#5 P1 Ralph Ellis: Predynastic Stone Vases used Royal Cubit Metrology

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  • Опубліковано 10 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 103

  • @KarlKarsnark
    @KarlKarsnark 9 місяців тому +6

    Tanks for having Ralph on the show!

  • @lukecaverns
    @lukecaverns 10 місяців тому +17

    They really are some of the strangest artifacts I've ever seen. Even the vases that are not precisely cut are STILL astonishing in their 5,000bp+ origins. No matter where they come from, the findings will be monumental

    • @East10Outpost
      @East10Outpost 10 місяців тому +3

      Is there an example of precision like this in the South American/Mesoamerican world you know of? Cutting anomalies I know certainly exist, but is there anything like the vases that so clearly demonstrates advanced stone working capabilities to this level? I would be curious to know.
      And sorry if my comment on Julian's video pissed you off, I threw shade before I had made it through the whole deal and that was my ignorance. I occupy a lot of time in this space (even creating my own stuff now) and have a ton of respect for you and just wanna be clear about it, cause you'll definitely see me around in your comments and videos and I don't want you to think I'm a douche troll.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +3

      @@East10Outpost yes there absolutely is. The Fuente Magna Bowl. Serious out of place artifact.
      www.historicmysteries.com/fuente-magna/

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +4

      @lukecaverns no doubt Luke! Lots more research and analysis to come. I’m going to make a video on just the spinner, and show all of its features and discuss it in detail. I’ll show the provenance and let everyone know everything I know about it.

  • @davidcoles1688
    @davidcoles1688 10 місяців тому +6

    Excellent Guest, Thank you Matt for introducing me to Mr Ellis. Really appreciate the time you put into these Vases. The first time I had seen them and discovered how many existed, and where most of them were found shouts to me out of place objects. ❤

    • @realistJB
      @realistJB 10 місяців тому +2

      Particularly the fact that there are numerous broken examples at Saquara still in situ. I think this puts there authenticity beyond doubt.

  • @bullenovitch
    @bullenovitch 9 місяців тому +2

    Great episode!

  • @East10Outpost
    @East10Outpost 10 місяців тому +8

    I love that you obtained these and scanned them Matt. Thank you for what you are doing for this community. Keep up all of the incredible work you're doing to give these voices a platform. NO host out there is informed like you are. The dialogue you are able to have with these guests has revealed as many interesting things as the data itself. It is wild to me how academia is so contentious on the subject. Is the goal of higher education not to learn more? If there wasn't an organized effort to suppress anomalies like this these are exactly the things academia should be praising and doing themselves. That leaves us with either two possibilities, 1. Organized Information Control Campaign or 2. Academia has learned all there is to know about everything and there are no more mysteries or things to learn. Which seems more plausible? To a reasonable man it's clear.

  • @loriannepresnell7951
    @loriannepresnell7951 6 місяців тому +1

    Ralph Ellis😍 best guest EVER! Such an amazing intellect and a treasure trove of knowledge, truly an erudite gent of remarkable value to mankind. Great presentation!!!

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  6 місяців тому +1

      He’s amazing and he has so much more to share I’ll have him on annually.

  • @SuenTV
    @SuenTV 10 місяців тому +2

    Great interview matt, keep up the great work.

  • @realistJB
    @realistJB 10 місяців тому +3

    Wonderful presentation guys, problem is I'm now addicted to this fascinating mystery to which there appears to be little interest or investigation (apart from yourselves) conducted. The unfinished obelisk being another prime contender for more research, all done with 'pounding stones' well maybe if you didn't mind waiting 2000 years or so for the finished product, clearly some over technique was being used.

  • @KarlKarsnark
    @KarlKarsnark 9 місяців тому +4

    Interesting to note that the (1/6) value is approx. (0.16667), which is itself approximately (1/10; 0.1) the value of the Golden Ratio (1.618); Where (0.1 x 1.618 = 0.1618).

