Weaves look better but damn now we have some actual evidence that stringers are stronger... Great video thanks for taking the time to do all this testing I’m sure everyone appreciates it 🙏
This popped on UA-cam today. The main reason that stringers are stronger is because each stringer normalizes the previous bead. This means that the grain structure within each bead becomes small roundish grains. Forming a tight chain. Weaving tends to give a jagged structure called columnar crystals. There is also less chance of the formation of hydrogen pockets, which can lead to hydrogen induced cracking. The test used on oil platforms in cold environments like those in the North Sea is COTD (Crack Tip Open Displacement). This is where a small notch to simulate a crack is put into a material. The material is cyclic loaded like bending a can back and forth. This is done to replicate wave motion. After a number of days, the specimen is measured to see how far the crack has run and also to see how much it has opened. The tighter the grain, the better are the results. Sorry if too technical. Love the videos by the way, keep them coming.
I’m not sure what you’re doing with your arms but usually you tend to do a “windshield wiper” motion rather than your arm moving horizontally so it causes your bead to curve a bit
I'm a hobbiest welder but also an engineer so I'm really geeking out on this data. This is super educational and well done. I was a fan of weaving with my little MIG until today. You changed my thinking. Will add this to my playlists and add it to my personal favorites list as well.
i'm the same, welding 10mm thick is a big day for me, mostly 6mm 3mm stuff. also i've never seen a mig set leave a slag cover like that before, is that the wire type or flux coating or something?
As a CWI I love seeing someone do a legit test like this. I hear from so many welders that "there's no difference" and this is a great video to show them
Also stringers has less thermal deformation due to shrinking - only the last string connects both material "coasts" to pull it together. For high pressure steam piping (heat treatment to release tension, X-rays tested) I've seen strings only. There is a good reason why those critical welds (where human life depends on it) are forced to be strictly a string only. For those critical applications whole weld procedure has to be tested and certified before applied on site.
Terry dodson it was not an honest test to hold your weld metal at 350 or below the stringer passes had less heat an more time to cool if you would of stopped your weave passes about half way an let them cool back to 350 degrees an then finished your weld especially when you were over half way through the weld . There's notably way more heat in a weave pattern especially as you get closer to your cap. I have been a welder for over 35 years ,an stringer verses weave has always been a debate over with was best .most companies I have worked will not let you run weaves over a certain size most want stringers .Really good test though never have seen one so done by the aws labs before nice job,enjoyed the video.
FYI weaves are used in the field with certain applications to stress relief the previous pass (smaw). Weaving is also faster production with smaw. Put two welders welding pipe. If one runs stringers and the other weaves, the weaves will finish faster every time. Seems to burn hotter which makes sense with all the local heat.
Thank You, There aren't enough video's about the higher end welding applications. We don't have a lab where I work, so we send off samples to be tested for WPS docs. So this is a great learning tool. One of the larger companies recently added a requirement that on every WPS ( welding procedure specification ) must state that no bead be larger than 3 rods wide. If your using 1/8" that means that the single stringer bead can be no wider than 3/8". Thanks again.
Pass 4 labeled weave when pass was stringer. then weave was labeled as a stringer. But I absolutely love the welding, the cross section, the testing, everything was friggin amazing.
Yea don’t know much about either both looked to be about the same but noticed it was labeled wrong very quick after I noticed stringer was one line and weave was a wider pass
ME in training here. We covered this type of testing last semester in my materials course. Very interesting to see practical applications for it. One thing that a super rigorous experimenter might do to further reinforce the results would be to run the tests on several sets of samples, all welded by different people, just to make sure that any individual technique variation would be averaged out. Cool video!
@@Farlig69 You're testing the weld strength, so you want the weld bead to be in the middle of the specimen. Which means perpendicular specimen. There would be no point in testing pure weld metal. The plate is a known material, with known properties. The weld is not. You would not do test with different orientations. Not only that, but as long as the metal is in the middle, it wouldn't matter.
I’m officially the world’s newest newbie welder and I didn’t even know there was an age old argument... I still found the video absolutely mesmerising. Well done, more suspense than most TV dramas, thank you.
This was a great reminder. I’m about to weld up four 40’ tall wind generation towers that ‘break’ at the base to lay over for repairs. The spec is for 16 tonnes dynamic load. I’m going to be making up several of this type of joint and am glad for the reminder. I’m a farmer and not a welder by trade so these videos are real life savers!
I am a quality technician at an aluminum extrusion plant doing a lot of tensile test every day. I was totally geeking out during your test segment. Thank you for including that! Very interesting and fascinating
This is a phenomenal video! Thanks for putting this together. I'm sure there's a lot of hobby welders like myself that would love to see the results on thinner steel (say 3/16") with just gas shielding.
This is really really really good - good round-up of the just about all the basics - of welding, testing and understanding where weld properties come from - and I express this personal opinion from being a trained metallurgist, Ph.D. level scientist whose investigation was welds, and a practicing welder doing structural steelwork.
@@deconteesawyer5758 I am a commercial welder, mostly. I frighten most "in suits" types too much. Last weld I did boat hull repair they do 6013 wide-weave, I tried for quick reminder then switched to,7018 stringer. Works well for me. You can reach 150A v-up T-fillet 7018 if you stringer - and I don't believe you can get anywhere near that if you wide-weave (?)
@@deconteesawyer5758 This is excellent very objective evaluation. The answer is known, but they are displaying it all for you to see. A truth does not mind being questioned; a lie responds with ferocious anger trying to prevent anyone examining it. These people are surely being most generous inviting a truth to be both questioned and examined.
This vidjiou is a very infomative one. Total awesomeness. I hope you are going to continue comparing these two techniques also with other welding methods. I work in a shipyard, and the vessel structure welders aren't even allowed to weave. Now I can definitely understand why :D In a business where the structural welds will not be visible, the only thing that matters is strength. I salute you!
This was really interesting; my instructors back in my active college days didn't have a charpy machine, only tensile and u bend test rigs (this was back in the the early '90's), so seeing the same results with much more accurate testing equipment was awesome. Thanks for doing this, as well as confirming my faith in dual shield welding as (for the most part) the best of world's for structural work.
When I was doing D1.1 root/multi I always did stringer. What I did for the cert and what I kept doing. I was lucky enough to have Dennis Wright as a teacher. (Writer of the AWS GMAW process)
Man that's awesome. I would think that it would be common sense that stringers are stronger, but maybe I'm being full of myself. Anyway, you're lucky to have been taught by that guy.
