Check out the Merch Store: teespring.com/stores/growling-sidewinder-store So I had to try out the new Hawker Hurricane in IL-2 I went on the dogfight server in IL-2 as well and had a good time killing lots of German aircraft and getting shot down several times myself lol, I'll probably make a video about that at some point. So this is just another video on our new IL-2 series we're gonna be bringing to the channel to satisfy the world war 2 crowd. Myself included in that I use to love reading about the Hurricanes fighting over Malta when I was a kid. Anyway I hope you guys enjoy the video and thank you all for watching. Have a great day.
as you guys have already noticed I said the german bf109 was firing 30mm its actually firing 20mm. Thank you for the correction. I've learned something new today.
Eight .303 (7.7mn) machine guns was reasonably effective against fighters simply because of the volume of bullets pretty well would hit something vital and they used armour piercing and incendiary ammo. The battle of Britain was won with with fighters armed with 8 .303 Brownings, and ace Douglas Bader stuck with Machine guns in his Spitfire VA because they were more reliable than 20mm cannon at the time. Imagine what you car would look like after eight 1200 rpm Browning machine guns put a burst of Armour piercing incendiary ammo into it. By the way, please don’t refer to the bullets as 7.7mm. That’s the Japanese version of the same bullet. They are .303s
@@SvenTviking a rugged American plane would laugh at .30 caliber bullets. In fact they did when zeros ran out of their limited and unreliable 20mm. Unfortunately for Germany the sturdy air cooled Fock Wolfe hadn't arrived yet. Performance wise I'd take the 109 99 times out of 100 over the sluggish hurricane.
Think RAF pilots would joke that they didn’t shoot a plane down with the 303. You weighed enemy aircraft down so much from the amount of rounds needed, that it couldn’t fly any more.
7.62, 7.7, 7.92 were all common on interwar fighters due to their usage in WW1. The first 109's (A, B, C) had only two 7.92mm guns. During the Spanish Civil War, the Condor Legion found out that the two 7.92 were inadequate for dealing with fighters. The Bf-109 D introduced two more 7.92mm MGs in the wings. This carried over to the first E variant, the E-1. The E-3 was the first mass-produced variant with the two wing-mounted MGs replaced by two MG FF 20mm cannons with 60 rounds each. This was the most common variant during the Battle of Britain. The E-4 had a new canopy and replaced the two MG FF cannons with 20mm MG FF/M cannons capable of firing the Minengeschoß shell. This had a larger explosive payload and was noted for being quite deadly. The E-7 was basically an E-4 with the ability to carry a drop tank. Different engines were used through-out the E production. The F series replaced the two wing-mounted 20mm cannons with one nose-mounted 20mm cannon with 200 rounds (early ones had a 15mm cannon). This gave the pilot a lot more trigger time and improved the accuracy of the cannon. The 30mm was first installed on the G-6U4, firing through the nose with 65 rounds. The velocity was lower and the trigger time was shorter, so it was a trade-off to increase the plane's ability to hunt bombers and IL-2s. The 30mm was very deadly when it hit, but it required more skill and patience to use effectively against agile fighters. Very good video!
Also fun fact that I thought was interesting: Famous childrens author Roald Dahl was a Gloster Gladiator and Hurricane pilot. He was a fighter pilot ace as well.
He also nearly died in a horrible Gladiator crash landing which ended his carrier after a few months in the Hurricane, his autobiography Going Solo documents this part of his life and its quite a good read.
In the battle of Athens he describes how 12 Hurricanes fought near 100 Nazi fighters They lost 7 the Nazis lost 25. Ronald Dahl stayed till he was out of ammunition. He landed with his aircraft looking like a colander. His aircrew patched it up and he took off a few hours later. People who play games always underestimate the Hurricane. But forget in the right hands it was leathal
My dad preferred his Hurricane over his Spitfire because, in general, the Hurricane was a more stable gun platform and easier to both fly and, especially, land! But you are right about the armament, even in training the pilots said that the .303 was inadequate.
My Grandad was groundcrew for Hurries (303 and 229). He said the advantage of the Hurricane was they could fix it with "Twigs, locking wire, dope and a pair of pliers". Also the monocoque spits were basically dead after one cannon shell hit whereas with the Hurricanes they went straight through.
@@egnbigdave The famous "303"! Claimed the largest number of aircraft shot down of the 66 Allied fighter squadrons engaged in the Battle of Britain, even though it joined the fray two months after the battle had begun. Mad Polacks! They were rabid after 1939. They've had a great revenge. Also a crucial contribution to the outcome of the BoB!!
@reAction : The Hurricane I had no chance against the Bf 109E if the German pilot started with a height advantage and used dive and zoom tactics. The only problem with dive and zoom tactics for an escort fighter is that it leaves the bombers unprotected while the escort fighter is zooming upwards to regain his height advantage. In that time, a Hurricane could make an attack run on the German bombers and shoot one down. That made the German bomber pilots complain to their general, and then the 109s get ordered to fly close escort and not leave the immediate vicinity of the bombers (including altitude) for any reason. Once the 109 is tied to the German bombers and unable to have a height advantage or use dive and zoom tactics, only horizontal turns, the Hurricane has the advantage because it can turn tighter than the 109. Many 109s were shot down that way, basically forced to use themselves as human shields to protect the bombers.
Its like firing Match Sticks With tracer imo. I always try to aim for the nose when the 109 is climbing or turning in warthunder. Based on The polish pilots and Douglas Bader historical use 300m is the best range to open up.
The British .303 round was really a rifle round. Rifle caliber bullets had obvious problems in air to air combat, and as the Battle of Britain wore on, senior RAF officers were practically begging for the .303 to be replaced with cannons. The RAF also changed their tactics during the Battle of Britain. They realized rifle caliber bullets were largely ineffective against bombers when attacking from the rear because German bombers had armor. So whenever they could, the RAF used head-on attacks, which were effective because the .303 rounds could hit the bomber's engines and crew.
@@DaveGIS123 i personally think 7.7mm has it own advantage that if you can aim at the engine block or cockpit it holds more ammo and weight somewhat less. 20mm are objectively better against 190 radial however as there isn't any radiator to blow up in the nose.
@@Errorcutive thing with the 20mm vs 7 .7mm is, you need to get 1 good shot with 20mm to take your target down. Clipping a wing, wrecking the engine, blowing the pilot to pieces etc. You may pepper your target with 7mms and deal next to no damage, your shots can fail to penetrate due to armor protecting fuel tanks/pilot etc. Sure you have a lot of them but each time you pull the trigger you fire 12 of them at a time which consumes that ammo count real fast. Another downside is your guns are essentially peashooters at longer ranges.
It is my understanding that the ineffectiveness of the 303 rounds was largely exaggerated, in no small part due to the fact that many British pilots were frustrated with being unable to confirm their kills. what they didn't know was that a good majority of 109s that were riddled with small-caliber machine gun fire were lost on the flight home, many pilots having to ditch their birds before making it to the airfields, and even those that managed to limp home had to be completely scrapped and never flew again. Unfortunately for the British pilots, they weren't around to witness these events, and the knowledge was never made clear until after the war. Naturally if you can't confirm that the plane you were shooting at went down for good, then you're going to point out that you feel like you might as well be shooting spitballs and your planes need bigger guns.
That may be true, so the argument against the .303 becomes "Aircraft are easier to replace than pilots. If the pilot makes it home in one piece, it doesn't matter how shot up the aircraft is because they'll just issue him another one, and then you're facing him again the next day. If instead you blow his wing off with a 20 mm, he's out of the war."
I don't know how historically accurate this is but from my experience in IL2 if you are able to cause a coolant leak to a 109 it doesn't take long for his engine to over heat and seize. What I do know historically form reading BoB pilots testimony is that they got real close to an enemy and that was enough to shoot them down with the .303. Obviously the .303 was an effective round because the RAF won the BoB.
First, The 109 E7 had two MG FF/M 20 mm canons, which a lot of people have pointed out. But I think it matters little as whether it's a Mk108 30mm or a FF/M 20mm, it's gonna shred the Hurricane with a few shots. No, my gripe is with how the 109 pilot was flying. As the Americans quickly learned with Zeros, "Never Turnfight a Turnfighter", same is true for the Bf109 and the Hurricane. The Bf109E7 had a max speed of 580kmph, and a climbrate of around 18m/s. The Hurricane had a max speed of 510kmph and a climbrate of 11 m/s. The difference is massive. Turn time (21.0 seconds for Bf109 and 15.0 seconds for the Hurricane) is where the hurricane enjoys such an advantage that it's not even worth contesting for the 109 pilot. Unless he is forced by some external factors, he will never take the bait. He would never have merged with the Hurricane at the same altitude to begin with, but considering he did, he would never turn towards the Hurricane, as he can just extend away, put his plane at a climb, gain some altitude and boom and zoom the hurricane again and again until it crashes. The 109 also has better Energy Retention than the Hurricane so it won't even take that long to retry after one BnZ attempt has failed.
It's a lopsided fight if the 109 pilot has any clue what he's doing. These machines are night and day, all those machine guns are worthless if you never have a shot on target.
Yeah I agree. A good 109 pilot should be able to fly circles(figuratively) around a hurricane all day. All you have to do is climb and stay in the vertical and the hurricane really can't do much
@@Garthbrooks4756 Something that always seems to be left out of history (and games especially) was the quality of aviation fuel available to the Luftwaffe in WW2. Most of the German aviation fuel was made by hydrogenating coal, which results in a poor quality fuel. Whatever power the DB601 had on paper it could be losing as much as 200bhp when the fuel being used was taken into account. That's something that robbed Luftwaffe pilots of a lot of their advantages during the war, especially when the RAF and USAAF had reliable access to 100 Octane Avgas, outrunning and energy fighting even Hurricanes could be far from a done deal for a BF109 pilot in 1940.
