Is it safe to switch between 357 Magnum and 38 Special in a lever gun?
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Is it safe to switch between 38 special and 357 Magnum in a lever gun without problems?
The 1892 Winchester is from @HeritageOfficiaI, & ammunition is from @TrueShotAmmo!
I *love* that this video gave an answer of "yes, but" and then even pivots and offers an answer of "yes, and" ... it's great
I love it when two of my favorite people interact on UA-cam.
I love lamp
Pp
Yeah-buts?
I was once asked to leave a range because I was shooting 38 special in my 357 lever action. Range safety officer was sure my gun was going to blow up.
Idiocy.
The range officer must be a member of the democratic party as they believe every stupid story about how everything gun related is dangerous. 😅
@@anangryranger you people are really sad. At least the democratic candidate isn't looking to ban videogames.
@@anangryranger I have zero love for either party, but this comment is just silly divisive bullshit
Sounds like a range officer without a clue to me... A gun (be it rifle or revolver) rated for .357 Mag will eat any flavor of .38 Special you care to feed it all day long, without so much as a hiccup. Just watch out for the "crud ring" when you want to go back to shooting .357 Mag - You may need to clean the gun before you can physically load .357 Mag into it after shooting .38 Special through it. The other way around? Not so much - .357 Mag usually won't physically fit into a .38 Special - which is a good thing, since .357 Mag is a much more powerful load, and in a .38 Special, is a good recipe for a kaboom. Very similar to .223/5.56 - A gun rated for 5.56 will eat as much 5.56 OR .223 as you care to feed it with exactly zero trouble. A gun rated for .223 may (probably will) be able to load 5.56, but doing so isn't a good idea due to the tighter tolerances of the .223 chamber, which can (not will, but CAN) cause overpressure and kaboom the gun. Then there's the .223 Wylde chambering, which is cut specifically to handle firing either .223 or 5.56.
I'm watching this because I bought a .454 Casull R92 and I heard the same thing about switching .454 and .45 Long Colt for the same reason. Thanks for confirming the problems fouling from the lesser cartridge can cause.
How's the R92 in .454 holding up, and where did you get it? I've been wanting one for a while.
Mee too!
I was looking at .41 mag!
Thanks for this explanation. I have two of these 38/357 lever actions and will pay attention to this situation. I've noticed a similar problem in my 38/357 revolvers.
Simple fix is to regularly clean the chamber and bore.
I found that out the hard way with my Henry X Rifle. Shot some 38 though it, and then my first 357 shot heat sealed the brass to the fouling from the 38. Had to take it to a gunsmith to fix it.
Got rid of all my 38 ammo. It is exclusively a 357 now.
Use sodium acetate and brush.
I clean regularly after range time.
I seem to remember the difference between the 38 SPL and the 357 Magnum quite demonstratively. This was back in the 1980s and I was shooting out in the Mojave Desert in So Cal. There was as empty butane tank that had be tossed out and previously used as a target. I had a Ruger Blackhawk with a 6in barrel, and reloaded ammo from a gun store. I started out with 38 SPL (lead bullets) shooting at the butane tank from about 10... maybe 15 ft away. I kept seeing big dents appearing on the tank and flattened bullets bouncing back (really slow since most of the energy was spent). I switched to 357 Magnum, and that put holes in the butane tank. That really showed me the difference between the two rounds.
This advice applies to other firearm actions and straight-wall cartridge "caliber families", too: if you shoot a bunch of the shorter stuff, clean out that deposit ring or your ejection will stick.
.22CB, .22 Short, .22 Long, .22LR
.32S&W, .32H&R, .327 Federal
.38Spl, .357 Mag, .357 Rem Max
.44Spl, .44Mag, .445 Supermag
.45 Cowboy, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .460 S&W
.45 cowboy?
Is that Schofield?
I am unfamiliar...
*... nevermind, just looked it up. Kind of a low power wildcat round for S.A.S.S. shoots.
Cool!
45-70 Govt../45-90 Win.
Short and concise. I like that. Some channels would have made this a 30 minute episode.
Thank you. It never crossed my mind regarding the possibility of a stuck casing. I have a Henry Big Boy 38sp/357mag so I'll be cognizant of your analysis going forward.
