Just a bit of a headcanon for me, but maybe his hammer being treated as a contact move with Zap Tap is because he isn't holding an actual hammer, it's just an extension of his body from his transformation magic. Also, just like Mario is full of spaghetti, Doopliss if full of spaghetti code
In addition to your headcanon, I think doopliss’s poorly executed attacks (and even his mastery of some attacks) is just doopliss not being able to copy memories or techniques and relies on imitating Mario’s movements
Honestly, I think Doopliss may have a weirder corruption aura that allows for free thought but allows for subtle impossible changes to those that would follow Doopliss so long as they follow Doopliss. The Shadow Sirens control him, so the Chapter 8 Shadow Sirens battle only has Doopliss behaving weirdly.
@@GermanCricket13 He likely could be since he gave up on the Shadow Sirens by then and joined one of Mario's other partners too. I could only imagine what he could say in optional content like Bonetail
The partners doing weird damage in the Chapter 4 fight is the definition of the Boss when you fight it vs the Boss when you unlock it as a character XD
Doopliss' Goombella having Multibonk even if she isn't Super-ranked reminds me of how Vivian has Fiery Jinx when you fight her during the first Shadow Sirens battle, before she ever has a chance to become Super rank.
Yeeeeah she should've just had a buffed shade fist instead if they wanted to make her difficult, instead of foreshadowing moves she shouldn't have yet Same with doopliss' goombella and her basic headbonk
The definition of “the boss when you encounter them vs the boss in your party” but at least Vivian gets to relearn her techniques. At least with Vivian, that can be handwaved as not wanting to do stuff related to Beldam (and Beldam would have her use powerful moves like Fiery Jinx) and that she thinks herself weak outside of Beldam’s watch, so she only uses Shadow Punch.
"What you doing, Vivian?! I'll never forgive you if we lose!" "S-sorry, sis!" That's the forced motivation that made her use fiery jinx the first time.
@@iantaakalla8180also maybe Vivian lost confidence in herself due to Beldam's constant insults and punishments, but after sticking around with Mario's crew and getting to Super Rank, she did just regain the confidence she lost, but she managed to master the move this time, making it even stronger than when she was with her sisters
The P badges not working on Vivian was almost certainly unintentional. I don't remember the details, but she's added to the fight without running the function that recalculates what badges should be equipped in battle based on your current inventory (I think maybe the btlevtcmd_SpawnUnit function just doesn't ever run that logic, and this is the only time a player character joins mid-fight?). This is kind of the inverse of the bug that causes partners' HP to go screwy when stolen from by a Badge Bandit (since the function to recalculate which badges should be equipped _is_ run then, and also pulls the partner's current and max HP from their last value on the field). Mowz's Love Slap _does_ have multiple hits (2-4 hits based on rank), only the last of which is actually a damage-dealing attack. The number of hits it does actually determines whether or not getting countered by Payback glitches out, as the direction she faces when attacking is different, and only one direction's script code has the bug. Your guess is as good as mine as to why they remembered the flag for diminishing damage on Ch.8 Goombella but not Ch.4; I'd say that it was probably more noticeable to take a ton of 3-damage hits than 2-damage ones, but you'd think Doopliss never using a hammer would be at least as noticeable (especially given you're not guaranteed to have Goombella out for the Ch.8 fight).
There are also some other non-P badges that don't work in that fight right? I remember you mentioning simplifier and unsimplifier. Also I heard doopliss only uses his jump in chapter 8 but actually has an unused double jump that deals 6 damage twice.
@@condoslime776 Correct; those aren't P badges, but don't work on Vivian for the same reason. And no, the unused Ch. 8 Doopliss Spin Jump does _8_ damage twice. (He also has unused hammer attacks that deal 6 and 8 damage.)
Love Slap having multiple non-damaging hits is also apparent from the fact that the crowd always boos during those hits, even if you do the Action Command perfectly. That's probably another oversight
I just had the most amazing Doopliss fight. I beat all the partners, then without me even realizing he had 1 hp left, a shy guy ran on stage and dropped a bucket on him for the win in slow motion. Incredible
Similar thing happened to me. Vivian had already set him on fire, and then right at the end of the fight the stage hazards froze Mario and Vivian solid. I was resigned to being stuck taking two or three attacks before I could finish him off...and then the fire ticked, and he apparently only had 1 HP left.
I think it’s because she joins you MIDFIGHT, and doesn’t technically become part of “The Party” until AFTER the fight, she’s not shown as a “Partner” and thus the badges don’t buff her.
4:09 It should be interesting to note that Doopliss' animation here is actually different than Vivian's Shade Fist animation. It's actually the attack Vivian uses during the first Shadow Sirens fight! Strange how he still doesn't use Firey Jinx when Vivian does in fact use that move during the first fight...
I think it makes perfect sense that Doopliss is an imperfect copy. His hammer makes contact because, well, Mario still has it. So his hammer would logically have to also be a copy, and by that technicality, a part of him.
Honestly all of his weirdness always just seemed intentional to me, like he couldn't quite figure out how the moves were supposed to work. The goombella multibonk is crazy though... maybe Doopliss is a better trainer than Mario. lmao
the remake added a new trick up their sleeve now; If you one or two turn them, they have a life shroom that they dont have if vivian is there; If you one turn them, vivian shows up turn two (a turn earlier) and if you two-turn them, they have extra dialogue when they activate their life shroom (if you one round them, they give the normal "oh you can hurt me now" dialogue).
@@diamondan5721 frustratingly i didn't get a clip of it as i was trying to see what would happen if you one rounded and reset without grabbing a clip. iirc, it was something along the lines of "you thought you could do that to the great mario" or something. somebody has probably uploaded it somewhere by now.
My best guess on the multihit ms mowz jank is that Doopliss's love slap attack was copied from an unfinished version of love slap in which it was a multihit move
Love Slap *is* a multi-hit move, though. The first hits don't do damage, but they're still part of the animation. They're coded as hits; because they don't do damage, the audience always boos them.
@graphitedrizzle it is actually incorrectly coded to be counted as a failed or non-contact hit though. Which is why it pisses off the crowd in the original ttyd, but in the remake this was fixed and the crowd doesnt do the booing on love slap.
