How much faster is A versus B?
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2022
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Coincidentally I've been trying out different positions at home too. And my wife tells me which one I'm faster finishing at.
🤔🤔🤔
Spoiler alert: you're fast in all of them
@@valiantabello Apologize immediately.
There was a line in the sand and Patrick leapt over it.
@@cyclingnerddelux698 🙋🏾♂🙋🏾♂
That’s probably the most important reason why Remco is so good on solo breakaways on the flat. He can hold the „Aero is life“ position pretty much for hours.
I would have liked the position in the drops in comparison, which is not quite as aerodynamic as the "Aero is Life" position, but I personally use it a lot when riding fast.
Yes, but one thing is missed over anything else. The most comfortable position is the fastest position. THEN aerodynamics. Can be aero af but its all irrelevant if you are uncomfortable and shifting constantly.
Lower shoulders is always better but comfort over everything.
@@mattk8810 As an avid Time trialest, i have to disagree with this. There is ballance in everything, but my fastest position is definetly not my most comfortable position.
@@mattk8810 no dude...most comfortable is not fastest. And comfort is relative to your mental capacity.
@@fatbloaterdave True, but then again If you are really an "avid" TT rider, you have a completely different specialty TT bike, with a totally different, optimized aero position anyway.
This video was to show what can be achieved on a regular road race geometry, drop bar only, road bike, with NO TT bars/extensions.
Unless you are riding a series where regular road bikes (including 'aero' types) are required, or have their own class for competition. ??
@@LS1conehead I’ve done road and TT bike time trials this year, I find it holds true for both. Obviously the position needs to be sustainable so you can hold it for the whole event. But my neck and shoulders and arms will be in a fair bit of discomfort after a TT.
Another thought. I often use my most aero position when I'm in a situation where I'm going fast but I no longer have to put down significant power. That eliminates most of the negatives of trying to pedal hard with my hip angle closed, but gives me some of the benefits of an aero ride.
Exactly. Works in descents too obviously.
Kinesiologist here. The mass of the rider really doesn't affect your ability to ride low and aero. It comes down to your flexibility and mobility which can be limited by muscle, nerve or the joint capsule. Also wanted to mention that if your heart rate is higher in an aero position, it's because limited range of motion increases internal resistance. Using the hamstrings as an example: Every time you reach the bottom of the pedal stroke, the hamstrings will stretch and create a force that will fight knee extension. So while you're trying to push the pedal down, the hamstring stretch will resist by trying to pull the pedal back up.
This is some big time generalization you are doing here bub
Very interesting.
I'm just happy to see this cameo with James. Absolutely love him for all his efforts to promote all racing with Mission Crit. I missed out this year but hopefully I'll see everyone next year when it happens again. Thanks Jeff 👍🏼👌🏼🤝🏼🔥 for this cameo and information.
It's all about application for different positions and how much practice people want to focus on in these positions as well. Thanks for the video!
❤
Ok, this one pushed me over, I subscribed. Watched a few of your vids over the past couple months, but this one did a superior job in visualizing, test subject variation, and narration of the test.
Thank you. Looking forward to the next one.
Great video, thanks. On a side note I found it easier to stay longer in the lower aero position after I mounted shorter 165mm cranks.
I guess it depends on your flexibility. I am 5'7" and use 170mm cranks, but i am flexible enough to do the "asian squat" comfortably (i am asian though). I could go for a shorter crank but i think i would benefit more from the leverage of my 170mm crank.
Grab the handlebar in the middle, as close to the center as it gets, arms bend a little bit like position 2 in this video, for times where you only go in a straight. Your frontal area will be more narrow and therefore you will produce less air resistance, but you don't have to crumble into the aero is life position.
you also have to pray you dont hit an unsuspecting pebble because you have very little leverage on the bars 😬
Would have loved to see down on the drops but with the comfortable elbow angle position
drops vs hoods = assuming the same body position, i've heard that hoods is faster, but the difference is negligible. we stayed on the hoods for consistency, but i'm typically in the drops especially in the last couple laps of a crit when control is more important than marginal aero gains
Interesting video! I used to love competing in the Davis Wheel Works Putah Creek Time Trial because it allowed me to (loosely) compare changes week over week. Of course I was doing it on a tri bike so the aero position and overall geometry was much more comfortable.