I don't dispute the results at all. One observation; during the second test, the Weave samples sat chilling in the methanol for longer than the Stringer samples... would this have had an impact on the test? Or were they held at a constant temperature? Great video, enjoyed the detailed analysis. Thanks.
Thankyou, Very good and Scientific Data. I understand a bit better now how internal "soak" temperature can soften welds. The weave up near the top was quite excessive (and I expected inclusions there) but putting more metal down in one pass shows that is NOT better in the long run. The weave went down faster, BUT it was an in-effective weld and may fail in service, (depending on the purpose and specifications for the weld) my boss is always saying that I have to do the job "Faster" but this shows that this is not the "Right" way to do it.
What does any of this mean? Where am I? How did I get here? I was watching chickens in a coop 2 minutes ago. UA-cam.... What ya doin? But all jokes aside, I think I learned a lot from this, while not even knowing the first thing of anything welding or metal. Lot's of knowledge on display here, good quality.
@@MaineHomeShop Aye, now I can tell _Strings_ from _Weaves._ And know there's some MatheMagics™ going on under them. All *Very* interesting stuff. I don't own a welder. Haven't held one in years. And this vid is going in *Deep.* I don't think my mind can handle science of this magnitude! What I'm saying is: _Chickens are more my speed, right now._ :P [Edit: UA-cam doing it's double spacings thing again....]
Thank you for this. I am an uncertified welder, mechanic, fabricator, jack of all trade, master of a few. I was taught weave, on everything, I have used both, stringer mainly for vertical and overhead, but weave on everything else. This will change the way I weld a lot. Again, thank you!
Awesome video and test. Reminded me of teaching welding in the lab and teaching Metallurgy in the other lab alongside. In the end Heat soak and input is always greater packing on layers with a weave pattern. Get in and get out, applies with any process and any filler. Multiple hot consistent passes win hands down. We could pass test in all ways with tight, fused metal over slower fancy swipes!
nothing was laid to rest here ! he butchered is weaves by stretching them beyond beliefs ! what's wrong with all of you, no one noticed ? it's like hey lets see which car is the fastest with the same driver testing both but on one test the guy tries blindfolded and everyone says yeah well that other car sure was a lot faster than the one you tested blindfolded, that settles that age old question !! lol i could copy and paste that answer of mine to at least every second person...not worth my time,already wasted too much !
Worked as a metallurgist apprentice for while doing similar tests at a welding R & D company...I thought everyone knew the weaves were all look... BTW...your buddies at that lab have some nice toys. We focused alot on gas mixes. So fully controlled heat input and ambient. Fully controlled weld instruments and weld metals, fluxes and/or gasses. The weld samples were even prepped at specific sizes. The welder would run root to cap at specs in a tent and the sample was immediately placed in liquid nitrogen. From there a certain amount went into a gas analyzer, some we'd put in epoxy which would freeze the gasses escaping from the weld, and of course we'd use some for the tests conducted in this video, including the acid etching. People love the epoxy. The visual effect of seeing the escaping gas helps even the old welders put something they've been told their whole career exists into reality. Fun stuff. The welding and the testing.
The cap was ground off, but it still dumped a massive amount of heat into the part. I worked in a fab shop that built bridge beams. One of the "ol timer" types decided he was gonna weave instead of stringers, regardless of what the specs called for. They were told the steel would have to be scrapped (or used for shorter pieces if possible) because weaving dumped too much heat into the part. The beams had to be cut back 100mm to remove the tainted steel.
My instructor taught me to lay the root and fill with stringer, root being wider often, and cap with weave, I suppose that combines the strength of a stringer and the fancy eye piece of the elustrious weave
I truly appreciate the opportunity for these vicarious trainings. I do wish the presentation were not as fast paced. But they are detailed and clear. The greatest advantage is that I can repeat the videos often.
A great demo. I have gone through this myself at work. Lots of testing and qualification to meet Charpy requirements of the oil sands in Alberta Canada. We even had Lincoln visit us while testing their LA-71 wire to see what we could achieve. Keep in mind everything is thermally stress relieved which makes it harder to achieve. This knowledge is as old as dirt though. Stringer beads reduce heat input but also has a grain refining effect on the previous beads your are welding over. Also take a look at the essential variables table of a code book. They all limit bead width. Basically if you want to weave you need to qualify it.
Great video. To understand just how each weld affected the steel, a base line test would be beneficial. Test a sample of an un-welded section of the same material. Keep up the great work.
I totally agree. A baseline from each coupon was necessary to know the starting point. They measure the end up points, but they don't know how far they deviated from the starting point. So what do they really know?
The base metal, A36 in this case, has standardized properties and values. Testing the base metal would only serve the purpose of verifying that the steel mill wasn't cheating.
Thanks for getting to the point. Way too many video creators these days talk for the first 3 minutes without actually covering the content. Manufactures using primarily string welds in production finally makes sense.
Great vid. I've never welded in my life nor plan to. I literally knew nothing about welding but after watching your one video I know something about weaves and stringers, tolerances, testing , how the samples are cut and to switch gloves when you switch hands.
So a little tid bit on switching gloves hes wearing 2 different gloves, one is thicker protects from heat more (usually used with stick welding) and the other is thinner (usually used in tig welding) for more fine motor control. In case you didn't know why he was switching gloves when switching hands
Hell yea I learned something, and I didn't even have to pay ya! Thanks. Seriously though, I was surprised that the weave capped out first. Keeping an eye on interpass temps I would've bet that the stringers ran cooler.
The last time that I put _that_ much effort into analyzing a joint - was when the dispensary was closed and I had to buy a bag in a parking lot from a dude named Bort. (EDIT: Yeah, you read that right: Bort.)
I've been welding for over45 yrs now. Union Millwright in my younger days, transitioned to union Ironworker. I picked stringers before you tested. We were always taught to run stringers.
Awesome video! Would you please do one for the other styles of beads, like for the e, triangles etc? It would be nice to see the hierarchy of strength in the different weld bead styles. Thank you for doing this video!
@@jessewilliams4152 yes technically all steel is carbon steel, but you need enough carbon to actually harden it, in this case mild/structural steel don't have
Common sense would typically have you earning much more thumbs up with that comment. However, I've realized over the ages that common sense isn't common. bottom line, weaves aren't allowed in some certifications, they've been tested and found not up to par.
