Do Christians Have a Theological Obligation to Support the Modern State of Israel? Dr. Gary Burge
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- Опубліковано 5 лис 2023
- Dr. Burge received his Ph.D. in New Testament from Aberdeen University (Scotland) and has taught at King College (Tennessee), Northpark University (Illinois), Wheaton College (Illinois), and Calvain Theological Seminary (Michigan). He's the author of many books including two on the theology of the land promise: Jesus and the Land and Whose Land? Whose Promise? In this podcast conversation, we wrestle with the question: Do Christians have a theological obligation to support the modern state of Israel?
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This video needs to go everywhere fast, please Lord make it so. Amen
The conversation most American Christians don't want to have!!!!! This was on point!!!!
True... aside from Christian Zionism which has roots in the Scofield bible ( financed by Wall Street financier Samuel Untermeyer), how much is anti-Muslim hatred one of the primary reasons for support of Israel among Christians? It's maddening to see Protestant churches putting up Israel's flag as it bombs Baptist hospital killing 500, mostly women and children.
Indeed.
The university’s have become left wing indoctrination centers where young impressionable minds are filled with radical ideologies and taught to hate America and Israel.
You are so correct that many Americans aren’t willing to examine the actual facts and have those conversations that challenge all the lies and half truths that they are being fed in the realm of liberal academia.
What the point?
The modern country 'Israel' the name that it has taken upon itself is a lie. The modern 'Jews' the identity that their fathers generations ago have taken upon themselves is stolen. For many generations they have been born into a lie which along with most of this world they have come to believe is true. For we are born into a world wrapped in lies. We live in a world of big lies and sadly many have come to believe these lies as truth.
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Thank you for helping clarify my thinking on this difficult matter.
What a great discussion. I have been struggling with this. Raised in evangelical circles. Finally some biblical clarity. I will definitely be studying more. Thank you so much!!
Wow just powerful I just started paying attention to this conflict with the news and my heart is grieved at the suffering and confused as to the perspectives of Christians which I find cruel tbh
Very important discussion for the Church of Jesus Christ who have been massively deceived by the theology of Darby and Scofield
Don't be deceived by this antisemetic replacement theology.
Thanks for so thoughtfully explaining how thinking and studying can be a way to understand and learn the meaning of "love your neighbor" when it seems so confusing in our world today.
Thank you for these conversations!
Always top-notch interviews Preston. Thanks for all of your productions.
I am a white Christian born in South Africa, I am now in my fifties, so I remember apartheid well growing up. The way I have heard the situation described in Israel, esp the marriage laws and laws about beaches, is exactly what apartheid was. I do not appreciate what the ANC party of Mandela have done to South Africa, though, and my concern is once some peace settlement is made, more decades upon decades of heartache and destruction will ensue for both Jews and Palestinians, as is the case now in South Africa, where now everyone suffers even a worse situation than before.
Thanks again, Preston (and Gary) for giving us theological insights into how we should think about this question. My understanding continues to fill out.
Thank you. Yes and amen. At last someone speaking that it takes TWO parties to abide in the agreement to make the covenant still valid. As a spiritual house Israel is destitute.Jesus Saves and can and will save all individual Jews who call on him.
Great discussion, though it would have been interesting to hear responses to the other side of the question: do Christians have an obligation to support Palestinian state-hood and their right to defend their homeland. It seems that when people lay claim to Christ, the NT is clear: claims to land rights are superseded by Christ's claim on the believer, since the believer now has a "better & lasting possession" (Hebrews 10:34). Being dispossessed of land is better than being unfaithful to Christ's call to love enemies, overcome evil w/ good, & bless not curse. From Christ's perspective, both Israeli & Palestinian need his New Covenant to transform their mindset.
Christians should stand up for justice, is it just to be forcefully expelled from, confiscate and demolish your home, your farm land, your sources of water and livelihood just because you are a Palestinian..
By the way, Israel has forcefully expelled the Palestinian Christians as well as the Mulisms.
So for all those, who try to explain the root cause of this conflict as age old religious between jews and Muslims it is not. They (the european colonial settler zionist) wanted to clear out the land from its natives. So this conflict is not ancient, it started at the turn of the 1900's and the events that led to the establishment of IL by the UN. The zionists displayed the Palestinian natives of the land regardless of their religion. Both Palestinian Muslims as well as the Palestinian Christians were expelled and dispossessed..and well as got their own Palestinian jewish communities,and jews from the wider middle east displaced and brought them to the newly established (illegal) state. Read Avi (Abraham) Shlaim's book 'I'm and Arab jew'
There is no Palestinian "homeland".
