Does Polybushing A Car Ruin It? Honda S2000 Handling Upgrades (S2000 Build Part Two)
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2021
- In today's video I look at some of the first changes we are making to my Honda S2000 - and seeing whether polybushing has ruined my car!
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As a long time owner of a 2002 AP1, which was used for track and street, all of the suspension mods you have done are great. The snap oversteer can be eliminated with a heavier front swaybar (Eibach) and using the stock rear. Going square really helped, though you might have to roll the front fenders, if the car is lowered more than 25mm. Corner balancing, as you have done, if an excellent choice. I would also suggest increasing the camber on the front and setting the rear toe-in to about 3-6mm. This, combined with the square setup, allows the car to rotate with confidence. BTW, Wedsport makes excellent wheels for the S2000. They are made in Japan and are used for the Japanese Touring Car race series. Looking forward to seeing the next episode.
I am a time traveller. I am watching this video at the start of February after you said I should be watching at the end.
I'm glad you got 17's on it. 18's or bigger on a Honder is sacrilegious
Sacrilegious only enjoy shitty tire selection.
I quite enjoyed the surprise cameo by Elton John, thank you.
I'M STILLLL STANDING YEAH YEAH YEAH
I was thinking the same.
I thought of John Candy!
If you are feeling the car down on power compared to previous drives take a look at your knock sensor just below the intake manifold. It's brittle plastic and can detach from the block. In that case the ECU will pull timing and run a safer setting making slightly less power
Doing your own valve adjustments is pretty straightforward and easy to learn tbh. Lot of tutorials and easy way to save money. 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Polly bush is always better than worn oem ones, not necessarily better than new oem though. Works for some points but not all.
My first girlfriend was called Polly Bush. Probably worn out now.
The S2000 is an amazing roadster. It's an MX-5 on steroids ☺
I have an mx-5 on steroids. 292HP on the wheels. Check my channel for some video's. A real widow maker. Everytime i drove it i get out with shaking hands and a adrenaline rush.
@@TheAdatto Awesome! I have an MX-5 that I really like, it's stock engine-wise, just outside tuning.
@@TheAdatto probably feels like a death trap a really fun death trap
A k swap mr2 is a good option too. Cheaper.
Not exactly it’s better in every way much more luxurious and much more better built so not really the same car
My 996.2 C2 Cab was on the same ramp in Center Gravity that afternoon! Next to the lovely and rare 993 C2S which was on an all day session! Mine took rather longer than your S2K and it was 21:30 before Chris was satisfied with the new Bilstein and Suspension arm set up (which he was correcting) and allowed me back on the road! I cannot speak highly enough of the CG team, their absolute dedication to their craft just has to be seen to be believed. I’m still in awe and look forward to going back there after Lockdown! 👍🏻
Excellent timing! I have partially 'Polybushed' my Focus ST MK3.5 (front WB rear bushes, rear engine mount and both front & rear anti roll bar bushes) and am considering finishing off the rear suspension points next year (got other mods to complete this year but will be buying the polyflex bushes as you did this year). I also had fears that I might over harshen the ride by doing this as (like you) I want a regular use road car that won't need it's bushes changing again in it's lifetime. Thanks for presenting your reassuring viewpoint on this - good news all round!
Oh forgot to say I am glad you are happy with your modifications too. Nothing worse than feeling like you have wasted money when trying to improve a thing.
I love the quantity of quality uploads recently. Especially the ones featuring your own cars.
Great video as always . Keep up the good work.
Great video I can't wait for the next update. That yellow looks just great.
This is actually my most anticipated project on YT right now
I fitted a mx5 front sway bar to the rear of my 2001 s2000 , vast improvement ,rear now feels more planted when hooning round the country lanes !
I've had my PB's on my FN2 for about 7 years now and they've had up fine. A bit of creaking a few months in, only when it rained, but nothing since. Still feels nice and tight.
No, polybusching a car does not ruin it. Got full Powerflex polybushings in my VW Corrado for over 8 years now, and its just as comfy as with the stock bushings, and my Saab 900 (and Saab 900ng) has some polybushings in it. Even the reaction arm motor mount on my Saab 9-5 Estate has a yellow powerflex bushing in it.
