I recently went to my last meeting for good. I hadnt been in a while and felt like going to a meeting. Im four years sober and still going strong. At the end of the meeting an old timer, of course, walks up and says "Havent seen you so long I thought you were cured." I looked at him blankly and walked away. Not "hey great seeing you!", but a canned AA cliche designed to keep you in the rooms at all costs. Because if you arent sitting in that room, every week rain or shine, YOU should feel guilty. You should feel guilty for having no interest in listening to the same boring drunkalogue for the thousandth time. You should feel guilty for wanting to do something FUN on a saturday night. And you should feel guilty because you refuse to let some old timer (the guy who used to get thrown out of bars and killed a kid while driving drunk) tell you how to live your completely normal life. Stay guilty my friends!
Thanks for sharing this. I hate that about AA culture. We often assume that if someone isn't in meetings anymore that they must not be doing well. I've also seen people kind of shamed if they were gone for a while. Like almost accusing them of being a slacker or something. LIke you say, why not just say "hi, great to see you!". I've changed my attitude completely. I realize that not everyone needs to go to AA for the rest of their lives, some only need or want meetings for a certain period of their life and then they move on. So, when I don't see people in meetings, I assume they are doing well, and what I am finding out more often than not... they are doing well!
What a self centred mean spirited person you are...this is an organisation that helped to get you to where you are today....and instead of been gracious when an old timer reaches out to you...you make snide comments about him and project your own paranoia onto the AA.
cathal butler When a member of an organization is more interested in upholding their numbers rather than taking interest in you as a singular being, it is a telling sign that the organization, as a whole, doesn't truly care about you unless you're sober the way they think you should be. Life is lived outside the rooms. If a person has PROGRESSED beyond the meetings, that doesn't mean they haven't been able to lay the foundation through the 12 Steps.
I left AA 20 years ago and I am still sober. 38 years now. I honestly believe if I would have stayed in AA I would be drunk or dead by now. To those who may be new to AA don't believe that AA is your last chance, it is not.
i am grateful because it did help me for the first couple of years is all but im coming to a different point in my recovery process... like i work a program that works for me yes. and if someone ever needed help i would be there to offer them the help 😁 for now i have tools lol
i just dont feel like they should shun my sobriety either... just because i am now working it differently than they do. place principles above personalities... right.... so at the end of the day i am still sober.. but shun me because im not attending meetings
Hi thankyou for this. I am struggling with the powerlessness stuff and leaving meetings feeling heavy depressed and wanting a drink. Hope that I will find another way like your self. Best wishes
I went to 90 in 90 and then one meeting on my five year anniversary. I take personal inventory every day, I make amends when I'm wrong. Thank you AA for the lessons but the rooms aren't for me.
I was an atheist court-ordered into this religious program. I am so glad I will never again have to listen to the same old crap week after week. One old man, several meetings a week, would remind the room that he had 27 years clean, before reiterating (probably for the thousandth time), "You all know that your BEST thinking earned you a seat in here!" while slowly scanning the room and making eye contact with every newcomer. I truly wanted to approach him and say, "No, it wasn't my best thinking that got me here. I don't think anyone does their best thinking when they're drunk or high on drugs, do you? I also don't think it means I should leave my logic stuck in the umbrella rack at the door when I walk in, or ignore the cognitive dissonance building due to the unhealthy ideas in this 'self-help' program." Currently almost two years clean off heroin WITHOUT AA / NA and enjoying life again.
I quit AA, im over it. they say the "promised spiritual awakening will occur." if you work these 12 "simple" steps. You walk into AA recognizing you have a problem with alcohol, therefore you had power over it. Because you stopped drinking. So you were never powerless in the first place.
Space Ghost, In that case, all one has to do is not drink, but AA dogma comes with a truck load of other stuff. Like step 3 we made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of god as we understood HIM. Now, if you are one who believes that a lamp or a doorknob can be your higher power how does that work? And how does one seek through prayer and meditation (for many its prayer and medication), a conscious contact with a doorknob or a lamp. Asserting that anything can be your higher power is a cop-out. AA has definite religious dogma and they obviously are not talking about a doorknob in the book "Came to Believe" which is AA approved literature. So let's not pretend here. Also, why would you capitalize a noun? It's like writing a sentence about coffee and using an uppercase letter ie; Dennis really loves Coffee and dogs. Subtle but with repetition the message gets through. You must believe in a god with human like traits, one who answers prayers. Can a doorknob answer prayers or restore you to sanity? I think not but then again maybe my sanity has been restored and that's why I left AA.
Recovery, even benevolent secular recovery, generally should be like training wheels: there when you need it, especially early on, but gradually more and more unnecessary as you gain time, experience and confidence in yourself. Addiction is simply a very powerful habit and once we retrain our brains through work and practice to respond differently we have less need for constant support. From my experience recovery was a 2 part process: recovery from alcohol addiction and then recovery from recovery towards reintegrating into society simply as a non-drinker.
Six years sober. Was very involved in AA. Chaired meetings, was on the intergroup, has sponsees. Left after 3 years for a lot of reasons people in this thread have mentioned. AA is not the be all end all. It helped me get on the right track but it just wasn’t for me in the end. One of the final straws for me was when someone told me that me going to my kids soccer games (on a meeting night at my home group) wouldn’t keep me sober. Yupppp seems like I was the one with my principles straight and he needed to check his personality.
That's just down right low blow below the belt. Any addiction including Alcoholism needs a lot of social support besides going for any treatment and programs. Spending time with yr son, enjoying the company of loved ones and friends is one of the pillars to end any addiction. And i am not even an American.
You have to live by your own judgement/conscience, and be strong in what you actually believe, and feel free to disregard other people's opinions about your life if you believe in what you are doing. You are allowed to disagree with people (in or out of AA) and not take their words to heart. I've been lectured and disapproved of several times in AA but don't feel the need to explain myself. Like you said..... their problem rather than yours, or at least their opinion that you just don't agree with
@@macrick you just have to go with what you believe is best. I have known people not come to meetings specifically to stay at home with family who have ended up using and losing family etc. No black and white rule. Worth weighing up ourselves and going by our own conscience, which is all anyone can do really (well, I suppose some people might be submissive and do what they think people expect of them, which won't work happily I don't think, not for long anyway)
@@stubdo16 I would just say that it’s the culture of AA. “This is the solution” and if you don’t do that solution then you’re destined to get drunk again.
@@jamesssss621 some people in aa can be like that, granted. I don't see it much in England, but then again I take what people say with a pinch of salt. I think that is more human nature rather than AA culture. (Assuming you are from U S A)... Would Republican Party hq have leaflets giving a balanced view on Democrat and Communist parties, and saying that potential Republicans may wish to consider what other parties, or mix their ideologies? Not likely. But AA literature itself is much more enlightened and open minded than what some people may say. Especially podium show offs and bossy controllers. AA big book: "if he is sincerely interested and wants to see you again, ask him to read this book in the interval. After doing that, he must decide for himself whether he wants to go on. He should not be pushed or prodded by you, his wife, or his friends. If he is to find God, the desire must come from within. If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in com- mon and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that." I think that it means that. The only point of AA is for people to be happy and healthy, not to adhere to some AA ideology for the sake of it
I'm seven years out now, emailed Jon eight years ago and he was very supportive and helpful. Still have friends inside the fellowship, but am happy I made the move.
At this point, I've been in AA for a year and I will be 1 year sober at the end of may. Last night, right after I shared in front of a group, it finally hit: I need to leave AA ASAP! It feels like I'm in a narcissistic relationship. I feel trapped, held back by people constantly looking for validation and expecting me to ask for theirs. I love many people I've met in these meetings and I'm grateful I got their help, but I need to step out. I need to move on with life.
@@Healinglove Do it. Walk away. 🫵🏻 Promess yourself to go back if you feel like drinking again. I don’t regret leaving and haven’t felt like drinking any more or less since.
@@guillaumebousquet5138 , I will go back if I feel like drinking again. Honestly, over memorial day, I drank heavily, after being 10 year's sober, BIT, it was my choice; I was fully aware of what I was about to go do. I haven't drNk since. I'm thankful to aa for being there for me in the beginning, was very helpful, I don't feel this way any longer.
@macrick Christianity doesn't teach in a 'God of your understanding', that's universalism. Bill Wilson performed seances and played with a Oujia board as well as 13 stepped women.
@catherinecooper8370 It's 100% influenced by evangelical Christianity. It's the same as with Mormonism; they added their own spin to it but that doesn't mean it's not heavily influenced by Christianity.
I’m on the cusp of leaving. I am not leaving entirely out of resentment, but I don’t like the way they teach you not to trust your inner self and intuition. That you’re independent thought is diseased thinking, your doubt and questioning is rooted in sickness. I also forced friendships with a lot of people. I never felt like I found my people, like young women working towards a new life with goals and ambitions and living healthy in most ways. It’s my non NA friends who are like that. I am checking out Recovery Dharma because I am a practicing Buddhist and want to find others I can relate with rather than people who say they love you but don’t even think about sending you a card on your birthday.
My sobriety date is 2008. I found myself becoming angry and resentful in meetings and really forcing myself to participate. I didn't want to go out of obligation fear or guilt. Every now and again I'll stop in but I'm really just making myself sit there. After a number of years I've seen people get sober leave meetings and just build their lives with other things then recovery. It's a really weird place to be right? I just can't do meetings anymore.
Hiya. I dont attend AA anyone I find it apoling how people are treated at the place. Fake people living fake lifes....oh yeah and having fake friends. The only time I feel like using is when iv been around the phoney liars and their discussions behaver. I have watched pretty woman being shunned out of the program because they are pretty confident and Beautyful. Forces have horrible lifes using because the are jealous. Iv seen woman pretend they are the answers to every other womans problems so they can collect sponsess like throphys. Also if witnessed woman being forsed to disclose details about their life In meetings where it can place them in more harm. The culture is all wronge. I would once apon a time. Thought I had a resentment towards these woman and I would of took the higher moral ground and prayed for them. But I think these poor girls need more that prayers their are actually bring bated and exploited for entertainment and approval. Poor girls who come at a last chance to get help. Yeah people do get well but what about the girls that dont or men....I suppose we should just pray for them too 😜 it is a joke! I see peole commenting the most silliest things under reasonable points of view......I cant wait for the rescueing people to comment back sayying allsorts of creepy responses save your own comments for your self and your sponsees who need your help!!!! Happy joyuse and free and still opinionated.
I haven't been to a meeting in a long time. But have cautiously thought of going to one recently. I miss the camaraderie/fellowship, but not the dogma and toxic gaslighting of the program.
A quote from the big book of AA "Resentment is the number one offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else". How many triggered AA people on this thread will admit they have a resentment against people who speak out against AA? I got your (AA) number I got your (AA) dogma, I know your ( AA) program you can save your shame for the newcomers, they will take it, I won't.
It’s gross because it’s normal to feel resentment against someone who has violated you; they shame and blame sexual assault survivors. They protect sex offenders. That’s why I left. Cutting toxic people out is better than losing resentment. It’s normal yo feel resentment if you have been wronged. AA is toxic positivity.
they have no understanding or empathy or compassion patience or tolerance, for anyone who leaves and talks of there true expierance of it ,they dont understand that some who leave need help to overcome things such as fears about leaveing, further help that is not AA, trauma they may have ended up with from going there ,or being abused in there by other members, or to share with others so they can get rid of resentments. AA tells people to share there resentments..AA tells people to be honest ,but gets upset when people are honest.
I left a.a about 5 year ago many of the people I meet there stop talking me I'm talking people that where my friends for most 17 years .that best decision I ever made .thanks to you tube after washing documentaries on what is a cult I'm also a atheist when I finally become honest with myself.
the 12 steps work well for sorting out some things, but the meetings and some of the fellowship has ,in some areas gotten most definitely cult like and destructive. at the very least its a reshaping of the junior high experience. Putting other drunks on a pedestal, worshiping them ,clamoring for validation etc, a bit creepy.
@@stonecold5373 I am not sure why people like to group agnostics with atheists. There not the same. Agnostics are more in line with believers. My experience was quite different. I was rejected by the group for not having a belief. I have got sober with the 12 steps and have avoided the "fellowship". I had even been threatened by a christian zealot not to come back or else. The oldtimers who were the base leaders never once intervene. So my experience is in direct contradiction with your statement. Like religion, critical thinking is out the window here too. .
I got sober with the 12 steps. The fellowship was absolutly full of bat shit crazies. My sponsor said get sober and get out of here. it's a religion unto itself. Im sober because of 12 steps, I'd be drunk if I had stayed. Being an atheist made the steps challenging the fellowship made them impossible.
