@@snickerpoodles It wasn't really cheating, since Snowfur was already dead (it was still abuse, though, don't mistake this for me trying to justify this abomination).
@@foolishfool1963 Oh. Heh, yeah. I've never read Bluestar's Prophecy or Spottedleaf's Heart. Or any super edition for that matter So I didn't know that this happened after Snowfur's death. But yeah, Thistleclaw is an abomination and I say he pretty much deserves to be in the Dark Forest.
Basically Thistleclaw ruins Spottedleaf's life, Tigerclaws life, Bluestars life, and Bluestar's kits (Mistyfoot and Stonefur's) life, and the life of everyone who has to read about him.
And because of him ruining tigerclaws life he indirectly ruins everybody’s life that he too ruins and so on. Technically this makes Thistleclaw the reason that 1. Tigerstar came to power 2. The Dark Forest attacked the living cats
Sadly, that happens when children are abused in private. That and typically the abuser is smart and knows to make the victim think nobody will believe them.
@@MelonTartVA yep, it's 100% not her fault for keeping quiet about it. If they'd shown her eventually deciding to tell someone and realising that's what she should've done all along it could've helped any number of kids. The fact that she doesn't is, imo, the biggest problem- not with her character, but with this book.
@@wiredwest7171 I don't know,I guess it's because every cat she knew was so mean and evil to her that if you were her you would probably do the same thing.
Who is Daniel Howell Robin and Amelie The Warrior Cats series is basically personified cats, so they behave a lot like people (a bit of a mix between wild and modern people) except with cat instincts. So in this case you CAN compare cats with people because the cats are supposed to be easy to relate to, which is why Thistleclaw's actions are so bad.
"How about Spottedleaf's Manipulated Heart?" Erins: Too long, but I like the idea. "Spottedleaf's Manipulated? The apostrophe can be a contraction instead of possessive." Erins: Nah, wrong word. "...Spottedleaf's Heart?" Erins: There we go.
"You're much more mature for your age/ I'll wait for you/ You'll grow up" is the ULTIMATE grooming tactic by older people preying on on the young and impressionable
honestly if i had read this book when i was being abused by a man who, by the way, acted *very* similarily towards me as thistleclaw does to spottedpaw in the book, i wouldve felt even more discouraged to speak out and tell someone. it shouldve been written in a way in which spottedpaw was taught she was being treated wrong and it wasnt her fault, maybe by thrushpelt or even bluefur? and thistleclaw was punished accordingly (banished hopefully, tbh) for romanticizing her like this. this is a book series directed towards children. if your kids book is going to cover grooming and such material, you have an *obligation* to make sure its not teaching kids the wrong things. idk.
You were abused by a man? That's awful! I am a strong feminist and I hate when people (I'm not assuming you're female, I simply hate abusive guys), but especially women are abused by men. I hope you're okay now, and I will gladly sucker punch any guy who dares hurt a defenseless person.
What makes this book darker is that many moons later, Spottedleaf goes on to fall for a cat young enough to be her son: Firepaw, the same way Thistleclaw did with her. You hit all of the problem points dead on, Moonkitti. The problem with this book wasn’t the age gap. We’ve seen some age gaps before, the craziest being Blossomfall and Thornclaw & Pinestar and Leopardfoot, who is older than both of her parents. But Thornclaw and Pinestar weren’t padding after their respective mates when they were barely more than kits. That’s what makes it disturbing in Spottedleaf’s Heart. Thistleclaw took a romantic interest in a child. May I also mention that this is the ONLY book with a warning on the official warriors wikia, whereas other books like Darkest Hour show graphic scenes of cats being killed. This book gets so disturbingly accurate at points, I can’t even describe. People who were groomed like this at a young age is like rereading what their lives were like at a certain point. Now I know, there’s gonna be people talking about “well they’re cats and cats don’t care about age” While that may be true in real life, cats in these books are very humanized.
I totally agree with you. However, Spottedleaf did not end up manipulating firepaw, in fact firepaw seemed more attracted to Spottedleaf. For her, she romantically liked Firepaw, but did not act upon it.
I agree, but when Spottedleaf died she would've been around her mid 20's in human years, Firepaw was around 15 - 18 so there wasn't a big age gap, Spottedleaf never manipulated him, she just had a crush on him & Firepaw seemed to be attracted to her, she just stuck to him like glue after she died, which is what most people do when they love someone: they stay with them for as long as they can.
You know what's especially sad? If the Hunters had portrayed pedophilia correctly, they could have saved _thousands_ of children. I'm not even exaggerating. Think about it: Warriors is such a popular series, especially among kids. Imagine how many more children in the world would escape close calls with pedophiles if a book they enjoyed so much laid it out for them clearly: "Hey. See this? This isn't normal. If something like this is happening to you, tell a trusted adult."
The writers are unfortunately very stupid so they won't. There's a million things they could done better with warrior cats but no, they just don't care. This is sad
That kind of funny, because reviews like this actually did save me from a child predator. More children would have been saved, but it it still indirectly saved me
@@0quamarin3I don’t really agree with a book being the entire fault with you being groomed. As yes, it played a part in your thoughts, I don’t think it is the authors fault.
I can't believe people compare Dustpelt and Ferncloud to Thistleclaw and Spottedpaw. Dustpelt never manipulated, took advantage of, or groomed Ferncloud like Thistleclaw did to Spottedpaw. It makes me sad to see Dustpelt get thrown into the same pile as Thistleclaw when he very clearly isn't a bad guy.
Y O I N K I agree. Dustpelt truly did love Ferncloud, even though she was younger, and he HATED Darkstripe for trying to kill Sorrelkit and all around scaring Fern. He cared about her wellbeing, mental state, and always wanted to make her feel loved and happy. Thistleclaw was a creep and was upright insane. He was preying upon what the clan sees as a young child/teenager, and Spottedpaw was so trusting- she had no clue about what the heck was going on. When I saw the title: Spottedleaf’s Heart I assumed it would cover her side of the Spottedfire relationship, seeing that Firestar’s warrior name was Fire(heart). I was wrong, and for me, it seemed very hard to see as a good story, and very disturbing. The general plot is disturbing, and I thank Moonkitti for not treating something that level of violating as a joke.
Just FYI Cassandra was a character in Greek Mythology whom Apollo cursed with having the gift of predicting the future; but no one will ever believe her predictions. (Goosefeather is very similar)
I infered that because I remember a book with a main character's name called Cassandra and she kinda predicted the future (I forgot what book it was but it's targeted towards grades 4-7 lol... I was in 6th grade when I read it though, that was 3 years ago)
I know it's a children's book, but when Thistleclaw told her to meet him alone at night without telling anyone I got legitimately terrified of what was going to happen anyway
Agreed. We all know the implications. Thank *whatever diety or lack thereof that the person reading this comment believes in* that Spottedleaf ran from the situation.
@@lollivee6770 I agree. Having Thistleclaw train in the dark forest is reason enough to put him in the dark forest, but having him manipulate a child is just horrifying and it bothers me so much that Spottedpaw didn't think to talk to anyone about Thistleclaw.
I actually see a wasted potential in spottedleaf's heart, the thing is that child-molesters and child-groomers do exist and sadly aren't a rare occurrence, people shy away from such subjects and that's just not ok, you need to warn children that such bad people do exist, therefore if only the book was worded differently, in a way that it would been educational, that would have been great.
Mapleheart I agree. These sort of things should be exposed to children, in order to teach them how to recognize this behavior and what to do about it. This book didn't sufficiently portray that grooming is bad and what a potential victim should do about it. It's a huge lost opportunity.
They should actually put this out in young adults in school libraries, they talked about sexual assault (aka rape but its more pg because it was 4th grade) so why the hell not put Spottedleaf’s heart in young adults? (Atleast in my school they talked about rape) If they dont have a disclaimer in the prologue for ‘disturbing elements’ in Spottedleaf’s heart then well...
Mapleheart agreed. I would love to make a book, tv show, or even a movie targeting children that would teach kids how horrid some people are. And how to learn if you could REALLY trust someone. i refused to even read this book beacuse of certain people telling me how horrible it was.
Yeah, they should *teach this is schools* I haven’t even heard a peep from my teacher about this. Every child should know this. We don’t want children getting r*ped by a person who was being “nice”! Every child should, when it is a adult who isn’t their parent, think of they are being to kind or something if this person is gonna do the things they did to Spotted’Leaf
Normally I would joke about how moonkitti is serious for once, but it's all true. It's scary when you are manipulated, especially when it's child manipulation and you are being manipulated by someone you trust and thought was trustworthy enough to not do something as horrible and scary as this, especially when someone is being sketchy like Thistleclaw when he told her to meet him at midnight without telling anyone and without context where they were going.
And when you think about it, Thistleclaw taking Spottedleaf to the dark forest is a metaphor for something really dark..... Thank God she ran when she realized where she was.
Alternate writing: Thrushpelt, being the perfect bean he is, pieces together what is happening and explains to Spottedpaw what’s wrong with the situation and that he would protect her if Thistleclaw reacted poorly to her standing up for herself. Thrushpelt takes it upon himself to confront Thistleclaw, as well as letting Sunstar know about the situation. In a tragic twist, this alerts Sunstar to Thistleclaw’s nature and dissuades him from choosing him as deputy. However, by this point, Bluefur has had her kits and makes the decision to give them up, unaware about the scenario that has already gone down. Spottedpaw, too embarrassed and hurt by everything to tell the truth, helps her as best as she can with the kits and vows to protect her clan as she had been protected by Thrushpelt. However, the story then potentially ends with Thistleclaw attacking Thrushpelt when out training, and the two mortally wound each other. Thistleclaw is left bleeding out on the RiverClan border, and Thrushpelt asks Spottedpaw and Bluefur to hide the nature of his death as well. “Just tell them I died a warrior.” Idk, I just wanted more closure to Thistleclaw and Thrushpelt’s passings than “eh greencough and a border dispute work fine”
I know I'm a year late, but I would LOVE THIS as the end (or... near end) of the book, it would make the fact that the relationship was bad much more clear
You know how Snowfur fell in love with him because he was always "so nice to her"? I wonder how much she was potentially manipulated behind the scenes as well.
Thanks for taking this seriously and addressing it, since so many people asked. While yes I see people using the defense, actual cats this age it may be fine, the characters in the books are heavily anthropomorphized. (I know I've said the 'they're just cats' line myself, but more I think on it. No they aren't written that way.) She's clearly portrayed as a young naive child/teen and he is an adult. If she were older/already a warrior and they used a similar plot, it would have been different. (Example, I think Pinestar and Leopardfoot? She was much younger than him but they didn't have any romance until she was Leopardfoot, not Leopardpaw. Correct me if I'm wrong) I still don't think I would have been a fan, personally but yeah. But the other two novellas were good though, I agree! I'd like more DotC stories.
Not to mention, humans start to reach sexual maturity (which is defined as the age an animal becomes physically capable of reproducing) anywhere between the ages of 12 to 15 during the onset of puberty. Sexual maturity does not equal mental maturity, nor does it mean that someone, human or otherwise, is a full-grown adult. New apprentices in the warriors series don't act like fully mature, rational adults either. They act like young teenagers, often being impulsive and immature, lacking foresight in their choices and actions. The argument "it's okay because cats are sexually mature at 6 months old" doesn't hold any water in light of these facts, and it seriously bothers me when people use this argument to defend this aspect of the story.
Yeah, a similar thing goes for Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight-- he was her flipping substitute mentor but they weren't really in a relationship back then.
Thank you, and I agree. Many teens who think they are ready for stuff like this ARENT, because mentally they are not ready, and may not be ready for a long time. I also don’t get why people hate pine star and leopard foot together, yeah, there is an age gap, but pine star waited until she was a warrior and by then she was an adult and could make her own decisions and was mentally able to cope with it, (I know people with parents who have an over 10 year age gap). So it was an ok relationship, thistle X spotted was clearly pedophillia and child grooming and was a terrible thing to happen (and it was confirmed to be pedophillic be the Erin’s so yeah)
I feel that the "they're just cats" excuse can apply to some situations but not others, when it comes to issues like pedophilia it can't be used due to the nature of their adult and child personalities, but with issues like incest between distant cousins (not characters who consider themselves kin or are closely related) I think the cat excuse works since the two cats don't have a personal family connection and in the wild inbreeding is common. Most couples in Warriors aren't so closely related to be considered incest, however I do kind of have a problem with Ivypool and Fernsong because half the series is about a prophecy based on her sister being related to his dad and they're directly descended from another main character, Firestar (or I guess Jake since Ivypool is descended from Princess)
"Cats are sexually mature at six moons" So? The way cats are anthropomorphized, they are like humans, with human emotions and thoughts. Most girls are sexually mature (or at least able to get pregnant) at age 12, some even get it at 9. Anyways, the books never mention cats being sexually mature for obvious reasons. The way I see it, becoming a warrior indicates you have matured enough to make your own choices and not be taught anymore. The book could have gone so many different routes, Thistleclaw telling Whitepaw to manipulate Spottedpaw, or maybe just not including Thistleclaw at all. I was really excited to buy this book, but I haven't bought it get simply because this book disgusted me and I just didn't want to buy it.
A lot of people here are saying that Spottedleaf did the same thing to Firepaw, Dustpelt did the same to Fernpaw, Crookedjaw did the same thing to Willowpaw, etc. But I can’t see it. None of the pairs listed above did anything similar to what Thistleclaw did. One, Dustpelt didn’t even bring up being mates until Ferncloud was a Warrior, Crookedjaw was less than six moons older than Willowpaw, and Spottedleaf didn’t even bring up her crush until after she was dead. Thistleclaw was trying to get Spottedpaw to be his mate while she was still in the nursery. There’s a giant difference between that and a ~20 year old having a crush on a ~16 year old and never bringing said crush up. Honestly, it disgusts me how people are pointing to these other, healthy relationships (not counting Spottedleaf’s crush) and saying that Thistleclaw was doing the same thing. Spottedpaw was younger than his son, ffs. It’s disgusting.
Exactly! Most people only pay attention to the age gap, but this situation is completely different. It's creepy and uncomfortable thinking about the peculiar way Thistleclaw treated Spottedleaf.