  • @Abighafari
    @Abighafari 10 місяців тому +2

    Thinking about these vases, what strikes me is the sheer confidence in crafting them! This confidence is crucial because mastering the art or technology requires creating hundreds of these pieces. Where are the thousands of prototypes showcasing the evolution of the machining technology or skills? Precision doesn't come overnight; even with modern techniques, multiple prototypes are often needed. The existence of these vases suggests a strong belief in their skill or technology. The question is, where did that confidence stem from?

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +2

      @abighafari well most them aren’t precise. Some of them are very precise. And 4 of them (that we know about so far) are impossibly precise. They are all red granite. So there are different levels of precision, but in Egypt and in South America, we find that the most precise artifacts are often the oldest. I think that’s the case with the vases too.

  • @JJones-cl4dm
    @JJones-cl4dm Місяць тому +1

    Wow I just watched your Billy Carson interview you have really grown!!!! Good job I love the show

  • @timgstar3585
    @timgstar3585 Місяць тому +1

    We are definitely missing something from history and what ever it is it's incredible

  • @eeyzas2
    @eeyzas2 7 місяців тому +2

    Fascinating episode. I love these "vases" and I can see then being a real key part of moving this entire topic of lost tech forward. No doubt in my mind that these artifacts are machine made and not hand made. Been working with hand tools and machines my whole life (admittedly not in stone but the principals cross over) and there is just no way that these tolerances of dimension and proportion by the human hand.
    One point I'd like to add, I keep hearing that the areas between the handles couldn't be made on a lathe. They could be made on a slightly modified lathe with some kind of live tooling (a cutter or abrasive that is spinning rather than stationary) while the lathe isn't turning. You would then turn the part to remove the material between the handles. I can't say how easy it would be to recreate that accuracy but that shape certainly can be created on a lathe without need for 5 axis milling
    Loving the channel, thank you for sharing

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  7 місяців тому

      Thank you for the comment! That makes sense about a modified lathe being able to make the cuts, although I can’t quite picture what you mean. Could you describe how it might work?

    • @eeyzas2
      @eeyzas2 7 місяців тому +1

      I tried to reply with a video demonstrating a similar technique but I guess it got deleted.
      Basically, hold the vase in the lathe chuck. Then come in with a spinning cutter or grinding tool. The lathe isn't spinning but can be turned to remove the material between the handles. Either way it's still mind blowing, just a small detail I thought worth mentioning

    • @eeyzas2
      @eeyzas2 7 місяців тому

      If you search "live tooling lathe" on yt there is a 30second video near the top of the results that shows something similar, it's computer controlled but same can be done on no cnc machine lathe

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  7 місяців тому

      @@eeyzas2 nothing got deleted. Try again

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  7 місяців тому +1

      @@eeyzas2 some seem spun, some clearly aren’t. Some are incredibly symmetric but in an oval shape. Some are round. It’s very odd. More research needs to be done to understand the manufacturing methods.

  • @mikelee9886
    @mikelee9886 10 місяців тому +3

    I don't think that people understand how huge of a big deal that these vases are. I have a feeling, that this is something that we REALLY weren't supposed to figure out. It's like it's a secret that slipped through, because of the arrogance of those who "gatekeep" all things ancient Egypt. Like the curator at the Egyptian museum said, "we weren't concerned with their construction, only what was in them". And because of that, they didn't expect that these things would reveal the secrets that they are. People who don't understand things like machining, have no idea what they are looking at when they see these. They just think that they were carved from rock and polished with sand, no big deal. Only people who work with machining and know a bit about geology and how these things are formed understand what it takes to make these things. And now that we know how insanely perfect they are, it means that they HAD to have been machined... which opens up a can of worms that they never expected. Keeping the historic timeline as it is important to the "gatekeepers" for obvious reasons, like not wanting their entire careers to mean jack shit... but there honestly seems to be more to it than that. There's SUCH a visceral response to any suggestion of ancient high technology, that it brings to mind the line "she doth protest too much". If they honestly just thought there was nothing to these ideas, they would just laugh or ignore it. If they thought there WAS something to this, and they were honest, they would be fascinated and want to investigate themselves. If they were simply corrupt, they would just dismiss it and call us dumb and have a bit of a laugh, and show off their best work (which is substantive, no doubt), but they react as is we're discovering something that they already know, that they REALLY don't want us to know. It's like talking about the JFK assassination or 9/11 or January 6th, they react in such an aggressive and weird manner, that it truly feels like there is some kind of secret that they are hiding, and these vases appear to be part of the key to figuring out what that secret is.