@@fix0the0spade That's not true at all. German Luftwaffe always used the same fuel in their tests as what was being used in aircraft on the front lines. It was all the same fuel, because there was so little of it. Where did you get your information?
Len Deighton wrote a book on the comparative strengths and weaknesses of the opposing fighters of that time. It included an analysis of the different gun configurations. If I remember correctly, the eight gun .303 configuration came in 3rd, but if the pilot was willing to get very close, ( inside 200 yards,) the eight gun configuration was devastating.
Does anyone else miss the uber-dramatic, slow motion kill shots with the choir in the background? Easily one of the best parts of these videos that sets GS apart from other sim content creators.
Hey man, it's nice to see IL-2 Sturmovik getting some love on your channel! Don't get around much to the comment section on your videos but I definitely still watch and like them all.
You've gotta remember; the Hurricane is a very early fighter aircraft (1937) compared to say later models of the Spitfire (1941), the P-51 Mustang (1942), or the Focke-Wulf 190 (1941). Even the US, Soviet and German fighters were most often using 7.62 or 7.92mm machine guns as their main armament during this period. Meanwhile the 20mm Hispano cannons were causing huge amounts of recoil for the very light airframes, which also weren't able to carry a lot of ammunition for them. The 7.7mm was just considered a more CONSISTENT weapon overall, although by 1939 Britain was desperately trying to manufacture enough 20mm's for all their Hurricanes, Spitfires, Typhoons and Whirlwhinds
I play a lot of Cliffs of Dover, so I’ve been on the other end of those .303’s many times. Structurally you’re alright, but trust me those little stingers are causing havoc on the inside. I’d still prefer to have .50’s or especially 20mm’s. Great video!
The trick with the 7.7mms was the gun convergence and relatively close range of engagement. Even though you can clip a wingtip with them at flatter angles (basically sawing it off), you shouldn't bother with wings and just aim at the engine, since at least one of those rounds is bound to hit something vital. Leaking water and fuel might not seem such a big deal, but in BoB, it most certainly was since it meant that the 109 had to disengage immediately or he would have to ditch in the channel. Fuel leaks especially, since the Emils didn't have a big enough range to loiter around Dover for more than 10-ish minutes. In fact, the British experimented with 12.7mm MGs, but found them unsatisfactory, so they skipped them. It was mainly since the 7.7s were sufficient enough, as the early German planes weren't that much armored compared to their successors. The trade-off wasn't worth it since the benefits were small compared to the increase in weight and decrease in performance, and they didn't want to have to readjust the production lines for it. The 8 x 7.7mm were thus regarded as a good-enough armament to tackle fighters with. I don't know specifically which one came first, but both Hurricane and Spitfire were experimented on regarding 20mm cannons. Hurricane was equipped with 20mm Oerlikon cannon gunpods and proved horrendous in terms of flight performance, whilst the Spitfire (Mk.IB) had the 7.7s removed and was armed with only 2x20mms Hispano cannons (2x60 rounds). It proved a lot better, and although the guns jammed frequently, the potential was recognized and the cannon installations were improved and combined with 4 x 7.7mm. This was mainly done to combat the bomber threat, and Hurricanes would primarily be sent against bombers, whilst the spitfires would tackle fighters (Worth to mention that the Beaufighter and Blenheim variants were also used for anti-bomber sorties, and often get overshadowed and underappreciated) To differentiate different armaments, wing-types were named: A wing - the original, 4 x 7.7mm B wing - 1 x 20mm (60 rpg) + 2 x 7.7mm (Spitfire); 6 x 7mm (Hurricane) C wing (also known as the universal wing) - 2 x 20mm + a hardpoint to attach a 250lbs or 500lbs bomb D wing - 1 x 47mm Vickers S + 1 x 7.7mm (For the Hurricane, most famously used in Africa for anti-tank sorties, by the No. 6 squadron. The squadron would come to be known as "The flying tin openers". The tropical variants of the hurricanes and spitfires had the dust filter mounted onto the engine section, and were given the /trop designation); No armament, used for Photo-reconnaissance (In Spitfires) E wing - 1 x 20mm (120 rpg) + 1 x 12.7mm + hardpoints (250lbs/500lbs bomb or up to 4 x RP-3 rocket) (This became the standard for spitfires); The Hurricane changes were too significant that it became classified as a separate variant - the Mk. IV. The armament consisted of a single 7.7mm for aiming purposes, and either a single 47mm Vickers S, or 500lbs bomb, or 4 x RP-3 rockets (At this point, the Hurricane was replaced by the Typhoon) Soviets asked for and were leased various Hurricane variants, ranging from A to D. When Hurricanes were delivered to the Soviet Union, the soviets looked at the A and B wings, chuckled, and replaced them with 2x12.7mm Berezin UBs + 2x20mm ShVAKs (They also used 4 x 12.7mm and 4 x 20mm combinations, as well as combining the 12.7mms and 20mms with 4 to 6 x 7.7mm), and modified the wings to carry 6 x RS-82 / RBS-82 rockets. There were even field modifications for FAB-100 bombs, as well as a tail gunner. They were mainly used in PVO (Air defence) Hope it was a fun read :)
Great video. Just a precision: only the first round Me-109 was an "Emil" (E-4 or E-7), the second round Me-109 was an G-6 it seems (rounden wing tips, different nose, 20 mm cannons on wing pods, etc).
On the documentary, "Spitfire Voices" it was said, "If you knew it was going to be a good day, and you wanted to look good, take a Spitfire. If it was a bad day, be in a Hurricane". Nice vids, you should be known as the chuckling assassin.
"I don't know who decided on 7.7mm..." UK had millions of rounds of this left over from WW1 and couldn't get 20mm working in the rush of war in 39-40 "Americans had the .50.." Americans had the .50 when they joined the war *two years later*, at which point the RAF had the 20mm
The US was already deploying .50 cal MGs on fighters by the time of the Battle of Britain. So, yes, “Americans had the .50” is an accurate statement. Granted, two to four of them at a time, in 1940. But the P-47 would be in service a year later, with four in each wing root. Appearing around the same time as the first stopgap measures to get the 20mm to cycle somewhat reliably. So I think the comparisons here are fair.
@@Activated_Complex In 1941 the RAF had multiple aircraft with a 4 20mm Hispano cannon armanent- The Spitfire VC, the Bristol Beaufighter, the Westland Whirlwind and the Hurricanes with the type C wing. When the US first tried mounting 4 20mm Hispano cannons on the Corsair, they considered the arrangement to be overpowered. The P-47 didn't enter service until late 1942, and didn't see combat until March 1943. However, it did have an edge when it was introduced because early Hispanos didn't like to operate without jamming.
The Western Allies didn't need heavy cannons as much as the Germans did after 1940, because they were mostly shooting at German fighters. The Germans after 1940 were mostly engaging Allied bombers. The 30mm cannons were for shooting down bombers. It was hard to hit a fighter with the slow 30mm rounds. But the .303 (7.7mm) was just too light a round with too short an effective range, especially against bombers. The .50 was about the best fighter vs. fighter weapon in WWII. A good combination of hitting power, rate of fire, and ammo capacity.
Great vid as it is the norm with your channel GS, but a small comment about the guns. Emil's nor Friedreich's had the 30mm, they both used 20s, two in the Emil and one on the F4, since the F2 used a rather anemic 15mm later rebored to 20mm in the 20X82mm format, slightly less powerful than hispanos. The mighty 30s came with the Gustav's. Farewell matey and keep up the good work!
I read a book from the library about the battle of Britain about the hurricane, also but in 1960. I wish I could find that book because it made me a life long fan! Thanks for the Video.
Awesome to see you fly in one of my favourite all time aircraft. Very underrated. The Mk 1 came out with a fixed pitch wooden prop and 8 .303 machine guns. Later to get the 3 bladed variable pitch prop. It was pretty robust, the armament wasn't bad for the opening year of the war at least (the Spit had the same) and it was more maneuverable that the Spit or the 109. I'm sure you know all this btw. As you said it was the unsung hero of the BoB shooting down more aircraft than the Spit (there were more Hurricanes in service though). Another advantage, simpler construction than the Spit so easier to build, repair and build faster. As it was they had just enough of them just in time to fight the BoB. They were slower than their contemporaries though. TBH I think the outcome of most of the encounters they went through back then were the result of who saw who first, the respective positions of the aircraft and then the tactics used, not to mention the experience of the pilots involved. I've read that the pilot had to fly with dash and determination in the Hurricane to win against 109's whereas the Spit was more on par. Great vid btw.
He was never making it home towards the end there mate. you had atleast fairly well decimated his coolant radiator. his engine would've seized well before making the French coast I think.
Amazing damage by that 30mm round...now show this to the director of 'Red tails ' and the scene where they guy takes four of those 30mm head on in a p51 from a me262 and he can still fly and talk after that (well he crasched after a while tho)
best Hurricane pilots used 150m range set for guns, and opened fire from 100 up to 50 meters - at this range, they are quite nice. Nice flying, pleasure to watch.