@@Plisken65 only if you believe there is no American "homeland"
This is really good! Thank you for having this conversation!
Thank you for your broad interviews on this subject! you have made my learning much easier. Is it possible to download the transcript?
Thank you for this discussion.
so so helpful, Drs. Thank you.
Thank You Jesus! This is Christ centered mindset! Blessings!
This was a terrific conversation. Thank you both so much. 😊
Thank you so much!
Awesome. Thanks so much.
Yes! Excellent content here! Thank you both.
Can we have a contextual and in-depth explanation of ROMANS 9-11, and what is meant by "all of Israel will be saved" in chapter 11?
Jason Staples has a book coming out in a few months, please see some of his online writings and pre-order his book.
Indeed, and all of the Old Testament is the Jews breaking God's law. God's covenant stands without the actions of mankind. His promises to the Jews are never broken.
@@blakewidmer thank you for the suggestion. I will look into it.
@matthewbraynimeth2796 @matthewbraynimeth2796 His covenant with Abraham will never be broken. Jesus made it apparent to the pharisees that not everyone who claims genetic lineage of Abraham...are of Abraham. The seed of God's promise is received by faith and "circumcision" comes by faith. it stands that all Israel (those who truly are Israel that believe in Christ Jesus) are saved.
He is calling all people to Himself from every tribe, tongue, and nation who become grafted in the lineage that comes by faith... Abraham's lineage. Well.. I leave it at that.
Romans 9:6 (ESV): 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel...
I am more so asking how Romans 11 should be understood contextually. Hope that makes sense. 🙏🏼
I would recommend John Stott’s commentary on Romans. His teaching on 9-11 is the most complete and clear I’ve read. He presents the ideas of different theologians, not just his own. It’s a very good resource and easy to read
Preston, Gary I am writing as the death count in Gaza is over 37,000 and counting. Thank you so very much for this expose, clearly there is so much more to analyse and discuss. From a Christian perspective, the wonderful reatlity of Christ and the Gospel and its universality is the hope one clings on to - in this world going mad. I have travelled to Israel twice and have jewish friends who are totally secular. Thank you again.
Excellent Preston👏👏👏
Even though the Scripture is a prophetic Word you don't read it as such and are arguing against this truth in its everlasting context; it never stops being prophetic. Including in an ultimate end of the age context with Israel being redeemed. Supernatural it is.
Excellent interview
Excellent talk!
God bless you Sir this is as clear as day!
On your show the other day, I loved the quote from your guest "we await the new Israel, we don't create it." While I pray for peace for Israel, my understanding of the Israel we await is it comes down from the sky as the book of Revelation says when it describes the return of Christ. As well, this new Israel is a place for both Jew and Gentile as through Christ we become Abraham's seed. I find it fascinating that Christians think they can tempt Christ into returning sooner by trying to fulfill the interpretations of prophecy through the mind of John Nelson Darby. I wonder one day as the tribulation plays out and believers aren't swept away in a rapture if this teaching will cause people to lose faith. After all, multiple times in scripture, Jesus himself says the non-believers will be swept away and the believers are the ones in the end who are left behind to celebrate with their King.
God bless you brothers
Do you think you owe support to People running an Apartheid State, People that would segregate you as a Christian to a lesser status?
Do you owe support to bloodthirsty terrorists who vow to wipe Israel off the map?
if one is slave minded, then yes, they will support the oppressor no matter what.
The fact that you call Israel an apartheid state is just slander against a very decent country and noble idealistic people who are faced with daily horrors beyond comprehension. They continue to be beloved for the fathers' sake.
@@johnpinckney7269 ROFL. biggest joke i heard
@@Manhua328 You believe lies most likely. Do you know there are many Arabs in the IDF?
“ ‘The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers. Throughout the land that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.”
Leviticus 25:23-24 NIV
“And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.”
Leviticus 18:28 NIV
Thank you so much for this timely, comprehensive teaching that the Church needs to hear. I’ve been so discouraged since this war started b/c the churches haven’t spoken out. I attend a Reformed Presbyterian church but suddenly I’m surrounded by Christian Zionists that pray for Israel. I think they have been influenced by another CA pastor/author who claims to be a Calvinist on the East coast and a dispensationalist in his own church in CA. I love my church but have not ruled out looking for a new church home.
Try Eastern Orthodoxy.
I am Reformed Presbyterian as well and have similar experiences.