You just do not want to put immensely hard bushings in it, if the mechanical setup requires some give in the bushings. The purple powerflex is really nicely judged imo. But yea, I'm a fan. :P
I think I can't even get the normal bushings for my '61 car- most of the available aftermarket parts seem to be made of polyurethane
This, I have PF poly bushed half a dozen cars over the last 15 years and have never regretted ONE single bush upgrade. They make cars tiiight and new feeling.
Good plug for Centre Gravity. Many of my Porsche owner friends have used them and sing their praises
Can't wait for sunshine and the weather to warm up to drive my MX5 NC 2.0 Sport. It's snowing right now. All the best, Rob in Switzerland.
Awesome! I have to get my R8GT to those guys to check my geometry. Just to make sure it's delivering the best performance. Might see where it is with the ride height adjustment and see if it can drop by a few mm too while I'm there 😅
Hello from the US! I love following your journey. I recently bought a 2005 AP2 that I am in love with. Can’t wait to see how yours responds to the mods you make. Great video!
Well done I am really enjoying this build series your content is getting better and better.
Changing to 17" rims with wider tyres made a huge difference for me, I got a set of the facelift alloys and the difference in grip level is immense
From the previous owner's 205/225 budget tyres to 215/245 Uniroyals, it's night and day.
Totally agree with the 4X Wheel alignment !! Just finished a Boxster S build with replacement gearbox and all four corner suspension replacement including bushes. I can confirm after the Hunter 4X alignment the car handles like a Go-Kart :)
You are right about getting geo done being a must. Had the geo done on my old fn2 and it was night a day difference.
I poly bushed my ARB and gear linkage on an old Hyundai coupe. Transformed the car. It was just so much better on the corners. The gear linkage bushes were hands down the best modification I did to that car. Fitted them myself (it was an easy job) and stopped the gear changes feeling like they were guided by a H gate made of pillow.
I'm just impressed that you can reel off all this information while driving.
I particularly enjoy the videos on your own cars. Thanks.
Thanks Julian :)
I totally agree and know I probably couldn't do it even after 100 recordings.
I agree, definately a 'Schmee' iike ability with facts and figures - well done James!
Nice vid, enjoyed mine. Your roof straps are knackered, can tell because the roof is sitting high when you have it down, get your self some velcro straps and wrap them around the worn and offending items (when roof is up) and it will sit more flush.
Very keen to see this progress James, very keen indeed.
Owned a 05 S2000 GT for 6 years. Deffo need to have those valve adjustment checks on service, real quick job but a big impact. Also check the VTEC solenoid if it doesn’t head for the red. One of the best cars I owned, even brought it to Spain with me when I moved here. Great fun on the Spanish mountain roads.
poly bushing powerful fwd cars works quite well, if you get the right ones.
Looking forward to the next one !
Can’t wait to see this again in person in better weather
how have you not got more subscribers, you're my top auto channel
My experience with a Focus is that the front wishbones polybushes were superb. Engine mount polybushes... horrible!
It drastically changed the character of my Impreza.
NVH is off the chart
yeah it fucked up one of my cars too so god damn crashy over bumps anything sharp and the bang is horrendous....
Where can I get legacy poly bushings
Even as a VTEC noob I could hear how flat it was in that first Dyno run clip
Great car. Hasn’t aged at all. Looks as good today is it did at launch. Very interesting video, particularly bushing. It seems to divide opinion greatly. Thanks.
I think your doing the right thing with this build.
Really looking forward to seeing how this turns out.... or actually, what you think of the end result.
My 156 gta is going in for a fair bit of work in May. Head is coming off and rebuilt. New wizard exhaust manifold. New clutch and slave cylinder. KWV1 coilovers. Maybe poly brushing the ARBs, more maybe the upper wishbones. O doubt some other odds and ends will need tidying up too. It's been been off the road for the winter so has no MOT or I'd offer you a before and after drive, to see what you think of the 'money spent Versus outcome' 👍
Love the mods. Fantastic mate! I'll buy some polybushes soon. Mugen compliance bushes will be added also.
I hear good things about the Mugen ones
Oil clogged VTEC solenoid?
Was exactly my first thought. Lack of pressure or failed solenoid.
Dyno graph shape would easily tell you. Torque should have two humps if VTEC is working.
