To the people who don't know me or are new here, I often use a sarcastic attitude when I do my tests. I must be a good actor because people legitimately think that I am a .45 ACP fanboy, a revolver fanboy or any number of other terms. This is simply how I approach testing, I go into 'VS' testing with a sarcastic love for one cartridge and 'hate' for another and it's all in good fun, I like all cartridges. I am not a true professional so every gun I use in my testing, I had to buy and I am far from wealthy, so obviously I don't hate whatever cartridge I test or I wouldn't even own a firearm chambered in it. I don't get emotional when I compare things, and you shouldn't either.
My wifey made a comment to me about the deadpan way you say things. She listens from another room and doesn't see the video. I told her that you are Thee info man. She said you are boring BUT watches your videos start to finish i she's in the room. Carry on Info Man and thanks for the test.
Hell yeah Sam great job. My two carry rounds 45acp and 44magnum. Sam I just recently retired al my 1911s and switched to revolvers I went with the Taurus raging Hunter in 44mag and I got the 5 star speedloader and be training mostly on reloading.
Dude, I love your vids! The recent addition of the "headers" or whatever you call them, with the info for that shot in the gel blocks is a great idea. I think you showed that there is a good load, finally, for modern .45ACP. Thanks for all your hard work on these videos, I know it takes hours and hours.
I am constantly impressed by how much bullets have improved. When I started carrying in the mid 1970’s, you couldn’t count on expansion in handgun bullets, so you fell back on the fact .45 has a lot more momentum and bore area. Now, great bullets are available in all the major calibers. Great test, Sam!
You have your testing protocol dialed in to perfection. I really like the new moment of impact stills. The big HST tarantulas are always impressive. That said, I wish they would produce a 185 or 200 grain 45acp version with a little more velocity.
Out of a 5" bbl I'd prefer the 45. Out of a 4" I'd prefer the 9mm. The standard pressure 9mm would likely get 12"+ penetration out of the 5". But I want the 45+P HST out of a Commander length. I'm fine the the standard pressure 45 HST out of a 5" based on other testing and my own. Great presentation as always! Thank you.
Hi gun Sam i love my 45 acp 1911. And i fired my friends 1911 9mm. And it was impressive on function and accuracy. Im a 1911 fan and always will be be it a 45 or 9mm. I tried glock and did not like it. My 45 fmj 230 doesnt need to anything but hit the target.😊 awsome video and good shooting😊
9mm performance was better here because it fully expanded. But that 75 caliber partial expansion is still jacking things up pretty seriously. Surprised that 45 didn't fully expand. A bit disappointed. But we use this in all of our 45s and this is the 9 in our 9s. Good stuff.
Awesome test, 9mm 124+p HST is my current carry round (all I have at the moment) and this makes me feel comfortable with my choice. I’d still rather have that .45, but the 9mm certainly seems like it’ll do the job. Appreciate your work, you’re a top guntuber for sure we need your videos
@vlogfriendsutopia consider most of the shootings where you see people starched on the floor in Brazil are hit with, at most, a 380 due to their laws. My point is most handgun ballistics are much the same. Placement > calibre
I had fired the HST +P 230 thru my M&P 45 and didn’t care for that load over standard pressure. It does pack a few extra oats. Both performed pretty darn good compared to 4O years ago.
As usual, great testing and info and thank you once again. I've been thinking about using those very same .45 acp 230 grain +p HST rounds, but also worried about consistent functioning. I asked you a couple vids back about heavier springs with heavy +P loads. My .45 is a CZ 97 (love that big hunk of steel. So comfortable to shoot and so accurate). It functions perfectly with standard pressure or slightly hot loads. When I get into true +p territory, I have experienced some feed issues here and there; maybe one every three or four mags, which is one too many in my view. Has happened with 220 grain critical duty +p and Buffalo Bore +p 200 grainers (IMO, best defense load available in 45 acp) and some 230 grain +p that I can't recall the brand. Seems the slide velocity becomes high enough that sometimes it doesn't adequately pick up the next round. Been meaning to find a heavier spring and try it out.
I think the .45 ACP is infinitely better served with lighter bullets if hollow points are the order of the day. That said, the HST did a good job in both rounds and I would expect no less from a premium expanding bullet. Thanks for sharing! 🥶👍🙏
I'd carry either. Has an HST ever failed to perform? Regardless of caliber, the HST seems to be the go-to for defensive ammo. BTW, thanks Sam. You have nothing to apologize for. The haters are gonna hate. You run a great channel.
Did you read my mind? I just got my S&W 457 back from brother and I am: #1 considering if I should carry it over my Glock 23 or 48 and #2 What ammo to use in it. I love the new graphics BTW
Great test, thank you.After 45 years of reloading and shooting I just ordered my first 45 acp handgun intending it for my nightstand gun. My EDC is a Kahr CW9 loaded with the 124 +P HST. Gathering all the info and Gel test videos online for the 45 acp, I purchased the Speer Gold Dot 230 grain SB ammo for for the 45 acp, but i also purchased the 230 gr HST + P to see which one shoots best for me. I'm adding your great info to my knowledge base.
I just picked up a couple 50rd boxes of the 200gr +P Gold Dots from SGammo for $45 / box. Only ran 1 mag thru the G36 but back to back with some 230gr HST non +p the recoil was same or slightly less than the HST (FYI I've tried and didn't like the recoil of the 230gr +P HSTs) there's not tons of gel tests for the 200gr +p GD on YT. Tools & Targets hasn't tested that round yet either.
If you don’t hit every target every time, someone is gonna bitch about. You may not be a competition shooter but you’re better than average by far. Great ammo test. Both options are top tier in each caliber.
I have commented on some of your earlier videos, that the Federal 45ACP 230gr HST and HST +P bullets are what we carry. Our test results are very similar to what you demonstrated with .78" being the smallest of expansion, and with approximately 12-14 inches of penetration. Note: Clear ballistics does NOT mimic the FBI ballistic gel, bullets have a tendency to penetrate further than the gelatin that is used by the FBI. Again, bullet larger expansion equals more tissue damage and potential blood loss. Train with the 45ACP and recoil control is manageable.
Don’t let the trolls bother you you are more than a regular guy when it comes to shooting I bet most regular guys couldn’t hit a target at 25 yards let alone 75
That's my choice of load for my truck gun 5" .40 M&P. I went through the best brands and weights and found that the 165 gr .40 S&W HST does everything I want a good ammo choice to do.
9mm "I beat the 45 ACP gell only!" 45 ACP "hold my beer and watch this" lol - they both really performed great - I love HST - that's what I carry (40 S&W/G23).
I was surprised to see the .45 ACP +p HST fail, especially out of a long barrel. I'd like to see Federal offer an HST .45acp +P with a 185 grain bullet. Great video as always. You may not be a professional but you're a pretty good shot!
@logangodofcandy failure as in the HST bullet design failed to expand properly. It's the first time I've seen an HST fail to expand properly. There's no way to quantify its performance in an actual shooting.
9mm keeping up. I prefer 45 acp. I like how the noise does not make your ears ring as much. 185 grain seems good in a 45. I have shot 9mm that kicks out of a barrette 92. No, fuud about it. WW2 tech just works. Less jams with a regular chamber. Fatter round is gonna do better with less effort.
The long slide Glocks are amazing imo. Not an edc offering for most, but for plinking, range, competition, or home protection the G40/G41 are tough to beat...although the same calibers from S&W are also very nice in long barreled offerings.
I really think they are fine tuned for accuracy or something like that. Like mine with 230 gr ball ammo runs 100% and is really accurate, but it's had more problems with +P defensive ammo than any other pistol I have owned.
45 is better. The problem or mistake people make is comparing old slow 230 grain 45acp against modern high velocity 9mm. Velocity is the key. Put in a modern light weight 135-160 grain running around 1400fps in a 45 and theirs no comparison. A Extreme Defender or EHP have significantly lower felt recoil too. There’s plenty of solid copper options for 45 that change the game.
