hey, i'm one of the subscribers who watches but doesn't always comment lol I've been on a sort of deconstruction journey myself, but not necessarily to not become a Christian anymore, but to better understand the things that have been preached at me over the years, but haven't taken time to fully unpack on my own. so when I hear you speak, it's honestly just eye-opening and gives me a new perspective on things. but what I do find interesting is that you can still hear your past beliefs (in Christianity) in how your speak, if that makes sense. i know that's not something that will go away completely or overnight since it's who you've been for years, but it's just something I've noticed (not a bad thing lol) I'm definitely here to glean from & hear your perspective and have been enjoying your transparency through this journey ✨
I always watch your stuff, but you know I’m a fan. I love your brain. I may not always agree, but I have always respected how you process. I do think our Faith is a mix of our intellect & our experiences. Before my Dad & sister Died (3 weeks apart from each other) God gave me a series of dreams & things that happened in the natural, right after leading me to read about King Neb, in The Book of Daniel. Those moments changed my life forever & begin this journey of mine since 2006. Things that intellect alone couldn’t explain. I’ve watched people i know get out of wheel chairs , I’ve watched an “incurable cancer” be removed from my mothers body a week before a scheduled bone marrow transplant. I’ve had moments where before my own heart surgeries that God literally had my doctors saying verbatim the same prayers that I was speaking to Him the night before. I said all of that to say, I am definitely an experience person while Equally believing that we , as Christians , have run from intellect because of the fear of our own limitation’s & understanding as humans. I don’t fear going Beyond the “boundaries “ because who set them ? It’s crazy to me that we would think God would give us a brain and that being the only organ we think God wouldn’t want us to use in its fullness in this life. Again, I just think they both work together.
Hey Joe, I too am one of the subscribers who don’t comment often lol. But I thoroughly appreciate all of the work you have done in the Christian space and all of your current endeavors. Although you don’t subscribe to Christianity anymore, I still find myself learning from you and your words. Your transition has helped me to realize that you were more than someone who I looked up to because of our beliefs, but you are a human who I genuinely find to be valuable in every sense of the word. Believing that love, grace and peace will always find you!
Stay blessed ! The beginning actually made me a bit sad 😕 you’re right… We are saved by Grace through faith & without faith it is impossible to please God. I pray that you would encounter that faith & God would give you that faith ! 🙏🏾
As someone who never comments but always watches. I watch to listen and understand. A lot of what you have said in many of your videos is very relatable. Love your content bro
I agree with you. I wholeheartedly reject the Christianity that makes people leave their brains at the door that line of thinking is the problem with many Christians. I agree with you that you can have an experience of both intellectual, emotions and spirituality. I am in love with Jesus and the bible firstly because of my personal experience with him but more so because the central point of Christianity makes a lot of intellectual sense to me. My Christian faith and Bible make emotional, experiential and intellectual sense this is why I am in the faith despite the bullhead of Christians
My current understanding of human intellect is that it is a powerful tool to help lead us to truth, but not the only tool--it's when we use a combination of intellect, prayer, scripture, life experience, etc. that we continuously deepen our faith, or decide that the faith might not be for us. Although I agree that we absolutely need intellect in acquiring religious truth, I do believe that human intellect can start to get in the way of discovering deeper, divine truth when it is out of balance with prayer and other spiritual tools. Having said that, I believe God wants us to try our best in discovering truth, and if you are striving your best to discover truth in your life and to serve others, He will be very pleased with you. And from an atheist perspective, even if He didn't exist, why wouldn't we want to search for truth and serve humanity anyway?
I agree. I’m a theology buff and I’ve always was encouraged to study for myself and work on my own relationship with God and people. It’s true sometimes we can hinder ourselves by over analyzing, that’s a given with pretty much everything. However, I do believe that what the commentator said could have been expounded upon by simply saying that a lot of times we can lack the spiritual intelligence and that comes with spiritual maturity and how you nurture it. It’s so true that it’s a daily fight between the spiritual and flesh. So many times, I have talked to some people who are Christian, was Christian and with some of them the common denominator is not truly feeding their spirit and understanding what that takes and mean because they only did what they were taught which was a very slim understanding of it all. For me, my parents always told me growing up to study for yourself because it’s my own journey, my own relationship. It’s necessary to break everything down in order to become stronger.
@@beyoncestan-oo8zt That's an interesting question--I think we certainly do think in the process of praying and experiencing life, but we also have emotions, intuitions, and confirmations that seem to be outside the realm of the intellect. I think all these things are interconnected, but at least in my life there have been certain confirming moments that went far beyond my own intellect (my intellect did help me understand what had happened after the fact, but in the moment it felt like a much more transcendent experience).
@@jazzybash1 Beautifully said! Over-analyzing can definitely get in the way of truth (which is again why I think the intellect needs to be balanced with other tools for seeking truth). And I agree that we need to nurture strong spiritual habits in our lives if we want to grow in our faith. It takes consistent prayer, action, reflection, and consultation with others as we gain wisdom and grow closer to God.
I think it’s easier to say “ah ha! This is why you’re x, y, or z…” then to sit in the discomfort of having to assess the complexities and nuance of humans and the human experiences. It’s a challenge to sit in both/and. Our minds like completion, closed circles. I’ve found myself quickly pigeonholing the “why” behind certain triggers and old wounds I have, only to find that it’s waaaaaaay more complex then I originally thought (or wanted to believe it was). I wanted to be able to say, yes! This is why Kesh, this is why you’re struggling. So, correct..pivot, and you’ll be better. Only to find, shoot. Lol. Crap, there’s sooooo much more to this issue then I thought. We (I) have to be more willing to accept that our (my) experiences our too variable to have such general responses to the choices we decide to make.
