'Schools are producing prototypes for the professional game' | Club rugby issues | DUNNE & THORNLEY
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- Andy Dunne and Gerry Thornley are alongside Joe Molloy on Wednesday Night Rugby.
The lads discuss the struggles that AIL clubs have when international games kick off at the same time as AIL matches, and the role of schools in preparing players for international rugby.
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Crazy to be playing club games at same time as Ireland are playing.
Nothing crazy about it, it's not like rugby is such a great sport. Barely anyone plays it, hence why Ireland are the only good side out there.
If it interferes with the football, than we have a problem
@@Baz502 the rugby World Cup is literally the third most watched sporting event in the world?
@@thenordicescape Exactly, as Ireland has fans all around the world. If it wasn't for Ireland, probably nobody would be supporting rugby. I haven't checked the rugby world cup history, but I'd assume Ireland have dominated that stuff too
@@Baz502 your assumption would be incorrect. Maybe go do some research and get back to me
@@thenordicescape Oh there is a team called All Blacks. They're like a top tier Premier league football club I see, who bought their trophies. Have Adidas sponsorship too.
So overall, I can conclude that Ireland is the only respectable rugby side out there, other than England of course who invented the game
I had the privilege of coaching youth at London Welsh RFC.
The mindset was simple. Club, County and if you were unfortunate Country.
Whilst that was the focus it was acknowledged that not all would prevail but the ethos was rugby as a way of making friends in any town in any country.
I'm proud to say that the lads responded and have been successful across the board.
I like this Dunne and Thornley combination.
Two Points: We need the club game to introduce and keep more people in the sport - it cant just be a game for private school boys. Get the AIL on the tv (scheduled properly) and reinvest throughout the leagues to build the club game back up to its former glory.
A huge problem with the game now is the sheer size of the players and the ferocity of the collisions. It was grand to have 6 club teams lining out in the 80's when professionals weighed 12 stone soaking wet. Nowadays your average rugby player is ginormous... its hard to keep getting mangled three times a week and show up to work on a Monday. Injuries are bad enough for the pros but can you really expect amateurs to risk a broken collar bone or a concusion when they have jobs and families relying on them?
Well said. Once you leave school and move on to an environment were rugby isn't a big interest among your peers there's little incentive to wreck your body week in and week out by playing against grown men with years of mass gained in the gym. It's worth it for schoolboys and professional players but for everyone else it's hard to justify the time needed and risk of injury. It would be different if there were thousands or even hundreds of fans watching the games, but given the lack of viewership and outside interest it's just not that appealing.
Our local club can't field a team from u14 to u18. The schools won't let them play for the club. It's totally unsustainable.
Where??
@@odin8010 Leafy north County Dublin.
@@greattobeadub Ah sure we all know its Tarf. Mon Tarf!
@@rosscoghlan The Belvo curse. The Leinster development squad is also an issue. Once a lad gets in there, he's never seen at the club again.
This is incorrect surely....I was at Tarf u13A game recently, they have B team too...the U14/u15 Tarf team play in mt temple every Sunday....clontarf supplies alot of players to CUS & Belvo, a few go to Michaels, Rock, Clongowes, rest remain local..they are fully permitted to continue playing with club once not in a jct or sct squad.. it would be overload to train twice a WK with both school and club plus weights plus match at wkend x2
Will Gerry and Andy ever fall out lol.
It's surprisingly a nice dynamic even with the lack of disagreement
I'd like to them in a fight outside. Be interesting, who would win?
We're in exactly the same position here in England. I coach an under 16's club side who've been competitive up to under 15's. We brought the lads through the system from micros and minis age groups, nurturing them, watching them grow in confidence, then at under 15's the local rugby playing school pinched half our squad, and we now struggle to put a team out on Sundays, we have to borrow players from other clubs, and other local clubs are in the same position. Shocking.
" then at under 15's the local rugby playing school pinched half our squad," How do schools pinch players from rugby clubs? Do the schools pay the kids??!?!
