Another not widely known scummy move by Innova: They've trademarked the word "disc golf" in Japan forcing all other companies and even the "Japan Professional DISC GOLF Association" to pay them annually or use some alternative language like "flying disc" instead... Basically strangling the growth of the sport in Japan because the JPDGA pays a big portion of its annual membership fees to Innova and making it expensive for anyone else to promote the sport as "disc golf" which is a way more straight forward naming of the game than "flying disc"... very frustrating to hear as a player in Japan...
@@JustDisc you realize we live in a corporate dictatorship right? Corporations are the ones that make the laws in the first place. why would they ever create or enforce laws that restrict themselves from hoarding more wealth? They wouldn't and don't. Think I'm exaggerating? Name me a member of house or congress that isn't currently or hasn't been in executive management or on the board of a major corporation. Go ahead, I'll wait.
@@xAllCatsAreBeautiful1312x You realize that Japan is a different country than the United States right?! Trademarking something so vague as "Disc Golf" wouldn't happen in the US anymore, the only example I know of that is NOW similar to this is LucasArts, or some part of that company(now owned by Disney), owned the rights to the word "Droid"! It happened because back when Lucas applied for it it wasn't a commonly used term! I have NO idea if Disney now owns the trademark, or copyright, or whatever(I'm a layman and I don't know the difference between the two)!
...Nobody is confused... Innova owns the mold, Innova MADE the mold, it's their mold and they're continuing to produce it, the new discmania molds are new, different molds and Innova is only doing a good thing by making the disc for fans of that mold. there is no "confusion in the marketplace"
agreed disc mania had this coming... they just up and left innova one day with no notice just how a punk kid would do at a job.... disc golf community doesn't lose sleep about this like this guy
@@ericrobbins6953 TL;DR I call this "tribalism" and I think it's STUPID and is ruining things! Yeah, what I have been referring to as "tribalism", though using it more when referring to professional wrestling and tabletop roleplaying games like D&D! There are other things out there for both of those hobbies but MANY, MANY people have this attachment to things that the found first so anything else is just stupid to them, which only makes THEM stupid! Other Professional wrestling shows are good not JUST WWE ones, other tabletop roleplaying games are AMAZING, not just D&D, but again, in BOTH of these hobbies it is just as stupid as it is here, in disc golf now! Unless your a pro disc golfer with a contract use whatever disc you can get, stop being "tribal" idiots!
I would think that the mold originally belonged to Innova. I don't find it that confusing. The MD3 manufactured by Innova won't be available anymore so it is nice to have an option.
I LOVE that this happened. It really helped stomp out some of the crazy prices that scalpers were trying to sell the older Innova discs for. I can now comfortably fill my bag with the molds that I love in even more plastic types. No more losing a disc and having to hunt a new one down on reddit and pay $30+. Scalpers can continue to be shitty and leach off of the sport, and I can continue to simply play and enjoy it with the equipment that I love.
Innova didn’t have the time to make the discs for Discmania, during the pandemic….but they can make them for themselves, when they want to. Innova was spitting out frisbees for themselves to maximize profits, when there was a disc shortage. You presented half the story, ignoring the reason why DiscMania had to set up their own factory. Why Discmania needed help from Lat64 to produce discs…..100% Innova & now they’re acting like salty old men.
Question Chris - Have you ever looked into the Innova Star Classic Compass logo and Storm Island Clothing’s compass label? They seem incredibly close in design. Just was curious if Innova had any leverage there.
Innova owns the original molds and will continue to make it for us who love the original molds. Discmania owns the names of their discs and now currently make completely different molds using their owned naming scheme. Innova’s Mid Disc 3 is the real MD3 that everybody loves, but they can not call it an MD3. Discmania’s current MD3 is a completely different new mold that is trying to replicate the original MD3 mold that innova owns.
I think your quite off with these opinions. They were in bed together forever. It's understandable to split when production needs are met. There's no additional marketplace confusion than any other manufacturers producing similar molds as other companies of the same popular molds. It's It's matter of your own preferences
@@Iantwi_dg Yeah, I went to see if there was a PD coming out to find it already was. Out of stock, I think, though. I have an original X-out PD that I got in my mystery box recently - never thrown. My noodle arm is working up slowly to it.
@@man0utoftime right there with you 🤣 we have a couple of phantom swords and they’re great discs but definitely a little overstable for a couple of our arms lol one day though
Innova created the molds and they still own them. They are under no obligation to play nice with Discmania, which is now a competitor company rather than Innova's European distributor as they were in the past. The new discs Discmania is producing in Sweden are actually the knock-offs since they are not the original molds, which are owned by Innova. They just have the same names as the original Discmania discs because Discmania owns the names, but nothing more. If Discmania wants to compete with the big boys, they need to do it through good manufacturing and marketing. Having their fans whine about this all over the Internet, even if it's not being encouraged by them, isn't really a good look. Personally, I always liked the Discmania discs that Innova manufactured. I won't be buying any of their new ones, though, since I prefer to buy American whenever possible. Fortunately, between Innova, Discraft, MVP, and others, I have plenty of great options.