Even at that, velocity alone tells little and can easily become over emphasized as a factor. This test Gun Sam did illustrated that. The 45 load was subsonic, and the 9×19 is supersonic. Yet, rven though the 45 was two hundred and fifty ft./s. lower velocity, it penetrated signifcantly deeper in both shots, whilst also being considerably larger in diameter. By any yardstick, that means the round is more terminally effective on flesh. So bullet weight, bullet profile and bore size can all prove more signifcant than having higher velocity, within context. That's one of the reasons things such as Taylor Knockout have real utility. By energy foot-pounds, the 9×19 should have been essentially identical to the 45 ACP in this test, with ~ 437 ft./lbs. compared to the 45's ~ 470 ft./lbs. In actual result, the 45 penetrated 30-35% deeper whilst pushing an opened HP that was ~ 20% larger. That's much more stopping power, and something that 30 to 40 extra ft./lbs. wouldn't be a predicator of. On the other hand, by Taylor Knockout the 9×19 sits at about 8, whereas the 45 ACP load has a TKO of just over 14. That meshes much more with observed terminal effect than the foot-poundage does.
@@LibertysetsquareJack I agree 100% about the "higher damage" of the 45 ACP wound, but it comes at a price ofc, less capacity, you have to practice way more often than u usually would have to compared to 9mm, 9mm its cheaper to practice with and since it's also easier to shoot because of less recoil it becomes easier to hit your target with subsequential shots, at the end of the day I think it's about shot placement, there's also a good video from Garand Thumb where you can see that the wound from the 9x19 compared to the 45 ACP it's identical, you can't really tell the difference...
@Gieszkanne Problem too with seating light bullets in 45 ACP, is the sectional density starts dropping low. So yes, if someone is going with 130-ish through 170 or so grains bullet weight, they'd probably do better to go with a caliber such as 40 S&W, or indeed, 9×19 Parabellum...or one could just be superior overall and go 357 Mag. ;) Too light of bullets in chamberings such as 45 ACP or 44 Special is basically trying to turn those cartridges into something they were never designed to be.
The 45 fmj in real life is usually the same size as a well expanded 9mm give or take. Don’t bet your life on gel test on expansion and wound track in gel. 45 will hit your body so hard compared to a 9mm. Both are great rounds. But in real life victims most of these rounds don’t look like this after hitting bones etc. gel test are an expectation of the performance. I think people forget this.
Or, it's like has the same exact avg performances tested over and over again in real OIS....wow they never thought to compare before in all these years.......Same Avg penetration and avg expansion just in the initial test of 40ish bad guys shot. I wonder what hit so hard means in a scientific value can you explain how something with the same energy hits with more energy...hmmm
@@DanTheWolfman I agree with most of what you wrote, but energy doesn’t govern collisions. Momentum does. If you’ve ever seen a free body diagram, it shows how forces interact. A bullet of mass M will slow down as it hits a target. The force acting on this bullet equals M x the acceleration at any given moment. The total force is the sum of each moment of force, which is a good measure of how much damage can be done. So how do you calculate the total amount of force acting on the bullet? It’s the total amount of acceleration multiplied by the mass. If the bullet stops inside the target, the sum of all moments of acceleration is equal to the impact velocity. The product of the impact velocity and mass of the bullet is M*V which is the definition of momentum.
I’d pick whichever I could shoot better. I like 45 but would be fine with carrying the 9. Now if I’m needing a “woods” load, I’d take the 45 with the 22lb spring and feed it 250 grn BB loads or carry my hand loads that that make over 800 fpe. You know a test that would end the 9 vs 45 test is run a max effort 9 vs 45 test. I’ve got hand loads for 9 that are major loads with a 130 grn solid making 650 fpe. But then I have 45 loads making 900 fpe using power pistol and 185 grn hp. In the end it’s what you have, your level of expertise/experience. Like I said, the 9 did fine & I like the idea of quick follow up and large capacity. If I’ve got jaws and claws I’ll want heavier projectiles and Rowland level power. Final note: I’ve got a colt 70 series that I setup like a Rowland. It makes Rowland level power using standard 45 brass. I’m running a 22 or 24# spring. I don’t remember which. The pistol has been living in this configuration for about 10 yrs now. So 261 grn cast at 1250 fps & 185’s at over 1500 fps. Now I don’t run that level of load all the time. No point in putting excessive wear on equipment if not needed. A 185 at 1300 fps is easy to shoot with a comped barrel and has enough sting to make it a one and done proposition in most cases I’d think for self defense. Claims are documented on my channel if anyone wants to go into the rabbit hole of what is possible. Another fine video sir. Thank you for your testing.
Thank you. I like both but i'm super picky about 9mm. I keep my 5" here loaded with 115 gr +P+ Federal 9BPLE as it's track record is legit. Put a standard pressure 9mm load in a 4" pistol, and I can't help but think about all the Glock 17/19 police activity channel videos where it seemed like the 9mm was about as effective as a bb gun.
I think things would have been more in the .45 ACP's favor had there been a 185 Gr. or even a 200 gr. bullet available in the HST for it, I've always felt that the 230 gr bullets were just too heavy for a .45 ACP but the 185's give you more powder capacity and that combined with the lighter weight and velocity achieved from a +p load it can not even be compared to any 9mm loading. You can get .45 ACP cartridges with 185 gr. bullets that give you over 550 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy with great expansion and that is what we should compare to the 9mm not the slowest and heavies bullet made for it. (Edit, I made this comment just before the end of the video where he says basically the same thing)
The muzzle energy doesn't mean much of anything. The heavier, higher sectional density bullet will penetrate more and also has the greater inertia. Minimum or substandard penetration is worse than excessive penetration. The issue here occurs with rounds noses or bullets that don't expand at all
@@logangodofcandyexactly. Everyone is obsessed with energy foot lbs which favors velocity. No one uses Taylor Ko which factors weight, diameter and sec density! A 22-250 has more “energy foot lbs” than a 535 gr 45-70 at 1250 fps. Which one do you think will hit a buffalo harder?
@@66smithra This is true when you need a lot of penetration against an animal with thick skin, a lot of muscle mass and dense bones to get through but shooting a 1,000 pound bison and stopping a human or small animal threat such as a dog or mountain lion are two different things.
I hear his name mentioned a lot, and I don't watch myself because when I do this stuff, I don't want to know beforehand how a round performs if he happened to test it first. I like to watch stuff that I don't or can't do, like full auto or other various gun content. I'd get bored watching what I already do lol
Love the new "Moment of Impact" overlay! I've seen you cover a wideee variety of calibers over the years, but curious if you have ever tested (or planned on) anything in the 5.7 variety?
Some in the comments now suggest to take lighter bullets for 45 ACP with faster velocity. But from Lucky Gunners data where he tested 35 different rounds in 45 ACP the heavy 230gr open up the most. The biggest was Winchester Ranger T Series wit 1 inch! Bullet design is more important than velocity. Most 9mm wouldnt open up at 900fps because they are not designed for that. And with to much velocity they would open up to much or would fall apart with little penetration. This happens with some 44 Mag or 357 Mag when you shoot it into gel form lever actions.
Expansion is dependent on not clogging and having enough velocity that the fluid pressure at the nose causes expansion. This is usually based on the metal used and the size of the hollow point cavity. Basically, you can design the bullet via shape, construction, and metallurgy to behave any way you want. These companies typically use the same construction and metallurgy on all of their calibers and bullet weights. An HST is the same bullet, no matter the gun you put it in. It would be different if they altered metal hardness and load pressures specifically for each one for specific barrel lengths. It would also cost lots of R&D
I recently saw a shooting where a robber looked like he absorbed 3-5 center mass shots from most likely a full size 9mm, and all he did was quickly crawl out of harms way like he just got punched in the stomach! Videos like that have me second guess the 9mm that so many tactical instructors rave about..
He may have had armor on, i.e. ballistic vest. Taking three or more rounds to the chest and walking around like nothing happened is definitely not typical.
If you haven't read about the Timothy Gramins shootout, you should check it out. That cop went from carrying .45 ACP to 9mm, and humping as much ammo as he can stand to. Pistol calibers are just not as effective as some people might think.