@@TechieTard Common sense would also refrain from redundantly repeating what was just stated. I mean, I know in engineering that redundancies are good n necessary, in this case no.
For the record, there's actually not a great deal of difference between a weave and a multi-run fillet, when performed with the requisite skill, in terms of penetration. Weaves, however, tend to impart excess heat into the material (as per the video) and are much easier to fuck up aesthetically, that's why they're usually excluded.
My gut expected no significant difference. I've always contended you should use what best suits the situation to give the minimum of 'mistakes' in the process and good gas cover. I always leaned to stringer mostly because it's faster. Learned something here. Thanks!
Gret technical vid and explanations about weaves vs stringers. For the importance of toughness, you gotta go stringer. Worked in rig shop, one new guy got bored and weaved up the side of mast joint... got fired... he was mouthy as heck... but he had no idea about how stingers refine that microstructure into small grain growth, and keep it small, the weaves are too soft and mast would fail. Man did he swear, only lasted about 4 hours... on that job.
Thank you for an informative video! Too bad you didnt take the x-ray at first to get an overview of the sludge. Eitherway it shows me that i'll need to enhace my welding and do stringers instead. Again; thank you. Greetings from Norway.
Great video dude! Love the science behind our welds! , However I'm in a structural shop and procedure does not allow weaving do to the sure fact too much room for error to trap slagg
In all my years as an ASME certified welder, I've never seen a GMAW/FCAW welding procedure with a 1/2" root opening for 1/2" plate. You can keep your interpass temp at 350F but your heat input from weaving will cause your cracking and lack of fusion problems. Most ASME customer required weldments would require a Joules requirement formula for heat input. Jobs and material to be used in environments of -20F would certainly require this.
@@dohabandit I agree. The issue of weaving in the middle portion of the weld as well as the cap pass. still presents problems with lack of fusion in the sidewall as well as the previous pass. My response is predicated on those who are welding under a certified weld procedure. For those in other welding circumstances, you do what is best for your particular need, but I believe stringers are the best for penetration and fusion ( if weld parameters are set right).
Do it again with 7018 1/8th rod. Everyone seems to weld pipe especially there cap with a wide weave. I run stringers myself. Curious on the differences
This is a good video looking at the differences in the weld metal properties. However, why didn't y'all look into side/root/face bend testing? From my understanding, these are common qualification tests.
Great testing methodology and video. Even though the result is pretty obvious, the end of every extensive comparison test where multiple techniques are used with somewhat varying results should result in a discussion/conclusion where the author sums up the results of the various tests into a conclusion that either states the winner and why or the pros and cons of each technique. You obviously did a lot of work producing this, it was certainly worthy of a wrap up containing a minute or two conclusion statement. Most importantly, a summarized conclusion at the end allows lazy people like me to get the “Cliff’s Notes” and results without watching the whole video lol. Otherwise kudos, we need more videos like this doing quality head-to-head comparison’s of age old debates that most opinions are based on personal experiences with a million variables and anecdotes. Thanks for the video!
Less slag entrapment with "stringers" besides none of the contractors I worked for allowed weaving , you would fail the test before if even got bent or X-Rayed . Retired Boilermaker 35yrs field work .
Yes i had my welding tested many years ago here in Canada and the teachings at that time was to never weave because it mixes impurities into the pool of malting metal and weakens your welding process. i did the welder fitters/ pipe course in the mid 90's and passed all my bend tests and that bend test on concave and convex pipe. we would fail if we did a weave weld for our tests back then. Pressure pipe was 6010 root and 7018 Stringers for the filler and cover passes, I remember for my cover passes the stringers looked like one weld but it was 3 passes Horizontal 3/8 plate was scratch start TIG Root and 7018 filler and cover. Even vertical and over head stick is 6010 root up hill and 7018 filler, stringers and cover stringers, I found it was easy for me, it all has to do with prep setup and heat settings. I nice when you heat is correct because the slag fall off on it own as it cools.
Critical note: On the tensile test, the stringer failed in a ductile manner with the line of failure basically horizontal. On the weave sample, the almost 45 degree line of failure indicates a brittle material. Why? Because ductile materials fail in the tension plane, while brittle materials fail in the shear plane. If you rotate a tiny cross section of a tensile test specimen 45 degrees that is the state of max shear. Look up Mohr's circle if you're curious. I'm actually quite surprised he didn't touch on that. Haven't watched V-notch yet, though.
almost every tensile test will break at a 45 degree angle. if it does not do that it could indicate a premature origin point. in that sample it was probably a massive slag line in the weld near the cap because of the giant weave taken while capping the weld because of lack of penetration. by the time he was welding on the other toe of the weld the puddle had already cooled to the point that he was just piling weld metal on top of the base metal (lack of penetration). it would have been interesting to see a cross section of the weave to check for non fusion near the cap of the weave weld.
Nice Esab Rebels. Got me the 205 ic AC/DC. Absolutely impressed with it. As for the welding. In my expierence as a pressure pipe welder, it's not really a debate as which is better. It's about procedure. Travel speed is critical, interpass temp is critical. As well as staying within the codes for weld width. If you travel too slow your overall heat input gets past the allowable tolerances and you are welding out of procedure. So I dunno if that annoys anyone, but it's my reality. Cheers.
While this test was pretty definitive, a 1-3/8" wide "weave" is absurd. Going over multiple valleys after the root pass is also not something I would think any weld would benefit from. Splitting and tripling the weave passes towards the top makes way more sense with something that large. I would have much rather watched a test with multiple smaller weaves and seen those results. Watching the puddle cool before he laps back on the "weave" makes me cringe.
He had many more stringer passes than weave passes. Not enough heat / feed / amperage or whatever you want to call it while he was doing the weave passes.
Exactly, too wide of a weave. That's why you put 2 to 3 Bead Cap on heavy walls. Even then he should of stacked the weaves after the hot pass 1/2 covering the previous weld. ABSURD!
Yeah you shouldn't be welding over lack of fusion, over multiple valleys, or in between two passes that aren't completely fused together with no space in between. It's not as bad of an idea with straight CO2, but if you need something to pass UT, it's never a good idea. I've welded over some pretty bad lack of fusion before with 3/32 dual shield running straight CO2 with the arc right on the toe that wasn't fused when I was in a hurry and it passed UT, but it's definitely not best practice.