You would think Doopliss' fights would be less janky than the duplighosts in paper mario 64, but I guess they were rusty or his infrequency by comparison made them miss some spot checks. But the worst part... no partner tattles this time! (besides Vivian)
There's a pair of placeholders for hostile Tattles, but the placeholder raises an issue: "That's Mario!" doesn't make sense when the whole idea is that Goombella *doesn't* know it's Mario. With that said, I would find it cute if Goombella could Tattle Vivian in Chapter 4, and also make it so her doing the Tattle would actually officially count for your Tattle Log (this is less a legitimate strategy and more making it so the Vivian Tattle doesn't appear in the trash can until *after* she's defected.)
@@phineas81707 That sounds like a neat way to make Goombella sound unsure of herself mid-battle. "That's...Mario? That's what it says here, but that doesn't make any sense. Could it be a typo?" Bonus points if Mario's health showed up as a health bar underneath him, too.
a weird amount of this makes sense actually. like, you don't have your body, so you don't have your badges. unless they were working previously. and when it's the ghost himself as the partners or mario, he doesn't know quite how to 100% accurately do their moves, as for when he's using the partners, um.. maybe he's just a really good coach?
The Shadow Queen does the same thing as Doopliss if you defeat her in her first form before she turns invincible. She comes back with more HP. I don't remember how much HP she gets though.
honestly one of my favourite characters so far. his whole schtick is so cool, the way he calls mario "slick", how he poorly tries to imitate mario's mannerisms to convince your partners, just the way he's written in general. even his cute ghost design. I just think he's neat.
I think the base damage of the spin jump in the japanese version of TTYD is actually 2, which would be why Doopliss' failed spin jump does 2 damage instead of 3
Honestly the Ms. Mowz shenanigans make me believe Ms. Mowz’s basic attack was supposed to be a lot better earlier in development, like Bow’s slap from Paper Mario 64. Would make sense if it was a balancing mismanagement, since Ms. Mowz just kinda sucks in the final release.
When Vivian joins the fight she actually occupies a 2nd partner slot that is why the partner badges do nothing. If you use a hack to recover your partners you can have 2 at once on the field. Not sure if that does break the game or not but yea, it's made in a strange fashion and only applies to doopliss #2 you should try and check if P-Badges work during the running section
Oh yeah There are codes to actually put partners in the second partner slot But I don't think they can put two out at once, the code/battle menu that swaps them out handles that I feel like she should've been in that slot until she really joins you, not the other way around lol
I always saw Doopliss and your partners doing poor damage as a balancing measure by the devs. I'd imagine the battle would be painful to get through if doopliss or any of your partners dealt more than 4 dmg each when they attacked.
That's why superguard exists... Also the Doopliss boss fight is among the least difficult in the game so even if Doopliss and partners dealt upgraded damage it would still be possible to beat.
@@kaikaikool1973yeah besides ONLY goombella is mandatory you can just attack doopliss and the other partners won't come out I would love it if the other partners would use their other attacks as if beating goombella makes it a harder versión of the fight As soon as koops appears he could use shell shield to defend doopliss then attack with either Shell toss or power shell and every 5 turns or so use shell shield Flurrie uses body slam and sometimes the kiss ( can't remember the name ) Finally yoshi using gulp and mini egg as well as the ground pound
I suspect that the fact Doopliss' copy of Vivian can't inflict Burn is because it's lifting the enemy data from the Chapter 2 Vivian fight and adjusting stats, but they forgot to have it inflict burn.
Okay, so I knew about the thing with P badges not working, probably because of the fact Vivian joins mid-battle. I also knew about the whole deal with Goombella's Multibonk being weird, and I knew about the thing with what happens if you do more damage than necessary in the Chp. 4 fight But the rest? Nada. Didn't even know about Yoshi's Ground Pound being weird. I really have to wonder if this is the result of them not being careful when putting this fight together, or the game possibly being rushed like other Gamecube titles, or maybe both? I dunno. Doopliss is a complicated boss. I'd imagine soooo many things would have to be taken into account when putting those two fights together because of the fact that you're basically fighting yourself/your party members. But like, now you've shown just how weird this fight is and it really makes me feel like they absolutely dropped the ball here. Still really cool though, thank you for this video lmao
I know specifically the partner badges not working is actually because Mario actually has two partner slots, and the second slot is only really used for this or a couple more cinematic bits that have other "partners" on screen with more script-heavy applications, like Frankley giving you tutorials. Vivian is probably assigned to that slot, because having a partner join mid fight is script-messy enough to fit there (and notably this ONLY applies to this fight, she's in the first slot like normal in the bit before this). Badges just don't touch the second slot, and if you mess around with the game a bit you can actually stuff partners in that slot freely, and consistently get the same result. I have nothing to base this on besides circumstance and gut instinct, but between the way Ms. Mowz' Love Slap consistently gets the "failed attack" penalty to audience response and SP gain, the fact this doesn't happen in the remake implying it was a mistake and not intentional, and the variable hits here makes me think Love Slap USED to be a multi hit, like Bow in PM64, but was changed to its current state late in development... so late that nobody went back and changed the basic way Doopliss' version worked, besides changing the damage values making it deal 0 damage on the first hits so it at least lines up.
I think the Partner oddities are old stats that weren't updated. Am I correct in assuming that the enemy partners are entirely separate from their regular versions? Most likely included in Doopliss himself? If so then any changes made to the partners during development would have to be replicated which could easily be forgotten especially if different people handled it. This could even answer why there were differences between the battles as they made at different points in development. As for Doopliss being injured by counter moves when shouldn't, could be intentional so the player can still harm him...or could also be a case of old stats. Either way pretty interesting stuff here.
I wonder if the Ms. Mowz slap that Doopliss copied is taking its script from an earlier version of the move? It couod be that they programmed him to use a version of the Slap, and then changed Ms. Mowz' version of it but not Doopliss.
There's actually a good explanation as to why Doopliss comes back with 10 HP before he turns into Mario. He just so happens to have a Life Mushroom as a life insurance incase he meets his untimely demise.
I'll never forget when I was a kid I'd skip dialogue very often to get into gameplay. Well I skipped the Vivian primer dialogue and for the life of me couldn't figure out how to find his name. I dropped the game for like 3 years before I picked it up again and actually read the text. That's when I facepalmed the hardest in my life.
I suspect the discrepancies are maybe a peek at earlier states of game balance during development. It makes sense that the second fight is closer to correct because it was presumably written and coded in later. Plus I suspect the second sirens fight as a whole might have been a late addition to pad out the game’s length.