@@Wolfst0rm well it is still ironic how Ferncloud was younger than Silverstream when she gave birth and survived (considering Silverstream was too young I guess idk)
@@Wolfst0rm She had to be pregnant before a warrior because she have birth only 1 book after the darkest hour so yeah, her and dustpelt mated when she was only an apprentice
I never thought of Thistleclaw of a evil cat, rather a very ambitious cat and I liked his character. Now I hate him. Also it doesn't seem like him at all. As well as many other characters in this book, Thistleclaw doesn't really seem to be acting in a way I would think he'd act and it's very disappointing.
I think the Erins did it so we would like Bluestar more and hate Thistleclaw and think the ship between his actual not a child mate is bad. (Ehem Snowfur.)
@@astronic9979 I think the Erins originally intended for the story to be a warning of abuse/grooming. But they handled it all wrong. While it's true that abusers typically make their victims think nobody would believe them, hiding from the problem until it goes away is not always a viable option.
Wow… I uh never expected a children’s book to have such dark themes Edit: I wrote this two years ago and suddenly this comment as exploded. The only reason why I'm confused is because when I was in primary school, kids as young as 8 were allowed to read Warriors. I hope you understand why I was confused ^^
They actually take another themes but indirectly like mental illness (Through Bluestar) Unwanted pregnancy (Lizardstripe) Homosexuality (Barley and Ravenpaw) Religion (Starclan) Faith Lost (Mothwing, Bluestar, Cloudtail) Depression (Briarlight) and etc
I'm sure some of you guys saw the video I made on this, and I got constant comments about how cats are sexually mature to the point where I almost thought my video was wrong. But this has made me agree with my own point all over again. If these cats can have political systems they are anthropomorphised enough to have inappropriate relationships. I agree with EVERY point you made and I wish I’d expressed them better in my video.
WolfSword87 yeah, it's not "just cats", it's a book about humanlike cats made for humans to read and relate to. Warriors isn't meant to be super realistic lmao
but. cats literally reach sexual maturity at 6 months old. they're still cats. this is more a story of a toxic relationship and blatant manipulation than underage dating.
I hate spotted x thistle for many reasons. One is the age Gap, another is manipulation, the dark forest part,and finally the fact snowfur should have been thistleclaws only mate, aside from the fact I think thisleclaw didn't deserve a mate
"But Thistleclaw wasn't an evil cat." "But Bluefur shouldn't have been deputy and Thistleclaw wouldn't have been a bad deputy." "But Thistleclaw wasn't really bad until after Bluefur became deputy." "But we should defend Thistleclaw." This is so disgusting. I always thought it was the Thistleclaw-manipulating-Spottedpaw part of the book that was gross and not the age gap. I'm glad you actually took the time to do this.
a lot of the people defending thistleclaw don't consider this book as canon i saw thistleclaw originally as a cat stuck in grief and although he would have been an awful leader/deputy i don't think he was an "evil" character and sure as hell didnt deserve to go to kitty hell, especially if ashfur didn't i mean none of his actions are excused but you can sympathize with him and it makes him overall an interesting character but this book would totally change that if i saw that as a canon thistleclaw just seemed very out of place and the whole story line seemed out of nowhere so me and many others defending thistleclaw don't see it as canon if it did he would totally deserve to go to kitty hell like outright i dont care if he was fucking firestar that shits disgusting sorry for talking your ear off but oml don't think all thistleclaw supporters support this adult/child shit and all that manipulation and just.. ew. haha anyways have a nice day/night man
8oltdha This book was clearly made from the hatred at the bottom of Vicky's heart. I absolutely loathe Bluestar, mainly because she's painted to be the greatest cat ever, but she's so rotten.
One argument I've seen to defend the story is that cats are fully mature at 6 months, so it's okay. The problem with that is Spottedleaf is present as a child or teenage character. Children are reading this and are meant to relate to Spottedleaf.
StormBerryMC another problem with that is that I got my period at 13 - which means I was sexually mature at 13. Would it be okay for a 30 year old human Thistleclaw to get with 13 year old me because I was sexually mature? No, absolutely not! And it's the same with Spottedpaw
StormBerryMC Yeah, I honestly don't know what the Erins were thinking; kids being like: "Oh, Spottedpaw liked an old guy, and got tricked by this child predator. OOHH HASHTAG RELATABLE!" The Erins really need to step up their game.
People who say that seem to have a fair point until you realise that these are cats living in an organised society with traditions, mythology, language, ranks, an education system, games and religion. These cats are not real. They behave like us. They live in a society more similar to ours than we realise which also means that things like this are not okay.
StormBerryMC besides, apprentices are heavily coded to be children/young teenagers. they're immature, childlike in general, and constantly described as being much smaller in size than their mentors. and these are humanized cats in an organized, complex society with universal morals and laws. if they can understand and agree that murder is wrong and harming kits is wrong, then they should understand that a young apprentice being romantically preyed upon by a much older warrior is wrong.
The book itself is NOT BAD, it shows a situation that is real and dangerous and told by the victims point of view which explains many things to outsiders when it comes to this. The problem is that its a still a childrens book series that should have a GIANT NEON SIGN on it that says "If you see this kind of behavior or are victim of it, tell your parents, teacher or anybody who is an adult and you have trust in. Dont be like Spottedpaw who should have told this to Swiftbreeze, Thrushpelt, Bluefur, Featherwhisker or Sunstar." I personally still wonder what Thistleclaw was thinking. "My mate is dead because of her sister, now i will take a much much younger kit and groom her to be my mate!" What a piece of fucking shit. Love how Draikinator interpreted how Snowfur reaction was to all of this. Snowfur is Starclans Big Mama when it comes to kits, being the guardian of Bluefurs kitten, most importantly mosskit, i expect her to be angry and utterly disgust by her former mates actions. So i think him being killed by a River Patrol is, infact, a total lie but the cats couldnt think of anything else when his body was found.
I know how horribly late I am. But Spottedleaf’s Heart would’ve actually been a great book if it was handled better. I think that the people writing the story didn’t take it seriously, and that's what really messed up the entire plotline. If they actually took the time to give the book quality writing, I believe it would’ve turned out much better. Edit: Also, mental health and other serious topics like abuse and manipulation aren’t really spoken about in Warriors. I believe that if they really dwell on it, it would make the books relatable, and even more harsh on the topics of reality.
Agreed. I think it was meant to be a warning to children and young teens about being abused and/or groomed. But it was handled in the completely wrong way.
@@MelonTartVA Right ! The authors made it feel like, "oh, somebody you know, or perhaps a stranger you thought you could trust is doing something to you that you don't like ? And they're telling you not to tell anybody ? Welp, it happens ! Just grow up, you'll get over it." No ? That is *horrible,* and definitely not how the situation should be handled. And obviously, Spottedleaf was young. She didn't know any better. She thought that Thistleclaw was a cat she could trust. But despite that, the book never outright said, "this is bad," or something along those lines.
@@koiiian3994 and we never see Thistleclaw punished for this. Someone could say that him being sent to the Dark Forest is his punishment. But no. Considering the implications of taking her to the dark forest (I'm pretty it's implying statutory before she ran), that's not good enough.
@@MelonTartVA Exactly ! I suppose I can admit that the book had the right idea when attempting to tell teens and/or young adults that having a relationship like Thistleclaw and Spottedleaf is, indeed, bad. They just executed it horribly.
@@koiiian3994 yeah. If I could rewrite this book, I would have her tell Bluefur since I'd make them mentor and apprentice. Bluefur then reports this and has Spottedpaw moved to medicine cat for her own protection. While Spottedpaw is angry, she's comforted by her new mentor and informed that what was happening was not ok. While this is happening, Thistleclaw has fled the clan and the warriors are looking for him. At the end of the book, it's revealed they found his body but he's passed. While Spottedleaf is initially sad, she finally accepts that what was happening between them was not a good thing and that she'll find someone who genuinely cares about her.
@@dagbackerud3247 It still is a terrible thing to do. SpottedPaw should’ve told her mentor or leader, and most likely if she did, then ThistleClaw would’ve been exiled. Just because it is not in the warrior code, it doesn’t mean it is gross as fuck and extremely inappropriate for an adult, in this case ThistleClaw, to do.
I'll be honest: Thistleclaw was one of my favorite villians. He was morally grey, and I always liked that. However, the way he grooms Spottedpaw is so disgusting and wrong that I can't like him anymore, even as a character. Witnessing child grooming and predatory actions happening to some of my best friends in my youth, it just puzzles me why anyone would not try to actively get rid of this book in the production state or at least showing that what Thisleclaw did to Spottedpaw was disgusting and wrong.
I still like thistleclaw it just adds to his psychopathy and his Grey and violent character. Idk I just like really like psychopaths or crazy villains in books I know I’m a bad person
I don't understand why you thought Thistleclaw was grey. Even before this novella, he hadn't any positive aspect. I mean, he is the ONLY cat in the whole serie to NOT have a good reason to behave like that except a full wickedness (or a mental illness).
Oh my God I never read this book but holy shit is that awful. My mouth actually fell open when you talked about all the ways Thistleclaw was manipulating her. Telling her it's Starclan's will that they're together, accusing her of liking someone more than him AND TELLING HER TO MEET HIM ALONE AT NIGHT AND NOT TELL ANYONE. That's 100% predatory behaviour and I'm shocked that this was allowed to be published in a children's series.
Well, I can see it published in a children's series. . . If Thistleclaw was called out on his behavior and punished for it in the same story it happened. We learn from books. Children or those in this sort of situation could have learned how creepy Thistleclaw and the pedo relationship was and how to avoid it--if the authors had handled this plotline as a warning tool. If they, rather than just the commentators, had told their fans why this was wrong and creepy.
I didn't read it because I felt uncomfortable. My mom used the "cats are sexually mature at six months old" thing on me. I've still yet to read it. Also Spottedleaf is my third favorite cat, behind Leafpool and Hollyleaf.
On the other hand Snowfur was already dead, and there were cats in the series with several mates, some with their past mate dead, some having two mates at the same time
I've seen so many people who take pride in ignoring this book or this side of Thistleclaw's character and it honestly worries and disgusts me. We all knew that Thistleclaw is a dark forest cat for a reason. I agree that this type of story should've been presented in a more "in your face" way, so to say, for every reader to understand the seriousness of the situation and how wrong Thistleclaw's actions were. But the same people who understand the situation also ignore that it ever happened only make it worse, I think. Thistleclaw is a child predator and there is no way to escape it. It's a fact and it will always be canon. No one should put their pre-Spottedleaf's heart feelings towards him over the things he's done--no, his character was not ruined, and no, no one should ignore that aspect. I'm glad you're not one of these people. ((Sorry if I don't make much sense I'm not good at explaining things))
! I'm sure that people have their own reasons when ignoring this book, but how I see it, it's people putting aside the pedophilia and acting as if it didn't happen--it's just wrong. Spottedleaf is a victim, and even though she's fictional and this whole story is just that, it's a sad reflection of real life. Child abuse should not be ignored
Honestly my reason for ignoring it is because 1) It was only written by Vicky, none of the Erins or the editorial team had a say in it 2) The novellas are supposed to act as extra "fluff" to the stories and are not good sources of canon information 3) The way Thiselclaw was written was not how he was written in Bluestar's Prophecy; Thiselclaw is supposed to be an arrogant, ambitious, and an "in the moment character" meaning he doesn't think before he acts, but this novella portrays him as a cunning, manipulative, and careful cat. I'm not saying I ever liked him or that I am defending the horrendous acts seen in this book, I'm just saying that I think this novella didn't do a good job as to explaining why he's in the dark forest and could've done much better if it had not been centered around a disgusting manipulative relationship with a really out of character villain.
Yeah. I really should start seeing it as canon and not push it away like I've been doing. The only think that's holding me back is my own experiences that I recently had with one of my oldest childhood friends doing this too me. I guess since I'm a victim who was in denial for a while, it hurts me to know a series that I held dear to my heart pulled this terrible terrible story out. Sorry if this is tmi. I just feel like I had to say this fir my sake. Thank you for opening my eyes.
I love this because it shows that you're not all jokes,but it shows that you care. I would've gone over this topic sooner if I knew this. Thank you for this video.
+Cinders Fire - Yeah that part I was kind of shocked to see something like predatory child stalking happening in Warriors, especially when the book's theme was so obvious that it's almost impossible to not see for older audiences. When I read that line, "meet me tonight, don't tell anyone", I had to put the book down for a minute.
Alpurca you may not know your teachers full history they may or may not have done wrong in the past or may have thoughts of doing something wrong not saying they can't be trusted when you get in trouble and need to see you in the hall but somewhere outside the school environment or where no one will see you I'm not sure if you can trust them no offense you may have known your teacher your whole life for all I know
So I guess we probably know why Thistleclaw went to the dark forest.. Edit: also, I agree, they should’ve totally had Goosefeather point out Thistleclaw’s actions
Or have Spottedleaf tell Bluefur since they seem to have a strong bond (like babysitter and child relationship) and Bluefur takes care of things behind the scenes to not embarrass Spottedleaf as the victim, moving her to Medicine Cat apprenticeship to protect her from possibly being attacked by Thistleclaw while on patrol.
I wish I had too (honestly I think Thrushpelt should of noticed it seems more in character for him to notice since he’s our purrfect innocent sunshine boy who cares about everyone. Also I think goosefeather may have tried to point it out but maybe he thought no one would believe him again and maybe he thought he was actually going crazy I think starclan should of definitely told spotted paw since it’s no secret they can spottedleaf became a medicine cat)
I'm glad this was taken in a serious manner. This is a real world situation that has happened to many young teenagers, most on the internet. Who trust these grown men because the young teen believes they "understand them" or some other reasons. Which is why they now teach kids about internet safety in school. A minor can't make the decisions, an adult can and laws are set for a reason. Thank you for making this video. It's a topic that many need to understand.
The more i talked about it the more abusive it sounded. Her fear of thistle whatever his suffix is, him trying to make Spottedleaf a dark forest warrior. I kept talking about it and the more words flew out of my mouth, the worse it sounded.