@danielg7868 and @lindaarendt496, do you mean Reformed Presbyterian as in the RPCNA? I attended RPCNA churches for a good number of years, so if that is what each of you mean, I'll find it interesting and cool to see RP folks listening to Theology in the Raw!
@@michiganyes yes, I attend an OPC church. I haven't listened to this channel much but found it as a result of Gary Burge. Since October I've found Gary to be a voice of reason and Biblical truth on this topic.
@@graceyenne4497 can you provide a good title of a UA-cam video which explains the beliefs of Eastern Eastern Orthodoxy
If your answer to this first question is no, then most of this is irrelevant. Do you adhere to Replacement Theology? Replacement theology subtly breeds antisemitism at best and is just flat out demonic antisemitism at worst.
40:00 - interesting…so here you admit and draw attention to how dangerous it is to say that we gentiles are the new chosen people? Like we have REPLACED Israel?
56:50 - wow that is such a straw man! Which teachers are saying that this is fulfillment of prophecy therefore don’t worry about it? I'd like to hear an actual example of that. All the people I’ve heard saying it’s fulfillment of prophecy say it to draw attention to the conflict's significance, to Jesus and to urge us to pray.
I guess you don’t HAVE to have a theology of the modern day Israel state but I do think Scripture shows you HAVE to acknowledge that the Jews are God’s chosen people and that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Does that mean every single Jew who rejects Jesus will be saved? No but the Jews are still His chosen people and the apple of His eye. There is a big difference between saying the gentile church “replaced” Israel versus were grafted in. Read Romans 11 again and be humble. And people listening to this, please read Romans 11. Study the scriptures for yourself and let them inform you. Many people rightly point out that you can say a major reason for the book of Romans was Paul rebuking the Roman gentiles for being arrogant towards the Jews as the Gentile church grew in numbers.
I don't believe we need to support everything the Israel government and army does but this mindset and attitude shown by Dr. Burge is unbiblical.
Well stated.
Thank you for speaking up.
It’s only dangerous to say it if you are a Zionist, to say that an Israeli can find salvation through anything but Christ is to be an apostate. The Jewish religion hates Jesus, and they spit at his name. We owe them nothing.
What race are people in The New Covenant? If they are a new creation what are they called? Yes salvation came from the Jews yet The Kingdom of God is more than salvation.
The Hebrews in Egypt could have been absorbed into the peoples of north Africa. The intended annihilation only led them to recover their faith and return to the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Again, the destruction of Jerusalem and loss of Temple did not destroy Jewish identity in the Diaspora but succeeded only in preserving it. The Jews who returned to their land under the Persian mandate, continued to be as disobedient to God as the Hebrews who entered Canaan. The question I have is, was the Fall of Jerusalem a final judgment as far as the people of Israel is concerned? If so, why does the nation of Israel continue to exist? And why the horrific near-extermination of the Jews in the Nazi ovens of Europe? Why continue to oppress a people if God has no more use for them? Is there no theological explanation at all for the re-establishment of the state of Israel into their own land? Why did they have to settle back in their homeland? They could have settled in Madagascar or in Alaska for that matter? Is there no unseen hand guiding these people despite their disobedience?
@@narcisodionson7173 - I think they still persist because they are still waiting for the person who is going to restore their nation and sit on David’s throne in their new slaughter house of animals.
Just a slight concern for lumping Desmond Tutu in with Christians? (If being Christian means being born-again.)
Warning ignore of liberal, pro-hamas theologian. Notice he never spoke ill of hamas. Not once.
US is an outlier because it has an outliar--dispensationalism.
what does the talmud say about Jesus?
who cares, only anti-semites bring up the talmud.
Thank you both for a very enlightening conversation. From it I have found 2 very basic truths (1) The overall story of both the old and new covenants is the restoration of God's plan for his creation. We should be evaluating all of Scripture back to that fundamental truth. Genesis 1,2 describes creation as the building of a temple and the creation of the care taker of that temple as one who is created in the image and likeness of the creator. Genesis 3 then tells why God's plan goes astray because the care taker decided that he was equal to the creator and that ended the natural relationship between creator and care giver (which we describe as the sin of Adam). The rest of scripture is about the restoration of that relationship which is finally described in the Revelation to John in chapter 21. Truth #2 (for me) is the rebuilding of the temple is the temple of the Holy Spirit inside each one of us as we are encouraged to live into the likeness of the Image that we were created in order to reclaim our original vocation as care givers. all the rest are details of that story.
That all sounds good but this viewpoint just ignores vast expanses of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Zephaniah......