The Shadow Sirens were probably intended to be in the Riddle Tower itself, rather than just lying around like a bunch of weirdos. Then again, the Riddle Tower itself has weird behaviour thanks to a possible late addition (the trash can doesn't know you can get Red Bones' Tattle from here).
For the 2+2 = Spin Jump. Maybe at some point, it was based off PM64, where a regular double jump used the Spin Jump if you had the Super Boots? & for the Electrfied vs Hammer.... Well, metal conducts electricity, right? Alternatively, what if, since he's a shapeshifter, the hammer is just part of his body? 1:43 Dang! 3:45 Strange. I guess Gale Force by an enemy would be too swingy. Can Yoshi in Chapter 4 do a Gulp against Mario's side? 4:09 It seems like Doopliss is doing a different hand motion than Vivian. Is that what it is? Was that what Vivian used in the Shadow Sirens battle? Neat video! Thanks for uploading! I'm interested to learn more about this!
Flurry is the one who has gale force, not vivian The timestamp goes to when he copies vivian Also he doesn't do shade fist, that's probably why it doesn't cause burn That's some weird clap attack the other shadow sirens had before
@@Knux5577 My bad. I mentioned it because it was at around the end of the caption mentioning copying partner's Special Attacks, like Multibonk & Power Shell; Gale Force would be next in that order. & yeah, I mentioned that Doopliss-Vivian's hand motions for attacking as Vivian are different than Vivian. Still, thanks for helping to clarify!
It is honestly pretty cool that the partners get stronger when you fight them, just as when you control them in battle. Makes the fight a bit of punishment for ranking up your partners too zealously.
legit the one thing I always found weird about Doopliss in the Shadow Sirens encounter is how he lost the ability to Spin-jump entirely, alongside losing the hammer- but losing the hammer probably makes sense to an extent since he didn't steal Mario's body like in chapter 4 but the fact he loses Spin-Jump instead of keeping it(he deff should've considering he could use it prior, even if it could've been because he stole Mario's body) or not getting access to Spring Jump, considering Mario has Ultra boots at that point, is deff one of the stranger things in that battle whenever he becomes Mario. I can only assume the reason he's significantly weaker when transforming into Mario in the Shadow Sirens fight could be because he needs to steal the body, but then that does not explain him being able to use Goombella's multi-bonk Doopliss deff one of the strangest Duplighost type-enemies, yet also the most fun to mess around with(in ch. 4 at least).
You forgot to mention the weirdest thing about Doopliss using Shade Fist: he doesn’t. For whatever reason when copying Vivian, he claps you instead, like her sisters. An animation you never see Vivian herself do. It’s probably why it doesn’t burn Mario and co.
You actually do see that animation. Vivian does use the clap attack like her sisters in the fight with the Shadow Sirens in Chapter 2. And then she joins you after that. The weirder thing is that Doopliss never uses Fiery Jinx, despite having full access to it presumably. Guess my mans never figured out elemental magic. XD
Actually curious, what happens if Doopliss uses Love Slap on you with P-Up D-Down equipped? Would the hits before the last one deal damage in that case, similarly to how fog appearing can hit you, dealing 0 damage, but actually can deal 1 with P-Up D-Down?
This does actually (maybe) confirm my theory on Love Slap, and specifically why it doesn't generate SP/gets "boos" from the crowd. Those first "hits" the move does aren't just animation, they are, in fact, "real" hits that just do 0 damage... which means tbe entire move gets the failed move penalty you get for doing no damage to an enemy.
I’m assuming the weird parts with his chapter 4 fight has to do with the fight being designed before they had the partner scaling decided but knew what partners would be able to do at max rank, so they designed the fight around that
The one where Doopliss still transforms as Mario and heals 10 HP if you kill him before he transforms into Mario is pretty neat. Nintendo considered the possibility that people would do that, and still made sure that Doopliss always transformed into Mario before the fight ended! Also, this video brought me a ton of nostalgia. I may buy the remake if I get enough money.
hey koop your videos inspired me to replay ttyd and i double super guarded hooktail on 1 hp and no life shroom and won the fight, didnt use the R badge either. thanks for the good vids
I wonder if Ms. Mowz still affected by the "P" badges in the 2nd fight of Doopliss. Yes it's a glitch and yes you're not suppose to have her before chapter 5, but with the Early Ms .Mowz Glitch is possible. And yes I know it can softlock the game, as it dosen't know how to deal with it if you have her instead of Vivian, but it's for science ! At least Doopliss know Ms. Mowz do piercing damage but yeah it's wierd to see a 3 hit attacks when you usually just one when you have her with you.
You can have Ms. Mowz before chapter 5, though, at least in the remake, since the trouble quest required to get her as a partner becomes available after the events of Chapter 4.
@@JZJ7777 I already know that, in fact it was the case for the original game. Ms. Mowz requirement didn't change between both games. It's just in the original game it exist a glitch you can get her earlier which require at least the super boots to get her. Funnily enough bringing Ms.Mowz or the Admiral (if you go for early Bobbery in chapter 5 instead) beating Doopliss with any of them, will create a 3 v 2 fight with 2 partner on your side and making the final fight against Doopliss super easy.
(I played the remake) when I first played the game and beat the boss, I also noticed that they had weird attacks which I never had since I didn’t realize the shines were there to upgrade them, I am stupid
1) I wonder if some of this jank will be fixed in the remake 2) I wonder if some of the partner related jank is from them expecting you to have upgraded them, and thus when you don't you see that apparently stuff is hard-coded and not actually copied 3) Ms Mowz Love Slap.. maybe was supposed to be multi-hit? Like how the Mini Yoshi gets more hits as he is ranked up and Doopliss is inconsistent with the action command thus varied amount of hits
Intentional or not, I feel like, lore-wise, it’s pretty interesting that Doopliss’s copied moves deviate from Mario and his Partners. It seems that his copy ability has limits OR he’s something of an amateur or un-master level in a world of duplighosts when it concerns duplicating. Seeing as how he can’t copy the elemental side of attacks, fails certain actions commands, and doesn’t even *completely* match Mario in appearance. On the flipside, though, some of the more beneficial add-ons to attacks like Ms. Mowz’s triple slap, Mario’s one-shot jump, and impeccable action commands on certain partners may he the fact that he has improved since last encounter and can even alter the abilities with his own improvements to further guarantee success and prevention of previous mistakes. I also find it quite interesting that he doesn’t even use his hammer the next encounter, it’s almost as if he realizes that because it’s not separate from him, superguarding and payback items are punishing. Plus, the hammer itself is quite slow, predictable, heavy and pretty easy to counter. I just find it quite hilarious that Mario’s partners were with the Fake Mario and never even questioned the differences in his actions or even the fact that *HE COULD TALK* Another funny thing is that that Doopliss, a unique enemy and his own boss is an amateur in certain parts of his copying ability and yet, regular duplighosts in Paper Mario 64 guarding the icy castle were impeccable in every sense of copying the partners, and it’s because of their *perfect* and near-overdone impressions of the partners that it becomes obvious who is who. Sorry for the long comment, just my thoughts on the matter.
