The Most Effective Marginal Gain. Aerodynamics with Josh Poertner
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- Опубліковано 13 кві 2022
- By far the most important marginal gain you can make is improving your aerodynamics. In fact some of the speed gains made from a few quick changes are so significant that they shouldn't even be classified as "marginal gains", they're just gains. Josh Poertner goes into detail about how to improve your aerodynamics on the bike.
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good guest and good stuff dylan, keep up the fine work 💪🏻
I can attest that the plans are 100% worth it. I gained more, at 43 years or age, than I have in my entire life over this last season with Dylan's Plan. Really, really great to have that structure and from watching all of his videos, I know where the plan comes from.
@@terrydean3802 q😊
I'm sorry Dylan but I'm afraid I won't be sharing any of these excellent videos with any of my friends because I will be racing against them in a few week's time and I need all the watts over them I can get!! Off to order some aero socks now...
aero socks indeed!!!
Lol I’m the same way.
If you care about being faster than you mates, then working hard is probably the lowest priority in the order of things to get.
Socks? Requires 0 effort and it’s a permanent gain. Wheelset/aero frame/helmets? Same. All these don’t cost you ANY effort or time, yet gives you an immediate benefit boost.
Fitness requires time and effort to build and maintain, while it’s so much easier to just BUY your benefits. So of course it’s way more logical to just focus on optimising your equipment first, and once you’ve squeezed out every last watt from your gear, then you start looking to fitness for those uncertain gains.
It’s like my coach said before. It’s ok that we train less than the other competitors given our country’s emphasis on education. We still can win because our wealth allows us to buy our way to the podium, and that’s a win too.
@@slowcyclist4324 that is really a poor sport mentality. At a pro level where you have pressure from sponsors, I can understand but for amateur.. That is why some amateurs cheat, take enhancing drugs where there is only their ego which is at risk. You will be much more proud of overtaking your mates by the efforts that you have made than thanks to the last skinsuit that you have purchased. Otherwise I do not understand why you have started to ride at the beginning
Lmao 🤣 🤣 bastard! 😋🤨😠
This series of topics with Josh Porter was super informative and entertaining! Thanks a lot Dylan and Josh. Learned a lot.
Absolutely LOVED geeking out with these interviews Dylan - Josh is the perfect guest and your line of questioning was exactly what I wanted to ask - really well done. MORE Pls ! (I'd welcome a quarterly series with Josh?!)
I second that.
Yup!
Right on point!
I haven't been able to turn a pedal in 5 months due surgery and injuries. I'll need to start riding in a vacuum, just to be able to get my bike moving forward. :)
I wear baggy basketball shorts and a open zipper hoodie. Oh the humanity.
Watching this on my CAAD9 on the trainer wearing mismatched socks. Thanks Dylan, I feel inspired.
Haha, me too!
Excellent piece, thank you for this. Especially the forthright analysis of low cost aerodynamic improvements.
One thing I learned from Mike Burrow’s book Bicycle Design is that even with wheel covers in place, traditional forks, and even “aerodynamic” forks, are a drag-inducing disaster.
The turbulence of the air as it passes through two tubes with a wheel in between is astonishing.
This is also why monoplane aircraft are so much faster than biplanes.
The solution?
A monoblade. An asymmetrical one piece fork, tapered at or greater than 4:1 with a teardrop shape.
And yes, front and rear.
His Lotus 108 featured this and it was an insanely fast machine.
And now I’ll close before I start talking about recumbents …
Dylan, what I would love to see is a video on how to train to ride in an aero position for longer.
What kind of stretch exercises, strength exercises and on the bike drills I could apply so that I could actually hold my aero tuck for a long time.
I feel as when I’m fresh I can usually hold an aero position for a while, but as I get fatigued my triceps start burning, shoulder gets tense and It becomes hard to hold the tuck.
Thanks for the awesome video as always
That would be really interesting 👏
This would be very interesting, I feel like my power is lacking in deeper positions and I quickly revert to hoods + locked elbows :P
Second!
For what it’s worth, it’s a function of three elements: (1) time in the position; (2) bike fit; and (3) flexibility. There’s a lot to discuss about all three but in my experience inadequate hamstring flexibility is commonly an issue. And it’s one you can solve relatively easily with proper attention. As a test, you should be able to raise your foot a couple inches vertically from a pedal (in socks) in the noon (top) position when in your aero position. Most riders can’t move it vertically at all meaning they are dragging their top foot through vertical twice each revolution. A big marginal loss in power. But all three factors interact dynamically so it requires trial and error to develop a relatively sustainable aero position. Just my two cents.
It's not rocket science. Spend an increasing amount of time in the aero position on your training rides. If certain muscles get fatigued then train those muscles off the bike.