Hey Joseph! As a Christian, I completely agree with everything you said about this argument. You did a better job refuting the logic of the argument than a lot of Christians lol I wanted to add on to what you were saying for two reasons: 1)Because others in the comments are saying that you have to use human reasoning coupled with scripture as if human reason by itself is null and void and 2) It builds on your argument about the incarnation. By the Christian standard, specifically the bible (Romans 2:14-16) demonstrates that even non believers can use human reason on their own to be saved. What Paul is saying here is that Jesus being the logos, the word made flesh is reason, and our human intellect are a reflection of that objective reasoning (objective in substance not necessarily in methodology) and a reflection of Christ unto itself. Paul says that this conviction of consciousness is instinctively written in the human heart. This sort of builds on your argument about the incarnation. Paul doesnt argue there that these non believers must use human reasoning along with scripture in order for human reasoning to be objective (in substance) or correct. I believe that even though you are no longer necessarily Christian, you are using your intellect to search for the truth. This is an objectively good thing. God gave us our faculties to do just that. You can come to objectively correct conclusions about the universe around you without using scripture as an authority. Since you mentioned that you want this channel to be charitable and have more resonable engagement, I also had something else to mention. I asked you a while back about your objections to Catholicism and one of your objections was about organized religion. Even though its unrelated to this video in particular I wanted to probe your brain a bit more about why you object to religion being organized or why organized religion could be perceived as negative. Also, I am glad you are encouraging healthy dialogue on this platform and being open about your struggles with consistency in the Christiam framework. Looking forward to your response!
I appreciate the space you've provided for those of us in the midst of deconstructing our faith. And to deconstruct as a public figure...wow. I can imagine the pressure. I've been deconstructing since early 2020 which led me leave my parent's church. It was tough...my step dad isn't talking to me to this day because of it. You providing this safe space is so necessary. I see you and I thank you.
your videos bring so much comfort. your question in the title of this video has been something i’ve had dissonance over for so long. thank you for talking about this with such light heartedness and honesty. i’ve enjoyed your content for years now and these videos haven’t been any different!! these topics are importantt!!!
17:43 Had me weak 🤣you where definitely channeling that presupp Joe. Great and solid video bro. (Coming from a Christian) Anyone writing you or anyone else off as simply "not having enough faith/erring on the side of reason too much" needs to read their Bible. That is a straw man argument, it's lazy, and its unbiblical. Biblical faith is not fideism. “Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool." Isaiah 1:18
As someone who recently went through their own deconstruction journey… and come out with conclusions that satisfy my lived experiences… I have to give it to you. You made some very valid points in this one. Wishing you all the best as you navigate your way through the world.
Hey. I watch almost every video. I am on the same journey. I haven’t come out publicly or even to my family. But the people who are closest to me know. I appreciate this channel very much. Keep going. Especially if you feel called to do so. I’m listening.
Been loving the content lately very thought-provoking and helpful for those with faith and those who are secular. Curious about a desire you had a minute ago while listening to the podcast when you said something like you wanted desperately to believe. What did you think genuine belief/faith looked like regularly? I don't know if you have answered this question already, but I felt the desire to ask. I have fallen victim to unrealistic expectations of what faith looks like for myself based on my community, those around me, and the spiritual leaders I learn from. I don't know you like that, so all I have is assumptions that I try to hold with charity.
“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me-watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” Matthew 11:28-30 MSG
Y'all leave him alone let him continue on his journey. 😭 i still care about you Joe. Im so sad about this... but people gotta let you have your space and journey.
I can’t remember if i’ve commented before BUUUT, thank you Joe. Thank you for all of your insight and transparency. I don’t know if you’ll ever do another Q&A but throughout your life, how did you come to terms with knowing that no one will ever understand you better then yourself? And did the christian ver. of this question (Nobody knows you better then God/Jesus/Creator etc) ever bother/upset you. Appreciate you and everything that you do 🙏🏼.
💯% Agree. Although I kind of feel as if two conversations are being had here. Reason & Intellect vs. Logic, which would speak to both sides of the coin, bridge the gap in this. But again, interesting as ever... Nice one, cheers!
The Tyranny of "Or" and the Genius of "And." I love what you said about being on a spectrum. I've always felt this way. Love your argument on intellect and why it's necessary to interpret, communicate, and understand scriptures. The example of using kids stories vs King James bible is true. The same way we wouldn't feed a baby steak. There's stages in how we ought to process information and gain intellect. My wife asked if I would've believed in any other religion if I was born to it, I simply said, highly likely. Though this might seem a bit lazy on my end and it is. At the same time, I am content with where I am and what I was dealt. I'm still a Christian AND still have my doubts. At best, I do believe that Christian values have the best interests of humanity as a society. Though again, I still have doubts for certain things. For myself the issue is placing intellect or knowledge on the throne vs my Faith. I will never know everything and I became more accepting of that as I aged. Appreciate your honesty and conversation! Would love to hear a spoken word piece about where you are in life!☺️
The need to be right - that's shame - even in the Garden of Eden. I honestly still grieve about this for myself.... and when I see how some are still living under this lie being sold as Truth. I'm legit upset and angry... Why should I care, really? I care that people are hoodwinked...the veil that's supposed to be torn is still intact if people are still arguing about the right way to have access to God.