More IL2 please, best ww2 sim out there hand down. Damage model is AMAZING so satisfying to watch a damaged wing slowly bend and snap off due to damage and slightly over-stressing it. The aircraft feel amazing to fly feel like im flying a plane and not a paper plane that flops around the sky. Please do P51D-15 vs K4 which will provide a good comparison to the DCS one you did not long ago, especially since you get the 150 Octane fuel that the P51 deserves
I think convergence of the .707 rounds was also a factor. If you set them all at specific distance, ( I believe RAF pilots later during the BOB set it around 120 or so Yards ) it had a bit power effect on German airframes .
Nice flying. Once I had the honour of sitting in a Hurricane that was being restored in Assiniboia Saskatchewan many years ago. A guy named Harry Werat had quite a collection of WWII aircraft and Merlin engines.
Love the videos. a few points to make. rifle caliber machine guns where the standard for almost all air forces in the late '30's. The armament evolved through the war as everybody added armour to the aircraft. the 109 E7 had 2 x 7.92mm machine guns in the engine cowling, and 2 more in the wings. as well as 1 20mm firing through the propeller hub. later variants had different weapons. early Hurricanes and spitfires had 8 x .303 Brownings. Then came the 12 gun Hurri and the last variant with 4 x 20mm.
A lot of planes of the era of the Hurricane were wood and cloth covered so the .303 especially 12 of them was pretty effective. One thing to consider is the weight. Your plane is lighter and can out turn everything. You get them down in the weeds and you have all day long to kill them.
Love to see you doing IL-2 and warbirds now. Superb flying and commentary as always. I see many corrected you on the mistake about E7 and weaponry. However, that's not an E7 you're fighting in the last round.That's Gustav, and armed in bomber destroyer config with extra cannon pods that were indeed 30mm. The Emil had completely different looks: it had squared off wingtips, huge intake for cooling in middle of the spinner, guns in wings, not mounted in those nacelles under, and distinct support stubs under horizontal stabilizers. That cammo is also late war 109, while Hurricane is strangely with D-day stripes. Battle of Britain Hurricane was mk1, and didn't have 12, but only 8 guns. Cheers.
Love the video's. The 8 .303's of the hurricane and spitfire fared fine against the 2 x7.92 and 2x20mm of the early 109's. Pilots had to be marksmen, and most still preferred the .303 Browning's even after the 20mm Hispano became more prevalent.
Just some detail as to the explosive effect of the rounds. For comparison, the US/UK pineapple type hand grenade carried something over 50 grams of explosives. The allied 20mm cannon, based on the Hispano gun, first carried between 6 and 11 grams, later versions 14 grams. The early German 20mm cannon, the MG FF type also based on the Hispano as well as the later MG 151/20 carried special minnen-geschoss cartridge with thinner walls containing some 18.6 grams of explosives. That would mean every hit by a German 20mm shell caused an explosion (if it didn't fail) comparable to one third of the power of an allied hand grenade. The 30mm German shell from the Mk 108 cannon, using the same design of thin-walled shells, carried first 85 grams, later 72 grams of explosives. So each hit had greater effect than a hand grenade explosion.
This is great stuff, I moved from 109s over to the mighty Wulf and haven’t looked back. Speed, firepower and a zoom climb that blows your mind. Would love to see you fight in any of the 190s.
Up to that point, rifle calibre ammunition had perfectly servicable for the downing of aircraft. The use of a number of regular machineguns was enough until people developed much better airframes, but you could fairly quickly tear apart a '30s era aircraft with just a mass of .303 or .30-06 fire.
I would love to see group tactics like you’ve done with jets in the past but using these WW2 fighters!! I love watching how you plan and fly with a squadron and I would love to see the tactics involved with flying WW2 planes in a group as well! Love the vids, keep up the great work!!
I haven't even gotten to the main meat yet but that test firing of the cannon on the Spit is scary. It took me 3 viewings to see the elevator sag as all the control wires had been severed. Beyond it being sheared off by the force of the cannons impact. Scary stuff
I think the first BF109 to be (optionally) equipped with 30mm was a BF109 G-6. It was a Mk 108 cannon. However 20mm is a better weapon when used against fighters because of higher rate-of-fire, superior ballistics and larger amount of ammo.
What I find interesting is that when the Spitfire Vb was introduced with 2 20 mm guns and 4 7.7 mm guns, the fighter ace Douglas Bader didn't like the cannons and insisted that he preferred the 8 brownings found on the Spitfire mk I, II, and Va
I've read a lot about Bader, but nothing about whether he was a good aerial marksman or not. If he was not a good shot, more smaller-caliber guns would have at least given him a better shot at getting some hits than fewer, bigger guns would have.
The 303 was the standard round throughout all of the services. We had millions of them. When we was under siege we couldn't really get the materials to make the bigger rounds in ant amount.
The real footage at the beginning was a really nice touch, I'd like to see more. The WW2 content is much appreciated. You mentioned reading books as a kid, do you have any recommendations? Long form videos from combat box sorties with tacview would be awesome.
Suggestion: when you have .303's, pretend you're in a WWI fighter. Get close. the .303 loses to much power at distance. You're used to cannon. They have a lot more energy, at the ranges you were shooting from.
Nicely made video and good use of Tacview but you seem to have forgotten that the RAF were fighting in 1939 when air to air cannons were not normal. Even when the RAF got the first 20mm cannons a couple of years later, many squadrons asked them to be changed back to 303s because the cannons kept jamming. Eight reliable 303s is better than two or four jammed cannons. Most of the 109s brought down during the Battle Of Britain were brought down by coolant failure and the 303 was perfectly adequate for wrecking the exposed radiators, It was also very effective at destroying bomber engines, especially at convergence where you had 8 or 12 streams of 303s hitting a very small area. What you were doing in that fight was getting many small hits on wings and fuselage because you are used to the idea of 'fire enough shells and one might hit and that will do a lot of damage.' The RAF pilots of the early 40s flew with the idea 'No point spraying bullets and hoping to hit something vital. Get the range right and put your bullets in a vital place.' I agree, and they agreed later, that cannon is better but in the battle Of Britain they learned to fly and shoot with 303s in mind as that is what they had. I also suspect that BoX is a little too forgiving when it comes to coolant loss. In CLoD once you destroyed a 109s radiator he was pretty much done for and would lose his engine within a few minutes but here someone can keep fighting for 5 minutes then fly all the way home. Perhaps CLoD was too far the other way but it is a fact that a 109 pilot over Kent who lost his radiator would rather ditch and be captured than trust his engine to last the mere 20 mile journey back to France.
Used to play Aces High, and would love flying the Hurricane MK I with 8 .303s. Managed to surprise someone in a P-38. Think the sudden burst of hits caused such a surprise he lost control of the plane and spun to his death. Another time managed to sneak up on a low and slow P-47 and basically form up with him. Lit him up so bad managed to actually get him to explode. Love the Hurricane! :D
@Growling Sidewinder please do a featured dogfight with you flying the FW-190 D9 Dora please. The D9 Dora was not well known by most people since it was overshadowed by the more available main-stay BF-109 G but in fact the FW-190 D9 was a very high performing high altitute interceptor of the Luftwaffe during WWII. It earn the nickname of "Mustang Killer" from Luftwaffe Veteran pilots as a testament to its remarkable performance. It was the only up-to-par fighter available for the Luftwaffe during the late period of 1944 that in the hands of experience pilots could put up more than a match for Mustangs or Spitfires while the rest of the German air service are given underperforming BF-109 G Models that just doesn't stand a chance against Mustangs or Spitfire IX or anything the allies are flying at that time.
A hurricane isn't going to win against a 109 unless the 109 makes grave mistakes, as these ones did. There is a reason why the Hurricanes were sent after the bombers. A 109 playing the energy game as he should would be untouchable.
Try the Hurricane in CloD using AP and incendiary rounds with very close convergence. That’s what worked well for the RoF - more of a shotgun/flamer combo. Most of my 109 kills are flamers. Also, remember that a radiator hit over England would often be game over for a 109; you won’t get your quick kill but that engine will cease before you get home - again a lot of my 109 kills in CloD come from slow bleeds following by channel ditches. Check out my CloD vid on the Hurri
Great video, though the standard German cannon had a 20mm shell much like the Hispano. Only a few late war aircraft used the 30mm MK108! The Bf 109 E-7 seen here has two 20mm MG FF cannons
You have to look at the history before passing comment on RAF gun calibres early in the war. The decision on armament was made pre war with primarily an eight gun .303" Browning fit selected for both the Hurricane and Spitfire. Of course once the war started it quickly became apparent that the .303 on it's own as insufficient especially against bombers. The main advantage of the eight gun Browning fit was it placed somewhat less pressure on a pilot's marksmanship with its almost shotgun effect than did the 7.92mm MG / 20mm cannon combo in the Me109. As mentioned the Spitfire IIB had x2 20mm Hispano and x4 .303" fitted but problems with the installation, in particular reliable ammo feed under high G manoeuvres limited it's utilisation during the Battle of Britain. That problem was of course eventually overcome in time for use in the Spitfire MkV
Ikr Gen Boots’ Blesse said,when that 30 mm was behind you(Mig15) you could feel the vibrations in the rudder pedal, go left or right but don’t fly level, n that was in an F86 Sabre!!‼️‼️‼️
The .303 round was the same cartridge used by the infantry's Lee Enfield Rifles and the Vickers machine gun so there was a lot of it around. I guess that is why it was used in the Spitfire and Hurricane
Both the Spitfire and Hurricane used .303 rifle calibre ammunition because we had plenty of them. In 1940, cannons were still being developed for the Spitfire. The Hurricanes main role, was to attack the bombers leaving the Spitfire free to engage the fighters.