AA's twelve step process allowed me to write down the jumbled mess that was my perception of my life story. just writing it out and sharing it with someone gave me great relief. I gained a new perspective on my history. Things happen, that's life. Things don't happen to me. The entire 12 step process changed my life forever. Basically, I have nothing to drink over. I only drank to gain relief from my memories. I do pray, but I'm not sure if anything hears it. I hear it and it helps me. My prayers are all of thanks and for acceptance of the way each day goes. AA saved my life and offers hope for people who have none left. God or no God, without hope alcoholics have not much to live for except the next bottle.
This is great! Thanks for sharing this wonderful discussion. I live in small town and wish there were more secular groups like Agnostica or beyond belief. I have recently removed myself from my home group. Currently looking for secular alternatives in my area.
People claim that in AA a doorknob can be your higher power. How does that jibe with " We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with god as we understood HIM praying only for knowledge of HIS will for us and the power to carry that out? What do you suppose a doorknob's will for you might be? Also, how does one go about improving a conscious contact with a doorknob?
When I came into AA I had no concept of a higher power. I only related to a damning god learned thru religious exploration. I listened to an "old timer" who said," pick anything to pray too. He suggested a door knob. Not asking questions, desperate for a solution I prayed to a door knob. I just pictured a door knob when I prayed, asking for a solution to stay sober and some serenity. Just going through this action, without really believing in anything, helped me to become open to a higher power. My thoughts of desperation and hopelessness were replaced with thoughts of hope and serenity. It took a while, but I finally came to a place were it didn't really matter how I got here, It just mattered that I was out of the darkness and and had a purpose. I realize now the door knob was just something I could focus on to quiet the chatter in my mind trying to convince me to give up. We all have different ways of contacting our higher power. The door knob is just something easy to imagine till you find your own way. When you are living a life without direction, sometimes its better to follow a plan that has worked for others that have had success.
The doorknob idea is stupid And using a person is dangerous Father Martin is a non drinker who has some insight and I agree with the idea of having the entirety of the AA community is a useful beginning
How I became the stop drinking expert was firstly I went to rehab and whilst in there getting a bit of time up without using any drugs or alcohol I realised I can actually live life without this crap and a dam good life also. No more hang overs feeling like shit having to apologize to everyone for my behaviour the night before no having to be around people that use abuse lie steal and cheat of you.. Thank God.. I don't even do meetings because there is too many dickheads in the rooms.. You can do this also don't give up.. Peace Freedom Love..
For me I need the fellowship of the meetings. I drift without it. I am no religious fanatic and I enjoy secular AA, but the main thing for me is to tolerate anything that keeps anyone sober. When I first saw 1000 slogans on the wall, I assessed most of them as stupid. However I came to realize that if any quote , tenet , idea, or delusion was helping anyone then I didn't want to ruin it for them. The normal people are who drive me effing crazy and meetings where speaking and listening in a group that don't judge is essential for me
OK well Im very late in listening to this, I know its been 6 years but I found it still relevant. At 33 years sober I stopped the meetings right around the Covid outbreak, ironically it wasn't Covid but it was being honest about my dis-belief in any higher power. I had quit meetings for about a year and decided to give a try again only to find it had digressed more into god talk. This was a great listen and I found many similarities to my story. I don't bash AA, it was good while I was drying out but, it had become stale and I needed more. I've since jumped into exploring secular Buddhism and Stoic philosophy , so I really appreciates hearing that Bill said "any therapy is good", I agree. Being sober has become about exploring my mind and my dis-ease.
I always find this talk interesting and listen from time to time. I don't quite get it as my experience of AA has been throwing out any guilt I had about my lack of belief in Jesus prior to AA, and throwing out whole chunks of superstitious belief I never was brave or honest enough to admit I didn't believe. AA was founded on the basis that it is a god our own conception. Abstract, non-supernatural conceptions are fine. If someone does have some supernatural power I leave them to it. Whatever works for them as long as it is not forced into anyone else.
And I totally agree with people trying the cravings drugs and other agencies before AA. AA is a last resort to me. I tried the Samaritans, psychiatrists, rehab etc. Before i ever considered Aa. My relationship with aa is down to my own understanding of the AA big book and my own abstract concept of a god which required me to drop my strong belief in my concept of the god I didn't actually believe in. I swapped it for what I do believe in - peace, the amazing fact of being alive in the light of knowing I will go back to what I was before being born, and appreciating daily life and thinking I might as well be a bit kind and pleasant when the opportunity arise. I have never been able to stomach religion or people in AA telling me what to do. I searched inside myself to what I really believed. I only learned to do this in AA.
Hey - sorry that I am kind of late but I just found your videos lately - I´m still grateful for all those videos about leaving AA. Over here in Germany - ex-members are still not ready to open up about all that crap which has happened in those cult meetings of AA . Went in there in Jan. 99 and within a year I became sick and tired about those nasty behaivor against the new AA members especially - too many gossip girls around me - with lots of narc. abuse incl. lovebombing at the very start but pretty soon it switched into very much control and manipulation - if you are atheist or agnostic there is lots of religious bs within those steps and the program - lots of devout churchgoers who want to take control about what you believe or have faith in....´how often you do come into those meetings - and kind of controlling about your private life - gossip girls all around, a strange woman offers you her sponsorship and little later start to tell you - how to live your life - they don´t want newcomers to go and see a therapist when they do suffer about childhood trauma and alcohol was just one way to compensate your pains inside of you. Those meeting were very much like being in a strange kind of cult - just like being in a strange kind of fundamental bible freak community. Without ever going back to AA I did stay sober until today. Thank you very much for all those videos from different ex-members of AA cult.
I left after 13 years. I was disappointed with people and there was always the god thing making me feel an outsider and like I couldn't work a "good" program. I have now come back at 44 years and testing the waters. Oddly, I have yet to find someone with longer sobriety than me. P.S. I heard Clancy in one of his last speaking engagements.
I can’t get over the old timers egotistical righteousness, I’ve been told what to say and not what to say while sharing back !! If you can be a robot without emotions or passion or truth then you’ll do well in AA I still go just to see the old timers try to understand how I’ve managed to not relapse 😂 that’s what really keeps me sober 😆
An old timer on his 2nd relapse since I joined asked me a question about my "rock bottom" and I responded in a few sentences and then he edited my response admonishing me for dwelling in it. I have a dozen or so other instances that baffled me and I was only in AA for a little over 90 days. I am still deprogramming more than a month later.
I wish you would do the topic of the coin. It means nothing. Is it an aa idol? Helping people not drink has nothing to with a coin, used to recognize sobtiety. Being sober not counting the days but making changes so you don't pick up a drink to solve things and what your life looks like. Such as how you treat other's, a work ethic, being resonsible. THE COIN Is Used for a symbol of hierarchy in the membership. Its like believing in santa claus. It only works if you believe in the idea. All ideas or beliefs dont work all the time or people can not always follow a mindset perfectly. A learning curve of failures happens to sucess. Most experience this. That's why sobriety countdowns get down to 1 guy after decades. It shows people mostly are not sucessful. No way can you figure percentages of an anonymous balances. Anonymity is over with all the new ways of sharing ideas with the internet.
I am just starting my journey and going to AA meetings and SMART Recovery online plus handbook. I consider myself an atheist and reject any prescribed religion or god. However, I do believe in a creative force of the universe. As humans our minds have conscious and subconscious elements. My problems stem from living in my conscious and ignoring my sub-conscious and connection to the universe. I have been too self-centred and egotistical focusing on wants and desires. For me to address my drinking problem I need to address these issues. I was very skeptical about AA at first but do find that I look forward to going and hearing people with similar problem really helps. SMART makes alot of sense but online meetings i don't feel connection. CBT makes alot of sense in addressing thought patterns but to truly address my issue I need to address my subconscious issues. Depending on how I go and how comfortable I find longterm abstinence, I may try Sinclair Method in future to address the biochemical aspect. In summary I think my drinking is first caused by an unhappiness/dissatisfaction in myself followed by learned behaviour and biological triggers to alcohol after years of drinking.
I would say that as humans we all have similar experiences. I had greater success with DBT. and group therapies. AA becomes a religion if you stay long enough. Get sober , geta a life and move on.
Been kicked out of a daily meeting...because of relapse, and well intentioned but slightly ‘offbeat’ shares. I don’t like it, instinctively. Some of the readings, the ‘Just for Today’, are lovely. ‘Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change..’ Brill. ....Also the text is sexist...
I don't know what to do anymore. 7 years in and around aa, 13 treatments, migrating from alcohol to opiates, tried some smart recovery, at least I think I tried, tried spirituality, I'm hitting the wall.
Try something new different and interesting to you 7 is different reality sets back In pink cloud is over highest point in recovery is between 6+7 nothing at all wrong with you just another readjustment keep following your heart find out more of who you are and what you want out of life you didn't get that far by being a loser you're not you're still a leader even if you done with everything that came before personally I like Jordan Peterson he knows us and probably is one of us of course he can't really say so because of traditions keep expanding your version of spiritual experience or try something new I like psychology but also see scripture differently been a member since 89 doing ok lots of different versions of me all promises are true but aspects can't really be communicated until you have the experience yourself same thing different day nothing I can tell you that you don't already know. What would you tell someone like you? I hope this helps. Keep trudging.
@@ericbigelow6083 I never completed amends, so, in fairness, I haven't done all the steps. Gonna' take a crack at it with new sponsor who practices a form of Buddhist meditation, ZaZen, not sure if I spelled that right. We read scripture as well.
thank you and Jon very much. great to hear progressive and open discussion of recovery. after 67 years on the planet (this time) 50 + years of drinking and over 42 years in the drug culture, I am eternally grateful to AA for having been a step along my spiritual path. Active in the program for 13 months of effortless, flawless recovery. IMHO due predominately to my attention to the bio-chemical aspect of diet and nutrition ala (Get sober, stay sober, Cynthia Perkins) thanks again for your interview. In Lak'ech
I love AA and the fellowship. In from 1976. Its awesome in saving the life of chronic alcoholics. Can be very spiritual if that's what you want. peace.
AA is groups of individuals who find others with similar issues and use the program to adapt to a HP to there betterment. It has changed as the strength of sober clear thinking people as yourselves are free to chose your path. AA helped me to get and remain sober for 21 years with similar alcoholics and addicts and we develop friendships with like thinking. . I am curious why the only requirement to have your own meeting is to find 2or 3 and a kettle or water cooler is available to whom wishes to do so, We have a variety of groups in a small country with many different ideas and interpretations of what we each like and remain faithful to our group irregardless how American AA try's to impose its will, and therefore individuals slowly remain sober , respecting your choices and anyone else's as long as sobriety is the outcome.We are trusted servants with no bosses ,my favorite .
My counselor at my methadone clinic was pushing AA on me cause I'll be off soon and he thought I needed it. Does he get brownie points or something for pushing it? lol. Then the jackass leaves cause he got inherited a bunch of money. So all that for what? I already was in AA years ago and couldn't stand the hypocritical horseshit. As soon as you question anything they jump down your throat and think your gonna relapse. I call it the 1930's way to get sober. It'll fall by the wayside and basically be there just for the real crazies and people who want to continue like their poor choices are a disease. My counselor told me it was my job as a younger person to try and update the program...lol. Then he leaves and all his AA pushing bullshit and me going to those meetings was for nothing.
It's funny how atheists see that problem that they cannot be honest about their belief. Me being a born again Christian and having part of AA I couldn't be honest about my belief as I was immediately judged. Either you make up your own idea of a God or you seem to have to become a hypocrite which to me clearly contradicts the principal of honesty in step 1.
And just one more thing... (Columbo is my recovery mascot)... I could not do what I am doing for myself, if I weren't around others like me. I need a community. We all do. My primary mindfulness practice is something called "mindful self-compassion" - look it up - it's a heart-centered version of MBSR - mindulness based stress reduction - that has three components: mindfulness, self-compassion, and common humanity (aka community). MSC helps me treat myself with the same compassion I would show anyone else who suffers from alcoholism... it's like filling up your love tank... and like the flight attendant says - in the case of cabin decompression, before you try to help someone else, PUT YOUR OWN MASK ON FIRST... turns out that hypoxia is pretty deadly. So is the lack of self-compassion. I learn it when I see people helping themselves in recovery, TO recovery. There is an endless supply of it. We can't run out. And we must SHOW UP to get our plate filled. I am not so worried as I used to be. In the past year I have survived alcohol poisoning, addiction to opiates, delerium tremens, withdrawal, COVID-19 restrictions on connection and imposed isolation (in the space where I did so much damage to myself), the death of my mother to COVID-19, a change in employment status that I was not 100 percent sure of or prepared for, and Zoom everything, work, recovery meetings, medical appointments, teletherapy, and telechurch... . You know, it's all going to be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end (pace Sonny in Best Exotic Marigold Hotel, and Billy Graham "read the last page of the Bible")... And recovery is not a destination... it is a path. where are we going? I DON'T KNOW.... and that's more than okay. I am amazed at all of this. I see friends with decades of recovery, holding on to one another in Zoom... yes, they'd rather be in a dingy church room with bad coffee, fluorescent lights and folding chairs... But I share with them... this is amazing. I am at home at 11 am and I am not drinking. I am in a recovery meeting... it's happening here, in my home... this isn't the scene the crime any longer. It's a temple of recovery. And I can see you, your cat, your unmade bed, your star wars background (mine is the Wizard of Oz), and that is a hell of a lot more than we would have shared "in the rooms"... I found Refuge Recovery in the Zooms. I found recovery mentors in Zooms, and on Facebook. And I found a changed attitude too. One like the day Ebenezer Scrooge awakens to on Christmas morning... I am as light as a feather, as happy as an angel, as merry as a schoolboy, and yes, as giddy as a drunken man. www.pagebypagebooks.com/Charles_Dickens/A_Christmas_Carol/Stave_5_The_End_of_It_p1.html - pink cloud? nah. in the pink of life.
