Is Therapy Bad for You? with Abigail Shrier
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- Опубліковано 29 лют 2024
- Support the show on Patreon: / colemanhughes
Today we discuss Abigail Shrier's new book, "Bad Therapy". She explains the harmful effects of therapy, particularly on children and adolescents, and the risks associated with overdiagnosis and overmedication. Shrier also explores the treatment prevalence paradox, where the rates of mental health issues continue to rise despite increased access to therapy. She emphasizes the importance of authoritative parenting and the negative impact of excessive mental health interventions in schools. Additionally, she discusses the controversy surrounding ADHD diagnosis and the ineffectiveness of drug education programs. We discuss the impact of mental health surveys on children, the influence of social media on mental health, the role of mental health professionals in social contagions, the rarity of happiness, the power of exposure therapy and the therapeutic approach, the contagion of Tourette's on TikTok, the controversy surrounding multiple personality disorder, the overdiagnosis of seasonal affective disorder, the importance of exposure therapy in dealing with anxiety, and the implications for parents in approaching therapy.
I 100% agree. During my parent's divorce the court ordered me to have weekly therapy for about 6 years. My parent's divorce was NASTY and I went through serious abuse in my bio-mother's home. The therapy was useless and made things worse. I could not talk about the actual abuse happening and had to sugar coat it so I would not have the parent reported to CPS create more divorce drama and instability, I just told them enough to be taken out of her custody. While in that court mandated therapy, the therapists found I was depressed and tried to get me on lots of drugs. I refused and became super careful to cover up my feelings while in sessions since I was wise enough to realize being depressed was the natural consequence of my messed up childhood, lots of bullying, and the constant pressure from therapists. The best "therapy" I got as a kid was looking at my uncle's and aunt's healthy stable marriage and family - just seeing it from afar gave me a target to aim at.
As a grad student, I did get therapy that I sot out. I was diagnosed with PTSD from the abuse (it was serious, not just being yelled at once in a while), it was affecting my ability to work and connect with other people. There was a limited course of treatments directed at fixing a problem. No drugs. It worked. Therapy has a use, but the extended therapy given in childhood was an expensive, useless, waste of time and it could have made things worse had I not shut down once they tried to get be on drugs and I realized I did not want CPS involved. I was friends with a number of kids that had been taken by CPS and their stories made me think that no matter how bad things were in one parent's home that I needed to hold onto my other parent's home and if there was an over reaction from CPS I could easily fall from the frying pan into the fire. I look back and am so thankful to my younger self for seeing things the way I did.
"The best "therapy" I got as a kid was looking at my uncle's and aunt's healthy stable marriage and family - just seeing it from afar gave me a target to aim at." I relate so much! Family and relational stability matter so much.
It's amazing how just being exposed to a stable family can be such a guiding light. My in laws are both Dr's who grew up in rough conditions. My husband's cousin (their nephew) had a rough life growing up- dad in prison and mom who is an addict and struggled to hold down a job. But just being exposed to my in laws gave him enough to aim for. He recently became a Dr himself and got engaged. His dad since died and his mom is going in and out of jail but he's on a completely different path. I think he's on his way to being a typical suburban dad.
Also hats off to you for navigating that so well at a young age. I can't imagine how difficult it was ❤
Wow what a story. Respect!
I appreciate your openness here. I think there are a lot of moving parts to look at when deciding whether therapy is the right choice for a kid or when the best time to start therapy might be. It's not just black and white, good or bad, but people need to hear real life stories like yours to learn that there's variables at play that they weren't aware of.
We have no coming of age rituals. We've pathologized growing up, play, masculinity, and disagreement.
Any woman who remembers getting her period for the first time would disagree with you…that is certainly a very distinctive coming of age marker
I don't think that's enough of a coming of age for women. Just like ejaculating can be shoking/scary for boys the fist times, it's not enough. Delaying having kids, is for women (and men) just Peter Pan syndrom disguised as empowerment.
Ejaculating for the first time is scary/shoking for men. But I don't think that's enough of a coming of age "rutal".
Men don get periods. So the coming of age is more ritualistic, like drink alcohol for the first time or sex for the first time.
@@SonLuther men get ‚wet dreams‘ ,morning wood‘ and lowered voices, as well as a lot more body hair…
I don‘t think the first time sex is comparable to the first period…certainly different emotions and pain and suffering attached
Coleman is one of the very few public figures in the US who gives me hope for the future of our country.
Agree but I don’t know if he has enough pull or power. Without him joining a bigger party I’m not sure how much influence he can have
Very bright young man, need more Gen Z like him
Rational centrist. Not the most glamorous position, but the most intellectually honest one, yes
💯
Crazy blue haired commies outnumber Coleman 1.000.000 to one....but his soft voice reaches further than the libs outcries.
You almost put your therapist to sleep - who is paid to listen - then you decide to start a podcast. #Legend
Non sequitur.
Wonderful take. Love Coleman but this is f’n funny.
Shoulda put a warning on that comment, I nearly choked on my sandwich when I read it. Take an upvote sir.
I've seen more than a few therapists in my life. Only one appeared to sleep. Older man who had listened to lots of stories over his life. Not Colman. Could have been the therapist.
He’s a propagandist
"What we now call Exposure Therapy, we used to call Parenting." Abigail and Coleman, this was a brilliant conversation. Thank you.