According to a Spitfire pilot who fought in WW2, you get in close to Jerry and keep firing. You don't let go for a good 5-7 seconds. That would usually do the job
I'd like to see some of the Italian Fighters like the Macchi MC.202 and 205 versus the Allied fighters, as they were great planes by all accounts, the MC.205 Veltro in particular was called the best dogfighter outside of the P-51D Mustang.
@@180791sanguinius Yeah the Germans loved Italian aircraft designs especially the mid/late war 5 series like the Mc.205, Re.2005 and the Fiat G.55. "Sadly" Italy never had the industrial capability to produce them in large enough quantities to make much of a difference.
Aft of the cockpit, all Hurricanes had fabric-covered fuselages. The primary structure was a Warren truss box-girder steel longerons and duralumin cross-bracing. Over this, a secondary structure of wooden formers and stringers gave the fuselage a rounded shape, which was covered with doped linen. Early Mk. Is also had fabric-covered wings and 2-blade, fixed-pitch props. Apparently, some of those were still around during the Battle of Britain. But they would have been retro-fitted with either adjustable-pitch props or, later, constant-speed props.
The Hurricane during the Battle of Britain, although being the highest scorer, was not generally loved by its pilots. It was pretty much a 1930s biplane with an excellent Merlin engine and without the extra wing. The cockpit was a seat mounted in an open fuselage, behind the instrument panel was a fuel tank. The plane struggled to get to altitude and perform beyond 20,000 ft (-25c) and the pilot had no heating or rudder trim, constantly manually correcting propeller torque. These young men aged 18-25, predominantly not officers, could be basking in shirtsleeves in 25c sunshine then following a scramble find themselves shivering on the half hour transit to altitude to intercept the bandits. Then when they got in firing range the.303 rifle rounds did little damage to a Heinkel or Dornier unless extremely accurate or lucky. They did the job in the end though and this was, for the Hurricane, it's finest hour. And for the brave, brave boys who perished in the defence of our Island "we will remember you".
Some Hurricane drivers have insisted in interviews that they wouldn’t have traded their machines in for Spitfires, and there were squadrons of the RAF who protested mightily when the orders came down to do so. It seems rather rare to find a veteran of combat in a particular flying machine with very harsh things to say about it. Understandable, really, as they lived to tell their story. But even setting that aside, there were some admirable qualities to the Hurricane. While largely keeping up with the early war Spitfires in performance, it was also a great gun platform. In part because the downwards angle of the nose obscured little of the pilot’s view when applying lead to a target. And there are anecdotes of Hurricanes struck in the tail by German cannon fire (granted, at fortuitous angles) simply needing the cloth patched over where the shell passed clean through.
@@Activated_Complex Wouldn't argue too much with any of that and I think you are right the flimsy fabric fuselage sometimes did allow projectiles to pass through causing little damage. Tom Neal in his book "Gun Button Set to Fire" sets his frustrations at the Hurri's inadequacies out repeatedly but it remains the true hero of the BoB.
The Hurricane IIB had 12 X .303in MG. Some BF 109E's during the early war years, including the Battle of Britain, had 7.7mm MG fitted due to a shortage of 20mm Oerlikon cannons, which by the way suffered from low muzzle velocity and therefore poor accuracy and a low rate of fire. The first hurricane to receive cannon was the IIC which entered service mid-1941, after the Spit IIB and VB cannon-armed spits entered service.
And as you allude to with the 30mm test, the airframe was sitting on blocks, and not subject to flying stresses. Even less 'vital' looking hits on a hard-turning aircraft could result in a rapid unscheduled disassembly ...
The 7.7mm. is more lethal on IL-2 CloD because players can customise individual gun ammo belts with a wide variety of 7.7mm. ammunition types. getting the right mix makes a big difference to effectiveness. Ball (3 types): Rips off panels, control surfaces, etc. but stopped easily by armour plating. AP: Smashes engine blocks, penetrates armour plating, breaks propeller blades, kills pilots, damages airframe, etc. Incendiary: Causes fires to control surfaces, fuel tanks, etc. Observer (exploding): Sets off fuel leaks, smashes control surfaces, one shot kills air gunners on bombers, etc. Tracer (4 types): Shows where shots are going.
4 роки тому+1
Would you consider having small cameras of your joystick, throttle and rudder? I also watch driving sim streamers and it really helps to see how they manage their gas/break/clutch. I'm amazed at the way you keep the 109 so steady.
Love your videos. I've been a huge flight sim fan and War Bird aficionado since Flight Simulator on my Commodore 64 in the early 80s. The 109E-7 would have had (2) 20mm MG-FF/M cannon (60 rounds each) in the wings and (2) 7.92mm MG17 machine guns (1,000 rounds each) over the engine firing through the prop arc. The 30mm MK108 wasn't used in the 109s until the G6 model in early 1943
I found the spitfire can fly without wings. I got into a dog fight the other day and on the return, I could feel she was a bit stiff in turning. When I did an external view I had no wings. I landed without blowing up too which was helpful as I got the Repair team on it. That's the Handy thing about DCS.
The .303 browning where generally considered more reliable early on. They tried to get the 20mm hispanos working but ran into issues early on with them. And the British had alot, and I mean alot of 303 ammo left over from the Great war. The MoD still had stocks of surplus .303 in storage until recently. The last stocks of surplus .303 where sold on the civilian shooters market around 2007 I think.
When the war first started the MoD had excess Browning machine guns with the calibre of 7.7 or 303, leftovers from WW1, so considering the urgency that Britain found itself in they used those stocks. As you can see that with them loading Spitfires and Hurricanes with eight to twelve of them. After they had shortages they retooled what was left to 50 calibres and fitted cannons as well. It's not the size of the rounds that matter but the combined weight of rounds delivered.
The RAF stuck with the. 303 Brownings as they wanted a gun with a high rate of fire and aerial combat had shirg engagement times that cannons could not match. These guns used the same ammunition as the SMLE, Bren guns and Vickers heavy machine guns used by the army, it simplified the supply chain.
If I recall correctly the British tested .303, an older .50 and 20 mm just before WWII. They correctly concluded that the .303 is too weak, but the .50 cal that they had available had low fire rate and even if that is fixed it would be an intermediate solution. The 20 mm was chosen as the best choice, but they had some problems with it that were not fixed until midwar. So they used 7.7 mm machineguns because the .50 cals weren't that much better and the 20 mm was not available.
Small nitpick but world war 2 planes, and some cold war ones don't have a "HUD", you said "pull him into the HUD" but it's the pipper or the gunsight? A heads up display combines the aiming reticle and ranging information with flying information such as speed and altitude, the angle you're facing.
Check out the Merch Store: teespring.com/stores/growling-sidewinder-store
So I had to try out the new Hawker Hurricane in IL-2 I went on the dogfight server in IL-2 as well and had a good time killing lots of German aircraft and getting shot down several times myself lol, I'll probably make a video about that at some point. So this is just another video on our new IL-2 series we're gonna be bringing to the channel to satisfy the world war 2 crowd. Myself included in that I use to love reading about the Hurricanes fighting over Malta when I was a kid. Anyway I hope you guys enjoy the video and thank you all for watching. Have a great day.
what version of IL 2 is this?
@@capt-rex2894 BOS
@@GrowlingSidewinder battle of stalingrad?
What Duel Servers? Beloga or Combat Box`?
can you plz do a battle with the mosquito
as you guys have already noticed I said the german bf109 was firing 30mm its actually firing 20mm. Thank you for the correction. I've learned something new today.
To be fair, some bf 109 do fire 30mm rounds, but 20 mm is the most common
the later G and K versions got the 30 mm nosecannon
Eight .303 (7.7mn) machine guns was reasonably effective against fighters simply because of the volume of bullets pretty well would hit something vital and they used armour piercing and incendiary ammo. The battle of Britain was won with with fighters armed with 8 .303 Brownings, and ace Douglas Bader stuck with Machine guns in his Spitfire VA because they were more reliable than 20mm cannon at the time. Imagine what you car would look like after eight 1200 rpm Browning machine guns put a burst of Armour piercing incendiary ammo into it.
By the way, please don’t refer to the bullets as 7.7mm. That’s the Japanese version of the same bullet. They are .303s
@@SvenTviking a rugged American plane would laugh at .30 caliber bullets. In fact they did when zeros ran out of their limited and unreliable 20mm. Unfortunately for Germany the sturdy air cooled Fock Wolfe hadn't arrived yet.
Performance wise I'd take the 109 99 times out of 100 over the sluggish hurricane.
Everyone that's played war thunder knows more about ww2 aircraft than our host.
Can't be an expert in everything I guess.
Think RAF pilots would joke that they didn’t shoot a plane down with the 303. You weighed enemy aircraft down so much from the amount of rounds needed, that it couldn’t fly any more.
About accurate i tend to only use them at point blank to try and force a pilot snipe but that doesn't usually happen lol
7.62, 7.7, 7.92 were all common on interwar fighters due to their usage in WW1. The first 109's (A, B, C) had only two 7.92mm guns. During the Spanish Civil War, the Condor Legion found out that the two 7.92 were inadequate for dealing with fighters. The Bf-109 D introduced two more 7.92mm MGs in the wings. This carried over to the first E variant, the E-1. The E-3 was the first mass-produced variant with the two wing-mounted MGs replaced by two MG FF 20mm cannons with 60 rounds each. This was the most common variant during the Battle of Britain. The E-4 had a new canopy and replaced the two MG FF cannons with 20mm MG FF/M cannons capable of firing the Minengeschoß shell. This had a larger explosive payload and was noted for being quite deadly. The E-7 was basically an E-4 with the ability to carry a drop tank. Different engines were used through-out the E production. The F series replaced the two wing-mounted 20mm cannons with one nose-mounted 20mm cannon with 200 rounds (early ones had a 15mm cannon). This gave the pilot a lot more trigger time and improved the accuracy of the cannon. The 30mm was first installed on the G-6U4, firing through the nose with 65 rounds. The velocity was lower and the trigger time was shorter, so it was a trade-off to increase the plane's ability to hunt bombers and IL-2s. The 30mm was very deadly when it hit, but it required more skill and patience to use effectively against agile fighters. Very good video!