Honestly I can’t say how much I appreciate moonkitti not making this a joke, stuff like this is dangerous and honestly terrifying. When I was in middle school this topic became more apparent in any “safety talk” you could call it. So growing up this was definitely one of my worst fears. This is one of the reasons moonkitti is one of my favorite UA-camrs. She understands the appropriate time to make jokes and when not to. Thank you for all your great content, your amazing moonkitti! 💕
people shouldnt use cat's ages as an excuse for spottedxthistle. Yes, while cats are sexually matured at the age of 6 months (when a kit is made into an apprentice), warriors is different. In warriors, cats open their eyes after like 2 days of being born??? female cats would be 24/7 pregnant in real life?? these cats have a society, medicine and RULES. Lets also not forget the fact that these characters are *fictional*. In a *fictional world* even cats can live by rules, rules that dont allow pedophilia. Thanks for not joking abt this subject, because im sure that Victoria Holems didnt intend promoting pedophilia and such these things also uhh spotty helped bluestar sneak out of camp with her kits??? i dont remember this being mentioned in bluestar's prophecy lmao?
I also find the "cats mature at six months" argument stupid, beacause humans can mature to adults (biologicaly) at age twelve. And warriors are basically humans, mentally and socially. Sorry I just wanted to throw my two cents.
I think SH was written after BP so it was a retcon (am I using that right?) cuz I love BP and Ik spotted didn’t sneak blue out Also i haven’t read the book but thistleclaw is disgusting. Especially since spotted is a rebound from his dead wife (snowfur)
THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THIS UP! I could hardly get through the book because I was completely disturbed by Thistleclaw’s behavior, kind of like the feeling when everything’s normal but there is tense music in the background. It’s portrayed innocently but you know something, or in this case everything is wrong. I remember I told my friend about the book in a similar way but she responded with: “But they’re cats, they’re sexually mature” while that may be true in nature, it’s not okay in a *childrens* book with cats that basically act like humans. I feel like if the author knew full well what they were writing, they should’ve made a point, a message to young readers that this kind of thing is wrong. Not because they train in the Dark Forest, but because they are quite obviously manipulating a child. Even something as simple as Spottedpaw telling somebody and them helping her out or anything that sends a good message would have at least brought something good and healthy to the children reading. I don’t know who wrote the book out of the team, but it would be nice to have some insight on what they intended with this storyline.
Yes, cats are sexually mature at the apprentice age. But humans are sexually mature at 12-14 years of age and capable of reproduction, through puberty. Spottedpaw is the equivalent of a 13-14 year old. Of course, that's still disgusting.
When i was younger I used to play video games on a dusty console, I was "friends" with a 32 year old man. He said things like "you're so mature for your age" and "you're my best friend, we should be closer." Knowing full well I was a CHILD. He was the thistleclaw of my life, and I looked up to him for months. He always told me that I shouldn't tell any adults I was friends with him, when I did tell my older sister [17 at the time] she told him to hang out with people his age, he then threatened to kill us, hurt us, doxx us, etc. He never did but it still makes me anxious around older people, especially men.
this is kind of terrifying when you remember that this book is in elementary school libraries. (all the warriors books were in my school library when I was in 3rd grade) Imagine young children reading this without realizing how wrong this is and being convinced that this is normal.
I used to think Thistleclaw was AMAZING I like his backstory and all. And when I got spottedleaf's heart and thought to read it I just thought it would be about the challenge of becoming a medicine cat. I read the book and now I hate thistleclaw. A book can do a lot to a person ;-;
I didn't touch on this very much in my video on Legends of the Clans because I didn't feel like I could do it justice and I couldn't find a way to succinctly differentiate Thistleclaw's actions from the likes of Crookedjaw or Dustpelt (who are generally not perceived as predatory). Thank you for making this video, as it clearly shows exactly what was wrong and treats the issue with the proper amount of seriousness, as well as pointing out how this story was not presented in the right way by the writers.
I feel like with Dustpelt, the difference is that he didn't make any romantic moves until after she was a warrior. Like he may have crushed on her, but he didn't do anything about it or try to convince her to be his mate until after she was a warrior. Obviously Ferncloud felt the same way, but still, Dustpelt gave her her childhood before he expressed his interest.
Exactly. While Crookedjaw was older, he wasn't THAT much older, and he clearly showed her a lot of respect that Thistleclaw didn't. Heck, when Willowbreeze died, Crookedjaw never took another mate. He was with her again in StarClan. He had no intent to manipulate her; he LOVED her.
The only really comparable age gap relationship is Bramblestar and Squirrelstar. Bramblestar(claw at the time) starting acting romantically towards Squirrelpaw during the great journey, and as you may know Squirrelstar was an apprentice during the great journey . He didn't really start to manipulate her until she was a warrior
Also, if you read Bluestar's Prophecy, the plot in Spottedleaf's Heart is wrong. In Spottedleaf's Heart, Spottedleaf is determined to become a warrior, until she has to face a fact that she HAS to become a medicine cat (I'm pretty sure). In Bluestar's Prophecy, Spottedleaf was sooo interested in herbs, that she WANTED to become a medicine cat. I'm pretty sure that this is true, and if you have read both books, you will see my point.
Quiv and in yellowfangs secret featherwhisker mentions her saying something like “I will have a new apprentice in a few moons she has shown interest and has come in my den a few times her name is spottedkit”
I feel like people forget how old Thisteclaw really is. He has a SON that is OLDER than Spottedpaw/leaf! Also, I personally HC that Thistleclaw didn’t get killed by a Riverclan patrol, instead: The warriors of Thunderclan find out what he did to Spottedpaw/leaf and they beat him up
Groomed children (then adults) unless corrected with therapy unfortunately don't realize what they've been groomed to think is wrong and may treat others the way they've been treated without malicious intent. However, Spottedleaf did not even hint at a crush on Firestar until well after her death, and even then encouraged him to be with his peer, Sandstorm.
@@VenomQuill I don't think it's the fact that she was an apprentice while he was a warrior that is the problem, because those don't directly correspond to age. If it's an older apprentice with a warrior that might not be that big of an age gap, but Thistleclaw was manipulating her and grooming her almost since she was born. And he was WAY older than she was. Like literally she was a kit and he was a warrior, she was younger than his son. Spottedleaf didn't do that to Firepaw, she didn't act until he was much older.
@@shadowyzephyr I never said that. I said Spottedleaf never showed signs of being into Firepaw at all until it was "retconned" much later. I also said nothing about an age gap. I said that Spottedleaf could inadvertently show signs of pedophilic behavior without realizing it and definitely without malicious intent because of how she was abused and because she was not given proper psychological help. However, yes, there is a problem between an apprentice and a warrior getting together. A 6-moon-old apprentice is ~10 years old in human years. As a cat, they're still lanky, mostly but not fully adult size, and very lanky like a pre-teen and still have some baby teeth. At 14 moons old, which is about warrior ceremony time (14 moons being ~13 months as a moon is 28 days), they're about 17 years old and fully grown. Tell me a child between the ages of 10 and 17 can be with an adult.
Omg moonkitti you have an amazing point!! This book is a bad role model for children! It makes a lot of sense that you won't want to make this a joke cuz it is very bad! Like it sickens me when I finished the book...
It's not a bad role model cause after reading this, a kid would never be like: "welp, Spottedpaw went through this, so I want to also!" No! If Anything, it helps kids realize that if any adult stranger is trying to love you, he must be like Thistleclaw, and due to this book they know that Thistleclaw is a bad cat.
J - Squad I think they'd be more likely to think "Spottedpaw was also in a relationship with an adult as a child, so as long as he isn't evil I guess this is okay".
Moyer Smith Dude (i use that as a gender neutral term) these are books about cats slaughtering each other, drowning, forcing each other to eat killer berries, death, pain, fear, hunger, anger, and betrayal all around. A couple of curse words don't amount to anything compared to what the Warrior books are about
Good book, bad fans and topic If you think this is bad read Heart of Darkness, it's about an Englishman who got an important post in the African colonies and is basically in denial of everything going on but subconsciously knows exactly what it is
Dominique Martinez I'm actually in the process of typing a comment analyzing how the book itself was good but the fans are making it out to be worse than it actually is and the topics are bad but the Erins didn't screw up and nor is the book just the fan base and topics
This book could have been a great resource for young people to recognize grooming behavior like this if the writers had actually handled it correctly. Just some minor changes would have made it much better. Like the video says, if Spottedpaw had talked to Bluefur and Bluefur then explained how wrong Thistleclaw’s behavior was, it would have been fine.
A major problem (and sad thing) is that this could have been an excellent warning message to children about telling trusted adults when they’re being taken advantage of (like how Thistleclaw manipulated Spottedpaw). UNFORTUNATELY, it isn’t written in a way that portrays that message clearly enough for young readers (like Moonkitti said). We (sadly) NEED books like that, and, though it tries to be, Spottedleaf’s Heart just isn’t one of those books. :(
I feel this book should be read by older fans such as myself and Moonkitti but I digress! Younger audiences are going to read this book and get confused. This is why I encourage anyone who's adult age to recognize this book title, cover and subject matter to talk to your younger Warriors fans who you know! Tell them the answers to questions they may have and assist them that what Thistleclaw is doing is something to be avoided in real life! Teach them to stay safe and approach adult predators with a firm "no"! Teach them the best ways possible how to set boundaries! I'm no expert on childcare or safety but I'm a firm advocate for being against pedophilia! And you kids watching this video, please listen to what us adults have to say as we want to make sure you're safe! Don't go to a stranger or an adult you think is scary! Go to the adults you trust! Parents, teachers, store staff, school staff, your friends' parents, your caregiver, your grandparents or guardians, aunts, uncles, older siblings, older cousins, support workers, therapists, doctors, nurses, the dentist, the police, firemen, your neighbour, advocates such as myself and other Warriors fans who're much older! We all are willing to give you the proper help! Thanks a lot for reading and for Moonkitti to make this video more serious! I hope y'all are having a great day/Halloween/Samhain and stay safe!
Terence van Overdyk Small children are not into books. They're into toys they want and electronics. Kids 13+ (Like Me) are reading these books. I read Into The Wikd and my parents taught me at five years old thw topic of sexual harrasement. Abuse, etc. I'm aware about the topic being gross. I grew up suspicious of all men (And a few women. Men are said to be predators,etc, more than women. Idk) But I grew up with a defense. Someday I'll use it. But this does sicken me. Especially since SpottedPaw trusted him. When I heard ThistleClaw gave her gifts and care and all that, I recognized his actions... It's called Child Grooming. Search it up. It'll give you more information.
NiightWiing I completely agree with you. I wish Spottedleaf's Heart could've been more clear on the whole child abuse thing, if it was, it would've been a great novella.
Oh man thank you so much for discussing this in a mature way... This book was pretty uncomfortable for me to read, and it hurts my head that so many people keep defending it by saying "they are just cats it doesn't matter!!" or something along those lines, it just....It doesn't matter if they are cats, they are anthropomorphized cats with culture and morals and the audience is meant to identify with them as if they were human, so in the context of the story it is still 100% just as wrong...The "cats are sexually mature at that age!!" argument is so bad, like kids can be sexually mature and technically able to reproduce as young as 10 or 11, that doesn't make them adults???? ugh this book was just...so uncomfy. The way it was written, Thistle was only shown as bad because he was training in the dark forest, not because he was flirting up an apprentice. Even after it all happened, Spottedpaw is still mourning over the lost love they could have had if only he hadn't trained there, she never gets to recognize how bad it was. The frustrating thing is, the "romance" didn't even need to be there at all! If Thisteclaw's main flaw was wanting to train in the dark forest with evil cats, then that was the only justification needed for why he deserved to go there after death. The pedo romance could have been taken out ENTIRELY and the book wouldn't need to change much! this whole thing could have been avoided
You are so right. I HATE the argument that “oh no their just cats it’s fine”, it really doesn’t mean they are ready, specially talking bout anthropomorphic cats here. As you said, humans can reproduce as young as 10-13, doesn’t mean they should, or can even be able to cope with mental (and physical since female bodies aren’t really fully built for that yet)
Before the whole scene where Thistleclaw tells Spottedpaw that they're meant to be together and crap, I was honestly confused. I was like, "Wait, are they in love? But Thistleclaw is an adult and Spottedpaw is a child? They're just friends, right? Thistleclaw is supposed to be like a brother or an uncle to Spottedpaw, right?" I always felt that Thistleclaw was suppose to be like an uncle to Spottedpaw before that scene, but the writing suggested otherwise. I feel that if they would've taken out the pedo romance part, then Thistleclaw should've been a good friend. I mean, it would make sense. Like, after losing Snowfur and having Whitekit taken away from him, him hanging out with kits could be justified by saying he was lonely or he was trying to be the father he wasn't able to be. But I guess Thistleclaw had to be a child predator to justify why he went to the dark forest..?
i'm...sorry but there is no world where a 15-16 year old girl is on the same level as a nearly 30 year old man. When was the last time you were around kids that age? They are not adults by any stretch of the imagnation
+Trinity Faye Especially since they're brains are pretty much made up of hormones. "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME MOM AND DAD I'M A THUG IM A REBEL I GOT A BUTTERFLY TATTOO AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW I HAVE A SECRET BOYFRIEND I WENT ON THE DISNEY CHANNEL WEBSITE AND I DIDN'T EVEN GET PARENTAL PERMISSION I'M SO GANGSTA"
Came back to this video after my extensive therapy helped me realized I was groomed. The conversation sparked after reading Spottedleaf's Heart per this video. Thank you Moon.
I honestly *never* knew this story even *existed.* I always thought Thistleclaw was sent to the DF because he was “too brutal” with fights. Nobody ever told me otherwise, and holy fuck, it’s terrifying.
I agree with you on the last part. Maybe Spottedleaf should have gone to her Mentor to explain them, and have her teacher step in. Now THAT would be a CLEAR meaning not to keep it silent, and you should always tell an adult. I say mentor because not all families (kids, not cats), in The world are always there for their kids, who will either ignore their pleads for help or downright just not believe them. Spottleaf could have told one of her mentors what was going on, they could have stepped in, and stopped Thistleclaw. But I think this would also ruin the book if Thistleclaw stayed in the clan after being stopped, because if a real child in real life told someone, they’d be under the impression that predator would still be around them, LIVING with them.
I think you handled the topic incredibly well and your younger audience will learn a lot. As you said, a lot of videos cover the idea of character butchering in Spottedleaf's heart, or the age gap, rather than the points you made in the video. And they were not nearly as calm and informative as you were. Well done.
I've watched this video many times over the years, and every time I'm impressed by how well you explain the story and what the issues are with it. This is a very serious video about a very serious issue and I am so glad that you made this video the way you did. I don't comment on things often, and I don't really know what else to write. Anyway, thank you Moonkitti. Thank you.