    • @RalphEllis
      @RalphEllis 10 місяців тому +1

      I did find a lot of resistance from academia, when I asked museums if I could scan their display items (at my own expense). Only (some of) their vases have a certified provenance.
      R

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +3

      @mikelee9886 it never ceases to amaze me how frequently and consistently people disregard genuinely huge and important big news, while focusing on meaningless nonsense.
      Matt

  • @andymccracken4046
    @andymccracken4046 10 місяців тому +5

    I have Ralph's Thoth book beside me on my bookshelf, must be over 20 years since I read it, probably should read it again.
    Good video and very interesting. I think it would be worth doing a short video about the provenance of the vases, and provide links to some copies of your documentation, because I have seen many comments saying Ben's vase has "zero provenance" and therefore should just be ignored. I don't think they do have zero provenance but I can't point to any exact details either.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +2

      @andymccracken4046 will do. Happy to share. It’s about as good of provenance as you can get on the thin walled and spinner 1.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +2

      Also we do have a part two which will be pretty long and it dives into the great pyramid, Avebury etc from his books.

    • @andymccracken4046
      @andymccracken4046 10 місяців тому +2

      @@mattbealllimitless All good, I've been to Avebury a few times, it makes a nice day out and there is a good pub in the village. On the other hand, I have been aware of these machined items from Egypt for many years and, as someone with a science background, I am impatient for data.

    • @kklh7918
      @kklh7918 10 місяців тому +1

      What's the criticism beyond the fact that they could be modern fakes?

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +2

      @@kklh7918 the original criticism was that they could have been made with primitive tools or a primitive lathe. But basically everyone gets it now that it’s impossible because of the precision.

  • @zendokill558
    @zendokill558 Місяць тому +1

    Love your podcast, massive fan of Ben and this whole subject. I have been 3d printing the 3 vases from Ben website. Do you have any more vase STL files? Keep up the good work, thanks.

  • @KimFowler-tg4si
    @KimFowler-tg4si 10 місяців тому +6

    Egyptologist give us the Royal finger everyday

  • @FlyMaQ1
    @FlyMaQ1 4 дні тому

    Can't wait till "Hopefully" Mr. Beall chooses to sell 3d printed versions 😁

  • @Milton-y4w
    @Milton-y4w 10 місяців тому +2

    I understand Ben from uncharted x has done the majority of disclosure on these vases

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +3

      @user-bh2ej9nx2y yeah Ben has done incredible work on the topic. He came to Danville with me and Adam Young to work with the Dunn’s. He’s made 4 or 5 amazing videos on the topic. He and I are going to collaborate once he’s back from Egypt on another video update.

    • @Milton-y4w
      @Milton-y4w 10 місяців тому +2

      @mattbealllimitless thanks Matt for the mind boggling information that you and the team have presented . This has and will change the narrative going forward.

    • @AustinKoleCarlisle
      @AustinKoleCarlisle 9 місяців тому

      @@mattbealllimitless that is amazing. hopefully some museum pieces can get scanned soon.

  • @East10Outpost
    @East10Outpost 10 місяців тому +4

    It is very curious the way that the handles are offset. I wonder if that intersection point based off of the trajectory of angle represents any significant math ratios or representation 🧐 it is interesting that it would form a triangle, could be the same ratio as the pyramids maybe? Besides an expression of math i can really only think it would be from the machine process. A necessity for production maybe? Wild.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +3

      The triangle that the lugs form would be good to look at. I’ll try to remember that. Right now I am digging into volume of each of them. There are a lot with 75, 100, 150, 300, and 600cc. Clearly they were created with a specific volume. Which makes the manufacturer that much more impressive. More to come on this.