Advice for someone who is trying all their might to keep Christianity? Yet doesn’t want to let go unless they know for certain it isn’t true really relate with your story but have so many ties with the Christian faith that it makes it hard to face doubt as doubt or the devil Thanks Joe
If God is found somewhere beyond human intellect, ya'll must be referring to meditation because that's the only state where I am purposefully trying not to think/quiet the thinking mind. Even when i'm praying I'm thinking about what I am saying. So for the people saying "don't use too much intellect" - what are you using when you're not using your intellect?
It is sad that people argue intellect as a reason for losing faith... As a theologian I still search for God daily through my intellect instead of a feeling... Because knowledge won't fail you but emotions do... I would emplore Christianity as a fellow brother of the faith to look for God in all things... Intellect even more so, because a deeper faith based on intellectual understanding is much more durable... God is a constant presence in our world. Separation of both intellectual and spiritual realms is braking up every basic starting point of every author in scripture.
Thanks for sharing this one. I've been watching closely since your first announcement and I felt I was in a similar place with my faith. Very recently it has been restored because of human intellect. I discovered Cornelius Vantil and Greg Bahnsen's method of presuppositional apologetics. That has renewed me. I'd like to reason with you/hear your points of contention with the Christian worldview (instead of Christian culture) on particular theological issues. You've spoken a little about this, but I feel like you are holding back on what doctrines you regard as problematic or just not viable.
yes, very familiar with presupp. i mention it quite a bit on this channel. i took Coventantal apologetics when i briefly attended seminary. went back and read books and listened to entire seminary audio courses on it. bahsen, van til, and newer versions like john frame and james white. it is presupp (or more sentimentally called Covenantal Apologetics) that actually made me an even more critical thinker. i say on this channel (i forget which video lol) how christian theology (which “good” presuppositional apologetics would say good apologetics should first be good theology) really introduced me more formally to philosophy- more than my intro to philosophy class in college lol. it gave me tools to question other worldviews beyond the surface. initially i thought that presupp “renewed me” as well but i think simply the hope of being this sledge hammer of truth it offered to be renewed me for a moment. actually diving into it was a different story. i grant that these guys are way smarter than me and maybe ultimately i just didn’t “get it”. i kept reading and studying and watching conversations around classical vs presuppositional. a lot of it made sense, and i still use versions of the thinking today. but the more questions i had, the less lucid the argument seemed to become but then eventually i was like “i shouldn’t have to be as smart as a PhD professor to be a christian” 😂 i had a few major “crises of faith” moments. taking Christian Apologetics at a reformed seminary was one of them.
@@flightsfeelings Yeah I saw that video when you mentioned presupp and it was enough to make me think I shouldn't rely on it as a silver bullet or as a christ. I haven't heard solid push back against presupp yet, but I know it's out there, as other folks I follow like Ruslan KD have said there are problems with presupp. So I'm not clinging to it for life, but having my intellect stimulated in this way about God has given some life to my spirit, which was nearly dead at one point. And I agree, it shouldn't take an IQ of 150, multiple degrees, etc just to be a Christian. All it takes to be a Christian is knowing that you have loose ends you can not tie up, and you don't have answers to many things, but you trust anyways. That's faith. I used to pride myself on having all the answers because I read and listened to so many apologists constantly (geisler, ravi, William lane Craig, john lennox, etc). Even the chase god webisodes. Apologetics was like a drug. But then I encountered textual criticism and that shook things up. So I dug deeper and deeper and got lost somewhere in it. That's why I related to you and felt I was in a similar place spiritually. After presupp I feel like I've seen too much. So much that I can't go back and abandon my faith again. There's still healing from feeling abandoned or misunderstood from people in my church. But I found the ability to forgive and I'm just starting to fellowship again properly. I grew up in Chicago and my church experience there (and America in general) has always been very particular. So when you mentioned your doubts and questions having to "come back to a particular kind of Christianity" that sounded so restraining. The church I've been at the last 7 years is more of a global church (in Australia with many overseas missionaries, refugees, orthodox, Anglicans, etc.) so I felt less restrained for my doubts to return to the exact flavor of Christianity I experienced difficulty with. So I wonder if you might have had a different experience if your church were...less American for lack of a better term. Anyways, I'm still waiting for this particular thing that has broken your faith, revealed a cognitive dissonance, or a theological inconsistency so I can see how my renewed faith stands up against it. I know it could be many things and could be hard to articulate, but I'm here for every video waiting to see.