Great video loved it! Something worth saying though is that you can very much train and get accustomed to positions.
While Jeffs's points have a LOT of merits it also is no surprise that "the normal" position, in which they are used to riding, is the most comfortable and overall efficient one.
With that being said it is also a bit of a chicken and the egg situation as this might be the standard position because they, consciously or not, adapted to the "best" position from their hours upon hours of riding beforehand.
For sure an interesting topic to look at :)
Just to encourage you: The aero position (drops) was hard for me at first. Now it feels like the most natural and comfortable position. I can hold it a whole day without even thinking about it. On hills/mountains I get up of course.
Great video! Definitely seems like the gains of the more aero position art worth the extra fatigue vs the middle position.
Would love to see a video about how much of a difference upgrading tires/inner-tubes make! (I've heard it'll be way more than upgrading the wheels)
these videos would have been the shit back in 2010 when I was in Highschool just started riding. Now GCN & specialized wind tunnel videos have flooded the market with free speed videos. Love a video from Jeff as always though! Keep it up.
Your heart rate on a percentage basis was just 4.5% faster in the aero position vs the slowest/upright position, but you were 6.8% faster in the aero position. That's huge. Learning to ride in an aero position is important because after awhile you do get more comfortable (to a degree of course and there are limits) and faster.
Been loving the quality of the vidoes recently!! KEEP IT UP JEFF :)
great video jeff and crew! informative and keep it up
Bro what are the drops for?
Great editing on this one!
If you don’t train in the aero position of course it’s going to be inefficient, but bike fit also is really important here, and frankly, I’m shocked neither of you went numb in the twig and berries.
Most riders ignore flexibility and strength training off the bike, but it’s critically important, especially so you can get low on solo rides into a headwind. Thanks where you really feel it
I have gotten to the point where I ride the drops in a more aero position, and it actually feels more comfortable for me. Maybe it's the bike fit that makes the difference. Plus, I have a torso like a mac truck, so anything upright or close feels way worse for me, but people usually like it when I pull because I catch the wind for them like a sail on a pirate ship.
Great video, looks like you cats had fun making this round :)
Love these videos! Along the lines of “free” speed, can you do a vid to see how kit impacts speed? Club fit vs race fit vs basic skin suit?
...and then the difference between the 'basic' skin suit and the super aero optimized/with 'tripped' base layer ones used by elites on the track or in world level TTs
This is interesting. A lot of what I do is TT and triathlons so I've got really short cranks and subsequently I am super comfy in the super aero position. Not to say I am uncomfortable in the others but it's definitely something I prefer over the other 2
I prefer the middle upright position as it provides both comfort and a modicum of aerodynamics. If I'm not comfortable, my mileage will drop significantly, as I won't be too encouraged to get back on my bike.
I'm glad I found this channel!
Keep having James on. I like that we are having some representation for us thicc boys out there.
🙌
For training purposes or for the Strava warrior, get yourself some clip-on aerobars. You can find a quality pair for under $200 and, once you get the position dialed, it's actually the MOST comfortable and most aero position. They aren't legal in road racing but most of our riding is training and clip-on aerobars help build speed and core strength. I use them on a 90 mi fairly flat loop and stay in the bars about 90-95% of the ride.
"Different positions with the boys" 😅😅😅
🤪
Yoga and practise aero is life. = free speed 😇
From my experience I got heaps of lower back pain after holding aero is life position. The pain eased after I practised keeping my spine straighter and bending at the hips rather than crunching my at the middle of my back.
Thought Jeff was setting up to do a ride in socks and flip flops then do a ride in bike shoes.
Nice video Jeff! With love from Lagos, Nigeria 🇳🇬 ❤️
I personally have this reflex to try and get down lower when facing the wind or any other situation where I tend to think that the aero gains outweigh the lost Watts and higher heart rate.
Great video. Keep’em coming.
aero is life :D this year I focused on that position and got used to it so much that it became my normal riding position where I can produce the most power as well :D
Moved out of the bay 7 years ago. Riding in Alviso is the about the only thing I really miss, hehe.