They do have AA Agnostica and Freethinkers mtgs in large metro areas, but not many. And in rural areas - forget it. What I do is just let the Jesus speak go in one ear and out the other. And occasionally, if I'm feeling rebellious, I will mention I don't believe in God at a meeting. Sadly though, they'll usually be some old timer that gives you the evil eye if you say the word atheist. I tried starting an agnostic meeting and the central office allowed it, but gave us Wed night at 930 and it caved because not enough people came. But I know we're out there.
Shiawasenaneko 'Central office' doesnt have jurisdiction over when you can or cannot have a meeting or what theme you want. You do not need 'their' approval. Admittedly its better to work things through smoothly. Go low key and see what happens. Where I live i feel everyone cringe a bit if someone goes on about Jesus. I think that by saying the 'J ' word people get some sort of power boost or kudos (or notoriety). Doesn't need to be a big deal though. I refer to god/higher power in my shares happily but am not religious. After a few years of fretting about terminology i got used to it all and know what it means to me. In terms of meeting time/theme Every group is automonous etc, aa shall not be organized etc.. Read the traditions in 12 steps 12 traditions. All members are equal regardless of anything and are not governed or controlled. For a group purpose the ultimate authority is a loving god as he may express himself in your group conscience...
I think the problem is ppl are asking too much of 12 step fellowships. I don't think that's its healthy to go 5 times a day forever. I also think that half measures avail you nothing. I find it all very relative. Some ppl don't fit into group meetings every week. I've seen some things I didn't like and saw some that I did. I do thank God for online meetings. I still love the literature and having some type of sponsor/guide relationship. I lately found more of my life answers in ACA 12 step. Meetings solely won't keep me sober but working a daily program will. I haven't thrown it all away but its not being misused either. Some ppl like the hierarchy and overall discourse of a meeting...I don't...there are many 12 step meetings of various kinds and how many are of quality? In all honesty I need to get a life and sadly 12 step fellowship is my medicine but not my whole life. I was deluded that it would give me a magical life...nope...just sober not a man of mystery and intrigue. Funny AA never told me it'd get me rich or in love or popular. Nope just sober...fair nuff.
I am a member. Umm, I hate to break this secret to you guys, but, God is within you, not outside. Even Joe and Charlie say it. AA and the bible both support this idea. "God is the great reality WITHIN US!" "God is in the heart, of every man" I have read those books the god delusion, even love watching Hitchens argue with christians on UA-cam. But every atheist argument defines God being in the clouds, so it really never has pertained to me. I have a bunch of evidence to suggest this was the message all along, but don't want to bore you. Look I seem to be able to see, hear and do things when I am listening and acting on the best version of myself, the goodness I can hear see and feel, or what I call God. Good luck guys! Sorry you couldn't do the math on this, I know they always want you to Journey to discover this secret, but anyway.
Patrick, I think it's great that you have a god of your understanding, as that which is deep within you. I also respect your experience. I just don't share it. Just because we express our experiences differently, doesn't make one person right and the other wrong. We are sharing experience. It's not about our failure to "do the math". I much, much prefer my view that there is nothing supernatural. There is no magic, no God. It's what we do and the people we allow in our lives that makes the difference, at least for me.
AA Beyond Belief I know you have a channel and are leading movement of sorts, so no minds will be changed. Just curious, have you ever thought about changing your definition of God? I mean you can obviously see that positive actions lead to positive outcomes? How is that not a spiritual belief of karma? When people normally meditate and feel they "receive guidance" are they getting that externally or internally? How is it that we know right from wrong almost without having to be told, they found it is mostly true in infants too. Just some thoughts to consider. Good luck to you.
Patrick P. What is your evidence that god is within us from page 55. Just because Bill, Joe and Charlie said it doesn't mean it's true. They believe it, and have faith, but faith is belief without evidence. The Bible says it. The bible also supports slavery read Colossians 3:22-24, Exodus 21:20-21, and alot of other barbaric rhetoric. And Evolution is a fact. I"m interested on your evidence.
Patrick. Thanks for saying that. It is what I think! It seems so simple - my reading of the God delusion was that R Dawkins and the religionists alike, have an odd idea of what God is. I had a problem at first as although I couldn't believe in religion dogmas/decrees I thought I might be struck down by the God I didn't believe in if I followed what I did actually believe. I find that supposed atheists have a rigid definition for the God that they don't believe in and use that as the basis for their supposed non-belief. Basically I just believe in kindness.
I went to AA for 10yrs and stayed sober, and felt great. I stopped going to Meetings within a very short time I started drinking again. I became a lying and just didn't like as I became the person I never thought I'd become. Back in the program & feel great again. The religion part in AA I found to be Take pr Leave it no pressure>
I always share that AA can help you with your drinking but other problems you will need to get help outside AA. There are meetings that are progressive and meetings (like down south) where it is dogmatic and beyond AA. It is suggested in their literature (Living Sober) that people attend one meeting a week after getting sober. This idea that one has to go to daily meetings for the rest of their lives is absurd it is reinforced by people who don't/can't get a life outside the rooms. That's OK the rooms make them useful but no need to go daily. The idea of attending one meeting a week is to live in the 12th step, you go there for others - spread the message of AA (and of course to reinforce the principles in yourself). Alcoholism doesn't go away there is no cure.
I know this video is a few years old but for many people AA is more harmful than anything. The fact that it’s held up as the best tool for recovery with a 8-10% success rate is ludicrous.
I have been attending these fellowship meetings for almost 3 months once a week. Done the steps, it has fucked my head up, the steps are complete rubbish, step 4,5 and 9 are the only ones worth doing. I have met some great people who are part of my support network, I love Buddhist philosophy, a bit of spirituality. I have a huge desire to stay away from drugs and I have a job I love and faith that a higher power is with me but that is not fucking god and I don't have to pray to it, praying shows a lack of faith and trust. I'm going to have a 2 week break from CA and see how I feel
Hi Jack, thanks for listeing. You know the 12 Steps aren't a requirement for recovery from addiction. They are nothing more than the written experience of some guys in the 1930's who found sobriety in a religious organization and then formulated their experience into steps. Basically, they did what you mentioned is working for you. They had people in their lives who supported them in their desire to stay sober. That is what I think works about the 12 Step programs. I can easily interpret the Steps in a way that makes sense for me, but even that is not necessary. Mix and match the incredible array of recovery options available today. SMART, Life Ring, podcasts and social media groups, books, etc. Finding outside counseling is good if you can afford it or finding a place that provides mental health services with fees based on a sliding scale. Regardless of your path, I wish you the very best. John Sheldon
@@BeyondBeliefSobriety thank you for responding John, really appreciate that and it has helped me more than you know. Thanks for providing a platform that I can imagine is helping many people.
Yes! Married a narcissist, conartist, almost ruined my life! I know they're everywhere? But, AA is a cesspool of narcissist creeps!! Safer ways to get and stay sober. 🙏💥💫💦
Man I love AA. So many friends in the program and we all share our experience, strength and hope. It's so nice to be able to help another alcoholic in person. Thank God for a way out of booze. I think people are just scared of the G (God) word. And to say it's brainwashing? Pretty sure you are in control of your own actions and beliefs. I'd rather go to meetings and talk about alcoholism then drink again any day.
Other choices? Like rehabs for the rest of your life which is what other people do and find out that doesn't work? No thanks. I already made a good choice and I haven't picked up any drug or drink since. What is your idea of "many choices". Hell I heard some woman say the only way to get sober is through Christ, lmao. That's why there several pastors that have given sermons drunk, and Christ didn't even work for them as a solution to drinking/drugging. Sorry to burst her bubble, but Christ will save your soul, not your ass. We live here on planet Earth, not in heaven. The help is on this planet, through other people. But I would like to hear your other choices.
Thwom...If you are doing so well why are you here so triggered? AA success rate is about 5% that puts them on par with many other programs like SMART or the Sinclair method or many others. I am not here to try to take your meetings away so what are you doing here? Obviously, something has you triggered, perhaps another searching and fearless moral inventory might bring to light that dark place that motivates your fear about other programs and methods.
Who said they have the only way? And SMART is only a fraction of the size of AA. AA is in 170+ countries around the world, with millions of members. People that talk shit about any recovery program are a joke. What works for you may not work for someone else. Get over yourself. Any program can work if you want it. And AA has a 100% success rate if you work it. If you don't, then of course you aren't a AA success, just like any other thing in this world. You have to work to be successful in case you didn't know!
OK. Listen, A.A.'s text is not SACRED. People in A.A. that I know don't regard the text as sacred, and certainly Bill Wilson, who WROTE the text, never claimed that he was divinely inspired and the text is inerrant.
I would have to let AA be my sound of reasoning to use this and it is not. AA is not my authority. My guess it is written to keep people in the group without any critical thinking. I have read it that's why I made this statement.
AA is an ok place to start but don't make it all your life, It's a good place to help you stay sober at first. The success rate is about 10% or less and some folks there don't truly believe in live and let live and if you don't fall in lockstep with them you get chastised. After 16 years in aa it just felt like a bunch of narcissistic a holes blowing smoke up each other's asses. There are some good people there but for the most part it's just a bunch of judgmental hypocrites who don't actually practice what's in the book. Then there folks who will 12 stomp newcomers and badger them before they can decide if AA is for them. Another thing I saw was folks sponsoring with very little time or still having difficulties in their own lives after many years any have no business playing the role of an advisor I'm so glad I left and am much happier not going. There's some great spiritual teachers on UA-cam like Sadhguru and Allen watts, two of my favorites. I guess the best advice I can give you about AA is be careful ! An ex AA friend of mine told me if I ever needed a resentment I could always go back! =)
AA is a community which a lot of people have never felt or belonged anywhere, and there are genuine people in the rooms that really want to help without thinking and there are so many benefits than non
people in CA were only friendly to me when i first came in. because they are told to help people to keep sober. most the time it is not out of love. nice talk.
I am not anti AA I just can't do it anymore. I believe in God however I don't believe God keeping people sober. To me it's just time to find a scientific way in treat alcoholism.
A scientific approach has already been worked on several times (SMART, sinclair method, etc). Its just that AA got its foot in the door first so its super culturally engrained that AA is what you do if you want to get sober. It doesnt help that many AA groups insist that you can't get sober without them and that courts use it as their de facto treatment.
💯 I enjoy SMART Recvory. I look at AA like something that could have been a great program. Yet, it never updated itself. Still giving the same information that only works for so few people
I’m 31 years sober, an atheist. I go to AA meetings in my neighborhood now daily, not for myself, but to find if there is an existing AA member I can help, or to welcome the new AA who is uncomfortable around religion. I am open in my rather traditional meeting so that the members can see that religion is not necessarily important.
Thank you. This was very refreshing to hear. I'm 5 years in recovery and I actively take people through the steps. I entered my first meeting with agnostic beliefs and through it all, it's why I'm an atheist today. 12 Step taught me not only to be emotionally honest but intellectually honest too.
Ive always had mixed feelings about AA. I love the idea of people getting together and venting about everyday problems....thats a simple way of getting therapy but I cant take the " GOD THIS and GOD THAT" Its sounds like a watered down version of some bible....which i have no interests in. I do agree there are sick and even sicker people in those rooms. There are also very nice people but its very cultish..... I just am not a fan of " DO WHAT WE DO AND SAY WHAT WE SAY and well hang out with you...Ive met nutcases and nice genuine people in those rooms...you have to have a filter and stay away form the crazies....some of those people are still sick even though they do not drink... and i know people that drink that are very kind...you have to choose in the end. The fact that there is no medical knowledge or research in the book is questionable....I think its an outdated book form the 30's. Yes alot of people need to get sober no doubt!