No chance. It wouldnt rev out as VTEC won’t engage if there is a solenoid issue. It would just run out of puff on the low cam lobe. Anyone who has tried to engage VTEC on a cold Honda engine will confirm this! Same result!
@@chrismc1977 Do they fail fully though or does partial clogging start a progressive reduction in power?
Hi James,
The Ohlins come with 10k front and 8k rear springs. If you watch all the Best Motoring videos when they detail the suspension specs, you will invariably see that the spring rates are either stiffer on the rear than the front or the same. So as a start, I would suggest you run the 10s on the back and the 8s on the front instead and see what you think to the ride and handling that way round. It will make the car rotate more, which is what these cars like. I actually went with 10k all round for my Ohlins on my car, as I am running a square set-up on mine (245/40s) using a set of OEM facelift 1 rears with the centres bored out to suit. Also FYI, it is possible to get adjuster extensions for the rears, so you don't have to remove the boot liners to adjust the damping - with these in place, you can do it simply by opening the boot. I have tagged you on Instagram so you can see what I mean :).
I would also add that de-catting these gives them a reasonable increase, as they usually run a a little bit rich as standard with the cats. You can see my video runs on my YT channel, where it went from 218bhp to 225bhp (182 to 189 @ wheels). Obviously that is proper English horses as opposed to the exaggerated American ones ;). My engine is stock apart from de-cat and UK exhaust mod. My dyno guy said he'd never seen a standard one produce more than 225 calculated flywheel (Dyno-Dynamics heart-breaker ;) ).
A good high flow cat like Berk will yield similar results to a decat.
Glad to hear about the bushes, had half of my s2000’s changed for the purple power flex ones a few years back and plan to get the remainder done hopefully this year :)
How’d you find them? I’ve ordered my first set this evening
@@ryanprice9238 I’ll be honest I’ve had them in that long now, I don’t know any different. But I’d say the purple ones at least aren’t noticeably more uncomfortable that oem ones. Fresh bushes no matter what they are will always freshen and sharpen things up. Mine are all on the rear so perhaps that’s why I’ve not noticed them a vast amount. I recon I’d notice the fronts more if I ever get round to having them done. Labour intensive job unfortunately 😓
@@adam_s2k thanks for the reply. A few people have advised the purple ones, a few people have said to stay away from any type of poly bush. For me freeing up the bolts is going to be the biggest issue, sprayed them all with oil over a few weeks now. Hopefully will have no dramas removing them 🤞
I love the original 16 inch AP1 5 star wheels. The Honda S2000 ROCKS 👌
toightt likaaaa tigerr hahah great honda s2000 sir, iam taking some notes from this to do some tasty upgrades on mine, the bracing does make a big difference i bet.. stay safe sir, this is the update i wait for
Good to know on the poly bushes.
important to also get a compression and leak down test while you have the valve cover off for the valve adjustment.
I've got ohlins on my s2000 and I'm very happy with them! standard spring rates too, I've heard people say that it can be better but I can't say that I'm looking to do anything else with it suspension wise. Drives really well. I'm also on 18s. Compared to 17s with semi slicks(ad08) and stiff sidewall the 18s with ps4 tyres is as comfy.
How do you find the fitment and clearance with 18s? I can't make my mind up whether to get 17" RG3s, or wait and get 18" RG4s lol
@@quest8795 not bad at all! have a look at my insta @edd90k you'll see some pictures of it. I went one profile lower on the tyres compared to 17s and my arches are mostly standard. Rear has had the bumper tab relocated but that's it.
@@edd90k oh yeah, that looks really good!
Really fills the arches
4:30 road salt really will do a number on a car
Had one span me into railings as coming from 26 mph to accelerating up to national speed sign. Oil slick on road took a mini out also as accident crew was with me. Haha. I love this car went for a boxster after much better on cornering. 03 plate I would have another that 9000 rev and me and motorbikes big smiles. I liked the minimal cockpit those seats kept me safe on my spin stepped out like a racing driver no drama. Enjoy I only had it for a week sad. 😊
Yes. Polybush is the biggest scam ever. Feels tighter in the first months then plastic cracks and it's shit. Oem bushes all the way or just go solid.
I’m with you lads. Got a full set of hard race OEM style bushes going into my Integra soon. A little but firmer than stock with none of the maintenance associated with poly bushes.
