesn't translate to dehumanizing trans people IRL.#uncancelscaredymatt
The thing is, even if its just a movie for entertaiment (not informative like a Documentation) it can still affect how people see something like Transgender People irl
Can't have a take if you don't watch it
Me, neither! I watch horror movies to be scared, not offended!
Also a trans woman, sleepaway camp 2 and 3 are amazing and the Angela from those is a fucking icon
I have never watched Sleepaway camp. I know someone who has seen it, and I have to now question why they liked it.
That image at 6:30, seeing someone running around with the face of a kid like that, that would freak me out. Her face like that alone is nightmare fuel. Though now knowing it's a superimposed image makes me realize it wouldn't look exactly like that in real life so I.... I don't know.
I think if they wanted to capture real-life horror in a movie they would have the big reveal that it was the CEO of a company going around killing people, because they got tired of the indirect, impersonal experience of doing it from afar.
It’s a mask
The next time anyone levels criticism against tmnt I'll point out that it scared someone enough to make maniac cop as a direct response.
Really outstanding video and a great mindset to have with regards to the genre. Generally, horror is broken down into many subgenres so it's not that hard to traverse and avoid those themes and depictions that some may find offensive. If the film is worthy and can transcend it's problematic elements, well that's what horror fans are for, to point you towards great horror films and also those to avoid.
It was pointed out to me that one of my favourite horror films, John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness has a pretty bad portrayal of the homeless. And it does and I can acknowledge it but at the same time I still appreciate the movie's awesomeness.
Films produced under Capitalism will be inherently problematic, ITS TIME TO ONLY WATCH TARKOVSKY FOREVER!
I can live with that. Also, I miss your videos.
"An unspeakable and unknowable evil from deep in the bowels of space and what it wants to do?"
"LET'S PLAY RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS
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Sometimes ads really do have perfect timing.
I've never interpreted Angela in _Sleepaway Camp_ as a transgirl; I see Angela as a cisboy forced into a female gender role by an abusive guardian. I know the sequels portray the character as an actual transwoman, but as different actresses/writers were involved, I view them as separate entities.
That said, I can see how some questionable writing/direction leaves wiggle room for transphobic viewers to reinforce their pre-existing bigotry.
I'm also not a transperson, so take my opinion with several grains of salt.
You need to keep in mind that transphobes don't care what somebody's actual gender identity is. The character in Sleepaway Camp is what many transphobes think trans women are actually like, and just because you can maybe argue it's not what a real trans woman would be like doesn't mean that wasn't the intent of it
I just discovered that you have a second channel and im weeping with joy that there is twice as much thought slime as i presumed.
Scaredy Matt! Thank you for this thoughtful vid. You’ve expertly articulated something a lot of folks wrestle with. My roomies and I recently did a Lighthouse/Sleepaway Camp double feature. (The vid you did on the former was also excellent btw) After an hour or so of gleefully roasting high-camp kills and a ton of teen boy cameltoe, we were woefully unprepared for the horrifically transphobic ending. I had chosen the title and felt like I had blown it and also felt guilty for enjoying the film so much up to that point. But your analysis sheds light on the complications of the issue. I still think maybe Sleepaway’s ending prevents me from recommending it but I feel less like a shit-bag for mostly enjoying the movie.
I dont think theres a problem with enjoying films with certain problematic elements as long as you can recognize that they are problematic and you criticize the film for that and dont just try to defend the filn unconditionally
I don't even like horror, but the overall message of the video is spot on.
