I did this test 3 times 20 yrs ago using 3M panel bond vs 10 true spotwelds on 4 inch sheetmetal panels and the adhesive ripped the spotwelds out each time. It is the best out there.
I worked in industrial coatings and adhesives mfg in the QC lab and this testing wouldn't pass out the door , if there isn't equal consideration in the match up how can you say one is better than the other .
Wow, 5 rivets and only two spot welds against a wide area of adhesive. Nothing like stacking the deck. How about testing 10 rivets against two little dots of adhesive or side to side line welds against a couple of spots of adhesive?
Its not about which is stronger.. it demonstrates the differences; with rivets the substrate needs to have holes, which makes it weaker. Because rivets only clamp locally the peak stress is around the rivet and so the hole is where it breaks, while adhesives have evenly spread stress. Rivets, welds and adhesives are not competitors but options with different aspects that should be considerd while desinging. Hybrid bonds use the best aspect of 2, for example rivets in the beginning and at the end, with adhesive in between; the best of both worlds :)
@@jaapruwaard7531 This video was not about the relative merits of each fastening method, it was trying to make adhesives look good and other techniques look bad. A properly made rivet joint or spot welds would have performed much differently. A video discussion pros and cons of each method would have been great. This was not that video. This was a one-sided distortion attempting to make adhesives look superior, which they are often not. I have no qualms flying in an 80 year-old riveted airplane. I would have great pause flying in an airplane held together with 80 year-old adhesives.
@Sal Spencer I guess you have never seen a properly riveted or welded structure. Take a close look at the rivet spacing and number of rows of rivets the next time you board an airplane. This was a rigged demonstration to ensure that the rivets and welds failed. I suspect the rivets were also aluminum rather than stainless steel.
@Sal Spencer I’m saying I would never hire you if you have that background and can’t recognize an adequate number of rivets. FYI - I am a retired structural engineer and still a licensed professional engineer in two states.
Although we always recommend clamping, in this case we did not.Clamping ensures a bondline thickness between 150-250 microns, which is ideal. Without clamping there is the risk of a thicker bondline that will give a lower lapshear strength, plus there is the risk of movement of the 2 parts when curing.
It's all about stress distribution. The adhesive distributes the stress along the entire edge of the seam, while the rivets obviously concentrate the stress at the holes. of course the riveted joint isn't as strong-- this is not representative of how riveted joints are designed. Likewise, the spot welds concentrate stress. If adhesive was categorically superior, we wouldn't see billions of rivets taking to the sky every day. Adhesive may eventually replace rivets, but since rivets have established process controls and mature understanding of the engineering, expect rivets to remain relevant for many decades to come.
I know this video is old, need to test area of bond vs the area of the rivets and welds. Two welds does not equal the area of all that glued area. It would have been better to test in a load rig or some sort like an Instron to keep the loading in plane and show load figures.
In the real world, that's not a fair comparison; for example, attaching aircraft skin to the rib flange, one is limited to the amount of rivets, but the adhesive can cover the entire area. And it's quicker, and much less labor intensive.
Ok so one breaks differently. Since you didn’t show the tension we don’t know which one held up longer or stronger. GET a gauge and show the results, very basic to comparing.
Thanks for your reply! But no need to test :) At 500 Fahrenheit (=260 C) the Lap Shear Strength is reduced to 3N/mm2 (3MPA) which is comparable to a 1C elastic adhesive (silicone / SMP). LSS at RT = 25 Mpa, peak strength is at 40C (104 Fahrenheit) at 30Mpa. So the adhesive would be torn apart at hese high temperatures. BTW, if you dont apply load at 500 degrees and let it cool down to RT, there would be no degredation of strenght. So, yeah; adhesive are limited by temperature. Normal bonds (for example in automotive) would need a resistance only of 185 degrees F. This adhesive is suitable for steel bonding and than could go through a powdercoat-oven (normally done at 356F). Our customers experience great benefits with this adhesives bonding steel and then powdercoating! Very nice design benefits compared to welding or rivetting; nice smooth invisible bonds. This adhesive for sure has esthetic benefits.
@@jaapruwaard7531 My point exactly. Comparisons like this should list pros and cons, but instead are designed to make one solution look like the only solution. I am familiar enough with materials to know the weak points of each which is why I introduced temperature in regards to epoxy adhesives. 😀
I did this test 3 times 20 yrs ago using 3M panel bond vs 10 true spotwelds on 4 inch sheetmetal panels and the adhesive ripped the spotwelds out each time. It is the best out there.
As in the spot weld held better ? or the glue?
