@@JoeMagician as intelligent, well read, and as well versed in politics (or rather, his version of them....) you'd think Stannis would have had a clue, especially now after the entire Renly saga answer how many of his Stormlands soldiers folded at the sight of Renlys Ghost. But he didnt, but he had the better idea by going North anyway.
A couple notes all these years later- 1) I believe Daeron gave Dark Sister to Bloodraven, not Aegon IV. One might see this as Daeron both rewarding a loyal and capable ally and reestablishing that it’s normal to gift a Targaryen sword to a bastard, and it doesn’t mean anything special for inheritance. 2) I think Daeron isn’t legitimate and Bloodraven knew it, or knows it as the three eyed crow. This explains why the “brother he loved, brother he hated” only includes two brothers. This would leave Daemon and Bittersteel as the two most important brothers in his life, and Daeron would be a cousin. Otherwise, his omission of Daeron from this list does seem a little weird.
To me it often seems like some Targaryen's get almost magical charisma and magnetism. Rhaegar, Jon Snow and Daemon BF come to mind. The loyalties/devotion/rivalries they inspire seem to far exceed their deeds and achievements. Danny also inspires some intense loyalty but she is a dragon owning liberator of slaves so that seems a bit more proportional.
I don’t know if that can be entirely attributed to magic. After all Bobby B and 16 year old Robb Stark also won allies through a combination of victories and charisma
@@starwarsnerd100 sure. Although I would argue: -Rob Stark relied heavily on the his vasal lords loyalty to his father until he earned his own loyalty and reputation. Even then that loyalty was challenged and tested. -Bobby B had his own brand of charisma and again it seemed earned. Even then a few dashes of Targ blood were in his veins.
Conquest wasn’t necessarily just about Daeron’s vanity. It totally could be and it wouldn’t be out of place for the character we are presented, but that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a practical reason for Daeron to conquer Dorne. That being the death of the dragons. I find it more than a little shocking that the death of the dragons didn’t lead to the immediate regression of Targ-rule across every corner of the realm…if not via direct rebellions then at least through powerful Lords restarting the kind of wars amongst each other, that the dragons had kept them from since Aegon’s conquest. In our world many dynasties collapsed because bad harvests & plagues made their subordinates & subjects believe that they had lost heaven's/god’s favor…nevermind if they had had living-nukes that were both the symbols & backbones of your conquest, which suddenly went extinct. Without the source of his family’s power, the kingship became much more vulnerable & beholden to the desires of the nobility…and for Westerosi lords who were not allowed to pillage one another, pillaging Dorne was the only other option for the war & plunder that they needed to maintain the support of their own men & subordinate lords. So some of the decision to conquer dorne can be explained by having to redirect his subordinates need for plunder, now that he no longer had the power to just quash each & every uprising from dragon back...and some of it can be explained by needing to show that the dynasty was still strong and capable of new accomplishments even without the dragons. Kinda how the war of the ninepenny kings brought the realm together, only for Aerys to steer it off of a cliff. I have a very pro-dornish perspective, so I don’t exactly have sympathy for those imperialistic impulses, but they’re more a symptom of the system than the results of any individual’s personal shortcomings.
Well, there is a more solid reason why Blackfyre is the sword of kings, and that is Dark Sister. The Targs always had two valyrian steel swords, Blackfyre and Dark Sister. Blackfyre was almost always held by the ruling lord, which of course later became king. Whereas Dark Sister became the sword of the warrior or enforcer, as Viserys I held Blackfyre and Daemon the Rogue Prince held Dark Sister. Since those two contrast in their wielder, Blackfyre looks to become the sword for kings.
I have only the one problem: why do people presume Daemon, if innocent of plotting rebellion, had only the one option when people came to arrest him? Most people wrongly accused will want a trial to prove their innocence. Some might take refuge in another country and claim their innocence from a distance. Not everyone thinks rebellion... well, you have already established thinking is not Daemon’s best skill.
Targaryen moment-king starts a war by cheating on his sister with his cousin. Of all of Aegon’s bastards daemon’s mother being a royal was probably a big reason he was elevated
If Aegon IV turns out to actually be Rhaegar's son then he has the stronger claim than Dany. But tbh if doesn't matter about claims its who ever has the power to take the Throne. You can just fudge up legitimacy once it's been taken
It took me a couple of days to finish this one lol so I'm late in saying that it's great to have you back brother hope you had a nice break. And as always cheers for the content.