Did the school give them scholarships to the school?
Great discussion
What's there to discuss? Rugby isn't much of a discussion. Stick to the football lads
Go to most home Young Munsters games. Great atmosphere if smallish crowds
You should go to Leinster games, more value for money
@iAgreeToo This discussion is about club rugby not province's.
@@foxyboiiyt3332 he's trolling on the comments this fella pay him no heed.
Still waiting on the irfu to make some effort in trying to grow the game just outside the m50. Tallaght blanchardstown etc.
May what needed is an independant all Ireland academy. Where talent from clubs could be recognised early!
This happens in England too and will take rugby in the same direction as American football where elite players are filtered early out of school into college programs.
The downside of this is that there is practically no such thing as community, grassroots American football.
Ireland might get away with it but I think in England where Rugby co-exists with the participation and spectator juggernaut of association football it might well suffer.
Hey! I lived and died for the British and Irish cup! Lol
I played with a lot of good players club level Who would have gone pro they going to private school and got high quality coaching unfortunately it’s very rare that players get selected playing club rugby. A handful of players. I knew I’ve only one player on my team have got brought up to Leicester and he was an outstanding centre and flyhalf One of the most skilful players I ever played against and with. Then I went to a rugby in French Academy in the south of France directed by a real coach I spent 10 days they’re getting the kind of coaching school rugby gets. When I got back to my team club team I was so used to playing with the schools players that I expected people to be on my shoulders and trail running for offloads with me. The drop-off and quality due to the coaching and fitness is night and day. I think the IRFU need to work with the clubs more and run more management clinics with the club team managers.
it really will become a rich mans game and the system will die. Look at wales for gods sake. you need the clubs
Wales are struggling because they don’t have any rugby schools
@T their struggling because it became a money game in wales. as soon as it did, curruption and missmanagement of funds came into play. you can see it starting in Ireland already. look at the rds new stand funding. The initial figure was 15m for the stand, and now that's magically balooned to 40m after it got reviewed by the higherups. Only saving grace for that i suppose is that instead of the royal dublin society footing the bill they can afford, their instead scalping tax money from the government for it
Aww so sad, like most people care if rugby survives or not. There's always football lads
@@Baz502 rugby actually sells out the Aviva stadium, unlike soccer. Don't know what you're getting on about there. 🎣
@@aidandinneen9149 probably supports an English team anyway
The discussion misses one important point and that is the huge percentage of the players that have played youth / mini club rugby who are so called schools products. Johnny Sexton was a Bective mini, that's where it literally began for him. Josh VDF is heavily routed in Wicklow RFC. Ryan Baird and Andrew Porter were youths players with Old Wesley. The top players are groomed from that point, the schools are a mid-point. If you lose club rugby, you lose a percentage of these players to other sports and we would never see them play beyond that. These are only the players I have seen first-hand. I imagine that the club background of the entire squad would be interesting, most of the players will have played before secondary school, worth a look Gerry and Andy? People might value the clubs if they really understood how they are used and produce players, more often than not clubs loose their players to schools between U13s to U19s. Schools then spit them out and the school players are more often than not lost to rugby as the schools have no interest in players beyond 6th year. I have observed schools treating players like fodder, that’s one of the reasons why these kids give up.
Doris=ballina minis
best duo
No club games here in Wales when the intnl team is playing and most players/fans either go to the local club to watch the game or go down to Cardiff. They're cutting out a huge chunk of rugby fans by having club games on at the same time.
It would probably be more exciting to look at a club game then looking at Wales at the moment.
@@jackdeegan3617 Haha yeah you're probably right.
and if you don't get the Podcast crud?
4 farm players is pretty good
Schools havnt produced a international quality half back in 20 years. All Irish lions players were clubs and foreign. Except one I think. Schools produce the majority but clubs produce the best players hands down. Fact
survivorship bias no?