Thanks for a good exploration of a very important topic. The apostle Paul’s radically Christocentric approach exposes the two god approach of Christian Zionism which imports an alien “God” with a character that is, in many respects, diametrically opposed to the character of God revealed in Jesus. Once again, thanks.
good grief read romans 11
@@johnpinckney7269 have done and did PhD research on Romans 9-11. It does not support Christian Zionism!
Lord Jesus Christ brought the NEW COVENANT ..The NEW & EVERLASTING COVENANT.
Matthew 21:42-46
[42] Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
[43] Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. [44] And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
[45] When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. [46] And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet.
Sadly, I would say these gentlemen convey no evidence of struggling with many of the prophets, no sleepless nights trying to imagine Ezeliels temple. Ezel temple is irrelevant to them.
Thank you so much for this ! ❤God Bless you
RE: world falling apart but "don't worry about it", Jesus did say 'let not your hearts be troubled', wars, rumors of wars, etc.
Abraham saw the future saw a heavenly city heavenly kingdom built by God Forever. Praise God.
Right, ascension of Jesus to heaven opening the gates of the new Jerusalem.
Please correct me if I heard Gary wrong…he said 80% of Israeli Jews are secular? 40% is a more accurate number, it has everything to do with defining secular…
Forgetting the theological arguments (which are numerous), I’m looking for the Lord Jesus to return, not to rapture, but to rule and reign.
If we evangelicals took the time to learn how the Orthodox see the Land and end times these would be moot discussions. Our western minds are corrupted! We think we are so smart, so wise…
Jesus told the unbelieving Jews they would not see him again until they say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. All of Israel being saved is jews and gentiles world wide who believe in Jesus. For God so loved the world...
I struggle with this one. Yes, God gave Abraham the land from the Euphrates to the Mediterranean, and Abraham was the father of both the Jews and the Arabs (Ishmael). However, the promise was through Isaac and then Jacob, and to both, God repeated His promise of the land. Modern Israel exists on less than 1/10 of the land God gave to Abraham. So some of this just doesn't seem to be accurate.
You know your Bible and you take it literally. Good job.
That is likely why you struggle with believing this other narrative.
CIRCUMCISM OF THE HEART
GENESIS SAYS CLEARLY " WHO EVER BLESSES Y O U ( ABRAHAM)
With all due respect I think Dr. Burge is wrong on his thesis implying that the land does not still belong to Israel. I'll admit when I first heard his arguments I was nearly convinced myself but upon further study I do not think they line up with the whole scope of scripture. Essentially his arguments are:
#1 First 'Olam/everlasting doesn't actually mean forever.'
I disagree, when you look at the meaning of the Word Olam the Psalm's even describes God as an Olam(everlasting) other meanings are permanent, continual, perpetual. Even if the word doesn't mean eternity there is no indication that the promise to Abraham in 17:8 ever had a time stamp on it. The promise of the land being an everlasting possession to Abrahams descendants is reiterated numerous times to the Israelites after him.
#2 The second argument he uses is 'The land was always conditional on their obedience.'
There is a lot of truth to this statement when we read the Bible because we see them expelled from the land when they are disobedient, however this is not the full picture. The Mosiac covenant had blessings and curses for the obedience or disobedience of the people of Israel, however this did not undo the Abrahamic covenant that the land would be promised to his descendants as an everlasting possession. Also Ezekiel states that the Lord returning them from the land is actually NOT because of ISRAELS OBEDIENCE but for the sake of THE LORDS HOLY NAME. (Ezekiel 11:14-20, 20:39-44, 36:16-38)
One example:
22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes." Ezekiel 36:22-23
The whole book of Ezekiel could essentially be a promise of punishment for disobedience but a promise of restoration and an eternal restoration for the sake of Gods name in being faithful to his Covenant.
#3 Third argument is that the return is talking about the return from Babylon. Once again I think there is truth in this statement but it is not the full picture. Old Testament and End times prophecies can be difficult to decipher because some fulfillments are in immediate future and some are in distant future. The reason I believe this doesn't pertain to only the return of Babylon is because there are many end times statements and or things that have not happened yet such as God putting a "new spirit in them" (Ezekiel 36). Jeremiah talks about the Lord "destroying the nations I scatter you to" that clearly hasn't happened yet either. Another place in Ezekiel 36:15 mentions that Israel will no longer hear the taunts of the nations anymore...that also is yet to be fulfilled. There are numerous others that indicate there will be a future return where the Israelites will never be uprooted again and God will set up his kingdom fully upon the earth.