Mario can talk. And the partners *do* question Doopliss acting differently. I think it's one of the most reasonable versions of magically impersonating someone I've seen in fiction. The partners notice, but they don't immediately say "This is clearly an impostor," either. They're getting annoyed with him, but they don't ditch him right away. It's realistic. (And regular duplighosts were often bad at impersonations. It's a running gag in Paper Mario.)
I really didnt knew he could also copy ur partners in chapter 8, I guess I never let him live enough to do that. But it surprises me that they programmed all 7 partners moves adapted to be in this in specific fight. That dedication and detail cant be seen in new games anymore.
You could test the badges only being checked at the beginning of the battle by having all your badges equipped and getting one stolen by a badge bandit?
So what happens if you defeat Doopliss before Vivian rejoins the fight? Idk if it's possible without some form of modding, but I'd be very curious to see it.
Is the multihit Love Slap supposed to hint that the actual move is meant to be multihit and not shit? (The audience always boos Mz. Mouse for the love slap, so maybe..?)
I remember when I first played this goombella had multibonk and I didn't even unlock that move yet. Yeah clearly it's not based on Mario's current move set it's just made up. I would say maybe cause doopliss hasn't mastered Mario's body get kind of like in dragonball when ginyu switched bodies with Goku but couldn't tap into Goku's full potienal but obviously that wouldn't apply to goombella.
so are all of the transformations technically the same enemy? Shared HP suggest so but I wouldn't be surprised if it's technically swapping out to entirely distinct enemies in the code which is why something like the status doesn't carry over. Or maybe they just coded it to cleanse for simplicity.
Lets also note that Doopliss can do the most illegal thing in a paper mario game ever: Swapping out partners and attacking in the same turn without quickswap equipped, what a bad impersonator.
@@BalrogQuote Alr here is something better: He can do 2 moves in a turn without having the buff that allows you to do so when transforming(ex.: Transforming into Goombela then doing a headbonk in the same turn).
super interesting things we discover for a game that i had 19 years ago as a child and never notice(not whole i mean) tough always knew doopliss stats was janky and unbalanced in both fights. Would be a New suscriber if I was Not a Suscriptor Already xD...
Just a bit of a headcanon for me, but maybe his hammer being treated as a contact move with Zap Tap is because he isn't holding an actual hammer, it's just an extension of his body from his transformation magic.
Also, just like Mario is full of spaghetti, Doopliss if full of spaghetti code
In addition to your headcanon, I think doopliss’s poorly executed attacks (and even his mastery of some attacks) is just doopliss not being able to copy memories or techniques and relies on imitating Mario’s movements
And the partners are like: oh, if he can do illecal moves, I can too.
Honestly, I think Doopliss may have a weirder corruption aura that allows for free thought but allows for subtle impossible changes to those that would follow Doopliss so long as they follow Doopliss. The Shadow Sirens control him, so the Chapter 8 Shadow Sirens battle only has Doopliss behaving weirdly.
@@poobanans670so he's Ginyu
r/beatmetoit
Doopliss would make for such a sick partner. Copying enemies in battle, calling Mario "Slick" all the time, etc
His design follows the standard for partners too. A standard enemy with unique colors and a hat/accessory.
@@Cyberguy64 it would be interesting if they made him an optional partner post-game if they ever remake TTYD
@@GermanCricket13 You know, that's actually not a bad idea at all!
Doopliss would be a good peggle master as well.
@@GermanCricket13 He likely could be since he gave up on the Shadow Sirens by then and joined one of Mario's other partners too. I could only imagine what he could say in optional content like Bonetail
Being trash at action commands and general strategy is perfectly in line with his character. Intentional or not I love it.
The partners doing weird damage in the Chapter 4 fight is the definition of the Boss when you fight it vs the Boss when you unlock it as a character XD
The playable character when you unlock them as a boss
To be fair, Doopliss doesn’t have to follow other characters’ rules because he’s not TRULY them.
Doopliss' Goombella having Multibonk even if she isn't Super-ranked reminds me of how Vivian has Fiery Jinx when you fight her during the first Shadow Sirens battle, before she ever has a chance to become Super rank.
Yeeeeah she should've just had a buffed shade fist instead if they wanted to make her difficult, instead of foreshadowing moves she shouldn't have yet
Same with doopliss' goombella and her basic headbonk
The definition of “the boss when you encounter them vs the boss in your party” but at least Vivian gets to relearn her techniques. At least with Vivian, that can be handwaved as not wanting to do stuff related to Beldam (and Beldam would have her use powerful moves like Fiery Jinx) and that she thinks herself weak outside of Beldam’s watch, so she only uses Shadow Punch.
"What you doing, Vivian?! I'll never forgive you if we lose!"
"S-sorry, sis!"
That's the forced motivation that made her use fiery jinx the first time.
@@RockStoneLee19 y'know what, I can buy that headcanon
@@iantaakalla8180also maybe Vivian lost confidence in herself due to Beldam's constant insults and punishments, but after sticking around with Mario's crew and getting to Super Rank, she did just regain the confidence she lost, but she managed to master the move this time, making it even stronger than when she was with her sisters
The P badges not working on Vivian was almost certainly unintentional. I don't remember the details, but she's added to the fight without running the function that recalculates what badges should be equipped in battle based on your current inventory (I think maybe the btlevtcmd_SpawnUnit function just doesn't ever run that logic, and this is the only time a player character joins mid-fight?). This is kind of the inverse of the bug that causes partners' HP to go screwy when stolen from by a Badge Bandit (since the function to recalculate which badges should be equipped _is_ run then, and also pulls the partner's current and max HP from their last value on the field).