From the discussions, it would be a good idea to do a follow-up with using the drops and then comparing that to the hoods positions. Then there's the forearm rests which are yet another option, but in general aren't ideal for technical courses.
drops vs hoods = i've heard that hoods is faster, but the difference is negligible. we stayed on the hoods for consistency, but i'm typically in the drops especially in the last couple laps of a crit when control is more important than marginal aero gains
On my old steel bikes being in the most aggressive aero position to keep up is a requirement! But regular stretching has unlocked comfort in that position for me.
I use the drop down bar and aero position when riding against strong wind.
You think Jeff is skinny, I'm 130lbs. That upright position makes me a sail and really slows me down. I try to ride in the aggressive position but it is definitely tough to sustain the power in that position. I'm usually in the middle also.
Yeah. I think being skinny on the contrary makes you more susceptible to drag resistance.
Hi there, I trained a lot in the aero is life position and the speed gains don't quite align with my experience. Is your source file available somewhere?
Unless I missed it, it would have been nice to see the speed comparison. I like the aero position and decrease of wind noise are the ears.
The demonstrated "Aero is Life" position aka "Aero Hoods" position has still potential for improvement by tucking in the head a bitmore.
I am experimenting a lot with this position in my training. I personally find it easier to sustain it for a longer period if I just lay down my hands on top of the hoods and hook in with the little fingers below the bar to have a secure connection with the bike in case of any bumps.
On a side note, if the hip angle gets to small, it is maybe a question of bike fitting and/or adaptation.
Anyway, intriguing topic!
Jeff - my forearms are killing me! Grabs triceps 😆
Great content! I'd be curious what the benefits are of riding in that middle position that you thought was a good mix of aero/power generated vs riding in the drops. I've found that I can ride in them for extended periods being a bit less comfortable, but always wondered if it was worth the aero savings.
drops vs hoods = assuming your body position is the same, i've heard that hoods is faster, but the difference is negligible. we stayed on the hoods for consistency, but i'm typically in the drops especially in the last couple laps of a crit when control is more important than marginal aero gains
@@NorCalCycling according to a specialized aerodynamicist I've talked to, it is not negligible. Your arms are very non-aero being circular. I believe he told me that it makes more difference than lowering your torso
Fun to watch and I know it’s not scientific. But to be fair, the stack heights were not changed in the three position scenarios. For a beginner it is likely that the stack height is much higher. As your skills evolve your stack height likely decreases. Not sure it would change the results at all but it may effect the comfort of the beginner position. Love the videos!
A mate of mine dropped 8.5k on a giant propel and was always advocating slamming his stem. Well he did, and automatically regretted it. His posture was terrible and like these gents, closed off his hip angle. The only way he could go fast and get massive power down was to stand out of the saddle and get into the drops. He spent most rides getting in and out of the saddle.
He ended up buying a new fork and went back to the original height for an extra 1.5k. Expensive lesson indeed
Quality content and a really fun idea for a video!
1. Angle your hoods inwards like remco and it makes a huge difference in regards to how sustainable that aero position is.
2. Practice is lots (Riding to the shops? Aero!) and it starts to feel more comfortable, eventually.
I sometimes go full Remco position with my head almost on the bars. It's crazy fast but so difficult to hold.
When I try to get really low in the drops, my knees/thighs hit my chest.
TOTALLY wrong seat position, stem length, and bike fit I guess, or maybe it is my age, and an 18 year layoff from riding which makes this feel so absolutely unstable and strange to me now.
Also, being on older Campy Record 10, very short brake hoods, I cannot get super low in that hand grip position either, like everyone else does on their MTB bar end length, current day Shimano and SRAM crazy length hoods. ☹
This is the only way I can ride faster then 45 km/h for a longer Effort.
I wonder if the different positions need different seat, handle bar positions to maximise the power output. I.e. in aero you may need to stretch the gap between seat and bars.
I have a fairly long and steady straight road close to me where I experimented with this sometime ago.
