CLIPPING MASTERING CONVERTERS
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
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In this video David tests the Dangerous Convert AD+ for clipping in mastering
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That so much to know! Thank you very much, David, for sharing your experience with others!
Just leaving a comment to say I got the AD+ today, mainly thanks to David's videos and opinions about this machine (and another guy on YT who posted a clipping video). I couldn't find online some audio tests with the same track being clipped by the AD+ vs plugins so I was afraid the difference could have been very small. Well, now I'm here with my jaw dropped, reprinting some of my old stuff for fun through the AD+ and comparing it with all clippers I have. The AD+ retains A LOT of low end, punch and 3D compared to plugins and it's not a small difference when you A/B them!
Tank you so much David, now i understand why you prefer trasparent converters! Very🔝 sound from you! 👏🏻👍🏻
Yes AD+ clips very good.
Thanks Dave, awesome as always !!
I just bought the AD+ this week and it’s mostly because of this video. Before this I was eyeing the Burl B2 but you convinced me that you want an AD with at least the ability to be as clean and transparent as possible. Thank you so much for all of you’re great content.
I love well made clipping !
Thanks David!
🤘
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You made me a believer to purchase this unit
That new Waves Abby Road RS124 compressor is the real deal, Baby!!!!
An upgrade to a 2ch ADC is my next purchase. Currently using my Clarett+ for most I/O. Have been considering this option or an RMD MBC. So many good choices.
Wonderful idea! Thank you! Rme adi 2 pro and fusion work perfect together this way ))
Please watch this.. ua-cam.com/video/zPldscS0fEc/v-deo.html
@@mixbustv Thank you! I first saw that video, then I watched this one - a little experimentation and an acceptable level has been reached :) RME is able to withstand a little clipping and it's useful in some cases. RME adi2 pro
also great device ) And by the way, thank you very much for videos in your channel - it's one of most informative and inspiring channel! )))
🙏🤘
Is it possible to upload so I can try listen to it in A/B, blindly?
Loved it on the rock track, was also cool on the hip hop one. Reminds me of 2000s masters. I think it can kinda hurt and would be fatiguing to have transients like that on every track, but defo a cool trick if ya wanna smack. :)
Would this converter be better for tracking vocals compared to a Apollo x6. Or would the difference be too small to really tell?
Sounded really good on the hip hop track. The clipping seems to make most of the tracks very bright. Adds a bonus of clarity tho on darker tracks.
It actually doesn't, it simply doesn't do what any other clippers does which is muffling the highs a bit and narrowing the stereo image. See? People are so obsessed and used to color (not you, in general) but when they hear *real* transparency they like it better
I understand! It’s very unique to see your process for mastering. Thanks for sharing your info on it!
Sounds nice when you turn up the fusion. What make/model of convertor is this? What dbFS are you calibrated to?
Dangerous Music AD+ with input calibration set at -14dB
Hey thanks for the video on this! , is there a way you can do a video on some tracks that are clipped with the converter and then also show the ones that aren’t but level match them so we can hear a direct difference? Or do you have any files I can download for that?
what exactly does it do and do you put it at the end of the mastering chain
how do you have the dangehow do you have the dangerous ad+ connected? I have connected the dangerous to an Antelope Orion 32 by spdif and I can't hear the conversion.
I always clip dangerous ad plus pretty hard. It’s VERY CLEAN AND TRANSPARENT!!
What da converters do you use??
HEDD, MOTU
Can I do this with an uad apollo 16x? Are the converters good enough? I have the fusion
Amazing video, as always! What is your opinion on the loudness war and normalization of tracks? I heard that some platforms slap limiters on top of your track and that can cause variety of problems. Isn't it kind of safer to normalize the tracks during the mastering stage or there's some trick that I'm missing regarding the clipping of converters using analog gear as input?