Mowz's Love Slap _does_ have multiple hits (2-4 hits based on rank), only the last of which is actually a damage-dealing attack. The number of hits it does actually determines whether or not getting countered by Payback glitches out, as the direction she faces when attacking is different, and only one direction's script code has the bug.
Your guess is as good as mine as to why they remembered the flag for diminishing damage on Ch.8 Goombella but not Ch.4; I'd say that it was probably more noticeable to take a ton of 3-damage hits than 2-damage ones, but you'd think Doopliss never using a hammer would be at least as noticeable (especially given you're not guaranteed to have Goombella out for the Ch.8 fight).
There are also some other non-P badges that don't work in that fight right? I remember you mentioning simplifier and unsimplifier.
Also I heard doopliss only uses his jump in chapter 8 but actually has an unused double jump that deals 6 damage twice.
@@condoslime776 Correct; those aren't P badges, but don't work on Vivian for the same reason. And no, the unused Ch. 8 Doopliss Spin Jump does _8_ damage twice. (He also has unused hammer attacks that deal 6 and 8 damage.)
That’s some PhD level Paper Mario knowledge. Fascinating
Love Slap having multiple non-damaging hits is also apparent from the fact that the crowd always boos during those hits, even if you do the Action Command perfectly. That's probably another oversight
@@jdaster64 that's crazy
I just had the most amazing Doopliss fight. I beat all the partners, then without me even realizing he had 1 hp left, a shy guy ran on stage and dropped a bucket on him for the win in slow motion. Incredible
I just had this happen to a bald cleft yesterday!
i had this happen to bowser
That happened to me with macho grubba
Similar thing happened to me. Vivian had already set him on fire, and then right at the end of the fight the stage hazards froze Mario and Vivian solid. I was resigned to being stuck taking two or three attacks before I could finish him off...and then the fire ticked, and he apparently only had 1 HP left.
I’m assuming that was the remake?
I’ve heard the actual technical reasoning, but I need to believe The P-Badges don’t work for the reason we all want: you’re against Doo_liss
shh dont say his name
It's not the u__er-case P that's missing, it's the lower-case one. The P-Badges should have their abilities unaltered.
@@Sephiroth08150 I mean, you're still (doo) p-less
I think it’s because she joins you MIDFIGHT, and doesn’t technically become part of “The Party” until AFTER the fight, she’s not shown as a “Partner” and thus the badges don’t buff her.
Aw gosh darn it the P got hidden again
4:09 It should be interesting to note that Doopliss' animation here is actually different than Vivian's Shade Fist animation. It's actually the attack Vivian uses during the first Shadow Sirens fight! Strange how he still doesn't use Firey Jinx when Vivian does in fact use that move during the first fight...
Doopliss looks like he's giving you a hug when he attacks as Vivian tbh
I think it makes perfect sense that Doopliss is an imperfect copy. His hammer makes contact because, well, Mario still has it. So his hammer would logically have to also be a copy, and by that technicality, a part of him.
Honestly all of his weirdness always just seemed intentional to me, like he couldn't quite figure out how the moves were supposed to work. The goombella multibonk is crazy though... maybe Doopliss is a better trainer than Mario. lmao
the remake added a new trick up their sleeve now; If you one or two turn them, they have a life shroom that they dont have if vivian is there; If you one turn them, vivian shows up turn two (a turn earlier) and if you two-turn them, they have extra dialogue when they activate their life shroom (if you one round them, they give the normal "oh you can hurt me now" dialogue).
What is the extra dialouge?
@@diamondan5721 frustratingly i didn't get a clip of it as i was trying to see what would happen if you one rounded and reset without grabbing a clip.
iirc, it was something along the lines of "you thought you could do that to the great mario" or something. somebody has probably uploaded it somewhere by now.
My best guess on the multihit ms mowz jank is that Doopliss's love slap attack was copied from an unfinished version of love slap in which it was a multihit move
That makes sense. They probably intended it to be like Bow's Smack.
Exactly what I was thinking!
Love Slap *is* a multi-hit move, though. The first hits don't do damage, but they're still part of the animation. They're coded as hits; because they don't do damage, the audience always boos them.
@graphitedrizzle it is actually incorrectly coded to be counted as a failed or non-contact hit though. Which is why it pisses off the crowd in the original ttyd, but in the remake this was fixed and the crowd doesnt do the booing on love slap.
Doopliss tries to do Vivian's shade fist properly and just uses like, a lighter and a can of compressed air
The fact that you’re standing on the wrong side of the battlefield is pretty weird to begin with.
You would think Doopliss' fights would be less janky than the duplighosts in paper mario 64, but I guess they were rusty or his infrequency by comparison made them miss some spot checks. But the worst part... no partner tattles this time! (besides Vivian)
Totally forgot Duplighosts as Goombario could tattle! What a crazy niche detail to add in. How invested a development team those guys were
There's a pair of placeholders for hostile Tattles, but the placeholder raises an issue: "That's Mario!" doesn't make sense when the whole idea is that Goombella *doesn't* know it's Mario.
With that said, I would find it cute if Goombella could Tattle Vivian in Chapter 4, and also make it so her doing the Tattle would actually officially count for your Tattle Log (this is less a legitimate strategy and more making it so the Vivian Tattle doesn't appear in the trash can until *after* she's defected.)
@@phineas81707 That sounds like a neat way to make Goombella sound unsure of herself mid-battle. "That's...Mario? That's what it says here, but that doesn't make any sense. Could it be a typo?" Bonus points if Mario's health showed up as a health bar underneath him, too.
@@chad_bro_chillbro her book isn’t magical, she’d say something like “that’s the duplighost pretending to be Mario” followed by some quip
@@thomaswang2223 Yet it knows the exact stats of the Shadow Queen, which most people didn't even know about.
a weird amount of this makes sense actually. like, you don't have your body, so you don't have your badges. unless they were working previously. and when it's the ghost himself as the partners or mario, he doesn't know quite how to 100% accurately do their moves,
as for when he's using the partners, um.. maybe he's just a really good coach?
When Doopliss copies Vivian his shade fist looks more like a shade clap
The Shadow Queen does the same thing as Doopliss if you defeat her in her first form before she turns invincible. She comes back with more HP. I don't remember how much HP she gets though.