Federal's HST line is phenomenal, to say the least. As to 9mm HST beating 45 ACP HST loads, not really, at least from 5 inch barrel pistols. With shorter barrels, especially when you get to the 3 to 4 inch range, I do think the 9mm's higher velocity is more likely to generate reliable expansion than the slower 45 ACP. Of course, a 9mm may expand to .45, but a .45 will not shrink to 9mm diameter. Also, one can kill a man with 9mm, but the 45 ACP also kills his soul, so there's that. 😁 Personally, I rely upon 9mm as more rounds fit into a given magazine space, the recoil is fairly gentle, and 9mm is a lot less expensive than 45 ACP.
My P14 and Glock34 have the same basic size and capacity. I can't shoot 45 Super out of the P14, the +P+ I carry in the 34. That said, I never felt under gunned even when my carry was USP 45 Compact with 8rnd magazines. People never needed high cap until 9 became the norm.
If it’s hard to tell which would be better, they are pretty similar terminally. Therefore other factors bear more weight such as recoil, capacity, cost, etc.
The 45 penetrates much more reliably and is far more likely to stop a threat with fewer shots. The bullet that did the most damage to the gel was the 45 that didn't expand as much as it is supposed to. It was larger than 50 cal at that point and travelled nearly 18 inches.
Gel block aside…Man That 230gr banging the steel compared to the 124 is QUITE a difference. Can’t help but to imagine the comparison in an actual defense scenario. I carry both, and mostly HST’s actually, but I feel a little more at ease carrying my .45 after this one
I EDC a Glock 21 SF with a TTI+4 mag extension, concealed, everyday. I have it loaded with 230 +p HST. The key is to be a man, and train with your 45, if you want to be able to shoot it accurately as well as quickly.
I am a fan of the 45 ACP. I would still be carrying it if weight didn't matter to me. I agree that velocity is important for HP expansion. Also, as I've said before, humans don't react well to bullets.
It's a shame that Federal doesn't offer 230gr +p+ as a factory load. About half the tests I've seen turn out just like yours, and the other half they look more like the 9mm did through the cloth/MDF. It seems like it's right on the edge of reliable expansion velocity. Have you tested the Gold Dot .45 +p? If I'm not mistaken it's 200gr; that slightly lower weight might be the ticket. Thanks for the videos, Sam!
The 45 performed well in both cases. The 9mm was mediocre in both cases. I have no idea why people want the least effective penetration and most expansion
@logangodofcandy I'm not saying the HST in .45 wouldn't be effective; there are a lot of German and Japanese soldiers that got put in the ground with .45 ball that doesn't expand at all. The point is that you are paying a premium price for HST bullets (in any caliber) because they supposedly penetrate ~and~ expand fully. Shot-for-shot, the poorly expanded .45 would almost certainly do more damage than the sufficiently expanded 9mm, but at the end of the day, the 9mm in this test does what Federal markets it as doing. The .45 in this test does not.
@@GunSam Seems there's a couple different product codes, found other 200gr on the market with the same velocity ratings and test barrel, but it's called "LE" on the box, versus this "G2" on Speer's site. Probably exactly the same product, maybe the other was discontinued.
I think the FBI tests are done with Organic gel and I always see less overall penetration with the same ammunition when tested through organic gel than synthetic and they all usually fall between the 12 and 18 in. Ballistically the 45 is obviously the winner but since the 9mm HST creates plenty big enough permanent wound cavity and penetration, imo it is more sensible to go with the 9mm hst since you can expect it to be smoother and higher capacity for the same size handgun.
Exactly what I was predicting when I first heard about the FBI wanting to do these tests. Shot for shot and much equal ammo to equal ammo, even though the velocity of this 45 is not reflecting plus P load at 5.3 in of barrel length. I shoot plus piano in my 45 of either 180 grain or usually 200 grain plus P that are usually running at around 1200 or better. But equal projectiles you will always get 25 to 30% greater permanent wound cavity with a 40 or 45 or a high-speed 357 Sig 9/23 38 Super 4357 Magnum over the best 9mm. Only the extremely hot 9 mm plus b plus and I mean it has to be very hot like almost submachine gun ammo range like 39,500 lb of pressure and up on a 125 grain hollow point to come close to that velocity out of this one 1300 ft per second that's a decent 9mm load. I would carry that in the only 9 mm I own which is a P35 Argentine Browning which is the most accurate 9 mm I have ever witnessed in my life my dad bought it in 1977 or 78. And it has been an absolute tack driver even with ball ammo. When I finally went from a 357 and went to a semi-auto for my standard carry I went to 40 smith. And I will still carry a 40 Smith because I am standing out there alone trying to defend myself and I'll give up two shots of 9 mm all day long to hit somebody with a bullet that hits at least 70% to 85% harder with each shot than a 9mm. And do 30% better permanent wound cavity you do not get hydrostatic shock from the speeds of a pistol round you can only depend on permanent wound cavity. The biggest lie the FBI ever said is they couldn't tell the difference between the wound cavity of a 9 mm and the ones of 40 Smith and 45. And I've seen the photos of their test. And you can clearly see the difference. It is palpable they are lying to you the only thing they're telling you the truth in is that the reason they went to 9 mm is because one they have a bunch of wimps who don't know how to shoot good defensive calibers. And their biggest reason, it's cheaper
Have you ever considered trying to compare a Glock 37 with a Glock 21 using Speer 200 grain Gold Dot. A .45 G.A.P. Vs .45 A.C.P. Test. I know Winchester made a 230 grain load in the G.A.P. that was a really good load for self defense.
Nope, and never will. I am not a professional and I have to purchase and register every gun I own, so I only buy guns that will pay for themselves in tests, IF that gun is in a caliber with tons of ammo choices that will get me a ton of testing over the years. The only exception is if it's a cheap gun. There's no way I would buy a Glock 37 to test the 4 or 5 various defensive loads that exist.
If a common pistol caliber bullet doesn’t penetrate the heart, spine or brain then I’m guessing the person who got shot isn’t going to suddenly die, they are going to take some time and bleed until they fall unconscious. Emergency room and postmortem reports I think would be the best data. Plenty of people have been shot in lots of different parts of the body with lots of different pistol calibers. And I’m not sure how you compare your shot penetration distances with the FBI testing when you’re not fallowing the FBI protocols. Are your shots farther or shorter than they would be if you were shooting the FBI test?
Excellent video Gun Sam. I think you can’t go wrong with HST’s in any caliber. I use HST in all main calibers except for 357 Sig. In 357 Sig, I choose Underwood Ammo to unleash the real power of 357 Sig.
45 is still better. I prefer the 185 or 200 weight. Would make the 9 look even worse than the 230 did. My 9mm is actually 357sig. All are good rounds, 9 and 357 penetrate barriers better. Oh and ignore the trolls, I wouldn't even read the comments if I were you.
230gr 45 is nearly equivalent sectional density to 147gr 9mm. In this test, 200gr would be equivalent to the 124gr 9mm. Yet it's pretty hard to find 200gr loads, especially such like HST or Gold Dot.
@@exothermal.sprocket From Lucky Gunners Data there are 200gr Gold Dot and they did well in his gel test. But the Sig V crown in 200gr didnt even open up in bare gel.
Everyone seems obsessed with energy foot lbs. no one uses Taylor Ko factor. Bullet weight, sectional density, and frontal diameter definitely matter! People are so obsessed with velocity that they want to use 9mm weight bullets in the 45! They are missing the point. A 22-250 with a 55 gr bullet at 3700 fps has more “energy” than a 535 gr 45-70 moving at 1250 fps. But which one do you think hits a buffalo harder? Weight, diameter and sec density matter!