I made several videos about that,even recently, it's BS, nobody cares (pros) about the supposedly normalization which can be turned off, it's different from platform to platform and again, nobody really cares when it comes down to real productions. Plus, a good sounding loud master will always sound louder and better than a quiet one (emphasis on GOOD)
@@mixbustv Right, I was having similar thoughts but never really had an opinion from a professional audio engineer on this. I've been trying to upload on UA-cam with different masters and thought that it's anyways better to have the master finalized louder than not. Thank you for the input.
Would be great to see a LUFS or RMS meter on the re-input to see the type of gain you were getting back.
People say never clip! So I clip every channel purposely (the right way) and ever since I’m obsessed with clipping 🤘🏻
I wouldn't clip every track if I was you..
@@mixbustv well maybe I exaggerated lol usually drums more than instruments and synths. I use compression for those. I like how clipped drums sound vs not clipped
you still using the dangerous or have you upgraded to something else?
Can i hook this converter up with an apollo twin mk2?
Wow love this. Know of any software clippers close to being as transparent as this hardware?
Nope
I'd love to compare TDR Limiter No6 clipper with clipping the Dbox converters. Maybe you could do a comparison there... plus it would be great to hear the delta/difference between the clipped and unclipped tracks to hear exactly what is added/taken away from each song with the hardware.
Hey Dave I also have Convert A/D+ an I noticed when I’m tracking vocals through concert vocals sound really good coming through hot or in some cases clipping. Do you track vocals through convert I know rule of thumb is try to keep vocals under -6dBs, but what’s your view point on vocal levels coming in through Dangerous Convert A/D?
I do record vocals thru it (the few times I record at all, which nowadays means basically only Bella's), but I would not clip while recording on the way in. While one of the reasons because I picked this one as my mastering "catch" converter is because it handles clipping better than any other, one thing is a full mix, another is a single track, you can mask distortion on a mix much easier than on a single track. You run the risk of not realizing you're adding audible distortion to it until it's too late. I wouldn't do it. There are many other ways to add saturation to a vocal, preferably doing in post, but even at the recording stage, clipping a converter, even this one, it's a the bottom of the list.
Thank you for the video. It would have been interesting to see the resulting waveform created by the Dangerous processor. If you were to be mastering for CD, do you know what the LUFS output level of the Dangerous would be relative to zero when using such a signal path and settings?
No you can't "know" LUSF depends on density, frequency content and BPM (among other things) not one song will come out measuring at the same level even given the same exact chain and the same exact db of clipping. The only thing you know is how you calibrate it, but that has nothing to do with LUFS
@@mixbustv Sorry for the confusion. Please let me rephrase the question: What was the resulting "Integrated" LUFS level during the loud sections (hook with vocals) when you were using the hardware to clip the signal? While we are here communicating: What is the THD specification of the Dangerous mastering convertor you are clipping? For future reference, it would have been informative if you had recorded the tracks you were hardware clip-mastering and zoomed in to show the shape of the drum hits. Thank you for your time and videos.
Hi David! Great video! Did you consider or compare the Lavry Gold ad122-96 mx or Burl B2 Bomber before landing on the Dangerous Music CONVERT-AD+? I'm wondering how they compare.
Yes and I'm not a fan of the bomber, I don't want color in my converters. Lavry is up there with this at that level we're close and we're talking details, I still preferred this
@@mixbustv That's excellent to hear as the price of the Dangerous CONVERT-AD+ is more in reach. Thanks so much!
What desk do you have? It is very nice.
Modson Studio Furniture
Do you suggest clipping the converter before coming back into printing the record or do you clip both going out and coming back in? I may not be making sense here. I am trying to simulate this with Acustica Ash. Currently I have Ash at the end of my mastering chain and I clip as the final stage before I go into limiting but I was wondering maybe clipping as the first insert and then maybe even clipping a little at the end as well would mimic clipping going out and coming in from a real A/D converter?
You don't clip the DA, ever
Hi David, a question that perhaps seems obvious but for me it isn't, is the Fusion connected before the Dangerous input or as an insert in the Dangerous therefore between the input and output of the Dangerous? Thanks for the Videos! Hug from Italy!
