John Moses Browning made the 1911 to shoot hardball ammo and he extended his ghostly hand from beyond the grave to squeeze the bullets and keep them from expanding.
I was thinking about the same. Could it be the 1911 barrel? TaT should do a FS Glock and FS M&P test, and see what difference, if any, the rifling might make. And to be clear, my thought was about 1911 barrels, not J.M.B's. Ghost.
There is a reason I do not own a single Winchester HP round in any caliber.. Over the years I have seen more Winchester rounds fail to expand than all the other ammo brands combined. Winchester and Corbon are the two brands I would never carry for SD.
@@kennethferguson4283 I'm a little surprised by your statement. I use a variety of ammo, and have had almost no issues. Nothing that makes me think that any specific maker sells defective products. Nothing is 100% effective, firearm or ammo. I don't think I ever fired Corbon, but I would bet my family's lives on Winchester.
This makes zero sense, but this is why I appreciate so much you actually running these tests. Because making a "best guess" based on past results and expectations won't get us very far.
As the great Paul Harrell says, "Hollow points are velocity based. The greater the velocity, the greater the expansion... up to a point." I think you just found that point, where the increased velocity resulted in no expansion
I wonder too, if it is the different barrels? Does the Glock have the polygonal rifling? Perhaps it squeezes the bullet open a bit more? I cannot see either having a massive twist rate difference, but that too could contribute. If you can get a Commander 1911 and a G-21 and see how they do with the ammo. Puzzling indeed.🤔
I would suggest that the faster bullets are "cookie cutting" the clothing and thereby filling the cavity on the bullet making it act like ball ammo. The slower rounds may have more effectively pushed the fibers out of the way, rather than cutting them and thereby allowing the cavity to open properly upon hitting the gel. Examination of the entrance holes in the denim may support or deny this theory.
I've watched hundreds of ballistic gel tests on UA-cam at this point, and I've literally never seen the same hollow point bullet get less expansion from a long barrel than from a short one. This is one of the most interesting tests I've seen, and thanks SO much for doing the 3rd Glock 30 shot (After the second G30 shot, I was thinking "maaan, there's enough room there for him to do another test if he stops now, but I really want to see if the round expands on a good shot from the 30....") I have only a few even theoretical ideas for what could have happened, and these are all wild guesses, I've never heard any of this actually claimed: * - A different rifling pattern stabilized the bullet differently, and the extra spin (or reduction in spin?) aided in expansion * - The specific shape of the cavity caused an air bubble or something to form at the tip only at the 1911's velocity, which disrupted the Venturi effect * - @Zantar45's explanation. All seem equally plausible? I guess? I definitely wouldn't run this ammo, for the same reason I wouldn't use a computer if I saw evidence that Tron was real. If the way something works can only be explained by nonsense that I don't understand and shouldn't be possible, I'm out👋
Appreciate ya. I sure didn't like having to use up the space but it had to be done. I suppose any of those could be the case or just extreme coincidence between barrel lengths and general inconsistency.🤷♂️
I bought this stuff for my full size 1911 bedside gun (based off of an old .40sw silver tip video you made). I am definitely making a change. Thanks again for all you do for the gun community and for keeping these companies honest!!
I’m not an expert on physics, but maybe the extra speed from the longer barrel is just enough to cut a section of the denim and cause it to clog, while the shorter barrel is slow enough to tear and allow the hollow point to pass through? Might be a round worth a test through some more true to life medium, like a meat target. Can’t say I’ve ever seen a test like this before, definitely some interesting results!
I can tell you from personal knowledge that my agency used glock 21, with Speer hollow points. They expanded fine. It must the rifling of the Glock or the make up of the ammunition.
Yea, Very wierd that the longer barrel didn't open up for sure. What's really weird for me is my first .45ACP was my first handgun 4.6" barrel, and have never put anything through it that's a HP, just FMJ's. For me shot placement with "The Lords' Caliber" is my main concern.
Evan Marshall gave the advice, pick the load that shoots well out of your carry gun, and has a good reputation for performing, and then assume it will fail. Interesting test. Thanks T&T.
This might sound stupid but maybe because it's such a wide projectile, the faster velocity is cavitating the gel as it passes through and is causing a gap between the leading edge of the projectile and the gel. The gel can't resist enough to cause expansion on the faster projectile. Just a guess
That makes some sense to me and my rudimentary knowledge of physics and applied forces. I'd also like to add I can't come up with a reason nor would have thought of your explanation bit, makes sense.
Would not have believed this without seeing it. Pretty much figured increased velocity would equal greater expansion. This just proves ballistics is just as much of an art as it is science.
Silvertip ammunition did not all have plated cases. Actually I never saw it with anything but plain brass cases in all calibers dating back to the 1980s. I still have a bunch of it that's that old in .32 ACP, .380, .38 Special 90 and 120 grain, and 10mm. All brass cases with aluminum jacketed bullets. Those loads often had core/jacket separation. Both bullet design and jacket material have changed since the early 2000s or so. Also .45 Colt. Forgot about that one for a moment. I believe all original Silvertip loads in all calibers had aluminum jackets. I carry new style 145 grain Silvertips in my 2 1/2" S&W 686. They had a pretty good reputation on the street in the '80s and '90s.
That is downright odd. I'd like to see a Glock 21 vs a 3" 1911 just to see if it's the gun or the velocity. If it's the velocity then I'm guessing there's a time window for expansion that the faster round is passing by. Might be nice to see the exact same test except with no cloth.
It IS a time window, it's so fast that it expands while traveling through the future and contracts back to original specs as it slows down and re-enters the present.