And jackasses like you pretending Innova ISN'T doing something childish and stupid doesn't help THEM, or ANY part of disc golf for that matter! Competition can only go so far before it becomes detrimental to EVERYTHING involved in a sport, or any hobby really! Outside observers that see this before anything else are just going to see two companies measuring phallic objects, NOT a good look for the sport as a whole!
@@JacksonOwex Ah, Internet bravery. Well, I guess getting reported isn't as bad of a consequence as what would happen in the real world to people who go around saying things like this to others.
By the way, Discmania bought the molds that innova is now having to tweak. Otherwise they wouldn't have to change the name to something pathetically similar. And also, you puss, reporting someone for expressing an opinion is the epitome of douchyness. I guess crying to the censors makes you feel good though. By your example, if people went around expressing themselves, you'd just call the popo.
I think what innova is doing is ok. They own the molds. I agree an agreement at the separation would limit customer confusion. I think if "Owning the disc names", like Discmania is reported to, means trademark, they might have a strong case against innova naming conventions. I would imagine there was some negotiation that probably involved way more money than Discmania would like and they just clean cut. The only confusion I have as a customer is how people would pay $50 for an fd when they can get the Hawkeye :D
It's hard to make a judgment without knowing details of the contract that previously defined their relationship. You assume that they did not have an adequate contact, but perhaps they did. Perhaps it said that any disc being produced for Discmania would not be produced for any other brand. Now that the relationship is over, Innova is not producing them for Discmania and hence may be free to do what they want. Whether or not it is ethical is a different matter from legality. What is clear is that Innova owns the molds, because Discmania was not able to go and produce the exact same shape discs. They had to recreate something very similar. So actually you could view it as Discmania is now making knock offs of Innova's molds. With respect to branding, that does not seem to be an issue. I fail to see how Phantom Sword, Dark Rebel, and Metal Warrior are anything more than a jab at the sword and shield design of the Discmania logo. I don't think there's any confusion. Two more thoughts: first, Dave Dunipace designed all of Discmania's original line. Say what you will about how you think he runs the company, the man is a genius when it comes to discs. Second, if Discmania had gotten their act together quicker I don't think Innova would have decided to do what they're doing. That's pure speculation. And I realize Discmania has had extreme hurdles in doing this the past year.
Great video. I have always wondered about the law being applied to disc golf. I use other channels' footage sometimes and often wonder the implementations of that. Will there be any backlash? My thought is that other, bigger channels are doing it too, so they probably won't come after me first. What are your thoughts?
Was a patent pending all you need to do is change at least 10% of whatever it is and it doesn't fall under that patent anymore. I don't know about copyright or trademark. But if you trademark a certain logo they could just say hey it's not the same thing it's not the same logo
Hahah it's not a knock off it is the disc. Innova designed and manufactured the mold, DM Only owned the naming writes. Innova does this with all of the brands they manufacture for. DM knew this going in and when they left they don't get the molds. Those belong to Innova and they can do what they want with them. Is it a bit of a cheap shot? maybe.
There are so so so many disc manufacturers out there. A lot of the disc are similar. I think people like a brand and move in that direction. Very true, Their agreement should have been rock solid in the beginning.
I mean a lot of there players love and use these molds so it definitely helps them. And players like me that prefer these molds in the original plastics also benefit because I can still purchase exactly what I want. The way they did this was extremely childish tho, they really didn't need to have the naming like they did, but I am happy that they have these molds still avaliable.
Innova made the molds. Innova got the resources. Innova made the discs. Innova distributed the discs. Innova owns the discs. Discmania just "rented" the molds. Innova has all the rights to do this BUT their timing is a jerk move.
Innova did it for everyone who loves original Discmania discs. Discmania’s néw discs are completely different molds that need to establish their own following.
So for those that think innova is putting out the discs from old molds is totally wrong. Discmania bought those molds from innova, and now innova has to change them slightly and rename them to something disgustingly similar. Innova is pretty much scum. They vomited out discs for themselves duiring the pandemic while demand was through the roof, and dribbled out discmania discs while we the fans were screaming for them. If you want Discmania discs, don't expect the same quality or mold from innova.