#4 Lastly, he says that Christ has come to fulfill the law and therefore it is all about Christ and his kingdom not land. I fully agree that the primary focus of the church is the promotion of the Gospel and his kingdom in all things. However that being said, God can do more than one thing. He can fulfill his promise to Abraham by making his descendants a blessing to all nations because salvation comes from the Jews, while also fulfilling his promise that the land is an "everlasting possession to his descendants." Isaiah 49:6 says: he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
This is all true and good news but just because God's salvation goes beyond the Jewish people to the ends of the earth does not mean that his promises to them are undone because he did something greater than they could imagine. Romans 11:28-29 states "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." God's call on Israel is irrevocable!
Jeremiah 31:35-36 says
This is what the Lord says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar-
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”
To summarize, we undoubtedly need to show Christ love to both Jew and Palestinian, for let's remember Jesus first revealed himself as Messiah to a Samaritan woman who was considered immoral. God's love is far greater than we can imagine. That being said let's not disregard God's promises to the people of Israel. This does not condone every governmental action, but let's be aware that the enemy has real plan to try to destroy the people of Israel and is actively working and trying to deceive people in order to do so.
Palestinian Christians are the first Christian community in history. Now Orthodox, Protestants, Catholics and Armenians. Please listen to them and hiow they have suffered under Israel.
JESUS IS THE TEMPLE! AMEM
People share their EXPERT Line of Covenant is God adopted them as His covenant with limited time ?? Or everlasting ?
My Grandpa favorit preacher and Bible study was Chuck Missler and Derek Prince both of them becomes my favorit too.
Right!! Are you grafted into Jesus bc He is the ONLY vine that matters!!!
Psalm 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt.You drove out the nations, and planted it. .. John 15:1 Jesus "I am the vine"
this was a great discussion.... a very simple google search reveals that the motto of Mossad is. בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה no matter how they spin it, plugged in to Google translate= "deceit is essential in warfare"
This is the one thing I take issue with. Sadly it wouldn't be unbelievable 44:08
Dr. Burge isn't telling you everything. So do this experiment. First read the Israel Nation-State Law. Then read the Hamas Charter. Then read the Palestinian Charter, and the goals of The Hezbollah organization. After comparing them, then decide which is closest to American Democracy which Dr. Burge touts as his standard. Note: all these documents can be found online.
Jewish people ,God bless them, have had 2000 years to receive the gospel just like the rest of mankind, plus Old Testament first hand.
I have learned that the Scofield Study Bible is part of the many pieces of this ideology of Zionism which is really not that old. Thank you Dr. Burge will be praying for you. Your are fighting something huge. God be with you every step.
read what they say about Christ in the talmud brother
And the truth is Talmud is just commentaries and those things always change because the analysis of the Torah changes from year to year & evolves with the faith..Im not sure exactly what you're referring to but as far as I know there's nothing about Christ in there since the talmud references the 1st 5 books of the Torah and even if there was something about jesus which there isnt..it would have been subject to that time it was analyzed..Jesus was a Jew and he was a high priest and the basic tendence of Judaism is completely lost in Christianity which is a religion that was created by jews as well..
@@melray5001 Jesus created christianity not Jews.
@@melray5001 Lying practitioner of the talmud on display here folks. We all know what it says about Jesus in there, LIAR. It also not only allows lying to gentiles about the talmud, but it demands you lie to them about its contents. Your lies won't work here
God bless you, Gary!
Ezekiel 36 demonstrates a land promise from God that is not dependant on obedience and faith - quite the opposite, actually:
“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!
“‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.” Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’
Restoration to the land from a multi-nation diaspora precedes spiritual renewal.
That portion is not an exhaustive study of this time period, which Isaiah also talks about in various places giving more info and of course the entire NT provides more of the details of attaining citizenship (faith in Christ).
This portion would fit into the millennial kingdom when those in the kingdom, after the first resurrection, are sent out into the remnant nations as priests of Melchizedek (Christ), going to and fro and teaching and increasing knowledge as Daniel also describes it but these things were sealed from his understanding.
We need to understand the context in light of the full revelation of all scripture and Christ’s teachings (you must be spiritually reborn to see the kingdom of God). Revelation is also a great help to clear up many of the mysteries in the Tanakh, which was its purpose with the unsealing of the scroll.