Y’know, to lighten this mood, how about I tell you what auto generated captions says these cat’s names are! Spottedleaf: Spotted kid, Spotted Pawn, Spotify(Lmao), Spotted posses, Spotted possitive, Spotted pod, Spotted Beeps (heart), Spotted bow, Spotted leaves(hurt(heart, though she is indeed hurt after this-)) Thistleclaw: Thistle club, This applause, Disel claw, Psychic laws, Thistle clause, Disick law, Tilt this will claw, Thistle clutch, Discipline, This law, Bissel claw, Thistle clogged, Thistle class Thrushpelt: Trush pallets Featherwhisker: Feather whisperer Whitestorm: Wait storm Bluefur: Blue fertel
100% agree with you, this is a creepy thing to have in a children's book and it's crazy they didn't directly address that Thistle's actions toward Spottedkit/paw were bad.
I haven't read warriors in a while but I do think this is an interesting story I love to see dark themes explored in fictional stories especially ones where you dont expect it I haven't read the books myself so I cant form my own opinion on how this is tackled but if a relationship like this isnt really clear cut bad in childrens literature I can see why thats a problem But i suspect bad writting has a lot to do with it Its a shame bc something like this could have been easily used to make children more aware of the tactics used by manipulative adults I think warriors has a lot of problems in general in its writting The cats now are getting very inbred thanks to the no outside cats rule And some of the writting (the mapleshade novella for example) is just downright bad Its a shame they used thistleclaw for this type of plot because i much preferred the moral grey possibility of bluestar only viewing him as bad so she feels justified in pursuing her desire to be leader Him being downright just evil takes away that interesting detail
thank you so much for not making a joke about this one. i was horrified when i read the book, and i dont think i would have been able to cope with it in my life. i am also not going to read the comments, bc i dont want to see any jokes about it in there, either. i love the explaination about child grooming at the end, and yes, i am that sensitive about this book. please no one tease me for it.
I agree, Moonkitti, this is not something to joke about and it happens in real life. i'd day the people who take pride in doing this to children should go to hell, and rot. This is not a joke and the Hunters should've make Thistleclaw's character less.. well, sexually attracted to Spottedkit/paw/leaf. This has to be my least favorite of all the warrior cat novellas as it brings out many sensitive topics. Good explanation, Moonkitti. (btw i suck at explaining to if i sounded bad that's why.)
The most egregious issue with Spottedleaf's Heart is that they don't condemn Thistleclaw's behaviour in a book for primary school children, who are likely to not know what exactly is so wrong with Thistleclaw's behaviour. I agree with you in that Bluefur or Goosefeather could've been a source of advice; perhaps have them overhear a conversation between Thistleclaw and Spottedpaw or something. I don't want to downplay any of that: the main and most serious issue by far with this book is the lack of direct, unambiguous condemnation of Thistleclaw's behaviour. However, I have another issue with the book from a literary standpoint (and, yes, of course this issue is overshadowed by the issues outlined by Moonkitti in the video). They made a morally ambiguous/mysterious character into an unambiguously evil one. I liked the fact that Thistleclaw maybe wasn't completely evil, or that Bluestar might have only been trying to become deputy for her own ambition. The Erins have taken that away because they don't want fans to debate whether or not Thistleclaw should've gone to the Dark Forest, and they wanted an excuse for him to be 100% evil. I wouldn't phrase that as "ruining his character" because that's downright dismissive and disrespectful to victims of child grooming. If someone is found out to be a paedophile, you don't mourn the fact that you liked the paedophile before it came out; you try to support the victim and condemn the paedophile. Being sad about the perpetrator being bad takes the focus away from the loss the victim suffered. Similarly, I don't think there's a loss suffered by Thistleclaw here if we take the book as canon. However, I do wish they had used a different character (perhaps even a new character) to be so predatory-though, of course, it'd be difficult to use a pre-existing character without retconning as this behaviour should lead them to the Dark Forest, and there's only so many ThunderClan cats from this time period who went to the Dark Forest (Thistleclaw being one of them). I think they (the Erins) tried to write a book on a very serious topic, and handled it inelegantly to say the least.
Considering the way they portray Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw as romantic after all these seasons, I don't have faith that the writers can do a good job of writing bad relationships. I haven't read Spottedleaf's book but it sounds like a better writer could have made it more about showing the kid reader hlw grooming can happen and how important it is to tell someone. Regarding Squirrel and Bramble, they have such a long relationship that changes over the years, they could show how something can become unhealthy and you dont have to stay with someone who used to be nice and is no longer good for you. But that's not going to happen, most likely. If it did, the writers will have done better than I expected
I think they could’ve made the story work with just removing the relationship all together and having Thistleclaw be Spottedleaf’s mentor. He could show her the dark forest, make her use the dark forest tactics, be a horrible person without them being in a relationship. Spottedleaf would then completely distance herself from Thirtleclaw, talk to Bluefur about it and realise that she does want to train to be medicine cat.
Warriors community: How is thistleclaw in the dark forest but mudclaw and ashfur are in starclan? Erin’s: Oh shit, they’re right, let’s write a book that ruins thistleclaw so we have an excuse for putting him there
Thistleclaw and his apprentice brutally assaulted a harmless CHILD that did nothing wrong. That should be reason enough to send him to the Dark Forest & it annoys me that so many people defend him for doing so.
@@copicking173 Thistleclaw never did anything actually evil. He was just an ambitious, mean cat. Spottedleaf's heart totally ruined his character. I don't think he should have ever been a main villain, just a slightly evil antagonist. Like Berrynose but meaner. He should have gone to Starclan and have everyone just hate him. He's a foil yet this book completely flipped his character.
@@copicking173 He didn't tho. Tigerpaw did. Thistleclaw was a little evil, but it was an acceptable amount. He was just a big bully for the most part. We needed that, a cat that wasn't completely murderous and evil or good. He seemed like a coward. He wouldn't help you but he'd help the bad guys only to turn chicken shit and run away. That was his character before Spottedleaf's Heart.
It's actually out of character for Bluestar to not be protecting her in this as a child predator victim, as Bluestar/Bluefur definitely would especially since she'd be the most suspicious of Thistleclaw to find something like this out. Perhaps her helping Spottedpaw could've been the reason the two were relatively close as leader and medicine cat in "Into the Wild." I also like to headcanon that Oakheart was partly responsible for the patrol that killed Thistleclaw because of his connection to Bluefur.
When I read this book, I liked it. I felt like it was little peculiar that it was a relationship between a teenage child and a grown man with a son, but I just sort of let that go, and only considered their relationship bad when Thistleclaw started training in the Dark Forest. Then I watched this, and realized that Moonkitti is right. This is creepy, indecent, inapropriate, and bad. You really did spoil it for everyone, and thank goodness you did.
THIS IS A CHILDREN'S SERIES?!?! I always thought it to be a pre teen to adult series considering this very graphic descriptions of violence and among other things
Yessss someone finally hit the nail on the head. The relationship is CREEPY and WRONG. When I was reading, the way Thistleclaw talks is just.... slimy... and gross! The age gap isn't the problem, it's the way the relationship is presented. Its DISTURBING and NOT RIGHT. Thanks for making this video, Moonkitti
We all think Thistleclaw goes to the dark forest because of his lust for battle but what about this? Thistleclaw lies and tries to manipulate an apprentice into being with him. This is why I think he went to the dark forest and he deserved it.
Honestly this is one of the most mature moonkitti video i’ve ever seen. Also if i showed the end of this to my guidance teacher she would totally use this in one of our units
Kinda makes me want to do a rewrite called Spottedleaf's Survival where Bluestar brings attention to the whole situation, helping banish thistle and most of the plot is spottedleafs recovery afterwards and how she and blue change thunderclans culture.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Fun fact: Thistleclaw died fighting an entire Riverclan patrol alone. Goes to show you how many bad decisions you can make in a lifetime
And he cheated on Snowfur with Spotty.
We add to the list.
@@snickerpoodles It wasn't really cheating, since Snowfur was already dead (it was still abuse, though, don't mistake this for me trying to justify this abomination).
@@foolishfool1963 Oh. Heh, yeah. I've never read Bluestar's Prophecy or Spottedleaf's Heart.
Or any super edition for that matter
So I didn't know that this happened after Snowfur's death. But yeah, Thistleclaw is an abomination and I say he pretty much deserves to be in the Dark Forest.
Didnt Redtail kill him?
@@susanwhite444 No. Redtail didn't kill him.
"Why do you hate Thistleclaw?"
*Throws Spottedleaf's Heart in their face*
@@strongfish9179 exactly
EXACTLY
"Two shots of vodka!"
*pours whole bottle*
Thisteclaw isn't in starclan when he dies??
*smothers with multiple pages of thistleclaw being a complete moron*
Ow hey that was uncalled for
Basically Thistleclaw ruins
Spottedleaf's life,
Tigerclaws life,
Bluestars life,
and Bluestar's kits (Mistyfoot and Stonefur's) life,
and the life of everyone who has to read about him.
AND mosskit
And because of him ruining tigerclaws life he indirectly ruins everybody’s life that he too ruins and so on. Technically this makes Thistleclaw the reason that
1. Tigerstar came to power
2. The Dark Forest attacked the living cats
Aitchi Doodle And also the reason that Scourge attacked.
Also ruined Scourge's life, and indirectly turned him into a blood-thirsty alley cat
Not to mention he attempted to get spottedleaf to hecking murder his son.
Another note: Spottedpaw considers telling someone that Thistleclaw is evil, but *doesn't think anyone will believe her.*
She knows Bluestar despises Thistleclaw so like, wtf?
@@suchomimustenerensis it's part of his manipulation. I'm pointing this out because it's similar to real life examples
RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG
Sadly, that happens when children are abused in private. That and typically the abuser is smart and knows to make the victim think nobody will believe them.
@@MelonTartVA yep, it's 100% not her fault for keeping quiet about it.
If they'd shown her eventually deciding to tell someone and realising that's what she should've done all along it could've helped any number of kids. The fact that she doesn't is, imo, the biggest problem- not with her character, but with this book.
Thistleclaw was one of my favorite villains, then I read this book and my entire world view flipped. Mapleshade is my new favorite villain.
Im honestly supriesed on how so many people like mapleshade, like how?
@@wiredwest7171 I guess because of her story where there was no happy ending. Atleast her kits are safe in starclan i guess?
@@wiredwest7171 I don't know,I guess it's because every cat she knew was so mean and evil to her that if you were her you would probably do the same thing.
MapleShade was always my favorite and I never knew about this book because I just wanted to watch this
Friendship ended with Thistleclaw now Mapleshade is my best friend
"Spottedleaf's Child Predator"
Erins: "nawh that's a bad title"
"Spottedleaf's Creepy Relationship"
Erins: "hmmm no"
"Spottedleaf's heart"
Erins: "ya"
Who is Daniel Howell Robin and Amelie The Warrior Cats series is basically personified cats, so they behave a lot like people (a bit of a mix between wild and modern people) except with cat instincts. So in this case you CAN compare cats with people because the cats are supposed to be easy to relate to, which is why Thistleclaw's actions are so bad.
"How about Spottedleaf's Manipulated Heart?"
Erins: Too long, but I like the idea.
"Spottedleaf's Manipulated? The apostrophe can be a contraction instead of possessive."
Erins: Nah, wrong word.
"...Spottedleaf's Heart?"
Erins: There we go.
Jollitea it's called "Spottedleaf's Heart" because she had to follow her heart to make the correct decision
I like Cinder she is the only one who didn't break the code
so tru i mean rlly???
"You're much more mature for your age/ I'll wait for you/ You'll grow up" is the ULTIMATE grooming tactic by older people preying on on the young and impressionable
++++ This forever!! This is important to remember!! This is a textbook red flag!!
Let me write that down
@@yomother8067 you're disgusting. I don't care if this is a joke. This is incredibly inappropriate.
Outdated comment
@@themyofmy i thought they were writing it down as a thing to be cautious about? like 'ill remember that so if it happens to me ill know whats up'?
honestly if i had read this book when i was being abused by a man who, by the way, acted *very* similarily towards me as thistleclaw does to spottedpaw in the book, i wouldve felt even more discouraged to speak out and tell someone. it shouldve been written in a way in which spottedpaw was taught she was being treated wrong and it wasnt her fault, maybe by thrushpelt or even bluefur? and thistleclaw was punished accordingly (banished hopefully, tbh) for romanticizing her like this. this is a book series directed towards children. if your kids book is going to cover grooming and such material, you have an *obligation* to make sure its not teaching kids the wrong things. idk.
I made this 30
Are you okay now?
OMG REALLY?!
You were abused by a man? That's awful! I am a strong feminist and I hate when people (I'm not assuming you're female, I simply hate abusive guys), but especially women are abused by men. I hope you're okay now, and I will gladly sucker punch any guy who dares hurt a defenseless person.
A TEENAGE BOOK
What makes this book darker is that many moons later, Spottedleaf goes on to fall for a cat young enough to be her son: Firepaw, the same way Thistleclaw did with her.
You hit all of the problem points dead on, Moonkitti.
The problem with this book wasn’t the age gap. We’ve seen some age gaps before, the craziest being Blossomfall and Thornclaw & Pinestar and Leopardfoot, who is older than both of her parents. But Thornclaw and Pinestar weren’t padding after their respective mates when they were barely more than kits. That’s what makes it disturbing in Spottedleaf’s Heart. Thistleclaw took a romantic interest in a child.
May I also mention that this is the ONLY book with a warning on the official warriors wikia, whereas other books like Darkest Hour show graphic scenes of cats being killed.
This book gets so disturbingly accurate at points, I can’t even describe. People who were groomed like this at a young age is like rereading what their lives were like at a certain point.
Now I know, there’s gonna be people talking about “well they’re cats and cats don’t care about age”
While that may be true in real life, cats in these books are very humanized.
I totally agree with you. However, Spottedleaf did not end up manipulating firepaw, in fact firepaw seemed more attracted to Spottedleaf. For her, she romantically liked Firepaw, but did not act upon it.
I made this 50
Yes yes ans yes
I agree, but when Spottedleaf died she would've been around her mid 20's in human years, Firepaw was around 15 - 18 so there wasn't a big age gap, Spottedleaf never manipulated him, she just had a crush on him & Firepaw seemed to be attracted to her, she just stuck to him like glue after she died, which is what most people do when they love someone: they stay with them for as long as they can.