@@recoveringlibertarian5982try random kindness? Even if no one seems to appreciate it. I thought the same, then thought I have nothing to live for so will just look out for two or three useful or kind things to do in the world each day. I've been doing it years. It's actually something to live for - to me, only thing to live for really.
As I said in another thread, the definition of insanity is to make the same mistake and expect different results.....so even though you continue to relapse, keep coming back!!!! The irony.
It's funny Rob, but I totally never thought of that. We tell people who relapse to keep coming back when maybe we should be saying, have you tried something different? :) Good point.
My word, thankyou!! this is literally what I have been through for couple of years! Its so simple you could miss it. As much as I Appreciate a good cup. Of coffee, listening to shares and a chat and what the rooms have done for me in early days, I Think it's time to walk away and try a more scientific and healthy approach. I get this, your selfish you didn't contribute back... The thing is I tried to contribute to the point of codependant behaviour with others I'm a single mum I had to choose between AA and my children. The kids won because AA as they say is a selfish programme. There are many, many ways to recover from alcoholism! Intuition is a guiding force.
A very refreshing discussion about recovery, and about humanity. I am an atheist, albeit one who can still talk about G-d. Quite a bit. G-d is kind of like mothers... if it didn't exist, we'd have to invent it. And that is precisely what humans, have done, world-wide, from one culture to the next. The big step in human social development wasn't agriculture... it was culticulture. In some ways the concept of a G-d can be quite a useful one if it helps me get to a place where I am able to realize that my best thinking, my knowledge, my understanding is limited. As Sheldon Kopp states beautifully: "We must learn to live with in the ambiguity of partial freedom, partial power, and partial knowledge." (from his "Eschatological Laundry List"). I have no trouble imagining a higher power without it being G-d. My recovery from alcoholism and addiction to opiates started when I went to the hospital a year ago, and began a 7-day detoxification program, and signed up for rehab... that is when I met my higher power... On a Tuesday morning around 11:30 in early January 2020, as I was easing into my fifth day of a bender out of human proportion - at least 6 bottles of wine a day - I heard a noise from my back door and stirred from my spot on the couch, binge-drinking red wine while I was binge-watching the movie "Come Back, Little Sheba" on UA-cam [sic!]. The EMTs and police and security were there at my back door calling my name. Someone from my employer had called a wellness/welfare check on me. I'd not been to work for 6 days, and was not responding to email or phone calls. They were worried I might have died, and living alone, perished in my home. One of the EMTs put his hand on my shoulder and said: "It looks like you could use a little help, buddy. Karl, would you let us help you?" It turns out I'd been waiting for someone to ask. I couldn't ask for help myself, and I didn't know how I was going to get out of my misery, the shakes and tremors, the fear. Honestly, I would have welcomed death as readily as agents of recovery that morning. I said yes. I wept and asked them to help me. A week later, after I had celebrated my 56th birthday in a hospital bed, I spoke with the person who'd initiated the welfare check on me. I was very grateful. She said, she was just glad I'd said yes. That didn't compute for me. I was confused. Of course I said yes. What else could I have done? The jig was up. She said that actually, I could have said no. I could have said: "Leave me alone" ; "Go away" ; "I'm okay"... I was not violent, and had not committed violence on another or on myself. I had not threatened violence on myself or on another. I was not visibly suicidal, and I had the legal right to refuse treatment and assistance. Had they taken me against my will, and something had happened, that hurt me, or that could have hurt me, or just pissed me off... they were liable for that, potentially. It was a loophole I could have driven a hearse through... And, I knew nothing about it. So I left my home and went on a journey of recovery and self-help, with much assistance from medical personnel, therapeutic counselors, family, and friends. I have a lot, A LOT of education. I am a librarian. Knowledge and the pursuit of it is power, and the currency of my realm. But what saved my on January 14, 2020, was not what I knew, but what I did not know. I did not know that I could have continued drinking - I had more unopened bottles at my side. Don't know mind (Zen beginner's mind)... know we start from a place of unknowing. Forget your perfect learning.... my higher power is "Everything Karl does not know"... and that is a hell of a lot. I don't pray. It feels dishonest to me. Like putting on a mask, or drinking to forget... It is uncomfortable to hear so many pray around me... but I don't begrudge them that. I appreciate that some can and do find recovery from addiction on their knees. As I mentioned, I am a librarian. I research quotes a lot. It turns out many famous quotes were not said by the person to which the words are attributed. And, just because my higher power is what I don't know ... that does nothing to pull me away from the quest in the question, the search in the research. In the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous - specifically, in Appendix II - The Spiritual Experience, you'll find the following quotation: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation. -Herbert Spencer" - It turns out Herbert Spencer was not the originator of that concept - he wrote and said A LOT... but not that. (Read the story about it at "The Fix" www.thefix.com/content/contempt-prior-to-investigation-AA-Herbert-Spencer8042)... The idea is still a valid one. Don't prejudge something new or unknown to you until you've tried it... I just wish AA would honor that principle in all their affairs. There are no outside issues in the human experience of addiction. The major thing it gets right is that alcoholics can help each other... I am glad I have friends who have found recovery in the twelve steps. My path is a different one, but I love all the company...
That's the best UA-cam post I've ever seen... And I've seen a lot!! Good wishes to you. My concept of god is similar maybe. A sort of wistful, poetic, wry, inspired, awe and wonder sort of sense of the amazingness of life, the world, universe. ♥️
I've been sober in AA 19 years. It's black and white with me - I went from being a deranged person who traipsed around drinking outside half dressed in and out of blackout, or convinced I was dying when sober and that I had broken my brain, to a healthy person who appreciates every day and engages with the world everyday. Admittedly if you can do this without aa, then great. Maybe I could do without AA but I don't have any better thing to spend the time on (i.e. I work full time, run a lot of races, have small.time charitable involvement, see family, have an interest in science). I tried lots of stuff before AA (art, various groups) but deep down have never believed in anything as much as alcohol or AA, peace and kindness. Left to my own devices I drift into my own thoughts and isolate.
Please give me info on anything to research further or contacts. I too am in the middle like you and am currently breaking the break out of the fellowship. With 13 years continuous recovery clean time x
Hi Caroline. Please send me an email. My email address is john@aabeyonbelief.org. There are Facebook groups dedicated to people who had bad experiences with AA and stopped attending meetings. Jon Steewart, who's not anti-AA, but rather pro choice with recovery options has a blog "Leaving AA, Staying Sober. Here is the link: jonsleeper.wordpress.com/
Also let me just add that different programs work for different people. Don’t like AA? Okay, you can try to stay sober on your own. Even the AA book says that if you can stop or moderate on your own more power to you. People need to understand that you can’t really generalize anything. Some people need AA, some don’t. Maybe you’re not an actual alcoholic. Did you read the part in the book where it explains the different types of drinkers? And the fact that some people can just suddenly stop and they’re not real alcoholics? Basically, if you can stop on your own free will and not have a problem ever again, you’re not a real alcoholic. People that NEED AA are real alcoholics because they continue to deal with their problems with alcohol if they’re not reminded every day/week what they’re doing and what they should focus on. Congratulations on being sober but you can’t just generalize things and say “AA is this way.” Any organization known to man has different types of people. Different personalities, nice people, mean people, judgmental people, accepting people. It’s who you associate with and ultimately what YOU personally choose to do. AA makes it easier for certain people to stay sober, bottom line. It’s like saying Christianity or a certain religion is “wrong” or saying you’re “anti” that organization. Well, that would be a little closed minded, because what works for some people doesn’t necessarily work for everyone. You can’t say everyone’s brain is the same or everyone reacts to one thing the same way, or “this” works for everyone or “this” works for no one. You really can’t classify everyone’s brain because not one brain on this whole planet is the same. It’s like saying one race are all the same, or one gender is all the same, or one sexual orientation is all the same. There’s no sense to it, it’s just nonsense talk. Take care!
I’ve scrolled through lots of comments and I don’t see many, if any, “generalizing” AA. I do see a lot of people who have been in AA, including myself, who left due an apparent common thread amongst the organization as a whole. You’re accusing everyone of generalizing by using a generalization.
@@HexagonFL AA is very good at generalizing things though. It's in the writing. Go enough times and you might just believe what it says. At which point you better be careful about who you meet in the rooms cause they can do anything to you now and it WILL be your own damn fault.
I'm pretty OCD ,definitely wasn't caused by AA, could you not hand that over in same way as drinking 🙏 but if your happy and sober that's the main thing I think I've done step 1 and 2 Where else to go than As (Darwin ha ha I don't think it's true) CBT interesting (Really the doctor said!)
Yaweh is the Hebrew word for Jah or Jehovah. If you look at African buses you will see Jehovah graffitied on them. It's God's Name. Funny this was your last comment for an athiest. Get clear boys!
This is where im at with AA. It was working in the early stages but i felt like i had to keep swallowing chunks of information that 1) is saw my sponsor not practicing and 2) being the type of person who pulls things apart i found the things i was being asked to do were in conflict with my idea of a higher power. I think AA is great but is too rigid. I also dont like being made to feel guilty for not doing certain things. When i relapsed 2 people tried to phone me (though i knew about a hundred well) and when i come back i have to listen to lectures on how we must stick together and call each other often etc.
Here's an extract from aa pamphlet: Any concept of the Higher Power is acceptable. A skeptic or agnostic may choose to think of his Inner Self, the miracle of growth, a tree, man's wonderment at the physical universe, the structure of the atom, or mere mathematical infinity. Whatever form is visualized, the neophyte is taught that he must rely upon it and, in his own way, to pray to the Power for strength.
Although AA is another segment of society, we do learn to be around sober good people and now that courts send everyone to treatment then to AA. We outgrow and go beyond the dogma. Vipassana Meditation was a path of neutrality.
I recently went to my last meeting for good. I hadnt been in a while and felt like going to a meeting. Im four years sober and still going strong. At the end of the meeting an old timer, of course, walks up and says "Havent seen you so long I thought you were cured." I looked at him blankly and walked away. Not "hey great seeing you!", but a canned AA cliche designed to keep you in the rooms at all costs. Because if you arent sitting in that room, every week rain or shine, YOU should feel guilty. You should feel guilty for having no interest in listening to the same boring drunkalogue for the thousandth time. You should feel guilty for wanting to do something FUN on a saturday night. And you should feel guilty because you refuse to let some old timer (the guy who used to get thrown out of bars and killed a kid while driving drunk) tell you how to live your completely normal life. Stay guilty my friends!
Thanks for sharing this. I hate that about AA culture. We often assume that if someone isn't in meetings anymore that they must not be doing well. I've also seen people kind of shamed if they were gone for a while. Like almost accusing them of being a slacker or something. LIke you say, why not just say "hi, great to see you!".
I've changed my attitude completely. I realize that not everyone needs to go to AA for the rest of their lives, some only need or want meetings for a certain period of their life and then they move on. So, when I don't see people in meetings, I assume they are doing well, and what I am finding out more often than not... they are doing well!
AA Beyond Belief yhhjj
What a self centred mean spirited person you are...this is an organisation that helped to get you to where you are today....and instead of been gracious when an old timer reaches out to you...you make snide comments about him and project your own paranoia onto the AA.
cathal butler When a member of an organization is more interested in upholding their numbers rather than taking interest in you as a singular being, it is a telling sign that the organization, as a whole, doesn't truly care about you unless you're sober the way they think you should be. Life is lived outside the rooms.
If a person has PROGRESSED beyond the meetings, that doesn't mean they haven't been able to lay the foundation through the 12 Steps.
cathal butler Oh, and AA is a cult.
I left AA 20 years ago and I am still sober. 38 years now. I honestly believe if I would have stayed in AA I would be drunk or dead by now. To those who may be new to AA don't believe that AA is your last chance, it is not.
they make you believe that this is the only way... which gets me!
i am grateful because it did help me for the first couple of years is all but im coming to a different point in my recovery process... like i work a program that works for me yes. and if someone ever needed help i would be there to offer them the help 😁 for now i have tools lol
i just dont feel like they should shun my sobriety either... just because i am now working it differently than they do. place principles above personalities... right.... so at the end of the day i am still sober.. but shun me because im not attending meetings
Hi thankyou for this. I am struggling with the powerlessness stuff and leaving meetings feeling heavy depressed and wanting a drink. Hope that I will find another way like your self. Best wishes
@@Kate-vx7qh
Try SMART recovery or women for sobriety.
I went to 90 in 90 and then one meeting on my five year anniversary. I take personal inventory every day, I make amends when I'm wrong. Thank you AA for the lessons but the rooms aren't for me.