You're going to have to retest, and flip the guns. A G21 full length, vs that 3.5 Colt you use occasionally. Is it twist rate of the rifling, less stable in the RI, or the higher speed making the cylindrical shape hollow point act like a cookie cutter? There was no denim clogged inside.
I shot 3 145 grain Silver Tips rounds for my.357 magnum, i was very disappointed by the performance out of a 4 inch revolver. They failed to expand, could have just been a bad batch, i don't know. I didn't have gel to shoot in though.I still have one of the rounds.I'm not a fan of new Ammo, When it comes to the .357, i want SJHP from Remington. Anyway, great video, thanks.
I used the .357 magnum 145 grain Silvertip for deer hunting in the mid-nineties. I gave it up because the bullets expanded well but did not penetrate enough. I shot one big buck 6 times at ranges from 55 to 10 yards and no bullets went in over 6". I switched to handloads with Hornady XTP 158 gr. slugs and found the ideal hunting projectile. I still have 10 boxes of Silvertips from 1994.
My "guess" is that somewhere between the velocity of those shots is where they get thru the clothing barrier differently enough to make THE difference. We know that clothing often clogs a hollow point and turns it into a common round-nose with regard to its performance in various media. Nobody has studied it in detail but I think there's more to learn on that subject.
I think the extra velocity from the 1911 had just enough force to shove the denim down into the hollowpoint cavity whereas the g30 bullett was moving slow enough it was able to shed the denim. Im sure if you had cotton t shirt the 1911 would have done fine.multiple layers of denim IS the absolute worst case scenario. I wouldnt hesitate to use silvertip 45 in the summer... but i would be very cautious when it gets colder and people wear sweat shirts and coats.
I had this stuff 30+ years ago for home defence. I remember shooting it into water jugs with no material in front. ( before FBI came up with clothing barrier test) I may still have that bullet but it did well as I remember. I think the jacket was polished aluminum if memory serves. My gun was an early Springfield 1911 from the 90s.
Same here. Out of a full magazine of 185gr Silvertips into in a series of gallon water jugs on a table at about 20 feet. Only 3 shattered the jug and blew water everywhere. The other 4 just went through and left leaking jugs. Had a final 3 that I shot straight down into sand. One flattened out beautifully. The other 2 could have been fmj. The sand scored them but didn't particularly flatten the edges. I was confused. Regular 230 gr hardball would always shatter gallon water jugs somewhat and spray some water. Went back to hardball for years. Technology has changed greatly, I now carry 230gr HST. It seems to work reliably, but any handgun is your best choice until you can reach a rifle or shotgun.
@antoniotula262 can't knock a Hi-Point! They just keep on running from what I've seen! I don't own one, but I could have bought five of them for what my XD45 cost!
@@chrislang5659 People joke about them, but it seems they actually work pretty well. I'm an XD fan also & would take an XD45 over pretty much anything.
Thank you for all your tests. I would like to see you conduct all your .45 tests out of one of the popular shorty 3.3 inch barrel pistols: - S&W Shield 45 (1st gen or M.2) or - Springfield XDs (1st gen or Mod 2) Again, both those brands have 3.3 inch barrels. Thanks.
You've should look into this 185gr 9mm from Seismic Ammo. They call it "QuakeMakerTM +M 9mm NATO". There are no videos on YT that actually have a meaningful display of the ammo, pretty much clips of people shooting it, or just talking about it (no jelly, no chrono). It's possibly a good option for suppressors, due to its lower velocity. You'd have a unique test in your library :)
Back in the day, the military and the FBI used to test ammo using pig carcasses. Messy but more analogous to a human body than "gel". Another great video, bro!
I have noticed a very interesting trend. A lot if not most of the high-performance rounds you test work far better in the shorter barrels at slower velocities than they are supposed to. Like in this test, the longer barrel at higher velocity fails, but when they are going slower, they work as they should. Why? That is the 50K question. If you look back at a bunch of other rounds in various calibers, you tested previously, this trend seems to be a thing.
This was very odd indeed. I can think of no explanation for the wide difference between the two. 🤔 As for my own personal experience, I'm an old school caster and hand loader. Haven't bought factory ammo in decades. In the 45 Auto, I cast a 200gr RNFP or a 200gr SWC in what's equal to a 20:1 lead/tin bullet. Hard enough to not lead the bore, but soft enough to expand in hogs, coyote, and feral dogs I encounter on my place out in the woods. I've never used gel blocks, but I get enough critters that don't belong here to shoot. 😅
Well, I think it is a bit odd that the same ammo out two different guns had such distinctly different performance. The Winchester Silvertips have always worked well for me over the years. Before you get too worked up because the rounds from the RIA 1911 failed to expand, consider the effect of a .451 diameter hole being punched through a bad guy's body. Plenty of folks have assumed room temperature because of an encounter with an old fashioned 230 grain FMJ projectile. Sure, I'd be happier if they had expanded fully like the rounds from the Glock. But I'm not about to go unload the magazine in my .45ACP CCW and change to a different cartridge just because you had two rounds fail to expand in gel. I sure would not want to be hit by one of those rounds fired out of your 1911. YMMV and all that other happy doody.
I got a bunch of this during the mid 00's. Still have a lot, but mostly moved onto PMC Starfire 230gr. Glad to know the Silvertips are good too. I think Silvertips in general have always been underrated.