Just wish there were more .45 options with >10 rd mags that loaded weighed no more than 35 ounces so .40 Enters the Chat. WINTER COLD NOW CARRYING P2000 .40 180 GR HSTs 12+1 & 5 rds Pitbull .40 165 gr Punch as my Backup/Weakside. 2 Thugs were hanging in parking lot as I was about to walk in so stayed a bit made sure family got in safe and watched them enough to try and give them the point not to break into cars and warned manager may want to call ask for a po po roll bye. I've tested 9 vs .40 my 1st Modern Meat Target and .38+ vs .40 Punch on snubs upcoming water jugs
Sam it’s ok to say full power 45 Auto +P was/is more powerful than full power 9mm +p+p+ etc. More mass, more mass through a barrier, more diameter just MORE. The 9mm guys will get over it, they’re young and have plenty of time to except this.
The hottest 9mm +P+ JHP I have ever fired was in the vicinity of 550 ft lbs energy, Buffalo Bore. The issue is to get to those numbers you have to use a 115 gr which destroys any penetration potential. I have tested several .45 ACP +P loads that are in that same energy range and a few around 600 ft lbs energy. The difference is that at these energy numbers, the .45 ACP +P penetrated normally.
Regards consistency, it's very hard to assess that just with one shot of each through the MDF. To truly measure consistency you would need a string of shots for each caliber, with a fresh medium for each one.
People who specialize in statistical analysis would agree with your point, but that does not invalidate the data set presented nor detract from it's usefulness in a general sense. Data sets that are considered large enough to do meaningful analysis are quite large, so large that most "guntubers" don't have the resources to compile them. That subject is out of my lane otherwise and I will leave that debate for those that have skin in that game.
@hillbillyscholar8126 Yep, and I'm not suggesting Gun Sam do a full blown labortary-style setup either. I think Paul Harrel had a great comprise though: three or five shot string of each cartridge.
The laws of physics will not be denied. If big bullets were the answer, then the US Army would use .45 for rifles, but they don't. FPS is more important than bullet diameter. A .30-06 (7.6mm) going 2500 to 2900 feet per second has less diameter than 9mm, but can leave a 3" exit hole in an enemy soldier, without being a hollow point! To say nothing of 5.56. The way these cases are loaded seems to make a big difference, and makes 9mm highly competitive with .45 ACP. Especially with solid copper, Underwood or G9 Defense.
@@GunSam 1/3 of JHPs fail to expand on impact. Solid copper does not have that issue. Also, exit wounds are 3 times larger and PWCs are astonishing in tested animal tissue as opposed to the best JHPs, e.g. Fed HST. I know what you are saying though. The FBI will not even test solid copper because it does not expand.
That 45 is pretty failure. Even with boost of longer barrel there is no complete expansion once it hits fabrique (not to mention that denim is even harder expansion stopper than tshirt). As we know, HST is the best thing you can buy and still gets medicore results in 45. Now imagine something more practical for carry - like Shield 45...
Is everyone stuck on "penetration" power or what. The .45 ACP was designed to be a big heavy slug traveling slow in terms of bullet fps. It penetrates and usually instantly expands the hollow point,therefore dumping its mass energy into its target by its spreaded slug creating wound cavity. It was a preferred choice sidearm especially in trench and bunker warfare because there was less chance of over penetration and striking an unintentional target or a fell9w soldier in a crossfire. Im not saying you're trying to disprove the .45 but do note, clothing, actual dense tissue and bone will spread that hollow point faster than gel since ballistic gell is consistent in density whereas the body isnt. I have both calibers and understanding their pros and cons determining which I use. If i was forced to defend myself against a shooter in a car or hiding behind a wall, 9mm, an open target like an armed robber whos out in the open then .45. Like the 10 mm, its essentially a 40 caliber round with 9mm power pushing a big slug faster, better for bigger targets. Again I'm not slamming your video, I just feel people are obsessed with power over effectiveness. Less damage if it travels straight through, massive internal injury if it parks in an abdomen or lung
I don’t care what you say, how many gel tests and such, but having attended several autopsies resulting from .45 caliber interventions, and having at the same time spoken to people recently shot by 9mm, there can be no real comparison. After 33 years of police work, I’ve never spoken to anyone shot by a .45 in the chest; they all expired
To the people who don't know me or are new here, I often use a sarcastic attitude when I do my tests. I must be a good actor because people legitimately think that I am a .45 ACP fanboy, a revolver fanboy or any number of other terms. This is simply how I approach testing, I go into 'VS' testing with a sarcastic love for one cartridge and 'hate' for another and it's all in good fun, I like all cartridges.
I am not a true professional so every gun I use in my testing, I had to buy and I am far from wealthy, so obviously I don't hate whatever cartridge I test or I wouldn't even own a firearm chambered in it. I don't get emotional when I compare things, and you shouldn't either.
Not to mention it, but I do get more excited with .357/.44 magnum tests
😂 Well said...
My wifey made a comment to me about the deadpan way you say things. She listens from another room and doesn't see the video. I told her that you are Thee info man. She said you are boring BUT watches your videos start to finish i she's in the room.
Carry on Info Man and thanks for the test.
You do a fine job. I miss your water jug testing, but the gel is a lot dryer for sure. Keep up the good work, thank you.
Hell yeah Sam great job. My two carry rounds 45acp and 44magnum. Sam I just recently retired al my 1911s and switched to revolvers I went with the Taurus raging Hunter in 44mag and I got the 5 star speedloader and be training mostly on reloading.
Dude, I love your vids! The recent addition of the "headers" or whatever you call them, with the info for that shot in the gel blocks is a great idea. I think you showed that there is a good load, finally, for modern .45ACP. Thanks for all your hard work on these videos, I know it takes hours and hours.
Thank you
@@GunSam I'll second what @mcburcke said. The new graphics look great!
I am constantly impressed by how much bullets have improved. When I started carrying in the mid 1970’s, you couldn’t count on expansion in handgun bullets, so you fell back on the fact .45 has a lot more momentum and bore area. Now, great bullets are available in all the major calibers. Great test, Sam!
You have your testing protocol dialed in to perfection. I really like the new moment of impact stills. The big HST tarantulas are always impressive. That said, I wish they would produce a 185 or 200 grain 45acp version with a little more velocity.
The pistol and ammo overlay on top is a great addition.
Thanks
I liked that too 👍
I think you're a good shot man. ballistic testing is harder than it appears. I've got a lot of useful data here, good stuff.
Out of a 5" bbl I'd prefer the 45. Out of a 4" I'd prefer the 9mm. The standard pressure 9mm would likely get 12"+ penetration out of the 5". But I want the 45+P HST out of a Commander length. I'm fine the the standard pressure 45 HST out of a 5" based on other testing and my own. Great presentation as always! Thank you.
great video Sam
I like what you did adding in edits over the gel in this video
I love the way you changed up your edits showing before and after pictures while you talk. Way to up your ammo test videos! Keep up the good work!
More great content! So useful thanks Sam
Nice review as always. Happy New Year.
I am a fan of both. Great testing Gun Sam
GS. Good video. Always a good and interesting comparison. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you, take care.
Awesome test. Love a big ole ball.
Great video I carry HST in all calibers except .380.
Your production quality is getting better and better.
Hi gun Sam i love my 45 acp 1911. And i fired my friends 1911 9mm. And it was impressive on function and accuracy. Im a 1911 fan and always will be be it a 45 or 9mm. I tried glock and did not like it. My 45 fmj 230 doesnt need to anything but hit the target.😊 awsome video and good shooting😊
9mm performance was better here because it fully expanded. But that 75 caliber partial expansion is still jacking things up pretty seriously.
Surprised that 45 didn't fully expand. A bit disappointed. But we use this in all of our 45s and this is the 9 in our 9s. Good stuff.
Awesome test, 9mm 124+p HST is my current carry round (all I have at the moment) and this makes me feel comfortable with my choice. I’d still rather have that .45, but the 9mm certainly seems like it’ll do the job. Appreciate your work, you’re a top guntuber for sure we need your videos
If I could only pick one between the two, it would be the 45 ACP.
P.S.; the 45 ACP absolutely smashed the 9mm.
They both poke holes in people like handguns always do. I'd take less recoil and more capacity, but it doesn't matter. Shot placement is king.
@dandylion1987 Do you carry a compact or full sized 380 or 32?