👍
I was an atheist court-ordered into this religious program. I am so glad I will never again have to listen to the same old crap week after week. One old man, several meetings a week, would remind the room that he had 27 years clean, before reiterating (probably for the thousandth time), "You all know that your BEST thinking earned you a seat in here!" while slowly scanning the room and making eye contact with every newcomer. I truly wanted to approach him and say, "No, it wasn't my best thinking that got me here. I don't think anyone does their best thinking when they're drunk or high on drugs, do you? I also don't think it means I should leave my logic stuck in the umbrella rack at the door when I walk in, or ignore the cognitive dissonance building due to the unhealthy ideas in this 'self-help' program." Currently almost two years clean off heroin WITHOUT AA / NA and enjoying life again.
They love that your best thought got you here shit fr
And this too will pass
Lol and they say the angry atheist is a myth
@@billharris1847 um... does anyone actually say that? Yes, some atheists are angry. Some of them have reasons.
@@mariaquiet6211
Put this as a comment to a thread
As a new comment it has no context
I quit AA, im over it. they say the "promised spiritual awakening will occur." if you work these 12 "simple" steps. You walk into AA recognizing you have a problem with alcohol, therefore you had power over it. Because you stopped drinking. So you were never powerless in the first place.
Space Ghost, In that case, all one has to do is not drink, but AA dogma comes with a truck load of other stuff. Like step 3 we made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of god as we understood HIM. Now, if you are one who believes that a lamp or a doorknob can be your higher power how does that work?
And how does one seek through prayer and meditation (for many its prayer and medication), a conscious contact with a doorknob or a lamp.
Asserting that anything can be your higher power is a cop-out. AA has definite religious dogma and they obviously are not talking about a doorknob in the book "Came to Believe" which is AA approved literature. So let's not pretend here.
Also, why would you capitalize a noun? It's like writing a sentence about coffee and using an uppercase letter ie; Dennis really loves Coffee and dogs. Subtle but with repetition the message gets through. You must believe in a god with human like traits, one who answers prayers. Can a doorknob answer prayers or restore you to sanity? I think not but then again maybe my sanity has been restored and that's why I left AA.
Dennis AA is a Nut house for 5yr old insane babys! and they are full of fucking shit! believe me.
@@denniswinn9412 Bravo!!
Recovery, even benevolent secular recovery, generally should be like training wheels: there when you need it, especially early on, but gradually more and more unnecessary as you gain time, experience and confidence in yourself. Addiction is simply a very powerful habit and once we retrain our brains through work and practice to respond differently we have less need for constant support. From my experience recovery was a 2 part process: recovery from alcohol addiction and then recovery from recovery towards reintegrating into society simply as a non-drinker.
zyxwut321 Very well said. That is exactly how I feel today. Recovering from recovery and learning to just be a sober guy in the real world.
Spiritual sickness is delusional.
Six years sober. Was very involved in AA. Chaired meetings, was on the intergroup, has sponsees. Left after 3 years for a lot of reasons people in this thread have mentioned.
AA is not the be all end all. It helped me get on the right track but it just wasn’t for me in the end. One of the final straws for me was when someone told me that me going to my kids soccer games (on a meeting night at my home group) wouldn’t keep me sober. Yupppp seems like I was the one with my principles straight and he needed to check his personality.
That's just down right low blow below the belt. Any addiction including Alcoholism needs a lot of social support besides going for any treatment and programs. Spending time with yr son, enjoying the company of loved ones and friends is one of the pillars to end any addiction. And i am not even an American.
You have to live by your own judgement/conscience, and be strong in what you actually believe, and feel free to disregard other people's opinions about your life if you believe in what you are doing. You are allowed to disagree with people (in or out of AA) and not take their words to heart. I've been lectured and disapproved of several times in AA but don't feel the need to explain myself. Like you said..... their problem rather than yours, or at least their opinion that you just don't agree with
@@macrick you just have to go with what you believe is best. I have known people not come to meetings specifically to stay at home with family who have ended up using and losing family etc. No black and white rule. Worth weighing up ourselves and going by our own conscience, which is all anyone can do really (well, I suppose some people might be submissive and do what they think people expect of them, which won't work happily I don't think, not for long anyway)
@@stubdo16 I would just say that it’s the culture of AA. “This is the solution” and if you don’t do that solution then you’re destined to get drunk again.
@@jamesssss621 some people in aa can be like that, granted. I don't see it much in England, but then again I take what people say with a pinch of salt. I think that is more human nature rather than AA culture. (Assuming you are from U S A)... Would Republican Party hq have leaflets giving a balanced view on Democrat and Communist parties, and saying that potential Republicans may wish to consider what other parties, or mix their ideologies? Not likely. But AA literature itself is much more enlightened and open minded than what some people may say. Especially podium show offs and bossy controllers. AA big book: "if he is sincerely interested and wants to see you again,
ask him to read this book in the interval. After doing
that, he must decide for himself whether he wants to go
on. He should not be pushed or prodded by you, his
wife, or his friends. If he is to find God, the desire must
come from within.
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or
prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him
to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly
on God; we merely have an approach that worked with
us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in com-
mon and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly.
Let it go at that." I think that it means that. The only point of AA is for people to be happy and healthy, not to adhere to some AA ideology for the sake of it
I'm seven years out now, emailed Jon eight years ago and he was very supportive and helpful.
Still have friends inside the fellowship, but am happy I made the move.
At this point, I've been in AA for a year and I will be 1 year sober at the end of may. Last night, right after I shared in front of a group, it finally hit: I need to leave AA ASAP! It feels like I'm in a narcissistic relationship. I feel trapped, held back by people constantly looking for validation and expecting me to ask for theirs. I love many people I've met in these meetings and I'm grateful I got their help, but I need to step out. I need to move on with life.
Same feeling here! ❤
@@Healinglove Do it. Walk away. 🫵🏻
Promess yourself to go back if you feel like drinking again.
I don’t regret leaving and haven’t felt like drinking any more or less since.
@@guillaumebousquet5138 , I will go back if I feel like drinking again. Honestly, over memorial day, I drank heavily, after being 10 year's sober, BIT, it was my choice; I was fully aware of what I was about to go do. I haven't drNk since. I'm thankful to aa for being there for me in the beginning, was very helpful, I don't feel this way any longer.
@@guillaumebousquet5138 , may I ask what you do to keep sober? 🥰
@@Healinglove Of course you can ask. My favorite technique is to make sure everything I put in my mouth is alcohol-free. Questions?
There is a tremendous rejection to growth in AA.
Wouldn't say AA is totally useless. but the literature is clad in 1930s evangelion christinity mindset. Hence, you're right.
What growth?
@macrick Christianity doesn't teach in a 'God of your understanding', that's universalism. Bill Wilson performed seances and played with a Oujia board as well as 13 stepped women.
@catherinecooper8370 It's 100% influenced by evangelical Christianity. It's the same as with Mormonism; they added their own spin to it but that doesn't mean it's not heavily influenced by Christianity.
I’m on the cusp of leaving. I am not leaving entirely out of resentment, but I don’t like the way they teach you not to trust your inner self and intuition. That you’re independent thought is diseased thinking, your doubt and questioning is rooted in sickness.
I also forced friendships with a lot of people. I never felt like I found my people, like young women working towards a new life with goals and ambitions and living healthy in most ways. It’s my non NA friends who are like that.
I am checking out Recovery Dharma because I am a practicing Buddhist and want to find others I can relate with rather than people who say they love you but don’t even think about sending you a card on your birthday.
My sobriety date is 2008. I found myself becoming angry and resentful in meetings and really forcing myself to participate. I didn't want to go out of obligation fear or guilt. Every now and again I'll stop in but I'm really just making myself sit there. After a number of years I've seen people get sober leave meetings and just build their lives with other things then recovery. It's a really weird place to be right? I just can't do meetings anymore.
Hiya. I dont attend AA anyone I find it apoling how people are treated at the place. Fake people living fake lifes....oh yeah and having fake friends. The only time I feel like using is when iv been around the phoney liars and their discussions behaver. I have watched pretty woman being shunned out of the program because they are pretty confident and Beautyful. Forces have horrible lifes using because the are jealous. Iv seen woman pretend they are the answers to every other womans problems so they can collect sponsess like throphys. Also if witnessed woman being forsed to disclose details about their life In meetings where it can place them in more harm. The culture is all wronge. I would once apon a time. Thought I had a resentment towards these woman and I would of took the higher moral ground and prayed for them. But I think these poor girls need more that prayers their are actually bring bated and exploited for entertainment and approval. Poor girls who come at a last chance to get help. Yeah people do get well but what about the girls that dont or men....I suppose we should just pray for them too 😜 it is a joke! I see peole commenting the most silliest things under reasonable points of view......I cant wait for the rescueing people to comment back sayying allsorts of creepy responses save your own comments for your self and your sponsees who need your help!!!! Happy joyuse and free and still opinionated.
I haven't been to a meeting in a long time. But have cautiously thought of going to one recently. I miss the camaraderie/fellowship, but not the dogma and toxic gaslighting of the program.
A quote from the big book of AA "Resentment is the number one offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else". How many triggered AA people on this thread will admit they have a resentment against people who speak out against AA?
I got your (AA) number I got your (AA) dogma, I know your ( AA) program you can save your shame for the newcomers, they will take it, I won't.
Well said!! I feel/think the same way.
Boom!
It’s gross because it’s normal to feel resentment against someone who has violated you; they shame and blame sexual assault survivors. They protect sex offenders. That’s why I left. Cutting toxic people out is better than losing resentment. It’s normal yo feel resentment if you have been wronged. AA is toxic positivity.
they are very afraid and resentful of anyone who says anything that's deemed as critical of AA or anyone in it.
they have no understanding or empathy or compassion patience or tolerance, for anyone who leaves and talks of there true expierance of it ,they dont understand that some who leave need help to overcome things such as fears about leaveing, further help that is not AA, trauma they may have ended up with from going there ,or being abused in there by other members, or to share with others so they can get rid of resentments. AA tells people to share there resentments..AA tells people to be honest ,but gets upset when people are honest.
I left a.a about 5 year ago many of the people I meet there stop talking me I'm talking people that where my friends for most 17 years .that best decision I ever made .thanks to you tube after washing documentaries on what is a cult I'm also a atheist when I finally become honest with myself.
the 12 steps work well for sorting out some things, but the meetings and some of the fellowship has ,in some areas gotten most definitely cult like and destructive.
at the very least its a reshaping of the junior high experience. Putting other drunks on a pedestal, worshiping them ,clamoring for validation etc, a bit creepy.
It was a cult from the very beginning. Read the US of AA. Marty Mann.
great show. I can relate to a lot. I'm an atheist too, staying sober without AA 🖒
Thank you very much for listening Brandon. Jon is a very interesting and intelligent person, and this has been our most popular podcast episode.
You can be anything in AA, including atheist or agnostic.
@@stonecold5373 I am not sure why people like to group agnostics with atheists. There not the same. Agnostics are more in line with believers. My experience was quite different. I was rejected by the group for not having a belief. I have got sober with the 12 steps and have avoided the "fellowship". I had even been threatened by a christian zealot not to come back or else. The oldtimers who were the base leaders never once intervene. So my experience is in direct contradiction with your statement. Like religion, critical thinking is out the window here too.
.
I got sober with the 12 steps. The fellowship was absolutly full of bat shit crazies. My sponsor said get sober and get out of here. it's a religion unto itself. Im sober because of 12 steps, I'd be drunk if I had stayed. Being an atheist made the steps challenging the fellowship made them impossible.
Bravo
Made it out of the CULT
AA's twelve step process allowed me to write down the jumbled mess that was my perception of my life story. just writing it out and sharing it with someone gave me great relief. I gained a new perspective on my history. Things happen, that's life. Things don't happen to me. The entire 12 step process changed my life forever. Basically, I have nothing to drink over. I only drank to gain relief from my memories. I do pray, but I'm not sure if anything hears it. I hear it and it helps me. My prayers are all of thanks and for acceptance of the way each day goes. AA saved my life and offers hope for people who have none left. God or no God, without hope alcoholics have not much to live for except the next bottle.
This is great! Thanks for sharing this wonderful discussion. I live in small town and wish there were more secular groups like Agnostica or beyond belief. I have recently removed myself from my home group. Currently looking for secular alternatives in my area.
People claim that in AA a doorknob can be your higher power. How does that jibe with " We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with god as we understood HIM praying only for knowledge of HIS will for us and the power to carry that out? What do you suppose a doorknob's will for you might be?