That's a weird one! My first thought was maybe the twist rate was different but from limited info available it looks like they're the same. Some 1911's have left hand twist (dont know about rock island) but that shouldn't matter in theory. So...I got nothin! Great test as always
That one is a bit of a conundrum. Normally it 5” barrels that are needed to push the velocity needed for HP expansion in 45 ACP … I can’t recall seeing these results! I will be sticking with my Underwood 230gr +P for now! Thanks for the video
I think the polygonal rifling of the glock had a effect on the bullet where the standard rifling had a different effect on the bullet the polygonal rifling on glocks and hk pistols are known for higher pressures and good performance. Besides that i cant think of why a short barrel would do better than a longer barrel. Maybe do a test of the different barrel rifling between polygonal and standard rifling. 185 grains is perfect hp weight for a 45 to expand because of the higher speeds compared to a 200 or 230 grain bullet.
Was this 30 a gen 4 or a new Marksman barrel gen 5? I know Glock USA 🇺🇸 revised the barrels & new Glock 30s 21s came out around 2yr ago. I own a used Glock 41 .45acp gen 4. I added a new KKM match barrel. I rarely shoot or carry it.
If you look at the video at starting .51 seconds of the ammo intro you can see his glock 30 on the table with no front cocking serrations on the slide so it’s definitly an older model that doesnt have the updated marksman barrel and he doesn’t mention any barrel change 👍🏻
I have never understood why so many ammo manufacturers seem to treat their test barrel lengths as a proprietary secret. Why do they do that? No reason I can think of...
A smart firm would T&E rounds with a 5" barrel .45acp and for a solid idea of performance, a ccw size 3". I myself think the min for a carry or duty .45acp is 4". The big heavy .45 bullet needs to expand, punch out 🥊 . This is why Colt sold 1000s of 1911 style SAO Cdrs. 1960s 1970s 1980s.
Definitely an odd result! Need to revisit this test with a G41 for the long barrel and a 3” 1911. If you get the same results maybe try a bare gel test just to see if the extra velocity out of the longer barrel is packing the cloth into the cavity tighter and it just cant clear it out. Maybe the shorter barrel with less velocity doesn’t pack so tight into the hollow point so it’s able to clear it. Would be an interesting test just to find out what might be going on.
Good video. Those two pistols have different rifling. I wonder if that changes things. The original Silvertip pistol bullets had an aluminum jackets. They were changed to copper and plated. I think the 32 ACP still has the aluminum jacket.
So use the shorter barrel for hunting werewolves 🐺? Odd results but makes me think commander size/4.25in might be a happy medium. Velocity was higher than I expected but recoil didnt look bad at all. I may buy/if on sale for the Commander to check out. Interesting video. Good video!👍🙏
Ive got a RIA 1911 in 9mm, only bc i enjoy shooting a 1911 occasionally. Not sure why the reason for this weirdness, but ill add it to the list if the reasons my glocks and berettas are the only GTW guns i would trust...could be a fluke but im not willing to trust it. Great stuff as always my brotha. Solid info.
All I can think is that on the higher velocity shots, the higher velocity enabled a cleaner cookie cutter action on the denim, clogging the hollow point, while maybe on the G30, the lower velocity pushed through the denim instead of filling up the hollow point. I'm guessing you would get full expansion on both without the clothing barrier. Except when you examine the rounds there isn't any clothing wadded in the 5" barrel rounds!
Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P JHP Federal HST 124gr Those are my go too’s for .45AARP but then I carried full size pistols… cause I don’t care if I print. Moved away from .45acp due to poor barrier penetration and low capacity for the vast majority of pistols. FN tactical being the exception.
A 5" barrel .45ACP is too big for me to carry concealed anyway. So very rare and unusual for a defensive round to perform better out of a shorter barrel. I'll take it.
I'd like to see how this stuff would perform out of a 4.25" Commander. Your results are perplexing for sure. Thank you for all your hard work and great info!
45 super can be fired from HK USP w/o modification. Buffalo bore 185 grain will throw you for a loop when tested in ballistic gel. You will see what i mean.
I've got some of the old silvertip in 44. Still a couple of boxes in the stash. They expand out of 44 spl. not full mushroom but they are a wicked projo. Truly evil in mag loads. Old means from the late 80s old.
My thought when you too the second shot with the 5” was… what are the chances that they found the perfect threshold of all the criteria for 4” concealed pistols… as you continued and my thought became reality. Outstanding brother! Thank you!👍🏼
Could be these: Bullety tip filled and did not create expansion force. Not most likely. The other two could relate to twist rate and/or depth of rifling cuts? I shot the old Sivertips through a Detonic's Combat Master with a 3.5" brl which always expanded to .570-.575". My gov't 1911 didn't expand reliably, but did not fail 100% of the time. So, who knows? Good testing anyway. Keep 'em coming and I'll keep watching 'em.
Another great test. I love the sound of that echo through those beautiful hills! Hey, I was thinking during the strange results you were getting, do you think a different barrel twist would do that?
Rifling style and twist rate have a dramatic affect on terminal ballistics. I would like to see these silver tips in the G30 and a G21. Then barrel length would be only variable.
I’ve seen other tests where .45 expands fine at a given velocity but expands very poorly at higher velocity. Military Arms Channel did one a while ago where that happened.
Just when you think you got it all figured out, sometimes you get thrown a curveball. Most of the time it's more speed needed for expansion, this was a strange one. Such a narrow window for good performance from short barrel to the 5" 🤔 Have a good one brother see you on the next one.
I just picked up the Springfield XDM-Elite compact in .45acp with the 3.8" barrel over the father's day weekend sale from PSA, looks like this ammo would work great in this pistol.
Depends on the gun. I had a little revolver that wouldn’t shoot for shit until I got some 110gn Silvertip 38 Specials then it shot decent groups and to POA
The only diffference i can see is the rifling on the two guns.Maybe the conventional rifling ,by the way it imprints on the bullets it prohibits them from expanding? That's a head scratcher ,for sure.