Also fun fact that I thought was interesting: Famous childrens author Roald Dahl was a Gloster Gladiator and Hurricane pilot. He was a fighter pilot ace as well.
He also nearly died in a horrible Gladiator crash landing which ended his carrier after a few months in the Hurricane, his autobiography Going Solo documents this part of his life and its quite a good read.
@@TheKusa5 yeah it is! That's where I read about it.
@@donovanvichi7102 yeah I like his autobiographies. There's a sense of humour in his writing.
Wow, didn't know that, i thought he was only an author.
In the battle of Athens he describes how 12 Hurricanes fought near 100 Nazi fighters They lost 7 the Nazis lost 25. Ronald Dahl stayed till he was out of ammunition. He landed with his aircraft looking like a colander. His aircrew patched it up and he took off a few hours later.
People who play games always underestimate the Hurricane. But forget in the right hands it was leathal
I wouldn't mind more IL-2 videos, great game.
Il2 is amazing, among the best. Been flying since 2001. VR got me back into Il2.
My dad preferred his Hurricane over his Spitfire because, in general, the Hurricane was a more stable gun platform and easier to both fly and, especially, land! But you are right about the armament, even in training the pilots said that the .303 was inadequate.
My Grandad was groundcrew for Hurries (303 and 229). He said the advantage of the Hurricane was they could fix it with "Twigs, locking wire, dope and a pair of pliers". Also the monocoque spits were basically dead after one cannon shell hit whereas with the Hurricanes they went straight through.
@@egnbigdave The famous "303"! Claimed the largest number of aircraft shot down of the 66 Allied fighter squadrons engaged in the Battle of Britain, even though it joined the fray two months after the battle had begun. Mad Polacks! They were rabid after 1939. They've had a great revenge. Also a crucial contribution to the outcome of the BoB!!
@reAction : The Hurricane I had no chance against the Bf 109E if the German pilot started with a height advantage and used dive and zoom tactics.
The only problem with dive and zoom tactics for an escort fighter is that it leaves the bombers unprotected while the escort fighter is zooming upwards to regain his height advantage. In that time, a Hurricane could make an attack run on the German bombers and shoot one down.
That made the German bomber pilots complain to their general, and then the 109s get ordered to fly close escort and not leave the immediate vicinity of the bombers (including altitude) for any reason.
Once the 109 is tied to the German bombers and unable to have a height advantage or use dive and zoom tactics, only horizontal turns, the Hurricane has the advantage because it can turn tighter than the 109. Many 109s were shot down that way, basically forced to use themselves as human shields to protect the bombers.
God that poor 109
"Just kill me already"
"I'm trying!"
7.7mm: Death of a Thousand Cuts.
Its like firing Match Sticks With tracer imo. I always try to aim for the nose when the 109 is climbing or turning in warthunder. Based on The polish pilots and Douglas Bader historical use 300m is the best range to open up.
The British .303 round was really a rifle round. Rifle caliber bullets had obvious problems in air to air combat, and as the Battle of Britain wore on, senior RAF officers were practically begging for the .303 to be replaced with cannons.
The RAF also changed their tactics during the Battle of Britain. They realized rifle caliber bullets were largely ineffective against bombers when attacking from the rear because German bombers had armor. So whenever they could, the RAF used head-on attacks, which were effective because the .303 rounds could hit the bomber's engines and crew.
Yeah playing Il2 the Mgs on that are useless the IL2s cannons do the most damage mgs are ok against soft skinned vehicles tho
@@DaveGIS123 i personally think 7.7mm has it own advantage that if you can aim at the engine block or cockpit it holds more ammo and weight somewhat less. 20mm are objectively better against 190 radial however as there isn't any radiator to blow up in the nose.
@@Errorcutive thing with the 20mm vs 7 .7mm is, you need to get 1 good shot with 20mm to take your target down. Clipping a wing, wrecking the engine, blowing the pilot to pieces etc. You may pepper your target with 7mms and deal next to no damage, your shots can fail to penetrate due to armor protecting fuel tanks/pilot etc. Sure you have a lot of them but each time you pull the trigger you fire 12 of them at a time which consumes that ammo count real fast. Another downside is your guns are essentially peashooters at longer ranges.
It is my understanding that the ineffectiveness of the 303 rounds was largely exaggerated, in no small part due to the fact that many British pilots were frustrated with being unable to confirm their kills. what they didn't know was that a good majority of 109s that were riddled with small-caliber machine gun fire were lost on the flight home, many pilots having to ditch their birds before making it to the airfields, and even those that managed to limp home had to be completely scrapped and never flew again.
Unfortunately for the British pilots, they weren't around to witness these events, and the knowledge was never made clear until after the war. Naturally if you can't confirm that the plane you were shooting at went down for good, then you're going to point out that you feel like you might as well be shooting spitballs and your planes need bigger guns.
There’s ALWAYS a need for a bigger gun.
To be fair they DID need bigger guns tho
That may be true, so the argument against the .303 becomes "Aircraft are easier to replace than pilots. If the pilot makes it home in one piece, it doesn't matter how shot up the aircraft is because they'll just issue him another one, and then you're facing him again the next day. If instead you blow his wing off with a 20 mm, he's out of the war."
Fun fact....the Luftwaffe Lost more aircraft to flying accidents then to the RAF in the BOB.
I don't know how historically accurate this is but from my experience in IL2 if you are able to cause a coolant leak to a 109 it doesn't take long for his engine to over heat and seize.
What I do know historically form reading BoB pilots testimony is that they got real close to an enemy and that was enough to shoot them down with the .303. Obviously the .303 was an effective round because the RAF won the BoB.
First, The 109 E7 had two MG FF/M 20 mm canons, which a lot of people have pointed out. But I think it matters little as whether it's a Mk108 30mm or a FF/M 20mm, it's gonna shred the Hurricane with a few shots.
No, my gripe is with how the 109 pilot was flying. As the Americans quickly learned with Zeros, "Never Turnfight a Turnfighter", same is true for the Bf109 and the Hurricane. The Bf109E7 had a max speed of 580kmph, and a climbrate of around 18m/s. The Hurricane had a max speed of 510kmph and a climbrate of 11 m/s. The difference is massive. Turn time (21.0 seconds for Bf109 and 15.0 seconds for the Hurricane) is where the hurricane enjoys such an advantage that it's not even worth contesting for the 109 pilot. Unless he is forced by some external factors, he will never take the bait.
He would never have merged with the Hurricane at the same altitude to begin with, but considering he did, he would never turn towards the Hurricane, as he can just extend away, put his plane at a climb, gain some altitude and boom and zoom the hurricane again and again until it crashes. The 109 also has better Energy Retention than the Hurricane so it won't even take that long to retry after one BnZ attempt has failed.
It's a lopsided fight if the 109 pilot has any clue what he's doing. These machines are night and day, all those machine guns are worthless if you never have a shot on target.
Yeah I agree. A good 109 pilot should be able to fly circles(figuratively) around a hurricane all day. All you have to do is climb and stay in the vertical and the hurricane really can't do much
@@Garthbrooks4756 Something that always seems to be left out of history (and games especially) was the quality of aviation fuel available to the Luftwaffe in WW2. Most of the German aviation fuel was made by hydrogenating coal, which results in a poor quality fuel. Whatever power the DB601 had on paper it could be losing as much as 200bhp when the fuel being used was taken into account. That's something that robbed Luftwaffe pilots of a lot of their advantages during the war, especially when the RAF and USAAF had reliable access to 100 Octane Avgas, outrunning and energy fighting even Hurricanes could be far from a done deal for a BF109 pilot in 1940.
Actually for the first fight I assumed it was an AI, I have seen quite a few patterns stereotypical for how the AI flies.
@@fix0the0spade That's not true at all. German Luftwaffe always used the same fuel in their tests as what was being used in aircraft on the front lines. It was all the same fuel, because there was so little of it. Where did you get your information?
Len Deighton wrote a book on the comparative strengths and weaknesses of the opposing fighters of that time. It included an analysis of the different gun configurations. If I remember correctly, the eight gun .303 configuration came in 3rd, but if the pilot was willing to get very close, ( inside 200 yards,) the eight gun configuration was devastating.
Does anyone else miss the uber-dramatic, slow motion kill shots with the choir in the background? Easily one of the best parts of these videos that sets GS apart from other sim content creators.
they'll be back buddy don't worry.
That second 109 didn’t even look like he was trying to get his guns on target
Video may just be an advert in disguise for the Hurricane?? 🤔🤔🤔
Really enjoying the rate that you’re putting out quality videos lately. Keep it up man. Love the channel
very kind of you thank you.
1:52 "There's a whole in your left wing!"
Is is a whole hole or just a partial hole? 😁
@@TarnishUK If it’s a whole hole, wouldn’t that mean that wing just fell off?
@@chrischan8282 And if it isn't, it's not a whole hole, its a hole. :D
“Attack the D point!”