Instead of riding a long distance in a single position, I switched every minute between my normal position, riding on the hoods with arms slightly bent and then dropping down on to the drops fror a minute and then into an aero position als the time trying to maintain a steady cadence and power. When i looked at the starva dat after the ride, the change from hoods to drops was clearly visible by a speed increase of around 2km/h from 30 to 32km/h which is about 6% improvement. Changing from the drops to the aero did not give me any meaningful additional speed but a decrease in riding comfort. So my numbers kind of confirm what you were reporting. I tried briefly a similar test at higher speed of ~40km/h and again observed a marked increase of speed when going into the drops but because i am 68 years of age, the 40km/h was a bit too fast for me to maintain for a conclusive trial but by feel and the few data I have the difference was about 6.5%. At lower speeds of 15km/h the difference is becoming marginal.
Riding in the full aero position is just not my thing as I cannot breath as freely as when riding on the hoods and riding in the drops is also a bit more restrictive but then I am not racing but doing enjoyable endurance rides of 100 to 160km with average speeds of 20km/h.
Hey Jeff can u make a test spd vs spd sl? Many people now wanna ride their road bikes in spd shoes becuase it is easier to walk. But are they good for long road rides? Do u loose any power? I think they are as good as spd sl but would love your opinion
I ride in spd shoes, got mtb pedals on my road and mountain bike.
On my old TCR got a 1 sided type of spd,..
Road shoes & pedals are for racers, anyone else is just silly riding those imo
Especially when I see a fat or beginner rider with road shoes, stupid 😅
@@tonycaluda1868 I have shimano rx8 on my road bike and they are light and stiff. I just need more light and WHITE shoes for spd :)
I'm curious on James and Jeff's (possibly Edward Snowden) thoughts on race bike geometry in 2022. It seems like bikes are getting lower stacks, but the bike industry compensates with compact bars. Why not have a taller headtube with a longer reach bar with a deeper bend. Then you can have a nice low drop position, a longer "aero is life" position, and a nice tall handlebar top for climbing.
it's easier to make a smaller frame bigger then it is to make a bigger frame smaller. if the stack height is too short, you can run a longer steerer or get a shallower stem. If the stack is too high, your options are limited to an aggressive stem which changes the handling of the bike. my guess is manufacturers are trying to appeal to as many people as possible
To that point I wonder if James would benefit from a larger frame. The reach looks too short for him. Just sayin...
@@michaelhammill8000 I'm slow no matter what 😭. The Venge is a 56cm with a 110mm stem, so I have options to adjust my fit if needed. I'm right on the cusp of needing a larger frame, but for road/crit racing I prefer this size. I've been working with my fitter (Ceser at 3D Bike Fit in SF) for years now and trust him. Best money I've spent in bikes, tbh.
Love to see the new cervelo soloist tested against a tcr or propel or tarmac if you could get your hands on one !
what is more better, drop bars or top of the hoods bent (position C), i feel comfy on dropbars if my saddle is forward and i feel comfy on top of the hoods (bent) if my saddle is backward
What bike size do you ride and how tall are you? Im looking to buy a new bike and by my experience with my bike id go a size down but not really sure . Thanks
What if you were not using same power, but same HR? More power in more upright position. Could it compensate for aero?
wish I had seen this video at the beginning, nobody corrected my posture until a few days ago, I always ride around Cafe Cowboy for almost 3 years, I'm just passing to the Aero is Life and wow every day I do PRs without much effort
I love your channel and shared my friends. It will be awesome if you guys can do a video on different bike impacts speed. I am a casual riding, riding a giant revolt advanced gravel bike and use 2 set of wheels for road and light trail. I really want to know how much time you gain if you use same set of wheels/tires but why different bikes (gravel vs endurance vs race vs aero).
I think the effect is even more multiplied when facing a headwind. Always practice aero positions
Another interesting video/test would be a bike with non-aero wheels riding in the "cafe cowboy" position, then aero position (skip the middle position since we know it's not too far off the full aero position).....and then repeat the two positions with aero wheels. That'll give a pretty full spectrum between non-aero wheels/non-aero position to aero wheels and full aero position in one test/same day conditions.
For northern folk, use z1/2 base training indoor sessions during winter to cultivate being more comfortable in the drops/aero position. My first year i hated being in the drops because it was so uncomfortable. It is not natural to be able to generate power from that position, it must be trained. Now, years later I often prefer being in the drops for long sections even if I can generate more power from an upright position. Just start with forcing yourself in the drops for 5 minutes, then 10, 15 etc... and before you know it you'll be able to do a whole TT in the aero position.