A bit late to the party but I believe the whole "kinslaying" thing with Bloodraven against Daemon is more-so people just not liking Bloodraven, even though he basically ended a terrible and bloody war. We have something almost identical with Jaime killing Aerys, which probably saved the entire city (though iirc not many knew about the wildfire). And yes like you mentioned him using a (magical?) arrow instead of facing him in "honorable" combat is a contributing factor, especially when you consider how engrossed people were with Daemons fights during the final battle, and the honor he showed to his enemies. Which makes me wonder, how was Daemons war going before he died? Was he winning? I don't actually know if his war was already practically over, or if Bloodraven actually saved the day.
red grass filed battle, deamon blackfyre last battle took place is right out of kingslanding ground, so rationally if not stopped he was about to take kingslanding on siege. i doubt no body try to stophim before that and knowing that before he was slaying by bloodraven arrow the blacks were crusching the center and right flank, bloodraven disonest but essential move save the reds targaryens
@@carlogiurizzato2441 omg its so confusing when you call Daemon Blackfyres Faction the Black cause Dance of the Dragons also had a Daemon in a faction called Blacks
I think aegon IV is the the most overhated king. My headcannon is that the targaryans of Viserys II age were in a cold civil war to bring back dragons. They knew they no longer had the proper dragon blood to hatch dragon eggs and the magic had faded. Baylons line could of produced the proper genetics which is why he never fucked and did the maiden vault. Aegon IV knew he didnt have the proper genetics because his mother was from Lysene. The reason he snuck into the maiden vault was to match his incomplete dragon blood with Daenas. Daemons line could have hatched eggs but A IV didnt know that and when they didnt hatch with his birth and he was forbidden from marrying Daena, he began seducing women from first men houses which likely had some worg blood in hopes that the targ worg combination could breed dragon riders. His bastards were likely more alligned with the pro return of dragons which is why he legitimized them. Daemon Blackfyre should have been king. His line would of hatched dragons a century before Danny and the rebellion and Westeros wouldnt be under such threat from the others
I get a different interpretation of Daemon not building a castle on the Blackwater rush. I don't think he would've built the castle in preparation for war because 1) it would've been too close to Kings Landing and 2) because I doubt he could've built any serious stronghold in a reasonable amount of time. What defenses could he have hoped for? Instead I see his not building his own castle as a declaration that he had a grander seat in mind....
A fast build on a Medieval castle was 20-30 years once the Romanesque architecture Era started. Some of the Gothic style cathedrals and castles took 100 years or more, and some remain unfinished to this day. Daemon wouldve had to move monumental amounts of material and hire pyramid building amounts of workers to do it.
I think Maegor gets an unfair rep. Like okay he did do terrible things but if it wasn't for his decisiveness and strength in putting down the faith and other rebellions the House may have died
Well if Maegor saved his house by crushing the faith then he in the same vein almost destroyed his house by waging war on his family and killing some of it
when daemon named himsself king of the stepstones he wore a crown he later attempted to lay at daerons feet when he attempted to submit to his half brother ; just dont know if it was a targaryen crown or one of daemons own making.
Medieval inheritance was a lot more about how many troops would fight for you than what any rules/laws said should happen
No one tell Stannis
@@JoeMagician Stannis has enough trouble with westerosi history, not sure he could handle real world history...
@@JoeMagician as intelligent, well read, and as well versed in politics (or rather, his version of them....) you'd think Stannis would have had a clue, especially now after the entire Renly saga answer how many of his Stormlands soldiers folded at the sight of Renlys Ghost.
But he didnt, but he had the better idea by going North anyway.
@@JoeMagician Poor guy.
Tell that to the Hapsburgs who married/inherited their way to being the most powerful royal house.
A couple notes all these years later-
1) I believe Daeron gave Dark Sister to Bloodraven, not Aegon IV. One might see this as Daeron both rewarding a loyal and capable ally and reestablishing that it’s normal to gift a Targaryen sword to a bastard, and it doesn’t mean anything special for inheritance.
2) I think Daeron isn’t legitimate and Bloodraven knew it, or knows it as the three eyed crow. This explains why the “brother he loved, brother he hated” only includes two brothers. This would leave Daemon and Bittersteel as the two most important brothers in his life, and Daeron would be a cousin. Otherwise, his omission of Daeron from this list does seem a little weird.
To me it often seems like some Targaryen's get almost magical charisma and magnetism.
Rhaegar, Jon Snow and Daemon BF come to mind. The loyalties/devotion/rivalries they inspire seem to far exceed their deeds and achievements.