Exactly, sometimes we don’t need degrees we only need to read the text
I believe the Bible. Have you read the Bible. It's the go to book for all who call themselves Christians. I believe God and He says this is His land and He gives it to whom He has given it. I hope this is what all Christians no matter where they live or their ethnicity. The history of the Holy land did not begin in the last 500 or even a thousand years. There was no colonialism. The Jews were returned to the land G❤od promised to them. God took the Jews from Egypt into that land. Through their own disobedience, they were exiled out of the land. Archaeology is discovering the truth of this land and it's supporting the biblical narrative. Jerusalem is the city of three religions: Judaism, Christinanity and Islam. If people did not teach their kids to hate one another there could be peace. I now know there will be real peace until the Prince of Peace, Yeshua Hamashiach (Jesus Christ) returns. I read the end of the story 😉
This is amazing information! He hits the nail on the head. Jesus interrupted everything!
Promise land was fixed in the bible
People sharing their expert about God Promise Land and His Chosen or the God Covenant.
Which I never heard
Chuck Missler or Derek Prince sharing They EXPERT about Israel.
Not surprise we have the responsibility why Jews hatred AntiSemitic reach to the high level.
Many of the Church and preacher today teaching another Jesus for 💰💰
Some sanity. What a breath of fresh theologically and biblically correct thinking.
Good grief read Ezekiel where God tells us he will gather the Jews back from the lands to which he scattered them.
“ a secular state”, its a secular state… that then G-d redeems. Hence Paul and Jesus use the term “ the times of the Gentiles”
Sad to see two such bright, godly brothers missing the heart of the Father. How about a more balanced perspective that honors the Father/Son's longing for the prodigal to come back to Him through the love and provocation of Gentile believers. It will be life from the dead! I hear the very thing Paul tried to warn us about coming from your words, the conceit of the Gentiles toward the Jews You've missed the whole relational aspect of God's heart and turned it into legal performance which seems so far from the tenderness and love of God, I would have anticipated hearing from Preston. As for the land, what about His forever desire ... Pslam 132:13-14
Easy answer: no
liar
@@Hello-ig1px ?
@@bobbyguzman3058
you
are
a
liar
They will know we are Christians by our love ❤. His blood Descendents are in Isaiah 11:11. They have not arrived yet. You just have to read your Bible......"state of Israel" belongs to man , Israel belongs to God.
Love the podcast. Great topic. I wish I could rattle off all the things I agree with Gary on - don’t have room. Lol but…
95% on board with Dr Gary. 1 clarification, Rabbi Samuel Lebens states that being an Israelite is “not an ethnicity”. That anyone can become an Israeli if they are willing to convert receiving full rights. Therefore 2018 Nation State law is not based on race but religion.
Israel is not a pluralistic society as the States are. Comparing this law (2018) with a white American law is not analogous for me. With this understanding from the 2018 law how does Gary respond?
I’m sure Gary knows this, and he doesn’t agree with the law, but I’m not sure why he didn’t address this argument by steel-manning this position?
The law 2018, again, I’m not sure I agree with, was passed so that over time the population can not, if they are not Israeli, change the State away from Israelite control. The US is pluralistic and a has separation of church and State, Israel does not. At bottom, I do not see Israel is an apartheid state. All the States in the Middle East are religious apartheid in this way, Israel no different. Thoughts?
Again, love the podcast.
nicely stated
It's not just about a 'religious' Apartheid. It's an Apartheid state because the Palestinians have been systematically excluded, dehumanised and brutalised for 75 years since being dispossessed from the land they called home for millennia. It's about one ethnicity, Jewish (especially those who migrated from Europe) receiving preferential treatment at the expense of other people groups.
@@AcousticUplift
1) 20% of Israeli nationals are Arabs (mostly Muslim). Why are they allowed to be Israeli citizens?
2) What preferential treatment do European Jews have over Middle-Eastern Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc according to the law?
All this which Dr. Bunge eloquently explains, leads to preterism, which is a correct doctrine, in my belief.
I was listening for indicators of the preterist or partial preterist position myself.
He never came right out and said it, though.
I assume that’s where this all goes in terms of eschatology
53:00 ANOTHER TRUTH BOMB MR GARY🔥💯
It bombed, that's for sure. Basically admitting residents of Gaza don't have the intelligence to govern their own society by overpopulating.
The only thing he said I disagree with: Are all people in the world loved equally by God? . 31:35
So you think that God's love for his creation is unequal? 🤔
@@Dannyboy0202 He has His chosen. Calvinism.
@RAJohns where is that in the scriptures?
@@Dannyboy0202
C. New Testament verses proving predestination and election:
Matthew 24:22-31: “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect…….And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 25:34: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”
Luke 18: 7-8: “And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
John 15:16: “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit, fruit that will last and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”
John 17:24: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world.”
Acts 13:48: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
Romans 8:29-30: “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Romans 8:33: “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.”