Kate states that spotted didnt romantically love firepaw till yellowfang came along
You know what's especially sad? If the Hunters had portrayed pedophilia correctly, they could have saved _thousands_ of children. I'm not even exaggerating. Think about it: Warriors is such a popular series, especially among kids. Imagine how many more children in the world would escape close calls with pedophiles if a book they enjoyed so much laid it out for them clearly: "Hey. See this? This isn't normal. If something like this is happening to you, tell a trusted adult."
That is depressing.
i read this book but ended up getting groomed a year later because i genuinely thought that this was normal, if only it had been written better :/
The writers are unfortunately very stupid so they won't. There's a million things they could done better with warrior cats but no, they just don't care. This is sad
That kind of funny, because reviews like this actually did save me from a child predator. More children would have been saved, but it it still indirectly saved me
@@0quamarin3I don’t really agree with a book being the entire fault with you being groomed. As yes, it played a part in your thoughts, I don’t think it is the authors fault.
I can't believe people compare Dustpelt and Ferncloud to Thistleclaw and Spottedpaw. Dustpelt never manipulated, took advantage of, or groomed Ferncloud like Thistleclaw did to Spottedpaw. It makes me sad to see Dustpelt get thrown into the same pile as Thistleclaw when he very clearly isn't a bad guy.
Y O I N K
I agree. Dustpelt truly did love Ferncloud, even though she was younger, and he HATED Darkstripe for trying to kill Sorrelkit and all around scaring Fern. He cared about her wellbeing, mental state, and always wanted to make her feel loved and happy.
Thistleclaw was a creep and was upright insane. He was preying upon what the clan sees as a young child/teenager, and Spottedpaw was so trusting- she had no clue about what the heck was going on.
When I saw the title: Spottedleaf’s Heart
I assumed it would cover her side of the Spottedfire relationship, seeing that Firestar’s warrior name was Fire(heart).
I was wrong, and for me, it seemed very hard to see as a good story, and very disturbing. The general plot is disturbing, and I thank Moonkitti for not treating something that level of violating as a joke.
Ya, Dustpelt is a really loyal warrior in the end and he was a good father and mate.
Agree
Y O I N K Finally someone who is defending Dustpelt!
Dustpelt fell in love with Ferncloud when the were both adults, they chose to be together, like Blossomfall and Thornclaw.
Damn a serious video by Moonkitti, I'm so proud of you for speaking about this Moon
Same.
Yeah
Seeing mooomkitti so serious gives me the chills
*moonkitti
Just FYI Cassandra was a character in Greek Mythology whom Apollo cursed with having the gift of predicting the future; but no one will ever believe her predictions. (Goosefeather is very similar)
As a huge Greek mythology nerd, thanks for explaining it so I didn't have to.
That's exactly what I've been thinking!!
ah, thanks. i didn't understand what moon meant when she said "cassandra".
I infered that because I remember a book with a main character's name called Cassandra and she kinda predicted the future (I forgot what book it was but it's targeted towards grades 4-7 lol... I was in 6th grade when I read it though, that was 3 years ago)
scidduls No problem :D
I know it's a children's book, but when Thistleclaw told her to meet him alone at night without telling anyone I got legitimately terrified of what was going to happen anyway
Agreed. We all know the implications.
Thank *whatever diety or lack thereof that the person reading this comment believes in* that Spottedleaf ran from the situation.
That is what's scary. It's meant to be a childrens/pre-teens book, but it literally includes a child predator. It's terrifying.
*Erins: Let’s make a book about a child predator*
*fans: O h g o d*
or the Erins need a reason to put Thistleclaw in *h e l l*
Yosi Anderson fair, but they could’ve used a less horrifying reason
@@lollivee6770 I agree. Having Thistleclaw train in the dark forest is reason enough to put him in the dark forest, but having him manipulate a child is just horrifying and it bothers me so much that Spottedpaw didn't think to talk to anyone about Thistleclaw.
60% of the fandom: the only problem is the age gape
@@yourlocalmoron4090 ik so many things are wrong with it and people just say things about the age gap-
I actually see a wasted potential in spottedleaf's heart, the thing is that child-molesters and child-groomers do exist and sadly aren't a rare occurrence, people shy away from such subjects and that's just not ok, you need to warn children that such bad people do exist, therefore if only the book was worded differently, in a way that it would been educational, that would have been great.
Mapleheart I agree. These sort of things should be exposed to children, in order to teach them how to recognize this behavior and what to do about it. This book didn't sufficiently portray that grooming is bad and what a potential victim should do about it. It's a huge lost opportunity.
They should actually put this out in young adults in school libraries, they talked about sexual assault (aka rape but its more pg because it was 4th grade) so why the hell not put Spottedleaf’s heart in young adults? (Atleast in my school they talked about rape)
If they dont have a disclaimer in the prologue for ‘disturbing elements’ in Spottedleaf’s heart then well...
Mapleheart agreed. I would love to make a book, tv show, or even a movie targeting children that would teach kids how horrid some people are. And how to learn if you could REALLY trust someone. i refused to even read this book beacuse of certain people telling me how horrible it was.
Yeah, they should *teach this is schools* I haven’t even heard a peep from my teacher about this. Every child should know this. We don’t want children getting r*ped by a person who was being “nice”! Every child should, when it is a adult who isn’t their parent, think of they are being to kind or something if this person is gonna do the things they did to Spotted’Leaf
Witch might be why I am insecure about meeting new people and talking about my problems-
Normally I would joke about how moonkitti is serious for once, but it's all true. It's scary when you are manipulated, especially when it's child manipulation and you are being manipulated by someone you trust and thought was trustworthy enough to not do something as horrible and scary as this, especially when someone is being sketchy like Thistleclaw when he told her to meet him at midnight without telling anyone and without context where they were going.
And when you think about it, Thistleclaw taking Spottedleaf to the dark forest is a metaphor for something really dark..... Thank God she ran when she realized where she was.
how did the erins manage to write grooming and domestic abuse without realizing bruh
Or abusive relationships...
Think before you act guys :|
Yeah they do that, personally i just think the book was written too well :/
Have you read SquirrelFlight’s Hope This is a problem that they’ve had at least twice
I'm pretty sure it was intentional here, they're just bad at making it obvious.
“Oops i accidentally wrote this oh well”
Alternate writing: Thrushpelt, being the perfect bean he is, pieces together what is happening and explains to Spottedpaw what’s wrong with the situation and that he would protect her if Thistleclaw reacted poorly to her standing up for herself. Thrushpelt takes it upon himself to confront Thistleclaw, as well as letting Sunstar know about the situation. In a tragic twist, this alerts Sunstar to Thistleclaw’s nature and dissuades him from choosing him as deputy. However, by this point, Bluefur has had her kits and makes the decision to give them up, unaware about the scenario that has already gone down. Spottedpaw, too embarrassed and hurt by everything to tell the truth, helps her as best as she can with the kits and vows to protect her clan as she had been protected by Thrushpelt. However, the story then potentially ends with Thistleclaw attacking Thrushpelt when out training, and the two mortally wound each other. Thistleclaw is left bleeding out on the RiverClan border, and Thrushpelt asks Spottedpaw and Bluefur to hide the nature of his death as well. “Just tell them I died a warrior.” Idk, I just wanted more closure to Thistleclaw and Thrushpelt’s passings than “eh greencough and a border dispute work fine”
Bro someone needs to hire you as a writer-
@@mossy_rox2901 funny enough that is what I’m hoping to do for my career lmao
I know I'm a year late, but I would LOVE THIS as the end (or... near end) of the book, it would make the fact that the relationship was bad much more clear
This great! I love this idea.
You know how Snowfur fell in love with him because he was always "so nice to her"? I wonder how much she was potentially manipulated behind the scenes as well.
True.
Basically Tigerclaw & Goldenflower. But Tigerclaw actually did *love* Goldenflower.
@@sunnymist_wcr we *sure* about this?
@@sophthehusky6231 uep
Im pretty sure he loved Sasha more
Thanks for taking this seriously and addressing it, since so many people asked. While yes I see people using the defense, actual cats this age it may be fine, the characters in the books are heavily anthropomorphized. (I know I've said the 'they're just cats' line myself, but more I think on it. No they aren't written that way.) She's clearly portrayed as a young naive child/teen and he is an adult. If she were older/already a warrior and they used a similar plot, it would have been different. (Example, I think Pinestar and Leopardfoot? She was much younger than him but they didn't have any romance until she was Leopardfoot, not Leopardpaw. Correct me if I'm wrong) I still don't think I would have been a fan, personally but yeah. But the other two novellas were good though, I agree! I'd like more DotC stories.
I totally agree with you, Tusofsky. Pedophiles in *anything* to deal with humans or anthropomorphic animals is *not* okay.
Not to mention, humans start to reach sexual maturity (which is defined as the age an animal becomes physically capable of reproducing) anywhere between the ages of 12 to 15 during the onset of puberty. Sexual maturity does not equal mental maturity, nor does it mean that someone, human or otherwise, is a full-grown adult. New apprentices in the warriors series don't act like fully mature, rational adults either. They act like young teenagers, often being impulsive and immature, lacking foresight in their choices and actions. The argument "it's okay because cats are sexually mature at 6 months old" doesn't hold any water in light of these facts, and it seriously bothers me when people use this argument to defend this aspect of the story.
Yeah, a similar thing goes for Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight-- he was her flipping substitute mentor but they weren't really in a relationship back then.
Thank you, and I agree. Many teens who think they are ready for stuff like this ARENT, because mentally they are not ready, and may not be ready for a long time. I also don’t get why people hate pine star and leopard foot together, yeah, there is an age gap, but pine star waited until she was a warrior and by then she was an adult and could make her own decisions and was mentally able to cope with it, (I know people with parents who have an over 10 year age gap). So it was an ok relationship, thistle X spotted was clearly pedophillia and child grooming and was a terrible thing to happen (and it was confirmed to be pedophillic be the Erin’s so yeah)
I feel that the "they're just cats" excuse can apply to some situations but not others, when it comes to issues like pedophilia it can't be used due to the nature of their adult and child personalities, but with issues like incest between distant cousins (not characters who consider themselves kin or are closely related) I think the cat excuse works since the two cats don't have a personal family connection and in the wild inbreeding is common. Most couples in Warriors aren't so closely related to be considered incest, however I do kind of have a problem with Ivypool and Fernsong because half the series is about a prophecy based on her sister being related to his dad and they're directly descended from another main character, Firestar (or I guess Jake since Ivypool is descended from Princess)
"Cats are sexually mature at six moons"
So? The way cats are anthropomorphized, they are like humans, with human emotions and thoughts. Most girls are sexually mature (or at least able to get pregnant) at age 12, some even get it at 9.
Anyways, the books never mention cats being sexually mature for obvious reasons. The way I see it, becoming a warrior indicates you have matured enough to make your own choices and not be taught anymore.
The book could have gone so many different routes, Thistleclaw telling Whitepaw to manipulate Spottedpaw, or maybe just not including Thistleclaw at all.
I was really excited to buy this book, but I haven't bought it get simply because this book disgusted me and I just didn't want to buy it.
True.
A lot of people here are saying that Spottedleaf did the same thing to Firepaw, Dustpelt did the same to Fernpaw, Crookedjaw did the same thing to Willowpaw, etc. But I can’t see it. None of the pairs listed above did anything similar to what Thistleclaw did. One, Dustpelt didn’t even bring up being mates until Ferncloud was a Warrior, Crookedjaw was less than six moons older than Willowpaw, and Spottedleaf didn’t even bring up her crush until after she was dead. Thistleclaw was trying to get Spottedpaw to be his mate while she was still in the nursery. There’s a giant difference between that and a ~20 year old having a crush on a ~16 year old and never bringing said crush up. Honestly, it disgusts me how people are pointing to these other, healthy relationships (not counting Spottedleaf’s crush) and saying that Thistleclaw was doing the same thing. Spottedpaw was younger than his son, ffs. It’s disgusting.
Exactly! Most people only pay attention to the age gap, but this situation is completely different. It's creepy and uncomfortable thinking about the peculiar way Thistleclaw treated Spottedleaf.
Dustpelt is Ferncloud's uncle too and she was pregnant at an apprentice
@@kaylynnxxx2145 No she wasn't, she got her warrior name before she had kits.
@@Wolfst0rm well it is still ironic how Ferncloud was younger than Silverstream when she gave birth and survived (considering Silverstream was too young I guess idk)
@@Wolfst0rm She had to be pregnant before a warrior because she have birth only 1 book after the darkest hour so yeah, her and dustpelt mated when she was only an apprentice
I never thought of Thistleclaw of a evil cat, rather a very ambitious cat and I liked his character.
Now I hate him. Also it doesn't seem like him at all. As well as many other characters in this book, Thistleclaw doesn't really seem to be acting in a way I would think he'd act and it's very disappointing.
I made this 40
I think the Erins did it so we would like Bluestar more and hate Thistleclaw and think the ship between his actual not a child mate is bad. (Ehem Snowfur.)
Same same
@@astronic9979 I think the Erins originally intended for the story to be a warning of abuse/grooming. But they handled it all wrong. While it's true that abusers typically make their victims think nobody would believe them, hiding from the problem until it goes away is not always a viable option.
@@MelonTartVA The book itself treats Thistleclaw like a bad boy and Spottedleaf just made a "mistake" in living him not that he manipulated her
Wow… I uh never expected a children’s book to have such dark themes
Edit: I wrote this two years ago and suddenly this comment as exploded. The only reason why I'm confused is because when I was in primary school, kids as young as 8 were allowed to read Warriors. I hope you understand why I was confused ^^
They actually take another themes but indirectly like mental illness (Through Bluestar) Unwanted pregnancy (Lizardstripe) Homosexuality (Barley and Ravenpaw) Religion (Starclan) Faith Lost (Mothwing, Bluestar, Cloudtail) Depression (Briarlight) and etc
Me neither.
Warrior cats was written for teenagers
@@Alyahsdoll your a teen
I don’t think it was a children’s book
I'm sure some of you guys saw the video I made on this, and I got constant comments about how cats are sexually mature to the point where I almost thought my video was wrong. But this has made me agree with my own point all over again. If these cats can have political systems they are anthropomorphised enough to have inappropriate relationships. I agree with EVERY point you made and I wish I’d expressed them better in my video.