The AD+ is an AD, so like any AD it sits AFTER your analog chain because it's there to capture the final output.
I love the pop song from that girl, where can I find that?
soundcloud.com/user-604426241/in-the-dark
Hey David, how you dealing with Limiters after clipping the Converter?
Thx for the Great Video!
Same as with everything else before limiting. Nothing special to do, put a limiter after.
@@mixbustv Thanks for your answer. Greetings!
Are you using the Convert 2 with the AD+? Or are the Motu DAC’s good enough?
I have the Dangerous DA as well but the DA on the MOTU is amazing too
is the audio passing through Dangerouse and SSL only ????? or their other convertors that are connected to it
Dangerous only, the ssl is bypassed and used only for the output gain which is clean
Thanks for tutorial David. Can clarify plz?) you are sending signal from daw to hardware. On the way back to daw thru ad signal goes from green zone to yellow from -14db to -8(-6)? Then you use limiters to gain more lufs/rms? Thank you in advance
I'm not using limiters, I'm using the converters, driving the signal hot into it from the SSL (which yes, received it from the DAW) I'm not in the green, I'm 5 to 8 db over the zero, re-watch when I explain the metering
@@mixbustv will watch again)
I want to peel that piece of plastic off from the SSL Fusion's Meter :3
I have still got mine on and I mine is the 3rd one released to the public in the UK.. 🤣🤣
@@AOEarlobe Oh nice =] I just looked on mines, but I don't see a number on my unit ( just the QC pass sticker ) Maybe I'm not looking at the right spot.
But I peeled that plastic off of mines! I dunno I dislike plastic on my gear. I have a tendency to peel it off. It feels nice too when I do it haha. :D
@@OmoiSenpai are we sure this is a peelable plastic? seems veeery hard to remove :P
do you usually leave the Dangerous at the end of the chain or use more limiter plugins after it gets back to the DAW?
It depends, sometimes it's last sometimes is not
@@mixbustv ok! same here. Thanks for the response
Hello David, I have a question. I like very much your different videos about the Dangerous Convert AD+. I might go for this one once I have save the cash. But there another one which seems very interesting and seems to have also a ton of features, the Neve MBC reviewed by Mitch Gallagher from Sweetwater. The AD+ is a lot cheaper around 1200 euros. What do you think about the neve MBC ?
Thank you
If I have this one and not the other one.. AD+ won against everything else for me. Plus, you will find many people being underwhelmed by the MBC, which was my reaction too. It wouldn't even be a second choice
@@mixbustv Thanks a lot David for your response. And by the way, I just received the Symph EQ that I bought after seeing your review. You are the best !
frick, now that's some stuff. I'll be sticking in the box coz all i have is a cheapo interface lmao.
awesome review! would love to see a shootout between the dangerous AD+, Lavry Gold, HEDD Quantum, to see how it holds up to some of the other higher end converters. From what I hear, AD+ is the new king of converters when it comes to clipping
I have the HEDD, not the quantum, and tried the Lavry even recently before getting this, they're at the top of the game, they all sound amazing and it boils down to features really, I went for this because of that
@@mixbustv awesome. yeah, I've heard the HEDD and the bass sounds incredible on those things. So much detail in the bass that I have yet to hear elsewhere. The Lavry has that mid range sound that has become so familiar, but this AD+ has something really special going on in the highs and keeping the highs compressed, but still open with stereo width. thanks again for sharing
@@andrehines indeed, the AD+ to me felt really open and I hate to use that word because I don't want people to think converters add something that's not there (unless special processing is involved) but many can't understand and appreciate the beauty of transparent and open as in "this thing is not doing anything to the sound and it keeps it as is despite a somewhat detrimental processing is happening - conversion) and it felt the best of both in one. The highs are really something special on this
@@mixbustv well said. thx again
im sure this is a dumb question, but would something like the Dangerous AD + be one reason, why some tracks just seem way way louder? For example, some tracks that have the same LUFS, true peak, etc, still seem just a smidge louder compared to other tracks with the same numbers.