😂
@vlogfriendsutopia consider most of the shootings where you see people starched on the floor in Brazil are hit with, at most, a 380 due to their laws.
My point is most handgun ballistics are much the same. Placement > calibre
How?
I had fired the HST +P 230 thru my M&P 45 and didn’t care for that load over standard pressure. It does pack a few extra oats. Both performed pretty darn good compared to 4O years ago.
I run Federal Premium HST 45acp 230 gr. (non +P) through my 3.5” Para and the expansion and penetration are excellent for a short barrel.
As usual, great testing and info and thank you once again.
I've been thinking about using those very same .45 acp 230 grain +p HST rounds, but also worried about consistent functioning. I asked you a couple vids back about heavier springs with heavy +P loads. My .45 is a CZ 97 (love that big hunk of steel. So comfortable to shoot and so accurate). It functions perfectly with standard pressure or slightly hot loads. When I get into true +p territory, I have experienced some feed issues here and there; maybe one every three or four mags, which is one too many in my view. Has happened with 220 grain critical duty +p and Buffalo Bore +p 200 grainers (IMO, best defense load available in 45 acp) and some 230 grain +p that I can't recall the brand. Seems the slide velocity becomes high enough that sometimes it doesn't adequately pick up the next round. Been meaning to find a heavier spring and try it out.
I think the .45 ACP is infinitely better served with lighter bullets if hollow points are the order of the day. That said, the HST did a good job in both rounds and I would expect no less from a premium expanding bullet. Thanks for sharing! 🥶👍🙏
Rem Golden Saber comes in 185+p.
@@exothermal.sprocket The new Golden Saber is an excellent performer.
@@hillbillyscholar8126 Remington has improved their stuff across the board, even the cheap thunderbolt 22.
I'd like to see him test the Gold Dot 200gr +P
@@EricSBleicher I second that.
I'd carry either. Has an HST ever failed to perform? Regardless of caliber, the HST seems to be the go-to for defensive ammo. BTW, thanks Sam. You have nothing to apologize for. The haters are gonna hate. You run a great channel.
Thanks, a .45ACP 1911 is my primary carry gun, with a 9mm my secondary choice for carry.
Did you read my mind? I just got my S&W 457 back from brother and I am: #1 considering if I should carry it over my Glock 23 or 48 and #2 What ammo to use in it.
I love the new graphics BTW
Great test, thank you.After 45 years of reloading and shooting I just ordered my first 45 acp handgun intending it for my nightstand gun. My EDC is a Kahr CW9 loaded with the 124 +P HST. Gathering all the info and Gel test videos online for the 45 acp, I purchased the Speer Gold Dot 230 grain SB ammo for for the 45 acp, but i also purchased the 230 gr HST + P to see which one shoots best for me. I'm adding your great info to my knowledge base.
Good test. I’d really like to see you test the .45 ACP Speer G2 Carry Gun 200 grain +p.
I been meaning to test that stuff for years, I should get on it.
I just picked up a couple 50rd boxes of the 200gr +P Gold Dots from SGammo for $45 / box. Only ran 1 mag thru the G36 but back to back with some 230gr HST non +p the recoil was same or slightly less than the HST (FYI I've tried and didn't like the recoil of the 230gr +P HSTs) there's not tons of gel tests for the 200gr +p GD on YT. Tools & Targets hasn't tested that round yet either.
I like how the gun and ammo are on the slo-mo
If you don’t hit every target every time, someone is gonna bitch about. You may not be a competition shooter but you’re better than average by far. Great ammo test. Both options are top tier in each caliber.
I have commented on some of your earlier videos, that the Federal 45ACP 230gr HST and HST +P bullets are what we carry.
Our test results are very similar to what you demonstrated with .78" being the smallest of expansion, and with approximately 12-14 inches of penetration.
Note: Clear ballistics does NOT mimic the FBI ballistic gel, bullets have a tendency to penetrate further than the gelatin that is used by the FBI.
Again, bullet larger expansion equals more tissue damage and potential blood loss.
Train with the 45ACP and recoil control is manageable.
Don’t let the trolls bother you you are more than a regular guy when it comes to shooting I bet most regular guys couldn’t hit a target at 25 yards let alone 75
Another great test. You couldn't go wrong with either load. 40 S&W 165 HST is another equal load.
That's my choice of load for my truck gun 5" .40 M&P. I went through the best brands and weights and found that the 165 gr .40 S&W HST does everything I want a good ammo choice to do.
Another great test.
9mm "I beat the 45 ACP gell only!" 45 ACP "hold my beer and watch this" lol - they both really performed great - I love HST - that's what I carry (40 S&W/G23).
My main truck gun, 5" M&P in .40 with 165 gr HST
@@GunSam Don't mess with GunSam.
I was surprised to see the .45 ACP +p HST fail, especially out of a long barrel. I'd like to see Federal offer an HST .45acp +P with a 185 grain bullet.
Great video as always. You may not be a professional but you're a pretty good shot!
Fail? I would call that a resounding success. That "bad" shot was a man stopped for sure
@logangodofcandy failure as in the HST bullet design failed to expand properly. It's the first time I've seen an HST fail to expand properly. There's no way to quantify its performance in an actual shooting.
Love the new graphics above the gel man! Excellent. 45 wins that one, but I can't carry that big hog, so 9MM for me.
Thanks
Have you considered an aluminum frame 1911? I have 4 and they are amazing. Get an officer frame and you can have a 10 round mag for backup.
9mm keeping up. I prefer 45 acp. I like how the noise does not make your ears ring as much. 185 grain seems good in a 45. I have shot 9mm that kicks out of a barrette 92. No, fuud about it. WW2 tech just works. Less jams with a regular chamber. Fatter round is gonna do better with less effort.
That's right. That is where the Barnes 45 Ammo comes in at.185 +p mix with the HST 230gr hollow points is the best of both
Federal HST 124 +p is my absolute favorite SD/HD round for my Beretta92FS I pretty much get the same velocities you got here.
The long slide Glocks are amazing imo. Not an edc offering for most, but for plinking, range, competition, or home protection the G40/G41 are tough to beat...although the same calibers from S&W are also very nice in long barreled offerings.
I really think they are fine tuned for accuracy or something like that. Like mine with 230 gr ball ammo runs 100% and is really accurate, but it's had more problems with +P defensive ammo than any other pistol I have owned.
45 is better. The problem or mistake people make is comparing old slow 230 grain 45acp against modern high velocity 9mm.
Velocity is the key.
Put in a modern light weight 135-160 grain running around 1400fps in a 45 and theirs no comparison.
A Extreme Defender or EHP have significantly lower felt recoil too. There’s plenty of solid copper options for 45 that change the game.
Even at that, velocity alone tells little and can easily become over emphasized as a factor.
This test Gun Sam did illustrated that. The 45 load was subsonic, and the 9×19 is supersonic. Yet, rven though the 45 was two hundred and fifty ft./s. lower velocity, it penetrated signifcantly deeper in both shots, whilst also being considerably larger in diameter. By any yardstick, that means the round is more terminally effective on flesh. So bullet weight, bullet profile and bore size can all prove more signifcant than having higher velocity, within context.
That's one of the reasons things such as Taylor Knockout have real utility.
By energy foot-pounds, the 9×19 should have been essentially identical to the 45 ACP in this test, with ~ 437 ft./lbs. compared to the 45's ~ 470 ft./lbs. In actual result, the 45 penetrated 30-35% deeper whilst pushing an opened HP that was ~ 20% larger. That's much more stopping power, and something that 30 to 40 extra ft./lbs. wouldn't be a predicator of.
On the other hand, by Taylor Knockout the 9×19 sits at about 8, whereas the 45 ACP load has a TKO of just over 14. That meshes much more with observed terminal effect than the foot-poundage does.
That is nonsense with 135-160 grain you also just could take 40S&W. Then you get even more capacity and a smaller frame.