WolfSword87 yeah, it's not "just cats", it's a book about humanlike cats made for humans to read and relate to. Warriors isn't meant to be super realistic lmao
but. cats literally reach sexual maturity at 6 months old. they're still cats. this is more a story of a toxic relationship and blatant manipulation than underage dating.
I hate spotted x thistle for many reasons. One is the age Gap, another is manipulation, the dark forest part,and finally the fact snowfur should have been thistleclaws only mate, aside from the fact I think thisleclaw didn't deserve a mate
I am Groot true, dustpelt was her uncle so..........
You're name is dumb
"But Thistleclaw wasn't an evil cat."
"But Bluefur shouldn't have been deputy and Thistleclaw wouldn't have been a bad deputy."
"But Thistleclaw wasn't really bad until after Bluefur became deputy."
"But we should defend Thistleclaw."
This is so disgusting. I always thought it was the Thistleclaw-manipulating-Spottedpaw part of the book that was gross and not the age gap. I'm glad you actually took the time to do this.
Glitchy Wolf h
A lot of the comments were made before this book dropped, so it's a bit unfair to point them out as disgusting now.
a lot of the people defending thistleclaw don't consider this book as canon
i saw thistleclaw originally as a cat stuck in grief and although he would have been an awful leader/deputy i don't think he was an "evil" character and sure as hell didnt deserve to go to kitty hell, especially if ashfur didn't
i mean none of his actions are excused but you can sympathize with him and it makes him overall an interesting character
but
this book would totally change that if i saw that as a canon
thistleclaw just seemed very out of place and the whole story line seemed out of nowhere so me and many others defending thistleclaw don't see it as canon
if it did he would totally deserve to go to kitty hell like outright
i dont care if he was fucking firestar that shits disgusting
sorry for talking your ear off but oml don't think all thistleclaw supporters support this adult/child shit and all that manipulation and just.. ew. haha anyways have a nice day/night man
8oltdha This book was clearly made from the hatred at the bottom of Vicky's heart. I absolutely loathe Bluestar, mainly because she's painted to be the greatest cat ever, but she's so rotten.
Glitchy Wolf. Nobody likes mapleshade
One argument I've seen to defend the story is that cats are fully mature at 6 months, so it's okay. The problem with that is Spottedleaf is present as a child or teenage character. Children are reading this and are meant to relate to Spottedleaf.
StormBerryMC another problem with that is that I got my period at 13 - which means I was sexually mature at 13. Would it be okay for a 30 year old human Thistleclaw to get with 13 year old me because I was sexually mature? No, absolutely not! And it's the same with Spottedpaw
IloveRen1 THIS👏🏼IS👏🏼AN👏🏼IMPORTANT👏🏼FUCKING👏🏼POINT👏🏼
StormBerryMC
Yeah, I honestly don't know what the Erins were thinking; kids being like: "Oh, Spottedpaw liked an old guy, and got tricked by this child predator. OOHH HASHTAG RELATABLE!" The Erins really need to step up their game.
People who say that seem to have a fair point until you realise that these are cats living in an organised society with traditions, mythology, language, ranks, an education system, games and religion. These cats are not real. They behave like us. They live in a society more similar to ours than we realise which also means that things like this are not okay.
StormBerryMC
besides, apprentices are heavily coded to be children/young teenagers. they're immature, childlike in general, and constantly described as being much smaller in size than their mentors. and these are humanized cats in an organized, complex society with universal morals and laws. if they can understand and agree that murder is wrong and harming kits is wrong, then they should understand that a young apprentice being romantically preyed upon by a much older warrior is wrong.
The book itself is NOT BAD, it shows a situation that is real and dangerous and told by the victims point of view which explains many things to outsiders when it comes to this. The problem is that its a still a childrens book series that should have a GIANT NEON SIGN on it that says "If you see this kind of behavior or are victim of it, tell your parents, teacher or anybody who is an adult and you have trust in. Dont be like Spottedpaw who should have told this to Swiftbreeze, Thrushpelt, Bluefur, Featherwhisker or Sunstar."
I personally still wonder what Thistleclaw was thinking. "My mate is dead because of her sister, now i will take a much much younger kit and groom her to be my mate!"
What a piece of fucking shit.
Love how Draikinator interpreted how Snowfur reaction was to all of this. Snowfur is Starclans Big Mama when it comes to kits, being the guardian of Bluefurs kitten, most importantly mosskit, i expect her to be angry and utterly disgust by her former mates actions. So i think him being killed by a River Patrol is, infact, a total lie but the cats couldnt think of anything else when his body was found.
snowfur saw him flirting with a teenage girl and struck him down this is canon
I saw a fan headcanon recently that Redtail killed Thistleclaw after he learned what he’d done to his sister, and honestly I see it as canon now.
@@ababyharpseal6534 red tail and Spotted Leaf are Brother and sister?
Warrior cats is most definitely NOT children's book! It involves death, killing, and mutilation (Tigerstar mostly)
@@paradox-they-them9039 It’s aimed at them though
I know how horribly late I am.
But Spottedleaf’s Heart would’ve actually been a great book if it was handled better. I think that the people writing the story didn’t take it seriously, and that's what really messed up the entire plotline. If they actually took the time to give the book quality writing, I believe it would’ve turned out much better.
Edit: Also, mental health and other serious topics like abuse and manipulation aren’t really spoken about in Warriors. I believe that if they really dwell on it, it would make the books relatable, and even more harsh on the topics of reality.
Agreed. I think it was meant to be a warning to children and young teens about being abused and/or groomed. But it was handled in the completely wrong way.
@@MelonTartVA Right ! The authors made it feel like, "oh, somebody you know, or perhaps a stranger you thought you could trust is doing something to you that you don't like ? And they're telling you not to tell anybody ? Welp, it happens ! Just grow up, you'll get over it." No ? That is *horrible,* and definitely not how the situation should be handled. And obviously, Spottedleaf was young. She didn't know any better. She thought that Thistleclaw was a cat she could trust. But despite that, the book never outright said, "this is bad," or something along those lines.
@@koiiian3994 and we never see Thistleclaw punished for this. Someone could say that him being sent to the Dark Forest is his punishment. But no. Considering the implications of taking her to the dark forest (I'm pretty it's implying statutory before she ran), that's not good enough.
@@MelonTartVA Exactly ! I suppose I can admit that the book had the right idea when attempting to tell teens and/or young adults that having a relationship like Thistleclaw and Spottedleaf is, indeed, bad. They just executed it horribly.
@@koiiian3994 yeah. If I could rewrite this book, I would have her tell Bluefur since I'd make them mentor and apprentice. Bluefur then reports this and has Spottedpaw moved to medicine cat for her own protection. While Spottedpaw is angry, she's comforted by her new mentor and informed that what was happening was not ok.
While this is happening, Thistleclaw has fled the clan and the warriors are looking for him. At the end of the book, it's revealed they found his body but he's passed. While Spottedleaf is initially sad, she finally accepts that what was happening between them was not a good thing and that she'll find someone who genuinely cares about her.
"Thistleclaw wasn't bad! He shouldn't have been sent to the dark forest!"
*You sure 'bout dat?*
Unrelated: how do you get bold print
I also totally agreee with you
@@salem_draws633 you get bold by putting asterisks(*) before and after the sentence ( *hello* )
@@dagbackerud3247 what is wrong with you
@@dagbackerud3247 That doesn't mean its not fucking creepy and gross.
@@dagbackerud3247 It still is a terrible thing to do. SpottedPaw should’ve told her mentor or leader, and most likely if she did, then ThistleClaw would’ve been exiled. Just because it is not in the warrior code, it doesn’t mean it is gross as fuck and extremely inappropriate for an adult, in this case ThistleClaw, to do.
I'll be honest: Thistleclaw was one of my favorite villians. He was morally grey, and I always liked that. However, the way he grooms Spottedpaw is so disgusting and wrong that I can't like him anymore, even as a character. Witnessing child grooming and predatory actions happening to some of my best friends in my youth, it just puzzles me why anyone would not try to actively get rid of this book in the production state or at least showing that what Thisleclaw did to Spottedpaw was disgusting and wrong.
he's both morally and physically gray tbh
@@willlockthedoor7176 get urself a guy who is both
I still like thistleclaw it just adds to his psychopathy and his Grey and violent character. Idk I just like really like psychopaths or crazy villains in books I know I’m a bad person
I don't understand why you thought Thistleclaw was grey.
Even before this novella, he hadn't any positive aspect. I mean, he is the ONLY cat in the whole serie to NOT have a good reason to behave like that except a full wickedness (or a mental illness).
Oh my God I never read this book but holy shit is that awful. My mouth actually fell open when you talked about all the ways Thistleclaw was manipulating her. Telling her it's Starclan's will that they're together, accusing her of liking someone more than him AND TELLING HER TO MEET HIM ALONE AT NIGHT AND NOT TELL ANYONE. That's 100% predatory behaviour and I'm shocked that this was allowed to be published in a children's series.
I know also hi Rosefox
Well, I can see it published in a children's series. . . If Thistleclaw was called out on his behavior and punished for it in the same story it happened.
We learn from books. Children or those in this sort of situation could have learned how creepy Thistleclaw and the pedo relationship was and how to avoid it--if the authors had handled this plotline as a warning tool. If they, rather than just the commentators, had told their fans why this was wrong and creepy.
I think Barley and Ravenpaw were gay..?
+Candybanaenae Pretty sure that was originally gonna be canon lol
Candybanaenae
they were going to be mates, but it was scrapped (sadly)
This book made me cry because Spottedleaf is my favorite cat.
I didn't read it because I felt uncomfortable.
My mom used the "cats are sexually mature at six months old" thing on me.
I've still yet to read it.
Also Spottedleaf is my third favorite cat, behind Leafpool and Hollyleaf.
Same
Ashlynn Norton
... that doesn’t make it better. And I’m probably never going to read this book.
@Rose Skywalker yeah i know, though they're not all my faves anymore (i still like them all a lot but they're not necessarily my top faves anymore).
Mine too
Can we PLEASE talk about how he's flirting with Spottedpaw when he CLEARLY already has a son and a mate in Snowfur?!
His son is also older than her
On the other hand Snowfur was already dead, and there were cats in the series with several mates, some with their past mate dead, some having two mates at the same time
S N that isn’t exactly the point
@@wingedtigress9752 Yea ik I just tried to explain that it's not too uncommon i nthe waca series
S N I know it isn’t uncommon, but in this case it’s much more disgusting
I've seen so many people who take pride in ignoring this book or this side of Thistleclaw's character and it honestly worries and disgusts me. We all knew that Thistleclaw is a dark forest cat for a reason. I agree that this type of story should've been presented in a more "in your face" way, so to say, for every reader to understand the seriousness of the situation and how wrong Thistleclaw's actions were. But the same people who understand the situation also ignore that it ever happened only make it worse, I think. Thistleclaw is a child predator and there is no way to escape it. It's a fact and it will always be canon. No one should put their pre-Spottedleaf's heart feelings towards him over the things he's done--no, his character was not ruined, and no, no one should ignore that aspect. I'm glad you're not one of these people. ((Sorry if I don't make much sense I'm not good at explaining things))
HulluRichie as someone who has said I like to pretend this book didn't happen, that's a fair point. I'll keep that in mind
! I'm sure that people have their own reasons when ignoring this book, but how I see it, it's people putting aside the pedophilia and acting as if it didn't happen--it's just wrong. Spottedleaf is a victim, and even though she's fictional and this whole story is just that, it's a sad reflection of real life. Child abuse should not be ignored
Honestly my reason for ignoring it is because 1) It was only written by Vicky, none of the Erins or the editorial team had a say in it 2) The novellas are supposed to act as extra "fluff" to the stories and are not good sources of canon information 3) The way Thiselclaw was written was not how he was written in Bluestar's Prophecy; Thiselclaw is supposed to be an arrogant, ambitious, and an "in the moment character" meaning he doesn't think before he acts, but this novella portrays him as a cunning, manipulative, and careful cat. I'm not saying I ever liked him or that I am defending the horrendous acts seen in this book, I'm just saying that I think this novella didn't do a good job as to explaining why he's in the dark forest and could've done much better if it had not been centered around a disgusting manipulative relationship with a really out of character villain.
Still, even with all you mentioned, it's canon and should not be ignored.
Yeah. I really should start seeing it as canon and not push it away like I've been doing. The only think that's holding me back is my own experiences that I recently had with one of my oldest childhood friends doing this too me. I guess since I'm a victim who was in denial for a while, it hurts me to know a series that I held dear to my heart pulled this terrible terrible story out. Sorry if this is tmi. I just feel like I had to say this fir my sake. Thank you for opening my eyes.
I love this because it shows that you're not all jokes,but it shows that you care. I would've gone over this topic sooner if I knew this. Thank you for this video.
Mosskit of StarClan According to this video, you have a bandana and a football. I didn't know you played!
Ivypool of ThunderClan Shh
I agree. Children, do not trust grown adults who want to meet with you in private.
Unless if it's a parent of yours
Comet dust
Only if you live with them or have a properly arranged custody share.
+Cinders Fire - Yeah that part I was kind of shocked to see something like predatory child stalking happening in Warriors, especially when the book's theme was so obvious that it's almost impossible to not see for older audiences. When I read that line, "meet me tonight, don't tell anyone", I had to put the book down for a minute.
So don’t trust my teacher?
Alpurca you may not know your teachers full history they may or may not have done wrong in the past or may have thoughts of doing something wrong not saying they can't be trusted when you get in trouble and need to see you in the hall but somewhere outside the school environment or where no one will see you I'm not sure if you can trust them no offense you may have known your teacher your whole life for all I know
Most of the series: meow meow cat
Spottedleaf’s Heart: ᗩᘐᙓ ᓰᔕ ᗝﬡᒪᎩ ᗩ ﬡᘎᙢᕊᙓᖇ
This is so true
and jail is just a place ;)
So I guess we probably know why Thistleclaw went to the dark forest..
Edit: also, I agree, they should’ve totally had Goosefeather point out Thistleclaw’s actions
Robot Gore i made this 10
Or have Spottedleaf tell Bluefur since they seem to have a strong bond (like babysitter and child relationship) and Bluefur takes care of things behind the scenes to not embarrass Spottedleaf as the victim, moving her to Medicine Cat apprenticeship to protect her from possibly being attacked by Thistleclaw while on patrol.