Also, how does one go about improving a conscious contact with a doorknob?
to turn the handle and open the door hahaha idk
When I came into AA I had no concept of a higher power. I only related to a damning god learned thru religious exploration. I listened to an "old timer" who said," pick anything to pray too. He suggested a door knob. Not asking questions, desperate for a solution I prayed to a door knob. I just pictured a door knob when I prayed, asking for a solution to stay sober and some serenity. Just going through this action, without really believing in anything, helped me to become open to a higher power. My thoughts of desperation and hopelessness were replaced with thoughts of hope and serenity. It took a while, but I finally came to a place were it didn't really matter how I got here, It just mattered that I was out of the darkness and and had a purpose. I realize now the door knob was just something I could focus on to quiet the chatter in my mind trying to convince me to give up. We all have different ways of contacting our higher power. The door knob is just something easy to imagine till you find your own way. When you are living a life without direction, sometimes its better to follow a plan that has worked for others that have had success.
The doorknob idea is stupid
And using a person is dangerous
Father Martin is a non drinker who has some insight and I agree with the idea of having the entirety of the AA community is a useful beginning
Thank you for this honesty. So many people needs this, thousands...
How I became the stop drinking expert was firstly I went to rehab and whilst in there getting a bit of time up without using any drugs or alcohol I realised I can actually live life without this crap and a dam good life also. No more hang overs feeling like shit having to apologize to everyone for my behaviour the night before no having to be around people that use abuse lie steal and cheat of you.. Thank God..
I don't even do meetings because there is too many dickheads in the rooms.. You can do this also don't give up.. Peace Freedom Love..
I had poor boundaries and self esteem when I was young. They told me that I faced institutions or death if I left. But not a cult.
Don't do AA until you hit Rock bottom or you will end up in a Nut house.
For me I need the fellowship of the meetings. I drift without it. I am no religious fanatic and I enjoy secular AA, but the main thing for me is to tolerate anything that keeps anyone sober. When I first saw 1000 slogans on the wall, I assessed most of them as stupid. However I came to realize that if any quote , tenet , idea, or delusion was helping anyone then I didn't want to ruin it for them.
The normal people are who drive me effing crazy and meetings where speaking and listening in a group that don't judge is essential for me
Sorry, but alkies aren't some special breed of humans. Were all normal ppl!! Join a book reading group if u need companionship outside of bar rooms?
OK well Im very late in listening to this, I know its been 6 years but I found it still relevant. At 33 years sober I stopped the meetings right around the Covid outbreak, ironically it wasn't Covid but it was being honest about my dis-belief in any higher power. I had quit meetings for about a year and decided to give a try again only to find it had digressed more into god talk. This was a great listen and I found many similarities to my story. I don't bash AA, it was good while I was drying out but, it had become stale and I needed more. I've since jumped into exploring secular Buddhism and Stoic philosophy , so I really appreciates hearing that Bill said "any therapy is good", I agree. Being sober has become about exploring my mind and my dis-ease.
This was one of our earlier episodes and has been among the more popular. I'm glad you found our channel and that this episode spoke to you.
I always find this talk interesting and listen from time to time. I don't quite get it as my experience of AA has been throwing out any guilt I had about my lack of belief in Jesus prior to AA, and throwing out whole chunks of superstitious belief I never was brave or honest enough to admit I didn't believe. AA was founded on the basis that it is a god our own conception. Abstract, non-supernatural conceptions are fine. If someone does have some supernatural power I leave them to it. Whatever works for them as long as it is not forced into anyone else.
And I totally agree with people trying the cravings drugs and other agencies before AA. AA is a last resort to me. I tried the Samaritans, psychiatrists, rehab etc. Before i ever considered Aa. My relationship with aa is down to my own understanding of the AA big book and my own abstract concept of a god which required me to drop my strong belief in my concept of the god I didn't actually believe in. I swapped it for what I do believe in - peace, the amazing fact of being alive in the light of knowing I will go back to what I was before being born, and appreciating daily life and thinking I might as well be a bit kind and pleasant when the opportunity arise. I have never been able to stomach religion or people in AA telling me what to do. I searched inside myself to what I really believed. I only learned to do this in AA.
Hey - sorry that I am kind of late but I just found your videos lately - I´m still grateful for all those videos about leaving AA. Over here in Germany - ex-members are still not ready to open up about all that crap which has happened in those cult meetings of AA . Went in there in Jan. 99 and within a year I became sick and tired about those nasty behaivor against the new AA members especially - too many gossip girls around me - with lots of narc. abuse incl. lovebombing at the very start but pretty soon it switched into very much control and manipulation - if you are atheist or agnostic there is lots of religious bs within those steps and the program - lots of devout churchgoers who want to take control about what you believe or have faith in....´how often you do come into those meetings - and kind of controlling about your private life - gossip girls all around, a strange woman offers you her sponsorship and little later start to tell you - how to live your life - they don´t want newcomers to go and see a therapist when they do suffer about childhood trauma and alcohol was just one way to compensate your pains inside of you. Those meeting were very much like being in a strange kind of cult - just like being in a strange kind of fundamental bible freak community. Without ever going back to AA I did stay sober until today. Thank you very much for all those videos from different ex-members of AA cult.
I left after 13 years. I was disappointed with people and there was always the god thing making me feel an outsider and like I couldn't work a "good" program. I have now come back at 44 years and testing the waters. Oddly, I have yet to find someone with longer sobriety than me. P.S. I heard Clancy in one of his last speaking engagements.
I can’t get over the old timers egotistical righteousness, I’ve been told what to say and not what to say while sharing back !! If you can be a robot without emotions or passion or truth then you’ll do well in AA
I still go just to see the old timers try to understand how I’ve managed to not relapse 😂 that’s what really keeps me sober 😆
An old timer on his 2nd relapse since I joined asked me a question about my "rock bottom" and I responded in a few sentences and then he edited my response admonishing me for dwelling in it. I have a dozen or so other instances that baffled me and I was only in AA for a little over 90 days. I am still deprogramming more than a month later.
I wish you would do the topic of the coin. It means nothing. Is it an aa idol? Helping people not drink has nothing to with a coin, used to recognize sobtiety. Being sober not counting the days but making changes so you don't pick up a drink to solve things and what your life looks like. Such as how you treat other's, a work ethic, being resonsible. THE COIN Is Used for a symbol of hierarchy in the membership. Its like believing in santa claus. It only works if you believe in the idea. All ideas or beliefs dont work all the time or people can not always follow a mindset perfectly. A learning curve of failures happens to sucess. Most experience this. That's why sobriety countdowns get down to 1 guy after decades. It shows people mostly are not sucessful.
No way can you figure percentages of an anonymous balances. Anonymity is over with all the new ways of sharing ideas with the internet.
When you know what your primary purpose is, other things will not bother you.
Glad to see him back at the daily show!
I am just starting my journey and going to AA meetings and SMART Recovery online plus handbook. I consider myself an atheist and reject any prescribed religion or god. However, I do believe in a creative force of the universe. As humans our minds have conscious and subconscious elements. My problems stem from living in my conscious and ignoring my sub-conscious and connection to the universe. I have been too self-centred and egotistical focusing on wants and desires. For me to address my drinking problem I need to address these issues. I was very skeptical about AA at first but do find that I look forward to going and hearing people with similar problem really helps. SMART makes alot of sense but online meetings i don't feel connection. CBT makes alot of sense in addressing thought patterns but to truly address my issue I need to address my subconscious issues. Depending on how I go and how comfortable I find longterm abstinence, I may try Sinclair Method in future to address the biochemical aspect. In summary I think my drinking is first caused by an unhappiness/dissatisfaction in myself followed by learned behaviour and biological triggers to alcohol after years of drinking.
I would say that as humans we all have similar experiences. I had greater success with DBT. and group therapies. AA becomes a religion if you stay long enough. Get sober , geta a life and move on.
Been kicked out of a daily meeting...because of relapse, and well intentioned but slightly ‘offbeat’ shares. I don’t like it, instinctively. Some of the readings, the ‘Just for Today’, are lovely. ‘Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change..’ Brill. ....Also the text is sexist...
I don't know what to do anymore. 7 years in and around aa, 13 treatments, migrating from alcohol to opiates, tried some smart recovery, at least I think I tried, tried spirituality, I'm hitting the wall.
Try something new different and interesting to you 7 is different reality sets back In pink cloud is over highest point in recovery is between 6+7 nothing at all wrong with you just another readjustment keep following your heart find out more of who you are and what you want out of life you didn't get that far by being a loser you're not you're still a leader even if you done with everything that came before personally I like Jordan Peterson he knows us and probably is one of us of course he can't really say so because of traditions keep expanding your version of spiritual experience or try something new I like psychology but also see scripture differently been a member since 89 doing ok lots of different versions of me all promises are true but aspects can't really be communicated until you have the experience yourself same thing different day nothing I can tell you that you don't already know. What would you tell someone like you? I hope this helps. Keep trudging.
@@ericbigelow6083 I never completed amends, so, in fairness, I haven't done all the steps. Gonna' take a crack at it with new sponsor who practices a form of Buddhist meditation, ZaZen, not sure if I spelled that right. We read scripture as well.
Polysubstance group structure socialise 🙏
Try working out . That release endorphins and is healthy!
thank you and Jon very much. great to hear progressive and open discussion of recovery.
after 67 years on the planet (this time) 50 + years of drinking and over 42 years in the drug culture, I am eternally grateful to AA for having been a step along my spiritual path. Active in the program for 13 months of effortless, flawless recovery. IMHO due predominately to my attention to the bio-chemical aspect of diet and nutrition ala (Get sober, stay sober, Cynthia Perkins)
thanks again for your interview.
In Lak'ech
I love AA and the fellowship. In from 1976. Its awesome in saving the life of chronic alcoholics. Can be very spiritual if that's what you want. peace.
AA is groups of individuals who find others with similar issues and use the program to adapt to a HP to there betterment. It has changed as the strength of sober clear thinking people as yourselves are free to chose your path. AA helped me to get and remain sober for 21 years with similar alcoholics and addicts and we develop friendships with like thinking. . I am curious why the only requirement to have your own meeting is to find 2or 3 and a kettle or water cooler is available to whom wishes to do so, We have a variety of groups in a small country with many different ideas and interpretations of what we each like and remain faithful to our group irregardless how American AA try's to impose its will, and therefore individuals slowly remain sober , respecting your choices and anyone else's as long as sobriety is the outcome.We are trusted servants with no bosses ,my favorite .
Andrew WADMAN Where are you from Andrew?
Would not be a learning experience to be around people who do not think like you? or them?
My counselor at my methadone clinic was pushing AA on me cause I'll be off soon and he thought I needed it. Does he get brownie points or something for pushing it? lol. Then the jackass leaves cause he got inherited a bunch of money. So all that for what? I already was in AA years ago and couldn't stand the hypocritical horseshit. As soon as you question anything they jump down your throat and think your gonna relapse. I call it the 1930's way to get sober. It'll fall by the wayside and basically be there just for the real crazies and people who want to continue like their poor choices are a disease. My counselor told me it was my job as a younger person to try and update the program...lol. Then he leaves and all his AA pushing bullshit and me going to those meetings was for nothing.
It's funny how atheists see that problem that they cannot be honest about their belief. Me being a born again Christian and having part of AA I couldn't be honest about my belief as I was immediately judged. Either you make up your own idea of a God or you seem to have to become a hypocrite which to me clearly contradicts the principal of honesty in step 1.
And just one more thing... (Columbo is my recovery mascot)... I could not do what I am doing for myself, if I weren't around others like me. I need a community. We all do. My primary mindfulness practice is something called "mindful self-compassion" - look it up - it's a heart-centered version of MBSR - mindulness based stress reduction - that has three components: mindfulness, self-compassion, and common humanity (aka community). MSC helps me treat myself with the same compassion I would show anyone else who suffers from alcoholism... it's like filling up your love tank... and like the flight attendant says - in the case of cabin decompression, before you try to help someone else, PUT YOUR OWN MASK ON FIRST... turns out that hypoxia is pretty deadly. So is the lack of self-compassion. I learn it when I see people helping themselves in recovery, TO recovery. There is an endless supply of it. We can't run out. And we must SHOW UP to get our plate filled. I am not so worried as I used to be. In the past year I have survived alcohol poisoning, addiction to opiates, delerium tremens, withdrawal, COVID-19 restrictions on connection and imposed isolation (in the space where I did so much damage to myself), the death of my mother to COVID-19, a change in employment status that I was not 100 percent sure of or prepared for, and Zoom everything, work, recovery meetings, medical appointments, teletherapy, and telechurch... . You know, it's all going to be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end (pace Sonny in Best Exotic Marigold Hotel, and Billy Graham "read the last page of the Bible")... And recovery is not a destination... it is a path. where are we going? I DON'T KNOW.... and that's more than okay. I am amazed at all of this. I see friends with decades of recovery, holding on to one another in Zoom... yes, they'd rather be in a dingy church room with bad coffee, fluorescent lights and folding chairs... But I share with them... this is amazing. I am at home at 11 am and I am not drinking. I am in a recovery meeting... it's happening here, in my home... this isn't the scene the crime any longer. It's a temple of recovery. And I can see you, your cat, your unmade bed, your star wars background (mine is the Wizard of Oz), and that is a hell of a lot more than we would have shared "in the rooms"... I found Refuge Recovery in the Zooms. I found recovery mentors in Zooms, and on Facebook. And I found a changed attitude too. One like the day Ebenezer Scrooge awakens to on Christmas morning... I am as light as a feather, as happy as an angel, as merry as a schoolboy, and yes, as giddy as a drunken man. www.pagebypagebooks.com/Charles_Dickens/A_Christmas_Carol/Stave_5_The_End_of_It_p1.html - pink cloud? nah. in the pink of life.