I’ve learned tons from this series. I hope you do more like this Dylan, and a shout out to Josh for being so clear and forthright.
Keep these up Dylan! I love your deep peer reviewed dives into fitness and equipment gains but the interviews are a great change up. Keeping the content fresh is paramount to keeping the viewer entertained and informed. I'd love to hear a video talking about common pains cyclist experience on longer rides, and ways to alleviate them.
love the format, it's great to see those gains against each others. would love to see some comments on races and what could be apply to change the output. Great one Dylan
That position of yours on the bike (when on the road) looks fast! 🙌 Such a big fan of Josh! Thanks for this series!
man, that "climbing vs aero gradient depends on the power" is so important. Ever since manufacturers started talking about that 6% line, my question has always been "yeah, but at what power and w/kg". Obviously aero is going to matter a lot more for a rider at 400W and 6w/kg. But I'm at 270 and 4.2, when all my local climbs are 6% or more, and it's a no-brainer.
This is one hell of good quality interview and information sharing. Chapeau mate 💪💪💪
This series put me on to the marginal gains podcast and I've now binged almost every episode
So much good information in this video. Congrats Dylan, I really enjoyed this series
LOVE (!!!!) the interview style videos! The ones with Dr.Seiler were amazing as well. Keep em coming Dylan and thx for everything!
all 3 interviews answered a lot of speculation I have acquired over the past several years...great series!
Such a great series of videos! Stephen Seiler would be such a great guest!! I could see it being a really engaging conversation and i've seen him interviewed on other youtube channels, so he definitely makes himself available. He's such a dynamic thinker about performance and a really cool mind in general. Thanks for the great content!
This whole series has been excellent and you are actually quite good at interviewing guest.
Great stuff! Love the techy technical information. Keep it up and I look forward to future videos!
Good stuff Dylan. Just started using Josh’s chain wax! It’s amazing how much cleaner everything stays.
Great vid, I appreciate the low cost ways to improve performance as a recreational rider
Best description Ive ever heard of how ‘tripping the air’ reduces drag. Thanks. 👏👏
Really great video and guest. He never dodges a question the way he dodges the wind.
I enjoyed this series Dylan. Good questions, knowledgeable guest. Well done. 👍
Great interview. Thanks Dylan and Josh.
Best guest on the channel. Great synergy of content.
This was an excellent series. Well done. Keep doing the interview format. Would love it if you got Dr. Herman Pontzer on to talk about Constrained Energy Expenditure theory. It is fascinating and important information for us cyclists.
Brilliant interview,far superior and more satisfying than the “GCN does science” fluff.
About on the same level of wanketeering!
I was on to all this 15 years ago as Vroomen and White started Cervelo ... more that 50% of my multiple successes, including National Championships were just because I kept my tight fitting jersey zipped up amongst other such items and that kept me saving power over much younger, stronger riders which left me more matches to burn in the closing stages :-)
Dylan, this is the best video in your channel! I’ve watched it at least 4 times
Great series of vids. I will never look at my skinny calves in the same way again. And gave up calf raises years ago.
I love it when Dylan gets his geek on. Great video. It's amazing how many WT pros don't take this seriously.
Doing bike related research on YT, I came across the savings made by going to midsole clipless shoes and shorter crank length. Just a few MM’s was huge!!!
Goes to show when doing a MTB race old school tight cycling jersey & Lycra shorts are the best option even though the trend in MTB clothing is baggy.
Well this interview series has been awesome & I will say that your interview style has been exceptional for somebody who normally features themselves (and their alter ego) in podcasts. So often I've seen other podcasters try this and wind up listening to that podcaster spend an hour primarily talking while the guest just sits there, smiles, and nods. So, pretty good start. Dan Bigham. 'What would you do to make a gravel bike & rider faster?'
This was dope Dylan. Thank u for this. I learned a lot, and I am one of those who were like "...aero socks?" I am now a believer. I'm also gonna just check my clothing to see where I can make some changes.
Thanks Dylan - as usual, hugely informative and, totally gripping.
very interesting, especially around the aero socks, at the beginning. I am a big biker, not so relatively speaking weight is not an issue, but all good stuff, look forward to your next bunch of videos, keep up the good work :)
Wow, excellent guest! Very well spoken and obviously knows his stuff.
This has been a great series DJ! 🍻
Loved these discussions, thanks for sharing.
Great series. Thank you! The discussion on weight reminds me of a story a friend told me. He was, in his younger days, into cycling and bikes etc and was dreamily eying the latest, lightest (a nice easy metric for manufactures etc to focus on) bike. A conversation with the bike shop owner went to and fro about weight saving, price etc before the guy suggested, rather bluntly, that he might be better off running round the block a few times and losing some weight!