@@LibertysetsquareJack I agree 100% about the "higher damage" of the 45 ACP wound, but it comes at a price ofc, less capacity, you have to practice way more often than u usually would have to compared to 9mm, 9mm its cheaper to practice with and since it's also easier to shoot because of less recoil it becomes easier to hit your target with subsequential shots, at the end of the day I think it's about shot placement, there's also a good video from Garand Thumb where you can see that the wound from the 9x19 compared to the 45 ACP it's identical, you can't really tell the difference...
The only Federal HST .45 ACP and .45 ACP+P are 230 gr. Can't really do a 9mm VS .45 ACP Federal HST test without using 230 gr.
@Gieszkanne Problem too with seating light bullets in 45 ACP, is the sectional density starts dropping low.
So yes, if someone is going with 130-ish through 170 or so grains bullet weight, they'd probably do better to go with a caliber such as 40 S&W, or indeed, 9×19 Parabellum...or one could just be superior overall and go 357 Mag. ;)
Too light of bullets in chamberings such as 45 ACP or 44 Special is basically trying to turn those cartridges into something they were never designed to be.
The 45 fmj in real life is usually the same size as a well expanded 9mm give or take. Don’t bet your life on gel test on expansion and wound track in gel. 45 will hit your body so hard compared to a 9mm. Both are great rounds. But in real life victims most of these rounds don’t look like this after hitting bones etc. gel test are an expectation of the performance. I think people forget this.
Or, it's like has the same exact avg performances tested over and over again in real OIS....wow they never thought to compare before in all these years.......Same Avg penetration and avg expansion just in the initial test of 40ish bad guys shot. I wonder what hit so hard means in a scientific value can you explain how something with the same energy hits with more energy...hmmm
@@DanTheWolfman I agree with most of what you wrote, but energy doesn’t govern collisions. Momentum does.
If you’ve ever seen a free body diagram, it shows how forces interact. A bullet of mass M will slow down as it hits a target. The force acting on this bullet equals M x the acceleration at any given moment. The total force is the sum of each moment of force, which is a good measure of how much damage can be done. So how do you calculate the total amount of force acting on the bullet? It’s the total amount of acceleration multiplied by the mass.
If the bullet stops inside the target, the sum of all moments of acceleration is equal to the impact velocity. The product of the impact velocity and mass of the bullet is M*V which is the definition of momentum.
9mm is considered to work as well as 40 or 45 when you don't consider the mag dumps cops are doing with 9mm.
Thanks for the video
Them HST's are brutal. I got those in 10mm and they are powerful.
I've been debating switching out my home defense rounds to the standard pressure 124 hst. I found them 30 dollars for 50 rounds online
I’d pick whichever I could shoot better. I like 45 but would be fine with carrying the 9. Now if I’m needing a “woods” load, I’d take the 45 with the 22lb spring and feed it 250 grn BB loads or carry my hand loads that that make over 800 fpe.
You know a test that would end the 9 vs 45 test is run a max effort 9 vs 45 test. I’ve got hand loads for 9 that are major loads with a 130 grn solid making 650 fpe. But then I have 45 loads making 900 fpe using power pistol and 185 grn hp. In the end it’s what you have, your level of expertise/experience. Like I said, the 9 did fine & I like the idea of quick follow up and large capacity. If I’ve got jaws and claws I’ll want heavier projectiles and Rowland level power. Final note: I’ve got a colt 70 series that I setup like a Rowland. It makes Rowland level power using standard 45 brass. I’m running a 22 or 24# spring. I don’t remember which. The pistol has been living in this configuration for about 10 yrs now. So 261 grn cast at 1250 fps & 185’s at over 1500 fps. Now I don’t run that level of load all the time. No point in putting excessive wear on equipment if not needed. A 185 at 1300 fps is easy to shoot with a comped barrel and has enough sting to make it a one and done proposition in most cases I’d think for self defense. Claims are documented on my channel if anyone wants to go into the rabbit hole of what is possible.
Another fine video sir. Thank you for your testing.
Both calibers in the HST’s had very consistent velocities. 👍
Screw the trolls....really enjoy your informative content....I personally pick 9 over 45 but man that 45 definitely makes the steel ring louder
Thank you. I like both but i'm super picky about 9mm. I keep my 5" here loaded with 115 gr +P+ Federal 9BPLE as it's track record is legit. Put a standard pressure 9mm load in a 4" pistol, and I can't help but think about all the Glock 17/19 police activity channel videos where it seemed like the 9mm was about as effective as a bb gun.
I think things would have been more in the .45 ACP's favor had there been a 185 Gr. or even a 200 gr. bullet available in the HST for it, I've always felt that the 230 gr bullets were just too heavy for a .45 ACP but the 185's give you more powder capacity and that combined with the lighter weight and velocity achieved from a +p load it can not even be compared to any 9mm loading. You can get .45 ACP cartridges with 185 gr. bullets that give you over 550 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy with great expansion and that is what we should compare to the 9mm not the slowest and heavies bullet made for it. (Edit, I made this comment just before the end of the video where he says basically the same thing)
The muzzle energy doesn't mean much of anything. The heavier, higher sectional density bullet will penetrate more and also has the greater inertia.
Minimum or substandard penetration is worse than excessive penetration. The issue here occurs with rounds noses or bullets that don't expand at all
Too heavy? The 230 gr bullet is the standard for 45 auto! Don’t be obsessed with velocity number. A big bullet matters!
@@logangodofcandyexactly. Everyone is obsessed with energy foot lbs which favors velocity. No one uses Taylor Ko which factors weight, diameter and sec density! A 22-250 has more “energy foot lbs” than a 535 gr 45-70 at 1250 fps. Which one do you think will hit a buffalo harder?
@@66smithra This is true when you need a lot of penetration against an animal with thick skin, a lot of muscle mass and dense bones to get through but shooting a 1,000 pound bison and stopping a human or small animal threat such as a dog or mountain lion are two different things.
.45 all day long for me, great test and vid! 👍
That's right. Especially when you mix it with the Barnes 45 Ammo
Ide still pick 45 over 9. But those 45+ps did the same with Tools n targets and standard pressure hst45 performed flawlessly for whatever reason.
That's right now mix it with the Barnes Ammo 45 and you have the best of both
HST +P 45 is my EDC round. 👍 Nice test!
That's right. Especially when you mix them with the Barnes 45 Ammo
Don’t pay them pros any attention. I think you and Tools and Targets run the best gel test comparisons.
If you can get past all his yammerin' 😄
@ I enjoy his content. 😎
I hear his name mentioned a lot, and I don't watch myself because when I do this stuff, I don't want to know beforehand how a round performs if he happened to test it first. I like to watch stuff that I don't or can't do, like full auto or other various gun content. I'd get bored watching what I already do lol
@@GunSam Verification if anything, but yeah, confident in your own results that you're not looking for a repeat or confirmation.
Love the new "Moment of Impact" overlay! I've seen you cover a wideee variety of calibers over the years, but curious if you have ever tested (or planned on) anything in the 5.7 variety?
Some in the comments now suggest to take lighter bullets for 45 ACP with faster velocity. But from Lucky Gunners data where he tested 35 different rounds in 45 ACP the heavy 230gr open up the most. The biggest was Winchester Ranger T Series wit 1 inch! Bullet design is more important than velocity. Most 9mm wouldnt open up at 900fps because they are not designed for that. And with to much velocity they would open up to much or would fall apart with little penetration. This happens with some 44 Mag or 357 Mag when you shoot it into gel form lever actions.
Expansion is dependent on not clogging and having enough velocity that the fluid pressure at the nose causes expansion. This is usually based on the metal used and the size of the hollow point cavity.
Basically, you can design the bullet via shape, construction, and metallurgy to behave any way you want. These companies typically use the same construction and metallurgy on all of their calibers and bullet weights. An HST is the same bullet, no matter the gun you put it in. It would be different if they altered metal hardness and load pressures specifically for each one for specific barrel lengths. It would also cost lots of R&D
I recently saw a shooting where a robber looked like he absorbed 3-5 center mass shots from most likely a full size 9mm, and all he did was quickly crawl out of harms way like he just got punched in the stomach!
Videos like that have me second guess the 9mm that so many tactical instructors rave about..