I think it's just 2 much clothing sometimes clogging the hollow point. Cool video though. I've shot a doe with a .45 colt silvertip, and it got great expansion.
That’s unexpected! With factory new name brand ammo, I can’t remember any of my own tests that didn’t show the increased expansion and usually less penetration with the longer barrel. That is why the tests are so important. Assumptions just don’t always equal the results irl. Definitely wouldn’t trust these even in the G30s just due to the odd results.
True amazing performance from the shorty. Now you have my curiosity piqued about the Commander length 🤔 My thought on the difference is perhaps the higher velocity caused it to destabilize just enough to not hit the gel at the same angle. Or perhaps the rotational speeds were different. Either way, great test, Tools 🎉 if I had a G30 I would use these. Maybe Commander, too.
I made the suggestion one time that maybe on some fails put another one in the gel, and was promptly told, absolutely not a fail is a fail! I'm not one to argue good logic. Don't understand how this happens and I will never trust agin unless I see gun specific results performance
Around the 12 minute mark you start calling the Rock Island 1911 "The G17". I know what you are talking about but I figured that you would want to know so that you can make the corrections.
I may be mis-remembering, but seems to me the old Silvertip ammo was also plain brass cased and loaded to maximum pressure/velocity. Not +P, but it was definitely full power stuff. It was good defensive ammo in its day, but I think modern bullets like Federal's HST, Speer's Gold Dot, and Winchester's Ranger-T are better.
Hey Tools am about to get me a little 327 magnum and wanted your opinion on how it handles. This was a very nice test very interesting results. Stay safe out there my man.
My best guess for why the faster bullets failed to expand would be that maybe that extra velocity caused them to clog, whereas the slower rounds pierced through without clogging because the cloth had slightly more time to give way. Nothing was clogged in the weighing/measuring segment, so perhaps the cloth was shed earlier in the gel. Just a wild guess.
Rock Island is a budget firearm. Perhaps, the rifling is off and the bullet is not spinning fast enough . I believe it would be worthwhile to use a higher quality long barrel and retest.
Maybe try a commander. I would use them in my defender size. If you get expansion in a commander I would use them too. I am a .45 guy. After all of your testing I pretty much use ball, because they all fall. Thanks for all this information.
John Moses Browning made the 1911 to shoot hardball ammo and he extended his ghostly hand from beyond the grave to squeeze the bullets and keep them from expanding.
😲😲😲
I was thinking about the same. Could it be the 1911 barrel? TaT should do a FS Glock and FS M&P test, and see what difference, if any, the rifling might make.
And to be clear, my thought was about 1911 barrels, not J.M.B's. Ghost.
I agree weird! I want to simply run my 230 round nose! But good job Tools! All you can do is try bother!
There is a reason I do not own a single Winchester HP round in any caliber.. Over the years I have seen more Winchester rounds fail to expand than all the other ammo brands combined. Winchester and Corbon are the two brands I would never carry for SD.
@@kennethferguson4283 I'm a little surprised by your statement. I use a variety of ammo, and have had almost no issues. Nothing that makes me think that any specific maker sells defective products.
Nothing is 100% effective, firearm or ammo. I don't think I ever fired Corbon, but I would bet my family's lives on Winchester.
This makes zero sense, but this is why I appreciate so much you actually running these tests. Because making a "best guess" based on past results and expectations won't get us very far.
😎👊
That's crazy results, I would never guessed. Thanks for always giving us honest results!
Very crazy stuff.
As the great Paul Harrell says, "Hollow points are velocity based. The greater the velocity, the greater the expansion... up to a point." I think you just found that point, where the increased velocity resulted in no expansion
😎👊
Paul Harrell, the patron saint of GunTube.
I wouldn't know how to interpret it in terms of the to a point thing but interesting
I wonder too, if it is the different barrels? Does the Glock have the polygonal rifling? Perhaps it squeezes the bullet open a bit more? I cannot see either having a massive twist rate difference, but that too could contribute. If you can get a Commander 1911 and a G-21 and see how they do with the ammo. Puzzling indeed.🤔
I always thought he was talking about the projectile fragmenting instead of expanding.
I never buy any ammo without Tool's recommendations, Tool's is the best ammo testin human on the entire planet!. 🇺🇲👍🏾👍🏻🇺🇲👍🏾👍🏻🇺🇲
Appreciate ya, brother!😎👊
Amen to that!
A-Men to that!
Happy Father's Day to all the patriot dads out there.
Appreciate ya, brother!😎👊
What about the normal dads?
@@guaporeturns9472 If "normal dads" ain't patriots, we're in for some hard times before sanity reigns again.
I would suggest that the faster bullets are "cookie cutting" the clothing and thereby filling the cavity on the bullet making it act like ball ammo. The slower rounds may have more effectively pushed the fibers out of the way, rather than cutting them and thereby allowing the cavity to open properly upon hitting the gel. Examination of the entrance holes in the denim may support or deny this theory.
I've watched hundreds of ballistic gel tests on UA-cam at this point, and I've literally never seen the same hollow point bullet get less expansion from a long barrel than from a short one. This is one of the most interesting tests I've seen, and thanks SO much for doing the 3rd Glock 30 shot (After the second G30 shot, I was thinking "maaan, there's enough room there for him to do another test if he stops now, but I really want to see if the round expands on a good shot from the 30....")