An interesting topic. Of course we don't know of potentially binding contractural terms between the two companies. But we do know that the MD3 originally was molded, stamped, and manufactured by Innova while being stamped on the flight plate and marketed by Discmania. At that point who owns what? It would seem that Discmania owns the name MD3 and Innova owns the original mold. Now Discmania has reverse engineered the original Innova mold and is selling a "new original" MD3. Without even getting into a Risk of Consumer Confusion analysis it's fair to ask who could be confused and the intent of the consumer in choosing one of the two brands. What if someone buying a "new original" thinking they are buying the original Innova molded MD3? Or if they are buying the new Metal Warrior thinking they are buying the "new original" MD3 manufactured by Discmania? Given the varying sophistication of disc golf consumers it's fair to say that both are possible and that either company could have a claim. And how is the Trademark office going to take a disc registration with the PDGA? Crazy topic.
INNOVA are going to do this with EVERY Discmania Originals molds. I think it is underhanded, and now will have to ponder whether or not too buy the old molds.
Thank you for taking to time to break this down, I was very curious to see what actions either company could take if any. It’s my understanding that despite being their own brand, discmania outsourced the production of discs to innova. Not sure how much leverage discmania has in this situation because I don’t think discmania ever expected to split from Innova in the beginning.
Pretty sure that innova has the patents behind all of the original molds as well so there's not much discmania can do. That's why discmania is having to change each of the molds they are releasing under there own production.
@@ChrisClark5000 they are different, but that would apparently have been necessary anyway, as the old molds couldn't be used in Discmania's brand new manufacturing line
Discmania never designed a disc before the Evolution line. Everything was designed and manufactured by Innova, Discmania only came up with a name and a stamp design. I did expect this because Discmania would have to copy the molds from Innova to make the same discs. And everyone still wants those old Discmania molds so Innova would be stupid not to produce them.
Innova made the molds. Innova made the discs. They got the resources, they handled a lot of the distribution. Innova owns the discs. Discmania just "rented" the molds. Innova has every right to produce these discs and it is nothing but a good thing to us consumers and Innova who's plastic is what we are used to in these molds. It's the timing of these releases that's the d**k move here. On the other hand I feel like Discmania should just leave these molds behind and focus on new, BETTER stuff. Their OWN stuff.
@@Cubedogthebeast Jussi Meresmaa has said it multiple times that he knows nothing about designing disc molds. They did the same thing with the Evolution line where the designer of the discs is the same as with Latitude 64 (Tomas Ekström) and I'm pretty sure he also designs Discmanias own discs nowadays.
@@Cubedogthebeast Technically they were all Innova molds. What the manufacturers and distributors send to the PDGA for certification are sample discs produced from the molds for the PDGA to physically inspect and test, and possibly certify. Just to drive home how crazy all this is. 😂
Discmania needs to stand on their own two feet. Innova allowed Discmania to gain traction and notoriety within the sport with their partnership. The best molds of Discmania have been the P2, MD3, FD, FD3, PD and PD2. Now that they have split, you see Innova molds such as the Firefly coming out (Rebranded P2) Discmania needs to get to the point where they can produce their own discs and partnering with Lat 64 could produce similar problems for them in the future. I love Discmania but their production is a joke. Their discs sell out quickly (which is great) and restock can take months. Their pros were throwing the DD3 for almost a year before customers could and you could only get one in a mystery box once they did come out. Not the best business strategy. Discmania almost purposely produces a low quantity of discs to build the hype. The DD3 is a destroyer copy… it’s not reinventing the wheel…. Like cmon. Discrafts production, marketing, team members and overall presence in the sport over the last few years is something Innova, Discmania and other companies should take note of. They literally rebranded their entire image in a few short years. With that said, I do believe Innova is getting stagnant with their production and marketing and it might be time for some new blood in the company to shake things up. Players like Paul and Ricky decided to go elsewhere because the other companies are making bigger moves. Love Innova, love Discmania hope they both have continued success
It’s kinda like everyone knows a Hyzerbomb Mortar is just a beadless Gator. Discmania wouldn’t exist without Innova. Innova is responsible for helping several DG companies even exist. Millennium being another.
I think that Innova is trying to tell Discmania something. It seems to me like they are mocking discmanias success and saying that they are just like Innova. If anything, I do believe this was to make discmania mad because this would after all, effect the sales of DM. But I don't think that Innova has any bad blood with DM because jussi made Innova a lot of $. It makes sense to me that Innova would attempt to make up for lost profit. Edit: I have been throwing discmania since I started playing disc golf in 2017, I have been buying the new DM plastic and I love it. But I recently purchased a dark rebel because I want an s line fd for the understablity.
Discmania didn’t protect their intellectual property and assets. Innova capitalized on it. No confusion. You either like Star? plastic or you like Discmania’s new plastic and support Eagle. It’s very simple and it’s actually humorous
You can blame the PDGA for not allowing any new patentable disc technology into the sport. If it doesn’t adhere to what they currently think of as a disc it won’t get approved. Ask Quest Discs about the topic.
they can and do patent the plastic, but rotational flight and the aerodynamics of discs have to be changed in a non-obvious way to earn a patent. and there are rules that restrict how much tinkering you can do with the disc concept making it almost completely unpatentable. This is a good thing, it is disc golf, not vortex tube golf or some other shape. Just like you cant chip with a square ball in golf, even if it wont roll off the green as much.