Hey hey, You’re worth my official first UA-cam comment! I first discovered you via the ‘19 PIA tour in Cincinnati; I soon discovered you were worth a VIP purchase, which says a lot since I’m the frugal daughter of Julius from “Everybody Hates Chris.” Quick thanks for: a. Inspiring my TedTalk satire-style Corporate Banking presentation to Execs b. “The Ocean” single-had me in a chokehold from ‘19-‘21 Quick ?: a. Have you heard of Myles Munroe? What’s your thoughts on his Kingdom Series? - Lex, a fellow intellectual
When I see these videos I see a man who’s trying his hardest to let Christianity go but can’t for some reason. Your so brilliant, talented and handsome. Sometimes I’m like if Joe isn’t a Christian anymore why does he feel compelled to talk about it still? It’s okay if you’re not a Christian anymore, we still love and support you. Not sure. Maybe this is Deconstruction Series. You don’t have to explain yourself to us Joe. Do you boo!
i’m not trying to let go of anything lol. its been let go. i tried for years to hold onto it. y’all be creating narratives. like i’ve said on my channel before, i was christian for decades literally. it was my entire world. of course i still have stuff to say about. if someone was married for 20 years and got a divorce, you think they just not gonna talk about it anymore? just because they still talk about their experience in marriage, doesn’t mean they want to go back. but they can’t act like that part of their life just didn’t happen. i’m not gonna act like that part of my life just happen. it happened, and it was a huge part of my life. i know i don’t have* to explain anything. i want to. because it’s good for me and others.
you made the point that intellect is how one interprets the bible, which is true..but i think it’s fair to say that intellect itself isn’t dependable enough when it comes to approaching such a book, since it’s so liable to vary. still i 100% agree that you can’t separate intellect from spiritual but since they’re intertwined, two sides of this spectrum exist. spiritual conclusions drawn by intellectual reasoning and intellectual conclusions drawn by spiritual guidance. without the guidance of The Holy Spirit as you read the text, the verses in the bible are merely words on a page up for any interpretation made by one’s subject intellect..resulting in one drawing a spiritual conclusion that could contradict the supernatural or literal context of the scriptures because they were promoted by intellectual reasoning in comprehension rather than spiritual guidance. this is why atheist theologians exist, why the council of Nicaea took place, and why there’s multiple denominations of christianity that disagree doctrinally. it is only The Holy Spirit aiding readers in intellectually rationalizing the text that allows for correct comprehension to take place..intellectual understanding drawn by spiritual guidance. The Holy Spirit can’t deceive you, but your intellect can..any conclusion you draw will be predicated on which one your soul lets lead. with all that being said i think we get stuck in a loop of discrepancy when we’re on one side of the spectrum more than the other. i love your content btw, it makes me think!
I have a large youtube channel with a majority Christian audience. The Bible doesn't resonate for me in a way that it resonates for them. I've been tackling how I'm going to make that transition without sabotaging my platform. I hardly upload anymore because of it. Many assumptions they make are quite foolish when you put on your thinking cap. But Christianity has a cult like following in itself and makes it hard to break out AND SPEAK out like you are. I appreciate the work you're doing deeply. I followed you for the first time a couple years ago, and you were the only "Christian" musician I enjoyed. Now I realize at least 1 of my reasons why... You use your brain to critically think and realize we're all human. No one has the answers. We're all speculating at best... Everyone else seems to understand this except for the religiously indoctrinated.
@thshores How did you come to the conclusion that there is no afterlife? Also, it seems like you're holding back on the "why" you left the faith, it's seems like you're saying alot but not saying anything at the same time, I have no desire to convince you to come back, I'm just curious about the "why"... And are you saying that there is no spiritual realm? If so, what made you come to that conclusion?
i’ve already made a whole video titled “why i left christianity”. in that video and others, i give enough “why” as i feel necessary to give at the moment. no one’s holding back. i think people like yourself are just expecting that there was one singular thing or small handful of easily explainable things that cause me to leave. but it’s not. so i just made a video that gave the general reason why. also, where did i say i came to the conclusion that there is no afterlife? how did you come to that conclusion?
@@flightsfeelings referencing your last paragraph, you commented on one of your videos in the past saying that we are not owed an afterlife, so I was asking what makes you say that
yeah i think a lot of people, and probably the person i was responding to, move with the basic assumption that there has to be an afterlife given to us. it’s not that they believe they could ever verify if an afterlife exists, or that they’re even up for considering the possibility that it may not exist. they just assume there’s going to be an afterlife. i’ve not made any conclusive statement on that because i think that would be quite arrogant to say that i KNOW there isn’t OR that there IS an afterlife. i just don’t move around with assumption that i’m owed one, and i want to live my life in a way that doesn’t assume i’ll somehow get a fresh start just because i deeply want one.
I think you are missing Christianity though because in this video it sounds like you preaching 😂😂🔥even the way you quoting those Verses, i believe you gonna ultimately come back to Jesus
no one’s missing christianity. i studied and preached for years so it’s not like it just leaves you. also, i had such a christian worldview approach because i’m trying to show that even form the christian perspective this is wrong thinking. but my personal approach to this is much broader and probably way more critical.
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hey, i'm one of the subscribers who watches but doesn't always comment lol I've been on a sort of deconstruction journey myself, but not necessarily to not become a Christian anymore, but to better understand the things that have been preached at me over the years, but haven't taken time to fully unpack on my own. so when I hear you speak, it's honestly just eye-opening and gives me a new perspective on things. but what I do find interesting is that you can still hear your past beliefs (in Christianity) in how your speak, if that makes sense. i know that's not something that will go away completely or overnight since it's who you've been for years, but it's just something I've noticed (not a bad thing lol) I'm definitely here to glean from & hear your perspective and have been enjoying your transparency through this journey ✨
I always watch your stuff, but you know I’m a fan. I love your brain. I may not always agree, but I have always respected how you process. I do think our Faith is a mix of our intellect & our experiences. Before my Dad & sister Died (3 weeks apart from each other) God gave me a series of dreams & things that happened in the natural, right after leading me to read about King Neb, in The Book of Daniel. Those moments changed my life forever & begin this journey of mine since 2006. Things that intellect alone couldn’t explain. I’ve watched people i know get out of wheel chairs , I’ve watched an “incurable cancer” be removed from my mothers body a week before a scheduled bone marrow transplant. I’ve had moments where before my own heart surgeries that God literally had my doctors saying verbatim the same prayers that I was speaking to Him the night before. I said all of that to say, I am definitely an experience person while Equally believing that we , as Christians , have run from intellect because of the fear of our own limitation’s & understanding as humans. I don’t fear going
Beyond the “boundaries “ because who set them ? It’s crazy to me that we would think God would give us a brain and that being the only organ we think God wouldn’t want us to use in its fullness in this life.