Depends on the car and the bush. I find certain bushes on bmw's its fantastic to add poly, like the front thrust arms for example. Really help the feel of the car, as the standard ones are void bushes. But other ones are horrible if changed. I think if there's a problem bush or a void bush it CAN make a good difference.
@@Decrepit_biker not saying the car will be worse. They are just shit in the long run. Might as well get either harder rubber or just ball joint it.
@@GetUpFalcon good move. Hardrace in my DC2.
Hey mate Stephen here, you might want to check the oil filter is secure... is a common fault that it becomes loose. You can get a clip to secure it.
Now those wheels I very much like, especially in silver
Been waiting for an update on the s2000 for ages as I’m planning a very similar build myself. I changed from the oem 16’S to oem 17’s recently running 225 fronts and 245 rears. I noticed a big improvement to rear end stability. I’ve now fitted 15mm hubcentric spacers to the rear and have to say it’s made a HUGE difference more so than the wheels. I’ve also installed a facelift rear ARB and with the wheels and spacers I have much more confidence. Highly recommend it.
Just 15mm on the rear, nothing on fronts?
@@NickEnglishPhotography1 just the rears for now I think if I went with spacers on the front turn in would be compromised
@@Matt-vo2vi Does it ever rub? I've heard that when lowered with 15mm spacers it will rub a bit?
@@NickEnglishPhotography1 doesn’t rub at all and I’m lowered on hks springs. Only around a 15mm drop. I could probably got to 20mm spacers or 255 tyres one or the other but not both.
Poly bushes made absolutely no difference in my SW20 MR2 but it is nice having the peace of mind knowing I'll probably never have to replace them
Get spoon rigid collar, it's looks like very good upgrade
Once you said that the car wasn't as powerful as it used to be, instantly I thought about carbon build up in the cylinder head being the culprit as the flow efficiency of the intake and exhaust ports can make a big difference on an engine's horsepower figure.
unlike the Miata (especially NA and NB), where suspension components need replacement around 60K miles, the S2000's suspension longevity is surprisingly good. It goes to show the level of quality and reliability Honda built s2000 to. After-all, it was Honda's 50th Anniversary present to itself, so no expense was spared.
Exciting stuff 👏
HA!!! The brake stopper kit is exactly what I built for my 1994 Mazda MX-6, V6, 5M. There was a distressing problem of the car not really stopping when pushed hard to do so. No one at the dealer could offer any reason why, so, under warranty and blindly, they replaced the master cylinder twice, changed fluid, changed pads...all to no avail. I suspected that the brake booster was flexing under pressure and, with someone pushing hard on the pedal, saw exactly that happening. So using angle aluminum (aluminium, to translate), I made just such a rig as seen in the brake stopper to reduce the sixteenth-inch of booster movement. I may have helped a bit but needed one more section in there to complete the brace but never got to it, I think Winter intervened and the following May I had moved on to a different car. But seeing this is great, in verifies my conclusion. At the time with the Mazda, I also had an Alfa GTV-6, whose brakes were rock-solid and whose booster didn't move a millimeter when pushed.
looking forward to getting some feedback on the ohlins. i'm close to pulling the trigger on a set. i polybushed mine, did the brakes and all the rusted bolts...but then I cut corners on the coilovers and bought tein flex z. I think they would be better on track than road....but i use it on the road only since lockdown.......and they are horrendous. The back end either bottoms out or bounces over bumps. I have a good neutral geo, 255/18s all round and not crazy low. Love the channel.
I can't wait to get them fitted either
Nice progress. 200 ish brake is a bit dissapointing. Get that sorted ASAP as you'll have mx5s overtaking you with that power. 😂. You have close set up to mine. If you like the gear shift, get an engine torque damper. Makes it EVEN better. Prop rifle bolt feeling and a much more direct drive train. Inexpensive, easy DIY install and great improvement,like the brake stopper. Can't argue with that. I also highly recommend dixcel type z pads. The price is high but they work well cold and brutal when hot. They also last forever so actually more economical than any other pads out there. If you don't want an aftermarket exhaust do the 'UK MOD' and let that vtec sing.
I like it when a reviewer pops on his mum's sunglasses half way through a review.
Polybushing: Depends on who you ask.
There's those that know and those that think they know.