This means just so little discmania is gonna be just fine people will still buy their shit because it says discmania and thats what Simon and Eagle throw and you can call it a knock off but they made the original mold so if anything discmanias new discs are the knock offs last thing all molds are copied all the time and innova usually makes them first so if anyone has the right to complain about other companies stealing their molds its innova
I am not confused because I am not looking at buying any of Discmania’s discs. I have been an Innova customer since 1985 and I see no reason to change. I have several reasons for this brand loyalty and I have no qualms about Discmania as a whole so whatever their deal was with Innova and whatever new discs Discmania is coming out with holds no interest to me. For that matter the new competitive Metal Warrior disc from Innova is inconsequential to me unless it has flight numbers that match my game. But let’s look at this situation, as my mother used to say, “what does this have to do with the price of ice in Alaska?”. Assuming there is nothing in their agreement that prohibited such a move on Innova’s part then it is shame on Discmania, this sort of thing happens a lot in corporate America (house brands for instance, where even the packaging looks the same). I think this deserves less drama than it is being given, as well as a nifty advertising plug for your law firm.
I think Disc Mania's Iron Samurai design looks like a very close copy of Innova's Ricky Wysocki 2X World Champion disc, so close that I would call that ripping off Innova on their stamp. Not sure if anyone else sees it so maybe just me.
Innova made it possible for dismania to exist running there disc until they got popular enough to break out, its there new stamp and there plastic and mold and ain't nothing you can do about it, quit crying sounds like youre worried it's not a knock off innova disc are far better anyway If you didnt have big names like eagle and Simon your disc would fall flat complete waiste of time and innova should sue you for making this video and slandering there brand, one question how is it confusion, one says innova disc other says dismania, maybe if your customers cant read it's a problem
i think it is a bad sign for us the players if the disc makers are going to fight over intellectual property. one of the driving forces behind disc golf is the availability to everyone to approach and play. if you are going start putzing around in these types of arenas, there is just no way people are going to be able to throw your super strategized price protected discs across water. In ball golf, you dont throw your club over the water, just a way cheaper ball, in disc golf you are throwing your club, so it cant cost a damn fortune because your legal strategies. Quit it!
@@MrLostform I’m just saying that good balls can be like $8 each, and I’ll tell ya, I’ve lost WAY more golf balls than discs, and I’ve been playing disc for longer than golf
@@WillEnj0y not sure what your getting at, you can still hit your driver the next hole after driving into the water, that isnt the case in disc golf, you no longer have a driver. and throwing $50-$100 into the lake for the discs the pros are driving now before IP battles becomes 2-3 hundred after IP battles and is unsustainable
if you are saying golf costs more to play, of course, but if you remove the greens fees, the gap has closed susbtantially, and the main reason is because you keep a set of clubs no matter how you are playing in a round of ball golf, but might have to replace your hole bag after a particularly bad round of disc golf, because the club is the projectile.
Sounds like Innova is butthurt so they are retaliating the only way they know how! I also know that a LOT of people will whine and complain about Discmania! I don't care one way or another, I use what I can find and what I can afford, only way I will ever care is if I someone manage to get a contract to play for one of the companies, which WON'T happen because I have little desire to play disc golf more as anything more than a recreational activity to have fun outside with a couple of my friends!
Another not widely known scummy move by Innova:
They've trademarked the word "disc golf" in Japan forcing all other companies and even the "Japan Professional DISC GOLF Association" to pay them annually or use some alternative language like "flying disc" instead... Basically strangling the growth of the sport in Japan because the JPDGA pays a big portion of its annual membership fees to Innova and making it expensive for anyone else to promote the sport as "disc golf" which is a way more straight forward naming of the game than "flying disc"...
very frustrating to hear as a player in Japan...
@hyzerponix I guess it's "smart" if you don't have a conscience and are a socipath.
Prove it or stop trolling!
Don't blame Innova, blame the law allowing this to happen
@@JustDisc you realize we live in a corporate dictatorship right? Corporations are the ones that make the laws in the first place. why would they ever create or enforce laws that restrict themselves from hoarding more wealth? They wouldn't and don't. Think I'm exaggerating? Name me a member of house or congress that isn't currently or hasn't been in executive management or on the board of a major corporation. Go ahead, I'll wait.
@@xAllCatsAreBeautiful1312x You realize that Japan is a different country than the United States right?!