I know this is an older video but I just watched it. The controversy over weave vs stringer has been on going probably since Lincoln, Hobart, Miller and Airco started making constant current welding machines. Former CWI/CWE and welding instructor for 31 years. I can say this without a doubt. This is a series of sample coupons done with one process in one position by one welder. Did we conclusively end the debate, as you mentioned "no". The list of variables to determine a conclusion would take multiple videos and an abundance of time. The truth of the matter is, Code dictates essential variables. As a certified welder one follows code. Code does not say you might or you can it says you will and it is law when used in a court room to prove liability. If it calls for no bead to exceed filler metal diameter by more than 4x, you as the welder follows code...not a video. As you mentioned, this is a fun place to start and the piece gave good eye candy if you're a nerdy kinda welder guy who is curious.
Super interesting video but you've got some captions wrong on your welds at least at around 7:20 and 7:50. You might want to check all your shots and re-edit as necessary. Again, I appreciate the time and effort you put into this and it's otherwise a great video.
I have been involved in pipeline and pressure vessel welding for over 40 years. Here are the basic differences: 1) Weaves have slightly higher productivity than stringers, especially on thick wall material, generally 3/4" thick and thicker; and, 2) Stringers have lower occurrences of porosity and undercut. It is also easier to do repair welds on stringers than on weaves. If the mechanical tests meet the specified requirement, then it doesn't really matter. Thank you for your consideration.
I love the science behind this and the detail to the info, but sometimes I wonder why I watch videos like this when all my welding is just weekend warrior projects lol.
@@GodslilRedneck23 thanks for the answer man. aprreciate it, i edited not to step on anyone`s toes. i much appreciated the job of your predecessors here. been welding for a long long time every ftime i learn something new. :D
Weaves look better but damn now we have some actual evidence that stringers are stronger... Great video thanks for taking the time to do all this testing I’m sure everyone appreciates it 🙏
spoiler! lol
Yup. I had the same thinking and today my mind was blown.
I don't know why, but I wanted the weaves to win lol
He also was doing single bead passes with the weave compared to multiple with the stringer.
Also looks like he’s using fluxcored process so weaving might be stronger on different processes like gtaw
This popped on UA-cam today. The main reason that stringers are stronger is because each stringer normalizes the previous bead. This means that the grain structure within each bead becomes small roundish grains. Forming a tight chain. Weaving tends to give a jagged structure called columnar crystals. There is also less chance of the formation of hydrogen pockets, which can lead to hydrogen induced cracking. The test used on oil platforms in cold environments like those in the North Sea is COTD (Crack Tip Open Displacement). This is where a small notch to simulate a crack is put into a material. The material is cyclic loaded like bending a can back and forth. This is done to replicate wave motion. After a number of days, the specimen is measured to see how far the crack has run and also to see how much it has opened. The tighter the grain, the better are the results. Sorry if too technical. Love the videos by the way, keep them coming.
I’m just happy when I can get a arc established and make a straight line.
Same!!
sniperdoug1969 and white
YEAP!!!!!!!!
On a mig? You have trouble making an arc?
I’m not sure what you’re doing with your arms but usually you tend to do a “windshield wiper” motion rather than your arm moving horizontally so it causes your bead to curve a bit
I'm a hobbiest welder but also an engineer so I'm really geeking out on this data. This is super educational and well done. I was a fan of weaving with my little MIG until today. You changed my thinking. Will add this to my playlists and add it to my personal favorites list as well.
i'm the same, welding 10mm thick is a big day for me, mostly 6mm 3mm stuff. also i've never seen a mig set leave a slag cover like that before, is that the wire type or flux coating or something?
Wint3rsmith He’s running duel shield, flux core wire but also 75/25
Must be Andrew Luck !
I'm gonna start working on my stringers as well
As a CWI I love seeing someone do a legit test like this. I hear from so many welders that "there's no difference" and this is a great video to show them
it is purely because of the heat buildup? i wonder if you weaved but started from the center and welded out would that change?
Also stringers has less thermal deformation due to shrinking - only the last string connects both material "coasts" to pull it together.
For high pressure steam piping (heat treatment to release tension, X-rays tested) I've seen strings only. There is a good reason why those critical welds (where human life depends on it) are forced to be strictly a string only. For those critical applications whole weld procedure has to be tested and certified before applied on site.
That's why my welding instructor, which was formerly an aerospace welder, said there's no place for that fancy looking shit and just weld straight.
LawF250 you mean formerly ?
@@business9854 Yeah, well I'm not perfect at grammar. My welding is better😂😂
LawF250 haha. Cheers!
LawF250 aerospace welder that shit sounds crazy
@@LawF250 Q: What do you say to a person who can't read, or write well?
A: Nice weld.
Weaving for superficial looks, stringers for core tensile strength. Great video. 👍
So do stringers up to your last pass, then do one weave to make it look fancy.
Terry dodson it was not an honest test to hold your weld metal at 350 or below the stringer passes had less heat an more time to cool if you would of stopped your weave passes about half way an let them cool back to 350 degrees an then finished your weld especially when you were over half way through the weld . There's notably way more heat in a weave pattern especially as you get closer to your cap. I have been a welder for over 35 years ,an stringer verses weave has always been a debate over with was best .most companies I have worked will not let you run weaves over a certain size most want stringers .Really good test though never have seen one so done by the aws labs before nice job,enjoyed the video.
@@terrydodson12 The fact that some welding certifications do not allow weaves tells me all i need to know about them
@@terrydodson12 time is money 🤑
FYI weaves are used in the field with certain applications to stress relief the previous pass (smaw).
Weaving is also faster production with smaw. Put two welders welding pipe. If one runs stringers and the other weaves, the weaves will finish faster every time. Seems to burn hotter which makes sense with all the local heat.
Jokes on you, I was pissed off before I clicked on this video.
That's my secret captain. I'm always pissed off.
Stringers = Stronger Weaves = Weaker the first letters are the same so its easier to remember.
@@mail-qh2qc weaves are worse for joint pain.
Depends on the kind of stress and load that the weld has to withstand.
Man... What a spoiler. I wanted to watch the whole 30 minutes before I found out.
Very well said👍👍
Well said, man 😂
Thank You, There aren't enough video's about the higher end welding applications. We don't have a lab where I work, so we send off samples to be tested for WPS docs. So this is a great learning tool. One of the larger companies recently added a requirement that on every WPS ( welding procedure specification ) must state that no bead be larger than 3 rods wide. If your using 1/8" that means that the single stringer bead can be no wider than 3/8". Thanks again.