Again, I just think they both work together.
Hey Joe, I too am one of the subscribers who don’t comment often lol. But I thoroughly appreciate all of the work you have done in the Christian space and all of your current endeavors. Although you don’t subscribe to Christianity anymore, I still find myself learning from you and your words. Your transition has helped me to realize that you were more than someone who I looked up to because of our beliefs, but you are a human who I genuinely find to be valuable in every sense of the word. Believing that love, grace and peace will always find you!
thank you did these kinds words omar! means a lot.
Stay blessed ! The beginning actually made me a bit sad 😕 you’re right… We are saved by Grace through faith & without faith it is impossible to please God. I pray that you would encounter that faith & God would give you that faith ! 🙏🏾
As someone who never comments but always watches. I watch to listen and understand. A lot of what you have said in many of your videos is very relatable. Love your content bro
I appreciate that
I agree with you. I wholeheartedly reject the Christianity that makes people leave their brains at the door that line of thinking is the problem with many Christians.
I agree with you that you can have an experience of both intellectual, emotions and spirituality.
I am in love with Jesus and the bible firstly because of my personal experience with him but more so because the central point of Christianity makes a lot of intellectual sense to me.
My Christian faith and Bible make emotional, experiential and intellectual sense this is why I am in the faith despite the bullhead of Christians
This is so good ! Funny enough I was like “he still got it!” 🤣🤣 definitely broaden my view on engaging with Christianity/faith in general
Didn't know I needed to hear this today. Thank you for sharing
Very solid points- especially around the 14min mark. Wish I'd thought of that talking point myself when I found myself in similar conversations.
My current understanding of human intellect is that it is a powerful tool to help lead us to truth, but not the only tool--it's when we use a combination of intellect, prayer, scripture, life experience, etc. that we continuously deepen our faith, or decide that the faith might not be for us. Although I agree that we absolutely need intellect in acquiring religious truth, I do believe that human intellect can start to get in the way of discovering deeper, divine truth when it is out of balance with prayer and other spiritual tools.
Having said that, I believe God wants us to try our best in discovering truth, and if you are striving your best to discover truth in your life and to serve others, He will be very pleased with you. And from an atheist perspective, even if He didn't exist, why wouldn't we want to search for truth and serve humanity anyway?
all the examples you listed involve human intellect tho - don't we all think when you're praying and experiencing our lives?
I agree. I’m a theology buff and I’ve always was encouraged to study for myself and work on my own relationship with God and people. It’s true sometimes we can hinder ourselves by over analyzing, that’s a given with pretty much everything. However, I do believe that what the commentator said could have been expounded upon by simply saying that a lot of times we can lack the spiritual intelligence and that comes with spiritual maturity and how you nurture it. It’s so true that it’s a daily fight between the spiritual and flesh. So many times, I have talked to some people who are Christian, was Christian and with some of them the common denominator is not truly feeding their spirit and understanding what that takes and mean because they only did what they were taught which was a very slim understanding of it all. For me, my parents always told me growing up to study for yourself because it’s my own journey, my own relationship. It’s necessary to break everything down in order to become stronger.
@@beyoncestan-oo8zt That's an interesting question--I think we certainly do think in the process of praying and experiencing life, but we also have emotions, intuitions, and confirmations that seem to be outside the realm of the intellect. I think all these things are interconnected, but at least in my life there have been certain confirming moments that went far beyond my own intellect (my intellect did help me understand what had happened after the fact, but in the moment it felt like a much more transcendent experience).
@@jazzybash1 Beautifully said! Over-analyzing can definitely get in the way of truth (which is again why I think the intellect needs to be balanced with other tools for seeking truth). And I agree that we need to nurture strong spiritual habits in our lives if we want to grow in our faith. It takes consistent prayer, action, reflection, and consultation with others as we gain wisdom and grow closer to God.
I think it’s easier to say “ah ha! This is why you’re x, y, or z…” then to sit in the discomfort of having to assess the complexities and nuance of humans and the human experiences. It’s a challenge to sit in both/and. Our minds like completion, closed circles. I’ve found myself quickly pigeonholing the “why” behind certain triggers and old wounds I have, only to find that it’s waaaaaaay more complex then I originally thought (or wanted to believe it was). I wanted to be able to say, yes! This is why Kesh, this is why you’re struggling. So, correct..pivot, and you’ll be better. Only to find, shoot. Lol. Crap, there’s sooooo much more to this issue then I thought. We (I) have to be more willing to accept that our (my) experiences our too variable to have such general responses to the choices we decide to make.
This we well put. I totally agree
Hey Joseph!