I have become less interested in weight since wrapping myself in 25kg of DF velomobile for my daily commute. Previously, my best time for the 22km to work was about 45 mins on a bottom of the range Cruzbike recumbent (approx. 35 degree seat angle). That was a full gas effort. Best time on the DF - 36 mins, not eyes-popping-out effort as it gets too scary to be doing 60kmph on bad road surfaces etc. I am 53 and in no great shape. Could lose 5-7 kg! Aero is king! Now to find some low friction chain tubes… gains…
Nice one. Looking forward to the time when we have solar paint to add some additional horse power to the human power. The downside of a velomobile is probably safety in situations where normal cars commute, as it so small and can easily be overlooked and probably not very safe in case of collisions in general. With great speed comes great responsibility unfortunately.
Years and years of knowledge and tinkering my Josh Poertner.
Curious mind. Observant eyes
Loved this series (although my aero will always be determined by the large protuberant mass below my chest and above my waist)!!! Keep them coming.
Just make sure you develop some dimples on it.
Good stuff, I had already planned on making some aero upgrades for next summer, so this is helpful. Wheels deeper than 38mm, aero bars and aero helmet, aero jersey's is all I wear. Bikes are expensive, so I never understood dirty bikes. I always say a clean chain is a fast chain.
Wauw ... will never laugh at my son when he insist having aero socks. I will in fact buy them for him! Great interviews - you are well prepared and good at letting the guest take his time to get to the point, sometimes with a great anecdote included as well. Keep it up. It could be fantastic if you interviewed some of the key stakeholders in the US gravel scene to get POVs on how gravel will develop - in US and globally. Will the same happen to the gravel scene as it did with road racing when UCI wanted control? What about UCI now throwing 1-2 gravel races in the schedule and want ownership of gravel world championship? There is so much to debate for the good of the grass roots in gravel.
@@gumzster It's not that surprising that aero socks would actually have big effect because your legs are the only part that's going faster than the whole bike. If regulations allowed it, I wouldn't be too surprised if we'll see some sock like things that are pulled over your shoes and socks to get rid of all the seams and crevices in your shoes and ankles.
Super interesting Dylan. Really, really enjoyed everything about this 👍
Dude you are so much more natural just talking live with someone! Definitely would love to see more of that! Thanks as always...
Yeah he was a bit of a robot before but I like both Dylan’s. Great to be mixing it up a bit.
Love the interview format. Perhaps you can get ex racers to talk about their older fitness plans that may still be around.
Triathlete here and for us aero is everything. On a road bike not so much because the biggest gains is in your position and you can only do so much on a road bike but that being said a helmet, assuming it works with you position can save a lot of drag but clothing is probably the biggest benefit. Aero road bikes are the least bang for your buck. The rider is the real drag. Not the bike.
This whole series has been awesome! Got me on to the marginal gains podcast too.
Hi Dylan, love the series, could you make a video on Lab testing, V02 max, lactate threshold and maybe even wind tunnel tests and when in the season to do them, how to accurately use the data, how to prepare for them and increase reliability across tests, track improvements etc.
All these were crazy interesting. Thanks for doing something different. It was really useful.
Thank you very much for very informative sessions. Big blessing 🙌 Be blessed amd have a awesome year of racing and be safe 🙏
Dylan, thank you for this topics! 🙏 Great information
I was a racing cyclist from age 15 to 36. I haven't touched my road bike since 2005, switching my focus to horses. It has been so interesting to watch these videos and learn about everything that I was doing wrong. Thank you Dyllan and Josh for such interesting information. The internet and youtube have made it so much easier to learn anything you want to learn about.
A clean horse goes faster?
Love this series with Josh. You definitely got me running down the rabbit hole with the Marginal Gains Podcast and Silca in general! Thanks for the content and thanks for the connection, Dylan.
Good stuff Dylan! We should all be aware too that all the advancements in bicycle tech itself, like decreasing TDF bike weight from 9.6 down to 6.8 kg during the 50-year time period from 1972 to now, and making some aerodynamic tweaks to the bikes themselves have amounted to a potential gain of less than 5%...A 5% gain is what we've got for 50 years of engineering/R&D time and tooling investments of $10s of millions. What an example of disproportionate investment for decreasing marginal gains, pathetic return on investment! Just doing a few tweaks to rider positioning and maybe changing our clothing a bit looks a lot more cost-effective.
source?
@@sakomeow First of all, just look at the average TDF stage speeds from 50 years ago to now (I'll assume that 50 years ago, in Eddy's days, there wasn't a serious doping problem. Also, back then, they didn't have training and dietary science that was up to today's level.). Secondly, I've done a few experiments using the Kreuzotter bicycle speed and power calculator. I think that's enough for now, but yes it would be nice to do a bit more rigorous investigation.