I need to focus more on the drops in the winter. I ride rollers in the winter, and when using the tops and the hoods, I am super smooth and seem to put more power down. On the drops, I'm all over the rollers and feel a little unstable. I need to practice this more this year to be as smooth on the drops as I am on the hoods.
Aero Helmet related. There's times where I go full aero position with my head down, (I have the Evade helmet) the back of the helmet is basically upright and is sticking out like a sore thumb because it's long. I wonder how much can that affect my speed or watts.
I've always wondered that too. It may be that a more rounded helmet would be more aero in that position
Could compare Hunt Aero 50mm carbon fiber wheels against the Scribe wide + 50D carbon fiber wheels ?
Amazing video as always :D
Love the new graphics!!
How much difference does a nice aero bike and wheels make over a middle of the road bike when in the draft on a group ride.
Awesome video Jeff. What bar width do you run? And is there any flare at the drops? Cheers :-)
42mm zipp aero bars with no flare
@@NorCalCycling given all the talk about narrow bars (36-38mm) tucking you in better, have you considered going smaller? IDK if I would in a crit, where I want control, but for a solo ride bike, I hear the drag gains are substantial.
@@ultimatist For what it's worth, if you have narrow shoulders, you will lose nothing by going narrower. When I ride 42mm or even 40mm bars, I find that I tuck my wrists in a bit - not because I want to get more aero, but because that's where my upper body wants my hands to go. I now ride 38mm bars that are 36.5mm at the hoods, and my wrists are relatively straight. I actually find it more comfortable and more natural. I don't get as much leverage during hard efforts out of the saddle, but that's the only negative from going narrower. I've even been thinking about trying 36mm bars.
@@NorCalCycling interesting, and thanks for that! As has been mentioned below, the trend is to go narrower however the best climbers and sprinters seem to prefer the wider 40cm+ bars for the extra leverage it gives during out of the saddle efforts. I guess if you’re a breakaway-guy, then narrower makes sense.
@@NorCalCycling bar width speed test comparison would be awesome to watch plus maybe max power output on 38-44cm bars?
The one comparison i would add has to do with the positionning of the elbow, i see many riders even some experienced ones, with a bent at the elbow but a bent with the insides of said bends facing each other and the exterior of the arms expanding to the sides when in fact most efficient way is for the inside of your elbow to face upward and all of it not taking wind outwards as well (which implies a slight rotation at the elbows as well and has the extra potential soletimes to also untighten a little more room for your lungs as well). So, i'd love to compare a slightly more upward position with proper positioning of the elbows, to a more downward one but with elbows 'former downhill racer' style. Just to see if they balance out or not :)
I like the extreme aero position because my legs rebounding off my belly sends extra power to the pedals 🐖
Man I have a question how did you fit a zipp sprint sl stem on an od2 (giant ) fork
Hello! :) I was just wondering why you both didn't use the drop bars for a more aerodynamic position...?? Sorry, just curious..
When you talk about speed and aero of upright on the flat road.
Recumbent: Just smiling.
my lower back. ouch. i can't lean forward for very long, so i prefer a more upright riding position. It would be nice to see more videos about stem options. That said, a pretty cool video. Thanks! 💙💜🤎
TDF riders are mostly in the drops?
i've got the bombas cycling socks (present from my wife), they look good and feel good! would def get more. really enjoy this series of vids, always fun to compare in real world
I personally prefer and find the aerotuck comfortable for most part and only lift up when I want to get a bit of a stretch on my shoulders and back. Really don't find it uncomfortable.
This channel is so fun
Aero position encourages faster cadence & you're closer to the hoods thus causing a faster finishing time
as someone who doesn't even race, i've spent too many hours torturing myself in that low aero position. always worth it for the cool points, the speed aspect is almost a secondary bonus haha
Bombas socks are the best. Love them.
Really like your videos, I would like to know if you have someone you recommend me to get my bike fitted? I’m in San Jose CA.
Riding a single speed/ fix on a windy day gives you all the feedback you need on this topic!