I wish I had too (honestly I think Thrushpelt should of noticed it seems more in character for him to notice since he’s our purrfect innocent sunshine boy who cares about everyone. Also I think goosefeather may have tried to point it out but maybe he thought no one would believe him again and maybe he thought he was actually going crazy I think starclan should of definitely told spotted paw since it’s no secret they can spottedleaf became a medicine cat)
I'm glad this was taken in a serious manner. This is a real world situation that has happened to many young teenagers, most on the internet. Who trust these grown men because the young teen believes they "understand them" or some other reasons. Which is why they now teach kids about internet safety in school. A minor can't make the decisions, an adult can and laws are set for a reason. Thank you for making this video. It's a topic that many need to understand.
Thistle x Spotted makes so many people uncomfortable, on the wiki spoilers, it warns viewers about the ship.
Why in the world is that even a ship??
This is a sign that Spottedpaw is in a bad relationship
I get it😂
I get the reference but you probably shouldn't be joking about this subject
@@sunkelking agreed, child grooming isn’t something to joke about
I get the reference, but you shouldn't be joking about grooming.
The more i talked about it the more abusive it sounded. Her fear of thistle whatever his suffix is, him trying to make Spottedleaf a dark forest warrior. I kept talking about it and the more words flew out of my mouth, the worse it sounded.
Thistleclaw, but true.
Honestly I can’t say how much I appreciate moonkitti not making this a joke, stuff like this is dangerous and honestly terrifying. When I was in middle school this topic became more apparent in any “safety talk” you could call it. So growing up this was definitely one of my worst fears.
This is one of the reasons moonkitti is one of my favorite UA-camrs. She understands the appropriate time to make jokes and when not to. Thank you for all your great content, your amazing moonkitti! 💕
people shouldnt use cat's ages as an excuse for spottedxthistle. Yes, while cats are sexually matured at the age of 6 months (when a kit is made into an apprentice), warriors is different. In warriors, cats open their eyes after like 2 days of being born??? female cats would be 24/7 pregnant in real life?? these cats have a society, medicine and RULES. Lets also not forget the fact that these characters are *fictional*. In a *fictional world* even cats can live by rules, rules that dont allow pedophilia. Thanks for not joking abt this subject, because im sure that Victoria Holems didnt intend promoting pedophilia and such these things
also uhh spotty helped bluestar sneak out of camp with her kits???
i dont remember this being mentioned in bluestar's prophecy lmao?
I also find the "cats mature at six months" argument stupid, beacause humans can mature to adults (biologicaly) at age twelve. And warriors are basically humans, mentally and socially. Sorry I just wanted to throw my two cents.
I think SH was written after BP so it was a retcon (am I using that right?) cuz I love BP and Ik spotted didn’t sneak blue out
Also i haven’t read the book but thistleclaw is disgusting. Especially since spotted is a rebound from his dead wife (snowfur)
3:42 I knew the dark forest was evil but I didn't know it was full of trees with unfinished swastikas.
Communist Crusader your username makes it better tbh
Communist Crusader o god
YES I WASN'T THE ONLY ONE WHO NOTICED
Sakura Seeds I'm not going to get into an argument about communism because this is moon kitti video
hah.
THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THIS UP! I could hardly get through the book because I was completely disturbed by Thistleclaw’s behavior, kind of like the feeling when everything’s normal but there is tense music in the background. It’s portrayed innocently but you know something, or in this case everything is wrong. I remember I told my friend about the book in a similar way but she responded with: “But they’re cats, they’re sexually mature” while that may be true in nature, it’s not okay in a *childrens* book with cats that basically act like humans. I feel like if the author knew full well what they were writing, they should’ve made a point, a message to young readers that this kind of thing is wrong. Not because they train in the Dark Forest, but because they are quite obviously manipulating a child. Even something as simple as Spottedpaw telling somebody and them helping her out or anything that sends a good message would have at least brought something good and healthy to the children reading. I don’t know who wrote the book out of the team, but it would be nice to have some insight on what they intended with this storyline.
Yes, cats are sexually mature at the apprentice age. But humans are sexually mature at 12-14 years of age and capable of reproduction, through puberty. Spottedpaw is the equivalent of a 13-14 year old. Of course, that's still disgusting.
When i was younger I used to play video games on a dusty console, I was "friends" with a 32 year old man. He said things like "you're so mature for your age" and "you're my best friend, we should be closer." Knowing full well I was a CHILD. He was the thistleclaw of my life, and I looked up to him for months. He always told me that I shouldn't tell any adults I was friends with him, when I did tell my older sister [17 at the time] she told him to hang out with people his age, he then threatened to kill us, hurt us, doxx us, etc. He never did but it still makes me anxious around older people, especially men.
That is so terrifying and scarring!! I hope you’re okay now.
i hope he gets his karma
this is kind of terrifying when you remember that this book is in elementary school libraries. (all the warriors books were in my school library when I was in 3rd grade) Imagine young children reading this without realizing how wrong this is and being convinced that this is normal.
Its 1 AM but Moon uploaded
Where i am its almost 5:00 pm so....
Maja Matuszek it's 9pm where I live
Pebblefrost 123 same.
Except it's now 9:46.
Maja Matuszek it's almost 5pm for me
I used to think Thistleclaw was AMAZING I like his backstory and all. And when I got spottedleaf's heart and thought to read it I just thought it would be about the challenge of becoming a medicine cat.
I read the book and now I hate thistleclaw.
A book can do a lot to a person ;-;
Same, I read this a long time ago, and I’m not into the fandom anymore but still-
I know that this was 4 years ago but fr.. i liked thistleclaw until he started liking minors
*"...while she is functionally a nun."*
I don't know why that line makes me laugh so damn much.
*After Reading*
*shaky*
"TWO SHOTS OF VodKa!"
*pours whole bottle*
Echoing River it’s a vine reference I believe
LMFAO
LOL YEH
I know this is three years old, but thank you for not joking about this subject.
Baby Jake. Everyone loves a Baby Jake
Dylan The Otaku Who is Baby Jake's father??
Ivypool of ThunderClan I don't know...
Ivypool of ThunderClan Jake is everyone’s father. Jake is his own father.
Jay Valenz Jake is the ultimate father. His dad jokes must be next-level…
Where is the baby jake?
I didn't touch on this very much in my video on Legends of the Clans because I didn't feel like I could do it justice and I couldn't find a way to succinctly differentiate Thistleclaw's actions from the likes of Crookedjaw or Dustpelt (who are generally not perceived as predatory). Thank you for making this video, as it clearly shows exactly what was wrong and treats the issue with the proper amount of seriousness, as well as pointing out how this story was not presented in the right way by the writers.
I feel like with Dustpelt, the difference is that he didn't make any romantic moves until after she was a warrior. Like he may have crushed on her, but he didn't do anything about it or try to convince her to be his mate until after she was a warrior. Obviously Ferncloud felt the same way, but still, Dustpelt gave her her childhood before he expressed his interest.
Exactly. While Crookedjaw was older, he wasn't THAT much older, and he clearly showed her a lot of respect that Thistleclaw didn't. Heck, when Willowbreeze died, Crookedjaw never took another mate. He was with her again in StarClan. He had no intent to manipulate her; he LOVED her.
The only really comparable age gap relationship is Bramblestar and Squirrelstar. Bramblestar(claw at the time) starting acting romantically towards Squirrelpaw during the great journey, and as you may know Squirrelstar was an apprentice during the great journey . He didn't really start to manipulate her until she was a warrior
Also, if you read Bluestar's Prophecy, the plot in Spottedleaf's Heart is wrong. In Spottedleaf's Heart, Spottedleaf is determined to become a warrior, until she has to face a fact that she HAS to become a medicine cat (I'm pretty sure). In Bluestar's Prophecy, Spottedleaf was sooo interested in herbs, that she WANTED to become a medicine cat. I'm pretty sure that this is true, and if you have read both books, you will see my point.
That is what I was thinking! God, this book should have never existed...
Quiv and in yellowfangs secret featherwhisker mentions her saying something like “I will have a new apprentice in a few moons she has shown interest and has come in my den a few times her name is spottedkit”
sneaselxriolu, who’s Starflight?
Yup, I read the book literally last week
@@EllentheGreat_1
A character from a different book series called Wings of Fire.
I feel like people forget how old Thisteclaw really is.
He has a SON that is OLDER than Spottedpaw/leaf!
Also, I personally HC that Thistleclaw didn’t get killed by a Riverclan patrol, instead: The warriors of Thunderclan find out what he did to Spottedpaw/leaf and they beat him up
Yeah and then they cover it up?
I believe Snowfur saw him flirting with minors and struck him with a bolt of lighting and sent him to hell.
The really scary thing is that Spottedpaw then saw Thistle's behavior as 'normal' and proceeded to treat Firepaw like this.
Groomed children (then adults) unless corrected with therapy unfortunately don't realize what they've been groomed to think is wrong and may treat others the way they've been treated without malicious intent. However, Spottedleaf did not even hint at a crush on Firestar until well after her death, and even then encouraged him to be with his peer, Sandstorm.
@@VenomQuill I don't think it's the fact that she was an apprentice while he was a warrior that is the problem, because those don't directly correspond to age. If it's an older apprentice with a warrior that might not be that big of an age gap, but Thistleclaw was manipulating her and grooming her almost since she was born. And he was WAY older than she was. Like literally she was a kit and he was a warrior, she was younger than his son. Spottedleaf didn't do that to Firepaw, she didn't act until he was much older.
@@shadowyzephyr I never said that. I said Spottedleaf never showed signs of being into Firepaw at all until it was "retconned" much later. I also said nothing about an age gap. I said that Spottedleaf could inadvertently show signs of pedophilic behavior without realizing it and definitely without malicious intent because of how she was abused and because she was not given proper psychological help.
However, yes, there is a problem between an apprentice and a warrior getting together. A 6-moon-old apprentice is ~10 years old in human years. As a cat, they're still lanky, mostly but not fully adult size, and very lanky like a pre-teen and still have some baby teeth. At 14 moons old, which is about warrior ceremony time (14 moons being ~13 months as a moon is 28 days), they're about 17 years old and fully grown. Tell me a child between the ages of 10 and 17 can be with an adult.
@@VenomQuill I think I was replying to the original commenter and I accidentally @'d you.
@@shadowyzephyr Oh, gotcha
Omg moonkitti you have an amazing point!! This book is a bad role model for children! It makes a lot of sense that you won't want to make this a joke cuz it is very bad! Like it sickens me when I finished the book...
Miss Artsy IKR
When I read it I had to turn it back in because it was so sickening.
It's not a bad role model cause after reading this, a kid would never be like: "welp, Spottedpaw went through this, so I want to also!" No! If Anything, it helps kids realize that if any adult stranger is trying to love you, he must be like Thistleclaw, and due to this book they know that Thistleclaw is a bad cat.
Jordan Granger i agree !
J - Squad I think they'd be more likely to think "Spottedpaw was also in a relationship with an adult as a child, so as long as he isn't evil I guess this is okay".
This is such a fucked up book
NO BAD WORDS please please please please
Moyer Smith Dude (i use that as a gender neutral term) these are books about cats slaughtering each other, drowning, forcing each other to eat killer berries, death, pain, fear, hunger, anger, and betrayal all around. A couple of curse words don't amount to anything compared to what the Warrior books are about
Good book, bad fans and topic
If you think this is bad read Heart of Darkness, it's about an Englishman who got an important post in the African colonies and is basically in denial of everything going on but subconsciously knows exactly what it is
Dominique Martinez I'm actually in the process of typing a comment analyzing how the book itself was good but the fans are making it out to be worse than it actually is and the topics are bad but the Erins didn't screw up and nor is the book just the fan base and topics
selneversleeps NO BAD WORDS
Plz
This is your
Opinion so I won’t disrespect your comment
" *Unforgettable.* "
This book could have been a great resource for young people to recognize grooming behavior like this if the writers had actually handled it correctly. Just some minor changes would have made it much better. Like the video says, if Spottedpaw had talked to Bluefur and Bluefur then explained how wrong Thistleclaw’s behavior was, it would have been fine.
A major problem (and sad thing) is that this could have been an excellent warning message to children about telling trusted adults when they’re being taken advantage of (like how Thistleclaw manipulated Spottedpaw). UNFORTUNATELY, it isn’t written in a way that portrays that message clearly enough for young readers (like Moonkitti said). We (sadly) NEED books like that, and, though it tries to be, Spottedleaf’s Heart just isn’t one of those books. :(
I feel this book should be read by older fans such as myself and Moonkitti
but I digress!
Younger audiences are going to read this book and get confused. This is why I encourage anyone who's adult age to recognize this book title, cover and subject matter to talk to your younger Warriors fans who you know! Tell them the answers to questions they may have and assist them that what Thistleclaw is doing is something to be avoided in real life! Teach them to stay safe and approach adult predators with a firm "no"! Teach them the best ways possible how to set boundaries!
I'm no expert on childcare or safety
but I'm a firm advocate for being against pedophilia!
And you kids watching this video, please listen to what us adults have to say as we want to make sure you're safe! Don't go to a stranger or an adult you think is scary! Go to the adults you trust! Parents, teachers, store staff, school staff, your friends' parents, your caregiver, your grandparents or guardians, aunts, uncles, older siblings, older cousins, support workers, therapists, doctors, nurses, the dentist, the police, firemen, your neighbour, advocates such as myself and other Warriors fans who're much older! We all are willing to give you the proper help!
Thanks a lot for reading and for Moonkitti to make this video more serious!
I hope y'all are having a great day/Halloween/Samhain and stay safe!
Terence van Overdyk Small children are not into books. They're into toys they want and electronics. Kids 13+ (Like Me) are reading these books. I read Into The Wikd and my parents taught me at five years old thw topic of sexual harrasement. Abuse, etc. I'm aware about the topic being gross. I grew up suspicious of all men (And a few women. Men are said to be predators,etc, more than women. Idk) But I grew up with a defense. Someday I'll use it. But this does sicken me. Especially since SpottedPaw trusted him. When I heard ThistleClaw gave her gifts and care and all that, I recognized his actions... It's called Child Grooming. Search it up. It'll give you more information.
"listen to us adults" but pedophiles are adults? listen to ur parents instead is better in my opinion xd
im a kid and i read these books
I’m 9 and I read it, I completely understand this..
Hah! I underatanded it and I'm a kid! ヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノヽ( `д´*)ノ
Yep
I'm sick of people defending this book tbh,, thank you for making this
NiightWiing Same it's absolutely disgusting...