I have only a few even theoretical ideas for what could have happened, and these are all wild guesses, I've never heard any of this actually claimed:
* - A different rifling pattern stabilized the bullet differently, and the extra spin (or reduction in spin?) aided in expansion
* - The specific shape of the cavity caused an air bubble or something to form at the tip only at the 1911's velocity, which disrupted the Venturi effect
* - @Zantar45's explanation.
All seem equally plausible? I guess? I definitely wouldn't run this ammo, for the same reason I wouldn't use a computer if I saw evidence that Tron was real. If the way something works can only be explained by nonsense that I don't understand and shouldn't be possible, I'm out👋
Appreciate ya. I sure didn't like having to use up the space but it had to be done. I suppose any of those could be the case or just extreme coincidence between barrel lengths and general inconsistency.🤷♂️
I bought this stuff for my full size 1911 bedside gun (based off of an old .40sw silver tip video you made). I am definitely making a change. Thanks again for all you do for the gun community and for keeping these companies honest!!
In .45acp for security jobs or personal carry, ccw I use Federal HST 230gr +P. It's a high vel, high KE level load.
I’m not an expert on physics, but maybe the extra speed from the longer barrel is just enough to cut a section of the denim and cause it to clog, while the shorter barrel is slow enough to tear and allow the hollow point to pass through? Might be a round worth a test through some more true to life medium, like a meat target. Can’t say I’ve ever seen a test like this before, definitely some interesting results!
Might be it.
My thoughts exactly. You beat me to it !
I've tested silver tips before. They plug with fabric and keep on goin'.
Agreed - Life is not ballistic gel. Meat & bone … right ?
@@ToolsandTargets Try it again out of the longer barrel with no denim and see if they expand, Can't hurt.
That's the best guess yet in my opinion, I think it definitely had something to do with the cloth.
I can tell you from personal knowledge that my agency used glock 21, with Speer hollow points. They expanded fine.
It must the rifling of the Glock or the make up of the ammunition.
Glocks have polyganal rifling, which speeds up the bullet a lot more. Kahr pistol demonstration proved this
To me, this is your most interesting test yet. Unexplainable that the bullets didn’t expand at higher velocity
Yea, Very wierd that the longer barrel didn't open up for sure. What's really weird for me is my first .45ACP was my first handgun 4.6" barrel, and have never put anything through it that's a HP, just FMJ's. For me shot placement with "The Lords' Caliber" is my main concern.
Yeah, still a big ol hole.
I have never been a fan of Winchester pistol ammo and this just confirms it like many other tests. Thanks for doing this Tools.
Evan Marshall gave the advice, pick the load that shoots well out of your carry gun, and has a good reputation for performing, and then assume it will fail. Interesting test. Thanks T&T.
This might sound stupid but maybe because it's such a wide projectile, the faster velocity is cavitating the gel as it passes through and is causing a gap between the leading edge of the projectile and the gel. The gel can't resist enough to cause expansion on the faster projectile. Just a guess
🤷♂️
That makes some sense to me and my rudimentary knowledge of physics and applied forces. I'd also like to add I can't come up with a reason nor would have thought of your explanation bit, makes sense.
Thats kind of what I was wondering.
But 44mag and 45 colt silver tip have expanded for me and there faster. Idk?
Valid hypothesis, for certain.
Tools, you need to buy $100K slow-mo camera to verify 🍻
Super weird. Tools must have run this test on Opposite Day 🤷♂️
Would not have believed this without seeing it. Pretty much figured increased velocity would equal greater expansion. This just proves ballistics is just as much of an art as it is science.
Beautiful gel disruption, I think its the glock polygonal rifling that is the difference we see between the two. Thanks Double T!l!
Thank you sir.😎👊
Silvertip ammunition did not all have plated cases. Actually I never saw it with anything but plain brass cases in all calibers dating back to the 1980s. I still have a bunch of it that's that old in .32 ACP, .380, .38 Special 90 and 120 grain, and 10mm. All brass cases with aluminum jacketed bullets. Those loads often had core/jacket separation. Both bullet design and jacket material have changed since the early 2000s or so. Also .45 Colt. Forgot about that one for a moment. I believe all original Silvertip loads in all calibers had aluminum jackets. I carry new style 145 grain Silvertips in my 2 1/2" S&W 686. They had a pretty good reputation on the street in the '80s and '90s.
That is downright odd. I'd like to see a Glock 21 vs a 3" 1911 just to see if it's the gun or the velocity. If it's the velocity then I'm guessing there's a time window for expansion that the faster round is passing by. Might be nice to see the exact same test except with no cloth.
Gonna have to do a little more with this stuff for sure.
That is exactly what I was thinking.
Agreed. I’d be tempted to test tow different length Glock barrels
It IS a time window, it's so fast that it expands while traveling through the future and contracts back to original specs as it slows down and re-enters the present.
You're going to have to retest, and flip the guns. A G21 full length, vs that 3.5 Colt you use occasionally.
Is it twist rate of the rifling, less stable in the RI, or the higher speed making the cylindrical shape hollow point act like a cookie cutter? There was no denim clogged inside.
Great vid Tools!! Thanks.....I think the moral of this story is" If you want to use this ammo get a G30 and call it a day".
Yep 😎👊
😂🤣😂
You couldn't give me one!
I shot 3 145 grain Silver Tips rounds for my.357 magnum, i was very disappointed by the performance out of a 4 inch revolver. They failed to expand, could have just been a bad batch, i don't know. I didn't have gel to shoot in though.I still have one of the rounds.I'm not a fan of new Ammo, When it comes to the .357, i want SJHP from Remington. Anyway, great video, thanks.