90
honestly one of my favourite characters so far. his whole schtick is so cool, the way he calls mario "slick", how he poorly tries to imitate mario's mannerisms to convince your partners, just the way he's written in general. even his cute ghost design. I just think he's neat.
I think the base damage of the spin jump in the japanese version of TTYD is actually 2, which would be why Doopliss' failed spin jump does 2 damage instead of 3
So you're telling me Love Slap could have actually had a purpose by inflicting multiple hits? Damn shame
It doesn't matter if doopliss is glitchy af. His battle theme slaps.
Thats exactly my thoughts.
Doopliss is always one of the more interesting bosses in this game, and how he's programmed is no exception.
Honestly the Ms. Mowz shenanigans make me believe Ms. Mowz’s basic attack was supposed to be a lot better earlier in development, like Bow’s slap from Paper Mario 64. Would make sense if it was a balancing mismanagement, since Ms. Mowz just kinda sucks in the final release.
Goombella's Multibonk not decreasing damage every hit would make her unusually viable
0:22 Goombella failed the Headbonk action command, so that one X-Naut in the audience should be throwing a rock at her...
If only Miss Mowz had doopliss's version of her attack, she would have been a much better partner. Lol
a french man with a smoking problem does a better job at copying the enemies' abilities and he just uses a piece of paper with a drawing on it.
When Vivian joins the fight she actually occupies a 2nd partner slot that is why the partner badges do nothing.
If you use a hack to recover your partners you can have 2 at once on the field. Not sure if that does break the game or not but yea, it's made in a strange fashion and only applies to doopliss #2
you should try and check if P-Badges work during the running section
Oh yeah
There are codes to actually put partners in the second partner slot
But I don't think they can put two out at once, the code/battle menu that swaps them out handles that
I feel like she should've been in that slot until she really joins you, not the other way around lol
0:43 ...where the hammer is likely a direct extension of yourself
at least, that's one interpretation
i enjoy the editing work done to keep the music going seamlessly so often in this video :)
I always saw Doopliss and your partners doing poor damage as a balancing measure by the devs.
I'd imagine the battle would be painful to get through if doopliss or any of your partners dealt more than 4 dmg each when they attacked.
That's why superguard exists... Also the Doopliss boss fight is among the least difficult in the game so even if Doopliss and partners dealt upgraded damage it would still be possible to beat.
@@kaikaikool1973yeah besides
ONLY goombella is mandatory you can just attack doopliss and the other partners won't come out
I would love it if the other partners would use their other attacks as if beating goombella makes it a harder versión of the fight
As soon as koops appears he could use shell shield to defend doopliss then attack with either Shell toss or power shell and every 5 turns or so use shell shield
Flurrie uses body slam and sometimes the kiss ( can't remember the name )
Finally yoshi using gulp and mini egg as well as the ground pound
I suspect that the fact Doopliss' copy of Vivian can't inflict Burn is because it's lifting the enemy data from the Chapter 2 Vivian fight and adjusting stats, but they forgot to have it inflict burn.
But doesn’t chapter 2 vivian have fiery jinx? Setting aside why she has that in ch2, wouldnt dooplis be expected to also use it in ch8?
@@yoshifan2334 You're right, actually, I completely forgot about that. That _is_ weird, then!
I think it would have been a cool trip up if you were on the left side, as your identity has been stolen
I love weird stuff like this.
Thank you for showing us this cool stuff, Koops!
Doopliss is hiding a GameShark under his sheet
Underrated comment
Okay, so I knew about the thing with P badges not working, probably because of the fact Vivian joins mid-battle. I also knew about the whole deal with Goombella's Multibonk being weird, and I knew about the thing with what happens if you do more damage than necessary in the Chp. 4 fight
But the rest? Nada. Didn't even know about Yoshi's Ground Pound being weird.
I really have to wonder if this is the result of them not being careful when putting this fight together, or the game possibly being rushed like other Gamecube titles, or maybe both? I dunno. Doopliss is a complicated boss. I'd imagine soooo many things would have to be taken into account when putting those two fights together because of the fact that you're basically fighting yourself/your party members. But like, now you've shown just how weird this fight is and it really makes me feel like they absolutely dropped the ball here.
Still really cool though, thank you for this video lmao
I know specifically the partner badges not working is actually because Mario actually has two partner slots, and the second slot is only really used for this or a couple more cinematic bits that have other "partners" on screen with more script-heavy applications, like Frankley giving you tutorials. Vivian is probably assigned to that slot, because having a partner join mid fight is script-messy enough to fit there (and notably this ONLY applies to this fight, she's in the first slot like normal in the bit before this).
Badges just don't touch the second slot, and if you mess around with the game a bit you can actually stuff partners in that slot freely, and consistently get the same result.
I have nothing to base this on besides circumstance and gut instinct, but between the way Ms. Mowz' Love Slap consistently gets the "failed attack" penalty to audience response and SP gain, the fact this doesn't happen in the remake implying it was a mistake and not intentional, and the variable hits here makes me think Love Slap USED to be a multi hit, like Bow in PM64, but was changed to its current state late in development... so late that nobody went back and changed the basic way Doopliss' version worked, besides changing the damage values making it deal 0 damage on the first hits so it at least lines up.
I think the Partner oddities are old stats that weren't updated. Am I correct in assuming that the enemy partners are entirely separate from their regular versions? Most likely included in Doopliss himself?
If so then any changes made to the partners during development would have to be replicated which could easily be forgotten especially if different people handled it. This could even answer why there were differences between the battles as they made at different points in development.
As for Doopliss being injured by counter moves when shouldn't, could be intentional so the player can still harm him...or could also be a case of old stats. Either way pretty interesting stuff here.
0:45 Ew! You know what that means? That hammer is actually part of himself! Like he grew an extra limb to mimic the attack!
Why do you think he looks so tired? Lol
Mario is probably the most complex creature he's had to mimic
I approve of Beldam receiving a Superguard smack at every turn
I wonder if the Ms. Mowz slap that Doopliss copied is taking its script from an earlier version of the move? It couod be that they programmed him to use a version of the Slap, and then changed Ms. Mowz' version of it but not Doopliss.
There's actually a good explanation as to why Doopliss comes back with 10 HP before he turns into Mario. He just so happens to have a Life Mushroom as a life insurance incase he meets his untimely demise.
the ms mowz slaps are the definition of jank, thats crazy!