War thunder is a good and shit game at the same time
Hey man, it's nice to see IL-2 Sturmovik getting some love on your channel! Don't get around much to the comment section on your videos but I definitely still watch and like them all.
You've gotta remember; the Hurricane is a very early fighter aircraft (1937) compared to say later models of the Spitfire (1941), the P-51 Mustang (1942), or the Focke-Wulf 190 (1941). Even the US, Soviet and German fighters were most often using 7.62 or 7.92mm machine guns as their main armament during this period.
Meanwhile the 20mm Hispano cannons were causing huge amounts of recoil for the very light airframes, which also weren't able to carry a lot of ammunition for them. The 7.7mm was just considered a more CONSISTENT weapon overall, although by 1939 Britain was desperately trying to manufacture enough 20mm's for all their Hurricanes, Spitfires, Typhoons and Whirlwhinds
fancy seeing you here koala :D
Also weren't the Hispano cannons prone to jamming until they found a work around?
@@Wavey1988 They where very unreliable through the war, this is why most planes had auxiliary machineguns
I play a lot of Cliffs of Dover, so I’ve been on the other end of those .303’s many times. Structurally you’re alright, but trust me those little stingers are causing havoc on the inside. I’d still prefer to have .50’s or especially 20mm’s. Great video!
The trick with the 7.7mms was the gun convergence and relatively close range of engagement. Even though you can clip a wingtip with them at flatter angles (basically sawing it off), you shouldn't bother with wings and just aim at the engine, since at least one of those rounds is bound to hit something vital. Leaking water and fuel might not seem such a big deal, but in BoB, it most certainly was since it meant that the 109 had to disengage immediately or he would have to ditch in the channel. Fuel leaks especially, since the Emils didn't have a big enough range to loiter around Dover for more than 10-ish minutes. In fact, the British experimented with 12.7mm MGs, but found them unsatisfactory, so they skipped them. It was mainly since the 7.7s were sufficient enough, as the early German planes weren't that much armored compared to their successors. The trade-off wasn't worth it since the benefits were small compared to the increase in weight and decrease in performance, and they didn't want to have to readjust the production lines for it. The 8 x 7.7mm were thus regarded as a good-enough armament to tackle fighters with.
I don't know specifically which one came first, but both Hurricane and Spitfire were experimented on regarding 20mm cannons. Hurricane was equipped with 20mm Oerlikon cannon gunpods and proved horrendous in terms of flight performance, whilst the Spitfire (Mk.IB) had the 7.7s removed and was armed with only 2x20mms Hispano cannons (2x60 rounds). It proved a lot better, and although the guns jammed frequently, the potential was recognized and the cannon installations were improved and combined with 4 x 7.7mm. This was mainly done to combat the bomber threat, and Hurricanes would primarily be sent against bombers, whilst the spitfires would tackle fighters (Worth to mention that the Beaufighter and Blenheim variants were also used for anti-bomber sorties, and often get overshadowed and underappreciated)
To differentiate different armaments, wing-types were named:
A wing - the original, 4 x 7.7mm
B wing - 1 x 20mm (60 rpg) + 2 x 7.7mm (Spitfire); 6 x 7mm (Hurricane)
C wing (also known as the universal wing) - 2 x 20mm + a hardpoint to attach a 250lbs or 500lbs bomb
D wing - 1 x 47mm Vickers S + 1 x 7.7mm (For the Hurricane, most famously used in Africa for anti-tank sorties, by the No. 6 squadron. The squadron would come to be known as "The flying tin openers". The tropical variants of the hurricanes and spitfires had the dust filter mounted onto the engine section, and were given the /trop designation); No armament, used for Photo-reconnaissance (In Spitfires)
E wing - 1 x 20mm (120 rpg) + 1 x 12.7mm + hardpoints (250lbs/500lbs bomb or up to 4 x RP-3 rocket) (This became the standard for spitfires); The Hurricane changes were too significant that it became classified as a separate variant - the Mk. IV. The armament consisted of a single 7.7mm for aiming purposes, and either a single 47mm Vickers S, or 500lbs bomb, or 4 x RP-3 rockets (At this point, the Hurricane was replaced by the Typhoon)
Soviets asked for and were leased various Hurricane variants, ranging from A to D. When Hurricanes were delivered to the Soviet Union, the soviets looked at the A and B wings, chuckled, and replaced them with 2x12.7mm Berezin UBs + 2x20mm ShVAKs (They also used 4 x 12.7mm and 4 x 20mm combinations, as well as combining the 12.7mms and 20mms with 4 to 6 x 7.7mm), and modified the wings to carry 6 x RS-82 / RBS-82 rockets. There were even field modifications for FAB-100 bombs, as well as a tail gunner. They were mainly used in PVO (Air defence)
Hope it was a fun read :)
Nice vid. Rifle-caliber ammo was standard in most interwar designs, with every major power using it on their aircraft.
You never fail to amaze me
Great video. Just a precision: only the first round Me-109 was an "Emil" (E-4 or E-7), the second round Me-109 was an G-6 it seems (rounden wing tips, different nose, 20 mm cannons on wing pods, etc).
On the documentary, "Spitfire Voices" it was said, "If you knew it was going to be a good day, and you wanted to look good, take a Spitfire. If it was a bad day, be in a Hurricane". Nice vids, you should be known as the chuckling assassin.
Love the HURRICANE. It was the plane that was there when you needed it.
"I don't know who decided on 7.7mm..."
UK had millions of rounds of this left over from WW1 and couldn't get 20mm working in the rush of war in 39-40
"Americans had the .50.."
Americans had the .50 when they joined the war *two years later*, at which point the RAF had the 20mm
The US was already deploying .50 cal MGs on fighters by the time of the Battle of Britain. So, yes, “Americans had the .50” is an accurate statement. Granted, two to four of them at a time, in 1940. But the P-47 would be in service a year later, with four in each wing root. Appearing around the same time as the first stopgap measures to get the 20mm to cycle somewhat reliably. So I think the comparisons here are fair.
@@Activated_Complex In 1941 the RAF had multiple aircraft with a 4 20mm Hispano cannon armanent- The Spitfire VC, the Bristol Beaufighter, the Westland Whirlwind and the Hurricanes with the type C wing. When the US first tried mounting 4 20mm Hispano cannons on the Corsair, they considered the arrangement to be overpowered. The P-47 didn't enter service until late 1942, and didn't see combat until March 1943. However, it did have an edge when it was introduced because early Hispanos didn't like to operate without jamming.
The Western Allies didn't need heavy cannons as much as the Germans did after 1940, because they were mostly shooting at German fighters. The Germans after 1940 were mostly engaging Allied bombers. The 30mm cannons were for shooting down bombers. It was hard to hit a fighter with the slow 30mm rounds. But the .303 (7.7mm) was just too light a round with too short an effective range, especially against bombers. The .50 was about the best fighter vs. fighter weapon in WWII. A good combination of hitting power, rate of fire, and ammo capacity.
Great vid as it is the norm with your channel GS, but a small comment about the guns. Emil's nor Friedreich's had the 30mm, they both used 20s, two in the Emil and one on the F4, since the F2 used a rather anemic 15mm later rebored to 20mm in the 20X82mm format, slightly less powerful than hispanos. The mighty 30s came with the Gustav's. Farewell matey and keep up the good work!
Great dogfights and beautiful aircraft; the Hurricane was the 1st scale model that i did and yeah, it haves a place on my heart too.
Wasn't there a similar complaint in the Vietnam war?
US ground forces were given 5.56mm rather than 7.62. The "M" in M16 was cynically called Mattel.
9:30 Like listening to rain hit the roof. I almost fell asleep.
After that f 14 fight, he needed a break from the jets lol
I read a book from the library about the battle of Britain about the hurricane, also but in 1960. I
wish I could find that book because it made me a life long fan! Thanks for the Video.
Awesome to see you fly in one of my favourite all time aircraft. Very underrated. The Mk 1 came out with a fixed pitch wooden prop and 8 .303 machine guns. Later to get the 3 bladed variable pitch prop.
It was pretty robust, the armament wasn't bad for the opening year of the war at least (the Spit had the same) and it was more maneuverable that the Spit or the 109. I'm sure you know all this btw.
As you said it was the unsung hero of the BoB shooting down more aircraft than the Spit (there were more Hurricanes in service though). Another advantage, simpler construction than the Spit so easier to build, repair and build faster.
As it was they had just enough of them just in time to fight the BoB.
They were slower than their contemporaries though. TBH I think the outcome of most of the encounters they went through back then were the result of who saw who first, the respective positions of the aircraft and then the tactics used, not to mention the experience of the pilots involved.
I've read that the pilot had to fly with dash and determination in the Hurricane to win against 109's whereas the Spit was more on par.
Great vid btw.
You are killing it with these uploads
**German 30mm in intro** Enemy rekt in 1 hit.
**P-39 37mm in game** Enemy not rekt in 1 hit.
idk man. My 37mm in war thunder works pretty well.
He was never making it home towards the end there mate. you had atleast fairly well decimated his coolant radiator. his engine would've seized well before making the French coast I think.
Thanks for the first 2.5mins of the video. Awesome to see the hitting power of the 30mm!!
Amazing damage by that 30mm round...now show this to the director of 'Red tails ' and the scene where they guy takes four of those 30mm head on in a p51 from a me262 and he can still fly and talk after that (well he crasched after a while tho)
They actually bounced off his wings lmao.
The MG FF/M fired a 20mm round not a 30mm round.