I used the .357 magnum 145 grain Silvertip for deer hunting in the mid-nineties. I gave it up because the bullets expanded well but did not penetrate enough. I shot one big buck 6 times at ranges from 55 to 10 yards and no bullets went in over 6". I switched to handloads with Hornady XTP 158 gr. slugs and found the ideal hunting projectile. I still have 10 boxes of Silvertips from 1994.
@MrTruckerf You hunted with hollow points...from a pistol?! 😅 Roll it around awhile, you'll spot the flaw in your reasoning.
My "guess" is that somewhere between the velocity of those shots is where they get thru the clothing barrier differently enough to make THE difference. We know that clothing often clogs a hollow point and turns it into a common round-nose with regard to its performance in various media. Nobody has studied it in detail but I think there's more to learn on that subject.
Interesting test. The G30 does it again. I think the failure on the RIA is projectile stabilization from the barrel.
Very possible.
different barrel rifling and or twist rate is my best guess, strange but its still a 45 caliber bullet none the less
I think the extra velocity from the 1911 had just enough force to shove the denim down into the hollowpoint cavity whereas the g30 bullett was moving slow enough it was able to shed the denim. Im sure if you had cotton t shirt the 1911 would have done fine.multiple layers of denim IS the absolute worst case scenario. I wouldnt hesitate to use silvertip 45 in the summer... but i would be very cautious when it gets colder and people wear sweat shirts and coats.
I had this stuff 30+ years ago for home defence. I remember shooting it into water jugs with no material in front. ( before FBI came up with clothing barrier test) I may still have that bullet but it did well as I remember. I think the jacket was polished aluminum if memory serves. My gun was an early Springfield 1911 from the 90s.
Same here. Out of a full magazine of 185gr Silvertips into in a series of gallon water jugs on a table at about 20 feet. Only 3 shattered the jug and blew water everywhere. The other 4 just went through and left leaking jugs. Had a final 3 that I shot straight down into sand. One flattened out beautifully. The other 2 could have been fmj. The sand scored them but didn't particularly flatten the edges. I was confused. Regular 230 gr hardball would always shatter gallon water jugs somewhat and spray some water. Went back to hardball for years. Technology has changed greatly, I now carry 230gr HST. It seems to work reliably, but any handgun is your best choice until you can reach a rifle or shotgun.
Yes they can be very good. I had a hi point 45 years ago it would run great with sliver tips and group very well. In that hi point.
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I'm guessing with the money saved on the pistol allowed you to get some Gucci ammo!😅❤❤❤
@@chrislang5659😂😂😂
@antoniotula262 can't knock a Hi-Point! They just keep on running from what I've seen! I don't own one, but I could have bought five of them for what my XD45 cost!
@@chrislang5659 People joke about them, but it seems they actually work pretty well. I'm an XD fan also & would take an XD45 over pretty much anything.
Thank you for all the work. Getting my Vector into working order and I appreciate the 45 tests
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Thank you for all your tests.
I would like to see you conduct all your .45 tests out of one of the popular shorty 3.3 inch barrel pistols:
- S&W Shield 45 (1st gen or M.2)
or
- Springfield XDs (1st gen or Mod 2)
Again, both those brands have 3.3 inch barrels.
Thanks.
I’ve been around a long, long time and I don’t believe I’ve ever seen faster velocities resulting in less expansion. Strange, very strange.
You've should look into this 185gr 9mm from Seismic Ammo. They call it "QuakeMakerTM +M 9mm NATO". There are no videos on YT that actually have a meaningful display of the ammo, pretty much clips of people shooting it, or just talking about it (no jelly, no chrono). It's possibly a good option for suppressors, due to its lower velocity. You'd have a unique test in your library :)
Your channel is the best testing channel I've seen. You keep it consistent and fair for every ammo you test.
Appreciate that!😎👊
Back in the day, the military and the FBI used to test ammo using pig carcasses. Messy but more analogous to a human body than "gel". Another great video, bro!
Thank you sir.😎👊
I have noticed a very interesting trend. A lot if not most of the high-performance rounds you test work far better in the shorter barrels at slower velocities than they are supposed to. Like in this test, the longer barrel at higher velocity fails, but when they are going slower, they work as they should. Why? That is the 50K question. If you look back at a bunch of other rounds in various calibers, you tested previously, this trend seems to be a thing.
This was very odd indeed. I can think of no explanation for the wide difference between the two. 🤔
As for my own personal experience, I'm an old school caster and hand loader. Haven't bought factory ammo in decades. In the 45 Auto, I cast a 200gr RNFP or a 200gr SWC in what's equal to a 20:1 lead/tin bullet. Hard enough to not lead the bore, but soft enough to expand in hogs, coyote, and feral dogs I encounter on my place out in the woods. I've never used gel blocks, but I get enough critters that don't belong here to shoot. 😅
Well, I think it is a bit odd that the same ammo out two different guns had such distinctly different performance. The Winchester Silvertips have always worked well for me over the years. Before you get too worked up because the rounds from the RIA 1911 failed to expand, consider the effect of a .451 diameter hole being punched through a bad guy's body. Plenty of folks have assumed room temperature because of an encounter with an old fashioned 230 grain FMJ projectile. Sure, I'd be happier if they had expanded fully like the rounds from the Glock. But I'm not about to go unload the magazine in my .45ACP CCW and change to a different cartridge just because you had two rounds fail to expand in gel. I sure would not want to be hit by one of those rounds fired out of your 1911.
YMMV and all that other happy doody.
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Without the doubt my go to channel to see results of ammo I can find and shoot
As always, thank you for the awesome video! 🎉
Appreciate that, my friend!😎👊
I got a bunch of this during the mid 00's. Still have a lot, but mostly moved onto PMC Starfire 230gr. Glad to know the Silvertips are good too. I think Silvertips in general have always been underrated.