Trademarking something so vague as "Disc Golf" wouldn't happen in the US anymore, the only example I know of that is NOW similar to this is LucasArts, or some part of that company(now owned by Disney), owned the rights to the word "Droid"! It happened because back when Lucas applied for it it wasn't a commonly used term! I have NO idea if Disney now owns the trademark, or copyright, or whatever(I'm a layman and I don't know the difference between the two)!
...Nobody is confused... Innova owns the mold, Innova MADE the mold, it's their mold and they're continuing to produce it, the new discmania molds are new, different molds and Innova is only doing a good thing by making the disc for fans of that mold. there is no "confusion in the marketplace"
Yes sir! Agreed
I third that.
There isnt confusion on who makes the disc, but their certainly be brand loyalty confusion and intellectual property confusion.
agreed disc mania had this coming... they just up and left innova one day with no notice just how a punk kid would do at a job.... disc golf community doesn't lose sleep about this like this guy
@@ericrobbins6953 TL;DR I call this "tribalism" and I think it's STUPID and is ruining things!
Yeah, what I have been referring to as "tribalism", though using it more when referring to professional wrestling and tabletop roleplaying games like D&D! There are other things out there for both of those hobbies but MANY, MANY people have this attachment to things that the found first so anything else is just stupid to them, which only makes THEM stupid! Other Professional wrestling shows are good not JUST WWE ones, other tabletop roleplaying games are AMAZING, not just D&D, but again, in BOTH of these hobbies it is just as stupid as it is here, in disc golf now! Unless your a pro disc golfer with a contract use whatever disc you can get, stop being "tribal" idiots!
Sounds like a solicitation to me. Do you think the public is confused over which SUV to buy since they all do the same things?
I would think that the mold originally belonged to Innova. I don't find it that confusing. The MD3 manufactured by Innova won't be available anymore so it is nice to have an option.
I LOVE that this happened. It really helped stomp out some of the crazy prices that scalpers were trying to sell the older Innova discs for. I can now comfortably fill my bag with the molds that I love in even more plastic types. No more losing a disc and having to hunt a new one down on reddit and pay $30+.
Scalpers can continue to be shitty and leach off of the sport, and I can continue to simply play and enjoy it with the equipment that I love.
You can't have scalpers without idiots that overpay for plastic.
-A person that flipped Sexton Firebirds for $150 a piece.
Innova didn’t have the time to make the discs for Discmania, during the pandemic….but they can make them for themselves, when they want to. Innova was spitting out frisbees for themselves to maximize profits, when there was a disc shortage.
You presented half the story, ignoring the reason why DiscMania had to set up their own factory. Why Discmania needed help from Lat64 to produce discs…..100% Innova & now they’re acting like salty old men.
Question Chris - Have you ever looked into the Innova Star Classic Compass logo and Storm Island Clothing’s compass label? They seem incredibly close in design. Just was curious if Innova had any leverage there.
Unlikely. They are different enough. You can't trademark using a compass rose.
Innova owns the original molds and will continue to make it for us who love the original molds.
Discmania owns the names of their discs and now currently make completely different molds using their owned naming scheme.
Innova’s Mid Disc 3 is the real MD3 that everybody loves, but they can not call it an MD3.
Discmania’s current MD3 is a completely different new mold that is trying to replicate the original MD3 mold that innova owns.
You got that backwards.
I think your quite off with these opinions. They were in bed together forever. It's understandable to split when production needs are met. There's no additional marketplace confusion than any other manufacturers producing similar molds as other companies of the same popular molds. It's It's matter of your own preferences
Just found this channel. Interesting angle. I'm amused by Innova's trolling. "Metal Warrior" and the "Fairway Disc, Dark Rebel". Savage.
There’s also a “power disc” called the “phantom sword” 🤣 trolling at its finest by innova
@@Iantwi_dg Yeah, I went to see if there was a PD coming out to find it already was. Out of stock, I think, though. I have an original X-out PD that I got in my mystery box recently - never thrown. My noodle arm is working up slowly to it.
@@man0utoftime right there with you 🤣 we have a couple of phantom swords and they’re great discs but definitely a little overstable for a couple of our arms lol one day though
Innova created the molds and they still own them. They are under no obligation to play nice with Discmania, which is now a competitor company rather than Innova's European distributor as they were in the past. The new discs Discmania is producing in Sweden are actually the knock-offs since they are not the original molds, which are owned by Innova. They just have the same names as the original Discmania discs because Discmania owns the names, but nothing more. If Discmania wants to compete with the big boys, they need to do it through good manufacturing and marketing. Having their fans whine about this all over the Internet, even if it's not being encouraged by them, isn't really a good look. Personally, I always liked the Discmania discs that Innova manufactured. I won't be buying any of their new ones, though, since I prefer to buy American whenever possible. Fortunately, between Innova, Discraft, MVP, and others, I have plenty of great options.