    • @East10Outpost
      @East10Outpost 10 місяців тому +2

      @@mattbealllimitless I love this. Matt I believe you're really going to help usher in something special. Keep pushing hard. You're on the cusp of helping re-write history. These are so special in ways people are only just starting to understand. These will help reignite the general person's imagination and wonder when the world is forced to accept these marvels. They are small little vases, but they have a lot to prove.
      This will one day dwarf your accomplishments in business. This was your calling. God bless🙌🏻

    • @AustinKoleCarlisle
      @AustinKoleCarlisle 10 місяців тому +1

      @@mattbealllimitless THAT is amazing. Would love to know their resonant frequency.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +1

      @@AustinKoleCarlisleis there an easy way to calculate that? Need to know shape of the interior, wall thickness etc

    • @andymccracken4046
      @andymccracken4046 10 місяців тому +1

      @@mattbealllimitless I'm not expecting resonance to be part of the design - but it might be. A simple test would be to hang a vase by a thread tied through the handle hole and give it a tap with a drum stick. Record the sound and then run it through some suitable music software to determine the pitch.

  • @nurmi90
    @nurmi90 9 місяців тому +2

    Suppose the next question would be to know the angle on handle holes and Ralph can figure out the numbers for that too

  • @79Cody440
    @79Cody440 2 місяці тому

    Just an observation on the vases, most of the handles of the vases are angled from top left to bottom right so they could not have been cut as a taurus around the vase and then cut and blended in between because they would run parallel with the rest of the body if so. But they dont. Does that make sense?

  • @matthewwarner692
    @matthewwarner692 4 місяці тому +1

    did you measure the wall thickness on any of these

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  4 місяці тому

      Yes. Some are extremely precise/symmetric. Some are not.

  • @Adam-gy3tw
    @Adam-gy3tw 3 місяці тому

    Ancient mirrors were created using pounding stones over many generations. Skilled craftsmen would pass on their craft and projects to their children generation after generation. It would take 4-5 generations to eventually get a glossy mirror finish.

    • @timothyappleseed2986
      @timothyappleseed2986 3 місяці тому

      Yeah, and if you break it, you get bad luck for 7 generations.

  • @kenpontelandolfo478
    @kenpontelandolfo478 4 місяці тому

    I found it interesting that the handles were intentionally not aligned. Curious if you drew a line through both handle holes at what distance would they intersect..

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  4 місяці тому +1

      Lots of times they aren’t even flat they are both angled bottom left to top right. We made a short in that few months ago

  • @timothyappleseed2986
    @timothyappleseed2986 3 місяці тому

    If these vases are made to spin, then the nubs are probably there to balance it. That is why they would not be exactly straight across from each other.

  • @curbina
    @curbina 8 місяців тому +1

    These objects are truly fascinating, and the fact the best “debunk” the naysayers can come up with is “modern forgery” is laughable.

  • @mike-papag
    @mike-papag 2 місяці тому

    If the vases are carrying say a special oil or pharmaceuticals, and the vases were to be tied by a vehicle of some sort (say a wagon) the offset of the handles would create an angle of the rope towards the wagon that would make vase move less during transport. That said, tying these vases onto the side of a vehicle does sound a bit rough for the elegance they carry on their own creation.

  • @5Maxforce
    @5Maxforce 2 місяці тому +1

    Are two of them ever exactly the same? The nubs seem a like locking mechanism for the vase to be inserted into something

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  2 місяці тому +1

      Never seen two the same. Have seen 2 that are similar, the rest are very unique.

  • @FICTIONALCHARACTERF
    @FICTIONALCHARACTERF 3 місяці тому

    Sounds like measurements of the angle emerging from the holes in the handles has not been done. That would be interesting to find out. Like at the point where the two intersect, does that distance bare some significance? Also, I've listened to a few different podcasts in relation to these vases and to my recollection no one has brought up whether any of these measurements correlate to astronomical occurrences, as has been explored with the Pyramids.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  3 місяці тому

      To me it’s unlikely that the angles of the holes have much meaning mathematically. In many cases the lines would never cross. It’s also generally not a single drill hole on the larger pieces, it’s two that meet in the middle, so there is no clear line that could be projected into space. On the smaller pieces it would be difficult to choose a line. So I have stayed away from it but the scans are on Ben’s website of three or more of them so someone could look at this. Just my thoughts hope that’s helpful thanks for comment and thinking about the topic there are lots of unknowns about them for sure

    • @FICTIONALCHARACTERF
      @FICTIONALCHARACTERF 3 місяці тому +1

      Yes indeed, fascinating. Thanks!