Pass 4 labeled weave when pass was stringer. then weave was labeled as a stringer.
But I absolutely love the welding, the cross section, the testing, everything was friggin amazing.
yeah around 8 minutes they're labeled backwards i noticed too
Good, I’m not going crazier then I already am.
Yea don’t know much about either both looked to be about the same but noticed it was labeled wrong very quick after I noticed stringer was one line and weave was a wider pass
yup
They really need to sort this out
ME in training here. We covered this type of testing last semester in my materials course. Very interesting to see practical applications for it. One thing that a super rigorous experimenter might do to further reinforce the results would be to run the tests on several sets of samples, all welded by different people, just to make sure that any individual technique variation would be averaged out. Cool video!
Exactly, this & several samples testing tensile in different directions as well - parallel to the weld & perpendicular.
@@Farlig69 You're testing the weld strength, so you want the weld bead to be in the middle of the specimen. Which means perpendicular specimen. There would be no point in testing pure weld metal.
The plate is a known material, with known properties. The weld is not. You would not do test with different orientations. Not only that, but as long as the metal is in the middle, it wouldn't matter.
that hammer has to have some impressive microsecond reading
IMO when weaving one side cools down before you come back to it and that's a problem too
I’m officially the world’s newest newbie welder and I didn’t even know there was an age old argument... I still found the video absolutely mesmerising. Well done, more suspense than most TV dramas, thank you.
This was a great reminder. I’m about to weld up four 40’ tall wind generation towers that ‘break’ at the base to lay over for repairs. The spec is for 16 tonnes dynamic load. I’m going to be making up several of this type of joint and am glad for the reminder. I’m a farmer and not a welder by trade so these videos are real life savers!
Best part was when you switched hands to level up the weld - I've never seen that before and I learned something new! Thanks!
I am a quality technician at an aluminum extrusion plant doing a lot of tensile test every day. I was totally geeking out during your test segment. Thank you for including that! Very interesting and fascinating
Wow. That was amazing. Thanks for sharing. Next up. Rod vs wire.
just add in TIG and oxy acetylene welding just for good measure. would be fun to see the results of the different types of welding.
Always keep your stick on the ice and your rod in a heated quiver! ;-)
@@WBush-uc9pe Was that a little AVE added in there? But he's talking about a vice not ice and he isn't talking about a stick.
@@mancelprince7426 see Red Green.
Yes, lets see multiple types!
making mistakes with greg sent me here and i can see why he respects your efforts. Thanks a ton. freezer'
This is a phenomenal video! Thanks for putting this together. I'm sure there's a lot of hobby welders like myself that would love to see the results on thinner steel (say 3/16") with just gas shielding.
This is really really really good - good round-up of the just about all the basics - of welding, testing and understanding where weld properties come from - and I express this personal opinion from being a trained metallurgist, Ph.D. level scientist whose investigation was welds, and a practicing welder doing structural steelwork.
You had me right up to that last bit, (practicing welder doing structural welding).
@@deconteesawyer5758 I am a commercial welder, mostly. I frighten most "in suits" types too much. Last weld I did boat hull repair they do 6013 wide-weave, I tried for quick reminder then switched to,7018 stringer. Works well for me.
You can reach 150A v-up T-fillet 7018 if you stringer - and I don't believe you can get anywhere near that if you wide-weave (?)
@@RichardSmith-ms6hh Prodigious bullshitter mostly. Frightening indeed.
@@deconteesawyer5758 This is excellent very objective evaluation. The answer is known, but they are displaying it all for you to see.
A truth does not mind being questioned; a lie responds with ferocious anger trying to prevent anyone examining it.
These people are surely being most generous inviting a truth to be both questioned and examined.
This vidjiou is a very infomative one. Total awesomeness. I hope you are going to continue comparing these two techniques also with other welding methods. I work in a shipyard, and the vessel structure welders aren't even allowed to weave. Now I can definitely understand why :D In a business where the structural welds will not be visible, the only thing that matters is strength. I salute you!
looks like we got a fellow AvE viewer in here.
@@Kyrazlan AvE would say more like vidjayo
This was really interesting; my instructors back in my active college days didn't have a charpy machine, only tensile and u bend test rigs (this was back in the the early '90's), so seeing the same results with much more accurate testing equipment was awesome.
Thanks for doing this, as well as confirming my faith in dual shield welding as (for the most part) the best of world's for structural work.
Wow. Excellent job here!
That's a really great experiment, and I think it was worth every penny it cost to make.
Great job!
When I was doing D1.1 root/multi I always did stringer. What I did for the cert and what I kept doing. I was lucky enough to have Dennis Wright as a teacher. (Writer of the AWS GMAW process)
Man that's awesome. I would think that it would be common sense that stringers are stronger, but maybe I'm being full of myself. Anyway, you're lucky to have been taught by that guy.
Great video Jason, I like both styles but this really shows how excessive heat can compromise your weld in multiple ways. Thanks for sharing team :-)
Braiding is supposed to weld faster, but affects weld quality
I don't dispute the results at all. One observation; during the second test, the Weave samples sat chilling in the methanol for longer than the Stringer samples... would this have had an impact on the test? Or were they held at a constant temperature?
Great video, enjoyed the detailed analysis. Thanks.
Thankyou, Very good and Scientific Data. I understand a bit better now how internal "soak" temperature can soften welds. The weave up near the top was quite excessive (and I expected inclusions there) but putting more metal down in one pass shows that is NOT better in the long run. The weave went down faster, BUT it was an in-effective weld and may fail in service, (depending on the purpose and specifications for the weld) my boss is always saying that I have to do the job "Faster" but this shows that this is not the "Right" way to do it.
I hate that. Constantly chirpin' at ya to go faster faster then suddenly you're the one to blame when things fuck up.
Pretty interesting result. The extra heat input from extra time weaving adversely affects the weld strength. Great video.
What does any of this mean? Where am I? How did I get here?
I was watching chickens in a coop 2 minutes ago.
UA-cam.... What ya doin?
But all jokes aside, I think I learned a lot from this, while not even knowing the first thing of anything welding or metal.
Lot's of knowledge on display here, good quality.
Yeah - once in a while you switch from entertainment to actually learning something :P
You watch chickadee engineering too lol
Weld up some chickens 😂
@@MaineHomeShop Aye, now I can tell _Strings_ from _Weaves._ And know there's some MatheMagics™ going on under them.