As a Christian, I completely agree with everything you said about this argument. You did a better job refuting the logic of the argument than a lot of Christians lol I wanted to add on to what you were saying for two reasons: 1)Because others in the comments are saying that you have to use human reasoning coupled with scripture as if human reason by itself is null and void and 2) It builds on your argument about the incarnation. By the Christian standard, specifically the bible (Romans 2:14-16) demonstrates that even non believers can use human reason on their own to be saved. What Paul is saying here is that Jesus being the logos, the word made flesh is reason, and our human intellect are a reflection of that objective reasoning (objective in substance not necessarily in methodology) and a reflection of Christ unto itself. Paul says that this conviction of consciousness is instinctively written in the human heart. This sort of builds on your argument about the incarnation. Paul doesnt argue there that these non believers must use human reasoning along with scripture in order for human reasoning to be objective (in substance) or correct. I believe that even though you are no longer necessarily Christian, you are using your intellect to search for the truth. This is an objectively good thing. God gave us our faculties to do just that. You can come to objectively correct conclusions about the universe around you without using scripture as an authority.
Since you mentioned that you want this channel to be charitable and have more resonable engagement, I also had something else to mention. I asked you a while back about your objections to Catholicism and one of your objections was about organized religion. Even though its unrelated to this video in particular I wanted to probe your brain a bit more about why you object to religion being organized or why organized religion could be perceived as negative. Also, I am glad you are encouraging healthy dialogue on this platform and being open about your struggles with consistency in the Christiam framework. Looking forward to your response!
I appreciate the space you've provided for those of us in the midst of deconstructing our faith. And to deconstruct as a public figure...wow. I can imagine the pressure. I've been deconstructing since early 2020 which led me leave my parent's church. It was tough...my step dad isn't talking to me to this day because of it. You providing this safe space is so necessary. I see you and I thank you.
your videos bring so much comfort. your question in the title of this video has been something i’ve had dissonance over for so long. thank you for talking about this with such light heartedness and honesty. i’ve enjoyed your content for years now and these videos haven’t been any different!! these topics are importantt!!!
What is your thought on the hostoricity of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
17:43 Had me weak 🤣you where definitely channeling that presupp Joe.
Great and solid video bro. (Coming from a Christian) Anyone writing you or anyone else off as simply "not having enough faith/erring on the side of reason too much" needs to read their Bible. That is a straw man argument, it's lazy, and its unbiblical.
Biblical faith is not fideism.
“Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool."
Isaiah 1:18
Ok love the convo--dropping gems for all affiliations, but joejoe where you get that jacket from
As someone who recently went through their own deconstruction journey… and come out with conclusions that satisfy my lived experiences… I have to give it to you. You made some very valid points in this one.
Wishing you all the best as you navigate your way through the world.
Hey. I watch almost every video. I am on the same journey. I haven’t come out publicly or even to my family. But the people who are closest to me know. I appreciate this channel very much. Keep going. Especially if you feel called to do so. I’m listening.
thank you. welcome here. 🫶🏽
Been loving the content lately very thought-provoking and helpful for those with faith and those who are secular. Curious about a desire you had a minute ago while listening to the podcast when you said something like you wanted desperately to believe. What did you think genuine belief/faith looked like regularly? I don't know if you have answered this question already, but I felt the desire to ask. I have fallen victim to unrealistic expectations of what faith looks like for myself based on my community, those around me, and the spiritual leaders I learn from. I don't know you like that, so all I have is assumptions that I try to hold with charity.
Love to see you doing well Joe! Definitely have been waiting for your next video! Hope you have an awesome New Year.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: Isaiah 1:18 God uses our intellect
amen
How many friends are you friends with now that you used to be friends with when you were still a Christian?
“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me-watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.”
Matthew 11:28-30 MSG
😐😒😕🙄😊 k
Y'all leave him alone let him continue on his journey. 😭 i still care about you Joe. Im so sad about this... but people gotta let you have your space and journey.
I can’t remember if i’ve commented before BUUUT, thank you Joe. Thank you for all of your insight and transparency.
I don’t know if you’ll ever do another Q&A but throughout your life, how did you come to terms with knowing that no one will ever understand you better then yourself? And did the christian ver. of this question (Nobody knows you better then God/Jesus/Creator etc) ever bother/upset you.
Appreciate you and everything that you do 🙏🏼.
💯% Agree. Although I kind of feel as if two conversations are being had here. Reason & Intellect vs. Logic, which would speak to both sides of the coin, bridge the gap in this. But again, interesting as ever... Nice one, cheers!
The Tyranny of "Or" and the Genius of "And."
I love what you said about being on a spectrum. I've always felt this way. Love your argument on intellect and why it's necessary to interpret, communicate, and understand scriptures.
The example of using kids stories vs King James bible is true. The same way we wouldn't feed a baby steak. There's stages in how we ought to process information and gain intellect.
My wife asked if I would've believed in any other religion if I was born to it, I simply said, highly likely. Though this might seem a bit lazy on my end and it is. At the same time, I am content with where I am and what I was dealt.
I'm still a Christian AND still have my doubts. At best, I do believe that Christian values have the best interests of humanity as a society. Though again, I still have doubts for certain things.
For myself the issue is placing intellect or knowledge on the throne vs my Faith. I will never know everything and I became more accepting of that as I aged.