Very interesting conversation. Thank you. I'm looking a group to join to help me stay sober. I need help...badly.
Can someone link me the blog for john stewart
I’m going to a meeting to fill a void and remind myself not to drink. I don’t obsess about the other stuff
I take issue with the fact that you said “AA is so successful”. That’s not true. AA is hugely unsuccessful.
They do have AA Agnostica and Freethinkers mtgs in large metro areas, but not many. And in rural areas - forget it. What I do is just let the Jesus speak go in one ear and out the other. And occasionally, if I'm feeling rebellious, I will mention I don't believe in God at a meeting. Sadly though, they'll usually be some old timer that gives you the evil eye if you say the word atheist. I tried starting an agnostic meeting and the central office allowed it, but gave us Wed night at 930 and it caved because not enough people came. But I know we're out there.
Shiawasenaneko 'Central office' doesnt have jurisdiction over when you can or cannot have a meeting or what theme you want. You do not need 'their' approval. Admittedly its better to work things through smoothly. Go low key and see what happens. Where I live i feel everyone cringe a bit if someone goes on about Jesus. I think that by saying the 'J ' word people get some sort of power boost or kudos (or notoriety). Doesn't need to be a big deal though. I refer to god/higher power in my shares happily but am not religious. After a few years of fretting about terminology i got used to it all and know what it means to me. In terms of meeting time/theme Every group is automonous etc, aa shall not be organized etc.. Read the traditions in 12 steps 12 traditions. All members are equal regardless of anything and are not governed or controlled. For a group purpose the ultimate authority is a loving god as he may express himself in your group conscience...
I think the problem is ppl are asking too much of 12 step fellowships. I don't think that's its healthy to go 5 times a day forever. I also think that half measures avail you nothing. I find it all very relative. Some ppl don't fit into group meetings every week. I've seen some things I didn't like and saw some that I did. I do thank God for online meetings. I still love the literature and having some type of sponsor/guide relationship. I lately found more of my life answers in ACA 12 step. Meetings solely won't keep me sober but working a daily program will. I haven't thrown it all away but its not being misused either. Some ppl like the hierarchy and overall discourse of a meeting...I don't...there are many 12 step meetings of various kinds and how many are of quality? In all honesty I need to get a life and sadly 12 step fellowship is my medicine but not my whole life. I was deluded that it would give me a magical life...nope...just sober not a man of mystery and intrigue. Funny AA never told me it'd get me rich or in love or popular. Nope just sober...fair nuff.
I am a member. Umm, I hate to break this secret to you guys, but, God is within you, not outside. Even Joe and Charlie say it. AA and the bible both support this idea. "God is the great reality WITHIN US!" "God is in the heart, of every man" I have read those books the god delusion, even love watching Hitchens argue with christians on UA-cam. But every atheist argument defines God being in the clouds, so it really never has pertained to me. I have a bunch of evidence to suggest this was the message all along, but don't want to bore you. Look I seem to be able to see, hear and do things when I am listening and acting on the best version of myself, the goodness I can hear see and feel, or what I call God. Good luck guys! Sorry you couldn't do the math on this, I know they always want you to Journey to discover this secret, but anyway.
Patrick, I think it's great that you have a god of your understanding, as that which is deep within you. I also respect your experience. I just don't share it. Just because we express our experiences differently, doesn't make one person right and the other wrong. We are sharing experience.
It's not about our failure to "do the math". I much, much prefer my view that there is nothing supernatural. There is no magic, no God. It's what we do and the people we allow in our lives that makes the difference, at least for me.
AA Beyond Belief I know you have a channel and are leading movement of sorts, so no minds will be changed. Just curious, have you ever thought about changing your definition of God? I mean you can obviously see that positive actions lead to positive outcomes? How is that not a spiritual belief of karma?
When people normally meditate and feel they "receive guidance" are they getting that externally or internally? How is it that we know right from wrong almost without having to be told, they found it is mostly true in infants too.
Just some thoughts to consider. Good luck to you.
Patrick P evolution, mate. It all just evolved
Patrick P. What is your evidence that god is within us from page 55. Just because Bill, Joe and Charlie said it doesn't mean it's true. They believe it, and have faith, but faith is belief without evidence. The Bible says it. The bible also supports slavery read Colossians 3:22-24, Exodus 21:20-21, and alot of other barbaric rhetoric. And Evolution is a fact. I"m interested on your evidence.
Patrick. Thanks for saying that. It is what I think! It seems so simple - my reading of the God delusion was that R Dawkins and the religionists alike, have an odd idea of what God is. I had a problem at first as although I couldn't believe in religion dogmas/decrees I thought I might be struck down by the God I didn't believe in if I followed what I did actually believe. I find that supposed atheists have a rigid definition for the God that they don't believe in and use that as the basis for their supposed non-belief. Basically I just believe in kindness.
Jon is a great guy and I think is very important that he does this .
Thank you for visiting. I like Jon too and I respect his work. I consider him a friend of mine and also of AA Beyond Belief.
Glad he made it out of the Cult of AA
I went to AA for 10yrs and stayed sober, and felt great. I stopped going to Meetings within a very short time I started drinking again. I became a lying and just didn't like as I became the person I never thought I'd become. Back in the program & feel great again. The religion part in AA I found to be Take pr Leave it no pressure>
I always share that AA can help you with your drinking but other problems you will need to get help outside AA. There are meetings that are progressive and meetings (like down south) where it is dogmatic and beyond AA. It is suggested in their literature (Living Sober) that people attend one meeting a week after getting sober. This idea that one has to go to daily meetings for the rest of their lives is absurd it is reinforced by people who don't/can't get a life outside the rooms. That's OK the rooms make them useful but no need to go daily. The idea of attending one meeting a week is to live in the 12th step, you go there for others - spread the message of AA (and of course to reinforce the principles in yourself). Alcoholism doesn't go away there is no cure.
I know this video is a few years old but for many people AA is more harmful than anything. The fact that it’s held up as the best tool for recovery with a 8-10% success rate is ludicrous.
10% is being generous too lol. I've mostly seen the recovery rate listed at 5%.
Depite the best efforts of the members I never felt I fit in. Just to much stop thinking and just do it talk for me.
I have been attending these fellowship meetings for almost 3 months once a week. Done the steps, it has fucked my head up, the steps are complete rubbish, step 4,5 and 9 are the only ones worth doing. I have met some great people who are part of my support network, I love Buddhist philosophy, a bit of spirituality. I have a huge desire to stay away from drugs and I have a job I love and faith that a higher power is with me but that is not fucking god and I don't have to pray to it, praying shows a lack of faith and trust. I'm going to have a 2 week break from CA and see how I feel
Hi Jack, thanks for listeing. You know the 12 Steps aren't a requirement for recovery from addiction. They are nothing more than the written experience of some guys in the 1930's who found sobriety in a religious organization and then formulated their experience into steps.
Basically, they did what you mentioned is working for you. They had people in their lives who supported them in their desire to stay sober. That is what I think works about the 12 Step programs.
I can easily interpret the Steps in a way that makes sense for me, but even that is not necessary.
Mix and match the incredible array of recovery options available today. SMART, Life Ring, podcasts and social media groups, books, etc. Finding outside counseling is good if you can afford it or finding a place that provides mental health services with fees based on a sliding scale.
Regardless of your path, I wish you the very best.
John Sheldon
@@BeyondBeliefSobriety thank you for responding John, really appreciate that and it has helped me more than you know. Thanks for providing a platform that I can imagine is helping many people.
Your supposed to help the next guy once you get sober. You got sober there.
It’s interesting to me that you haven’t commented or liked anything on this video in 4 years (one year after you posted it.) You still alive?
AA is a Narcissists School.
Yes! Married a narcissist, conartist, almost ruined my life! I know they're everywhere? But, AA is a cesspool of narcissist creeps!! Safer ways to get and stay sober. 🙏💥💫💦
Man I love AA. So many friends in the program and we all share our experience, strength and hope. It's so nice to be able to help another alcoholic in person. Thank God for a way out of booze. I think people are just scared of the G (God) word. And to say it's brainwashing? Pretty sure you are in control of your own actions and beliefs. I'd rather go to meetings and talk about alcoholism then drink again any day.
Thwom...I am sorry that you can only see two choices when there are so many.
Other choices? Like rehabs for the rest of your life which is what other people do and find out that doesn't work? No thanks. I already made a good choice and I haven't picked up any drug or drink since. What is your idea of "many choices". Hell I heard some woman say the only way to get sober is through Christ, lmao. That's why there several pastors that have given sermons drunk, and Christ didn't even work for them as a solution to drinking/drugging. Sorry to burst her bubble, but Christ will save your soul, not your ass. We live here on planet Earth, not in heaven. The help is on this planet, through other people. But I would like to hear your other choices.
Thwom...If you are doing so well why are you here so triggered? AA success rate is about 5% that puts them on par with many other programs like SMART or the Sinclair method or many others.
I am not here to try to take your meetings away so what are you doing here? Obviously, something has you triggered, perhaps another searching and fearless moral inventory might bring to light that dark place that motivates your fear about other programs and methods.
Yeah, it is funny when anyone says they have the only way, I agree.
Who said they have the only way? And SMART is only a fraction of the size of AA. AA is in 170+ countries around the world, with millions of members. People that talk shit about any recovery program are a joke. What works for you may not work for someone else. Get over yourself. Any program can work if you want it. And AA has a 100% success rate if you work it. If you don't, then of course you aren't a AA success, just like any other thing in this world. You have to work to be successful in case you didn't know!
Here I didn't say button, but , kinda wasn't feeling the love , Won't go back to that particular meeting Adios
OK. Listen, A.A.'s text is not SACRED. People in A.A. that I know don't regard the text as sacred, and certainly Bill Wilson, who WROTE the text, never claimed that he was divinely inspired and the text is inerrant.
Sorry - there is NOW an AA approved pamphlet called 'The God Word - agnostic and atheist members in aa'
I would have to let AA be my sound of reasoning to use this and it is not. AA is not my authority. My guess it is written to keep people in the group without any critical thinking. I have read it that's why I made this statement.
That lawyer lost his business
The speaker is great however
To each his/her own...
Jon still is afraid of AA. Apologist
Relapsed yet?
Nope.
@@jamesssss621 You’re the guy in the video?
@@HexagonFL Nope.
@@jamesssss621 oh okay I wasn’t commenting on your comment I was commenting on the video
Do you want this to happen?
This is slightly like the spinal tap take on AA. (or even sobriety and faith.) A very finite view of a very non finite or easily explained reality.
AA is an ok place to start but don't make it all your life, It's a good place to help you stay sober at first. The success rate is about 10% or less and some folks there don't truly believe in live and let live and if you don't fall in lockstep with them you get chastised. After 16 years in aa it just felt like a bunch of narcissistic a holes blowing smoke up each other's asses. There are some good people there but for the most part it's just a bunch of judgmental hypocrites who don't actually practice what's in the book. Then there folks who will 12 stomp newcomers and badger them before they can decide if AA is for them. Another thing I saw was folks sponsoring with very little time or still having difficulties in their own lives after many years any have no business playing the role of an advisor I'm so glad I left and am much happier not going. There's some great spiritual teachers on UA-cam like Sadhguru and Allen watts, two of my favorites. I guess the best advice I can give you about AA is be careful ! An ex AA friend of mine told me if I ever needed a resentment I could always go back! =)
Thanks for your advice and Alan Watts is awesome. Best wishes
@@UniqueSundials do you know them?
AA is a community which a lot of people have never felt or belonged anywhere, and there are genuine people in the rooms that really want to help without thinking and there are so many benefits than non
Besides all the predators in AA meetings? I agree.
people in CA were only friendly to me when i first came in. because they are told to help people to keep sober. most the time it is not out of love. nice talk.
I am not anti AA I just can't do it anymore. I believe in God however I don't believe God keeping people sober. To me it's just time to find a scientific way in treat alcoholism.