They have been pretty good from most of what I've tested.
What’s the barrel twist rate? Think maybe one has more causing easier expansion?
Love your channel man!! Good work!
I’d wonder if the twist rate on the 1911 is slower.
Possibly
That's a weird one! My first thought was maybe the twist rate was different but from limited info available it looks like they're the same. Some 1911's have left hand twist (dont know about rock island) but that shouldn't matter in theory. So...I got nothin! Great test as always
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That one is a bit of a conundrum. Normally it 5” barrels that are needed to push the velocity needed for HP expansion in 45 ACP … I can’t recall seeing these results! I will be sticking with my Underwood 230gr +P for now! Thanks for the video
Happy Sunday brother!
Thank you sir. You too!😎👊
Happy Father's Day!
I think the polygonal rifling of the glock had a effect on the bullet where the standard rifling had a different effect on the bullet the polygonal rifling on glocks and hk pistols are known for higher pressures and good performance. Besides that i cant think of why a short barrel would do better than a longer barrel. Maybe do a test of the different barrel rifling between polygonal and standard rifling. 185 grains is perfect hp weight for a 45 to expand because of the higher speeds compared to a 200 or 230 grain bullet.
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Was this 30 a gen 4 or a new Marksman barrel gen 5? I know Glock USA 🇺🇸 revised the barrels & new Glock 30s 21s came out around 2yr ago. I own a used Glock 41 .45acp gen 4. I added a new KKM match barrel. I rarely shoot or carry it.
If you look at the video at starting .51 seconds of the ammo intro you can see his glock 30 on the table with no front cocking serrations on the slide so it’s definitly an older model that doesnt have the updated marksman barrel and he doesn’t mention any barrel change 👍🏻
That's weirder than a Sasquatch & Nessie wedding invitation. I don't know what to think about this stuff now 🤔.
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Maybe it's specifically made for shorter barrels.😂
Darn fascinating test thanks Tools!
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That was a crazy test with crazy results, thanks brother
Yes it was.
I have never understood why so many ammo manufacturers seem to treat their test barrel lengths as a proprietary secret. Why do they do that? No reason I can think of...
I hate it.
A smart firm would T&E rounds with a 5" barrel .45acp and for a solid idea of performance, a ccw size 3". I myself think the min for a carry or duty .45acp is 4". The big heavy .45 bullet needs to expand, punch out 🥊 . This is why Colt sold 1000s of 1911 style SAO Cdrs. 1960s 1970s 1980s.
Definitely an odd result! Need to revisit this test with a G41 for the long barrel and a 3” 1911. If you get the same results maybe try a bare gel test just to see if the extra velocity out of the longer barrel is packing the cloth into the cavity tighter and it just cant clear it out. Maybe the shorter barrel with less velocity doesn’t pack so tight into the hollow point so it’s able to clear it. Would be an interesting test just to find out what might be going on.
Good video.
Those two pistols have different rifling. I wonder if that changes things.
The original Silvertip pistol bullets had an aluminum jackets. They were changed to copper and plated. I think the 32 ACP still has the aluminum jacket.
So use the shorter barrel for hunting werewolves 🐺? Odd results but makes me think commander size/4.25in might be a happy medium. Velocity was higher than I expected but recoil didnt look bad at all. I may buy/if on sale for the Commander to check out. Interesting video. Good video!👍🙏
I have a G 30 so I will be getting some of this stuff
This looks like good stuff for my short-barrel and my revolver.
Mhmm
Looks like i found my self defense ammo for my Magnum Research USS1911. Thank you for doing the research
Ive got a RIA 1911 in 9mm, only bc i enjoy shooting a 1911 occasionally. Not sure why the reason for this weirdness, but ill add it to the list if the reasons my glocks and berettas are the only GTW guns i would trust...could be a fluke but im not willing to trust it. Great stuff as always my brotha. Solid info.
Can't figure that out. Thanks for testing.
Me either 🤷♂️
All I can think is that on the higher velocity shots, the higher velocity enabled a cleaner cookie cutter action on the denim, clogging the hollow point, while maybe on the G30, the lower velocity pushed through the denim instead of filling up the hollow point. I'm guessing you would get full expansion on both without the clothing barrier. Except when you examine the rounds there isn't any clothing wadded in the 5" barrel rounds!
Something tells me that you and I would’ve had fun, if we met in my younger days.
Thanks for the info. I subscribed a few months ago.
Appreciate that!😎👊
Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P JHP
Federal HST 124gr
Those are my go too’s for .45AARP but then I carried full size pistols… cause I don’t care if I print.
Moved away from .45acp due to poor barrier penetration and low capacity for the vast majority of pistols. FN tactical being the exception.
A 5" barrel .45ACP is too big for me to carry concealed anyway. So very rare and unusual for a defensive round to perform better out of a shorter barrel. I'll take it.
I'd like to see how this stuff would perform out of a 4.25" Commander. Your results are perplexing for sure. Thank you for all your hard work and great info!
Maybe the Glock polygonal rifling helped to disrupt the jacketing and aid in the expansion from the G30?
Just bought a gen5 G30, this is exactly what I needed. Thank you!
45 super can be fired from HK USP w/o modification. Buffalo bore 185 grain will throw you for a loop when tested in ballistic gel. You will see what i mean.
I've got some of the old silvertip in 44. Still a couple of boxes in the stash. They expand out of 44 spl. not full mushroom but they are a wicked projo. Truly evil in mag loads. Old means from the late 80s old.