1 Corinthians 2:7: “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory”
Galatians 1:15: “But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,”
Ephesians 1:4-5: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to son-ship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”
Ephesians 1:11: “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
Ephesians 2:8-10: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Philippians 4:3: “Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.”
Colossians 3:12: “Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,”
1 Thes. 1:4: “For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you”
2 Timothy 1:9: “who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,”
2 Timothy 2:10: “Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.”
Titus 1:1: “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,”
Hebrews 4:3: “For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.”
Hebrews 9:26: “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
1 Peter 1:2: “who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood”
1 Peter 1:20: “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”
1 Peter 2:9-10: “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”
2 Peter 1:10: “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”
@@Dannyboy0202
New Testament verses proving predestination and election:
Matthew 24:22-31: “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect…….And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 25:34: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”
Luke 18: 7-8: “And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
John 15:16: “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit, fruit that will last and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”
John 17:24: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world.”
Acts 13:48: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
Romans 8:29-30: “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Romans 8:33: “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.”
1 Corinthians 2:7: “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory”
Galatians 1:15: “But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,”
Ephesians 1:4-5: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to son-ship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”
Ephesians 1:11: “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
Ephesians 2:8-10: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Philippians 4:3: “Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.”
Colossians 3:12: “Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,”
1 Thes. 1:4: “For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you”
2 Timothy 1:9: “who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,”
2 Timothy 2:10: “Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.”
Titus 1:1: “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,”
Hebrews 4:3: “For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.”
Hebrews 9:26: “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
1 Peter 1:2: “who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood”
1 Peter 1:20: “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”
1 Peter 2:9-10: “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”
2 Peter 1:10: “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”
This view doesn't fit the character of God who is One with Jesus, who called His people out of slavery into redemption. There is an ultimate fulfillment of this for the Jews. We serve an unchanging, supernatural God who will make this happen and you're misled if you promote Jesus thinks differently from His Father who is a REDEEMER.
If the new covenant is in place of OT promises to Israel why do some still apply, according to Paul: 'Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise...
Romans 7:3 ESV
You allegorize a literal Word, a living Word, and you've theorize God's promises to Israel aren't trustworthy. If His promises to Israel aren't true, then none of it is true.
The only problem is that what we are seeing in the world is the Fulfillment of Scripture not what is being said here.
Amen. This is nothing more than polished replacement theology.
What we are seeing in the world is the result of human engineering by secular Jews and carnal minded Christians.
* See: Christ's PARABLE OF THE WICKED TENANTS
Sola Scriptura therefore not a Presbyterian
???
@@arttyree4504
Just pointing out, the admitted controversial subject at hand, fellow Christians not holding to replacement theology nor presbyterian distinctives, not because of psychological reasons, but scriptural reasons. In the same token, I do not believe all Christians that don’t hold to a eschatological futuristic view of things like Romans 11 “scripture” are antisemitic..
You are saying that four million live in Gaza. But all other sources say 2.3 to 2.4.
he said 2 million in gaza and 2 million in the west bank
Total is 2.2M
No as Christians we are not obliged to support the political apartheid, fascist State of Israel. In the New Covenant Israel are the people of God who profess Jesus Christ as Lord and thats the Christian nations of the world.
16:49 - 17:53 AND I OOP💯 Straight facts
Abraham was Not 'Jewish' Nor Christian! *Abraham had 8 Sons!!
One sneaky little thing that most everyone misses is that the word gentile means nations or tribal groups. In many cases in the New Testament the word gentile means the so called lost tribes of the House of Israel. Paul was called to take the Gospel to these and to remarry them under the New Covenant. This is the Israel that Paul was writing about in Romans 9-11, not to today's so called Israel at all. The House of Israel has been divorced and sent into captivity in Assyria 777 years before Paul wrote Romans likely around 57 AD. That is the Israel Paul was referring to.
always a remanant
ALSO SAYS ABRAHAM IS THE
F A TH E R OF M A N Y NATIONS!!
D. L. Moody died in 1899.
What theology needs? At least read the Romans 11th chapter. And try to understand that modern state of Israel, sooner they will kneel down and accept Jeaus Christ whom they crucified is the Messaiah.
One of the mistakes people make, is the use of the Word, Jewish Bloodline. There's no such thing as Jew DNA or blood. Jew is a religion. Like he rightly said, it's about Faith. When we say we are children of Abraham, it's because we are of Abrahamic faith. But when you say bloodline, you are making Jew a race ot ethnicity, when it's only a Faith
How do you explain the Palestinian's allowing Hamas to be their leaders?