@@sakomeow In 1971, Merckx' average speed was 38.08 kph, and in 2021 Pogacar's was 41.17...only 8.1% faster than Merckx, and it'd be wrong to credit all of that 8.1% to the bicycle tech improvements. Really, for the thrill and struggle of the race, it doesn't matter one bit that the equipment has marginally improved, does it? We could just as well say that all riders have to use one single design and base it on the good ol' steel frames of 50 years ago.
Fascinating. Can't believe I'm going from here to ebay to look for aero socks. I'll never roll my eyes again. Thanks.
What a great conversation. I had to keep stopping to go buy stuff online :)
I'm going to wear 10 pairs of aero socks, that should save me at least 50 W.
So informative. Thanks mate ! I really enjoy all of your videos.
Great video, packed with a lot insightfull info!
Well done and very informative in a casual way.
Nerds winning the tour.
Great convo! Thx both of u
Awesome! Like I tell several of my Quantico MTB club mates, when it comes to how small/tight of a jersey you should have, "If it zips, it fits!" :)
I bought a Diverge in 2019 purely for the geromomitry. I have 2 wheelsets, one for road,one for gravel. I have, after 35 years, given up my mtb and not looked back. I still ride some of my mtb routes on gravel wheels and complete sportives on the road wheels. Love it.
I liked this a lot. It kept my attention all the way through.
I liked the interview series. I'd love to see what you and Jeff from NorCal cycling could discuss about race strategy.
I believe that a key to getting aero is to get a bicycle with standard stem and handlebars, because it's body position that counts, as you stated, and that trumps the aero savings of proprietary stem/handlebar combinations that cannot be tweaked.
You are right and one has to realize, the proprietary things in most cases have nothing to with getting the customer faster, but with corporate greed, and locking in the user to an ecosystem.
Proprietary stuff is mostly bullshit and to lock in the customer like the other dude said. If you’re not a pro it’s not going to make the difference between winning and losing anyway
Appreciating all of your poignant videos. Really enjoyed the info here and see what we can change in our own setups. Just signed up for my first gravel race after not racing a bike for 30 years. Thanks for all the help, Dylan.
Could you make a video on specifically XC MTB training.
Great interview! Loved the detail
awesome, keep up this kind of content!
Absolutely fantastic series!
Keep doing these. You are a good interviewer!
Loved this series. Your science based videos got really turned up to 10 and for me, that was awesome. It was also a great break for your typically very repetitive video style which I do love because its very analytic and to the point but this gave it a very welcome, fresh feel.
Brilliant stuff - cheers Dylan
Great series, Dylan!!!
Coming from a car and motorcyle racing background I've really started loving cycling because of the really small margins. I've had a lot of fun taking all of the mechanical and engineering knowledge I've learned from those disciplines over the years and applying it all to cycling and seeing what sticks. Currently experimenting with vortex generators and some winglets on the front half of the bike with the goal of redirecting air away from the rider position.
This sounds interesting. And considering how voxtex generators are used in F1 cars, you could do pretty magical things with road bikes if regulations are not too strict.
@@MikkoRantalainen But sadly, the regulations ARE quite draconian from the world governing body over most of cycling (the infamous UCI). 😡
They seem to ban/restrict even the most benign appearing non-structural (and even some of the actual structural) aero 'add-ons', as well as tube length to section width/shape ratios, seat tube angles, wheelbases, rider positioning, etc. ☹
I just subscribed because of this video, amazing content! keep up the good work!
Really enjoyed each of these.
Great content, well presented and super informative.
Adding up all the watts we could gain from all those advices, i feel like I'm now more than ready to win the next Tour de France :-)
Jokes aside, I've always ridden with cheap running socks... I'm quite astonished by the actual gain "real" cycling socks can bring... definitely be looking seriously to this particular marginal gain!
Great stuff! I'll get some aero socks and enjoy the watt savings when I sail down a hill - so that I can actually reach 50 km/h!
Dream interview: talk training, work/life balance, and the realities of being a businessman with Pete Stetina! Absolutely loved this series, man, please keep it up : )
Abus Gamechanger helmet, Michelin Latex Tubes and Turned-in shifters did the magic for me. I swear by them for speed gains.
Great questions Dylan! 👏
Dylan, I am again impressed by your high quality content. A real highlight within the mass of blabla YT vids 👌🏽
Love the “eyeball wind tunnel”!
Great one! Thanks for your work. 🙂
Really enjoyed this tech series!
Dylan, love your work. Please do a video on types of aero positions on a road bike
Weight barely mattering until 7-8% is crazy! Definitely a lesson learned.
I was expecting to hear it at 3-4%
I can listen to Josh Porter for days. LOVED both videos and I think is an awesome addition to your already great video style.
You also ask the right questions which is the most important part of an interview, obviously. Thanks Dylan!
More useful content - kid you just can't stop doing the good. Thanks