Danny also inspires some intense loyalty but she is a dragon owning liberator of slaves so that seems a bit more proportional.
I would also as Daeron the young dragon to that list and possibly Daemon Targaryen the rogue prince
I don’t know if that can be entirely attributed to magic. After all Bobby B and 16 year old Robb Stark also won allies through a combination of victories and charisma
@@starwarsnerd100 sure. Although I would argue:
-Rob Stark relied heavily on the his vasal lords loyalty to his father until he earned his own loyalty and reputation. Even then that loyalty was challenged and tested.
-Bobby B had his own brand of charisma and again it seemed earned. Even then a few dashes of Targ blood were in his veins.
Conquest wasn’t necessarily just about Daeron’s vanity. It totally could be and it wouldn’t be out of place for the character we are presented, but that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a practical reason for Daeron to conquer Dorne. That being the death of the dragons.
I find it more than a little shocking that the death of the dragons didn’t lead to the immediate regression of Targ-rule across every corner of the realm…if not via direct rebellions then at least through powerful Lords restarting the kind of wars amongst each other, that the dragons had kept them from since Aegon’s conquest. In our world many dynasties collapsed because bad harvests & plagues made their subordinates & subjects believe that they had lost heaven's/god’s favor…nevermind if they had had living-nukes that were both the symbols & backbones of your conquest, which suddenly went extinct.
Without the source of his family’s power, the kingship became much more vulnerable & beholden to the desires of the nobility…and for Westerosi lords who were not allowed to pillage one another, pillaging Dorne was the only other option for the war & plunder that they needed to maintain the support of their own men & subordinate lords.
So some of the decision to conquer dorne can be explained by having to redirect his subordinates need for plunder, now that he no longer had the power to just quash each & every uprising from dragon back...and some of it can be explained by needing to show that the dynasty was still strong and capable of new accomplishments even without the dragons. Kinda how the war of the ninepenny kings brought the realm together, only for Aerys to steer it off of a cliff.
I have a very pro-dornish perspective, so I don’t exactly have sympathy for those imperialistic impulses, but they’re more a symptom of the system than the results of any individual’s personal shortcomings.
In my head-canon, Daemon is pretty much Targ-Brandon Stark (Ned’s brother).
For the ‘rhythm
Sir Eustace won me over to Daemons cause but I don’t feel the same way about Daemons sons
Great to have you back, my lunches have not been the same.
Well, there is a more solid reason why Blackfyre is the sword of kings, and that is Dark Sister. The Targs always had two valyrian steel swords, Blackfyre and Dark Sister. Blackfyre was almost always held by the ruling lord, which of course later became king. Whereas Dark Sister became the sword of the warrior or enforcer, as Viserys I held Blackfyre and Daemon the Rogue Prince held Dark Sister. Since those two contrast in their wielder, Blackfyre looks to become the sword for kings.
Excellent deep dive into Daemon Blackfyre. Look forward to the continuation of this topic.
I have only the one problem: why do people presume Daemon, if innocent of plotting rebellion, had only the one option when people came to arrest him? Most people wrongly accused will want a trial to prove their innocence. Some might take refuge in another country and claim their innocence from a distance. Not everyone thinks rebellion... well, you have already established thinking is not Daemon’s best skill.
Good to see more Blackfyre streams. The last one I saw was by history of Westeros. Merry Christmas
Targaryen moment-king starts a war by cheating on his sister with his cousin. Of all of Aegon’s bastards daemon’s mother being a royal was probably a big reason he was elevated
If Aegon IV turns out to actually be Rhaegar's son then he has the stronger claim than Dany. But tbh if doesn't matter about claims its who ever has the power to take the Throne. You can just fudge up legitimacy once it's been taken
Oh shit Baelor the blessed having dragon dreams is a great theory
It took me a couple of days to finish this one lol so I'm late in saying that it's great to have you back brother hope you had a nice break. And as always cheers for the content.