I married an immigrant and she was the first one to point out how fragile people are in US. It was like a curtain lifted from my eyes
Guess it depends on what we're talking about. In my travels I've encountered nationals who were very defensive, overly sensitive, not possessing a good sense-of-humor, hypocritical. In other ways they weren't so whiny or self-pitying or adverse to disagreement in ways too often common for Americans. Strengths and weaknesses across the world. People staring and blatantly ( in a racist way ) talking bad about me in other countries wasn't fun, but again, not like any country is perfect, either. Bad apples everywhere in some form or another.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing that more and more Americans are recognizing that the “get over it” “shit happens” approach to stressors in life isn’t the best way to go about things. It’s almost like concussions in football. For years we all just said “rub some dirt on it and hop back up” and then after ppl started blowing their brains out in front of their kids we decided to take it a little more seriously
@@willis7404- Don't completely agree with you on that. Context always matters. For the person who is growing into yet another version of American Narcissism, "get over it" and "shit happens" can be THE BEST way for them to grow up, i.e. get over themselves. For people who were fundamentally dismissed or worse, abused, then hearing "get over it" can be a fundamentally stagnating or unproductive process for them. Not THE BEST for them in context. Until? There comes a time in life where a person has to grow up. Are we going to never say "get over it"? I"m guessing you will at least agree with me on that point. There is a point where it is un-compassionate to extend yet again some empathy to an individual. Tough Love, done right, can be amazingly good, helpful and compassionate. ( The trick is discerning when, and that takes a wise person as well as usually earning the right in someone's life to speak to another in such a way. )
@@machtnichtsseimann agree, at some point you have to get over it and therapy done right isn’t meant to have some continue to wallow in their depressed mental state. I agree context, and I would add application, is important here. Also depends where you are coming from. The men in my family still abide by the old principle that therapy is a waste of time and money and they should just get over there issues. But that has manifested in strained relationships with their loved ones and an overall jaded personality. One thing Coleman says that I agree with is that men don’t really do a great job of speaking with others so some of that natural and organic therapy women get when they catch up with their friends, men don’t. My friends and I will talk about one thing serious for about 2mins and then when it gets uncomfortable we go into a deep debate over whether the 01 Miami Hurricanes could beat the 2019 LSU Tigers lol.
@@willis7404 It's nothing like concussion in football. Life is brutal [long may it be so] and to survive you need to be robust and resilient.
I had a traumatic experience with a therapist in 9th Grade. Therapy was ending and he told me that from his experience I was the type of person that would end up spending a long time in prison. I'm 54 now, I've never had any run-in with law enforcement. I've never even gotten a traffic ticket and I drove professionally for more than a decade. That is on messed up thing to say to a child suffering from trauma, "I can see you are going to be loser with no hope." I can only assume he told me that out of some misguided hope that it might help me avoid that outcome.
If he did do it for that reason it seems to have worked? But yeah most likely is he’s just a dick
As someone with ADD and having a son with it as well, I was very against medication until I finally gave in when my son started 8th grade. My son went from failing in school to graduating with an advanced high school diploma, he went to college and now in his 30 has a great career. He wouldn’t have had that the way he was heading. I started after being evaluated. It seriously changed my life where I can accomplish something, I don’t feel anything from it but I am able to concentrate and get things done. I don’t believe it should be prescribed as much as it is now. Or be given to young kids. But it really helps those that need it.
What meds did the trick for you?
These two would take them off you in a heartbeat just to flex their egos
@@jolima vyanse
as an elementary educator, i can speak to both sides of this. sometimes, kids are overmedicated and other approaches would do great.
Sometimes, meds are a dramatic game changer with serious positive effect.
and all the risk associated with using amphetamines long time are worth it? cardiovascular issues,? weight issues, brain shrinkage etc What a risk. The school system and work place is toxic for many people and so we're now expected to drug our people to have them fit in with what is essentially a disordered systems? There are also many things missing from the story of 'the drugs helped' so many factors will have played a part but our minds have to simplify the complexity to it was the drugs or the therapy etc. The entire concept of 'add' or now 'adhd' along with the rest of the DSM disorders lack scientific reliability and validity because there are zero objective tests leading to accurate diagnosis via identification of aetiology or a proximal cause. Its a scientific fraud.
I was forced to go to therapy for an eating disorder when I was 19 AFTER I WAS ALREADY RECOVERED. I was told by multiple people "It can only help." They were so wrong. Going to therapy just made me feel worse. One therapist I visited tried to convince me that I really wasn't okay and that I was just avoiding the problem. I was trying to move forward, and they tried to stick me back in the past .
I love when Abigail talked about ruminating, because that's exactly how I felt. They made me go back and re-live my pain when I was doing so much better, and all it did was hurt me. They seemed to think that it wasn't possible I had recovered on my own without "professional" help, as if I'm not resilient enough to overcome things on my own.
Hi! sorry you went through that. I don't think the people around you had any ill intent, having a professional help you find the root of your issues is (sometimes) important so you can avoid relapsing in the future.
Part of the problem with misdiagnosis thats not even talked about here is the fact that insurance wont cover treatment unless someone has a diagnosis. There is a lot of pressure on therapists to come up with a diagnosis for this reason. That said, the onus is on the therapist for making sure that "ptsd" or "adhd" is not just an adjustment disorder or prolonged grief
Coleman, I've been a psychotherapist for 36 years, and agree with most points made here, & strive for brief treatment - if I'm successful, my patient/client will "lay me off", realizing the no longer need appointments with me.
The reason SSRI patients are statistically more prone to suicidal behavior is mostly simple statistics: almost all SSRI patients are depressed, and so are almost all suicidal individuals, and understandably, their physicians usually try SSRIs, as the go-to Rx.
Would you blame beta blockers because most CARDIAC patients who die were on them?
That said, I'm cynical about the prevalence of psych med prescribing.
Happy to talk further with you about this, psychotherapy or mental health.
Great work, topics, guests, tact.
Probably the part where there’s already a mass study on how SSRIs are nothing more than a marketing ploy from the pharmaceutical industry and with the exception of that rare 1% of those who “respond” to it, it’s always been more harm and no good.
I suggest you thoroughly peruse through the work of Robert Whitaker, Peter Gøetzhe, Bonnie Burtsow, and Joanna Moncrieff.