Another excellent and informative video! Thanks Karl!
My pleasure!
it took multiple times to hear "welcome to an episode of inrange" it sounded like "welcome turnips to inrange"
Turnips are welcome.
once heard, it cannot be unheard...
@@InrangeTv What about rutabagas?
@@InrangeTv In Britain we call turnips swedes. Are they permitted?
I thought he was talking especially to me!
I absolutely love lever rifles. Have a 92 & 73 both in 357/38 that match up with my 1875 Remington and colt 1873. Great video Karl explaining the two cartridges and the difference between them. Thank you for all your hard work and time Sir.🤠🇺🇲
I'm glad I watched this video. Based on the title, I thought it would be a low-effort, academic video to satisfy what I thought was a silly question made based on a viewer comment. I didn't think there'd be anything of value because I couldn't think of how a manually operated gun, provided no damage is done to the gun, could possibly "know" what round was fired before or after any given shot. As always, Karl is pedantic and practical!
Karl finally convinced me and I bought a .22 LR Henry lever gun to get acquainted with the platform.
I have a bunch of .22 shorts from my grandfather and I'm just gonna assume this same issue will apply between .22 short and long rifle.
Excellent and highly informative video as always Karl.
There is an easy work around. If you reload, load 38pl+p velocity ammo in your mag cases. Try to use a powder that takes up more space. Put that on your ammo boxes to let you know what you have. I don't shoot matches. That lever action is for pests, around the ranch defense (I live 60 miles from the TX - Mexico border), or an opportunity hog as I check the fences and livestock every day. I use an older Marlin 1894CB with Skinner Sights. My pet load is a tack driver.
Good topic for a new generation of shooters! This is/was common info known to .357 mag revolver owners who shoot lots of .38 spl. The one issue with lever actions is that they require a bit more disassembly to clean from the chamber end, leading to less frequent thorough chamber cleanings.
Also, you'll notice sticky chambers when hand-loading a revolver well before they get gunky enough to cause serious extraction issues. The mechanical leverage of the rifle system is what makes it easy to get something really jammed in the chamber.
I use reduced loads in a 357 case. To tell them apart, I use a different color primer sealant. To make whatever color primer sealant you want, start with New Skin or eqivalent and the color comes from a small section of ink from a ball point pen. Just cut a section about 10mm long and drop it in the New Skin bottle. In a few days the color will disperse. If you want darker or lighter color, just adjust the cut length.You can even use mixed colors. I have ammunition that is over 20 years old without any discoloration of the cases or change in performance. I use a Cotton swab to lightly coat the primer pocket before I seat a primer.
I used to reload my 357s at full power for several loadings, then relegate the cases to 38-level use. I'd simply color the backs of the cases with a permanent marker. But I like your system. Thanks!
@@dlc1119 My pleasure, enjoy.
This.
Answers a question I've had.
I use different colored sharpies for the same purpose. Much quicker and no need to make batches. (Ladies fingernail polish works for this too). KISS system for me!
thank you, and youre amazing man, lets see that 1 million folks
I keep subscribing and youtube keeps "disappearing" my subscriptions..
I had fired a lot of 38 out of my stainless Dan Wesson 715 357 and the cylinder had built up a lot of heavy rings in the 6 chambers, and I couldn't load 357 any more. The bore had a lot of buildup too. After cleaning it for several hours over a few days, I gave up. Then decided since everything had been lead ammo, I'd try firing 6 jacketed hollow point 38's through it and see if that does anything. Those 6 rounds completely scrubbed the bore clean and took off almost all the buildup in the cylinder. I was able to chamber 357 after that.
Spot on ! I had this very problem with serious extraction problems on a 2 1/2" barrelled S&W Mod 66 in the 1980s. With the short extractor on that gun, I realized this was a fatal flaw issue for using that gun in self defense. I switched to .357 Smiths with full length extractors, and carefully clean the chambers.
Salut Monsieur, I enjoyed your very informative and totally rational explanation of how and why such a problem could and probably would occur. I love my Winchester 1892 (Miroku) and my Uberti SAA. Living en France c’est possible to own and shoot a gun collection. Aussi j’ai 70 ans et pas forte donc je jamais tire .357 ammo! Bon courage. Cordialement RB.