I worked in industrial coatings and adhesives mfg in the QC lab and this testing wouldn't pass out the door , if there isn't equal consideration in the match up how can you say one is better than the other .
Wow, 5 rivets and only two spot welds against a wide area of adhesive. Nothing like stacking the deck. How about testing 10 rivets against two little dots of adhesive or side to side line welds against a couple of spots of adhesive?
Its not about which is stronger.. it demonstrates the differences; with rivets the substrate needs to have holes, which makes it weaker. Because rivets only clamp locally the peak stress is around the rivet and so the hole is where it breaks, while adhesives have evenly spread stress. Rivets, welds and adhesives are not competitors but options with different aspects that should be considerd while desinging. Hybrid bonds use the best aspect of 2, for example rivets in the beginning and at the end, with adhesive in between; the best of both worlds :)
@@jaapruwaard7531 This video was not about the relative merits of each fastening method, it was trying to make adhesives look good and other techniques look bad. A properly made rivet joint or spot welds would have performed much differently. A video discussion pros and cons of each method would have been great. This was not that video. This was a one-sided distortion attempting to make adhesives look superior, which they are often not. I have no qualms flying in an 80 year-old riveted airplane. I would have great pause flying in an airplane held together with 80 year-old adhesives.
@Sal Spencer I guess you have never seen a properly riveted or welded structure. Take a close look at the rivet spacing and number of rows of rivets the next time you board an airplane. This was a rigged demonstration to ensure that the rivets and welds failed. I suspect the rivets were also aluminum rather than stainless steel.
@Sal Spencer I’m saying I would never hire you if you have that background and can’t recognize an adequate number of rivets. FYI - I am a retired structural engineer and still a licensed professional engineer in two states.
@Sal Spencer Do you know how little I care?
Although we always recommend clamping, in this case we did not.Clamping ensures a bondline thickness between 150-250 microns, which is ideal. Without clamping there is the risk of a thicker bondline that will give a lower lapshear strength, plus there is the risk of movement of the 2 parts when curing.
It appears to me that it was the very thin material which failed. If thicker material were riveted... the fail point may have been different.
The rivets didnt fail the tin can did
It's all about stress distribution. The adhesive distributes the stress along the entire edge of the seam, while the rivets obviously concentrate the stress at the holes. of course the riveted joint isn't as strong-- this is not representative of how riveted joints are designed. Likewise, the spot welds concentrate stress.
If adhesive was categorically superior, we wouldn't see billions of rivets taking to the sky every day. Adhesive may eventually replace rivets, but since rivets have established process controls and mature understanding of the engineering, expect rivets to remain relevant for many decades to come.
I know this video is old, need to test area of bond vs the area of the rivets and welds. Two welds does not equal the area of all that glued area. It would have been better to test in a load rig or some sort like an Instron to keep the loading in plane and show load figures.
In the real world, that's not a fair comparison; for example, attaching aircraft skin to the rib flange, one is limited to the amount of rivets, but the adhesive can cover the entire area. And it's quicker, and much less labor intensive.
I have seen many bridges made with Adhesive XD
What the heck ? No explanation at all waht is the best
Ok so one breaks differently. Since you didn’t show the tension we don’t know which one held up longer or stronger. GET a gauge and show the results, very basic to comparing.
Was the adhesive clamped during bonding?
David Ryan Adhesive breaks down though
welding rated at 70,000 lbs per sq in and one knows what the adhesive is rated at per/sq inch.
Not really a Scientific Test.
I could repeat this test and heat the test samples up to 500 degrees with a torch and show what happens to them under load. 😁
Thanks for your reply! But no need to test :) At 500 Fahrenheit (=260 C) the Lap Shear Strength is reduced to 3N/mm2 (3MPA) which is comparable to a 1C elastic adhesive (silicone / SMP). LSS at RT = 25 Mpa, peak strength is at 40C (104 Fahrenheit) at 30Mpa. So the adhesive would be torn apart at hese high temperatures. BTW, if you dont apply load at 500 degrees and let it cool down to RT, there would be no degredation of strenght. So, yeah; adhesive are limited by temperature. Normal bonds (for example in automotive) would need a resistance only of 185 degrees F. This adhesive is suitable for steel bonding and than could go through a powdercoat-oven (normally done at 356F). Our customers experience great benefits with this adhesives bonding steel and then powdercoating! Very nice design benefits compared to welding or rivetting; nice smooth invisible bonds. This adhesive for sure has esthetic benefits.
@@jaapruwaard7531 My point exactly. Comparisons like this should list pros and cons, but instead are designed to make one solution look like the only solution. I am familiar enough with materials to know the weak points of each which is why I introduced temperature in regards to epoxy adhesives. 😀
Racetho