Enough with the SSRIs hogwash.
I thought the same re SSRIs - seemed to me a simple case of correlation rather than causation, and I was surprised to see it framed as an industry-wide conundrum. Presumably most of the control group were already suicidal and that's why they were prescribed the drugs in the first place.
Great conversation though, always nice to be introduced to unique perspectives that contravene the prevailing cultural narrative
I hope you do speak with him. Shrier presents very biased work that these seemingly intelligent men lap right up.
Came here after your visit to The View. Its rare to see someone so aggresively wrong. She wanted to bully you away from your opinion and scare her viewers away from you. To poison the well. You handled it perfectly, with a great combination of preparedness and class. Checking out more of your work now
Great to have you back Coleman! I am sure a lot of us were waiting and wondering when you would be back to restart these very valuable conversations.
I was just wondering why I hadn’t seen his vids pop up
Coleman’s back - The world got a little bit wiser.
54:12 I'm glad she mentioned cognitive behavioral therapy positively. It's *supposed* to be structured so that you are given mental exercises to do at home such as exposure to build mental resilience and stop ruminating. Like physical therapy, you make specific plans for a few weeks of intense work, then you’re done, with the problem fixed and/or enough resources to continue to improve on your own. It also doesn’t deal with “causes” since many anxieties/phobias/etc. don’t necessarily even have some dramatic cause but is just a result of rumination. It’s starkly different to talk therapy which is often designed to have no ending and assumes some trauma behind every negative emotion. Alas, as she said, now many therapists are claiming to do CBT because it’s becoming a buzzword, but it’s just talk therapy.
She likes CBT because she’s looking at the research that says that it’s good but it’s just the most well researched therapy because the founder was very well-connected and academia. CBT is essentially reframing and a skill that everyone should learn. I don’t even think it’s therapy.
@@Gettingitrealyes, good points. I do consider it therapy in a similar way physical therapy or speech therapy are types of therapies. Or, at least it’s a therapy when it’s guided by someone else, I guess. Behavioral therapy helps retrain your brain to work better while talk therapy for many is just a very expensive listening session.
CBT is good for people with depression, anxiety, etc. But honestly harmful for neurodivergent people, so I get why some people are against it.
@@Gettingitreal I don't get your point. You're simply talking about semantics.
Phobias are never cause it by rumination, it can be amplified but never cause it, you are very wrong, before start talking about something study the subject a little more
The cheapenning of various diagnosis like "ptsd" and "adhd" and "trauma" is very harmful. There seems to be a desire to post a diagnosis, and for people to search for the surrender to be "diagnosed". Moreover, the declared focus on negative emotions and experiences is by itself a high risk of being destructive.
The "cheapening" protocol is so negative. Take "me, too." It equates the harm in a pat on the arm with harrassment, and worse.
You're equating "diagnosis" with "people who misuse a diagnosis." This is VERY dangerous. If someone is using a diagnosis a way to get pity and as an excuse to not heal, THEY ARE MISUSING THEIR DIAGNOSIS. PERIOD. Wtf do you mean with "cheapening" a diagnosis? If a doctor is diagnosing you with anything, mental OR physical, it is because that diagnosis can be used to guide treatment/strategies that will improve your life. That is literally the whole point of a diagnosis. Most physical and mental ailments are on a spectrum. If someone has mild PTSD and someone has severe PTSD, it's not a fucking contest - the reason they both get the same diagnosis is because they will likely both respond to similar types of treatments/strategies. If you cut your finger on a nail and you're like "I'm not gonna put antibacterial ointment on it because that would be disrespectful to people who were slashed by a knife, now those guys have REAL cuts," see how fucking dumb that sounds?
If someone desires to "post a diagnosis," THEY ARE USING THE DIAGNOSIS INCORRECTLY.
If someone desires to "surrender to a diagnosis" rather than use it to guide healing/coping strategies, THEY ARE USING THE DIAGNOSIS INCORRECTLY.
Blame the person.
NOT the diagnosis OR the act of diagnosing.
By your logic, because some people eat tide pods, we should probably start calling out Tide as a company for their harmful product. Again - see how dumb that sounds?
It’s almost an inherent aspect of for-profit medicine combined with spectrum disorders and non-scientific diagnoses
@@ZombieLincoln666 I understand part of your point, I agree that spectrum disorders are unfortunate misdirections of diagnoses.
I mentioned something along these lines on a Facebook group I was a member of, and was turned on and strongly criticised. My point was that we need to be developing anti-fragility as an antidote to our day to day problems. I guess some people just prefer a medical diagnosis which means they have a reason (excuse?) for their problems. It seems so crazy to me.
Our third-grade classroom had internet on 9/11, but it wasn't on all day. So I didn't know about the Twin Towers attack until I heard it on the car radio. The next day, kids wanted to talk about it. I said we would discuss it for a half hour and then return to our normal schedule. We did. I answered questions. None of the students brought the subject up later in the day. If I had made a big deal of discussing feelings and fears, they would have been horribly stressed out. Or so I believe.
why would you even ask them to bring up feelings and fears in a classroom setting? that's not the right place at all. The right place is with people you trust, so at home, with a therapist or with friends.
I've long held her view, and I'm glad to see her share it.
Dear Mr. Hughes, I watched your performance on the View and wanted to say I was stunned by your emotional control and impressive debating skills. I think you have the leadership qualities our country needs. If you need a worker to assist you in your cause, I may have interest in providing that work. I don't know what a person like me can offer. But you inspired me to offer help if any help is needed.
I partly agree wtih Ms Shrier and defer to her research. Not discussed is the subject of brain care. People forget that the brain is a part of the body and brain cells require good nutriton and rest to function well. Get adequate sleep, stay well hydrated, cut out the junk food and eat 10 servings of vegetables and fruits (mostly vegetables) a day along with walnuts (or something for omega 3s), grains and beans and watch how fast mental health would improve.