Wow! I never would have predicted that the hollow points from the shorter barrel would have the greater expansion. That is a puzzler.
My thought when you too the second shot with the 5” was… what are the chances that they found the perfect threshold of all the criteria for 4” concealed pistols… as you continued and my thought became reality. Outstanding brother! Thank you!👍🏼
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Could be these: Bullety tip filled and did not create expansion force. Not most likely. The other two could relate to twist rate and/or depth of rifling cuts? I shot the old Sivertips through a Detonic's Combat Master with a 3.5" brl which always expanded to .570-.575". My gov't 1911 didn't expand reliably, but did not fail 100% of the time. So, who knows? Good testing anyway. Keep 'em coming and I'll keep watching 'em.
Mine are old silvertips, jacket separation on impact, the new ones has better performance, no jacket separation
Hey Tools,try that same ammo in your dad’s Colt 3.5.I bet it will do good.
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Another great test. I love the sound of that echo through those beautiful hills! Hey, I was thinking during the strange results you were getting, do you think a different barrel twist would do that?
Thank you sir. Your guess is as good as mine.🤷♂️
Rifling style and twist rate have a dramatic affect on terminal ballistics.
I would like to see these silver tips in the G30 and a G21. Then barrel length would be only variable.
I’ve seen other tests where .45 expands fine at a given velocity but expands very poorly at higher velocity. Military Arms Channel did one a while ago where that happened.
Just when you think you got it all figured out, sometimes you get thrown a curveball. Most of the time it's more speed needed for expansion, this was a strange one. Such a narrow window for good performance from short barrel to the 5" 🤔 Have a good one brother see you on the next one.
Doing some carving on those hollow points could make those hollow points expand.
I just picked up the Springfield XDM-Elite compact in .45acp with the 3.8" barrel over the father's day weekend sale from PSA, looks like this ammo would work great in this pistol.
Possibly barrel twist difference. Maybe not enough rotation out of the RIA.
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Depends on the gun. I had a little revolver that wouldn’t shoot for shit until I got some 110gn Silvertip 38 Specials then it shot decent groups and to POA
Looks made for the G30, the Shield, and other short barreled. 45s.
The only diffference i can see is the rifling on the two guns.Maybe the conventional rifling ,by the way it imprints on the bullets it prohibits them from expanding? That's a head scratcher ,for sure.
I think it's just 2 much clothing sometimes clogging the hollow point. Cool video though. I've shot a doe with a .45 colt silvertip, and it got great expansion.
Nice I’ll have to pick some up for my shield and see what it’s got
Polygonal rifling vs lands and grooves rifling maybe?
That’s unexpected! With factory new name brand ammo, I can’t remember any of my own tests that didn’t show the increased expansion and usually less penetration with the longer barrel. That is why the tests are so important. Assumptions just don’t always equal the results irl. Definitely wouldn’t trust these even in the G30s just due to the odd results.
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Love 45 tests. Strange one this time. Like you I was betting the RIA 5inch was going to be awesome. Nope. Interesting for sure.
Weird. These results might be worth a call to Winchester. Awesome, and strange, test.
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True amazing performance from the shorty. Now you have my curiosity piqued about the Commander length 🤔 My thought on the difference is perhaps the higher velocity caused it to destabilize just enough to not hit the gel at the same angle. Or perhaps the rotational speeds were different.
Either way, great test, Tools 🎉 if I had a G30 I would use these. Maybe Commander, too.
I made the suggestion one time that maybe on some fails put another one in the gel, and was promptly told, absolutely not a fail is a fail! I'm not one to argue good logic. Don't understand how this happens and I will never trust agin unless I see gun specific results performance
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I passed Trader Vic’s and the werewolf was giggling. 🔫💨🍮👑🛠️
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It's not really silver. False advertising, It will get you killed in a werewolf encounter.
Smart bullets werewolf's..sprit walkers ..vampires all different consistency😎
Around the 12 minute mark you start calling the Rock Island 1911 "The G17". I know what you are talking about but I figured that you would want to know so that you can make the corrections.
I put notes on the screen. There is no correcting once it's uploaded. All you can do is delete sections.
I may be mis-remembering, but seems to me the old Silvertip ammo was also plain brass cased and loaded to maximum pressure/velocity. Not +P, but it was definitely full power stuff. It was good defensive ammo in its day, but I think modern bullets like Federal's HST, Speer's Gold Dot, and Winchester's Ranger-T are better.
Awesome test. I run a g30 and normally use 200grn lrn because i dont need expansion, but these might be a good option.
Once again, the indication of consistent quality manufacture is ES and SD, and this did excellent/outstanding.
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Hey Tools am about to get me a little 327 magnum and wanted your opinion on how it handles. This was a very nice test very interesting results. Stay safe out there my man.
Thanks for all of your videos. You give some of the best assessments of different ammunitions that I've ever seen. I am curious, where are you located
My best guess for why the faster bullets failed to expand would be that maybe that extra velocity caused them to clog, whereas the slower rounds pierced through without clogging because the cloth had slightly more time to give way. Nothing was clogged in the weighing/measuring segment, so perhaps the cloth was shed earlier in the gel. Just a wild guess.
Possible 😎
Rock Island is a budget firearm. Perhaps, the rifling is off and the bullet is not spinning fast enough . I believe it would be worthwhile to use a higher quality long barrel and retest.
You people and your "use a high quality gun."😂 The cope is too real.
Maybe try a commander. I would use them in my defender size. If you get expansion in a commander I would use them too. I am a .45 guy. After all of your testing I pretty much use ball, because they all fall. Thanks for all this information.
I am baffled on the results