All *Very* interesting stuff.
I don't own a welder. Haven't held one in years. And this vid is going in *Deep.* I don't think my mind can handle science of this magnitude!
What I'm saying is: _Chickens are more my speed, right now._ :P
[Edit: UA-cam doing it's double spacings thing again....]
@@matthewlewis9996 You know? I should.
Out of some scrap metal.... That's be cool!
Thank you for this. I am an uncertified welder, mechanic, fabricator, jack of all trade, master of a few. I was taught weave, on everything, I have used both, stringer mainly for vertical and overhead, but weave on everything else. This will change the way I weld a lot. Again, thank you!
You were taught by old school welders who may well have not known better, but stringer is better for strength.
Great video. I would like to see some of the cutting and machining to prepare The samples😀
I agree. I don't want a short video if your cutting out the good stuff to keep it short.
It’s called a grinder bud
@@joshuaharquail597 No. Water jet.
Awesome video and test. Reminded me of teaching welding in the lab and teaching Metallurgy in the other lab alongside. In the end Heat soak and input is always greater packing on layers with a weave pattern. Get in and get out, applies with any process and any filler. Multiple hot consistent passes win hands down. We could pass test in all ways with tight, fused metal over slower fancy swipes!
GREAT TOPIC FOR THE WELD JUNKIES! LETS FIX THIS AGE OLD DEBATE!😁
nothing was laid to rest here ! he butchered is weaves by stretching them beyond beliefs ! what's wrong with all of you, no one noticed ? it's like hey lets see which car is the fastest with the same driver testing both but on one test the guy tries blindfolded and everyone says yeah well that other car sure was a lot faster than the one you tested blindfolded, that settles that age old question !! lol i could copy and paste that answer of mine to at least every second person...not worth my time,already wasted too much !
Worked as a metallurgist apprentice for while doing similar tests at a welding R & D company...I thought everyone knew the weaves were all look...
BTW...your buddies at that lab have some nice toys.
We focused alot on gas mixes. So fully controlled heat input and ambient. Fully controlled weld instruments and weld metals, fluxes and/or gasses. The weld samples were even prepped at specific sizes.
The welder would run root to cap at specs in a tent and the sample was immediately placed in liquid nitrogen. From there a certain amount went into a gas analyzer, some we'd put in epoxy which would freeze the gasses escaping from the weld, and of course we'd use some for the tests conducted in this video, including the acid etching.
People love the epoxy. The visual effect of seeing the escaping gas helps even the old welders put something they've been told their whole career exists into reality.
Fun stuff. The welding and the testing.
Is there a term to search to find the offgassing epoxy photos? I'd like to see what that looks like, but Google only shows JB weld 😆
Well, when you're weaving that wide, dont think there will be much hope for it in the strength tests.
He didn't test the wide weaved cap.
The cap was ground off, but it still dumped a massive amount of heat into the part. I worked in a fab shop that built bridge beams. One of the "ol timer" types decided he was gonna weave instead of stringers, regardless of what the specs called for. They were told the steel would have to be scrapped (or used for shorter pieces if possible) because weaving dumped too much heat into the part. The beams had to be cut back 100mm to remove the tainted steel.
Great video again. Definitely testing I'd never got to see on my own. Thanks for all the effort you guys put into educating the rest of us.
Kevin Lee we appreciate you all taking the time to watch us.
Explained in a way we do understand, came up with a very informative video. Hope Bob is doing just fine.
Haven't welded since high school and now getting back into it. Thank you for this video. Knowledge is key.
Awesome execution on the longest debate in welding history! Love it!
You guys have thee best channel for understanding concepts and easy to watch demonstrations.
My instructor taught me to lay the root and fill with stringer, root being wider often, and cap with weave, I suppose that combines the strength of a stringer and the fancy eye piece of the elustrious weave
I truly appreciate the opportunity for these vicarious trainings. I do wish the presentation were not as fast paced. But they are detailed and clear. The greatest advantage is that I can repeat the videos often.
Awesome video, incredibly informative. The results were a big surprise for me. I definitely thought weave was going to be stronger.
I love the "today we are going to piss some people off" comment... In the end, point taken. Great video, thanks.
A great demo. I have gone through this myself at work. Lots of testing and qualification to meet Charpy requirements of the oil sands in Alberta Canada. We even had Lincoln visit us while testing their LA-71 wire to see what we could achieve. Keep in mind everything is thermally stress relieved which makes it harder to achieve.
This knowledge is as old as dirt though. Stringer beads reduce heat input but also has a grain refining effect on the previous beads your are welding over. Also take a look at the essential variables table of a code book. They all limit bead width. Basically if you want to weave you need to qualify it.
You said it. When I said it, I got laughed out of the shop because I wasn't carrying any welding certificates. I still knew I was right.
i'm only a keyboard welder, but did you get your #4 and #5 pass mixed up a little with the description? e.g. 8:05 shows stringer and is a weave
he did, I was about to comment on the same thing
Same here he must've justed mixed em up im sure.
The video guy erred.
Definitely the cameraman's fault!
It happened at 2:20 also. Three or four other people noticed it too.
I'm impressed.
You changed one thing ONLY
Measured the differences
And came to a clear conclusion.
I have to quite weave-welding !
Stringer always stronger then a weave , tighter grain structure
@Fester Blats THANOS
Thanks I use both styles and never knew there was a strength difference. It will change the way I weld from now one.
Great video. To understand just how each weld affected the steel, a base line test would be beneficial. Test a sample of an un-welded section of the same material. Keep up the great work.
I totally agree. A baseline from each coupon was necessary to know the starting point. They measure the end up points, but they don't know how far they deviated from the starting point. So what do they really know?
The base metal, A36 in this case, has standardized properties and values.
Testing the base metal would only serve the purpose of verifying that the steel mill
wasn't cheating.
Thanks for getting to the point. Way too many video creators these days talk for the first 3 minutes without actually covering the content. Manufactures using primarily string welds in production finally makes sense.
Make sure to subscribe to the channel and hit that 🔔button!
make sure to send me a AC/DC tig machine and include that CK 17 torch!
you mislabeled your runs at some point
I think that you did a fine job on this. Most of us have never had a weld actually tested. So this was fun to watch. Thanks.
Tom Beals thanks man, it was a fun video to shoot. Lots of welding 🤘
damn I was rooting for weaves! very informative, I guess i'm doing stringers from now on.