Who da fuk gets 10 servings a day of veggies and or fruit. Besides you apparently.
People who forget that the brain is part of the body have problems nutrition can’t solve.
Yes, but not mostly vegetables. Mostly meat or animal protein. Vegetables contain a fraction of the protein and nutrition and healthy fats of vegetables.
Also ten servings is insane. Eat only 2-3 times a day and eat your ideal body weight in grams of protein is the proper goal. Avoid plant protein because you only absorb 50% of it as it’s not bioavailable.
After my parents got divorced when I was in 2nd grade I went to therapy and it was terrific... and then the therapist moved away. I became re-traumatized by abandonment issue. It was a pretty cruel thing to have to go through.
I’m a long time paid subscriber to Coleman’s podcast and I always appreciate his show. I’ve been eagerly awaiting this next episode and as a parent of 9 & 11 years old children, this conversation is much appreciated. Thank you for always producing excellent content and conversations Coleman! Despite your youth, I believe you are arguably the most mature and wise voice in this space.
I started suffering from severe depression in my 20s. Drink and drugs only made it worse. I then started exercising everyday, improved my diet and gave up alcohol. However, it wasn't until I started practicing Zen meditation every day that I saw a tangible improvement. Now 28 years later I experience blissful states of mind everyday. Zen allows you to transcend the stream of negative thoughts and emotions running through your mind and enables you to function from a non-dualistic non-conceptual awareness of the present moment.
How did you start your practice, if I may ask?
@@LilLamb-headquarters I read the "Three Pillars of Zen" by Roshi Phillip Kapleau. It's a classic. However, I would thoroughly recommend doing an introduction to Zen training weekend course as soon as possible. In the US I'd recommend Zen Mountain Monastery and in the UK, Throssel Hole Soto Zen Monastery.
@@StimParavane- Good for you in making good changes and finding greater balance through meditation. May I suggest looking into the teachings of Christ and the Christian tradition of contemplation/meditation in such mystics like John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Julian of Norwich. Still, the greatest peace is found in the Way of Christ. Respectfully, as a fellow traveler, I hope you are open to this great Love. Nothing compares to God. Grace and Truth to you.
@@machtnichtsseimann I am amused at the spiritual conceit inherent in your reply suggesting that Christianity is superior to Buddhism. I have indeed studied St John of the Cross, in-depth, and also Teresa of Avila and clearly they both had profound experiences of the divine. I have had this kind of response several times before and it reveals that not only do you have a relatively shallow understanding of spirituality but also of your own tradition. As Zen Master Ikkyu said, "Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain but at the peak, we all gaze at the single bright moon".
@@machtnichtsseimann Harry Potter is a better magical savior than Jesus. He defied tyrannical govt to fight the greater evil and won. Meditate on how his victory over Voldemort won scholarships to Hogwarts for al believers.
Why wouldn't unscrupulous therapists overdiagnose? More office visits, more money.
Just watched you on the View and you were exceptional. Incredibly composed in the face of difficult (mostly personal attacks) questions. Really well done buddy
My husband and I are American. I did most of the child-raising. One kid is super-sensitive; the other doesn't worry much; both are good at about 30yo. Resisting urges to over-mother, I often said, "I know you can wrestle with that..." I realize this parenting device kept me in the loop, while reducing my stress. A child's unhappiness has a depressive effect on moms!
Abigail is amazing! Thank you, Coleman, for having her on your show!
LPC here.
It’s really unfortunate that neither of you seem to have run across good counseling and truly committed therapist.
What you each describe isn’t counseling, but unhealthy practices by humans who happen to be licensed.
Counseling is one of the few professions where good work only comes from a professional who’s actually done the work they help guide clients through.
this conversation is baffling, full of anecdote and fearmongering.
I'm a long time fan of Coleman and his perspectives, but I'm extremely disappointed in him giving a platform to someone who is grossly unqualified to be speaking about the topic they are speaking on. I hope he realized how dangerous this video is and takes it down, or at least reuploads it with a disclaimer.
I have to agree. I am a HUGE fan of Coleman, and I really liked Abigail's last book, but she is over generalizing and not representing what most therapists do in this book. Yes, the American Psychological Association is a woke nightmare, but most therapists are helpful in spite of it. Read any research by Jonathan Shedler and find out why.
I’m in the UK and new to your channel. Thank you both so much. I am so fed up with listening to the youth of today. They seem to revel in being victims. It’s normal for us all to have issues in life. You don’t need to find blame for feeling shitty. Just get over it and get on with on. That’s how you feel better, because you leave it behind and grow. Thank you. Jeff 👍👍👍
Welcome back, Coleman. Congrats on publishing your book. I listened on Audible. It was excellent.
Great conversation with Abigail. She's somewhat of a personal hero to me. I admire her deeply.
The problem with society claiming life in general is traumatic, therefore everyone is traumatized makes it even more difficult for those civilians who do have trauma and PTSD be validated and accepted. It's not typical but there are civilians who are traumatized and it could be worse than war. Most people don't go through a life like that, but some do.
If you actually did some reading, you would know that psychologists call it Big T and little t trauma to distinguish that you can have things that hurt but aren't necessarily rape or violence but still need to be addressed. They have found that neglect when a child has almost the same effect as something with Big T trauma even though nothing violent happened.