TY!
Keeping me so sober
A scientific approach has already been worked on several times (SMART, sinclair method, etc). Its just that AA got its foot in the door first so its super culturally engrained that AA is what you do if you want to get sober. It doesnt help that many AA groups insist that you can't get sober without them and that courts use it as their de facto treatment.
💯 I enjoy SMART Recvory. I look at AA like something that could have been a great program. Yet, it never updated itself. Still giving the same information that only works for so few people
AA is free and it provides a system and structure, however, there are contradictions in the program.
I’m 31 years sober, an atheist. I go to AA meetings in my neighborhood now daily, not for myself, but to find if there is an existing AA member I can help, or to welcome the new AA who is uncomfortable around religion. I am open in my rather traditional meeting so that the members can see that religion is not necessarily important.
Thank you. This was very refreshing to hear. I'm 5 years in recovery and I actively take people through the steps. I entered my first meeting with agnostic beliefs and through it all, it's why I'm an atheist today. 12 Step taught me not only to be emotionally honest but intellectually honest too.
Ive always had mixed feelings about AA. I love the idea of people getting together and venting about everyday problems....thats a simple way of getting therapy but I cant take the " GOD THIS and GOD THAT" Its sounds like a watered down version of some bible....which i have no interests in. I do agree there are sick and even sicker people in those rooms. There are also very nice people but its very cultish.....
I just am not a fan of " DO WHAT WE DO AND SAY WHAT WE SAY and well hang out with you...Ive met nutcases and nice genuine people in those rooms...you have to have a filter and stay away form the crazies....some of those people are still sick even though they do not drink... and i know people that drink that are very kind...you have to choose in the end.
The fact that there is no medical knowledge or research in the book is questionable....I think its an outdated book form the 30's. Yes alot of people need to get sober no doubt!
MY DISEASE IS DOING PUSH UPS IN THE PARKING LOT!!!! ME and MY HEAD ARE HEAD ARE A BAD THING, I'M SELF CENTERED TO THE CORE,
I am probably going to start drinking again. Why because thier nothing to live for ,
I am doing better,
@@recoveringlibertarian5982try random kindness? Even if no one seems to appreciate it. I thought the same, then thought I have nothing to live for so will just look out for two or three useful or kind things to do in the world each day. I've been doing it years. It's actually something to live for - to me, only thing to live for really.
Hopefully Recovering Libertarian is doing well. Their comment was from a year ago.
As I said in another thread, the definition of insanity is to make the same mistake and expect different results.....so even though you continue to relapse, keep coming back!!!! The irony.
It's funny Rob, but I totally never thought of that. We tell people who relapse to keep coming back when maybe we should be saying, have you tried something different? :) Good point.
I have seen too much pain in AA that I had to follow my own advice and get out of there!
My word, thankyou!! this is literally what I have been through for couple of years! Its so simple you could miss it. As much as I Appreciate a good cup. Of coffee, listening to shares and a chat and what the rooms have done for me in early days, I Think it's time to walk away and try a more scientific and healthy approach. I get this, your selfish you didn't contribute back... The thing is I tried to contribute to the point of codependant behaviour with others I'm a single mum I had to choose between AA and my children. The kids won because AA as they say is a selfish programme. There are many, many ways to recover from alcoholism! Intuition is a guiding force.
A very refreshing discussion about recovery, and about humanity. I am an atheist, albeit one who can still talk about G-d. Quite a bit. G-d is kind of like mothers... if it didn't exist, we'd have to invent it. And that is precisely what humans, have done, world-wide, from one culture to the next. The big step in human social development wasn't agriculture... it was culticulture. In some ways the concept of a G-d can be quite a useful one if it helps me get to a place where I am able to realize that my best thinking, my knowledge, my understanding is limited. As Sheldon Kopp states beautifully: "We must learn to live with in the ambiguity of partial freedom, partial power, and partial knowledge." (from his "Eschatological Laundry List"). I have no trouble imagining a higher power without it being G-d. My recovery from alcoholism and addiction to opiates started when I went to the hospital a year ago, and began a 7-day detoxification program, and signed up for rehab... that is when I met my higher power... On a Tuesday morning around 11:30 in early January 2020, as I was easing into my fifth day of a bender out of human proportion - at least 6 bottles of wine a day - I heard a noise from my back door and stirred from my spot on the couch, binge-drinking red wine while I was binge-watching the movie "Come Back, Little Sheba" on UA-cam [sic!]. The EMTs and police and security were there at my back door calling my name. Someone from my employer had called a wellness/welfare check on me. I'd not been to work for 6 days, and was not responding to email or phone calls. They were worried I might have died, and living alone, perished in my home. One of the EMTs put his hand on my shoulder and said: "It looks like you could use a little help, buddy. Karl, would you let us help you?" It turns out I'd been waiting for someone to ask. I couldn't ask for help myself, and I didn't know how I was going to get out of my misery, the shakes and tremors, the fear. Honestly, I would have welcomed death as readily as agents of recovery that morning. I said yes. I wept and asked them to help me. A week later, after I had celebrated my 56th birthday in a hospital bed, I spoke with the person who'd initiated the welfare check on me. I was very grateful. She said, she was just glad I'd said yes. That didn't compute for me. I was confused. Of course I said yes. What else could I have done? The jig was up. She said that actually, I could have said no. I could have said: "Leave me alone" ; "Go away" ; "I'm okay"... I was not violent, and had not committed violence on another or on myself. I had not threatened violence on myself or on another. I was not visibly suicidal, and I had the legal right to refuse treatment and assistance. Had they taken me against my will, and something had happened, that hurt me, or that could have hurt me, or just pissed me off... they were liable for that, potentially. It was a loophole I could have driven a hearse through... And, I knew nothing about it. So I left my home and went on a journey of recovery and self-help, with much assistance from medical personnel, therapeutic counselors, family, and friends. I have a lot, A LOT of education. I am a librarian. Knowledge and the pursuit of it is power, and the currency of my realm. But what saved my on January 14, 2020, was not what I knew, but what I did not know. I did not know that I could have continued drinking - I had more unopened bottles at my side. Don't know mind (Zen beginner's mind)... know we start from a place of unknowing. Forget your perfect learning.... my higher power is "Everything Karl does not know"... and that is a hell of a lot. I don't pray. It feels dishonest to me. Like putting on a mask, or drinking to forget... It is uncomfortable to hear so many pray around me... but I don't begrudge them that. I appreciate that some can and do find recovery from addiction on their knees. As I mentioned, I am a librarian. I research quotes a lot. It turns out many famous quotes were not said by the person to which the words are attributed. And, just because my higher power is what I don't know ... that does nothing to pull me away from the quest in the question, the search in the research. In the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous - specifically, in Appendix II - The Spiritual Experience, you'll find the following quotation: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation. -Herbert Spencer" - It turns out Herbert Spencer was not the originator of that concept - he wrote and said A LOT... but not that. (Read the story about it at "The Fix" www.thefix.com/content/contempt-prior-to-investigation-AA-Herbert-Spencer8042)... The idea is still a valid one. Don't prejudge something new or unknown to you until you've tried it... I just wish AA would honor that principle in all their affairs. There are no outside issues in the human experience of addiction. The major thing it gets right is that alcoholics can help each other... I am glad I have friends who have found recovery in the twelve steps. My path is a different one, but I love all the company...
That's the best UA-cam post I've ever seen... And I've seen a lot!! Good wishes to you. My concept of god is similar maybe. A sort of wistful, poetic, wry, inspired, awe and wonder sort of sense of the amazingness of life, the world, universe. ♥️
Thank you so much for this discussion.
I've been sober in AA 19 years. It's black and white with me - I went from being a deranged person who traipsed around drinking outside half dressed in and out of blackout, or convinced I was dying when sober and that I had broken my brain, to a healthy person who appreciates every day and engages with the world everyday. Admittedly if you can do this without aa, then great. Maybe I could do without AA but I don't have any better thing to spend the time on (i.e. I work full time, run a lot of races, have small.time charitable involvement, see family, have an interest in science). I tried lots of stuff before AA (art, various groups) but deep down have never believed in anything as much as alcohol or AA, peace and kindness. Left to my own devices I drift into my own thoughts and isolate.
Now that's How It Works :)
Please give me info on anything to research further or contacts. I too am in the middle like you and am currently breaking the break out of the fellowship. With 13 years continuous recovery clean time x
Hi Caroline. Please send me an email. My email address is john@aabeyonbelief.org. There are Facebook groups dedicated to people who had bad experiences with AA and stopped attending meetings. Jon Steewart, who's not anti-AA, but rather pro choice with recovery options has a blog "Leaving AA, Staying Sober. Here is the link: jonsleeper.wordpress.com/
aabeyond belief.... what is this? i want in
Also let me just add that different programs work for different people. Don’t like AA? Okay, you can try to stay sober on your own. Even the AA book says that if you can stop or moderate on your own more power to you. People need to understand that you can’t really generalize anything. Some people need AA, some don’t. Maybe you’re not an actual alcoholic. Did you read the part in the book where it explains the different types of drinkers? And the fact that some people can just suddenly stop and they’re not real alcoholics? Basically, if you can stop on your own free will and not have a problem ever again, you’re not a real alcoholic. People that NEED AA are real alcoholics because they continue to deal with their problems with alcohol if they’re not reminded every day/week what they’re doing and what they should focus on. Congratulations on being sober but you can’t just generalize things and say “AA is this way.” Any organization known to man has different types of people. Different personalities, nice people, mean people, judgmental people, accepting people. It’s who you associate with and ultimately what YOU personally choose to do. AA makes it easier for certain people to stay sober, bottom line. It’s like saying Christianity or a certain religion is “wrong” or saying you’re “anti” that organization. Well, that would be a little closed minded, because what works for some people doesn’t necessarily work for everyone. You can’t say everyone’s brain is the same or everyone reacts to one thing the same way, or “this” works for everyone or “this” works for no one. You really can’t classify everyone’s brain because not one brain on this whole planet is the same. It’s like saying one race are all the same, or one gender is all the same, or one sexual orientation is all the same. There’s no sense to it, it’s just nonsense talk. Take care!
I’ve scrolled through lots of comments and I don’t see many, if any, “generalizing” AA. I do see a lot of people who have been in AA, including myself, who left due an apparent common thread amongst the organization as a whole. You’re accusing everyone of generalizing by using a generalization.
@@jamesssss621 Nope! I’m just saying it’s impossible to generalize organizations as a whole :)
@@HexagonFL I don’t think many were. We were all sharing our experience.
@@jamesssss621 i was referring to the video, not comments on the video
@@HexagonFL AA is very good at generalizing things though. It's in the writing. Go enough times and you might just believe what it says. At which point you better be careful about who you meet in the rooms cause they can do anything to you now and it WILL be your own damn fault.
Thank you.
I'm pretty OCD ,definitely wasn't caused by AA, could you not hand that over in same way as drinking 🙏 but if your happy and sober that's the main thing I think I've done step 1 and 2 Where else to go than As (Darwin ha ha I don't think it's true) CBT interesting (Really the doctor said!)
Yaweh is the Hebrew word for Jah or Jehovah. If you look at African buses you will see Jehovah graffitied on them. It's God's Name. Funny this was your last comment for an athiest. Get clear boys!
This is where im at with AA. It was working in the early stages but i felt like i had to keep swallowing chunks of information that 1) is saw my sponsor not practicing and 2) being the type of person who pulls things apart i found the things i was being asked to do were in conflict with my idea of a higher power. I think AA is great but is too rigid. I also dont like being made to feel guilty for not doing certain things. When i relapsed 2 people tried to phone me (though i knew about a hundred well) and when i come back i have to listen to lectures on how we must stick together and call each other often etc.
Different strokes for different folks. Ill never stop going to meetings, and you know where we will be if you ever need us.
In every man women and child is a fundamental feeling of faith
There really isn't. Some people just don't have it in them, and it's not really anyone else's place to insist they do.
Here's an extract from aa pamphlet: Any concept of the Higher Power is acceptable. A skeptic or agnostic may choose to think of his Inner Self, the miracle of growth, a tree, man's wonderment at the physical universe, the structure of the atom, or mere mathematical infinity. Whatever form is visualized, the neophyte is taught that he must rely upon it and, in his own way, to pray to the Power for strength.
nonsense
Although AA is another segment of society, we do learn to be around sober good people and now that courts send everyone to treatment then to AA. We outgrow and go beyond the dogma.
Vipassana Meditation was a path of neutrality.
AA works. Nearly every one on this thread got sober in AA. I continue to go to help others. I can not imagine an AA with only newcomers.
It works for around 5% of people statistically
Wow 8 year's ago. A god of your own understanding.