Here in Au the cheapest S2000 today is a '99 with 120K miles for £20,000. Ouch.
I'm not certain on those tires but the OEM AP2/Facelift Bridgestone was meant for a 7.5" width wheel in 215 which is normally a 225. Those might also run large from the looks of them but now the standard option for staggered wheels for AP2/facelift cars is 225/45R17 Front and 255/40R17 rear unless your suspension is lowered which then you may need 245 rears instead for clearance if you do not want to modify your fenders
Janes I seriously have to thank you, you make some very challenging mornings less mental health crisis-y
Can do the valves your self with a feeler gauge and manual. It is really simple to do if you are mechanically minded.
I think we've seen JayEmm admit he is not mechanically minded nor is he Number27
Interesting video. I enjoy the technical information, ownership journey and the experts’ insight.
So did you go staggered wheels or just different tyre widths on same width rims?
Staggered wheels - 7.5" front 8.5" rear
I'm too afraid to modify mine, I can't wait to see what you do though :)
Low mileage so want to keep it as it is.
How many miles? My dads has like 90k and he says it has too much so he does a lot to it
@@tr6sh95 70k miles on it now
I fitted polybushes to my Integra DC2 and hated them. They squeaked, they crashed, they cracked, they wore out. I replaced them with OEM rubber bushes and it was much better.
As an owner since 1999 of an AP1 I will follow this with some interest. About 14 years ago whilst in the depths of France my engine management light came on ( the only time btw) The obd result was ( valve clearance's need adjusting) I do get them checked every 27k miles, but I doubt that is your issue, maybe something as simple as your air filter needing replacing. However keep up the good work. Finally, all that headwork for 20hp. You have to ask yourself is it worth it?
It's not for the power gains at the top end that I am doing it, but the mid range punch, the response and of course the noise
What I've found with polybushing various cars is than an increase in NVH is really dependent on where they are installed. On suspension parts etc they rarely induce any extra NVH but can be really bad if installed anywhere in the drivetrain - engine mounts, diff mounts etc so better to go for oem rubber there if not a track car.
Yeah I left out gearbox and engine mounts for now - they're still in good condition and I don't want to add any harshness I don't need to
Couldn't agree more - I had poly engine mounts (upper and lower) on my R53 Mini and it ruined it - the rear view mirror would vibrate so much at idle that you couldn't see out of it! Never again
Got poly diff mounts on my Z, but from what I have read, not keen to do gearbox and engine mount 'upgrades'
Glad to see you are sorting out the little things first. I would get the power issue resolved before you do any power mods on it as you dont want any headaches later on. I also think its a good idea to do a refresh on the bottom end. Did you get a lightweight flywheel as well?
Lightweight flywheel on the way. Why would you think the bottom end would want refreshing?
@@JayEmmOnCars Its just something I would do on my car if I am doing extensive work like you. I would get a blackstone oil analysis and that would give you a good idea on how healthy your engine is overall. Of course a compression and leak down test should be done too. If you dont have someone local that is well versed with OEM rebuilds on the block I would not do it in that case.
Jay em Abrams over here with the lens flares 😂
I have wanted to try an S2000 since I saw that the guy who has the Engineering Explained channel (I forget his name now :| ) bought one.
I didn't know you had bought one also. I hope there's going to be more videos about it from now on :-)
Jason 😆
The car i always wished i’d had but always chose something else for some reason...
Same here. Every time I’m in the market for a new car, I view at least one S2K. I once drove one aggressively round Pretswold (sp?) Hall and it was better than the Ferrari 360 I’d drove in the morning. But for some reason I just can’t bring myself to own one...
@@joshbanks6367 i am going to assume you already had your kicks that day with the car and don't need to put down so much money on it anymore
Two years later I can sell mine for $3k more than I bought it for. Cheapest car I've ever owned.
@@taylorc2542 thanks for reminding me of another reason i shoulda bought one
They're well known to make 200whp dyno dependant, Honda quotes 240bhp.
Btw in my experience discs don't add much. pads and oil will.
Sweet bins.
Might not be the valves causing a loss of power, get someone to remove and inspect the Vtec solenoid.
Those wheels would look fantastic if they were powder coated white imo.