A trauma diagnosis is a tool to guide healing, not an identity for idiots on tik tok to use. Coleman needs to get off the internet and educate himself on what actual mental health treatment entails
I feel like when people tell you to feel guilty because of your race, gender, or sexual orientation, its a form of abuse. I've never had a therapist do that to me but I can imaging one doing that these days
Even when someone ( therapist or any person ) doesn't tell you, it can be implied or a tearing down snide comment out of the corner of their mouth. An older white man, highly educated, made a self-deprecating comment along the lines of White Shame ( worse than Guilt ), I caught it and called him out on it, and he suddenly stopped and realized what he'd done. Like a light went off. We don't tolerate racism, or at least it's popular to rail against it, when done against black people. Why one earth would it be OK or even good to do it against white people? Sick stuff that's tolerated and often celebrated. Brainwashing has taken root. Gotta keep rooting it out.
I have had some pretty "woke" therapists and not one has ever tried to make me feel guilty for being a straight white male.
My hubby sent this to me to watch and I was all ready to be upset. I’m a therapist and I appreciated your nuance. Yes, it does depend on the client & the therapist. There are ppl who have major diagnoses (schizophrenia, bipolar, etc) that may need long term therapy, but typically my goal is to work towards goals and work myself out of a job. I provide tools for life so they can handle anxiety, communication, conflict, etc on their own. Most my clients are with me less than a year. The problem with over-diagnoses is insurance companies require a diagnoses. I have my go tos but unless I’m both sure and think it matters (Sometimes a diagnoses is helpful to understand what is happening or where to find resources), I usually keep it to myself.
I’ve had a fair bit of therapy. After a very low, low saw a psychiatrist who diagnosed bipolar. Wouldn’t go near a psychologist again, complete waste of time & money for me. My psychiatrist sees me 2x a year only & he never minces his words. 😊
I have spent substantial time with 3 different therapists. None of them applied any special knowledge or expertise. None of them had a treatment plan. It was just paying someone to pretend to be my friend for an hour a week. Aside from the ideological problems with many therapists, I think the industry as a whole is just falsely advertised. You pay them to be skilled professionals when so many of them have no special skills.
Great to have you back Coleman! I was getting worried and kept checking to see if you had given any update on where you were. Looking forward to this one!
Great talk. This is a very interesting conversation. I sent this to my wife. She is very interested in the subjects of therapy and trauma and is an advocate for everyone needing therapy.
Thank you for this episode!
Coleman you are a very wise and thoughtful young man. From an old lady this is praise indeed
I relate to Coleman story, i did a therapy session after a breakup and it really help but at some point when the situation I was going trought was solve i did not felt the need to continue. So there is a need but its contextual and that the most important point in my opinion.
Hi Coleman -- love you show and have been listening to you for years. I also really enjoyed this conversation you had with Abigail on this topic, which I mostly agree with: therapy DOES have pros and cons, and I do think that many parents have been abdicating their responsibility as parents to "medical experts," instead of doing the hard work of raising their own children, including being emotional and physically available to guide the youth into adulthood.
However, I have to say I don't fully agree with you or Abigail's take on ADHD, and I would recommend having a guest on your podcast who is a leading researcher on ADHD. His name is Thomas E. Brown (side note, anyone interested in learning more can UA-cam his name alongside ADHD). He has researched ADHD for most of his career and it was his work that ultimately helped me realize that I have ADHD. I am a woman in my 30s and was only diagnosed a few years ago with ADHD. (BTW, it Thomas E. Brown won't talk to you, at least go with Andrew Huberman, I noticed he's a popular podcast guest in these circles and he's got a great 2 hour podcast on his show about ADHD).
I think, just like the pros and cons of therapy, it's important to acknowledge that there are pros and cons of treating ADHD with medication. I have ADHD and personally can hardly REMEMBER to take my medication on any given day and when I have taken ADHD meds before, I never felt high or dependent on the medication. The only thing that I would have happen to me was a post medication crash where I'd just feel really tired. Compared to feeling scatterbrained and finding it near impossible to complete the simplest of task, a few hours of exhaustion were more beneficial to me personally than a full day of scattered semi-productivity. THAT SAID. I am one individual and I am not prescribing my method of treatment to anyone else.
Re you personally taking ADHD meds as someone who does not have ADHD: Just like I can't fathom what is is like to have bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, I don't imagine someone without ADHD can understand fully what taking ADHD medication does to an ADHD brain. I understand what you were trying to say with this -- how can this medication not have side effects -- but I also think it's important to contextualize this. ADHD is a neurological disorder and stimulants are prescribed as a way to treat the ADHD brain's inability to effectively transmit signals across neurons that help with attention regulation and task competition. It is thought that a deficiency in the brain's ability to transmit dopamine (AMOUNG other things) is what leads to the ADHD brain's inability to REGULATE attention. ADHD is not an attention deficient disorder, but an ATTENTION REGULATION disorder. It's a complex disorder and truly fascinating and is often misrepresented by social media advocates and naysayers alike.
I write this comment from a place of respect, as I fully agree that ADHD is in some ways over diagnosed and over romanticized AND presented as something quirky on social media; medication is also not for everyone, however for people who actually have ADHD, ADHD is not quirky, it is not romantic, and it is important for those of us who need medications to be able to access medication so that we can function better in society. There is of course not a one size fits all approach to treating the disorder.
I would love to see you explore the nuances of ADHD further, as it truly a complicated disorder.
Just some thoughts for further exploration. Also looking forward to reading your book! :)
This was a beautiful and genuine conversation with a lot of thoughtful questions and relatable experiences. I shared this with everyone I could think of because I think it’s something every human should listen to. I heard the warnings and cautionary tales, but I also heard lots of suggestions that could be helpful in our every day decision making. Thank you for this podcast.
Finally, you’re back! I keep checking in regularly, and I’m glad to see you posting content again.
You are a class act Coleman. Thanks for this interview with Abigail.
I am therapist. Happened to be a conservative one and a Christian.. My focus is on personal responsibility and client striving towards their attainable goal. A part of my model is more than the routine, I also incorporate spirituality which is not taught in grad school and which I find is a major part of what ails most people. Lack of meaning. Deep existential crises. I create treatment plans with my clients and we both work towards that. When the client achieves those goals, client and I discussed readiness to end therapy. That could be one month, three months, six months, one year.