Good choice my friend 👍
You can do em just watch your heat input
pgbcredneck Same! 😕
Been on a many of jobs and stringer is the way to go.
Yes. Exactly.
Great vid. I've never welded in my life nor plan to. I literally knew nothing about welding but after watching your one video I know something about weaves and stringers, tolerances, testing , how the samples are cut and to switch gloves when you switch hands.
So a little tid bit on switching gloves hes wearing 2 different gloves, one is thicker protects from heat more (usually used with stick welding) and the other is thinner (usually used in tig welding) for more fine motor control. In case you didn't know why he was switching gloves when switching hands
Hell yea I learned something, and I didn't even have to pay ya! Thanks.
Seriously though, I was surprised that the weave capped out first. Keeping an eye on interpass temps I would've bet that the stringers ran cooler.
Awesome to see both the welding and testing for stringers vs weaves in a video. Thanks for putting this together.
The last time that I put _that_ much effort into analyzing a joint -
was when the dispensary was closed and I had to buy a bag in a parking lot from a dude named Bort.
(EDIT: Yeah, you read that right: Bort.)
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Idc what you say that’s funny shit 🤣🤣
One thing I will never be able to say.....”I’ll just toss it over in the water jet and zip some pieces out....”
Lucky dogs.
Frank deluca ok Frank, you got me there. Let’s change it to “fortunate” dogs. I’m fairly certain they didn’t just happen upon a water wet.
Only 300mil in the usa. Over 7 billion on earth. You are lucky just to be born here. What you make is always up to you.
Robert Bogan you got that right, and I thank my lucky stars, or fortunate stars, or whatever, every single day.
I've been welding for over45 yrs now. Union Millwright in my younger days, transitioned to union Ironworker. I picked stringers before you tested. We were always taught to run stringers.
Awesome video! Would you please do one for the other styles of beads, like for the e, triangles etc? It would be nice to see the hierarchy of strength in the different weld bead styles. Thank you for doing this video!
Great idea!
I don't know why but the sound of that hammer breaking the samples was so satisfying . I could listen to that all day.
Neat. how about you and the labcoat get together on quenched plates vs non quenched.
i think quenched can be tougher because smaller grain size, what do you think?
If you quench but dont then temper, the steel will be very hard but brittle.
@@jessewilliams4152 we are talking about mild/structural steel here not carbon steel
@@NKG416 which is carbon steel. You need carbon to turn iron into steel.
@@jessewilliams4152 yes technically all steel is carbon steel, but you need enough carbon to actually harden it, in this case mild/structural steel don't have
Fantastic video, this is the best welding video I’ve seen so far. Thanks so much for doing this !
The fact that some welding certifications do not allow weaves tells me all i need to know about them.
Common sense would typically have you earning much more thumbs up with that comment. However, I've realized over the ages that common sense isn't common. bottom line, weaves aren't allowed in some certifications, they've been tested and found not up to par.
@@TechieTard Common sense would also refrain from redundantly repeating what was just stated. I mean, I know in engineering that redundancies are good n necessary, in this case no.
Anything not structural or high pressure.
Anything a level 1 welder cannot touch.......in other words stick to garden furniture 👍
For the record, there's actually not a great deal of difference between a weave and a multi-run fillet, when performed with the requisite skill, in terms of penetration. Weaves, however, tend to impart excess heat into the material (as per the video) and are much easier to fuck up aesthetically, that's why they're usually excluded.
Super - sitting in my home shop; watched the whole thing!
My gut expected no significant difference. I've always contended you should use what best suits the situation to give the minimum of 'mistakes' in the process and good gas cover. I always leaned to stringer mostly because it's faster. Learned something here. Thanks!
I know this is old but, about to lay my first weld ever and have been learning a lot from this channel.
Very interesting. You can't beat hard data. I find this stuff fasinating, more please!
Slightly softer data, in the case of weaves...
@@WBush-uc9pe So funny, I forgot to laugh, Ha Ha...
Gret technical vid and explanations about weaves vs stringers. For the importance of toughness, you gotta go stringer. Worked in rig shop, one new guy got bored and weaved up the side of mast joint... got fired... he was mouthy as heck... but he had no idea about how stingers refine that microstructure into small grain growth, and keep it small, the weaves are too soft and mast would fail. Man did he swear, only lasted about 4 hours... on that job.
Thank you for an informative video! Too bad you didnt take the x-ray at first to get an overview of the sludge. Eitherway it shows me that i'll need to enhace my welding and do stringers instead.
Again; thank you. Greetings from Norway.
Great video dude! Love the science behind our welds! , However I'm in a structural shop and procedure does not allow weaving do to the sure fact too much room for error to trap slagg
i tent to weave on thinner matarials, and string on thicker material (deeper penetration)
In all my years as an ASME certified welder, I've never seen a GMAW/FCAW welding procedure with a 1/2" root opening for 1/2" plate.
You can keep your interpass temp at 350F but your heat input from weaving will cause your cracking and lack of fusion problems. Most ASME customer required weldments would require a Joules requirement formula for heat input. Jobs and material to be used in environments of -20F would certainly require this.
@@dohabandit I agree. The issue of weaving in the middle portion of the weld as well as the cap pass. still presents problems with lack of fusion in the sidewall as well as the previous pass. My response is predicated on those who are welding under a certified weld procedure. For those in other welding circumstances, you do what is best for your particular need, but I believe stringers are the best for penetration and fusion ( if weld parameters are set right).
Do it again with 7018 1/8th rod. Everyone seems to weld pipe especially there cap with a wide weave. I run stringers myself. Curious on the differences
Kick ass video! I love SCIENCE when it disproves EMOTION. Strong work, guys!
Great video. Welding and Metallurgy 101 stringers are stronger than weaves.
Lab testing is impressive! Thanks gang.
This is a good video looking at the differences in the weld metal properties. However, why didn't y'all look into side/root/face bend testing? From my understanding, these are common qualification tests.
Those check for porousity, slag inclusions, lack of fusion and such.
Great testing methodology and video. Even though the result is pretty obvious, the end of every extensive comparison test where multiple techniques are used with somewhat varying results should result in a discussion/conclusion where the author sums up the results of the various tests into a conclusion that either states the winner and why or the pros and cons of each technique.
You obviously did a lot of work producing this, it was certainly worthy of a wrap up containing a minute or two conclusion statement. Most importantly, a summarized conclusion at the end allows lazy people like me to get the “Cliff’s Notes” and results without watching the whole video lol.