Tangentially related, but I heard from a fellow gun nut that his boss had a .38 revolver that, friend's boss claimed, could use .357 magnum. Because it was marked "special" on the barrel LMAO.
I doubt guy ever saw .357 mag in his life, but if he ever come across it, I'd envourage him to find out for himself, kind of like Elmer Keith.
Chances are he wouldn't even be a able to close the cylinder if he put .357 magnum in it - cases are longer for a reason.
What grinders are for
Thanks for getting straight to the point and then providing a demonstration of that point.
Excellent info - Entertaining presentation 😁
Great content as usual, very informative especially when you switch from 38spl to 357 magnum. I learned that cleaning up after range time got rid of the fowling whilst it was still soft otherwise youd be scubbing until the cows came home.
Glad to help!
My next firearm would likely be a 357 lever gun. Thanks for the info Karl
This was very useful info, thanks Karl!
Glad it was helpful!
22 levers have this issue to a whole other level. 22 short is fun af but such a pain to clean.
Excellent PSA video! I never thought of that. Good to know. Thank you, Sir!
This is an excellent video. Thank you! I'm no competition shooter, but pistol caliber lever guns are always worth a watch.
Oh yeah, the fouling also caused the issue in my jammed revolver as well. And in PA, it's really humid.
For the reasons stated in this vid, I never shoot .38 Spl. in my Henry Big Boy. I'm a reloader, so when I was shooting CAS I fired reduced loads in .357 cases. Never had a problem with fouling. The same consideration applied with my SA revolvers; I only shot reduced loads in .357 cases. Doing this allows me to switch to full power .357 rounds without complications. As far as identifying my reduced power loads, that was easy; I only loaded them with round nose lead bullets. Full house .357 gets jacketed hollow points or (lead) semi wadcutters. Easy peasy.
I have a Marlin .44 lever gun and I switch back and forth pretty frequently between .44 mag and .44 SP, often multiple times in a day. You're not wrong about the fouling being an issue, but even in an extremely humid environment like the rural Midwest I've never had any problems with the gun associated with fouling in the rifle. I have had stuck cases in my first pattern M&P .38 and my Model 69 Combat Magnum from this issue, so I won't say it's not a problem, just that it's one I've never personally experienced in a lever gun.
It's a Marlin of course, so most of the problems are lifter jams or magazine jams.
The Atun-Shei Films video brought me here, you make great content!
Great moves! Keep it up!
Awesome! Thank you!
Excellent video
I have a lever gun in 44 Mag. When using Specials they don't always feed well. So when I want a Special level load I load it in mag cases so they feed better.
In your use with a 357, you can do the same. Load a light load in mag cases with one style bullet, then mag loads with another to tell the difference. With powder coating you can just color them in different colors. Green for specials, red for mags.
Casting bullets and loading your own ammo saves money as well as you can tailor your loads to your gun and usage.
Smith & Wesson increased the length of the 357 cartridge so that it would not chamber in a 38 special. The 357 works at a much higher pressure and would damage a 38 Special. The extra length was not for extra powder.
That's an important distinction to make, it's safe to shoot 38 spl in a 357 chamber. Not safe to shoot 357 in a 38spl chamber.
Smith & Wesson created the 38 S&W Special by lengthening the 38 Long Colt Cartridge. The 38 Short Colt Cartridge is a heeled bullet. 38 S&W is a totally different cartridge.
@gotsloco1810 nobody in this thread mentioned .38 S&W only .38 S&W Special, or more colloquially known .38 Special.
@@acester86
There are people that do not know the history of the cartridge development. There are those that might think 38 S&W was the predecessor to 38 S&W Special. Watch Duelist1954's video on the history of 38 cartridges. "19th century 38 caliber cartridges de mystified"
it was for both extra powder and extra pressure
EXCELLENT warning, explanation for why/how and solutions to avoid - not a problem I ever considered and I'm sure many others don't either.
This was extremely appreciated information. Thanks again
Love the noticeable sound difference between 38 and 357
I experience the same thing with the 357 revolver. Good point friend.
I had this problem with a colt lawman MK III after a steady diet of 38 spl it would not work with .357 all it took was thought cleaning.
Thanks for sharing this info with us!