What I disliked about Abigail Shrier's thesis is that the she portrays therapists only makes sense if the profession is full of bad actors. That can't be true any more than the notion that all journalists are cynics with axes to grind.
@@alancoogan7029she is also promoting her book. She also has mostly focused on the more political aspects of mental health. I also look at meeting goals with my clients and that there is an end date with my clients. Those of us who work with people have had trauma such as sexual abuse, neglect, physical abuse, having a loved one murdered, domestic violence and working with couples who want to stay married and willing to make changes have seen positive changes and growth. I would not stay in a field and create dependency on clients. The problem is replicating the medical model, pharmaceutical companies involvement and profiteering from non clinicians making money. I am also glad I did my undergraduate program at a private university where I had a rigorous program and learned how to read research. My graduate program was already becoming over focused on politics rather than solid academia. I had to be a very independent learner and seek out information myself during that time.
@@alancoogan7029 I don't think that's a fair critique. She's very clear it's not so much that therapy/therapists aren't doing any good at all, it's just that there's a huge cultural and professional blind spot to unintended consequences or secondary affects that we don't have with other "good" fields like doctors, lawyers, journalists, etc.
Most doctors aren't bad actors either, but imagine how risky they'd be if both they and their patients didn't fundamentally understand that their treatment suggestions carry their own risks. Imagine a doctor prescribing knee surgery for every time you get a minor pain. That's what would happen. Doesn't make them a bad person, makes them bad at-risk management, which I have no doubt therapist often are (have several in my close family.)
This is a great and important conversation. I appreciate having the language to express the concerns that I have with the over-reliance on therapy.
Great interview, Coleman!
Got an ad in the middle of this video with a girl bragging about being in therapy since age 6 😅
No no no adhd diagnoses helped me understand what I needed to be successful. It's not an end, it's a beginning.
yeah the thesis here seems to be that understanding yourself is not important and that if you just ignore problems they go away. Meanwhile people in therapy are attempting to address their problems rather than run away from them. It's baffling that people see that as weak.
Can you guy's argue against what was said, not what you imagine they said? No one said therapy should "go away." They said it's overprecribed. Yeah, it can help a lot of people. Or it could harm them. Like all things in abundance can.
@@myself2noone I agree. Their arguments are valid. ie- not everyone needs or benefits from therapy
Once again another great interview! Thanks for sharing this!
All I know is, I will keep listening to your voice of reason. Keep up the great work, it is alway appreciated.
Awesome topic & conversation! "Everyone should go to therapy" became a zeitgeist on UA-cam so I hope many people engage in this important conversation
I've been to therapists in the past. Only one of them helped at all. Cognitive therapist. When this happens, do this instead, ect. Change your habit, pattern, reaction. Most therapist are broken people and go into the profession for that reason. IMO.
Practical mental tools are the best! Bless those doctors. The documentary named after Jonah Hills therapist was intriguing to me.
I found it challenging to listen to this podcast as I am biased towards therapy being beneficial. I myself have used therapy (CBT, ACT, etc) and found it useful, because like what Coleman mentioned, some things are better talked about with strangers then friends/family. But of course finding a "good" therapist is like trying to find a good doctor. You have to do your work and see if you mesh with your therapists. There are all types of therapies, so do your homework and see what works for you. I think therapy can be a useful tool, but it's not a fix for every situation. Therapy is not the holy grail, so I hear what Abigail is saying.
I don't really hear what she is saying because she's taking the outliers and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
@BigBADSTUFF69 She's basically saying not all therapists have your best interest at heart, so be cautious. Some have agendas, so watch out for those. At least, that's what I got out of this conversation. But to me, the problem isn't as bad as she makes it sound. She gave like one type of therapy (talk theraphy) and made a whole argument based on that. Therapy is an umbrella term for several types of treatments, so I found her argument off putting and making it seem like talk and affirmation therapies were the only kind. She probably should do more research if she's going to make the argument that "therapy is bad."
Yes but how often should something be talked about? It’s like picking at old wounds. Since leaving therapy I can say I feel 100 times better. Acceptance and resilience really are the only two things you need. She’s right most therapists don’t care, after two years of going I suddenly stopped, my therapist didn’t even call to see if was still alive. That tells you everything you need to know about most therapists.
That’s a lot of words to basically admit you’re not very smart. CBT, ACT, DBT, and so forth, when really looked and studied or just basically common sense ,that’s it. I find it laughable that anyone could actually read the core tenants of these therapeutic methods and call it in anyway insightful because it’s not. It’s literally common sense divided, and then re-wrapped in a money making package for their so-called “therapist”.
She is trying to sale a book, but you would think that the simple statement- we have more therapy, anti drpressants and youth in therapy than ever before and theres more depression, suicide and unhapppiness in youth than ever before, would make people at least a little skeptical about therapy. Read the book.
Considering the many different schools of psychotherapy, it would be helpful if you defined what you mean by therapy. There is no doubt that there are incompetent therapists who take on patients they shouldn't, misdiagnose, and make unnecessary interventions. There are also plenty of competent therapists who are responsible and helpful. This conversation doesn't feel sufficiently informed or nuanced.
it's almost like she made it all up
I’m pausing therapy as of a week ago after she told me to take an enneagram test. Shrier speaks the truth
Right the enneagram test has no validity at all and can change.
that is silly, but that doesn't discredit the vast majority of therapists who are science based and would not do that. There are bad therapists just like there are bad doctors.
@@BigBADSTUFF69 all doctors are nerds who didn’t party in college so they didn’t try any of the drugs they become pushers of. If you think being shills for the commercialized science of psychiatry is good, idk what you think bad doctors are doing.