They are a stateless people, essentially in a walled off prison, they aren't allowed to leave, or to have any sort of self determination. All "peace offers" by Israel come with a caveat of complete subjugation. It is no surprise they turn to extremism, and if you were in their position, you would most likely do the same.
People are remarkably similar. It's the same as the Nazi Germany argument - the majority of people everywhere, if they lived in Germany at that time would have been Nazis, despite the self righteous posturing that they would not have, as they don't actually understand why Germans became Nazis.
I want to re-iterate - you are no better than the people of Gaza, as you do not know what you would do if you were in their position.
Actually that was discussed in another interview. The last vote was 17 years ago. The average Gazan has no choice.
@@RayHooker The problem with that excuse is that the Palestinian Charter, Article 15, years earlier calls for the elimination of Israel also.
This guy is a covenantalist...automatic fail!
Wow how wonderful to hear Christianity being taught!
This anti-semitic replacement theology has been tried over and over again. Just a slick new package. If the boot fits, wear it.
This is Christianity. There is no new package. There is nothing antisemitic about it.
Those aren’t curls they are side locks. It’s disrespectful to use slanderous names for things.
if it curls like a curl it's a ____________ .
Hello Preston,
A quick reminder to your audience to continue to pray for all of the Israeli hostages that were abducted during the barbaric Oct. 7th massacre by Hamas.
You stated that you like to invite a “diverse range of thoughtful people” onto your show, and have “curious conversations,” so I’m sure that all views and opinions are welcome here in the comments section. Thanks.
Quick question; When will you be hosting a conservative evangelical dispensationalist to present their views regarding Israel? Perhaps a reputable American Pastor. Someone like Pastor Jack Hibbs, Pastor Greg Laurie, or the Apologist/scholar Don Stewart?
Soon, I hope.
As a Pre-millennial, dispensationalist who loves their Scofield Reference Bible and fully supports modern day Israel and their God-given right to the entire land, I personally hold different views on just about everything that Gary is claiming here regarding the matter of the land dispute.
But, he does make some solid points that I agree with regarding the church. I assume that Gary’s eschatology might be quite different than what most people hold to in the church, and he didn’t clearly state an adherence to a preterist or futurist view or something else.
However, the interview makes for some useful listening so that we can be better equipped to challenge the wide spread deception that is currently infiltrating our churches and also develop a much stronger argument when engaging fellow believers.
Again, looking forward to hearing a classic Evangelical Pro-Israel perspective in future episodes.
Just to balance things out.
Peace.
@westyso I used to have the same conservative evangelical dispensationalist view that you hold, and after significant research in Darby/Scofield and the origins of dispensationalism I no longer hold those views, with my current understanding / eschatology being much more in line with Dr Burge -- that being said, I thought your request here was very respectful and honest. I just wanted to say "thank you for disagreeing with grace"...I too find this podcast very helpful on a variety of topics, and am thankful to see you express such disagreement and yet you aren't rushing to "cancel preston" or something...thank you for being a good model of disagreement! -- shalom
@@blakewidmer
Your words are kind.
Thank you.
I have been listening to this podcast for a couple years, and although I rarely agree with much of what the guests bring, I don’t want to “cancel” anyone. This show keeps me on my toes, and although I can get upset with some of the content, I have actually learned some things too.
Even if all I glean is a broader exposure to what’s out there beyond my personal views, it is worth my time.
I don’t want to be so “tribal.”
The church has enough opposition, without Christians fighting one another.
Eschatology is hard to nail down and be really convinced about, but we do our best.
Grace to you.
@@westyso.cal.8842 same to you! ✌🙏
@@blakewidmer I was in that camp as well, but the more I read the Bible, the more I know the unbelievers will be dealt with before the believers rejoice. We are going through the tribulation. In the parable of the wheat, Jesus says the weeds are burned before the wheat is harvested in the barn. Matthew 24:37-39 reinforces this comparing ridding the earth of the non-belivers to Noah and the flood. Noah was left behind and the sinners were removed by the flood. Jesus explains this. I will take his advice over Scofield. It's just too simple reading the words of Christ.
Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
The flood removed the non-believing sinners from the earth. Noah was "left behind." It's not the other way around like rapture theology teaches, and that's from the mouth of Christ. I will trust Christ in these matters and not Scofield, as I too was brought up taught rapture theology--only to note it was a relatively new and concentrated teaching in a few churches, mostly American churches.
Today over 100,000 Americans are showing their support for Israel as they rally in DC.
🇺🇸🇮🇱