The MG17 fired a 7.7mm round the same as the .303 round.
I really loved the information on bullet sizes and the old ww2 footage at the beggining of the video!!
I dont know much about dogfighting, but it's always so interesting to watch! keep it up c:
best Hurricane pilots used 150m range set for guns, and opened fire from 100 up to 50 meters - at this range, they are quite nice. Nice flying, pleasure to watch.
Thanks for explaining the calibers, I was just playin go this yesterday and did a fight where I was in a bf109 and killed a spitfire in one burst lol
More IL2 please, best ww2 sim out there hand down. Damage model is AMAZING so satisfying to watch a damaged wing slowly bend and snap off due to damage and slightly over-stressing it.
The aircraft feel amazing to fly feel like im flying a plane and not a paper plane that flops around the sky.
Please do P51D-15 vs K4 which will provide a good comparison to the DCS one you did not long ago, especially since you get the 150 Octane fuel that the P51 deserves
I think convergence of the .707 rounds was also a factor. If you set them all at specific distance, ( I believe RAF pilots later during the BOB set it around 120 or so Yards ) it had a bit power effect on German airframes .
Nice flying. Once I had the honour of sitting in a Hurricane that was being restored in Assiniboia Saskatchewan many years ago. A guy named Harry Werat had quite a collection of WWII aircraft and Merlin engines.
Love the videos. a few points to make. rifle caliber machine guns where the standard for almost all air forces in the late '30's. The armament evolved through the war as everybody added armour to the aircraft. the 109 E7 had 2 x 7.92mm machine guns in the engine cowling, and 2 more in the wings. as well as 1 20mm firing through the propeller hub. later variants had different weapons. early Hurricanes and spitfires had 8 x .303 Brownings. Then came the 12 gun Hurri and the last variant with 4 x 20mm.
A lot of planes of the era of the Hurricane were wood and cloth covered so the .303 especially 12 of them was pretty effective. One thing to consider is the weight. Your plane is lighter and can out turn everything. You get them down in the weeds and you have all day long to kill them.
Love to see you doing IL-2 and warbirds now. Superb flying and commentary as always. I see many corrected you on the mistake about E7 and weaponry. However, that's not an E7 you're fighting in the last round.That's Gustav, and armed in bomber destroyer config with extra cannon pods that were indeed 30mm. The Emil had completely different looks: it had squared off wingtips, huge intake for cooling in middle of the spinner, guns in wings, not mounted in those nacelles under, and distinct support stubs under horizontal stabilizers. That cammo is also late war 109, while Hurricane is strangely with D-day stripes.
Battle of Britain Hurricane was mk1, and didn't have 12, but only 8 guns.
Cheers.
Love the video's. The 8 .303's of the hurricane and spitfire fared fine against the 2 x7.92 and 2x20mm of the early 109's. Pilots had to be marksmen, and most still preferred the .303 Browning's even after the 20mm Hispano became more prevalent.
Just some detail as to the explosive effect of the rounds.
For comparison, the US/UK pineapple type hand grenade carried something over 50 grams of explosives.
The allied 20mm cannon, based on the Hispano gun, first carried between 6 and 11 grams, later versions 14 grams.
The early German 20mm cannon, the MG FF type also based on the Hispano as well as the later MG 151/20 carried special minnen-geschoss cartridge with thinner walls containing some 18.6 grams of explosives. That would mean every hit by a German 20mm shell caused an explosion (if it didn't fail) comparable to one third of the power of an allied hand grenade.
The 30mm German shell from the Mk 108 cannon, using the same design of thin-walled shells, carried first 85 grams, later 72 grams of explosives. So each hit had greater effect than a hand grenade explosion.
This is great stuff, I moved from 109s over to the mighty Wulf and haven’t looked back. Speed, firepower and a zoom climb that blows your mind. Would love to see you fight in any of the 190s.
Nice. Glad to see some IL-2. Will be sticking around more for this!
Up to that point, rifle calibre ammunition had perfectly servicable for the downing of aircraft. The use of a number of regular machineguns was enough until people developed much better airframes, but you could fairly quickly tear apart a '30s era aircraft with just a mass of .303 or .30-06 fire.
true, the Brits never had any issue downing German twin bombers, 110s, or Stukas with the .303.
I would love to see group tactics like you’ve done with jets in the past but using these WW2 fighters!! I love watching how you plan and fly with a squadron and I would love to see the tactics involved with flying WW2 planes in a group as well! Love the vids, keep up the great work!!
I haven't even gotten to the main meat yet but that test firing of the cannon on the Spit is scary. It took me 3 viewings to see the elevator sag as all the control wires had been severed. Beyond it being sheared off by the force of the cannons impact. Scary stuff
Love the Hurricane! One of my favorites WW2 aircraft As always, love your content. Keep it coming!!
Emils have 20mm.
ur correct when i made the intro I thought i'd be fighting f4s I believe those have 30mm
I think the first BF109 to be (optionally) equipped with 30mm was a BF109 G-6. It was a Mk 108 cannon.
However 20mm is a better weapon when used against fighters because of higher rate-of-fire, superior ballistics and larger amount of ammo.
@@GrowlingSidewinder isnt bf109e sopposed to fly against hurrican mk1?
Dang sidewinder he has some cat in him because he has 9 lives right.enjoy the hell out of the videos keep them coming.god bless and god speed brother.
What I find interesting is that when the Spitfire Vb was introduced with 2 20 mm guns and 4 7.7 mm guns, the fighter ace Douglas Bader didn't like the cannons and insisted that he preferred the 8 brownings found on the Spitfire mk I, II, and Va
I've read a lot about Bader, but nothing about whether he was a good aerial marksman or not. If he was not a good shot, more smaller-caliber guns would have at least given him a better shot at getting some hits than fewer, bigger guns would have.
@@RANDALLBRIGGS I mean 22 aerial victories implies he was at least a reasonably good shot
The 303 was the standard round throughout all of the services. We had millions of them. When we was under siege we couldn't really get the materials to make the bigger rounds in ant amount.
The real footage at the beginning was a really nice touch, I'd like to see more. The WW2 content is much appreciated. You mentioned reading books as a kid, do you have any recommendations? Long form videos from combat box sorties with tacview would be awesome.
Suggestion: when you have .303's, pretend you're in a WWI fighter. Get close. the .303 loses to much power at distance. You're used to cannon. They have a lot more energy, at the ranges you were shooting from.
Nicely made video and good use of Tacview but you seem to have forgotten that the RAF were fighting in 1939 when air to air cannons were not normal. Even when the RAF got the first 20mm cannons a couple of years later, many squadrons asked them to be changed back to 303s because the cannons kept jamming. Eight reliable 303s is better than two or four jammed cannons. Most of the 109s brought down during the Battle Of Britain were brought down by coolant failure and the 303 was perfectly adequate for wrecking the exposed radiators, It was also very effective at destroying bomber engines, especially at convergence where you had 8 or 12 streams of 303s hitting a very small area.
What you were doing in that fight was getting many small hits on wings and fuselage because you are used to the idea of 'fire enough shells and one might hit and that will do a lot of damage.' The RAF pilots of the early 40s flew with the idea 'No point spraying bullets and hoping to hit something vital. Get the range right and put your bullets in a vital place.' I agree, and they agreed later, that cannon is better but in the battle Of Britain they learned to fly and shoot with 303s in mind as that is what they had.
I also suspect that BoX is a little too forgiving when it comes to coolant loss. In CLoD once you destroyed a 109s radiator he was pretty much done for and would lose his engine within a few minutes but here someone can keep fighting for 5 minutes then fly all the way home. Perhaps CLoD was too far the other way but it is a fact that a 109 pilot over Kent who lost his radiator would rather ditch and be captured than trust his engine to last the mere 20 mile journey back to France.
Used to play Aces High, and would love flying the Hurricane MK I with 8 .303s. Managed to surprise someone in a P-38. Think the sudden burst of hits caused such a surprise he lost control of the plane and spun to his death. Another time managed to sneak up on a low and slow P-47 and basically form up with him. Lit him up so bad managed to actually get him to explode.
Love the Hurricane! :D
@Growling Sidewinder please do a featured dogfight with you flying the FW-190 D9 Dora please. The D9 Dora was not well known by most people since it was overshadowed by the more available main-stay BF-109 G but in fact the FW-190 D9 was a very high performing high altitute interceptor of the Luftwaffe during WWII. It earn the nickname of "Mustang Killer" from Luftwaffe Veteran pilots as a testament to its remarkable performance. It was the only up-to-par fighter available for the Luftwaffe during the late period of 1944 that in the hands of experience pilots could put up more than a match for Mustangs or Spitfires while the rest of the German air service are given underperforming BF-109 G Models that just doesn't stand a chance against Mustangs or Spitfire IX or anything the allies are flying at that time.
Entertaining video and very educational with that great intro. GOOD STUFF!
I dont know why the bf109 is trying to turn fight should just extend and boom n zoom
it also annoys me
@@Odibio.Skins. It seems a promotion Hurricane video
A hurricane isn't going to win against a 109 unless the 109 makes grave mistakes, as these ones did. There is a reason why the Hurricanes were sent after the bombers. A 109 playing the energy game as he should would be untouchable.
The AI in IL-2 is not quite that clever, especially when it’s set to easy or normal.
And loving the WW2 content by the way, thanks for posting!