The big forum debates (arguments) on if new OEM bushes are better to get than aftermarket polyurethane ones. Don't think that will ever be settled.
love my e46 with polly bushings
For the power also refresh lambda sensors - after 80,000 miles they're definitely shot long time ago.
It doesn’t use the lambdas at wide open throttle
When you quote the power at 200hp, was it 200hp as measured at the rear wheel? Or are you estimating the drivetrain loss and adding to the rwhp figure. 'Cause if it IS 200hp AT the rear wheel you can assume the crank horsepower is perhaps 220-230 depending on how lossy the drivetrain is. 200wrhp + 15% dt loss + honda lying by 7 hp + 3hp loss from ring wear etc.= 240 easily enough.
This is UK so they measure whp but annoyingly always quote a flywheel figure.
Some Dynos such as MAHA can accurately calculate flywheel from whp as it can work out drivetrain drag on the coast down.
@@ahemgee9542 Very good to learn that about UK car culture. I'm sure that will save me confusion in the future. Guess poor Jay's car IS down on power then, bummer.
@@ahemgee9542 Surely he would know not to compare dyno hp to the manufacturers crank horsepower.
@@taylorc2542 the dynos used here calucate crank hp usually.
Don’t know how much you’re lowering it but get some steering rack spacers and driveshaft spacers put in
When you’re doing a car vid but wanna look like a starsky and hutch extra 😂. Good video though as always!
Stock s2k’s dyno 200whp all day. Are you taking into account drivetrain loss? Coming from a 15 year s2000 owner who has modified mine to 220whp and spent quite a lot to get there the na mods were worth it for midrange, feel and drama they provide to the driving experience. Its not all about big numbers. I did cams, 70mm exhaust, intake, bored intake manifold, header, bigger throttle body, supertech springs and retainers, 4.4 final drive with reduced secondary gear, full spherical bushings, bbk, ohlins, thicker front sway bar, 17x9 wheels all around with 255 tires and a bunch more supporting mods. The responsiveness and overall feel of the car is incredible. More racecar feel and very direct. The power mods added 20whp up top but more importantly adds a lot to the midrange and now the screaming 9k engine is incredible. You’re on the right track, just can’t wait to see how you’re going to enjoy it when you are all done.
I also thought that - 200whp would be bang one. But considering he went to a specialist, you'd think they'd know 😂
*bang on
JayM. It's a bitza with all the added or improved parts either matching or not ! Has one thought about upgrading your rear diff' to a Quaife/Cusco 1.5 way ? V.
The only wheels i would ever consider for my Ap1 are Ap2V1
6:29 WHAT ARE THOSE?!
"Mum left them in the car when she borrowed it!"
Na, they're mine.
I think it's called style.
I was waiting for this comment
Ladies and Gentlemen...Elvis Presley has left the building 😅
Funny enough my 2003 S2000 has 87k miles and my 2000 S2000 has 318k miles on it.
I did hard rubber bushings/mounts all around (Mugen/Hardrace) except my Compliance bushings which are Poly with high temp grease and the Teflon tape trick, sway bar bushings are Poly which is fine, and the front UCA bushings are Delrin center offset bushings for more camber.
With some exhaust system upgrades and coilovers on my 2000 it weighs a good bit less than my low milage one BUT they both make within 10 Horsepower to the wheels.
glad its not end of Feb already......had to check...
Oh, I bring up an S2K yesterday and you go showboating in it today,,, wow....
Just kidding!!! I'm still drunk. Love ya man!!!
Not going to get the Spoon subframe collars?
Link to the aluminum brace thing please?
~240hp from Honda is a flywheel figure. I’m impressed that it was 200atw given that you feel it’s down on power from when you bought it!
202 is a calculated fly power
@@JayEmmOnCars copy that. Still, on a 20 year old high revving engine that’s probably been pushed hard, a 15% loss is still very good!
Judging by the underside it’s your typical English owned car - washed with a bucket and sponge 🧽 on a Sunday looking all shiny while the underside remains caked in winter salt and rots away!
So is it better with poly or better with new oem on this car?.
Really want to watch this but I can't find PART ONE anywhere? You got a link?
@James Harper thank you! I searched all through playlists and just couldn't see it. Cheers James 👍
Can you link part 1?
How much prep went into those wishbones? They look just as rusty as before but covered in paint.