I like this video a lot! BUUUUT nearing the end you get to talking about how people should be aware of a medias content to decide whether or not they're prepared for/willing to consume it. But that's more tricky than it sounds for me. Take the show 13 Reasons Why for example - I know it's not horror and I know it's not everyone's favourite show blah blah blah - BUT, this is a show that explores "problematic" issues, the different expierence I had watching some of this shoe though was that it gives you blatant trigger warnings at the start of episodes telling you basically what you're about to see. Which yes, for those that may be triggered could be totally a good thing - but for me as someone who pretty rarely gets offended or "disturbed" by movies/shows it more came off as totally unwarranted spoilers. And took a lot of tension out of it for me. Its like "oh this episode contains gun use." Guess whoever is going to have a gun later in the episode will be confirmed to use it. I know that now." (Not a real example but you get the idea)
So where's the line here? I guess if you want to look up this stuff independently you can and if you worry about being triggered by problematic material that's an option. To be fair, 13 Reasons Why as bad an example as it may be is the only example I could think of of this happening to me personally so maybe I'm just overthinking this and it's fine. But I just thought it was worth questioning
Great video. To depict anything in media is inevitably reductive so all we can do is our best to be aware of it.
However, it seems harsh to push the whole virgin thing on Halloween . It's a reading that only applies if we look at slashers as a convention and not Halloween as an individual film since virginity is a defining aspect of an early 80s final girl and not Laurie as an individual character.
Great comment👍.
I feel like the phrasing you used seemed to suggest that all media is equally problematic and therefore you just need to be more tolerant to enjoy it. I think things get harmful when you frame things with a false equivalency that clearly aren't. I think this is especially true for media designed as propaganda to push a harmful messages or ideas void of the creator's own innocence or ignorance; and you listed some very good examples of that.
this is a reach. he isnt saying everything is equally problematic, just that almost everything is but to different extents.
I like making gory practical effects and I constantly question if it's gratuitous or not or if that's even a call I as a creator can make.
It’s your responsibility to decide whether it adds to your work, and it’s the audience’s responsibility to decide if it’s appropriate for them.
Had the same discussion about ego-shooter. The best point was, that we hadn't experienced the violence of shootings, therefore we are not sensitive for it and should understand that other might be. This was my point.
But we can't let utterly garbage violence like "no russian" stand undisputed. And that was the moment i realize that most ppl just consume or are to afraid to speak up, against their own lifestyle.
Thank you so much for the content warning!!!
found this channel by searching for garfield horror for absolutely 0 reason, and binged all of ur videos in a week. love the channel (:
I think sometimes horror is good BECAUSE it's problematic. Sometimes it's the opposite.
Thank you for addressing all of these very important topics. As a gushing bleeding heart who also ingests almost exclusively horror, I find this tension between being entertained and what's problematic a constant area for reflection. I'm always thinking about these things. Often, horror puts a huge glaring spotlight on the problematic, whether on purpose or inadvertently, and forces consideration and discussion. Scaredy Matt, you da man. Thank you.
Thanks, Matt. I think this video was really important content to produce. We do have a bunch of new horror films in the canon, and remakes of the old ones that are dealing with taboos in social progress, like sexual violence on minors (RE2 remake) and racism (Get Out).
Great Chanel Matt, keep up the good work.
Matt talking about Dead Meat? Crossover when
"HP Lovecraft" :D :D :D
Expose myself to harmful media? Nope, I never watch Fox News.
Euan Smith This is the second channel I viewed this week that points out he looks like Mark Zuckerburg and I am tickled.
Nice video! Sleep away is such a fun movie to watch. If it weren't for the deaths scenes, murders, or ending I think it could've easily been a comedy and/or coming of age story.
Such a good video. Love the way Mildred articulates things.
This is my first time watching this channel and I gotta say, I'm intrigued, and you got my interest.
The grey in your beard mirrors mine. I feel validated.
An even more problematic issue with SLEEPAWAY CAMP's ending is that Angela's male body double was a 17-year-old male crew member. At least that's what someone in the industry told me...
My main guff with horror? Brutal gore for gore's sake. I love atmospheric horror without having to see people realistically skinned or fingernails being removed.
Ironically, that gore usually is so overdone and unrealistic it becomes unintentionally funny instead of scary or disturbing
I like prefer these more broad horror subject type videos over the specific movies/franchises. I hope to see you make more!