Appreciate your honesty and conversation! Would love to hear a spoken word piece about where you are in life!☺️
The need to be right - that's shame - even in the Garden of Eden. I honestly still grieve about this for myself.... and when I see how some are still living under this lie being sold as Truth. I'm legit upset and angry... Why should I care, really? I care that people are hoodwinked...the veil that's supposed to be torn is still intact if people are still arguing about the right way to have access to God.
Advice for someone who is trying all their might to keep Christianity? Yet doesn’t want to let go unless they know for certain it isn’t true really relate with your story but have so many ties with the Christian faith that it makes it hard to face doubt as doubt or the devil Thanks Joe
Bro I still believe, but appreciate you sharing your psychological battle through it😔
If God is found somewhere beyond human intellect, ya'll must be referring to meditation because that's the only state where I am purposefully trying not to think/quiet the thinking mind. Even when i'm praying I'm thinking about what I am saying. So for the people saying "don't use too much intellect" - what are you using when you're not using your intellect?
It is sad that people argue intellect as a reason for losing faith... As a theologian I still search for God daily through my intellect instead of a feeling... Because knowledge won't fail you but emotions do...
I would emplore Christianity as a fellow brother of the faith to look for God in all things... Intellect even more so, because a deeper faith based on intellectual understanding is much more durable... God is a constant presence in our world. Separation of both intellectual and spiritual realms is braking up every basic starting point of every author in scripture.
Love you content Joe. ❤
Thanks for sharing this one. I've been watching closely since your first announcement and I felt I was in a similar place with my faith. Very recently it has been restored because of human intellect. I discovered Cornelius Vantil and Greg Bahnsen's method of presuppositional apologetics. That has renewed me. I'd like to reason with you/hear your points of contention with the Christian worldview (instead of Christian culture) on particular theological issues. You've spoken a little about this, but I feel like you are holding back on what doctrines you regard as problematic or just not viable.
yes, very familiar with presupp. i mention it quite a bit on this channel. i took Coventantal apologetics when i briefly attended seminary. went back and read books and listened to entire seminary audio courses on it. bahsen, van til, and newer versions like john frame and james white.
it is presupp (or more sentimentally called Covenantal Apologetics) that actually made me an even more critical thinker. i say on this channel (i forget which video lol) how christian theology (which “good” presuppositional apologetics would say good apologetics should first be good theology) really introduced me more formally to philosophy- more than my intro to philosophy class in college lol. it gave me tools to question other worldviews beyond the surface.
initially i thought that presupp “renewed me” as well but i think simply the hope of being this sledge hammer of truth it offered to be renewed me for a moment. actually diving into it was a different story.
i grant that these guys are way smarter than me and maybe ultimately i just didn’t “get it”. i kept reading and studying and watching conversations around classical vs presuppositional. a lot of it made sense, and i still use versions of the thinking today. but the more questions i had, the less lucid the argument seemed to become but then eventually i was like “i shouldn’t have to be as smart as a PhD professor to be a christian” 😂 i had a few major “crises of faith” moments. taking Christian Apologetics at a reformed seminary was one of them.
@@flightsfeelings Yeah I saw that video when you mentioned presupp and it was enough to make me think I shouldn't rely on it as a silver bullet or as a christ. I haven't heard solid push back against presupp yet, but I know it's out there, as other folks I follow like Ruslan KD have said there are problems with presupp. So I'm not clinging to it for life, but having my intellect stimulated in this way about God has given some life to my spirit, which was nearly dead at one point.
And I agree, it shouldn't take an IQ of 150, multiple degrees, etc just to be a Christian. All it takes to be a Christian is knowing that you have loose ends you can not tie up, and you don't have answers to many things, but you trust anyways. That's faith. I used to pride myself on having all the answers because I read and listened to so many apologists constantly (geisler, ravi, William lane Craig, john lennox, etc). Even the chase god webisodes. Apologetics was like a drug. But then I encountered textual criticism and that shook things up. So I dug deeper and deeper and got lost somewhere in it. That's why I related to you and felt I was in a similar place spiritually.
After presupp I feel like I've seen too much. So much that I can't go back and abandon my faith again. There's still healing from feeling abandoned or misunderstood from people in my church. But I found the ability to forgive and I'm just starting to fellowship again properly.
I grew up in Chicago and my church experience there (and America in general) has always been very particular. So when you mentioned your doubts and questions having to "come back to a particular kind of Christianity" that sounded so restraining. The church I've been at the last 7 years is more of a global church (in Australia with many overseas missionaries, refugees, orthodox, Anglicans, etc.) so I felt less restrained for my doubts to return to the exact flavor of Christianity I experienced difficulty with. So I wonder if you might have had a different experience if your church were...less American for lack of a better term.
Anyways, I'm still waiting for this particular thing that has broken your faith, revealed a cognitive dissonance, or a theological inconsistency so I can see how my renewed faith stands up against it. I know it could be many things and could be hard to articulate, but I'm here for every video waiting to see.
Hey hey,
You’re worth my official first UA-cam comment!
I first discovered you via the ‘19 PIA tour in Cincinnati; I soon discovered you were worth a VIP purchase, which says a lot since I’m the frugal daughter of Julius from “Everybody Hates Chris.”
Quick thanks for:
a. Inspiring my TedTalk satire-style Corporate Banking presentation to Execs
b. “The Ocean” single-had me in a chokehold from ‘19-‘21
Quick ?:
a. Have you heard of Myles Munroe? What’s your thoughts on his Kingdom Series?