Growing up learned when you get home from the range clean your weapon every time know learn it live it
Food for thought, in 1873 Winchester type rifles, you *MIGHT* find that .38 Special doesn't feed reliably or at all. That particular lifter style of action is more sensitive to cartridge overall length. There are ways to tinker with it but a lot of it requires handloading to do, so if you're going that route you can just run lighter loads in .357 cases.
Some 1873s run Specials just fine though, so it's worth trying if that's your goal, but don't buy more than a box or so until you know for sure. My Uberti is fairly finicky even with some .357 factory ammo so I'd actually advise the same thing for .357 as well.
If you happen to have a revolver in .357 to pair with, then not as big a deal. If it won't feed in the rifle, you can still shoot it in the revolver!
Let's name names. I found Winchester bulk 38 Special and Federal 38 Special both feed fine. Blazer 38 Special is a dud. Blazer will get wedged in the 1873 feeding path banging into the cartridge to extract. They look the same to me.
@@lightotw The .38s I've tried are HSM 158gr LFN cowboy loads and Federal red box LRN. Neither really fed at all, but the HSM was worse because the flat nose is pretty short, so the next cartridge gets into the lifter and jams it up.
.357s are mostly fine with jacketed flat points. I haven't gotten any SWC to feed though. They'll work in the lifter fine but snag on the chamber.
@@matthewjayjack8143 The difference is in the bullet shape. .38 Special Flat nose / wad cutters will not cycle in a .357 lever action, they will jam. However, round nose and even semi flat nose will cycle just fine so long as the .38 Spl ammo is made to SAMMI full length specs.
@@scottthornton9237 Mine wouldn't cycle Federal/American Eagle .38 spcl 158gr lead round nose. And that's a long bullet profile. The short rn from HSM doesn't feed either but I'm less surprised there.
@@matthewjayjack8143 Hmm, must be something with the Uberti. Perhaps a burr on the lifting block? IDK. I have not had any issues feeding full length round nose in either my buddies Winchester or either of my Marlins. I have gone through both Marlins actions deburring and polishing out any rough edges. (This surely make the gun run smoother!). It was my friends Win 97 that put up a fit with the semi wadcutters. After clearing his Win. I never even attempted Semi wadcutter rounds in mine.
I nic-name the .357 lever guns "22's for Adults".) Fun guns to shoot and quiet! (Like a .22) compared with the big noise makers that are normally found at the range.
Great info. Thanks!
You bet!
Very helpful!
Great info! I've been considering purchasing an insert barrel from Chaszel in 357 Maximum that also chambers 357 mag and 38 special for my H&R Handi-Rifle 223/12ga combo gun. The lesson you provide here is timely info. : )
Thanks for sharing , Good to Know ..
I don't have a .357 levergun (just a .45-70) but I've had this problem in revolvers, shooting .38 all day and then close to the end of the range day loaded some .357 just to end the day with a bang, and had some trouble with fouling. Nothing stopping me from loading a .357 mag case at .38spl pressures, I do load my own .357, but bulk .38spl is so cheap I just really can't justify the time haha. anyways, great video, and definitely one i'll bookmark to send to people with the question in the title.
Bottom line, keep chambers clean. Good advice for any gun, just more important in certain gun types. Especially in short/long cartridge applications like this.
(One alternative is to load your '38 specials' in 357 Magnum brass, keeping them separate and well marked. May need to tweak your powder charges a hair. But this assumes you reload...)
I learned that in 1963 with a Stevens model 70 visible loader .22 s/l/lr.
You heard it here first - make sure to clean your dirty ring before switching from a little one to a big one, cowboy.
So I sat and watched and smiled and thought that all makes sense, then went to the range and ran a couple of 357's through my Rossi 92 after a bunch of 38's and presto; one case seperation with half well and truly lodged in the chamber.
brass rod, picks, bronze brush, lead slugs driven from muzzle to breech and it's still lodged in there, so some tips on how to get the bugger out would be handy too! :D
I think you were fair overall. You can make a 100 videos like this, so much material
UA-cam's algorithm does indeed promote this channel. Even before I subscribed, it routinely put this channel's content on my feed for suggested videos.