I actually don't watch horror personally, the upsetting aspects outweigh the enjoyable for me, but golly gee I enjoy watching Matt talk and gush about horror - so I can vicariously enjoy it. And also this video is such a good take I'm sharing it with people who need to hear it!
I really appreciate this video. Like, more than you can possibly know.
That said, I never looked at Sleepaway Camp, and thought, "Huh, so that's how trans people are made." I'd like to think that most people watching would have the common sense to know better. I would like to think so, but I know there are people who would take away harmful messages and aplly them to their lives. That aside, I think you're right in regard to drawing your individual lines that shouldn't be imposed on others. Particularly in a genre that is specifically designed to be fucked up.
The way you said Matthew in a "you are in trouble now mister" tone, totally brought me back to being in trouble as a kid.
Gonna get real personal here, sorry! I'm a horror movie fan and I was best friends with someone for 10 years who, a few times a year, would go on a tirade about how only shitty people liked horror movies, you could only be f'd up mentally if you did, and had me convinced that my love of horror was because of my anxiety/PTSD, or some other as yet undiagnosed mental disorder. This person is out of my life now, but I still struggle with those thoughts sometimes. This video makes me feel seen, in a weird way. Thank you!
Lolololol, that Lovecraft photo is the funniest fucking thing I've seen all week. Take a bow
I think we are more aware of the problems in the horror genre partially BECAUSE so many marginalized folks found themselves represented in those films (often very very poorly, but sometimes not) and took to writing about the conflict of loving a genre that hates you. There are so many iconic and important film theorists who write specifically on the topic of marginalization in horror, out of a love for the genre, and they should be celebrated with exactly this attitude -- of appreciation and awareness.
I think horror has so many cool film theorists talking about its relation to marginalization and every genre needs this.
If you go by horror as a whole. The black guy rarely is the first to die. On average it's about 1 in every 20 horror films that have a black person in them will have the black character die first. This is going all the way back to 1968's Night of the Living Dead. The reason why this has become popular is that the wayans brothers said it was true, then made films lampooning a trope that they had created. Many films that people think that the black person dies first, are Mandela effect levels of wrong. I've had dozens of people swear that in the film Aliens that Frost dies first. He's the 11th person to die in the film.
I love this. I need reminders like this from time to time.
I really feel what you're saying here but honestly *if you're gonna use Sleepaway Camp as your example you need to acknowledge transmisogyny explicitly.* Communities that exclude trans women like to blur the discourse by calling transmisogyny transphobia and pretending it happens to all trans people equally. I know that camab nb people who aren't trans women are sorta given a pass in these communities if they are self-effacing and don't rock the boat but we need more people to be actually acknowledging this dynamic.
"camab nb people" epic turn of phrase
@@Fopenplop if you don't understand what I'm saying then maybe it's because it has nothing to do with you?
A perspective on horror I've found interesting to consider: horror takes place in a reality where the abstract and metaphorical can be literally real. Evil, in horror, isn't just a moral perspective and argument, but an actual force in the universe. Other things that are abstract concepts also tend to be realized in horror, such as archetypes. (Cabin in the Woods plays very directly with awareness of this property of horror, and is very instructive about the nature of reality in a horror story.)
This relates to problematic elements I think, because horror tends to take cliches and cultural stereotypes and manifest them in the flesh. And horror's relevancy depends a great deal on when it is created; like comedy, horror is tied to a specific cultural era, outside of a few universal fears such as simply being afraid of the unseen. (The fear of the deep.)
This results in horror almost by nature aging badly, as society continues to identify and overturn cultural cliches that have become too entrenched. Looking back at past horror is like a guided tour of whatever was unnerving to society in years past. And of course, we're likely going to find a lot of those things to be problematic. But horror, more than many genres, does seriously require viewing through a historical lens. (And none of this is meant to excuse attitudes of the past.)
Oh wow the new lighting is on point!
Great video Matt! I think about this a lot.