I’ve found that with the right fit and good reach on the bike I can keep the hip angle pretty open for power delivery and stay real low in aero position off the front. But I’m also not a sprinter. Haha. So I think the aero position is always the answer unless you’re in the draft. Also the more aero you are ON the front the less you’re offering the dudes behind you, no?
It depends on if you have a head wind or a tall wind!!
If you want to try to spend more time "slammed" you must also look at saddle position, bar width, and perhaps whether you're carrying too much weight in the gut to breathe effectively to make the change worthwhile. It's best to work on all of these things incrementally with all caveats in mind so that your long term training goals can also be adjusted as needed. And if you're doing all of these expecting to be fresh for the sprint...make sure that's what you're actually achieving.
This makes me think of another good episode that you could make. "How much does a hydration pack slow you down?" Run the test up something like a steep-ish climb with 1000 feet elevation gain. Also run it on a varied course at ~250 watts.
interesting concept but hydration packs aren't worn by road or crit racers. If you're curious about how weight impacts climbing performance i made a video specifically addressing that topic, using full water bottles to add weight
@@NorCalCycling I agree that wearing hydration packs is not a thing for road racing, but it is a hot topic in gravel. Keegan Swenson famously chose to wear a pack at SBT gravel this year, causing a rift when he did not stop to fill bottles. So the question is- What is the cost of choosing to wear a pack?
@@johnhunt3076 set up an experiment and let us know the results!
I'm more focused on going further and staying on my bike longer than on going faster, but this still applies. Being more _aerodynamically efficient_ (a coke machine is _aerodynamic_ or "aero") means I cover the same distance with less energy, which in turn means I can stay in the saddle longer because my energy lasts longer. I might achieve a marginally higher average speed, but that's not my actual goal.
Nice one, but what about the drop?
Nice music. Interesting video.
The aero position is comfortable for me and my power is fine but I can't see far enough in front of me. I have to lookup frequently and it strains my neck.
Hey Jeff, I’m also riding the adv 1 disk, but whenever I sprint and flex the fork, the disk brakes will rub. Heard many who ride the adv 1 disk suffers from this issue too… Do u have the problem also?
nope, sounds like the brakes need adjustment
@@NorCalCycling alright, will take it to a bike shop and see what they say, thanks for the help
"For free" my whole body aches watching the aero position...
What about the drops? I feel like there isn't much difference between the first 2 positions
drops are slower than aero hood I guess
Aero hood position is generally accepted as a faster position than tucked in the drops
@@avischetlin yeah. I didn't say the drops were faster. I think it would have been better to do the bent elbow hood, drops, then aero hood. Cause who really rides with their elbows locked like that
@@avischetlin I believe you, but then the question becomes: what are the drops for then? Better for sprinting out of the saddle? Better for control on technical descents? More aero than non-aero hood position while more conducive to power output? Just good to have multiple positions for variety on longer rides??
Kinda feels like we're just a few years away from road bikes coming with bullhorn bars...
@@asmodean8987 Like they've stated in the video, I've seen beginners/newbies ride like that, and be VERY unsteady and 'squirrely' on the bike as a result.
These are most entertaining videos :)
I don't have a problem riding with bent arms, but I also don't slam a stem or keep the bars so close, so I don't run the saddle extremely high, I think more than 10 mm of drop for someone under 5'10 is a bit excessive for non-track or time trialing. It's much easier to maintain bent arm, aero position with your bars slightly higher and the saddle drop a little lower, along with a slightly longer reach, then you can move between the hoods and drops more, and still be plenty aero, but generate some power too, The modern racer is way to bunched up and far too stretched downwards, instead of outwards. I think classic racing positions deserve a good look nowadays to comabt excessive saddle/bar drop. You're running deep drops, they're best when you don't have excessive saddle height so that you can get low and sit up, and leverage the benefits of each positions with more comfort, speed, and power
I'm curious what whould happen if both of you had the same bpm in the aero and bro positions... so basically you were able to generate a slightly more watts in relaxed position.
Next video….which bike fit method produces more power and speed !?
I was surprised by the limited gains achieved in the "aero is life" position. In "aero is life", the top 3 things are (1) flat forearms and lowered torso; (2) rounded shoulders; and (3) "turtled" head position. Jeff seemed to achieve all 3. James seemed to struggle with his head position.