And jackasses like you pretending Innova ISN'T doing something childish and stupid doesn't help THEM, or ANY part of disc golf for that matter! Competition can only go so far before it becomes detrimental to EVERYTHING involved in a sport, or any hobby really! Outside observers that see this before anything else are just going to see two companies measuring phallic objects, NOT a good look for the sport as a whole!
@@JacksonOwex Ah, Internet bravery. Well, I guess getting reported isn't as bad of a consequence as what would happen in the real world to people who go around saying things like this to others.
By the way, Discmania bought the molds that innova is now having to tweak. Otherwise they wouldn't have to change the name to something pathetically similar.
And also, you puss, reporting someone for expressing an opinion is the epitome of douchyness. I guess crying to the censors makes you feel good though. By your example, if people went around expressing themselves, you'd just call the popo.
@@JacksonOwexmannnnnn. Overreaction x1000.
Also you blaming Innova and not Discmania is 😂
I think what innova is doing is ok. They own the molds. I agree an agreement at the separation would limit customer confusion. I think if "Owning the disc names", like Discmania is reported to, means trademark, they might have a strong case against innova naming conventions. I would imagine there was some negotiation that probably involved way more money than Discmania would like and they just clean cut. The only confusion I have as a customer is how people would pay $50 for an fd when they can get the Hawkeye :D
It's hard to make a judgment without knowing details of the contract that previously defined their relationship. You assume that they did not have an adequate contact, but perhaps they did. Perhaps it said that any disc being produced for Discmania would not be produced for any other brand. Now that the relationship is over, Innova is not producing them for Discmania and hence may be free to do what they want. Whether or not it is ethical is a different matter from legality.
What is clear is that Innova owns the molds, because Discmania was not able to go and produce the exact same shape discs. They had to recreate something very similar. So actually you could view it as Discmania is now making knock offs of Innova's molds.
With respect to branding, that does not seem to be an issue. I fail to see how Phantom Sword, Dark Rebel, and Metal Warrior are anything more than a jab at the sword and shield design of the Discmania logo. I don't think there's any confusion.
Two more thoughts: first, Dave Dunipace designed all of Discmania's original line. Say what you will about how you think he runs the company, the man is a genius when it comes to discs. Second, if Discmania had gotten their act together quicker I don't think Innova would have decided to do what they're doing. That's pure speculation. And I realize Discmania has had extreme hurdles in doing this the past year.
Great video. I have always wondered about the law being applied to disc golf. I use other channels' footage sometimes and often wonder the implementations of that. Will there be any backlash? My thought is that other, bigger channels are doing it too, so they probably won't come after me first. What are your thoughts?
Innova is the Emperor Palpatine of disc golf!
Was a patent pending all you need to do is change at least 10% of whatever it is and it doesn't fall under that patent anymore. I don't know about copyright or trademark. But if you trademark a certain logo they could just say hey it's not the same thing it's not the same logo
Hahah it's not a knock off it is the disc. Innova designed and manufactured the mold, DM Only owned the naming writes. Innova does this with all of the brands they manufacture for. DM knew this going in and when they left they don't get the molds. Those belong to Innova and they can do what they want with them. Is it a bit of a cheap shot? maybe.
There are so so so many disc manufacturers out there. A lot of the disc are similar. I think people like a brand and move in that direction. Very true, Their agreement should have been rock solid in the beginning.
Innova did this to be jerks, there was no other reason for them to do this. They did not HAVE to do this, they CHOSE to do this.
I mean a lot of there players love and use these molds so it definitely helps them. And players like me that prefer these molds in the original plastics also benefit because I can still purchase exactly what I want. The way they did this was extremely childish tho, they really didn't need to have the naming like they did, but I am happy that they have these molds still avaliable.
Innova made the molds. Innova got the resources. Innova made the discs. Innova distributed the discs. Innova owns the discs. Discmania just "rented" the molds. Innova has all the rights to do this BUT their timing is a jerk move.
Innova did it for everyone who loves original Discmania discs.
Discmania’s néw discs are completely different molds that need to establish their own following.
So for those that think innova is putting out the discs from old molds is totally wrong. Discmania bought those molds from innova, and now innova has to change them slightly and rename them to something disgustingly similar. Innova is pretty much scum. They vomited out discs for themselves duiring the pandemic while demand was through the roof, and dribbled out discmania discs while we the fans were screaming for them. If you want Discmania discs, don't expect the same quality or mold from innova.