I'm sure the bulk of this is due to the difference in production, mix quality and other factors, but being someone who hasn't messed with analog Converters or signal processors, I've always wondered if maybe the hardware played a role in tracks that seem just the tiniest bit louder, but have the same numbers on all the meters.
It's the engineer with the experience and his hand picked piece of gear he spent years selecting, testing and knowing well. I'm sure you're familiar with my loudness in not in mastering video
Take into account that analog gear typically adds a natural saturation/distortion to your audio that makes it perceived to be louder and think about the tonal balance of the music where a brighter song would be perceived louder than a darker song at the same level.
Hey man, can you link the songs used in this video?
They are good actually 😳
All of them are songs I mixed/mastered, some are not released yet. Nova Melodious No Sunshine, Raygun Romance In the dark, Street Sects DD29, Levysill Gameplan, Colors Void don't remember the title, 6AM I think
@@mixbustv Thanks a ton!!
Which calibration should I choose if wanna use with a +24dbu analog chain?
With this? It depends, the higher the number the more headroom you have (before it clips) so for max headroom 18, when I want to clip it (and get a clean signal from the last unit that drives the signal in) 14
@@mixbustv ok so more 18 for mixprints and 14 for mastering analog.
@@SydneyValette correct
Hi dave, i know its not related to topic but as music producers should we learn about video editing if we want to share our work to the world?
Not necessarily, it depends on your platform, if you want to share your work you only need your work, you might want to learn that if you want to go on UA-cam which I wouldn't advise, it's super saturated and a waste of time for people starting it now
MixbusTv tnx for ur advice, no im goin to ne active on instagram,i don’t want to share things in english, so its not that much saturated. But i wanna know what software i have to learn, adobe premiere pro is enough?
Hi David! If already having a Lynx Hilo is it really worth investing in a Crane Song Hedd Quantum? Is there such an improvement over the Hilo that justifies the money? Thank you
You WILL hear the difference, that's a fact. Is the investment justified? It depends, as always, from the context. Is this your job or you really care about your music? Then yes.
@@mixbustv Thank you, David. The context is a bit dependent on priorities. Currently feeding my PMC 6-2 out the Lynx Hilo via speakers out and thought about getting a Grace Design M905 or Crane Song Avocet as I monitor 90 % of the time quite very low. Then the idea of Hedd came up… can’t have them both - can’t afford them both in one go. Which one would you recommend prioritizing? Thank you , David.
So is this considered digital clipping? if so can this be done on say, a 2 channel input interface, like the SSL2+? Obviously there a difference in quality compared to your unit, but...
No it's not digital clipping, is clipping an AD stage and it can only be done with a high quality converter
It begins where David says "last one". But where is the rest of the video? I'm a little confused about some of the context.
Watch the mastering clippers and limiters videos
@@mixbustv Thanks, Brother! My Best to you, Bella, Alex, and any other team members.
How does the apollo x6 or x8 converters hold up to the dangerous AD + ?
Look at the price of an Apollo x8, 3800, divide that for 8ch of conversion, 475 x channel, then take away from that the cost of the preamps, the CR section, hp amps, various other things you find on board which will probably be about half of that (at least, if not more), so let's say $220 x ch of conversion vs AD+ 3K for 2ch of conversion, let's say 10% to take off from the xformer and advanced metering etc, you have about $1300 x channel vs $220, both spend quite a bit for marketing but UA definitely more, they're also very popular so UA can probably offer more a good value for the money but still you're VERY far from a dedicated converter. Doesn't mean they're not good, but I don't consider them mastering grade. And speaking of real life test, I auditioned them against MOTU and found MOTU to be superior, handling hot signals better and just being better overall.
@@mixbustv I greatly appreciate your response. How ever I do love the x6 and the connectivity option but I also want and all in one with good mastering option with the same price range. Would you suggest keeping it or investing in a dedicated converter for mastering? I want something that can give similar price range but all in one with mastering grade I'm heading about thr antelope converters being slightly better not sure how true.