Great info
Thanks
It‘s not levergun - it‘s lovergun... 😆😂🤣 Just have to love them! 😎
Anecdotally, I have never run into this issue, though I have a theory as to why. I routinely shoot several hundred rounds of lead nose 38 and jacketed 357 magnum in my 92 during range visits without issue. What I assume is an important factor is that I seldom shoot extendedly with only 38 special, that is to say, I will shoot 100-200 and then 50-100 of 357 magnums, and I suspect, that the more frequent chambering of 357 magnum cartridges provides a "cleaning action" simply by rubbing against the buildup ring with the case frequently enough to prevent a significant enough amount of buildup to cause problems.
I'm thinkin' about gettin' me an appointment to go down and get my ring cleaned THOROUGHLY.
FWIW, non-cowboy .38 can spin a spinner. I did so on the alien stage for the moonshine staff match. It did take almost an entire tube of 14 from my 1873 courtesy of a couple misses.
If a person handloads, it's also very easy to down load 357 Magnum to really dial in the lower velocity they want. If someone doesn't handload but has thought about starting, 357/38 is a great place to start. The same reloading dies work for both cartridges, it's easy to get started, and they offer an incredible range of versatility across their various loadings. If I could only own firearms in one chambering, it would be 357 Magnum, because I can make it do most anything I need it to do in the realms of recreation, hunting (small game and big), and concealed carry/self defense.
Ran into this issue with my Rhino 60DS. Ran a box of cheap 38s at the indoor range and then had to bust the gunk out of the cylinders when I loaded 357.
Great video as usual. Wish I lived out west nearby. I would be a deadeye regular.
We run this division at all Brutality matches, including West Virginia.
Brutalitymatches.org
I had a split casing in a brand new Henry Big Boy X in the first 100 rounds. If I'm going to shoot 38 & 357 at the same time roughly I first put a CLP-soaked brush in the chamber before changing to 357, etc
Headspaces on the rim and lower pressure. It goes boys!
Nice video
I know people that had problems
I helped them as they reloaded
I showed them 2 ways to overcome the problem
Either reload some 357 Mag brass to what velocity a 38 Special loaded at , just marking the cases as reduced power
Or if they just wanted to load 38 Special brass
Load the 38 Special at the same OAL as 357 Mag with Powder Coated Cast bullets
Then they could load the 38 Special with almost the same loads as 357 Mag
But the cast bullet would be crimped LONG , well lower on the bullet than where the crimp grove is
Resulting in about the internal space in the case as a 357 Mag
BUT Again they must mark these loads as to not even try to use them in a weak 38 special revolver
I witch between 44mag and 44 spcl in my marlin fairly regularly. Never have I had any issues. This was also the case when I had my Rossi 92 in .454 casull. Maybe it’s because I keep my stuff pretty clean.
Maybe they (magtech) could offer a “.357 Special Cowboy”, being a .357 cartridge length with a .38 Special powder load / chamber pressure, utilising a plastic spacer much like a gas-seal in a shotgun shell to take up the case volume. It would interchange fully with the magnum cartridges, but be marked with, say, an orange band to indicate the lower power.
Another alternative is to manufacture a ‘Cowboy .38 Special’ with a heeled bullet (similar to a .22LR or magnum) with the heel extending to the same as the .357 case length. This would potentially clear the chamber fouling to the same length each time the rifle is loaded.
🎶My gun's down, down, down. From that ring of fouling.... 🎵
Putting a new _spin_ on _targets._ 😊
Great, now i want one
This happened to me. The 38 special case split. Half of it was ejected, and the other half stayed in the chamber. It was easy to get the stuck case out, but it stunk because it shut down that day's shooting.
Cartridge fouling using is common .. but selection of clean cartridges would help and a hundred yard target for a 38 round is doable
I practice with 38 and hunt with 357 and yet to have a problem
I had a Winchester 1892 in 44mag. While it would shoot 44 specials it didn't really feed very well. So, if I wanted super low recoil rounds, I'd load 44 special loads in 44 mag cases seating the bullet to an apropriate depth.
Very educational. When you recommended a .357/.38 lever gun, I did wonder if .38 could spin a spinner. Is there a .45 lever gun load you recommend for Dead Eye Brutality?
Maybe I'm not first with this comment, but Slixprings makes a neat little scraper that they say will remove the buildup from shooting 38 in a 357 chamber. I have not built up enough crud to confirm this but have run it through my Uberti 1873 replicas (Colt SAA and levergun) and so far no problems.