He may have had armor on, i.e. ballistic vest. Taking three or more rounds to the chest and walking around like nothing happened is definitely not typical.
My thoughts exactly. Timers and first shot on target, they assume one hit means you win. Real world, a bad guy can be shot and still fire back.
If you haven't read about the Timothy Gramins shootout, you should check it out. That cop went from carrying .45 ACP to 9mm, and humping as much ammo as he can stand to. Pistol calibers are just not as effective as some people might think.
@@GunSam And contrary to FBI, two holes from a shot will bleed faster than 1 as hunting always shows (and exit wounds bleed more)
@@CraigLuna truth.
Federal's HST line is phenomenal, to say the least. As to 9mm HST beating 45 ACP HST loads, not really, at least from 5 inch barrel pistols. With shorter barrels, especially when you get to the 3 to 4 inch range, I do think the 9mm's higher velocity is more likely to generate reliable expansion than the slower 45 ACP. Of course, a 9mm may expand to .45, but a .45 will not shrink to 9mm diameter. Also, one can kill a man with 9mm, but the 45 ACP also kills his soul, so there's that. 😁
Personally, I rely upon 9mm as more rounds fit into a given magazine space, the recoil is fairly gentle, and 9mm is a lot less expensive than 45 ACP.
My P14 and Glock34 have the same basic size and capacity. I can't shoot 45 Super out of the P14, the +P+ I carry in the 34. That said, I never felt under gunned even when my carry was USP 45 Compact with 8rnd magazines. People never needed high cap until 9 became the norm.
Hell yeah Sam great job. I mix my 45 HST 230gr +p with the Barnes TAC-XPD 45 in 185+p and have the best of both worlds
45hst+p does 1050 from 8" Banshee.... everything 💯 of the time
If it’s hard to tell which would be better, they are pretty similar terminally. Therefore other factors bear more weight such as recoil, capacity, cost, etc.
The 45 penetrates much more reliably and is far more likely to stop a threat with fewer shots. The bullet that did the most damage to the gel was the 45 that didn't expand as much as it is supposed to. It was larger than 50 cal at that point and travelled nearly 18 inches.
Gel block aside…Man That 230gr banging the steel compared to the 124 is QUITE a difference. Can’t help but to imagine the comparison in an actual defense scenario. I carry both, and mostly HST’s actually, but I feel a little more at ease carrying my .45 after this one
I EDC a Glock 21 SF with a TTI+4 mag extension, concealed, everyday. I have it loaded with 230 +p HST. The key is to be a man, and train with your 45, if you want to be able to shoot it accurately as well as quickly.
Too many Richard Noggins out there. The trolls only wish they could shoot as good as you sir.
Absolutely agree. Keep em comming from a Pennsylvania fan. Good shooting gun Sam 😊
I am a fan of the 45 ACP. I would still be carrying it if weight didn't matter to me. I agree that velocity is important for HP expansion. Also, as I've said before, humans don't react well to bullets.
It's a shame that Federal doesn't offer 230gr +p+ as a factory load. About half the tests I've seen turn out just like yours, and the other half they look more like the 9mm did through the cloth/MDF. It seems like it's right on the edge of reliable expansion velocity. Have you tested the Gold Dot .45 +p? If I'm not mistaken it's 200gr; that slightly lower weight might be the ticket. Thanks for the videos, Sam!
The 45 performed well in both cases. The 9mm was mediocre in both cases.
I have no idea why people want the least effective penetration and most expansion
@logangodofcandy I'm not saying the HST in .45 wouldn't be effective; there are a lot of German and Japanese soldiers that got put in the ground with .45 ball that doesn't expand at all. The point is that you are paying a premium price for HST bullets (in any caliber) because they supposedly penetrate ~and~ expand fully. Shot-for-shot, the poorly expanded .45 would almost certainly do more damage than the sufficiently expanded 9mm, but at the end of the day, the 9mm in this test does what Federal markets it as doing. The .45 in this test does not.
Speer has a new 200gr +p in 45, says "new" on their page.
G2, I honestly thought they had that for a long time, they must not have had it in the .45 ACP before.
@@GunSam Seems there's a couple different product codes, found other 200gr on the market with the same velocity ratings and test barrel, but it's called "LE" on the box, versus this "G2" on Speer's site. Probably exactly the same product, maybe the other was discontinued.
There's 2 offerings from Speer in the 200gr Gold Dot +P. One is a G2 and the other is LE. I picked up some of the LE from sgammo.
@@EricSBleicher Just mentioned it. I think they are exactly the same cartridge and load.
What is your current carry rotation, and how has it wvolved ove the years of testing GunSam? 🤔
I think the FBI tests are done with Organic gel and I always see less overall penetration with the same ammunition when tested through organic gel than synthetic and they all usually fall between the 12 and 18 in. Ballistically the 45 is obviously the winner but since the 9mm HST creates plenty big enough permanent wound cavity and penetration, imo it is more sensible to go with the 9mm hst since you can expect it to be smoother and higher capacity for the same size handgun.
WTF is synthetic gel? Basically all of the the stuff we use is made from pork
The real winner is the HST….. it really does not matter what caliber you choose, you will definitely get premium performance EVERYTIME 💪💪
I wouldn't want to get shot with either of these rounds, but they are the best to use for protection.
Exactly what I was predicting when I first heard about the FBI wanting to do these tests. Shot for shot and much equal ammo to equal ammo, even though the velocity of this 45 is not reflecting plus P load at 5.3 in of barrel length. I shoot plus piano in my 45 of either 180 grain or usually 200 grain plus P that are usually running at around 1200 or better. But equal projectiles you will always get 25 to 30% greater permanent wound cavity with a 40 or 45 or a high-speed 357 Sig 9/23 38 Super 4357 Magnum over the best 9mm. Only the extremely hot 9 mm plus b plus and I mean it has to be very hot like almost submachine gun ammo range like 39,500 lb of pressure and up on a 125 grain hollow point to come close to that velocity out of this one 1300 ft per second that's a decent 9mm load. I would carry that in the only 9 mm I own which is a P35 Argentine Browning which is the most accurate 9 mm I have ever witnessed in my life my dad bought it in 1977 or 78. And it has been an absolute tack driver even with ball ammo.
When I finally went from a 357 and went to a semi-auto for my standard carry I went to 40 smith. And I will still carry a 40 Smith because I am standing out there alone trying to defend myself and I'll give up two shots of 9 mm all day long to hit somebody with a bullet that hits at least 70% to 85% harder with each shot than a 9mm. And do 30% better permanent wound cavity you do not get hydrostatic shock from the speeds of a pistol round you can only depend on permanent wound cavity.
The biggest lie the FBI ever said is they couldn't tell the difference between the wound cavity of a 9 mm and the ones of 40 Smith and 45. And I've seen the photos of their test. And you can clearly see the difference. It is palpable they are lying to you the only thing they're telling you the truth in is that the reason they went to 9 mm is because one they have a bunch of wimps who don't know how to shoot good defensive calibers. And their biggest reason, it's cheaper
Have you ever considered trying to compare a Glock 37 with a Glock 21 using Speer 200 grain Gold Dot.
A .45 G.A.P. Vs .45 A.C.P. Test.
I know Winchester made a 230 grain load in the G.A.P. that was a really good load for self defense.
Nope, and never will. I am not a professional and I have to purchase and register every gun I own, so I only buy guns that will pay for themselves in tests, IF that gun is in a caliber with tons of ammo choices that will get me a ton of testing over the years. The only exception is if it's a cheap gun. There's no way I would buy a Glock 37 to test the 4 or 5 various defensive loads that exist.
I would like to see this done with 165 or 185 gr in the 45 !
If a common pistol caliber bullet doesn’t penetrate the heart, spine or brain then I’m guessing the person who got shot isn’t going to suddenly die, they are going to take some time and bleed until they fall unconscious. Emergency room and postmortem reports I think would be the best data. Plenty of people have been shot in lots of different parts of the body with lots of different pistol calibers.
And I’m not sure how you compare your shot penetration distances with the FBI
testing when you’re not fallowing the FBI protocols. Are your shots farther or shorter than they would be if you were shooting the FBI test?