@@mixbustv should I get an additional converter to add to it that can give me better quality mastering? Or trade in for something similar with better conversion?
how can i clip that converter if I don't have any hardware to push the volume into the AD?
Eh.. you can't. Or better, I wouldn't. If you don't have anything to push the gain in your only option is to push it hot out the DAW, this means you're pushing your interface DA into clipping and that's not good even though DA stages have higher headroom than AD they are not meant to be pushed. So in practice, they have much less tolerance than AD stages even with higher headroom. Plus, at this point you're also running your DAW in the red.
@@mixbustv i do won the Wesaudio NGBUSCOMP, i don't know it will color the master if compression is not engaged.
Whats the knee on the distortion like? Pretty soft?.. It sounds so transparent
Kinda sounds like compression if you know that i mean. Must be soft clipping not hard... Thought?...
It doesn't sound soft at all, the best way to describe it is an oxymoron, it effects the audio like a hard clip, but it's super transparent and freaking open, especially the stereo field (which always suffers from clipping) NOTE for everyone reading: does NOT enhance the stereo field lol like some people say about their converters, it just doesn't touch it which is what we want
@@mixbustv interesting.. Could be a complicated mixture of unlinked stereo clippers with some sort of attack times.. Who knows...
Is there any detail on the clippers and maybe his schematic? Just for fun
Hi David. Dangerous AD Vs Bettermaker mastering limiter for Clipping?
I have the AD, I had the Bettermaker, that should tell you something. Brickwall limiters were born digital for a reason, there's no need for hardware for something that it's done perfectly with digital plugins for once.
@@mixbustv Thanks David, never really looked at it from that perspective. Do you recommend mix to Stereo through the AD + then master through it to clip as the first limiter before final second limiter.. Or use post a pre limiter? Looking to purchase soon as I have been looking at the DA+ for 6 months now.. BTW, great interview with BWB on the 5th, great view’s and perspectives. With that in mind what do you recommend as a monitor controller.. hopefully with a remote.. :).. Thanks 🙏
@@AOEarlobe my monitor controller is the Drawmer MC3.1, killer unit, BWB has one now because of me too, not just a controller, a real mix matrix. I mix into it yes, meaning I capture my mix print and if I'm also mastering for the client I print the master thru it. I don't necessarily clip it all the time, but if i do it's post analog mastering chain, before the various limiters.
@@mixbustv Thanks David, as usual you’re insight and knowledge is unprecedented! I will be in contact with my Guy at SX pro Uk to get some Demo’s units my way. 💪🏾🙏🏾
So go into the red with good hardware but not with plug ins?.
@You Tube Thanks will check it out.
Pretty much, they will not sound like this
Industrial track is a Hyper ?
Luvencie (Shaun from Street Sects with Seb from METH), I mixed the entire EP
would be nice to see the lufs
If you do an LUFS check, is the majority of the song over 0? My current converters I can get about -3.
LUFS over zero? Oh absolutely not. LUFS over zero is white noise. LUFS at -3 is a travesty.
@@mixbustv LUFS at -3 was just real loud. lol I just wondered how lufs plays into the dangerous AD+ meter.
From the SSL Fusion manual: "It is worth noting that the drive of the transformer circuit is self-contained, so there is no advantage in driving the Input stage of Fusion to achieve more level through the transformer."
Driving the input sounds different than driving the output, it's pretty obvious to anyone who ever touched the unit
@@mixbustv I have the unit. Do you think that SSL are leaving something out when they say that the input level doesn’t effect the transformer?
What about just driving into a clipping device that’s not the converter? I suppose the more brick wall nature of converters is what’s liked about this. But couldn’t you just wire some 15 volt diodes for 23dbu clamping, even passively, or use a tube device like the culture vulture or hg 2 and drive into these without clipping the converter to achieve a similar result?