  • @SCEPSIS-zw9wv
    @SCEPSIS-zw9wv 8 місяців тому +1

    Sir Isaac Newton was right with the value of the Royal Cubit, for 0.52363636... is exactly between 0.523 and 0.524
    So, Pi was 3.14181818..., exactly 1.2 times bigger than 2.6181818... (Fibonacci numbers 144 / 55).
    1.2 is of course the square root of 1.44 and the multiplication using the very same numbers gives the diameter of the EARTH, because 55 x 144 = 7,920
    The logical next step then is the calculation of the EARTH'S circumference: (144 / 55) x 1.2 x (55 x 144) = 24,883.20 miles
    No scientist or mathematician has ever come up with these intriguing possibilities.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  7 місяців тому

      @scepsis-zw9wv newton really only had the ability to come up with his numbers using the kings and queens chambers, because the base perimeter of the pyramid was covered in sand. But, he might be right. I think measuring the small stuff, vases, will tell us more about the exact number than measuring the pyramid’s exterior, which is eroded, quarried, broken up, and the interior (which may be slightly crushed inward and smaller). I hope to find the exact number. It’s looking like it a lot closer to 524mm than 523.6mm based on early vase measuring, but I’ll know more in a few weeks

    • @SCEPSIS-zw9wv
      @SCEPSIS-zw9wv 7 місяців тому

      @@mattbealllimitless Hello Matt, please read my comment in the mail I've sent. It'll make things a lot clearer.

  • @KkfightStarBaal
    @KkfightStarBaal 10 місяців тому +2

    Hey man, maybe use your Microphone next time you do the Intro instead of your Webcam.
    Other than that, great guest!

  • @alexparr8853
    @alexparr8853 10 місяців тому +2

    Did the egyptians have diamonds ?

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +3

      @alexparr8853 hey, nope, my understanding is that no evidence for diamonds have been found from the Egyptians. No jewelry, not in their writing or in any tools.
      Matt

  • @ethanwilliam9944
    @ethanwilliam9944 10 місяців тому +1

    It is NOT IMPOSSIBLE to recreate these vases with primitive tools. Go to the channel "SGD sacred geometry decoded" and he clearly demonstrates and explains how they were made. As for precise vases found with chicken scratch writing on them, are often explained as, " if they could make it so precise then why are the hyroglifics Shakey and unevenr" the explanation for that is simple, the person or people that made the vase was an expert and the one who scribed the hyroglifics was just your average person marking the jar" we buy jars from the store that all look the same and then take a marker and write on it what it contains etc. I suspect in their case it's no different. Please don't just take the word of Ben and these other guys. Do the research on the other side and then decide. I love the lost ancient tech story too but I just don't think it is the truth. Check out the " SGD sacred geometry decoded" channel and the guy actually makes one with copper drills and shows from start to finish how it works.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +2

      @ethanwillaim9944 it is completely impossible. The vases created on SGD are not at all precise. If you’re not an engineer or metrologist, it’s confusing and difficult to understand what 4/1000 of an inch means, but that is impossible with primitive tools.

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +2

      @@RalphEllis well said and accurate.

    • @AustinKoleCarlisle
      @AustinKoleCarlisle 10 місяців тому +2

      Regarding the crystal ewers, we actually don't even know how they were made or when. All we know is that they came from Egypt. They could very well be evidence of unknown ancient technology, as well.