An interesting topic. Of course we don't know of potentially binding contractural terms between the two companies. But we do know that the MD3 originally was molded, stamped, and manufactured by Innova while being stamped on the flight plate and marketed by Discmania. At that point who owns what? It would seem that Discmania owns the name MD3 and Innova owns the original mold. Now Discmania has reverse engineered the original Innova mold and is selling a "new original" MD3. Without even getting into a Risk of Consumer Confusion analysis it's fair to ask who could be confused and the intent of the consumer in choosing one of the two brands. What if someone buying a "new original" thinking they are buying the original Innova molded MD3? Or if they are buying the new Metal Warrior thinking they are buying the "new original" MD3 manufactured by Discmania? Given the varying sophistication of disc golf consumers it's fair to say that both are possible and that either company could have a claim. And how is the Trademark office going to take a disc registration with the PDGA? Crazy topic.
INNOVA are going to do this with EVERY Discmania Originals molds. I think it is underhanded, and now will have to ponder whether or not too buy the old molds.
The naming convention is petty…
Innova is scumbags . Will never buy another innova disc again
Thank you for taking to time to break this down, I was very curious to see what actions either company could take if any. It’s my understanding that despite being their own brand, discmania outsourced the production of discs to innova. Not sure how much leverage discmania has in this situation because I don’t think discmania ever expected to split from
Innova in the beginning.
Pretty sure that innova has the patents behind all of the original molds as well so there's not much discmania can do. That's why discmania is having to change each of the molds they are releasing under there own production.
@@sono3003 is this true? The new P2s are a different mold than the mold that has been used in the past?
@@ChrisClark5000 yes, they are different.
@@ChrisClark5000 they are different, but that would apparently have been necessary anyway, as the old molds couldn't be used in Discmania's brand new manufacturing line
Discmania never designed a disc before the Evolution line. Everything was designed and manufactured by Innova, Discmania only came up with a name and a stamp design. I did expect this because Discmania would have to copy the molds from Innova to make the same discs. And everyone still wants those old Discmania molds so Innova would be stupid not to produce them.
Innova made the molds. Innova made the discs. They got the resources, they handled a lot of the distribution. Innova owns the discs. Discmania just "rented" the molds. Innova has every right to produce these discs and it is nothing but a good thing to us consumers and Innova who's plastic is what we are used to in these molds. It's the timing of these releases that's the d**k move here. On the other hand I feel like Discmania should just leave these molds behind and focus on new, BETTER stuff. Their OWN stuff.
Technically Discmania is actually the one producing "rip offs" here no matter how dumb that sounds
discmania designed the molds. innova produced them. they are discmanias molds. innova is just mad because they became so popular with collectors.
@@Cubedogthebeast Jussi Meresmaa has said it multiple times that he knows nothing about designing disc molds. They did the same thing with the Evolution line where the designer of the discs is the same as with Latitude 64 (Tomas Ekström) and I'm pretty sure he also designs Discmanias own discs nowadays.
@@Cubedogthebeast Technically they were all Innova molds. What the manufacturers and distributors send to the PDGA for certification are sample discs produced from the molds for the PDGA to physically inspect and test, and possibly certify. Just to drive home how crazy all this is. 😂
This is no different from the letter-number system that discmania and prodigy use -- confusingly similar, but different names.
Discmania needs to stand on their own two feet. Innova allowed Discmania to gain traction and notoriety within the sport with their partnership. The best molds of Discmania have been the P2, MD3, FD, FD3, PD and PD2.
Now that they have split, you see Innova molds such as the Firefly coming out (Rebranded P2) Discmania needs to get to the point where they can produce their own discs and partnering with Lat 64 could produce similar problems for them in the future.
I love Discmania but their production is a joke. Their discs sell out quickly (which is great) and restock can take months. Their pros were throwing the DD3 for almost a year before customers could and you could only get one in a mystery box once they did come out. Not the best business strategy. Discmania almost purposely produces a low quantity of discs to build the hype. The DD3 is a destroyer copy… it’s not reinventing the wheel…. Like cmon.
Discrafts production, marketing, team members and overall presence in the sport over the last few years is something Innova, Discmania and other companies should take note of. They literally rebranded their entire image in a few short years. With that said, I do believe Innova is getting stagnant with their production and marketing and it might be time for some new blood in the company to shake things up. Players like Paul and Ricky decided to go elsewhere because the other companies are making bigger moves.
Love Innova, love Discmania hope they both have continued success
It’s kinda like everyone knows a Hyzerbomb Mortar is just a beadless Gator. Discmania wouldn’t exist without Innova. Innova is responsible for helping several DG companies even exist. Millennium being another.
I think that Innova is trying to tell Discmania something. It seems to me like they are mocking discmanias success and saying that they are just like Innova. If anything, I do believe this was to make discmania mad because this would after all, effect the sales of DM. But I don't think that Innova has any bad blood with DM because jussi made Innova a lot of $. It makes sense to me that Innova would attempt to make up for lost profit.
Edit: I have been throwing discmania since I started playing disc golf in 2017, I have been buying the new DM plastic and I love it. But I recently purchased a dark rebel because I want an s line fd for the understablity.