Please don’t be sorry for being busy promoting your book, which you’ve put a lot of hard work into (I’ve purchased 📕today) and to catch-up on yourself. I’ve been following you for some time now… relate to your commentary and admire your bravery. Keep it up from a friend in London, Great Britain. Look forward to whenever you post and hearing about your achievements 🙏🏼
I visit Rec Centres as part of my work. When u see a group of disabled children meeting for a group session your problems seem insignificant. I can barely keep from weeping every time I see that, and I’m not a nice guy.
👏🏽 GREAT to see the podcast back, sir! And considering how much work it takes to promote a book, I would’ve understood having to wait longer.
it reminds me of how "betterhelp" let's users switch therapists as many times as they want. i bet a lot of people just seek a therapist that will enable them and don't challenge anything they say.
That's how everything works whether it's choosing a doctor or a therapist.
I think Abigail Shrier is partly right regarding the skyrocketing rates of declining mental health. But there is another side to the story, one that the emerging field of metabolic mental health is adressing. I don't know, if you already know them, but I would hihgly recommend Chris Palmer ("Brain Energy") and Georgia Ede ("Change your diet, change your mind") to be interviewed on this podcast. Of course really cool would be to bring those three together in a discussion.
Btw: the "getting-used-to-it" effect of exposure therapy works not just for anxiety. It is the mechanism of adaptability that enabled humans to live in every condition on this planet.
15:00 I'm pretty sure a therapist saying they think you might have PTSD is not an official diagnosis.
Only psychiatrists are qualified to diagnose
So many Teachers in the Canadian public school systems are adamant about getting boys on medication. As a mother of four children, I volunteered in the system at 8 different schools over 11 years and it was absolutely disgusting. Many of us knew the teachers that would demand parents put their kids on medication year after year. The vice principles and principles of the schools were always on board and backed the teachers. heartbreaking.
Such a good comment on the difference between children and adults, how children can't say 'actually I'm done now'. When I was a kid I had some therapy and the counsellor actually said to me and my mum "I don't think she needs this anymore, I think it's only going to make things worse to keep going over stuff". Must have been a really good counsellor to say that.
Wow! As an aspiring psychiatrist , I really loved this. I’m an immigrant who came to the west, and my initial impression atleast does go towards a lot of over diagnosis happening. Who knows, maybe one day I will be sitting with Coleman with my experience from within the industry. One Good thing is that I have discussed similar topics with some newer psychiatrists, and there is a growing number of clinicians who are trying to shift away from such practices
I am so relieved to have you back. I was worried that you were abandoning your free content.
I just recently discovered Colman Hughes Gotta say your awesome Keep doing all this good work. Big fan
You can definitely feel the difference when you take stimulants if you have ADHD.
Normally I feel like I'm on a fast car and trying to read boards on the road. That's have I normally feel when I try to track my thoughts, it is so fast that I can't see what I'm thinking. One moment I'm thinking doing laundry and the next moment I'm on the kitchen realizing I'm doing dishes for 30 minutes, thinking it only have been couple minutes.
The first time I took Ritalin I just felt my brain slowed in a good way. Not numb, not sleepy, just slow enough that I can read thoughts passing by.
So yes, I felt more "normal".
A very sane discussion--common sense! Thank you.
Oh wow ... the rumination thing is really important. A former friend of mine, who clearly has some kind of Cluster B personality disorder, started going to therapy a few years ago. And her symptoms started getting worse. She became more hostile, more resentful, more inclined to lash out. I wonder if therapy actually exacerbated the condition. If she was getting validation for these unhealthy thought patterns from a professional, it seems likely that this person may have actually given her the impression that they were healthy and normal rather than disordered. Could this play into the anecdotally observed rise of Cluster B type behavior patterns?
I was so excited when I saw this upload. I had horrible experiences in therapy. The incentive structure in mental health is frankly dystopian.
Great interview. Thanks Abigail Shrier.
Now I've got the Bon Jovi song rewritten in my head. "You're love is like, Bad Therapy"
Just stopping by to state. You have my vote in anything you do. I am getting your book. Thank you for your voice.
Hijacking this most recent youtube. I just listened to your Conversations with Coleman with Andrew Sullivan a few days after the 2020 election. I would love a repeat today, since so much in retrospect is ironic, and who would imagine in 2020 we'd be where we are today?
Abigail is awesome!
22:15 I really need this podcast! where can i find it???
Coleman is very intelligent but his calmness is his secret weapon. So rare these days!
Maybe I’m an anecdote, but I had wonderful educated non-hitting parents, yet the very few times in my life I was hit by my much bigger father, I was terrified and have never forgotten it. How many parents actually hit as a “rational punishment” - that’s a fantasy. And my gut tells me little girls experience father hits way differently than little boys. This conversation is incomplete. More nuance and individual differences needed. Although therapy is mostly useless, and also harmful, I agree. Social science has precious little science and yet suffers also from data manipulation from publishing pressure. I’ve always asked for “success” measures and never heard them articulated.
What a great podcast. Thank you.
The best kind of knowledge is the one that affirms everybody's common intuition. Thanks a lot for an amazing introduction to this topic.
Glad to see you back, Coleman.
6:25 - as soon as Coleman finished his point on therapy being pushed everywhere, I got yet another advert for 'Therapy' and finding a local counsellor... Impeccable timing 😅
Only ~ 12:00 minutes in, and just want to say that while I do agree with the idea that not all therapy is valuable, I really push back against Coleman’s assertion that it’s approximately equivalent to talking with friends about your personal issues. In fact, there is an enormous gulf between those two things, in the cases where (1) people genuinely need therapy, and (2) they happen to have a very good, smart therapist. Coleman is describing an otherwise well functioning person going through a difficult time, who probably worked with not the most talented therapist in the world.