Excellent video Gun Sam. I think you can’t go wrong with HST’s in any caliber. I use HST in all main calibers except for 357 Sig. In 357 Sig, I choose Underwood Ammo to unleash the real power of 357 Sig.
Good!
I think in the real world, "Nasty" does better 😜
I won’t shoot anything but HST’s in any of my carry guns. Just a great round
45 is still better. I prefer the 185 or 200 weight. Would make the 9 look even worse than the 230 did. My 9mm is actually 357sig. All are good rounds, 9 and 357 penetrate barriers better. Oh and ignore the trolls, I wouldn't even read the comments if I were you.
That's what I carry. I'm a handloader.
Its rather an issue of bullet design than bullet weight and velocity.
230gr 45 is nearly equivalent sectional density to 147gr 9mm.
In this test, 200gr would be equivalent to the 124gr 9mm. Yet it's pretty hard to find 200gr loads, especially such like HST or Gold Dot.
@@exothermal.sprocket From Lucky Gunners Data there are 200gr Gold Dot and they did well in his gel test. But the Sig V crown in 200gr didnt even open up in bare gel.
@@Gieszkanne Yeah I was just over at the Speer site and saw the offering.
No, no, no!!! You're doing it all wrong!!!
Thank you, Daffy.
have you ever tryed a .45 super?
Yes, did several tests with it. Was never able to get it to run reliably.
Great presentation!
How much different is it to shoot the glock than a 1911 style 45.
very!
What I noticed was the .45 had a much harder recoil which could impact accuracy in a real world fight.
.357 HST just tested in the Modern Meat Target double MDF vs Budget Sierra ua-cam.com/video/Q3yRzFs9TEI/v-deo.html
And it was informative and helpful as well!
@@morrisadams1471 Cheers thanks! Watch the OG Modern Meat Target
Everyone seems obsessed with energy foot lbs. no one uses Taylor Ko factor. Bullet weight, sectional density, and frontal diameter definitely matter! People are so obsessed with velocity that they want to use 9mm weight bullets in the 45! They are missing the point. A 22-250 with a 55 gr bullet at 3700 fps has more “energy” than a 535 gr 45-70 moving at 1250 fps. But which one do you think hits a buffalo harder? Weight, diameter and sec density matter!
Yeah I agree Federal should make a 185gr .45acp +p load. Also gun manufacturers should be making their .45 guns strong enough to handle .45super.
No no.that why we have Barnes Ammo 45 in 185+p mix that with the HST 230gr +p and you have the best of both
Just wish there were more .45 options with >10 rd mags that loaded weighed no more than 35 ounces so .40 Enters the Chat. WINTER COLD NOW CARRYING P2000 .40 180 GR HSTs 12+1 & 5 rds Pitbull .40 165 gr Punch as my Backup/Weakside. 2 Thugs were hanging in parking lot as I was about to walk in so stayed a bit made sure family got in safe and watched them enough to try and give them the point not to break into cars and warned manager may want to call ask for a po po roll bye. I've tested 9 vs .40 my 1st Modern Meat Target and .38+ vs .40 Punch on snubs upcoming water jugs
Carry a spare mag. Problem solved.
@66smithra except the over 50k dgu vids saying otherwise
@@DanTheWolfman why would you need other videos to tell you that carrying a spare mag eliminates your supposed need for 10+ rounds? It’s true.
Sam it’s ok to say full power 45 Auto +P was/is more powerful than full power 9mm +p+p+ etc. More mass, more mass through a barrier, more diameter just MORE. The 9mm guys will get over it, they’re young and have plenty of time to except this.
The hottest 9mm +P+ JHP I have ever fired was in the vicinity of 550 ft lbs energy, Buffalo Bore. The issue is to get to those numbers you have to use a 115 gr which destroys any penetration potential. I have tested several .45 ACP +P loads that are in that same energy range and a few around 600 ft lbs energy. The difference is that at these energy numbers, the .45 ACP +P penetrated normally.
@@GunSam👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽 For the record, my neighbor now loves Grizzly 45 auto 230+P because of your test👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
My standard is block wiggles. 9mm wiggle versus .45 wiggle. subjective but seem a better wiggle with the 45.
Hot .357mag wiggles the block into a backflip. Haha
@@exothermal.sprocket 45LC loaded to Redhawk only level makes it somersault.
@@Master-AGN 454 Casull Buffalo Bore through a 20in Carbine...
Well you get the idea.
@@exothermal.sprocket
45LC the sweet spot between the 44 and 454.
@@Master-AGN Yeah, probably the one do-everything cartridge in existence.
Regards consistency, it's very hard to assess that just with one shot of each through the MDF. To truly measure consistency you would need a string of shots for each caliber, with a fresh medium for each one.
People who specialize in statistical analysis would agree with your point, but that does not invalidate the data set presented nor detract from it's usefulness in a general sense. Data sets that are considered large enough to do meaningful analysis are quite large, so large that most "guntubers" don't have the resources to compile them. That subject is out of my lane otherwise and I will leave that debate for those that have skin in that game.
@hillbillyscholar8126 Yep, and I'm not suggesting Gun Sam do a full blown labortary-style setup either. I think Paul Harrel had a great comprise though: three or five shot string of each cartridge.
@@LibertysetsquareJack Fair enough. I miss Paul.
@@hillbillyscholar8126 Yeah they broke the mold with him.
The laws of physics will not be denied. If big bullets were the answer, then the US Army would use .45 for rifles, but they don't. FPS is more important than bullet diameter. A .30-06 (7.6mm) going 2500 to 2900 feet per second has less diameter than 9mm, but can leave a 3" exit hole in an enemy soldier, without being a hollow point! To say nothing of 5.56. The way these cases are loaded seems to make a big difference, and makes 9mm highly competitive with .45 ACP. Especially with solid copper, Underwood or G9 Defense.
Copper fluted bullets are unproven and simply tumble. I have seen enough slow motion impacts to know, not any different than a fancy Fort Scott TUI.
@@GunSam 1/3 of JHPs fail to expand on impact. Solid copper does not have that issue. Also, exit wounds are 3 times larger and PWCs are astonishing in tested animal tissue as opposed to the best JHPs, e.g. Fed HST. I know what you are saying though. The FBI will not even test solid copper because it does not expand.
That 45 is pretty failure. Even with boost of longer barrel there is no complete expansion once it hits fabrique (not to mention that denim is even harder expansion stopper than tshirt). As we know, HST is the best thing you can buy and still gets medicore results in 45. Now imagine something more practical for carry - like Shield 45...
Is everyone stuck on "penetration" power or what. The .45 ACP was designed to be a big heavy slug traveling slow in terms of bullet fps. It penetrates and usually instantly expands the hollow point,therefore dumping its mass energy into its target by its spreaded slug creating wound cavity. It was a preferred choice sidearm especially in trench and bunker warfare because there was less chance of over penetration and striking an unintentional target or a fell9w soldier in a crossfire. Im not saying you're trying to disprove the .45 but do note, clothing, actual dense tissue and bone will spread that hollow point faster than gel since ballistic gell is consistent in density whereas the body isnt. I have both calibers and understanding their pros and cons determining which I use. If i was forced to defend myself against a shooter in a car or hiding behind a wall, 9mm, an open target like an armed robber whos out in the open then .45. Like the 10 mm, its essentially a 40 caliber round with 9mm power pushing a big slug faster, better for bigger targets. Again I'm not slamming your video, I just feel people are obsessed with power over effectiveness. Less damage if it travels straight through, massive internal injury if it parks in an abdomen or lung
I will still take the Hornady critical duty 220gr +p in 45 over the HST.
All Fall to Ball. 45.acp.
185 grain + p 🇺🇸
I don’t care what you say, how many gel tests and such, but having attended several autopsies resulting from .45 caliber interventions, and having at the same time spoken to people recently shot by 9mm, there can be no real comparison. After 33 years of police work, I’ve never spoken to anyone shot by a .45 in the chest; they all expired
👍👍