NiightWiing I completely agree with you. I wish Spottedleaf's Heart could've been more clear on the whole child abuse thing, if it was, it would've been a great novella.
I don't think people defend it
This book makes everyone angry.
Most people think it shouldn't have been written
Agree. The whole " They're cats!1!1!1!" Thing is wrong. They act like humans, regular cats don't live in clans in the woods. (Awesome pfp btw)
Oh man thank you so much for discussing this in a mature way... This book was pretty uncomfortable for me to read, and it hurts my head that so many people keep defending it by saying "they are just cats it doesn't matter!!" or something along those lines, it just....It doesn't matter if they are cats, they are anthropomorphized cats with culture and morals and the audience is meant to identify with them as if they were human, so in the context of the story it is still 100% just as wrong...The "cats are sexually mature at that age!!" argument is so bad, like kids can be sexually mature and technically able to reproduce as young as 10 or 11, that doesn't make them adults???? ugh this book was just...so uncomfy. The way it was written, Thistle was only shown as bad because he was training in the dark forest, not because he was flirting up an apprentice. Even after it all happened, Spottedpaw is still mourning over the lost love they could have had if only he hadn't trained there, she never gets to recognize how bad it was. The frustrating thing is, the "romance" didn't even need to be there at all! If Thisteclaw's main flaw was wanting to train in the dark forest with evil cats, then that was the only justification needed for why he deserved to go there after death. The pedo romance could have been taken out ENTIRELY and the book wouldn't need to change much! this whole thing could have been avoided
pREACH!!!!
You are so right. I HATE the argument that “oh no their just cats it’s fine”, it really doesn’t mean they are ready, specially talking bout anthropomorphic cats here. As you said, humans can reproduce as young as 10-13, doesn’t mean they should, or can even be able to cope with mental (and physical since female bodies aren’t really fully built for that yet)
Before the whole scene where Thistleclaw tells Spottedpaw that they're meant to be together and crap, I was honestly confused. I was like, "Wait, are they in love? But Thistleclaw is an adult and Spottedpaw is a child? They're just friends, right? Thistleclaw is supposed to be like a brother or an uncle to Spottedpaw, right?" I always felt that Thistleclaw was suppose to be like an uncle to Spottedpaw before that scene, but the writing suggested otherwise. I feel that if they would've taken out the pedo romance part, then Thistleclaw should've been a good friend. I mean, it would make sense. Like, after losing Snowfur and having Whitekit taken away from him, him hanging out with kits could be justified by saying he was lonely or he was trying to be the father he wasn't able to be. But I guess Thistleclaw had to be a child predator to justify why he went to the dark forest..?
i'm...sorry but there is no world where a 15-16 year old girl is on the same level as a nearly 30 year old man. When was the last time you were around kids that age? They are not adults by any stretch of the imagnation
+Trinity Faye Especially since they're brains are pretty much made up of hormones.
"YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME MOM AND DAD I'M A THUG IM A REBEL I GOT A BUTTERFLY TATTOO AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW I HAVE A SECRET BOYFRIEND I WENT ON THE DISNEY CHANNEL WEBSITE AND I DIDN'T EVEN GET PARENTAL PERMISSION I'M SO GANGSTA"
Came back to this video after my extensive therapy helped me realized I was groomed. The conversation sparked after reading Spottedleaf's Heart per this video. Thank you Moon.
I honestly *never* knew this story even *existed.* I always thought Thistleclaw was sent to the DF because he was “too brutal” with fights. Nobody ever told me otherwise, and holy fuck, it’s terrifying.
I agree with you on the last part. Maybe Spottedleaf should have gone to her Mentor to explain them, and have her teacher step in. Now THAT would be a CLEAR meaning not to keep it silent, and you should always tell an adult. I say mentor because not all families (kids, not cats), in The world are always there for their kids, who will either ignore their pleads for help or downright just not believe them. Spottleaf could have told one of her mentors what was going on, they could have stepped in, and stopped Thistleclaw. But I think this would also ruin the book if Thistleclaw stayed in the clan after being stopped, because if a real child in real life told someone, they’d be under the impression that predator would still be around them, LIVING with them.
Spottedleaf became my favorite after reading this book. Poor girl.
She was always best she-cat
Same. I used to hate her because of firestar going on and on about
Sweet, sweet, spottedleaf
But now I love her after reading the book
I'm still quite neutral about her. This book made me lose respect for Thrushpelt though
I think you handled the topic incredibly well and your younger audience will learn a lot. As you said, a lot of videos cover the idea of character butchering in Spottedleaf's heart, or the age gap, rather than the points you made in the video. And they were not nearly as calm and informative as you were. Well done.
Bobbert The Honey Bear njjjnn nhsahjtftf
I've watched this video many times over the years, and every time I'm impressed by how well you explain the story and what the issues are with it. This is a very serious video about a very serious issue and I am so glad that you made this video the way you did. I don't comment on things often, and I don't really know what else to write. Anyway, thank you Moonkitti. Thank you.
I have to agree with the majority on this one, SpottedXThistle is one of the most fluffed up things out there.
Y’know, to lighten this mood, how about I tell you what auto generated captions says these cat’s names are!
Spottedleaf: Spotted kid, Spotted Pawn, Spotify(Lmao), Spotted posses, Spotted possitive, Spotted pod, Spotted Beeps (heart), Spotted bow, Spotted leaves(hurt(heart, though she is indeed hurt after this-))
Thistleclaw: Thistle club, This applause, Disel claw, Psychic laws, Thistle clause, Disick law, Tilt this will claw, Thistle clutch, Discipline, This law, Bissel claw, Thistle clogged, Thistle class
Thrushpelt: Trush pallets
Featherwhisker: Feather whisperer
Whitestorm: Wait storm
Bluefur: Blue fertel
100% agree with you, this is a creepy thing to have in a children's book and it's crazy they didn't directly address that Thistle's actions toward Spottedkit/paw were bad.
I haven't read warriors in a while but I do think this is an interesting story I love to see dark themes explored in fictional stories especially ones where you dont expect it
I haven't read the books myself so I cant form my own opinion on how this is tackled but if a relationship like this isnt really clear cut bad in childrens literature I can see why thats a problem
But i suspect bad writting has a lot to do with it
Its a shame bc something like this could have been easily used to make children more aware of the tactics used by manipulative adults
I think warriors has a lot of problems in general in its writting
The cats now are getting very inbred thanks to the no outside cats rule
And some of the writting (the mapleshade novella for example) is just downright bad
Its a shame they used thistleclaw for this type of plot because i much preferred the moral grey possibility of bluestar only viewing him as bad so she feels justified in pursuing her desire to be leader
Him being downright just evil takes away that interesting detail
I really wish spottedleaf and whitestorm could have found some comfort in each other as 2 young victims of the same predatory adult.
thank you so much for not making a joke about this one. i was horrified when i read the book, and i dont think i would have been able to cope with it in my life. i am also not going to read the comments, bc i dont want to see any jokes about it in there, either. i love the explaination about child grooming at the end, and yes, i am that sensitive about this book. please no one tease me for it.
I agree, Moonkitti, this is not something to joke about and it happens in real life. i'd day the people who take pride in doing this to children should go to hell, and rot. This is not a joke and the Hunters should've make Thistleclaw's character less.. well, sexually attracted to Spottedkit/paw/leaf. This has to be my least favorite of all the warrior cat novellas as it brings out many sensitive topics. Good explanation, Moonkitti. (btw i suck at explaining to if i sounded bad that's why.)
Me:I haven’t read the book yet so don’t watch it
Also me: fucking watch it
Same
Nightcore Fan sAME
Nightcore Fan i gave up and Watched it
Same tbh
I just did the same thing, decided I might not read it anyway so I would watch. Except now I'm interested. Dang it.
Gods that entire Novella, especially when Thistleclaw is "talking" to Spottedpaw, gives me shivers.. 😨
The most egregious issue with Spottedleaf's Heart is that they don't condemn Thistleclaw's behaviour in a book for primary school children, who are likely to not know what exactly is so wrong with Thistleclaw's behaviour. I agree with you in that Bluefur or Goosefeather could've been a source of advice; perhaps have them overhear a conversation between Thistleclaw and Spottedpaw or something. I don't want to downplay any of that: the main and most serious issue by far with this book is the lack of direct, unambiguous condemnation of Thistleclaw's behaviour.
However, I have another issue with the book from a literary standpoint (and, yes, of course this issue is overshadowed by the issues outlined by Moonkitti in the video). They made a morally ambiguous/mysterious character into an unambiguously evil one. I liked the fact that Thistleclaw maybe wasn't completely evil, or that Bluestar might have only been trying to become deputy for her own ambition. The Erins have taken that away because they don't want fans to debate whether or not Thistleclaw should've gone to the Dark Forest, and they wanted an excuse for him to be 100% evil.
I wouldn't phrase that as "ruining his character" because that's downright dismissive and disrespectful to victims of child grooming. If someone is found out to be a paedophile, you don't mourn the fact that you liked the paedophile before it came out; you try to support the victim and condemn the paedophile. Being sad about the perpetrator being bad takes the focus away from the loss the victim suffered. Similarly, I don't think there's a loss suffered by Thistleclaw here if we take the book as canon. However, I do wish they had used a different character (perhaps even a new character) to be so predatory-though, of course, it'd be difficult to use a pre-existing character without retconning as this behaviour should lead them to the Dark Forest, and there's only so many ThunderClan cats from this time period who went to the Dark Forest (Thistleclaw being one of them).
I think they (the Erins) tried to write a book on a very serious topic, and handled it inelegantly to say the least.
@F l a m e H e a r t No shit sherlock. I'm not talking about that
@F l a m e H e a r t Cool
Considering the way they portray Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw as romantic after all these seasons, I don't have faith that the writers can do a good job of writing bad relationships. I haven't read Spottedleaf's book but it sounds like a better writer could have made it more about showing the kid reader hlw grooming can happen and how important it is to tell someone. Regarding Squirrel and Bramble, they have such a long relationship that changes over the years, they could show how something can become unhealthy and you dont have to stay with someone who used to be nice and is no longer good for you. But that's not going to happen, most likely. If it did, the writers will have done better than I expected
SpottedLeafs mouth changes slighting from a frown to a owl/triangle face
This detail is extremely important.
YES MOONKITTI FINALLY SOMEBODY WHO AGREES THIS BOOK IS NOT FUNNY IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM
I think they could’ve made the story work with just removing the relationship all together and having Thistleclaw be Spottedleaf’s mentor. He could show her the dark forest, make her use the dark forest tactics, be a horrible person without them being in a relationship.
Spottedleaf would then completely distance herself from Thirtleclaw, talk to Bluefur about it and realise that she does want to train to be medicine cat.
Warriors community: How is thistleclaw in the dark forest but mudclaw and ashfur are in starclan?
Erin’s: Oh shit, they’re right, let’s write a book that ruins thistleclaw so we have an excuse for putting him there
Thistleclaw and his apprentice brutally assaulted a harmless CHILD that did nothing wrong. That should be reason enough to send him to the Dark Forest & it annoys me that so many people defend him for doing so.
@@copicking173 Thistleclaw never did anything actually evil. He was just an ambitious, mean cat. Spottedleaf's heart totally ruined his character. I don't think he should have ever been a main villain, just a slightly evil antagonist. Like Berrynose but meaner. He should have gone to Starclan and have everyone just hate him. He's a foil yet this book completely flipped his character.
@@angelfish1506 Assaulting a child isnt considered evil?
@@copicking173 He didn't tho. Tigerpaw did. Thistleclaw was a little evil, but it was an acceptable amount. He was just a big bully for the most part. We needed that, a cat that wasn't completely murderous and evil or good. He seemed like a coward. He wouldn't help you but he'd help the bad guys only to turn chicken shit and run away. That was his character before Spottedleaf's Heart.
Thistleclaw was in starclan before Bluestar chased him out... So yeah
It's actually out of character for Bluestar to not be protecting her in this as a child predator victim, as Bluestar/Bluefur definitely would especially since she'd be the most suspicious of Thistleclaw to find something like this out. Perhaps her helping Spottedpaw could've been the reason the two were relatively close as leader and medicine cat in "Into the Wild." I also like to headcanon that Oakheart was partly responsible for the patrol that killed Thistleclaw because of his connection to Bluefur.
Yes yes yes and yes
My friend asked me why I would like Thistleclaw to die again.
I screamed *_Spottedleaf's Heart_* to her.
When I read this book, I liked it. I felt like it was little peculiar that it was a relationship between a teenage child and a grown man with a son, but I just sort of let that go, and only considered their relationship bad when Thistleclaw started training in the Dark Forest. Then I watched this, and realized that Moonkitti is right. This is creepy, indecent, inapropriate, and bad. You really did spoil it for everyone, and thank goodness you did.
Moon kitty you are my favorite UA-camr
I cried when tigerclaw SMACKED the poor baby scourge. It was emotional.
Thisleclaw: GO TOUCH SOME GRASS
Baby scourge: I can’t… I eateded it all…😢
THIS IS A CHILDREN'S SERIES?!?! I always thought it to be a pre teen to adult series considering this very graphic descriptions of violence and among other things
It's taregeted 9 and up
It's hard to think about. Especially all the blood and stuff
Tbh it's not a child series, even though the editors say so
@@amy0044 it is a children's series. It is directed towards teens / preteens. children. minors.
@@sunkelking I can see your point, but there is a lot of violence
Yessss someone finally hit the nail on the head. The relationship is CREEPY and WRONG. When I was reading, the way Thistleclaw talks is just.... slimy... and gross! The age gap isn't the problem, it's the way the relationship is presented. Its DISTURBING and NOT RIGHT. Thanks for making this video, Moonkitti
We all think Thistleclaw goes to the dark forest because of his lust for battle but what about this? Thistleclaw lies and tries to manipulate an apprentice into being with him.
This is why I think he went to the dark forest and he deserved it.
I have never read this book, but I can get a pretty good understanding that its darker than the Dark Forest.
Honestly this is one of the most mature moonkitti video i’ve ever seen.
Also if i showed the end of this to my guidance teacher she would totally use this in one of our units
Kinda makes me want to do a rewrite called Spottedleaf's Survival where Bluestar brings attention to the whole situation, helping banish thistle and most of the plot is spottedleafs recovery afterwards and how she and blue change thunderclans culture.