Discmania didn’t protect their intellectual property and assets. Innova capitalized on it. No confusion. You either like Star? plastic or you like Discmania’s new plastic and support Eagle.
It’s very simple and it’s actually humorous
Innova playing DGPT. Everyone else playing B Tiers.
Technically, discmania fired at Innova first. Remember that commercial with the "Omega's" and "alpaca?"
You can blame the PDGA for not allowing any new patentable disc technology into the sport. If it doesn’t adhere to what they currently think of as a disc it won’t get approved. Ask Quest Discs about the topic.
they can and do patent the plastic, but rotational flight and the aerodynamics of discs have to be changed in a non-obvious way to earn a patent. and there are rules that restrict how much tinkering you can do with the disc concept making it almost completely unpatentable. This is a good thing, it is disc golf, not vortex tube golf or some other shape. Just like you cant chip with a square ball in golf, even if it wont roll off the green as much.
Please stop rocking while you talk!!!
I love it . Im not confused
Discmania was just European Innova to start off with. All old Innova molds just different names sold overseas.
quit trolling Discmania and make some gosh darn Halo Polecats, Innova. yeeesh.
Who?
This means just so little discmania is gonna be just fine people will still buy their shit because it says discmania and thats what Simon and Eagle throw and you can call it a knock off but they made the original mold so if anything discmanias new discs are the knock offs last thing all molds are copied all the time and innova usually makes them first so if anyone has the right to complain about other companies stealing their molds its innova
I am not confused because I am not looking at buying any of Discmania’s discs. I have been an Innova customer since 1985 and I see no reason to change. I have several reasons for this brand loyalty and I have no qualms about Discmania as a whole so whatever their deal was with Innova and whatever new discs Discmania is coming out with holds no interest to me. For that matter the new competitive Metal Warrior disc from Innova is inconsequential to me unless it has flight numbers that match my game. But let’s look at this situation, as my mother used to say, “what does this have to do with the price of ice in Alaska?”. Assuming there is nothing in their agreement that prohibited such a move on Innova’s part then it is shame on Discmania, this sort of thing happens a lot in corporate America (house brands for instance, where even the packaging looks the same). I think this deserves less drama than it is being given, as well as a nifty advertising plug for your law firm.
I think Disc Mania's Iron Samurai design looks like a very close copy of Innova's Ricky Wysocki 2X World Champion disc, so close that I would call that ripping off Innova on their stamp. Not sure if anyone else sees it so maybe just me.
disc mania had this coming...
if Ted Cruz had a soul
Innova made it possible for dismania to exist running there disc until they got popular enough to break out, its there new stamp and there plastic and mold and ain't nothing you can do about it, quit crying sounds like youre worried it's not a knock off innova disc are far better anyway If you didnt have big names like eagle and Simon your disc would fall flat complete waiste of time and innova should sue you for making this video and slandering there brand, one question how is it confusion, one says innova disc other says dismania, maybe if your customers cant read it's a problem
I’ll avoid these new discs from innova strictly because of this petty shit lol. I don’t throw many discmania, but I will now
ok
i think it is a bad sign for us the players if the disc makers are going to fight over intellectual property. one of the driving forces behind disc golf is the availability to everyone to approach and play. if you are going start putzing around in these types of arenas, there is just no way people are going to be able to throw your super strategized price protected discs across water.
In ball golf, you dont throw your club over the water, just a way cheaper ball, in disc golf you are throwing your club, so it cant cost a damn fortune because your legal strategies. Quit it!
I think you’d be surprised about how expensive most quality golf balls are
@@WillEnj0y compared to high quality clubs?
@@MrLostform I’m just saying that good balls can be like $8 each, and I’ll tell ya, I’ve lost WAY more golf balls than discs, and I’ve been playing disc for longer than golf
@@WillEnj0y not sure what your getting at, you can still hit your driver the next hole after driving into the water, that isnt the case in disc golf, you no longer have a driver. and throwing $50-$100 into the lake for the discs the pros are driving now before IP battles becomes 2-3 hundred after IP battles and is unsustainable
if you are saying golf costs more to play, of course, but if you remove the greens fees, the gap has closed susbtantially, and the main reason is because you keep a set of clubs no matter how you are playing in a round of ball golf, but might have to replace your hole bag after a particularly bad round of disc golf, because the club is the projectile.
Innova wins, as usual.
Sounds like Innova is butthurt so they are retaliating the only way they know how! I also know that a LOT of people will whine and complain about Discmania! I don't care one way or another, I use what I can find and what I can afford, only way I will ever care is if I someone manage to get a contract to play for one of the companies, which WON'T happen because I have little desire to play disc golf more as anything more than a recreational activity to have fun outside with a couple of my friends!
We all know Nathan Ryan is a man and Page Pierce is a lesbian. We all know
Common innova L
Innova over everything else...