That's the farthest thing I can think of from transparent 😄 but definitely a big no for tubes, the most important thing about tube gear is the circuit the tubes are in. You can drive any analog unit, but we do that for color, never heard something this transparent at the amount of db I can shave off with this (hence my choice)
I wanna also take the chance of advising people NOT to do this with middle of the road converters, and yes UAD and alike are middle of the road, the only one I heard to this level is the Lavry gold, so the price of this is actually pretty low. Too bad it seems to have a design issue
@@mixbustv Interesting. I'm trying to play around with higher voltage diodes. I'm obviously not charting any new territory, but technically the diodes shouldn't kick in until the voltage is reached, so it's not like a guitar distortion. 17V zenar diodes will only clip above 23.82dBu. Fun to play with anyways.
I use an apogee symphony, I'm curious where you stand on those?
@@ryanpwm This is a bit over my head man, I won't lie, I have a very basic and shallow knowledge of that side
@@mixbustv Oh yeah no worries. Not necessary knowledge for mastering hits lol
Hello. I can send you a demo to cut a clip with Dangerous music converter
That's a super good converter. The only problem with the Dangerous is the £ 3000 ;-)
eh, when you work with hardware, 3K ain't even that much
Lollllll
damn, wish I could afford that secret sauce!
Ask your mastering engineer to do it?
if you can't afford a mastering engineer, do your best in the box lol.
Actually to me do not sounds amazing as you say, it's the opposite. Awful distortion. But agree about transparency of this converter. It's the reason I don't listen any average CDs and streaming services apps because of production like this. It cause me ear fatigue even just few seconds.
There's no distortion. That's literally the entire point. But sure, whatever
That was really interesting - i have heard about clipping with outboard but had never seen it - looks simple - I will say this .... these loudness wars ... so bad ... the only result will be a few decades of unlistenable music - I dont know if it will ever return to a NORMAL listening level of 9/10rms - which is like the max of older records - this 3rms stuff is just stupid - its just so unpleasant - they do it in dance music , its so unpleasant. Its not the Mastering engineers fault - he's just doing whats asked - make it loud.
Bad loud is bad, home mastering loud is bad. Loud can be done correctly, loudness war only bothers those who don't know how to do loud AND good. Easy? Yes when you have 20 years of experience and spent them hand picking your chain and refine your skills
@@mixbustv I totally agree bad loud is bad and know that a mastering engineer is skilled to do it properly - i dunno - this whole thing with loudness is bad - you know i will predict something - an itunes type player that people will use at home and in bars for the soundsysystem - it will scan the tracks and adjust the volume for an equal sounding playlist ( not compress just alter the volume ) - this is the future !!! - and when that happens all this LOUD music thats been done this decade will sound awful - and you know what .... all it ever took was for someone to adjust the volume slider - but people these days have it set to one volume and hey ... thats why people do loudness tracks to make them stand out - now get itunes to compensate ( scan tracks ) for loudness and auto adjust it - say if you were working in a cafe .... and that is what needs to happen - take Luca Pretolesi. - sure hes skilled at it - but you know what it just sounds horrible - so punchy - but hey the guys is paid to make it loud - its still horrible sounding - i agree to disagree with you - and the sensible future is an overall player ( itunes or simillar which alters the volume to make tracks sound levelled when skipping from one to the other ) - and one day i think they will adjust itunes to do it - cause people are too lazy to reach forward and touch the volume slider - i rem when i had a big stereo - big amp - i would turn that volume dial all time - its just people dont do it no more
@@justinb9387 I am just wondering what for example Bob Katz would think about this discussion? Why not to learn to use volume knob if you want it louder? Of course it needs to be professionally mastered but why you need that extra clipping? DA -> analog is still nice but extra clipping with converters... Is that really important if you want to maintain pure audio quality? Especially during this online streaming era.
@@ari-pekkalaukkanen6848 bob was right - shitty hip hop music is what led the loudness crap - crap music that it really dont matter that its covered in clicks from limiting - and folk that are too lazy to turn the volume dial - give me non clicked / clipped music any day - non clipped music can be timeless and the other cannot
@@justinb9387 Streaming services (Spotify/UA-cam/iTunes) have been normalising the loudness of songs for years.