Try the Hurricane in CloD using AP and incendiary rounds with very close convergence. That’s what worked well for the RoF - more of a shotgun/flamer combo. Most of my 109 kills are flamers. Also, remember that a radiator hit over England would often be game over for a 109; you won’t get your quick kill but that engine will cease before you get home - again a lot of my 109 kills in CloD come from slow bleeds following by channel ditches. Check out my CloD vid on the Hurri
Great video, though the standard German cannon had a 20mm shell much like the Hispano. Only a few late war aircraft used the 30mm MK108! The Bf 109 E-7 seen here has two 20mm MG FF cannons
You have to look at the history before passing comment on RAF gun calibres early in the war. The decision on armament was made pre war with primarily an eight gun .303" Browning fit selected for both the Hurricane and Spitfire. Of course once the war started it quickly became apparent that the .303 on it's own as insufficient especially against bombers. The main advantage of the eight gun Browning fit was it placed somewhat less pressure on a pilot's marksmanship with its almost shotgun effect than did the 7.92mm MG / 20mm cannon combo in the Me109. As mentioned the Spitfire IIB had x2 20mm Hispano and x4 .303" fitted but problems with the installation, in particular reliable ammo feed under high G manoeuvres limited it's utilisation during the Battle of Britain. That problem was of course eventually overcome in time for use in the Spitfire MkV
Ikr Gen Boots’ Blesse said,when that 30 mm was behind you(Mig15) you could feel the vibrations in the rudder pedal, go left or right but don’t fly level, n that was in an F86 Sabre!!‼️‼️‼️
The .303 round was the same cartridge used by the infantry's Lee Enfield Rifles and the Vickers machine gun so there was a lot of it around. I guess that is why it was used in the Spitfire and Hurricane
Both the Spitfire and Hurricane used .303 rifle calibre ammunition because we had plenty of them. In 1940, cannons were still being developed for the Spitfire. The Hurricanes main role, was to attack the bombers leaving the Spitfire free to engage the fighters.
one of the most calmest dogfights i've ever seen
The 30mm Aden was a post ww2 canon. It was fitted to the Harrier. I have an empty shell casing from one. German BF 109's and FW 190 had 20mm cannon.
According to a Spitfire pilot who fought in WW2, you get in close to Jerry and keep firing. You don't let go for a good 5-7 seconds. That would usually do the job
In that footage there at the beginning, you can tell that plane was screwed the moment its control surfaces dropped. That's awesome.
I'd like to see some of the Italian Fighters like the Macchi MC.202 and 205 versus the Allied fighters, as they were great planes by all accounts, the MC.205 Veltro in particular was called the best dogfighter outside of the P-51D Mustang.
The Germans were partial to the Re.2005
@@180791sanguinius Yeah the Germans loved Italian aircraft designs especially the mid/late war 5 series like the Mc.205, Re.2005 and the Fiat G.55.
"Sadly" Italy never had the industrial capability to produce them in large enough quantities to make much of a difference.
Great video, really enjoying the WW2 content.
Fin fact: The early Hurricane was fabric skinned and mostly wood struts/stringers.
Aft of the cockpit, all Hurricanes had fabric-covered fuselages. The primary structure was a Warren truss box-girder steel longerons and duralumin cross-bracing. Over this, a secondary structure of wooden formers and stringers gave the fuselage a rounded shape, which was covered with doped linen. Early Mk. Is also had fabric-covered wings and 2-blade, fixed-pitch props. Apparently, some of those were still around during the Battle of Britain. But they would have been retro-fitted with either adjustable-pitch props or, later, constant-speed props.
I like the thought process behind the Hurricane Mk IIB. "These eight 303s are too weak to damage enemy aircraft... I've got it! Let's add four more!"
The Hurricane during the Battle of Britain, although being the highest scorer, was not generally loved by its pilots. It was pretty much a 1930s biplane with an excellent Merlin engine and without the extra wing. The cockpit was a seat mounted in an open fuselage, behind the instrument panel was a fuel tank. The plane struggled to get to altitude and perform beyond 20,000 ft (-25c) and the pilot had no heating or rudder trim, constantly manually correcting propeller torque. These young men aged 18-25, predominantly not officers, could be basking in shirtsleeves in 25c sunshine then following a scramble find themselves shivering on the half hour transit to altitude to intercept the bandits. Then when they got in firing range the.303 rifle rounds did little damage to a Heinkel or Dornier unless extremely accurate or lucky. They did the job in the end though and this was, for the Hurricane, it's finest hour. And for the brave, brave boys who perished in the defence of our Island "we will remember you".
Some Hurricane drivers have insisted in interviews that they wouldn’t have traded their machines in for Spitfires, and there were squadrons of the RAF who protested mightily when the orders came down to do so. It seems rather rare to find a veteran of combat in a particular flying machine with very harsh things to say about it. Understandable, really, as they lived to tell their story.
But even setting that aside, there were some admirable qualities to the Hurricane. While largely keeping up with the early war Spitfires in performance, it was also a great gun platform. In part because the downwards angle of the nose obscured little of the pilot’s view when applying lead to a target. And there are anecdotes of Hurricanes struck in the tail by German cannon fire (granted, at fortuitous angles) simply needing the cloth patched over where the shell passed clean through.
@@Activated_Complex Wouldn't argue too much with any of that and I think you are right the flimsy fabric fuselage sometimes did allow projectiles to pass through causing little damage. Tom Neal in his book "Gun Button Set to Fire" sets his frustrations at the Hurri's inadequacies out repeatedly but it remains the true hero of the BoB.
The Hurricane IIB had 12 X .303in MG. Some BF 109E's during the early war years, including the Battle of Britain, had 7.7mm MG fitted due to a shortage of 20mm Oerlikon cannons, which by the way suffered from low muzzle velocity and therefore poor accuracy and a low rate of fire. The first hurricane to receive cannon was the IIC which entered service mid-1941, after the Spit IIB and VB cannon-armed spits entered service.
And as you allude to with the 30mm test, the airframe was sitting on blocks, and not subject to flying stresses. Even less 'vital' looking hits on a hard-turning aircraft could result in a rapid unscheduled disassembly ...
The 7.7mm. is more lethal on IL-2 CloD because players can customise individual gun ammo belts with a wide variety of 7.7mm. ammunition types. getting the right mix makes a big difference to effectiveness.
Ball (3 types): Rips off panels, control surfaces, etc. but stopped easily by armour plating.
AP: Smashes engine blocks, penetrates armour plating, breaks propeller blades, kills pilots, damages airframe, etc.
Incendiary: Causes fires to control surfaces, fuel tanks, etc.
Observer (exploding): Sets off fuel leaks, smashes control surfaces, one shot kills air gunners on bombers, etc.
Tracer (4 types): Shows where shots are going.
Would you consider having small cameras of your joystick, throttle and rudder? I also watch driving sim streamers and it really helps to see how they manage their gas/break/clutch.
I'm amazed at the way you keep the 109 so steady.
Love your videos. I've been a huge flight sim fan and War Bird aficionado since Flight Simulator on my Commodore 64 in the early 80s. The 109E-7 would have had (2) 20mm MG-FF/M cannon (60 rounds each) in the wings and (2) 7.92mm MG17 machine guns (1,000 rounds each) over the engine firing through the prop arc. The 30mm MK108 wasn't used in the 109s until the G6 model in early 1943
I found the spitfire can fly without wings. I got into a dog fight the other day and on the return, I could feel she was a bit stiff in turning. When I did an external view I had no wings. I landed without blowing up too which was helpful as I got the Repair team on it. That's the Handy thing about DCS.
Great to see my love getting some love!
The .303 browning where generally considered more reliable early on. They tried to get the 20mm hispanos working but ran into issues early on with them.
And the British had alot, and I mean alot of 303 ammo left over from the Great war.
The MoD still had stocks of surplus .303 in storage until recently. The last stocks of surplus .303 where sold on the civilian shooters market around 2007 I think.
Love the Il2 content, keep it up!!
The first one was an Emil, but the second one showed rounded wing tips and nose cone. As it has two underwing cannons, it must be a G-series.
At least F onwards, easily. G series was when they started getting real bloody fast
F!
When the war first started the MoD had excess Browning machine guns with the calibre of 7.7 or 303, leftovers from WW1, so considering the urgency that Britain found itself in they used those stocks. As you can see that with them loading Spitfires and Hurricanes with eight to twelve of them. After they had shortages they retooled what was left to 50 calibres and fitted cannons as well. It's not the size of the rounds that matter but the combined weight of rounds delivered.
14:12 true 7.7mm
Never cease to fail us bro but not gonna lie i LMAO when you said OH YEAH keep up the great work bro.Damn those 7.7mm are useless
The RAF stuck with the. 303 Brownings as they wanted a gun with a high rate of fire and aerial combat had shirg engagement times that cannons could not match. These guns used the same ammunition as the SMLE, Bren guns and Vickers heavy machine guns used by the army, it simplified the supply chain.
If I recall correctly the British tested .303, an older .50 and 20 mm just before WWII. They correctly concluded that the .303 is too weak, but the .50 cal that they had available had low fire rate and even if that is fixed it would be an intermediate solution. The 20 mm was chosen as the best choice, but they had some problems with it that were not fixed until midwar.
So they used 7.7 mm machineguns because the .50 cals weren't that much better and the 20 mm was not available.
Small nitpick but world war 2 planes, and some cold war ones don't have a "HUD", you said "pull him into the HUD" but it's the pipper or the gunsight? A heads up display combines the aiming reticle and ranging information with flying information such as speed and altitude, the angle you're facing.
Harrumph! The .303 was devastating to The Hun in the Enfield back in the Big One in '17.
Tradition, don't you know, Old Chap! 🎩