A bit late to the party but I believe the whole "kinslaying" thing with Bloodraven against Daemon is more-so people just not liking Bloodraven, even though he basically ended a terrible and bloody war. We have something almost identical with Jaime killing Aerys, which probably saved the entire city (though iirc not many knew about the wildfire). And yes like you mentioned him using a (magical?) arrow instead of facing him in "honorable" combat is a contributing factor, especially when you consider how engrossed people were with Daemons fights during the final battle, and the honor he showed to his enemies. Which makes me wonder, how was Daemons war going before he died? Was he winning? I don't actually know if his war was already practically over, or if Bloodraven actually saved the day.
red grass filed battle, deamon blackfyre last battle took place is right out of kingslanding ground, so rationally if not stopped he was about to take kingslanding on siege. i doubt no body try to stophim before that and knowing that before he was slaying by bloodraven arrow the blacks were crusching the center and right flank, bloodraven disonest but essential move save the reds targaryens
@@carlogiurizzato2441 omg its so confusing when you call Daemon Blackfyres Faction the Black cause Dance of the Dragons also had a Daemon in a faction called Blacks
@@kradonkragon2151 it not me it martin who call them blacks vs reds
Is it mentioned whether Bittersteel had children? Weird that he wouldn't as he had married Damien's young daughter
Possibly lineage of FAegon? Could strengthen the tie to the Golden Company
Oh, shoot! I missed this! Well, welcome back! You were missed. I hope that the break was rejuvenating.
I will try to watch it later today. :)
ur not a dum-dum matt! ur an asoiaf-fle legend. so glad you are back :D
can someone tell me what ASWOIAF (ass-waffle) stands for. I've heard you mention it many times but have never caught what the joke is.
If you try to make asoiaf into a word or phrase the closest you can get is ass waf hence ass waffle 🍑 🧇
@@korinnastricke558 Correct, if you try to say it phoentically
I think aegon IV is the the most overhated king. My headcannon is that the targaryans of Viserys II age were in a cold civil war to bring back dragons. They knew they no longer had the proper dragon blood to hatch dragon eggs and the magic had faded. Baylons line could of produced the proper genetics which is why he never fucked and did the maiden vault. Aegon IV knew he didnt have the proper genetics because his mother was from Lysene. The reason he snuck into the maiden vault was to match his incomplete dragon blood with Daenas. Daemons line could have hatched eggs but A IV didnt know that and when they didnt hatch with his birth and he was forbidden from marrying Daena, he began seducing women from first men houses which likely had some worg blood in hopes that the targ worg combination could breed dragon riders. His bastards were likely more alligned with the pro return of dragons which is why he legitimized them. Daemon Blackfyre should have been king. His line would of hatched dragons a century before Danny and the rebellion and Westeros wouldnt be under such threat from the others
Daemons in the ASOIAF series just can't be happy with what they have.
I get a different interpretation of Daemon not building a castle on the Blackwater rush. I don't think he would've built the castle in preparation for war because 1) it would've been too close to Kings Landing and 2) because I doubt he could've built any serious stronghold in a reasonable amount of time. What defenses could he have hoped for?
Instead I see his not building his own castle as a declaration that he had a grander seat in mind....
A fast build on a Medieval castle was 20-30 years once the Romanesque architecture Era started. Some of the Gothic style cathedrals and castles took 100 years or more, and some remain unfinished to this day. Daemon wouldve had to move monumental amounts of material and hire pyramid building amounts of workers to do it.
That thumbnail art looks like Aegon the Unworthy is about to lop off Daemon's arms not dub him ;)
He would never to his fave
I think Maegor gets an unfair rep. Like okay he did do terrible things but if it wasn't for his decisiveness and strength in putting down the faith and other rebellions the House may have died
Well if Maegor saved his house by crushing the faith then he in the same vein almost destroyed his house by waging war on his family and killing some of it
@@kradonkragon2151 still top 3 kings
1:30:00 in and loving the stream!
Love love love talking heads shout out 🙂🙂🙂 yes I read synopsis 🤗
Things just sort of seemed to happen to Daemon, I felt inspired
Daeron is older and than Daemon
And he is back with his magical magicianess yey 😍
Fuck shouldn't have let this play, HOTD spoilers 😭😭😭😭😭
It should be two. Bloodraven and Maester Aemond
Lol @ the talking heads description
dragon egg < 3 daughters
If you ever sold asswaffle leggings again I would buy them in every color...just sayin’...
You can get them on my Threadless shop!
@@JoeMagician do you know how the sizes translate for males? I.e. which should I pick for a 32in waist?
there is a pretty intense 60 cycle hum here, did you have a fan on?
lol, that was funny
Hiya 🌲⚘👻
Daemon most likely had A BUNCH of Twins
Very well 🔥🐉🐲💥👸🐉🔥
when daemon named himsself king of the stepstones he wore a crown he later attempted to lay at daerons feet when he attempted to submit to his half brother ; just dont know if it was a targaryen crown or one of daemons own making.
You’re confusing Daemon Targaryen and Daemon blackfyre