    • @ethanwilliam9944
      @ethanwilliam9944 10 місяців тому

      @@mattbealllimitless "completely impossible" you know this how? You know the vases presented by Ben are precise how? Do you have any idea who the so called "experts" are? I don't claim to have the answers but saying it's impossible because you watched a few UA-cam videos is absurd. I could convince you of just about anything with so called experts and false data. You can achieve the exact level of precision with copper tools. I'm not going to get into my credentials but I simply suggest you explore both sides of a disagreement before you decide which side you think is correct. I don't want to bicker but all these guys just repeat Ben and Graham. We've all watched the same videos and claims but do yourself justice and really research it if it interests you. Just because it's on Joe Rogan doesn't make it fact and watch, the truth on this matter will prevail. Peace be with you and best of luck.

    • @ethanwilliam9944
      @ethanwilliam9944 10 місяців тому

      @@AustinKoleCarlisle again, have you really looked into this? They are basically proven to be a hoax. We are all being fooled in so many areas by these videos and alleged experts. If it's truth you seek then you must really dive in on both sides of a disagreement before being swayed either way. Look, I love the idea of lost civilizations and tech but there's little more than speculation. I suggest that if it interests you to know the truth, do the work. All too often we are lazy and just go with what seems correct or cool, in this case. I'm guilty of it too. I don't want to bicker but look into it and use proven sources. Peace be with you and may luck be on your side.

  • @scottwilhelm2086
    @scottwilhelm2086 10 місяців тому

    You guys are saying things that are really dumb. "Nobody creates forgeries with such and such a level of precision?" Nonsense! People create good forgeries. There are whole fields of archeology and art history that revolve around re-creating and experimenting with ancient and prehistoric techniques. And the problem with working in granite is not precision: granite is a hard stone: it is not very prone to warping , swelling or shrinking in changing temperatues. You don't fire granite artwork in a kiln like you do with poverty. It's hard to work in the first place. It's not forgiving of mistakes. But it's not like you can't be careful about it. There is no reason why a modern artist couldn't work in granite, too. There is no reason why they can't be precise about it. People can be very precise.
    I'm not saying your vases are fake. I don't know, The observations you made about the vases are interesting. the artifacts themselves are beautiful. You clearly put a lot of work into your number crunching. But stop saying that no forger could make this because it's good. That's clearly a crap argument that does you a disservice.

    • @RalphEllis
      @RalphEllis 10 місяців тому +4

      Couple of points.
      The whole point of researching the metrology of these vases, and discovering they are made to precise Royal Finger lengths, is that no modern (Chinese) fabricator or forger would bother to use those precise units (even if they were even known). And if they were known, they would be advertised as such. Why make something to an accurate unit of measure, and keep it secret?
      Secondly, as far as I have seen with granite manufacture, a lathe with a rotating grindstone attachment is used, because a cutting tool will splinter granite. This double-rotational tool is a level of technology that was not available until the precision machine tools of the 17th century.
      And while you might contend that the Fatamid ewers are equally technological, they are not made to the metrological precision of the granite vases, nor do they appear to be of a precise unit of measure. Why would they be? These crystal ewers were designed for beauty and wonder, not to fit a piston in a bore.
      R

    • @andymccracken4046
      @andymccracken4046 10 місяців тому

      I have seen comments elsewhere saying a 2 million dollar machine might produce these levels of precision cutting it from metal - but I don't think he would ever try putting a lump of rock into such a machine.
      If you wanted to create good forgeries surely you would want to produce an item that wasn't so perfect that only a machine costing millions could have made it. Crap argument?

    • @mattbealllimitless
      @mattbealllimitless  10 місяців тому +3

      @scottwilhelm2806 I’m open to them being fake, modern replicas. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. I do think we could do this today if we wanted to, and these videos might inspire people to do this now. I have eyes looking for these all over the world, and there are currently zero on the market. So it’s not as if these are being mass produced and flooding the antiquities market. And again, the provenance is incredible. Fayez Barakat sold me two of the three in this video and he’s the world’s largest private owner and dealer of antiquities. He and I have spoken about this project and he knows his reputation is shot if these are fake and he is encouraging me to continue this work. He obtained these 2 from teddy kolleck mayor of Israel in 1968, and he’s had them in his private collection ever since. He didn’t want to sell them but his health is failing and his kids don’t want to be in his business. So it seems like they are real for lots of reasons.