I love how all the resistors stop watching before they comment. Therapy has very little scientific support for its efficacy despite what you read. As if there were no way for people to be psychologically healthy until the invention of contemporary psychodynamic therapy in the 1960s.
Yeah of course people can get healthy before and after the 60’s without a therapist but a good one has treatment goals, and an engaged client/patient will learn how to modify their behaviours that lead to positive change. Some people don’t know how to do it alone without a safe space to discuss history and confidential thoughts
But yeah a bad therapist is useless and can make things worse
So many powerful points. Also, I'm so happy Coleman is back. Please don't go away :)
I have a nephew who is 16. He is being raised by his grandmother and step-grandfather who have custody of him.
His biological parents are wastes of skin. My nephew is verbally abusive of his guardians. He is 6' feet tall and weighs over 200lbs. He is physically strong, and his grandparents are afraid of him. He has run away twice, the last time he stole thousands of dollars and a car from them. He has discipline problems at school.
He is a classic example of a young man who needs to be taken "in hand." In other words he nerds to be physically dominated and taught that there can be real and immediate consequences for bad behavior. But no one will do it because they don't want to face abuse charges.
He only responds to physical strength, but the state forbids it. This is a recipe for real problems.
they gotta get rid of that lousy kid
She is doing the rounds..New book out
Yeah, she was on Peterson's podcast. It was an exceptional interview
Will she go to Tucker Carlson to promote this book the way she did the last one? Don't get me wrong. Her book on ROGD was excellent and necessary. The problem was that by associating with toxic figures, she picks up their stink and the demographic who most need to get the message will tune her out.
I am glad she did. It was a good book and I would never have known.
@@alancoogan7029That is an intetesting point. Maybe Vaush will have her on.
One thing about exposure therapy- it seems like it’s seen as abuse in America.
I was on a pregnancy/parenting app and people were saying that if their child ever wants to miss school for a “mental health” day, they can. I disagreed, saying it will strengthen them to know that you can withstand something, rather than quit and stay in bed all day at the first sign of discomfort.
Well, they said it was abusive if I would “force” them to go to school against their consent. It’s like today is a bizarre opposite-world where kids are the boss and parents are submissive.
that's not what therapists would say, they aren't a bunch of suburban moms
He’s back!
I'm torn. I've benefitted from therapy. As I've grown older though, I have started to suspect that the therapeutic relationship is also being asked to take on mentoring and coaching responsibilities. Those are different intervention tactics with their own paradigms that are incongruent with medical diagnoses, from my folkloric understanding.
One year, the DARE officer came to my third grade. Students had been playing "dope dealer". One kid presented me with a baggie containing tiny packets of chalk dust. One girl even had it caked around her nostril. When they were called to the office, they laughed and announced they were going to "kids' jail". The uniformed officer showed a slide, which was a sampler platter of illegal drugs. He asked if anyone had seen these things. Nearly every hand went up. Kids were calling out: I've seen cough syrup and Wite-out. My dad gets drunk and does heroin. And so on. INobody would admit they hadn't been around drugs. Some were making it up. Others had seen it in person or on TV. I intervened twice as they got wild and disrespectful. This is not inner city and I sincerely doubt that girl's dad did heroin. Not a successful intervention by any stretch.
I don't know about that, I literally did acid in 8th grade the day we had DARE
I've been listening to this Abigail lady on various podcasts and I dont know there's just something I dont like about her and her message. Can anyone help me figure out what it is?
it's probably that she has a thinly veiled agenda, it's carfully concealed because she never outright says "woke" but it's there nontheless. It's not sceince based though, that's for sure.
The thing about outward focus making you happier is interesting bc I think I remember reading that Extraversion on big 5 involves experiencing more positive emotion, and it makes sense to some degree. Maybe for us introverts it’s good to acknowledge that we may not be as “happy” or excitable as some of our extraverted friends, but that is normal to a degree and we can accept we have different wiring while also being grateful for these external things in our lives and also have good social relationships. We don’t need to feel bad for being different.
*This is so massively critical for parents to understand.* My son was an extremely picky eater as a child and I had these leftist urban "savior", God-complex of a pediatrician, trying to get me to take my child to a psychiatrist for an eating disorder... he was 2-years old! I stood my ground and refused at every turn, she went so far as to note in the records that my child seemed "fearful." I again confronted her and said, yeah he's afraid because your being weird! I took him in for pink eye once and she made us wait while she secretly called a specialist to come over and examine what she said looked like a contusion. The specialist (also a white woman) looked at her and said, "it's textbook pinkeye!" This witch was willing to have my son start life with a mental health issue and tried to prove abuse that was bloody imaginary!
I was hit all the time as a form of punishment for normal kids disobedience and I hold no grudge towards my mother for it. However, now it seems my mother suffered more from it. I have children of my own now and do not believe I can ever hit them because it effects the patent far more than the child. ❤
Really sorry to hear about your mom. I’m sure she’ll be really proud of you 🙌🏾🙌🏾
Great discussion.
Quality over quantity is always a good move in my book. Keep up the good work Coleman!
Just come across you from bein on the View. Absolutely love your mindset and what you stand for. Excited to read your book. Thank you for trying to help figure out all this commotion between the race issues.
DARE worked on me. It scared the shit out of me. I'm 47 and I've never tried any drugs besides alcohol, which i don't like that much
Me too
We used to get high before DARE simply because it was such an out of touch silly program.
Lmao.
That’s good, it had the opposite effect on me
22:46 A good therapist will not keep you coming back just to boost their income. Their time is limited and they will have plenty of referrals. Only a bad therapist would need to do that.
yeah therapists will absolutely not keep seeing you just for money, they are booked solid. My therapist left my insurance group last month and I haven't even been able to find one that fits my schedule