Otherwise kudos, we need more videos like this doing quality head-to-head comparison’s of age old debates that most opinions are based on personal experiences with a million variables and anecdotes. Thanks for the video!
Less slag entrapment with "stringers" besides none of the contractors I worked for allowed weaving , you would fail the test before if even got bent or X-Rayed . Retired Boilermaker 35yrs field work .
Yes i had my welding tested many years ago here in Canada and the teachings at that time was to never weave because it mixes impurities into the pool of malting metal and weakens your welding process. i did the welder fitters/ pipe course in the mid 90's and passed all my bend tests and that bend test on concave and convex pipe. we would fail if we did a weave weld for our tests back then. Pressure pipe was 6010 root and 7018 Stringers for the filler and cover passes, I remember for my cover passes the stringers looked like one weld but it was 3 passes Horizontal 3/8 plate was scratch start TIG Root and 7018 filler and cover. Even vertical and over head stick is 6010 root up hill and 7018 filler, stringers and cover stringers, I found it was easy for me, it all has to do with prep setup and heat settings. I nice when you heat is correct because the slag fall off on it own as it cools.
Solid testing. Solid test results. Can't argue with that.
Subbed now. That was critical info. I repair heavy equipment and this was valuable info. Thank you
Critical note: On the tensile test, the stringer failed in a ductile manner with the line of failure basically horizontal. On the weave sample, the almost 45 degree line of failure indicates a brittle material. Why? Because ductile materials fail in the tension plane, while brittle materials fail in the shear plane. If you rotate a tiny cross section of a tensile test specimen 45 degrees that is the state of max shear. Look up Mohr's circle if you're curious.
I'm actually quite surprised he didn't touch on that. Haven't watched V-notch yet, though.
almost every tensile test will break at a 45 degree angle. if it does not do that it could indicate a premature origin point. in that sample it was probably a massive slag line in the weld near the cap because of the giant weave taken while capping the weld because of lack of penetration. by the time he was welding on the other toe of the weld the puddle had already cooled to the point that he was just piling weld metal on top of the base metal (lack of penetration). it would have been interesting to see a cross section of the weave to check for non fusion near the cap of the weave weld.
Great vid,thanks for taking the time to make this! Still a weave guy,unless its critical
Nice Esab Rebels. Got me the 205 ic AC/DC. Absolutely impressed with it. As for the welding. In my expierence as a pressure pipe welder, it's not really a debate as which is better. It's about procedure. Travel speed is critical, interpass temp is critical. As well as staying within the codes for weld width. If you travel too slow your overall heat input gets past the allowable tolerances and you are welding out of procedure. So I dunno if that annoys anyone, but it's my reality. Cheers.
Awesome .... More people like you we need ... Some people know how ... But some just can't do it ...
While this test was pretty definitive, a 1-3/8" wide "weave" is absurd. Going over multiple valleys after the root pass is also not something I would think any weld would benefit from. Splitting and tripling the weave passes towards the top makes way more sense with something that large. I would have much rather watched a test with multiple smaller weaves and seen those results. Watching the puddle cool before he laps back on the "weave" makes me cringe.
He had many more stringer passes than weave passes. Not enough heat / feed / amperage or whatever you want to call it while he was doing the weave passes.
Exactly, too wide of a weave. That's why you put 2 to 3 Bead Cap on heavy walls. Even then he should of stacked the weaves after the hot pass 1/2 covering the previous weld. ABSURD!
Yeah you shouldn't be welding over lack of fusion, over multiple valleys, or in between two passes that aren't completely fused together with no space in between. It's not as bad of an idea with straight CO2, but if you need something to pass UT, it's never a good idea. I've welded over some pretty bad lack of fusion before with 3/32 dual shield running straight CO2 with the arc right on the toe that wasn't fused when I was in a hurry and it passed UT, but it's definitely not best practice.
Very good episode!!! Everyone that welds needs to know this!
Good information to know the next time I'm mig welding with the everlast
I know this is an older video but I just watched it. The controversy over weave vs stringer has been on going probably since Lincoln, Hobart, Miller and Airco started making constant current welding machines. Former CWI/CWE and welding instructor for 31 years. I can say this without a doubt. This is a series of sample coupons done with one process in one position by one welder. Did we conclusively end the debate, as you mentioned "no". The list of variables to determine a conclusion would take multiple videos and an abundance of time. The truth of the matter is, Code dictates essential variables. As a certified welder one follows code. Code does not say you might or you can it says you will and it is law when used in a court room to prove liability. If it calls for no bead to exceed filler metal diameter by more than 4x, you as the welder follows code...not a video. As you mentioned, this is a fun place to start and the piece gave good eye candy if you're a nerdy kinda welder guy who is curious.
Good deal, excellent info to have and a classic debate settled.
who won
welders can complain all they want but when you are testing you follow the WPS ALWAYS!
Even when they say 55A for 1" plate?🤣
Super interesting video but you've got some captions wrong on your welds at least at around 7:20 and 7:50. You might want to check all your shots and re-edit as necessary.
Again, I appreciate the time and effort you put into this and it's otherwise a great video.
Agreed. Doing a stringer with weave text and a weave with stringer text. Awesome technique and finish!
Very good video, scientific methods yielded great results. Thank you.
Jeffry Blackmon thank you for watching.
@@GodslilRedneck23 This video caused me to subscribe.
Cool testing never seen it before. I now know what charpy v notch means, it just took 50 years to find that out.
I have been involved in pipeline and pressure vessel welding for over 40 years. Here are the basic differences: 1) Weaves have slightly higher productivity than stringers, especially on thick wall material, generally 3/4" thick and thicker; and, 2) Stringers have lower occurrences of porosity and undercut.
It is also easier to do repair welds on stringers than on weaves.
If the mechanical tests meet the specified requirement, then it doesn't really matter.
Thank you for your consideration.
I love the science behind this and the detail to the info, but sometimes I wonder why I watch videos like this when all my welding is just weekend warrior projects lol.
hey man thanks. you`re taking time to answer every significant question. thanks for sharing. take care. pete
p penca thanks for the support Pete. Without the support of the viewers, we wouldn’t be able to do what we do.
@@GodslilRedneck23 thanks for the answer man. aprreciate it, i edited not to step on anyone`s toes. i much appreciated the job of your predecessors here. been welding for a long long time every ftime i learn something new. :D