I'll never forget when I was a kid I'd skip dialogue very often to get into gameplay. Well I skipped the Vivian primer dialogue and for the life of me couldn't figure out how to find his name. I dropped the game for like 3 years before I picked it up again and actually read the text. That's when I facepalmed the hardest in my life.
I suspect the discrepancies are maybe a peek at earlier states of game balance during development.
It makes sense that the second fight is closer to correct because it was presumably written and coded in later. Plus I suspect the second sirens fight as a whole might have been a late addition to pad out the game’s length.
The Shadow Sirens were probably intended to be in the Riddle Tower itself, rather than just lying around like a bunch of weirdos. Then again, the Riddle Tower itself has weird behaviour thanks to a possible late addition (the trash can doesn't know you can get Red Bones' Tattle from here).
0:50 to me, the hammer is part of dooplis's body, bc he don't actually have a hammer, he just copyies your attacks
For the 2+2 = Spin Jump. Maybe at some point, it was based off PM64, where a regular double jump used the Spin Jump if you had the Super Boots?
& for the Electrfied vs Hammer.... Well, metal conducts electricity, right? Alternatively, what if, since he's a shapeshifter, the hammer is just part of his body?
1:43 Dang!
3:45 Strange. I guess Gale Force by an enemy would be too swingy. Can Yoshi in Chapter 4 do a Gulp against Mario's side?
4:09 It seems like Doopliss is doing a different hand motion than Vivian. Is that what it is? Was that what Vivian used in the Shadow Sirens battle?
Neat video! Thanks for uploading! I'm interested to learn more about this!
Flurry is the one who has gale force, not vivian
The timestamp goes to when he copies vivian
Also he doesn't do shade fist, that's probably why it doesn't cause burn
That's some weird clap attack the other shadow sirens had before
@@Knux5577 My bad. I mentioned it because it was at around the end of the caption mentioning copying partner's Special Attacks, like Multibonk & Power Shell; Gale Force would be next in that order.
& yeah, I mentioned that Doopliss-Vivian's hand motions for attacking as Vivian are different than Vivian.
Still, thanks for helping to clarify!
It is honestly pretty cool that the partners get stronger when you fight them, just as when you control them in battle. Makes the fight a bit of punishment for ranking up your partners too zealously.
Honestly, this makes me fear doopliss just a bit more when using my partners. But him...its like it breaks the rules of what the game should be.
2:21 vivian suremy removed the badge and left. When she came back, she didn't put it back on
My pfp was Doopliss for the longest time, best character and best battle theme song in TTYD
legit the one thing I always found weird about Doopliss in the Shadow Sirens encounter is
how he lost the ability to Spin-jump entirely, alongside losing the hammer-
but losing the hammer probably makes sense to an extent since he didn't steal Mario's body like in chapter 4
but the fact he loses Spin-Jump instead of keeping it(he deff should've considering he could use it prior, even if it could've been because he stole Mario's body)
or not getting access to Spring Jump, considering Mario has Ultra boots at that point, is deff one of the stranger things in that battle whenever he becomes Mario.
I can only assume the reason he's significantly weaker when transforming into Mario in the Shadow Sirens fight could be because he needs to steal the body, but then that does not explain him being able to use Goombella's multi-bonk
Doopliss deff one of the strangest Duplighost type-enemies, yet also the most fun to mess around with(in ch. 4 at least).
I can't wait to see how this plays out in the remake it'd be very interesting if they kept it the same
You forgot to mention the weirdest thing about Doopliss using Shade Fist: he doesn’t.
For whatever reason when copying Vivian, he claps you instead, like her sisters. An animation you never see Vivian herself do.
It’s probably why it doesn’t burn Mario and co.
You actually do see that animation. Vivian does use the clap attack like her sisters in the fight with the Shadow Sirens in Chapter 2. And then she joins you after that. The weirder thing is that Doopliss never uses Fiery Jinx, despite having full access to it presumably. Guess my mans never figured out elemental magic. XD
Actually curious, what happens if Doopliss uses Love Slap on you with P-Up D-Down equipped? Would the hits before the last one deal damage in that case, similarly to how fog appearing can hit you, dealing 0 damage, but actually can deal 1 with P-Up D-Down?
Nope, they're non-damaging hits, like ice jets.
This does actually (maybe) confirm my theory on Love Slap, and specifically why it doesn't generate SP/gets "boos" from the crowd.
Those first "hits" the move does aren't just animation, they are, in fact, "real" hits that just do 0 damage... which means tbe entire move gets the failed move penalty you get for doing no damage to an enemy.
I actually noticed the partner badge oddity on my first playthrough. I was so confused.
1:50 I swear that is the roblox oof sound
I’m assuming the weird parts with his chapter 4 fight has to do with the fight being designed before they had the partner scaling decided but knew what partners would be able to do at max rank, so they designed the fight around that
The one where Doopliss still transforms as Mario and heals 10 HP if you kill him before he transforms into Mario is pretty neat. Nintendo considered the possibility that people would do that, and still made sure that Doopliss always transformed into Mario before the fight ended!
Also, this video brought me a ton of nostalgia. I may buy the remake if I get enough money.
hey koop your videos inspired me to replay ttyd and i double super guarded hooktail on 1 hp and no life shroom and won the fight, didnt use the R badge either. thanks for the good vids
Good stuff
I wonder if Ms. Mowz still affected by the "P" badges in the 2nd fight of Doopliss. Yes it's a glitch and yes you're not suppose to have her before chapter 5, but with the Early Ms .Mowz Glitch is possible. And yes I know it can softlock the game, as it dosen't know how to deal with it if you have her instead of Vivian, but it's for science ! At least Doopliss know Ms. Mowz do piercing damage but yeah it's wierd to see a 3 hit attacks when you usually just one when you have her with you.
You can have Ms. Mowz before chapter 5, though, at least in the remake, since the trouble quest required to get her as a partner becomes available after the events of Chapter 4.
@@JZJ7777 I already know that, in fact it was the case for the original game. Ms. Mowz requirement didn't change between both games. It's just in the original game it exist a glitch you can get her earlier which require at least the super boots to get her. Funnily enough bringing Ms.Mowz or the Admiral (if you go for early Bobbery in chapter 5 instead) beating Doopliss with any of them, will create a 3 v 2 fight with 2 partner on your side and making the final fight against Doopliss super easy.