- Lex, a fellow intellectual
When I see these videos I see a man who’s trying his hardest to let Christianity go but can’t for some reason. Your so brilliant, talented and handsome. Sometimes I’m like if Joe isn’t a Christian anymore why does he feel compelled to talk about it still? It’s okay if you’re not a Christian anymore, we still love and support you. Not sure. Maybe this is Deconstruction Series. You don’t have to explain yourself to us Joe. Do you boo!
i’m not trying to let go of anything lol. its been let go. i tried for years to hold onto it. y’all be creating narratives. like i’ve said on my channel before, i was christian for decades literally. it was my entire world. of course i still have stuff to say about. if someone was married for 20 years and got a divorce, you think they just not gonna talk about it anymore? just because they still talk about their experience in marriage, doesn’t mean they want to go back. but they can’t act like that part of their life just didn’t happen. i’m not gonna act like that part of my life just happen. it happened, and it was a huge part of my life.
i know i don’t have* to explain anything. i want to. because it’s good for me and others.
@@flightsfeelings I hear ya loud and clear 🙏🏾❤️.
you made the point that intellect is how one interprets the bible, which is true..but i think it’s fair to say that intellect itself isn’t dependable enough when it comes to approaching such a book, since it’s so liable to vary. still i 100% agree that you can’t separate intellect from spiritual but since they’re intertwined, two sides of this spectrum exist. spiritual conclusions drawn by intellectual reasoning and intellectual conclusions drawn by spiritual guidance. without the guidance of The Holy Spirit as you read the text, the verses in the bible are merely words on a page up for any interpretation made by one’s subject intellect..resulting in one drawing a spiritual conclusion that could contradict the supernatural or literal context of the scriptures because they were promoted by intellectual reasoning in comprehension rather than spiritual guidance. this is why atheist theologians exist, why the council of Nicaea took place, and why there’s multiple denominations of christianity that disagree doctrinally. it is only The Holy Spirit aiding readers in intellectually rationalizing the text that allows for correct comprehension to take place..intellectual understanding drawn by spiritual guidance. The Holy Spirit can’t deceive you, but your intellect can..any conclusion you draw will be predicated on which one your soul lets lead. with all that being said i think we get stuck in a loop of discrepancy when we’re on one side of the spectrum more than the other.
i love your content btw, it makes me think!
Man do I feel how you feel in so many ways! Thanks for always being an open book.
I have a large youtube channel with a majority Christian audience. The Bible doesn't resonate for me in a way that it resonates for them. I've been tackling how I'm going to make that transition without sabotaging my platform. I hardly upload anymore because of it.
Many assumptions they make are quite foolish when you put on your thinking cap. But Christianity has a cult like following in itself and makes it hard to break out AND SPEAK out like you are.
I appreciate the work you're doing deeply. I followed you for the first time a couple years ago, and you were the only "Christian" musician I enjoyed. Now I realize at least 1 of my reasons why... You use your brain to critically think and realize we're all human.
No one has the answers. We're all speculating at best... Everyone else seems to understand this except for the religiously indoctrinated.
Don’t lean on your own understanding
i don’t. that’s why i read a lot.
Someone sent me a video on IG and said "Thoughts?" and i literally said verbatim, I dont have enough information to draw a conclusion.🤣
This is a GOOD word, I know it wasn’t the purpose of the video but it’s very good nonetheless 😅🤣
@thshores How did you come to the conclusion that there is no afterlife?
Also, it seems like you're holding back on the "why" you left the faith, it's seems like you're saying alot but not saying anything at the same time, I have no desire to convince you to come back, I'm just curious about the "why"...
And are you saying that there is no spiritual realm? If so, what made you come to that conclusion?
i’ve already made a whole video titled “why i left christianity”. in that video and others, i give enough “why” as i feel necessary to give at the moment. no one’s holding back. i think people like yourself are just expecting that there was one singular thing or small handful of easily explainable things that cause me to leave. but it’s not. so i just made a video that gave the general reason why.
also, where did i say i came to the conclusion that there is no afterlife? how did you come to that conclusion?
@@flightsfeelings referencing your last paragraph, you commented on one of your videos in the past saying that we are not owed an afterlife, so I was asking what makes you say that
yeah i think a lot of people, and probably the person i was responding to, move with the basic assumption that there has to be an afterlife given to us. it’s not that they believe they could ever verify if an afterlife exists, or that they’re even up for considering the possibility that it may not exist. they just assume there’s going to be an afterlife. i’ve not made any conclusive statement on that because i think that would be quite arrogant to say that i KNOW there isn’t OR that there IS an afterlife. i just don’t move around with assumption that i’m owed one, and i want to live my life in a way that doesn’t assume i’ll somehow get a fresh start just because i deeply want one.
@@flightsfeelings Okay, gotcha
Oh! Let me wait 'til I can listen to this without distraction.
I think you are missing Christianity though because in this video it sounds like you preaching 😂😂🔥even the way you quoting those Verses, i believe you gonna ultimately come back to Jesus
no one’s missing christianity. i studied and preached for years so it’s not like it just leaves you. also, i had such a christian worldview approach because i’m trying to show that even form the christian perspective this is wrong thinking. but my personal approach to this is much broader and probably way more critical.
Propitiation
lol i put the word on the screen
@@flightsfeelings ah. I'm audio only most the time 🤦🏾♂️