It's safer than a revolver I think, but it all depends on the load. I used a Ziploc bag of someone's reloads of .38 SPL in my new .357 MAG revolver because that was all the gun store had. And after shooting 2 cylinders, the first was fine, the second jammed because the casing expanded and the primer backed out jamming the gun. Lucky for the the owner of the store also did gunsmithing and fixed it for me.
38spl was designed around black powder, which is less dense than modern stuff. So it's easy to accidentally double-load 38s, because a standard load of modern smokeless is just a drop in the bucket.
I wondered about this same subject shooting 40s&w through my 10mm
Nice ! Good job. .357 mag is my carry gun. Time for a long gun.
Had that fowling problem a few years back shooting 44 special. Just realized what was actually happening. XD
Great video!👍🏽😊❤️🇺🇸
When pistol shooting, I used to down load .357 classes, with light loads it eliminated the bullet jump,
Your Rossi runs nice and smooth with 357Mag. Mine struggles to feed 357 brass. The lifter often fails to lift them. 24" Oct barrel model. Tack driver!
Mine runs a little wonky with 38’s when you run it at speed, but runs a little better with 357. I just reload 357 brass to 38 special velocities. That will also solve the problem Karl is talking about. From what I have witnessed the model 92 functions better in 44 and 45 cal than the 357/38. But it is really only noticeable when you try to go fast. It is still a great gun. Any one getting into shooting cowboy guns in competition needs to start reloading or be rich. You sure aren’t picking up even 38 at anywhere near $13 a box. And the price on 45 Colt factory ammo is a kick in the nut sack.
It's been like 20+ years since I did SASS cowboy matches, and I know there are a lot more lever action options out there at all price ranges. But I seem to recall that some leverguns were a bit finnicky feeding the shorter cartridges , particularly the cheaper ones.
I love the simplicity of the fact that the solution to this problem basically boils down to "just clean your frigging gun!" :)
No, it doesn't, because that doesn't apply during a competition where "just cleaning your gun" is viable, nor does it discuss how hard it can be to remove that ring.
@@InrangeTv Ah, I see. I was thinking over time. If you clean your gun often enough for the ring not to build up, wouldn't that prevent the problem?
Ive had this exact thing happen in my .357 revolvers, but not severely.
oh yeah, I think your right !
I have an old GP-100 from 1988 that has bad carbon rings in the cylinder. It doesn't help that it mostly gets 38 spl reloads through it these days. The occasional 357 do stick a little, especially after being fired.
hey karl, any love for the 1894's? 30-30 is one of my favorite recoil impulses out of lever guns
My wife has a Inter Arms 92 SRC..she runs mainly 38 special..being we also have 3 38 spcl pistols we dont even mess with the 357...after every time it is shot it gets cleaned real good. We don't shoot lead through it if possible.
I have personally seen someone have a 357 case split in their lever gun and leave half the case in the chamber. He was very sad that his range trip ended five rounds in
A similar issue can result from shooting a lot of .22 Short in a gun chambered for .22 Long Rifle. The fouling must be cleared asap or if humidity is present corrosion of the chamber(s) can also occur over time.
Better than any video game.
You can go either way with no problem so long as you clean regularly. Which you should be doing anyway.
I came into this video expecting some issues with velocity and accuracy, or wonky feeding from the tube if they're inconsistent length.
Didn't know about the carbon ring. Thanks Karl!
Bonus: I first learned the .357 and .38 thing from......Fallout New Vegas! You can load .38 into a .357 no problem!
Less power and wear but that's it.
I just can't believe there's anybody that don't know this already !
Read the comments.
8:02 That last shot sounded really underpowered.
Thinking same thing. Likely one of the .38 Special loads was first into the tube.
@@kaveman9 I think you're right, my first thought was an underloaded cartridge but now that I went back to the .38 Spc part it was pretty much identical to that.
If you have a 357 mag and you want to use 38 special if it cycles 38 special reliably then carry on , some don’t cycle so well with the slightly shorter case length but there is no safety issue, i always ran my 357 on 38 special at the range
7:01 - donk, the downside of vertical ejecting cases.