@@cathalobrien7678 survivorship bias is precisely why we keep presuming the schools are the best place to look for players.
Oh and one other thing, the levels of doping in the pro game are a scandal on a par with cycling waiting to happen.
The Irish team have looked particularly suspect of late...
@@cathalobrien7678 what has been suspect? Spewing lies and heresy
Is there any evidence of this?
Stuart McCloskey went to a weak rugby school, was picked up via club system with Dungannon.
Stuart McCloskey went to a rugby school that produced 12 Irish internationals such as Bryn Cunningham and Mark McCall. Ulster coaches have traditionally preferred fully formed players as opposed to developing their own. If players only develop with game-time then McCloskey matured into a fully formed player at Dungannon. If the club system really worked in Ulster then there would be more representation in Division 1A.
@@christiaantheron9080 Bryn Cunningham was never a full Irish international. The last one from there was Kieron Dawson and before that Mark McCall, where are you pulling 12 from?! Was a decent rugby school, now wouldn't even be in the top 10 of Ulster Rugby schools. McCloskey wasn't near the radar of any provincial teams as a schools player, as BGS is weak.Good academically, but rugby? No.
350 million goes to private schools every year
Kids aren't playing rugby around the world. Dropping everywhere.
Because it's not a safe game, don't want me kids getting head injuries cuz of some overweight fool breaking the rules.
I coached Kazakhstan and worked within Asia Rugby for many years and I can tell you this isn't correct. The GIR (Get into rugby) program brought 1 million new players to the game in Asia after Rio OG's 2016 - admittedly 7's but.... its growing everywhere other than where Mammy doesn't want little Johnny getting injured.
@@johnphelan6623 fair, should have clarified I meant "traditional rugby powers". Latter point I disagree, it is just unplayable unless you have the money to find a school that does it.
@@Mr91Jmay maybe that’s what you find in Dublin (if that’s where you are based?) but my sons both play for a rugby school in Munster and a local club too and both are fully supportive of each other to be quite honest with you.
@@Mr91Jmay but generally speaking and maybe just approaching from different angles, maybe we are actually in agreement because there is no elitism to the game in many countries where it is growing -it’s just a sport! No social connotations in Kazakhstan for instance - it’s actually very refreshing to be involved in it there if I’m honest
I can never understand how the 4 Provinces of Ireland are allowed to compete against clubs of England, Scotland ,Wales.
Leinster isn't a club , it's made up of blokes from 12 counties .
Some of the clubs in Ireland are Cork Con from Cork in Munster, Clontarf from Dublin in Leinster , Garryowen from Limerick in Munster . These are the clubs that should be competing against Cardiff, Harlequins etc .
"I can never understand"
Ne'er a truer word spoken
Scotland and Wales also field provincial teams you do understand that right?
4 main teams in Wales aswell mate
The Irish clubs are much smaller than their English counterparts, much smaller grounds, much smaller hinterland to select players from etc. London has a population greater than the island of Ireland and has three clubs in the English rugby Premiership, and in the other lower divisions. In that context the provincial model is more appropriate for Ireland, especially as the provincial model for competition had already existed prior to professionalism and each province had its own rugby identity. It allows for economies of scale.
Scotland and Wales have tried to copy the Irish model, but Scotland lost the Border Reivers and Wales are likely to lose a team next year. The 'regions' aren't clubs as you suggest, they are an attempt to create artificial provinces but without the identity, history or allegiances that had already existed in Ireland. The provinces in Ireland have become 'clubs' though.
These are the clubs that should be competing……this is an incredibly naive perspective. Small amateur Irish clubs , against the professional clubs of Europe. Where to start 🤦🏻♂️
No to podcast.
There's a certain smugness about this podcast, whilst enjoyable i just can't get past it.
There certainly is a role, where do those school kids play their rugby up to12+ and often to 14, the clubs....
Look further at the players and lads tat are excelleing at club are being picked up by private schools at 14-15 for bursaries up to to their leaving certs...