I knew I wasn’t the only one that noticed Doopliss didn’t copy Vivian’s attacks
Wish Doopliss could tattle Mario when he copies Goombella in Chapter 8.
Kinda like with the duplighosts when they copy Goombario in PM64.
I love Doopliss. He’s such a cutie! I mean, look at him! He’s adorable.
(I played the remake) when I first played the game and beat the boss, I also noticed that they had weird attacks which I never had since I didn’t realize the shines were there to upgrade them, I am stupid
Wait, if you kill Doopliss before he becomes shadow mario, he does it anyway and gets back 10 HP? Doopliss really does have unstoppable magic!
5:20 dude think he is lady bow
6:26
Channeling his inner Cortez I guess
With the remake being out for a while now, I hope this video will be revisited at some point.
What a strange, silly little guy
1) I wonder if some of this jank will be fixed in the remake
2) I wonder if some of the partner related jank is from them expecting you to have upgraded them, and thus when you don't you see that apparently stuff is hard-coded and not actually copied
3) Ms Mowz Love Slap.. maybe was supposed to be multi-hit? Like how the Mini Yoshi gets more hits as he is ranked up and Doopliss is inconsistent with the action command thus varied amount of hits
If they remade the game, they probably would fix the doopliss fights
Aged well
@@ReinoiroHow different are the Doopliss fights in the remake?
I know for one thing, Goombella doesn’t do the 2+2+2+so on Multibonk in the remake
They did remake the game, and hopefully they did but I’m not sure.
That's Doo_liss to you, Slick!
Intentional or not, I feel like, lore-wise, it’s pretty interesting that Doopliss’s copied moves deviate from Mario and his Partners.
It seems that his copy ability has limits OR he’s something of an amateur or un-master level in a world of duplighosts when it concerns duplicating. Seeing as how he can’t copy the elemental side of attacks, fails certain actions commands, and doesn’t even *completely* match Mario in appearance.
On the flipside, though, some of the more beneficial add-ons to attacks like Ms. Mowz’s triple slap, Mario’s one-shot jump, and impeccable action commands on certain partners may he the fact that he has improved since last encounter and can even alter the abilities with his own improvements to further guarantee success and prevention of previous mistakes.
I also find it quite interesting that he doesn’t even use his hammer the next encounter, it’s almost as if he realizes that because it’s not separate from him, superguarding and payback items are punishing. Plus, the hammer itself is quite slow, predictable, heavy and pretty easy to counter.
I just find it quite hilarious that Mario’s partners were with the Fake Mario and never even questioned the differences in his actions or even the fact that *HE COULD TALK*
Another funny thing is that that Doopliss, a unique enemy and his own boss is an amateur in certain parts of his copying ability and yet, regular duplighosts in Paper Mario 64 guarding the icy castle were impeccable in every sense of copying the partners, and it’s because of their *perfect* and near-overdone impressions of the partners that it becomes obvious who is who.
Sorry for the long comment, just my thoughts on the matter.
Mario can talk. And the partners *do* question Doopliss acting differently.
I think it's one of the most reasonable versions of magically impersonating someone I've seen in fiction. The partners notice, but they don't immediately say "This is clearly an impostor," either. They're getting annoyed with him, but they don't ditch him right away. It's realistic.
(And regular duplighosts were often bad at impersonations. It's a running gag in Paper Mario.)
I really didnt knew he could also copy ur partners in chapter 8, I guess I never let him live enough to do that. But it surprises me that they programmed all 7 partners moves adapted to be in this in specific fight. That dedication and detail cant be seen in new games anymore.
I wonder if their stats really change if you cheat them to ultra rank...
Its kinda funny that you can just cheese the fight by not ever attacking his partners, considering goombella sucks at combat
I always mess up doopliss's name and see doolpiss
You could test the badges only being checked at the beginning of the battle by having all your badges equipped and getting one stolen by a badge bandit?
at 2:40 yeah is sure that reason why she cant have the badge equip
thank you king
He ain't Slick.
Doopliss be like ha I have your body Mario: 👊👊👊👊👊👊👊
So what happens if you defeat Doopliss before Vivian rejoins the fight? Idk if it's possible without some form of modding, but I'd be very curious to see it.
Nothing different. Vivian still joins you after battle.
If you defeat Doopliss before Vivian comes back, he’ll use a life mushroom.
@@JZJ7777 That's only in the remake, which I think is a really cool work around to the problem!
@@HenryXLII I thought so too!
Is the multihit Love Slap supposed to hint that the actual move is meant to be multihit and not shit? (The audience always boos Mz. Mouse for the love slap, so maybe..?)
Someone could probably re-program her love slap into multihits
I know you can increase her damage with gecko/ar codes already
I remember when I first played this goombella had multibonk and I didn't even unlock that move yet. Yeah clearly it's not based on Mario's current move set it's just made up. I would say maybe cause doopliss hasn't mastered Mario's body get kind of like in dragonball when ginyu switched bodies with Goku but couldn't tap into Goku's full potienal but obviously that wouldn't apply to goombella.
so are all of the transformations technically the same enemy? Shared HP suggest so but I wouldn't be surprised if it's technically swapping out to entirely distinct enemies in the code which is why something like the status doesn't carry over. Or maybe they just coded it to cleanse for simplicity.
Lets also note that Doopliss can do the most illegal thing in a paper mario game ever:
Swapping out partners and attacking in the same turn without quickswap equipped, what a bad impersonator.
But how do you know Doopliss doesn't have Quickswap equipped?
@@BalrogQuote But that would make him a bad impersonator- oh wait he is.
You kinda got me to be honest
@@BalrogQuote Alr here is something better: He can do 2 moves in a turn without having the buff that allows you to do so when transforming(ex.: Transforming into Goombela then doing a headbonk in the same turn).
super interesting things we discover for a game that i had 19 years ago as a child and never notice(not whole i mean) tough always knew doopliss stats was janky and unbalanced in both fights. Would be a New suscriber if I was Not a Suscriptor Already xD...
doopliss is a doofuss when it comes to replicating attacks
Wrongamundo little nobody 😂
Where's Stryder when we need him? lol what the hell is actually causing this?
Found a bug with the links. You post part 1 twice.
2 ms mowzes??? I wouldn't mind
6:01 Yeah. I tried it out myself actually
This video needs a remake for the remake and test even more stuff in case they managed to break somethint else